Guest Joe Compton
Substack, Apple, Spotify, YouTube, Amazon
joe: [00:00:00] Hey, welcome back to the Rabbit Hole of Research down here in the basement studio, staying warm and cozy. You’ve got me, Joe. Yeah, I got Nick. We’ve got Nick
Geo: Georgia,
joe: we’ve got Georgia. And on this very lovely episode, we have a special guest here. You wanna introduce yourself to the fans.
Joe_C: Hi, I’m Joe Compton. I I’m an independent author, independent filmmaker, and I run a network called Go Indie Now, which is supports independent artists of all art forms by running seasonal, weekly, monthly, yearly shows.
joe: Yeah,
Nick: very cool.
joe: That’s how Joe and I, we first met. had my first book come out, wait, WIll You Still Love Me If I Become Someone Else?. And through the publisher, connected with Joe and known him and we actually met in person last year at Dragoncon. And it was the first time [00:01:00] it was, yeah, we’re at the bar and I’m like, I think I know you. yeah. It was really fun. But
Nick: Hey Joe, I have a question for you.
Joe_C: Sure.
joe: What’s Joe,
Nick: both of ’em.
joe: love
Nick: baby. Don’t hurt me. Don’t hurt me no more.
joe: Yeah, that’s what we’re here to talk
Nick: about hurting me or about love. Oh,
joe: love. And maybe hurting you. Depends on what you
Yeah.
Joe_C: It goes around right.
joe: So have my little monologue. Open us up here. You know you guys, I know you love it.
Nick: Love, love the
joe: love it. You love the
Nick: Love the monologues.
joe: So love is chemistry. Hormones like dopamine, vasopressin, endorphins
causing neural circuits to fire and predictable patterns. Just chemistry influencing a biological system older than civilization.
And somehow knowing that makes it worse, because if love is just biology and chemistry, then why does it [00:02:00] feel transcendent? Why do we allow it to reorganize our priorities? Rewrite our memories and otherwise rational minds to abandon safety, logic, and self-interest. We call it romance destiny, soulmates, but strip away the poetry and love looks less like magic and more like a protocol and uncontrollable mechanism that can override our own individual wants for the needs of others. And here’s the kicker. Our brains don’t actually care if love. The biological response is mutual.
And at some level, our brains don’t care, even if it’s real. Is this why it scales so easily into fandoms and cults, scripted into rom-coms and myths if it’s just a perfect blend of hormones and culture? Then what’s love really got to do with it? Everything. Or is it just a secondhand emotion?
Nick: got to
do with it?
joe: A little Tina Turner there.
I
Geo: love
Nick: it.
Love it.
joe: Yeah. The late great Tina Turner. So yeah, so we’re here if [00:03:00] you having guests to talk about
Nick: right in time for Valentine’s.
joe: In time. That’s right. So yeah, idol worship, all that kind of stuff. We have award season’s gonna be coming up.
Nick: So why is love such a big it, how did it become such a chemical reaction in the body to make it like, oh, it feels more than that?
joe: Yeah, so the biological roots like I said predate humans. Probably earliest evolutionary about 300 million years ago, you start seeing proto attachment behavior and birds like albatrosses, swans. So these animals can actually mate for life.
And so they have these attachments that happen and they go territory defense. So that’s part of this whole thing. Being the defensive and protecting what’s yours is part of that love that you’re gonna guard somebody else. You’re gonna guard just not territory, but the things in your territory
Geo: and those that are related to you and those ’cause you’re trying to [00:04:00] get your
Nick: offspring to continue on.
Your bloodline to live on.
Geo: Yes.
joe: And it’s interesting ’cause in that same vein you would imagine, an evolutionary strategy is to actually propagate wide and far. So instead of being monogamous, you would.
Be polygamous and go out and spread your DNA to whoever and whomever would be willing to accept your DNA,
Joe_C: Most animals are like that,
aren’t they? Most of them don’t, they don’t have an attachment. Like we’ve made an attachment
to,
joe: That’s right.
Joe_C: Monogamy at least.
joe: yep. Very few. You start thinking about, especially even in primates they, they will, there are species of primate that will our closest evolutionary kind of relatives that will do that. So that was that was probably, very human, but the hormones and things like that, that, correspond that chemistry, go
Joe_C: gotta think about organisms too and have began, amoebas and they talk about finding little. Traces of organisms on Mars that keep [00:05:00] growing and growing every time they look because they re reproduce, they connect. And how do they connect? Love is obviously what we deem as a feeling or a thought, but it could also just be that cycle of reproduction that creates other life and continues that cycle forward.
joe: So I want to say I don’t think we found life on other planets, so there’s no, no evidence of life on Mars. So I’m gonna throw that in there. But just to make sure to folks listening don’t think we’re having some breakthrough science here.
figured that
Nick: that out yet.
joe: We haven’t found life
Geo: I thought they found some
Joe_C: We’ve had traces though of things that might be
joe: They had,
Geo: I thought there was organisms in some of the water on
joe: They haven’t found that. No, not yet. No. So we’re probing, but yeah, we found some of the amino acid or the precursors to what we define as life on Earth.
So those things have been found extraterrestrial. But [00:06:00] the actual, a life form, as we define life as self-replicating, self-contained organism has not been discovered. In they, they found worlds or planets, which may contain water, which we feel would be the easiest way to form life. But we
Geo: done Okay, so no.
Joe_C: Also, planets that mimic our distance from the sun to their star that we would assume.
joe: Yeah. The goldilock zone. So you gotta be some perfect distance away from the sun. If you’re too close, you’re too hot to sustain life, and if you’re too far away, you’re too cold. So really, you called it the goldilock zone. So Earth
Geo: is it more or less looking for
Extreme
of,
joe: he could.
Nick: All right.
joe: go.
Nick: It’s a new season, Georgia, come on.
joe: I think you’re absolutely right. So extremo files would be what we potentially might find first. Like you could have things that live in extreme environmental conditions and we could see those and get those, but that means we have to go there.
[00:07:00] ’cause there probably would be microscopic and, or very simple life.
Not maybe complex. So it’s gonna be, it’s gonna be a balanced there, but that’s,
Geo: I guess that’s, I was gonna say, that’s probably a different rabbit hole,
joe: I was gonna say like reproduction and love, I think I separate the two, right?
Because I think one is in our biology and you don’t necessarily need love to have replication,
So,
Geo: also
joe: I don’t think you need the two. and also we aren’t necessarily, love is very broad and it’s not necessarily a romantic love.
Nick: There’s different types of love, Like you classifying them in the least scientific way possible. We have oh, I love this chicken sandwich, right? I’m not gonna do. Dirty
joe: I don’t know what you’re doing with your chicken sandwiches. That’s so different.
Nick: Listen, just gonna miss my mouth for a good chunk of it. But, gonna
Geo: So there’s love and then there’s like [00:08:00] admiring something, or what’s the other, like appreciating,
joe: I mean I was doing some research for this.
I realize in ancient Greece they had about six or so love categories. And they defined love, the eros, the phila. The sage, the aga Pragma, the Phil Wata. Phil Phila.
Nick: Actually these were all on my list too. But you want go ahead and
joe: no,
Geo: Go for it. Go
Nick: and define these for everyone else.
joe: So you had like passionate, romantic, sexual desire, love, deep friendship, brotherly love, familiar affection, natural bond love, unconditional, selfless, divine love, longstanding practical love, and then self-love, were healthy versus narcissistic love in there.
Nick: That’s the one I go in the opposite direction. I go Self-hate.
joe: lead. Oh my gosh, that’s a different episode also.
Geo: gosh.
joe: but yeah, you had, so they did separate these different forms of love because I think they, they are important to separate because you [00:09:00] do love things differently. And then, we just have one word that groups it all together and,
Joe_C: My curiosity about that is did they classify certain groups to have certain types of love?
Because a lot of that is class system that
had during that time period were upper class a little, have a different type of love versus the lower
joe: Yeah. Or were they allowed to love in multiple categories?
Joe_C: Or were they defined by their love as well?
Nick: So they pretty much had a subscription base for your love this month. Yeah.
joe: That’s where we’re here.
Joe_C: You’re a dirty dog, so we’re gonna put you right here in this category and you’re, this is your love. You are now this class.
joe: Yeah. Privilege there. And then it feels like we’re potentially swinging back that way with our good friend ai, and, and
Joe_C: The whole thing that made me think of this, the award season coming up it’s very much, there is certain classes of love that we all acknowledge as, narcissism [00:10:00] or, whatever you wanna call it, or however you view it. There’s people who watch these award shows just for the love of what they’re wearing, and things of that nature.
So the that in itself defines a class of people with a class of love.
joe: Yeah.
Joe_C: you
joe: Yeah. The one way attachment kind of thing where you’re ’cause none of these people that you see, they don’t reciprocate that no matter which category of love you wanna throw ’em in, they’re
Joe_C: no idea. You even love
Geo: Kevin Bacon just won’t write back.
I’m so sorry.
joe: Yeah.
Nick: He won’t write back.
joe: Yeah,
Geo: he
Nick: He didn’t put you on that list for a reason. Georgia.
Geo: he did appreciate the scrapbook I made him. Of all the footloose clippings I had
Nick: with you and him
in Yeah,
joe: old school You cut the heads off and you’re like glued your head on
Geo: Cut and paste.
joe: Yeah.
Nick: Georgia and Kevin forever
joe: For those out there, that’s what the scissor icon means. Cut in a little paste jar, you would have it there. Real icons I used to have up [00:11:00] there like the little floppy disk, like people oh’s. That little floppy disc mean that’s save and it’s right because it used to be,
Geo: be, but no one knows what A floppy disk.
joe: what
Joe_C: Georgia. Here you go. How old I am. I was actually my Space Prince with the Bacon Brothers because I enjoyed their music and his brother used to talk to me all the time on private chat
Geo: Very cool.
Joe_C: stuff like that. So
joe: There
Nick: Nice,
Joe_C: I never got, I don’t think I ever actually talked to Kevin Bacon, but I always talked to his brother.
So
Geo: So you were really only one degree away. Wow.
joe: Here it is. Now you’re two degrees, like you’re,
Nick: Wow. Georgia. Maybe he will look at your scrapbook.
Geo: scrap maybe
joe: maybe that’s your subject line. Two degree friends. So then that, oh, this must be someone I know. You get it there.
Geo: But
joe: Yep. No, you get that. I mean it, and it taps into that whole reward, the hormones I had mentioned. You do get that kind of thing and the dopamine hit, that’s the first kind of reward.
Oxy. Oxy, oxytocin. I was wanna say Oxycontin, but [00:12:00] that’s something different.
Nick: That’s another thing you’ll help love. It’s
Geo: probably related though, right?
joe: They
Joe_C: I don’t know if we’re going in order of how to define love too, but also the toward, toward the end of your life.
You get a dopamine hit of love. They say that a lot of people who’ve had like death experiences, and there’s a euphoria that happens at the end of your life where a light, comes in and you lose your consciousness in that, and that it’s in a loving state.
Usually they call it like a I forget the word, there’s an actual word for it, but there’s a euphoric state that you experience and they associate that with a sort of
joe: Yeah.
I was gonna just to swing back. And
oxytocin and Oxycontin are different. Ones a hormone, oxytocin is a hormone, Oxycontin is a opioid.
Oxycodine, So what does Oxy mean?
Joe_C: Oxycontin’s thing that killed Rush Limbaugh.
joe: yeah. Oh my gosh.
Geo: I’m just curious because they [00:13:00] have to be somewhat related in the, just by the word,
Nick: by the prefax.
Geo: Yeah.
Joe_C: Is it just because it has oxygen in it?
joe: Yeah, Oxy is oxygen .
Geo: No. Back to if someone is feeling this feeling right before death, is that only, has that only been recorded obviously from people who almost died?
Joe_C: it’s mostly caregivers of people who like do hospice and stuff like that. They’ve recorded people like experiencing this euphoric state where they where they wake up in wherever the, like their body is like in stasis, right? They’re the, whatever they’re going through there.
They’re comatose in a lot of respects. Or they have a very depleting disease that they can’t move anything. And all of a sudden, the last few seconds they wake up like they’re, like, they’ve been jolted with electricity and look like their normal human beings for that few seconds.
And they have usually they recorded a lot of people with smiles on their faces and just talking gibberish or talking to somebody that’s not in the [00:14:00] room kind of idea. And that, and then they, most of the caregivers regard that as this perfect, as this one state. Again, I can’t think of the name of it, but they have a name for it.
And then they know that’s the moment they’re going to die.
Geo: Oh, that’s interesting.
Nick: So isn’t that also, I’m not. I am not saying that people should try it, but isn’t that the same?
Geo: Oh, like when people
Joe_C: die.
Nick: people with like the addiction to heroin and stuff, it’s that pop of
dopamine
that gets you, it’s that close to death that you can get, which some do go
Joe_C: Yeah, it might. It might be a
joe: serotonin. Yeah. You have that dopamine
Geo: Okay. Defense
joe: kick
in. Yeah. If the pain relief, your natural pain relief system, I can imagine that when you’re close to.
Death or dying, you probably would have a burst of all sorts of hormones. Adrenaline would kick in. So you would have all this kind of experience where you would get that energetic state just because you’re, [00:15:00] your body probably trying to maintain life. And it’s let’s give it one last go and then that’s it, and you burn the system out, and that’s the end.
No, I could totally, and you’re right, people that have all sorts of feted, weird, suffocation, fetishes, things like that where they bring themselves for that release and, because then you know that we talked about the oxytocin, that kind of bonding trust kind of hormone. It’s released during certain natural times, like during childbirth.
You have a burst there. But the other one I believe is during after an orgasm, you have a boast to get these, that bonding and trust the strength in that with the partner you’re with.
Joe_C: Especially the first
joe: yeah
Joe_C: the first time
you
It’s a different feeling than any other time.
joe: I think it’s somewhere the first 12 to 18 months that kind of infatuation love binding, it lasts there, and then you, if you make it past that, then you switch over to this kind of long-term love bonding relationship.
But yeah, that whole kind of very, [00:16:00] that people describe it, that early love or young, where you first meet somebody in a
Nick: the honeymoon phase.
joe: honeymoon phase. Yeah. So you have that period, that 12 to 18 month period where that lasts. And then, you’re these hits of hormones don’t have the same response, so now you gotta build a relationship on something else other than.
The excitement of being in that relationship.
Geo: you, would
Joe_C: why I’m divorced.
joe: yeah.
Geo: But would you say these different types of love that you’re, that you feel And you said that there’s a similar hormone, there’s a similar chemical thing happening, depending you can, you know what I’m saying?
joe: Yeah. I think
Geo: throughout these different types of love and different, you mean the,
joe: The, family love, spouse love, yeah. So yeah you’re probably, I think you, you probably have two ways. One is you’re gonna have the early hits of these hormones when you first experience [00:17:00] whatever. You go, I love this thing. You’re getting the dopamine, the reward response the ox the oxytocin. Bonding kind of response. Endorphins kind of pleasure, feel good kind of response.
And probably that’s gonna flood in and you’re really gonna feel super strong about it. And then you have that period where, let’s say you got a new puppy at the beginning, you’re probably gonna have all this super excited address. Everything’s gonna kick in, and you’re gonna love this little puppy. But as that puppy starts pooping and peeing over stuff, keeping you up at night, you might go, what am I doing?
I really don’t like this puppy. And you see a lot of people, they get puppies from shelters and stuff during holidays, get it, love it. And then a few months later, they take the puppy
Geo: back. That’s just life. That’s reality.
joe: and they don’t want, and it’s it’s because of this kind of this love. You slip out of it, you go, what am I thinking?
I can’t have a little puppy. This thing is driving me nuts and
Nick: I can’t take care of another living thing. I want to go out and drink.
joe: So you can almost put that into this kind of biological response, that early love. And then you go and then, oh, hold on. [00:18:00] What am I doing like this?
Because that’s all these kind of responses. Your body’s it’s not that great. It was, so really it’s just, it is, truly this kind of chemical, hit that, that you get. So
Nick: So going slightly sci-fi with this question.
joe: sci-fi,
Nick: Can, you can, not just you, but is it possible then to go ahead and bottle up what we know as love, sell it to you and be like, oh, you open this little jar and you’re gonna be like, oh, that’s some good loving.
Geo: I think that’s,
Joe_C: Armani been trying to do it for c.
joe: yeah.
Geo: I think
joe: a love potion.
Geo: I think you were alluding to that when you were talking about people doing drugs. Yeah.
Nick: Like it, it’s, It’s as close as they’ve come to, but
joe: think you, I think that’s why you start defining things like love.
In that aspect of someone who is addicted to drugs because you elicit the same response that you get, and that’s why you need to take more and more. ’cause you do get used
Geo: it. But there are also [00:19:00] mood altering Dr. Medicines, drugs, they’re drugs also. But to help the chemistry in your brain, so that’s similar. You know what I mean?
Joe_C: Not only that, but it also is a pain response too. So you’re calling the pain and the pain keeps coming back stronger. Stronger because the pain is biting it as much as you were. Numbing the pain. And so you’re always chasing it’s the definition of the drug is you’re always chasing the, that feeling of not feeling pain anymore.
And pain comes back stronger and stronger. ’cause that’s how pain works.
joe: Yep. And especially you start hitting that, that oxytocin, that bonding hormone. If you associate that it’s not even a choice, then you can bond to something that’s. Potentially really harmful or person or situation.
Nick: Yeah, it’s that feeling, right? You get into that bad relationship with it where that love ends up being dangerous.
joe: Yeah. So really the other question to me, is there some way, which I didn’t look as I thought about it but can what, how do you remove [00:20:00] that? That’s the, and so in sci-fi, that would be like the Eternal Sunshine of a Spotless Mind, where you go in and how do we remove this attachment to this person that you’ve,
Joe_C: But even in that movie, the great lesson about that movie is that you can’t you’re erasing a lot of things that, that, you don’t want to erase because it’s attached to that. And and then you lose part of yourself in that respect. And that’s
The great message, that movie.
joe: Yep. And the other thing was that you still. Then after you erase all the memory, you go through that procedure, then you see the person, you just then start over at the honeymoon phase again, and you get, and then you build.
That was the twist. That was interesting in a movie. ’cause they re you know yeah. Sorry. It’s older than 20 years or is it?
Geo: I dunno
Nick: it is.
joe: Oof. That might
Geo: It’s close.
Joe_C: yeah. It
joe: is close. Is it? Yeah,
Geo: it’s close. But I think we saw that pre our oldest son.
joe: he just turned 21 or no, he was a, he was an
Joe_C: I believe it’s 2004 the
joe: Yep. I think you’re right. He was an
Nick: infant. Just on the
joe: Yep. He was
Geo: yeah.
joe: we made it shoo, we, that’s our rule. We don’t spoil movies [00:21:00] and are that are less than 20 years old. So more and more movies are falling in
Nick: know. It’s wild.
Geo: saw that at the theater, right? No, I’m kidding
Joe_C: that’s a great example of deconstructing love too, right? It shows a lot of the how this connected to this, to that. And then as soon as he starts erasing it, how it disconnects and then how he has to reconnect it to get to this point.
joe: Yeah.
Geo: I love this one line. And
Nick: you love it.
Geo: I love it. Yes. But I can’t now at this moment, I cannot remember what movie it’s from, but it was, it’s basically, it’s not you that I love. It’s the person that I become when I’m with you that I love. You know what I mean? It’s
joe: no,
Nick: that in the show notes, what movie that’s from.
joe: yeah. Pin those show notes.
Joe_C: One, one of my, one of my favorite, one of my favorite lines about love is in the movie contact when she’s asking him to prove how he believes in God. And he says, [00:22:00] do you love your father? And she goes, yes. He goes, prove it.
That’s my favorite lines in that
Geo: Oh, yeah.
joe: Yeah. No, and yeah, that gets into that whole. The meaning of love. And I mean it probably changes person to person and we apply some blanket term over it, but
Geo: Right. It’s like the Alaskans having all those words for different types of snow. We should have all different kinds of words for love.
joe: Yep. Yep. Your 1984 big brother, you only need one word for everything, how many ways do you need to find, shades of blue, just blue?
Geo: I guess that’s
Nick: honestly, so I was thinking about this one where I think the most grounded version of having that love that you know is bad for you is 500 Days A Summer where you hit that honeymoon phase and then you see it.
The movie itself changed the. Filter of
Geo: I’ve never seen that.
joe: I don’t think I’ve seen
Geo: I’ve never
Nick: Joseph Gordon Lovett and [00:23:00] Zoe Dechanel.
Mm-hmm. What
Geo: year was that?
Nick: That was
mid two thousands, right?
Joe_C: Yeah, probably 2008,
Nick: Yeah, somewhere.
It was an
Geo: It was. And what was the title again? 500 Days Of Summer. Okay.
Joe_C: It’s basically him trying to disprove that he loves something, basically is what he’s
joe: Interesting.
Nick: And it was just a great story where it’s like didn’t the whole thing with rose colored glasses come from that every, the red flags don’t look red and rose colored glasses where you, during that time you don’t see all the imperfections and all the problems that you have with the other person because you’re in that certain timeframe.
joe: That’s
Geo: And that gets back to
Nick: Exactly.
joe: It’s Perspective.
Geo: And
What was the other P word?
Yeah, perception. That’s
joe: 2009? Okay. Yeah.
Geo: Okay. Yep. I have to definitely check that.
joe: other, one of the opposite maybe is 50 first dates where, which you just
Joe_C: Well, he has to keep [00:24:00] proving his
joe: exactly. You keep going in and this person doesn’t remember anything. It’s a weird,
Nick: that one terrifies me too. Yeah. Like the idea of that one where the person you love loves you back, but then they constantly cannot remember
Geo: That gets into like debilitating, like Alzheimer’s and other dimensions. And
joe: yeah.
Geo: yeah.
Nick: Like how are you able to prove that I still love you after being, forget not being able to remember the day before, yeah, you have all this video, but do I’m not the same person at that point. Yeah. that you’re just not the same person.
joe: Yeah.
Yeah.
Nick: Which it’s weird to think that it’s such a dark film.
it, digging in
joe: changes and it is it was I dunno, people have seen the Apple Plus Show Plubris and it’s just, it’s interesting in that,
Nick: wait, was I supposed to watch this
joe: No.
Geo: You should [00:25:00] episode you should watch it because it’s really good. I like it. Yeah.
joe: Generally it is like a hive mind situation. And there’s some people who don’t join a hive mind. They’re incompatible for certain reasons, certain hand waving on reasons. But one interesting things there is that there’s love that happens. And I always think the how consensual is that love or the
Geo: yeah.
Like how much of it is returned? Nope.
joe: you’re making out
Joe_C: give Vince Gillian a couple seasons. I’m sure he’ll define it for you.
Usually really good at that,
Geo: I know, and I hope he can do it faster than they’re saying know, right?
joe: Yeah. We, instead of two years or whatever it’s gonna take,
Geo: Come on. same
joe: of idea, like you have people in a relationship that if they’re not aware of the relationship, then, and
Geo: and also then that
joe: it really consensual? Is it really and that’s in
fiction.
Joe_C: Or is it part of the programming?
Geo: That gets back to AI and let’s say her or something. Obviously you can have these strong feelings and this love for [00:26:00] this. non-human object, and it’s not gonna, it’s not gonna feel the same way about you because it’s not even a human. But does that
Joe_C: that, sorry, go ahead.
Geo: No, I’m just like, does that make it any less,
Joe_C: I’m thinking of the Matrix, right? And the idea that he just wanted a steak that’s he
joe: That’s right. Yeah.
Joe_C: a steak. And that, and it wasn’t real. He knew it wasn’t real, but he was like that dopamine that he got
joe: Yeah.
Joe_C: carving into that thing and eating it and that was all he wanted for turning his back on his whole group.
And basically killing them, trying to kill them with that,
joe: yeah. I also want to forget, he didn’t wanna live that reality.
Joe_C: Yeah. After, after he ate the
joe: At the stake. He was enjoying his stake. And then it’s sell those guys out. And a lady in red maybe.
Joe_C: to be fair, it was also a bourbon or scotch you wanted and then, and a cigar. And a cigar. One more
joe: I’m
Geo: sure the
joe: in red would’ve been also, that was the other but
Geo: That’s basically, ignorance is bliss, but the problem is usually then you find out, so you’re [00:27:00] not totally ignorant, but you still want the bliss, yeah,
Joe_C: That’s the whole point of Plubris isn’t it? Is it, the idea is like the bliss you want you’re chasing the bliss, but how good is the bliss
Geo: right, it’s hollow. Yeah. Yeah. And you were
joe: about
Joe_C: Maybe your, maybe you have the bliss, and I think that’s, the, thinking of what Vince Gilian, I’ve never seen the show. I don’t have Apple Plus, but I know Vince Gillian and the way he operates in terms of how he writes, and I think that’s what it’s always about the person chasing the status.
And then the status. Becomes the person and then they don’t, they either realize that they have the status and they’re better off for having it, or they think they’re better off for having it. Jason Point, Walter White
He, Heisenberg, right? He, you see the gradual shift in his demeanor and his personality, but he also, realizes, everybody around him is inferior to him because he’s [00:28:00] gotten to a different level,
right.
And so I’m curious if that’s where this show takes it. ’cause he does like to get dark,
Nick: I could a hundred percent seen that happen. Yeah.
joe: I was going, I was gonna swing back to the AI because we, it was interesting ’cause you mentioned The Matrix and you, which AI that you, Her, but I was gonna Ex Machina ’cause that was one where the AI was programmed to, because AI is programmed to be very pleasing to its human counterparts.
And so XM and I spun out on its head where, as. She became aware, it became aware that
Geo: and don’t spoil it
joe: to their advantage and you had that switch there where it wasn’t then just to please it’s human,
Going against its own programming in some way.
So I thought that was
neat Little
switch in there. So,
Joe_C: There’s also, There’s also the minority report that kind of uses AI in, in that respect as a prothetic aspect to it. And, and [00:29:00] how he fights, he fights his natural instincts as a police officer versus, depending on what the future is going to tell him.
joe: And I was gonna, another point with AI is that it kind of spins that evolution that was to go back to Joe’s point earlier with that separation of biological propagation and what are you laughing about?
Nick: In my head, I forgot our guest name was also Joe. So I was just like, oh, Joe’s just being like, back to Joe’s point. I’m like, why are you
Geo: speaking about himself in third person now.
Smart
Nick: things. Let’s go back to that.
Geo: Attention.
joe: I almost forgot my point. Yeah, that, that whole
Joe_C: Is Joe experiencing that narcissistic love we were talking about
earlier, Yeah.
Geo: This is
Nick: does that constantly, this is self
joe: here, my self-love.
Geo: So what are you saying
joe: that propagation and love are you, and I said you can separate those two.
And AI is that as you fall in love with the AI, you know that you can’t reproduce. So that’s [00:30:00] almost, that reproduction is separate from the feelings of love. These emotional attachments of love become dissociated from the actual evolutionary kind of drive that it probably started from the bonding was probably.
And evolutionary kind of way to not only procreate, but also protect and ensure that your progeny make it into the world, into the adulthood, into, sexual maturation.
Joe_C: It also removes the dopamine aspect of it too, right? Especially like a movie like Her really shows that, right? He has that
joe: That’s right.
Joe_C: but that thing can’t reciprocate it, right?
joe: Yeah. And that too. I think as
Geo: and I guess
it’s like back to perception and perspective, but it’s what your mind is doing. So does it matter
joe: right? Yeah.
Geo: if that’s in reality or not? Like basically the, it reminds me of like stress hormones and stuff.
I feel like our modern day, and I’m not sure if I’m gonna make this point [00:31:00] make sense, but like in our modern day, we get the same kind of like fight and flight over things that really aren’t that bad or dangerous, but we get those same hormones and that same stress level from those things. Do you know what I’m saying?
So it’s the same kind of thing with love, right?
joe: Yeah. I think you’re right that you can have that cycle and then like good capitalist, they’ll just sell you love, like you, your subscription to, love doctor runs out.
Then you’re, you gotta go to the dive bar and hook up with
Joe_C: I have an interesting, I have an interesting observation on that point. I go to concerts. I do a lot of concert watching and I go to concerts that have multiple acts, usually at festivals and stuff like the music festivals and things of that nature to watch one act go. I love you guys.
Thank you so much for being there and being like, this struck me when I watched the cult perform, right? He has no idea [00:32:00] who. Anybody likes him or loves him, he just goes out there and paints by numbers. The instructions he gives on stage, but then you get like a smaller band out there who’s just trying to make it or maybe has a different perspective.
They attach themselves to the audience and they are, they’re much a part of being in the audience as they are on stage. And it’s just, it struck me as interesting that there’s that distinction. The bigger bands, the bands from like the eighties tend to disconnect have been taught to disconnect themselves from they, they learn how to engage the audience,
but doing it as an exercise and not as a truth to their, to the selves.
Nick: I could totally see
that. ’cause I, when you see live music live and stuff, feeling the difference between the way the professional, like major bands react to their audience versus the smaller shows where you’re like, oh, these [00:33:00] people are truly, these artists are truly happy.
Geo: Yeah. They’re accessible and they’re, they seem more human. Although, exactly as far as I know, all the members of.
Whatever. They’re human
Nick: but their appreciation for you
Geo: there. But I wonder if that’s because of social media and in the sense that I think now, and also be, and you would really be able to speak about this because the whole idea of indie,
joe: Like
Geo: now people are realizing you don’t need to be this big mega star if you have some group of devoted fans, you know what I’m saying?
And so you really focus on that. Like you focus on that on your social media, interacting with fans and do you know what I’m saying? I think that’s just totally different model than we had before, before social media and before like
Joe_C: truth is about anything, even bands or artists who are connected to the machine, so to speak or higher, published by a Big [00:34:00] five firm or whatever you, however you define the difference between indie and not indie. The truth of the matter is that everybody has to connect with their audience.
Now, it’s part of what you were just saying, Georgia social media has become such a big part of the machine itself, that if you’re not connecting with your audience, they’re going to, they’re gonna leave you as soon as possible and go to the person that they are connecting to. And but the indies have honed that in because we are them.
We are the audience. We are the people we love. We wrote something because we loved what Ray Bradbury wrote, We, I made a film because I went and saw Raiders of the Lost Dark and saw what Steven Spielberg did. Those things are resonate with me, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that I’m connected to Steven Spielberg, right?
But I, but because I am that fan and I’m making
I wanna be with other people who are around me, who also had that love. And that’s where my independence helps me connect to the audience, because I am the audience.
joe: Yeah. And this makes [00:35:00] me a little as Dunbar’s number. It’s the idea that you can have up to, I think it’s like 150 stable relationships that you can be intimate with. And then after that it falls apart. And that’s this number. And so that connectivity that kind of getting in.
Person in person
meeting
Joe_C: Cool. So I still have 147
to go. I’m good. Alright.
joe: But that it,
Geo: it goes
joe: against the Instagram follower numbers, right? Where you have thousands of followers and this is that big band kind of idea where they, their numbers are in the millions. And so really they disassociate from that. I wonder if they just see it even in live shows, they’re not really thinking about that.
Where you go to indie groups or authors, their numbers are smaller and a lot of those people that follow them, they know, they’ve met, they’ve had interaction
Geo: with.
joe: Like we talked earlier, Joe and I, when we finally got to see each other in person. We’ve known each other for, some years now.
And then you see each other, oh, let’s get a beer, let’s have, and then you spend a couple days at the conference and we just, every day at the bar, we would have a conversation. And it was neat. It was that thing. ’cause we did have that connection and that [00:36:00] face there. So it is that
Joe_C: yeah. I, I. Yeah. There’s a band who strikes me with this is called they’re really popular right now. They’re called Turns Style. And what he’s been able to do is he’s been able to allow the audience to become part of his show. At the end of the show. They could jump on stage with him and dance with him the lead singer.
And doing that, he keeps engaged with his audience and keeps the, he keeps the distance, but he also has that dopamine it of being, feeling. And he makes them all feel, those people who jump on stage, I guarantee you, they feel like they’re part of the band. Like they have a connection to him.
Geo: That was like seeing Squirrel Nut Zippers.
joe: Yeah, that
Geo: they’re so good. And then they did, at the end of their show, they did like a New Orleans style like march out of the
joe: people.
Geo: and then pe everybody in the audience just got up and just joined in and then everybody in.
Yeah. It was like the best time was, it was so fun. The
joe: who meet and interact with their fans. You’re right, that experience, it’s almost one [00:37:00] way, but I think both get something out of it. ’cause it is nice to have someone come up and say they appreciate your work and then you get to say, I appreciate you for supporting me and my thoughts.
Go to Dale Watson. We went to see him perform and he is a, what’s this category? Trucker?
Yeah. Blue
Bluegrass folk. And so we go and in Georgia, a huge fan and I
Geo: I’d say country guy, like Crew Country. Gotta
know
joe: Dale
Joe_C: Americana, maybe
Geo: Yeah. Like
joe: that genre. And so he , travels around the tour bus and he goes and, but then after the show he does a meet and greet.
And so we went up and had his album. He was gonna sign it and then we were gonna do a selfie. And I’m I, people don’t know I’m like six five till Watson isn’t that tall. And so usually I duck down, I get in a selfie and he looks at me and he is don’t you dare duck down. You stand tall and take the selfie.
You don’t have to duck, you don’t have to come down to me. Which is really like that. That’s really cool. ’cause someone that’s, dare perform, they like, yeah, come down and, let me, I don’t want to show. But yeah, it was really it was neat. It said something about him and how he treats his fans, [00:38:00] which I think that’s gets to this, that love of the craft, the love of performing and then meeting people and you never know who these people are.
You could form a lifelong friend out of this, this brief moment that could continue or it could turn into, some creepy stalker. So that is, that’s the side of putting yourself out
Joe_C: never know.
I,
Nick: which is also another form of love.
joe: is another
Joe_C: I I had one of, I had one of my best moments being doing this. Go into now. At Dragoncon, this just this past one and two, two moments, obviously meeting Joe and then,
Geo: Oh, I
Nick: I thought that was your best one.
Joe_C: But no, I had a gentleman, I was on a panel and this young man comes up to me and he goes, I just wanted to say thank you and meet you and give you this. And he handed me his debut novel, and he said, I want you to have this because I want you to know I’ve been listening to what you guys talk about on your show and what you do, [00:39:00] and it helped me create this.
And so I wanted you to have
joe: Wow. You wanna name drop your the person
Joe_C: yeah, his name is Roland. His last name is escaping me. I can go grab his book real
quick.
joe: the Salvation Protocol. Yeah.
Geo: We had, we, we had on the
joe: Yeah
Joe_C: oh, nice. Yeah. Yeah. He came up to me, he came up to me
And he’s like right after panel and he handed
joe: Yeah. Likewise.
Joe_C: Protocol. That’s awesome.
joe: Is a real, he is. He is really awesome. He was a fun guest on there, and if you have a spot on your, one of your shows, you should grab him.
Joe_C: Yeah. Yeah. I
told
Nick: was a good
joe: person. Yeah. Yep.
Joe_C: but then he put, right after that, he walked out and he did an Instagram and he posted on his Instagram how he met me and how excited he was to beat me and that I told him I would review, read his book and review
it. And he’s like, he told me that he would review. He said he was like super excited.
Geo: That is so awesome. is so cool, man. That is a moment that I’ll never forget
that’s great.
Nick: life. Honestly, it’s glad that you were in the right, it could have been completely different if you were like, oh, no, get outta here. [00:40:00] He would’ve been like, man, don’t meet your heroes.
joe: Yeah. That’s,
Nick: man. He inspired me to write this book, and I’m gonna write another one to be like, Ooh.
joe: Know what? It’s fun.
Joe_C: I’ve fancy myself as fairly approachable,
Geo: yeah,
joe: Likewise. I, yeah. When people come up and they talk about stuff or ideas,
Geo: and the fact that you’re putting this platform out there for indie writers indie filmmakers, that goes so far,
Joe_C: yeah, you just don’t realize it too. I have had tunnel vision in that respect a little bit. I felt like the leader, I felt like the lead cigarette of the cult for a second, and realizing I didn’t have that con, that true connection, because there are a lot of people there’s a lot so the way I look at my numbers, right?
I don’t look at views or subscriptions. Those to me are arbitrary numbers that don’t matter what I look at. Is how long they’ve watched that video How much retention do I, to me retention is gold versus I would rather have 10 people who watch everything all the [00:41:00] way through that I do than have five, 500,000 views that watch one second of my video.
Me doing nothing.
And so I, and I get people who come on the live feeds and interact with me, but there are several people who watch every show who are there all the time, who never say anything on the live feeds who I have no idea even
joe: yeah.
Joe_C: But because they never have acknowledged or talked to me about that.
And so that is where I gained some tunnel vision. And Roland happened to be one of those people. So he really opened my eyes to that. And so I definitely try. Reach out. So he taught me just as much as I taught him in that one moment. Because I definitely try to now think about if I’m reaching out to somebody how, I would like to be told if I, talk to if I’m not the one interacting in the background.
Geo: Yeah. In case Kevin Bacon’s listening. No, I’m kidding.
joe: Yeah.
He gets through down.
Geo: Yeah.
joe: It is funny when you have that, those moments when,
especially don’t like the [00:42:00] podcast, like when you’re writing and stuff, people, but the podcast, there are times where we do something or a vendor show and people come up and they’re like, oh, I’ve been listening.
And it’s
Geo: oh, we love this podcast. I’m what
I’m like, what? You’ve heard of this?
joe: of this? And we have like fans like Alex who I’m gonna name Drop Alex. ’cause he comments on every
Geo: Every single one
listens. And so he is vocal about that. Like you said, there’s people who vocal and other people who aren’t.
joe: And then they’ll reach out maybe an email or something and ask a question. ’cause we do present, Handwavium on versus science facts. So people write in about things or Hey, you ever think about this? And it is neat when that happens and you don’t, but I want
Joe_C: my dopamine.
joe: I wanna get to the, Nick raised a horror thing and I do think horror is interesting and when you, especially in a mirror to, romance kind of fiction, I think horror, somewhat may get love a little more correct than, yeah.
Rom-coms a romance kind of stories and, and horror. It’s just love that, empathy, love, it just doesn’t end. [00:43:00] It’s one sided and it’s but you can almost slash your, as anything like that, you can funnel it through a love gone, wrong story.
Nick: Yeah
Joe_C: We also love to criticize in those aspects too,
Nick: Oh, the Love to Hate
Joe_C: Yeah, those a tape, but just yell at, you wanna yell at the screen when that girl goes room. Or they open Or An Evil Dead. My favorite idea of this is when they open the spell book and they, and it says, literally, do not read this out loud.
And they read it out loud. Read. It’s
Hello,
joe: I’m gonna read this
Joe_C: That’s that. And you just, and you look at the screen and you just wanna just put your hand right through the screen and go shake them and go, stop reading it out loud.
Nick: Wasn’t it in Cabin In The Woods where they were all in the cabin and what they were all about to start a certain, what is it?
joe: Didn’t see that movie ritual
Nick: and there were just pheromones going around to make you go ahead and
Do something, and then one of them would eventually do it first, and it’s just oh, [00:44:00] that’s,
Geo: PHMO.
joe: oh, pherom. yeah
Nick: they were releasing stuff into the
Geo: That, that has a lot to do with love too. All like those unconscious things.
joe: and signals looks, And I would look it up and I think the pheromones in humans is still a little
I don’t know if that’s been, yeah, maybe it’s not been, maybe just more, more recent research I’m unfamiliar with, but I can take a look at that in the show notes.
But I was gonna say, one of my favorite body horror movies to Fly Jeff Goldblum,
Nick: If
joe: you’re listening, hit us up. But yeah, no, it’s got enough. That, that whole thing about I love you no matter who you become or what you become. And at some point in that movie, even it did become one sided. I can’t think of Gina Davis’ character’s name who went back.
She knew what he was becoming, but still because she had that love for him and that, and cared. She put herself in that harm’s way. She did that thing like you were just saying that. Why are you doing that? Why are you going there? Like you, this guy
Geo: I think doing I think, and I think you alluded to this too, like doing things that you, because in the name of love
joe: [00:45:00] right?
Geo: That you shouldn’t be doing, oh yeah.
Joe_C: It’s all Tina Turner’s entire story, right? She kept going back I, and going back, even though he was the worst human being to her as possible. So
joe: yeah. But yeah, no, what’s Love got to do? It’s just a secondhand motion. But yeah, true. Love’s Kiss fantasy. What are we thinking out the hand waving him there. That’s your love potion. You were talking about Nick. He doesn’t wanna.
It’s sprayed out on
Nick: Yeah, I, yeah, I’m gonna go ahead and just put a,
joe: be your
Geo: fan,
Nick: a unit tar on and Yeah. Start shooting people with arrows of pheromones.
joe: We see our subscriber numbers go
Joe_C: Potion number nine, right?
joe: Oh, there it is. Yeah. Down on what, 34th and Vine? Is that it was that? Yeah, I think that was in Philly. That’s where that, I think that was set in Philadelphia, 34th and Vine.
But there might be a 34th and Vine in many cities, but
Nick: Just
Philly though. yeah,
just in Philly.
joe: But yeah. Love potion. That’s a talk abouts consent.
Nick: Yeah, like what, [00:46:00] we’ve seen that in so many different fiction,
Geo: right?
joe: Yeah. No, it’s a,
Geo: And
Nick: It’s something that Oh yeah. Either you could whip it up yourself or go buy it or go to a witch and they’ll put a potion together and it’s
joe: or fairy godmother, like in Shrek, and wasn’t that the love potion? Yeah.
Joe_C: When they invoke it on the young man and make him follow her around.
joe: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know
Nick: Yeah, you, where would Cupid fall on this?
joe: Waving him?
Nick: No. A fat baby flying around with arrows.
joe: think he is a baby. I think he’s just a small man.
Nick: Why is he dressed like
Joe_C: Why is, yeah, I
Nick: What is going on?
Geo: a diaper, doesn’t he?
Nick: He’s
joe: a lot of people, like in, it was like a modified Togo, right? He was like,
Nick: I’m pretty sure it was a diaper.
joe: It looked like a diaper, but it was a cloth wrappy. He didn’t, some pictures, he’s just, he’s naked. If you look at
Nick: paint, that makes it even worse. He
I
don’t want a big naked man flying around shooting.
joe: air row. Is there a horror movie called Cupid?
Nick: There should
joe: if there isn’t, we just need to get right in that. I just think we need to do anthology. That sounds like it.[00:47:00]
Nick: frontal in it too. put
joe: together.
So I don’t have enough stuff to do Cupid. Yeah, no, I think you’re right. Yeah. It’s, the arrows just full of hormones. Isolated hormones. Cupid’s really just a molecular biochemist. And he is just got, he’s just going around just shooting people with hitting them up,
Nick: trying to get the population to grow.
Joe_C: W he ox bottom. He, he is chemist by day and
cupid by night.
joe: yeah, that’s
right.
No, yeah, that’s but yeah, no, love is complicated.
Nick: So since we’re close to the Valentine’s season, why is it that chocolate and flowers and stuff are always like the, oh, this is why we’re giving like
joe: go ahead, Georgia.
Geo: Oh, I was gonna say, I could see chocolate because you do kind get a dopamine.
You
joe: do. Yeah. There was some, and
Geo: from the chocolate,
joe: think it always had an erotic connection. Chocolate, it’s difficult to [00:48:00] obtain. It was cost a lot. It was an expensive gift, I think for. and
Geo: that’s a touchy su subject. Oh, flowers
joe: I got a whole as a botanist, really? Flowers are the sexual reproductive organs of the plant.
So that’s what you’re giving. You’re giving.
Nick: So one year I messed up and I gave, so when flowers that they were allergic to
joe: that’s no good.
Nick: Yeah. That was not a fun
joe: anti cupid.
Geo: Yeah.
Nick: yeah. You’re telling me
joe: We’re gonna spend a nice evening in the
Nick: it was just like, oh, there are hives everywhere.
joe: Yeah, I know.
Oh,
Geo: Oh
joe: yeah.
No, but flowers. Yeah. I don’t, I usually don’t give flowers. I, it’s been, but that’s the reason why,
Nick: no one gives you flowers, Joe. I
joe: don’t get flowers. I don’t get flowers out because they’re at the end the dying reproductive organs of another
Geo: If you gave, have some, what if you gave preserves, you could give flowering plants.
joe: I give a flowering plant and a plant keeps living, makes new flowers. [00:49:00] Your relationship is long lasting.
Joe_C: But that goes back to the puppy thing, right? People don’t take care of the flower.
Right?
joe: yeah. That’s like any relationship. You gotta water it and tend to it.
Nick: I think we were having a conversation earlier how I can’t keep anything alive.
lucky that my child still lives, but that’s
joe: why I I just think about the,
Joe_C: I think about the pretentious woman that give, or man that you give that to, you go, oh, dirt. Thanks. Here’s a little pot of dirt. We can plant seeds in it.
joe: But yeah, but I think that’s, and then it’s all, the good capitalist that we are, it’s become tethered to holidays and flower giving cards.
Nick: You gotta give her a ring.
joe: whole
Geo: I think it all goes back to that wanting to show your appreciation and your admiration.
joe: Yeah. No,
Nick: Now what if you planted something and then cut it to give to someone? Would that be a better Hey, I [00:50:00] did this for you instead of Yeah. Purposely harvesting.
joe: I know. Just give ’em the plant.
Nick: You want me to dig something out of the ground?
joe: No, you purposely put it in a pot. Sure.
Dig it up out the ground. I don’t know what you’re doing. What kind of plants you’re
Nick: steal the plant from someone
joe: Oh, now you’re stealing
Geo: You can get, starts off a plants and then they can
joe: That’s right.
Joe_C: As someone who cut down his own Christmas tree one year, don’t do it. It’s
joe: All right,
we’re getting close to the end. Any more thoughts you got there, Joe? Not me. Joe, the other Joe. Guess Joe.
Joe_C: I thought you were queuing yourself there for a second.
joe: of thoughts. Yeah, though, man. Joe,
Nick: what notes do we have, Joe? Joe
joe: season three is just me talking to myself in the corner.
Nick: The season he loses it.
Joe_C: I just yeah I think it’s interesting because, it’s a foundational thought process that we absorb love as part of our, not only of our subculture and our livelihood, but we associate [00:51:00] that with good goodness. And, there could be obsessive love, there can be love for things that aren’t great, there’s loves for villains, there’s loves for, things of that nature.
There’s love for Dom dominating the world. I’m sure that Donald Trump, somewhere inside of him has some kind of love going on,
Nick: I thought it’s just fueled
Joe_C: love that we all wanna see. That’s very scary to a lot of us. But, and that’s the interesting thing, the word itself.
it
leads to many different ideas of what it is, but ultimately the feeling of it is interesting because that’s what we all aim for.
We all crave that in some way
joe: Yeah. Nick Georgia
Nick: I normally end this with what’s your favorite? What, whatever
joe: Love movie?
Nick: Yeah. What would, what’s your favorite love story
Or a song or
Geo: I don’t know. That’s tough to just come up with one like that.
Nick: mine I think I would have to say for me, it would [00:52:00] be the one that tears makes me cry every time is the first 15 minutes of Up.
Geo: Oh yeah.
joe: yeah. Time. That’s a good one. That
Geo: is.
Nick: matter where I am. I saw it in a dentist office once I started tearing up.
joe: Yeah. So is this what movie makes you cry?
Nick: No.
Geo: Just what are you most
Joe_C: I have to say, I have to say my, one of my favorite, this says a lot about me, but two, my two favorite love stories in movies are Annie Hall in terms of Endearment. So yeah I’m the guy who tortures himself for love, but,
joe: Yeah.
Geo: Gosh, I don’t. I don’t know if I could come up with one, but one.
Nick: You got five
Geo: Okay. Harold and Maude
joe: harold and Maude yeah.
Nick: Why? Why? When I said he got five seconds, you were able to, he
joe: seconds. Oh, Harold and Maude
Geo: that’s just
Nick: even five seconds.
Geo: just like my favorite movie period. But it is a love story, so yeah.
Yeah.
Nick: Joe
joe: yeah. A movie that I’ll go with the cry one. My Girl, [00:53:00] I don’t know why. That just always hits me, like when I could spoil it, but yeah, the ending
Nick: My Girl that was
Geo: it.
Nick: Who’s that with?
Joe_C: Kin and Anna
joe: Yeah,
Nick: Yeah, that’s what I thought, but I wasn’t a hundred
joe: no, that one.
Joe_C: Plays the husband and then Lee,
joe: Didn’t occur at the funeral. They’re funeral home owners. Workers. She’s a, does the
Geo: makeup.
joe: Mortician. Mortician. Yeah. They’re mortician. Yep. No, I liked that one. That one really hit me and stayed with me. It’s been a little bit since I watch it, but every time it’s I go, I’m not gonna cry and but yeah, I usually tear up and watch it yeah.
Nick: And there were, just aside a added bonus, Gilmore Girls that had me crying multiple times throughout the whole
joe: it? That’s a great, that’s a good one. I’m gonna say The Thing. No, I’m
Nick: Oh
yeah. I wouldn’t
joe: know
Nick: See,
Geo: that’s a love story.
Nick: relationship is a form of love. That’s
Joe_C: and I that had the conversation about the date, that review, that Carpenter revealed what the thing really was. And we talked and I had some, I had a conversation at Dragon Con about,
joe: might have, I’ll talk anytime about The [00:54:00] Thing. Yeah. So we could have
Joe_C: But Carpenter actually in an interview revealed who it truly was The Thing, and I won’t spoil it forever.
But there’s a YouTube video where he talks about it and talks about how he views who the thing
joe: The Thing is interesting, I guess to that hive mind and we had a Thing episode but we didn’t talk about love in that context. But you do
Geo: Okay.
Nick: because it’s a love monster.
It wants you to continue on with part of itself in
joe: continue, right? Yeah. It becomes you.
So then love and consent. Okay. Yeah. We’ve, yeah.
Geo: We need conversation. We need it.
Joe_C: there.
Nick: Hey, Joe, do you have anything to plug?
oh,
not you, Joe Damnit. Joe.
Joe_C: Sure. If you’re not familiar with what I do and who I am like I said, I run a a network called Go Indy. Now you can go to youtube.com at Go Indy now. And check out our, what we do we program eight to 10 hours every week.
Geo: Wow,
That’s a lot.
Joe_C: every year. Yeah, [00:55:00] we going now and yeah we cover everything independent and that’s basically what I’m plugging now. I am going to start writing more stuff and having my own stuff out there to plug eventually.
So maybe by this episode I’ll have something out, but I don’t have anything out at the current
joe: Yeah, we get in the show notes in a mini after that, and I’ll be on your 21 grams.
Joe_C: Where we’ll talk about the opposite of love. So
joe: There it is.
Joe_C: this season is about darkness and
joe: yep, that’s
Nick: Ooh.
Geo: You gotta love that.
joe: do have to love it. And people, the one character in my novel, people, Marci people either love her or more people hate her. Yeah, there’s been reviews
Geo: to hate about
joe: despise de fictional character that I wrote.
Yeah, no I, yeah, I do like a good villain.
Nick: Hell yeah.
joe: All right. I think that’s it, we can wrap up this love fest, so
Joe_C: I just gotta say, I love you all.
I love your show.
Nick: greatly
appreciate you for being with us here today, Joe.
joe: For [00:56:00]
Joe_C: for having
joe: We’ll see when the dopamine runs out.
Nick: Yeah, I
Joe_C: Yeah. Yeah. In a year I’ll it’ll turn.
joe: Yeah.
Yeah. So that’s you got me Joe,
Nick: You got Nick.
joe: We got Nick Georgia, we got Georgia
Nick: and we went down some love holes.
joe: Stay curious, stay safe and we really do love
Nick: Love you. Love you. Bye-Bye.
joe: Bye.