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Joe: [00:00:00] Hey,
welcome back to the Rabbit Hole of
nick: Research.
Joe: We’re down here in the basement studio. You have me, Joe,
nick: you got Nick again.
Georgia: Georgia,
Joe: we’ve got Georgia, and we have a special guest. Take it away,
Ben
_
Tanzer: Hey,
it’s
Ben.
Good to be back
or good to be here.
You’ll tell me in the middle of our time. Travel travails. Anyway, Ben Tanzer here
from Chicago
Author, fellow
podcaster,
college professor, Low key consultant. Dude, honored
to be a guest tonight and talk about one of my own books
’cause what could be more
self-serving than that? So thank you all
for having
6me and
I am gonna repeat this in case we lost it
before, but
I am
so jealous of that basement vibe.
and we
don’t have a
vibe, so I’m excited about
that. Appreciate it.
nick: So when was the last time he read your own book? Do you read your own
book?
Ben
_
Tanzer: I will read them after they come out,
but I’m really, not someone, it’s funny, if I was an actor, I would absolutely watch
my own movies.
For sure.
My
ego
[00:01:00] is both fragile and strong enough.
at the same breath.
But
no, I don’t necessarily go back and read my own books. So one of
the tensions
is there’s
so many books to
read.
I feel like you’re
7gonna waste time on your own book.
dude. No,
I,
haven’t,
I don’t read them often.
and I definitely haven’t read this one in a while.
so it’s fun to revisit it.
with the Three of you.
nick: Oh yeah. Yeah.
Joe: We’re
Joking a little bit ’cause we’ve had a few technical difficulties getting this episode
started all, all on
nick: the production
man, that still, I still whatever role I played in it. Lemme tell
Joe: No,
no
need to apologize. It’s
Georgia: a,
No. It’s all Joe’s fault. it’s a
nick: field.
I was blaming the imaginary sound deck.
You
Georgia: yes, fire
nick: Our production
Georgia: production manager
now.
8Joe: If anyone knows a good production manager, let us know.
Georgia: That
nick: so Joe, do you have any lists that you want to go
over?
Georgia: Yeah,
Joe: do have,
Georgia: Why don’t you introduce us to what
is this? episode? Yeah, so we be
Joe: talking about
broken futures, trauma and the human condition. And this is framed as Ben had
[00:02:00] mentioned around his novel orphans.
And so I just wanted to lay. The groundwork for kind of these words, broken fu-
tures, trauma, human condition, just so we’re all grounded, and then we can get into
our discussion again.
Future,
I put together this kind of definition as a future where progress technology, sci-
ence, economics, paradoxically degrades human dignity, e exacerbates trauma and
disintegrates social structure rather than uplifting humanity.
So I mentioned trauma. Traumas is emotional, physiological, psychological re-
sponse to an event or series of events that overwhelms an individual’s ability to cope,
leaving lasting effects on mental, emotional, and sometimes physical health and trau-
mas when something happens to you. And a part of you stays stuck there. And the hu-
man condition refers to the essential experiences, struggles, emotions, and existential
realities [00:03:00] that define human life, including birth growth, conflict, love, work,
suffering, and mortality. It’s not just our biology or culture, is a total experience of be-
9ing human across time and place. The human condition is the beautiful, terrifying, and
endless attempt to find meaning between birth and death.
Georgia: Hold on. This could be a long episode
Joe: Yes.
Georgia: Yes.
Joe: And we’re recording
now. But
yeah, I’m
gonna pause here ’cause I do have a list, but I wanna
Georgia: Oh, you have also have
a
Joe: I have a list too.
Georgia: Oh. Oh, wow. I think
Joe: prepared.
Georgia: Oh my gosh.
Joe: once
nick: Georgia,
Georgia: button,
nick: I have the
Georgia: analyst, but I think maybe we should,
Hear a little backstory
About Yeah.
You talk
Joe: orphans and how I came to this episode and getting Ben to talk about an old
book, like he knows
Georgia: not very old
10Ben
_
Tanzer: No, not so old. Anyway, yeah. There’s like,
backstory and then
nick: yeah,
Ben
Tanzer: I feel like
_
a young man. though. I don’t know what that says about,
the young men I’m raising. They’re really young men,[00:04:00]
but.
there
is Backstory and then a little extra backstory. The Backstory to the backstory
and I don’t know what you call that, backstory squared is something I was talking
briefly to
you guys about.
I
was,
I had to go on a work trip.
It was a big opportunity. but It was also something that was very important to my
boss. And at the time, one of my kids was going through a
hard time and really it was a terrible time to go away. Not that, I
didn’t think my wife could handle it.
Not that she can’t, couldn’t handle it, the idea of
leaving her to handle this by herself
and she’s go man. You’re cool.
Okay,
so I’m flying cross country
and I have a layover
out West and I call home
11just to check in and things were not going
well, and I felt sick.
Honestly felt physically sick.
It’s funny, Joe, you talk about
trauma and being stuck
on something that was traumatizing.
that phone
call and
I’m gonna use all your
key words here,
know, my wife was like, just, yeah,
Right on. And my
wife
was just like, Just go
And so there was this moment where I
thought,
should I have told my boss this isn’t something I can go do?
But [00:05:00] I also
realized I didn’t feel
like
I could do that, but that was
balanced out
by what I recognized was my own ego and my own need to go do this thing I was
asked
to do which was a big deal.
and I
12realized it
wasn’t one or the
other. It was a
both and I was embarrassed
by that. I was embarrassed
that I couldn’t talk to my boss.
and I was embarrassed that I still
wanted this. So I was thinking a lot about that and I was thinking this
would
make for an
interesting sort of
book, right? What does it mean
to need to
work, to want to work,
to have work
dictate decisions for you?
And I’ve always been
very work
oriented
and focused
and striving. So I was
carrying that idea around in my head, what does it mean to be someone who
goes away to
travel, to leave your family, to prioritize work? And then I was
out running
one night
13And I was
running along the lake and
I looked up and I don’t know what planet or star I saw because this is where I’m
very
derelict in
my larger
[00:06:00] education,
But I looked up in the sky and I thought,
wouldn’t
it be interesting if this guy who’s got this job?
that involves travel?
What
if
he had to travel to
Mars? Like what if it was really
A.
thing, not just fly to California
like I did back
and forth in
72 hours. What if it was a whole journey? And then I started thinking, wow, what if
this was like
death of a
salesman meets the Martian Chronicles. What
if you could somehow take these ideas,
It’s about work, but it’s also
about building a new universe or a new world. Could someone be,
14Speaking about the
human condition,
could someone be
caught somewhere in the middle of those things? And by the time I got home, I
could really visualize a book that I had
just been slowly
noodling on for several weeks.
Right? A guy.
who puts work before his family, but he doesn’t just go away for say, 72 hours.
Right? It’s gonna take
months
to go back.
and forth to Mars,
Even if I’m of
Joe: about nine months to get there, right?
That’s
Ben
_
Tanzer: right. Thank you. So even if [00:07:00] I’m messing
with what reality is like it’s nine months.
that seems crazy.
Stay I shortened it ’cause it’s the
future. it still has
to be
six months.
or three months, whatever it
has to be,
it’s not
15a short thing. And then I thought,
wow, there’s a whole
book here. What would that look like? And why are we going to Mars? And it’s
funny,
I don’t consider myself any more prescient than anyone else, but
authors sometimes
have those moments. And One of my ideas, which is funny
Now
and
I think it’ll seem more clear
why it’s funny
is I thought,
oh, this is rich.
People deciding to colonize,
Mars
’cause They’re done
with the Earth, right? That seemed very real to me. Now, of course, rich people,
Elon Musk,
in particular talk about that all the time. so I’m sure I heard that Somewhere,
I doubt it was an original idea, but it wasn’t like a normal part of the of conversa-
tion, and I thought this would be really
interesting.
This guy who’s never going to be rich, who’s barely keeping it together, is helping
sell this property on a planet that’s not developed yet, for rich people
so they can
abandon [00:08:00] people
16like him and his family.
Then I thought that’s a fun conflict to mess with, right?
So now you’ve got the conflict of
how do we live on
this
earth?
That gets into the dystopia.
Joe
was referring
to how, why do we have to
Cater
to the rich and how do we support
our families? Like this guy does need to support his family.
Could he do it back on earth? not clear. And then I just started playing that out. So
whatever point you all are in the book, that’s the sort of
that’s the
path I wanted to follow. The torture the human condition
of,
I need to do this, but do I really need to do this? ’cause that was my feeling.
Did I really need
to go do
what I did? So this guy’s a lot more extreme. He is going to Mars, but he is also,
the situation’s a lot more dire
for him in
terms of
cash
17flow
and he owes people money
and so there’s another dynamic. There’s a sense of violence.
and dread Over his shoulder all the time as well.
nick: he’s doing, what he, yeah, he just needs to do what he needs to do to sup-
port his way of living. And
Ben
_
Tanzer: love about that,
Nick, sorry. not [00:09:00] to cut you
off, but what I love about That
is that’s absolutely true.
And it still raises the question.
Is he
absolutely. doing? Is this The only thing
he could do, like
I frame it
like,
that’s how it feels
for him, and I
think that’s important,
but
Right. He’s doing what he has to do, but he is also choosing the most extreme way
to do,
it.
But we don’t
Georgia: I’m
sure he thinks
18Going to Mars. That’s pretty, cool. yeah
Joe: and
nick: when I was reading it I was picturing like, yeah, there could be other options,
but for him, this is the option. Like this is gonna help get as much of his debt paid so
he can keep surviving.
I don’t know if that was where you were going with it and
clearly now I can
Ben
_
Tanzer: No, I really wanted it to feel, yeah,
I wanted it
to
feel desperate
also,
It’s interesting to me
as a writer
as a thinker, as a fellow podcast or like desperation takes on so many shapes and
forms and
there’s so many layers, right? Like I had,
a gig
again, that’s what [00:10:00] prompted this.
I
was desperate for
it to go well,
but my family’s livelihood didn’t depend on it.
on the other hand,
I didn’t wanna deal with my, boss, so
I felt slightly desperate, but I also
19felt desperate with the feeling of, man, are you deserting your family and I
really didn’t want that feeling, but that’s also my own guilt and
shame.
And again, my family was fine. That’s the other
thing. Right?
My family was fine. I just thought
nick: Everyone survived.
Ben
_
Tanzer: Everyone
survived.
Not only did
Everyone survive, But they’re still all in the same apartment. I left them in all
those years everybody lives
at home again, so I know it
worked out
Joe: and I wanted to frame it a little bit and, if your story kind of takes a bent, but
the little sci-fi kind of thing, especially as we barrel towards ai,
robot automation and then maybe future thinking and getting the realm of hand
avium, cloning and replacements.
And that was where, I had the list of things to talk, in this world. Because not only
[00:11:00] maybe, in this future world, you have to do what’s best for your family, and
maybe that’s off world. But, like when, during World War ii, when the men went to the
front lines, people had to backfill in and take jobs.
So what if the backfill
or
The
20reason you can’t get a good paying job here on earth is because machines have
taken those and, or clones, can replace, you also,
Ben
_
Tanzer: Yeah, that’s that, Oh, sorry.
go ahead.
Joe: go ahead. No. Go forward it. That’s
Ben
_
Tanzer: I was definitely playing with that as well.
right? They have, even though they’re,
borderline,
I don’t think
they’re poverty stricken. they’re working
class
Their apartments
still automated. There’s still a Robot
vibe that takes
care of things and
there are robots
all
over town, because again,
you get to cut down on the workforce. The other thing I was really Interested
in around class issues,
and work.
was that there, it’s
not just, there’s no middle class,
there’s almost no
jobs that exist in the middle.
Right.
21You’re either [00:12:00] rich
and
running
Joe: you just poor.
Ben
_
Tanzer: Or you’re poor.
And I thought
that is where the country this felt
like,
this 10 years ago
to me, that’s where the country’s
heading. Last night
I got
home really late from
class and
I almost
got run down by some mechanized
delivery. thing. I don’t even know what you call those. It was zipping down the
sidewalk,
Georgia: Did it
Ben
Tanzer: 25 miles an hour.
_
Georgia: Oh, did it look? Were you walking? And then it went by you?
Joe: looked like a little rover,
Georgia: Yeah.
nick: it
Georgia: it look like a ice box or a cooler
Joe: on wheels.
22Georgia: Yeah. Like a robot Cooler.
Joe: Yeah. So our
Ben
_
Tanzer: that means Somewhere in my neighborhood.
some Delivery person did not get that gig. So it struck me that this is an interest-
ing
disparity
to explore and
then I don’t know if
you were alluding to this, Joe,
but the other thing that adds a level of tension for me in
the book
is that the guy.
When they send you away, they
Clone you
temporarily.
So not only
are,
you know
your family
not
missing and
this plays into my sitting in this airport, [00:13:00]
they not only don’t
miss you on a personal level, anything you would’ve.
done,
to
23support the family.
You’re
Someone,
some version of you is doing
Joe: And that was a was that Twilight Zone episode?
Georgia: No Remember we was that Black
mirror,
Joe: was that a Black Mirror
Georgia: Yeah,
Like more Recently there was the one where did you see the episode? Where
they’re in space together, but then it was a, was it a robot?
Yeah. They had It was a robotic. Version of themselves still at home,
I home
Joe: doing all the home stuff. And then they could download themselves
Georgia: into
the robot.
Joe: then
nick: like that
just makes it all more expensive. No.
Joe: I
guess it
nick: on the
Georgia: instead, right?
Joe: Or what, like
Georgia: that was a really good Black Mirror episode. that was,
24They’re They have that future technology bent to ’em and but you have that that
feeling there because you get into some interesting questions that in this. Zone. What
does it, if we think about that human condition, what’s it mean to love right now?
Joe: If you go off and you now have a clone, take your [00:14:00] spot or in this
black mirror where that happened. Also do you become,
Georgia: well
Joe: do you, can you fall in
love
with the clone and does the clone have
Georgia: Well, Okay.
I need to make some sort of distinction.
Now, a
clone. Is an actual human being that just has the exact same genetic
makeup.
Joe: True. Yes.
Georgia: how
I’m not, I guess I’m
trying to picture
how that works, because,
Joe: so
I don’t
know
How Ben or let’s not pick on Ben, but the, on the
nick: story,
Ben, let’s pick
on
25you
Ben
Tanzer: Oh no. Pick on
_
Ben.
Ben’s totally
Joe: yeah,
nick: I guess you’re here
yeah.
Joe: But
how was the cloning performed?
Because there George’s so a clone in particular is just a genetic copy of the origi-
nal. The problem with cloning in a way, it’s usually portrayed, and we did the cloning
episode last season. Is that the base memories of the original. Aren’t also necessarily
uploaded. So you have nature versus nurture kind of thing.
So the clone And how do you get an
Georgia: And also the clone has to
[00:15:00] then go from they’re a baby and they have to, go to be an adult.
So obviously In this situation, that’s not
plausible probably. Right.
to wait till that
Joe: waving. So
Georgia: the clone actually is like a copy that just happens at the time.
They
need it.
nick: I’m so lost on this
Ben
_
Tanzer: They, they, yeah. So my, my, I,
Joe: all the science and
26Georgia: full detail.
Ben
_
Tanzer: I did I did I mention to you guys that I was an English major and then
I went to social work school or grad school. So yeah, my science skills
Are slim,
but the way I, envisioned it was certainly
that they
bring you into the lab and
they’re creating a version of
you that’s good.
for six months or more.
And actually to your point, I’m glad you
brought this up ’cause I remember being conscious about it whether I pulled it off,
I’m gonna leave to the experts in the
room, but it’s a, g they’re using your DNA to create a copy, that’s a Genetic similar
similarity, that’s not the word I want.
But
to g [00:16:00] genetically similar and not, e not able necessarily to tell apart
though I
think
part
of the vibe is that
It’s a clone because there’s something missing, in terms of the sort of Energy or
heat or
whatever your significant other, whatever vibe they give off,
you can tell the
difference. But in
27my case, I thought it was important
that they also downloaded your memories so that the clone.
Is it necessarily looking to literally, but this is an interesting question.
Replace the person, but they can
be available
to offer solace and Conversation and nostalgia.
The question about
love is fascinating
’cause what I thought would be interesting is less that the significant
other might fall in love with the clone, but that at
a certain point, things
just start to blur that
it was less
about, falling in
love and Forgetting. that there’s a difference that I thought seemed Possible. To
me, If
you felt abandoned if you
were isolated.
And then this identical version is just
Why. think about them. We, you, we were thinking about the spouse or the part-
ner, [00:17:00] but if you have children that are younger they may not know the origi-
nal at all and become totally, in love with this replacement parent
nick: And then when you come back, like you don’t have those memories with
your child, right? You’re
like, oh, I’m sorry.
Joe: the memories back
28nick: uploaded? Do they go all right from,
Joe: January,
20, 28 when you left for Mars, you’re clone. Now we’re gonna give you all the
memories that they had and when you
came
Georgia: we don’t wanna ask every specific question about the book ’cause we
gotta read
Joe: I don’t know. Maybe this isn’t in the book. I don’t Well, but I,
he
nick: can say no spoilers
Joe: and let’s move along. Like I answered this in the
book.
Ben
_
Tanzer: spoil spoilers is good, but I
honestly, I
say this
with affection.
you all are going as far as I thought about
it but there’s definitely steps beyond.
It’s interesting, like with the children,
one
thing I
thought about, which I
just, I love
that you,
brought up children is that
one of the strengths
29of the clone, and clearly I was
projecting here
is
that the clone actually can be calmer and more patient. than [00:18:00] Maybe we
can be as a parent. That
one of the things
you’re building in
is the.
importance Of a clone bringing
sort of peace and equanimity to the house. Because again, you’ve already had this
person.
stripped away. So the
goal
And the goal of
the corporation who, the,
protagonist goes to work for, they need to keep people happy. And they need to
keep the people
at home happy. So,
part of my sense was, and again,
my own projection, right?
I was a parent of small kids
and I was terrible parent that
these people would
also have
more patience,
which is
30also nice for a significant
other. They can
be calmer. So I had this idea they would be better versions of us.
Georgia: And
then also.
Okay, so the person’s away
at Mars doing their job
and this clone
is at home. They don’t need to go to work
because, that’s right.
Because the That’s right. Other per, so then are they just at home all the time? Like
being
like almost like
a stay at home dad or whatever or mom or, however, this I’m just saying dad, be-
cause we were talking about it being a man, But but then that makes a [00:19:00]
huge difference if all of a sudden your only thing
is
to replace that person and be at home all the time.
And not
nick: they actually just hide
out in the closet.
I’m just curious
Georgia: oh, and then I don’t
expect you to an yeah.
Ben
_
Tanzer: Whatever the in-between place
is. Not quite hiding out, but yeah, no, not going to work either cleaning the
31house, chilling out,
nick: You go hang out at the
cafe.
Ben
_
Tanzer: Development.
Georgia: was gonna and I still have one more question about the clone. I’m sorry,
This
is just like, fascinating to me.
Joe: Let’s, figure it
Georgia: Is the clone a human being? It’s the clone
like
then after
the,
nick: different right
Georgia: after these six months, Do they
just like
disintegrate or, That’s what I’m saying. What’s their
Joe: agency
Georgia: and is it a human, right?
nick: The old yeller him and just take ’em out back.
Joe: Have,
nick: you
Georgia: can they be killed? If you clone
a
Joe: sheep,
right? It’s still a sheep.
Or if you have a pet and you go to
32clone it and it’s a dog, it’s still, we consider
a
Georgia: still a dog.
So
Joe: take a human. And you clone it. This becomes the ethics, and this is bioethics
1 0 1 here, [00:20:00] is that if you clone a human, then that human should have the
agency and the rights of its fellow people, right?
Georgia: Gosh. that’s
Joe: What
you would do. So yes, it
is a human,
and then you would have to make the parameters.
So if you had a disposable human, then that would be everyone agreed upon that.
In an in ben scenario, if you had a rich class. And a poor, and they just want the poor
people to go do their bidding. Then they might either a, give the clone some rights
that they can then go off and be a poor person and join a poor people group.
Or they just go, you know what, this clone, it’ll die. And it’s, it
has
Georgia: it’s like a self.
That totally is
ringing these bells which
Joe: Ding. You can ring my bell. Can’t,
Georgia: I
can’t bring it. Actually, into my
nick: for that. Don’t,
Georgia: But there’s a story I
33watched, we
watched where they
made a clone because the person was gonna have like terminal illness and die.
and then they made like a clone. But then that person ended up [00:21:00] living
But then everybody liked the clone. The clone better, Yeah yeah.
nick: That has to be harsh. Like
I don’t, have to be, I don’t,
Joe: that’s in Ben’s kind of scenario, the clone is actually much more likable.
Maybe if you’re
A-hole and you go off
and the clones like
lovable and,
a joy to be around, you
might go, you know
what?
You can stay on Mars and keep sending a paycheck because we got the sugar
daddy in the closet over here, and.
Georgia: We’re just
Ben
_
Tanzer: So now I’m gonna be very interested when one of you reaches the
end of the book and
you can tell me.
what you think Because this does play
into the ending of the book
for sure.
It also raises this question, you guys are all both saying
34it and dancing around it not dancing around it like in a cryptic way, but not know-
ing the
answer. And so I
don’t know the answer
either, but one of the things I was so intrigued by is
how
ultimately
replaceable is
everyone. And again, when you Filter it through the lens
of work.
And
I spend a ton of time thinking about work,
[00:22:00] Anyway,
In
a way
if you’re not the
boss, you’re not the
owner,
then everybody’s expendable.
And
One of the things, I’ll do my own callback, which is very self-serving.
This particular boss I
had, who I really liked. I wanna add that, if that may be unnecessary. He is not
gonna listen to this probably, but other people will,
He won’t, He won’t
for sure. I’m sure he is. Never heard a podcast, we’re
35all
expendable and there is a part Where you want to turn
down a job. And again,
this was a pretty
big job
I had at the time.
I worked in
the nonprofit universe. Let’s not confuse it with working at like CocaCola, or some-
thing.
There
was always this sense, of I could be replaced anytime. It doesn’t
matter that I, have a certain knowledge base now, or
institutional memory or there are people around the.
country who consider me
To be the expert in this area
or that area.
If the boss decides, you’re
done. And so I also
wanted to play with that
sense that
we’re all expendable. So
in this story, certainly the replacements for the people traveling
are considered expendable
until, Meaning[00:23:00]
we don’t know how long they’re going to go necessarily.
but
36the idea is when the person comes home.
The
clone
is done. and they will move the clone
Into some other,
job.
Joe: say
also if the person that goes to the Mars,
it
nick: cheaper for the company to just not send them back and,
Have it crash
Joe: Or Right. You don’t
have to
even deal with it. You go, oh, they died on Mars and, sorry. And they can just keep
working on Mars.
And I think this gets into, as we’re talking, thinking about you, you start to blurt a
line of, into slavery, right? You start you go from poor with agency to
no
agency and almost like the clones and the person sent to Mars,
I guess they’re getting a paycheck at some level, but you begin to, if you don’t
have rights to
nick: Even the company could own that spot that so it they’re not paying anyone.
They’re right. That’s right. Paying themselves. All right, cool.
Joe: It’s
Like when you go, oh,
you, you
37get $10, but you gotta [00:24:00] pay. Nine
50 to rent the apartment you live
nick: in the company, man.
So Really?
And then it’s
Joe: cents to get your feet eh, and then it’s, another
20 cents for clothes.
So you’re actually owe me,
Another hour of work.
So I think you do get
into these really
interesting a class,
nick: based outta history that you know, has already human
Joe: history. That humans aren’t
good stewards of labor and money and economics.
Georgia: or pretty much anything. But anyway
nick: let’s go with your trauma, Georgia. What trauma do you have with this one?
Georgia: But I wanna ask how are most of the
stories that you write
science fiction or
was
this something different for
you?
Do you know what I
Ben
_
Tanzer: That’s a great question. no, this is definitely
something.
38different.
I
had a moment this, when I was on this run. I wasn’t planning on writing something
science fiction, but
when I looked up and saw, and I was a voracious science fiction reader all
Georgia: All
Ben
Tanzer: All
_
through childhood, high
school, college, maybe I’ve slowed down
in adulthood.
But it was a genre I was [00:25:00] completely wrapped up in.
But this is also the first thing that I thought, let’s
try to double down and make this
science fiction.
Like
what? And
Again and again, we have authors here, I’m not the only one. You
start thinking about your own
work.
I know I was at
the time and I thought, okay, how do I do a thing?
I believe
I do well but bring some new
wrinkle to
it, Right, Or wrap it.
in a new layer. And
39maybe,
and again, some of this was excitement and some of this is the desire
to create cool stuff, which I’m always trying to do.
Things
people enjoy and react to.
And we can have conversations like this.
To me, this is very, a very
peak reason. I would try to write that kind of
book.
’cause then I,
get to talk to the three of you and I don’t have all those answers. Right. I
thought about them and took copious notes whatever.
But no. So that was
the first time I tried that.
I felt like in that case,
And I
don’t usually
traffic very much an
inspiration.
I think about the
writing, like
work, like
today we sit down, we get back to work,
We’re on this thing. But that time it [00:26:00] really,
hit me
like,
40let’s make
this feel
not feel science fiction. Let’s
remove ourselves from
this planet. and start building something else. And
so it became science fiction. And I’m thrilled because again, I
nick: and it feels so human too. Like it
Ben
_
Tanzer: good. like it is
to hear that. like a, as I said, it was the entire time I’ve been reading, I’m like, oh,
this story doesn’t have to take place here.
nick: It could take place anywhere.
Joe: Yeah.
Georgia: So the univers, The universal human. Yeah,
nick: exactly. It’s a human story that’s made sci-fi.
Georgia: And I think a lot of times people think, oh, I’m not into sci-fi ’cause
it’s This or that. And I think, no, I think it can be a very approachable Yeah.
Like relatable thing.
It’s
nick: covering something that
Is
very social forward, being like, okay, we’re gonna make this easily digestible. Not
saying that it’s, but it’s
Ben_Tanzer: dude. I
think actually to create [00:27:00] something interesting that’s digestible would
be awesome to me. I think,
that’s
41Joe: yep. just didn’t know if I was gonna be like, oh, man, I’m just insulting you.
Georgia: too. I
Joe: when a lot
of people say, because I I write in a speculative sci-fi genre mostly.
But I think when people go, I don’t like sci-fi, I think they’re thinking of hard sci-fi
and that gets bogged down. It’s like fantasy. There are fantasy novels. I get bogged
down into explaining. And I don’t wanna get in any trouble, different classes fairies
and trolls and,
And
there’s pages and pages of that, and the story kind of seems to slow down.
There’s people that really enjoy that.
nick: with all the lore
Georgia: Science, but
Joe: fiction that moves, it’s character driven, plot driven in a science that sprinkled
in there either
in a very loose way, very handwaving way, where it’s just a lab, DNA
clone, boom, I’m done. Or, myself, I
try to go a little bit more into it, but very, like the, conversational, very, bring it
down and fit it in, weave it into that.
The dialogue and through the narrative to have the world building happen. And I
[00:28:00] think that’s, I think someone who had
nick: big ideas
Joe: and it was interesting, Ben, you said you were a reader of sci-fi back in the
day and talking, I just thought about Isaac Mov and his robot series,
which really, that was the
crux of it.
42These big ideas
and the science was in there, but the big idea was that, it besides the detective, da
and their adventures and,
But it was more the society was
This kind of place where we had the classes and machines had taken over a lot of
jobs. And so people were very anti, had this luddite kind
of
attitude towards the robots that were replacing them.
And
then the robots
seemed to gain sentience, right? At some level. And it was like, how do we control
this thing? And that’s gonna replace us potentially.
And our homes and our lives. And so
that, that was ve interesting there, this kind of
the classic
example of this kind of dynamic that you are exploring.
So I tethered back
fast [00:29:00] forward a little bit, maybe early eighties Blade Runner, the dispos-
able kind of worker
disposable, when I was thinking, what
if your story reversed that you got cloned and then your clone
went off with no agency, so you got paid maybe some
sum. Oh, Ben, he’s really good at X, Y, and Z.
Georgia: Hey
Joe: can we clone you for,
A hundred k and then we’re
43sic,
gonna send your
clone off
and then your clone now has this eight no one’s written this story, I’m gonna
write it.
Ben
_
Tanzer: say, yo, this story needs
to be
Joe: you know what? Nevermind,
Ben
_
Tanzer: you are really, you are these whole series of
Comments, speak to what
I
tend to circle back to.
whether it’s conscious or not. You mentioned the human condition. The most ba-
thing
in
anything I write,
is trying to understand.
how
we, any of us
Exist day to day,
how we cope.
That somehow to me, the quotidian stuff, going to buy groceries or fighting
with your
Or, taking your
significant other to the doctor.
that Those are equally important.
44They’re important. If you can figure out how to talk,
about them, that how we work
[00:30:00] and how we’re denied
work and how we deny
ourselves things.
and that this
all plays out. And
then in this story, I just thought, there’s this sci-fi
element, right.
I’m gonna still try to do
what if Hopefully,
well, but
Can
you tell it through this different
lens? So that was really conscious and
It’s only recently that I had
another idea that is in that lens, and so I’ve
been pursuing that.
And it’s interesting early
on
And I’d never had this
reaction, before. I thought,
oh, I’ve got a sequel for
this book. And it looked like it was
going to go forward
And then
45that fell
apart for a variety
of
reasons. so I shelved it and then over the pandemic, I pulled it off the shelf.
Though Obviously
it’s a metaphorical shelf it was sitting in a file
Joe: Yeah we get
Ben
_
Tanzer: But I started thinking, okay,
That sequel thing is not going to happen, but there’s some interesting ideas. here.
So it’s only After 10 years, that I’m, working in that potentially
We’ll have to see if somebody wants the book, like in that
genre again.
But I always do come back to work and coping and,
thinking. and Yeah. sorry.
Georgia: Oh, I was gonna ask,
so as far
as bringing in the [00:31:00] science of the science fiction, how did you approach
that, since that’s not something that you typically write in, is that, did you have to do a
lot of research or?
Ben
Tanzer: So
_
that’s an
awesome question. ’cause I probably should have done More research
what I did, and in essence,
cheated a
little bit.
nick: your
46Joe: now, like at the rabbit hole of research and we
Ben
_
Tanzer: So it’s funny. Yes, I’ll be, trust me, I’ll be leveraging this relationship
next. You all are stuck with me indefinitely,
Georgia: And I think by that, Joe means himself. Okay.
Ben
Tanzer: then
_
Georgia: I
nick: don’t think they
Georgia: and I can, help you. can we?
nick: I got my take advantage of Yeah.
Ben
_
Tanzer: big brain
going
nick: part.
Georgia: We can
help you in the human condition. part. The human
nick: trauma. I got you.
Joe: Nick’s got you with coffee. It’ll keep you coffee
enough.
Ben
_
Tanzer: All right,
Joe, You,
are now officially a consultant. But what I
did Do
you know, and again, I’m always doing low key research, if I
have an
idea
especially
like
47with a scifi book or you’re thinking forward,
I’ll
look something like, I’ll have the idea first, then I’ll look it up.
[00:32:00] and see how
reasonable Has
anyone ever talked about that?
If
I had to back it up.
Could I do it’s like
You said
It’s gonna take nine months to get to Mars. So
I looked that
up at the time. I don’t remember what I looked up, but I
thought, okay, but what I
really
did which is such a cheat, is that when
I was,
excited about an early draft,
I sent it
to a friend.
of mine who’s a science
fiction And I
was like, just tell me where I’ve got it wrong.
And
that was a,
really,
48interesting He was also
at the
time
working
for a scifi, publisher. And so I was semi pitching. him, semi
picking his brain. but I really wanted
him to react.
to things and it’s funny. ‘
cause
He did react.
to whatever I had written down for how quickly you could get to Mars and he’s
just f no, whatever I said at the time. And then he gave me a number, like nine
months and I thought,
okay.
is this future enough where I can cheat and make it, three to six
months? So I was playing with all that, but
I
really had him
run.
me through The
ringer.
do you think is,
As a published guy, human, what,
Where am I
so far [00:33:00] off?
base,
49Because I was really interested in that.
Joe: Yeah. It’s really interesting when you George,
Georgia: oh, no, I’m sorry.
Joe: and I was gonna say, it is interesting when you get into.
sci-fi
and you start going down I think it’s anything if you get too far away, you’ll pull
people out of the story and they’ll go, hold on.
That doesn’t make sense. I even,
nick: like, how much of the world building do you have to add in?
Joe: I also
think like any expert topic, if I wrote in my story about coffee roasting and I was off,
I didn’t consult Nick over here and he reads the book, he would get pulled out if I
make some reference about that or something in the story.
And I think that’s always, writers have to be careful not just science, but in any top-
ic. If I’m talking about a nonprofit organization and this is what we’re gonna do. I
should talk to Ben or Georgia here who have dealt with nonprofits or organizations to
make sure that I’m not just saying something.
Totally. Because if you read it, you’ll just pull you, you’ll get pulled outta that story
and go, hold on, that’s not,
lemme look that up on Google. And [00:34:00] then,
if it’s wrong, you go forget this story. If
that’s
Georgia: And I think
nick: it’s interesting.
Georgia: yeah, people
nick: out
50Joe: listening
who write,
Talk to,
Georgia: I, that’s actually
exactly what I was gonna ask you, Joe, like, how important is it to get the science
right?
nick: See, but I don’t know, like I, if, all right, so using that is an example of you
have a coffee roaster stuff and you didn’t consult, right?
But I feel like that’s such a small percentage of people,
Georgia: right?
They’re
Joe: you, you’ll be surprised how many folks
would go back and go, I think that’s wrong. I think
it’s gonna be small.
Like
nick: a lot of that stuff is it isn’t science. Like I have all my notes and stuff, but
there’s so much human error and each person is gonna be doing it differently That.
You can make an argument for damn near anything to be able to write it down.
Joe: Yeah.
nick: Yeah. Just saying like on an argument basis, you can be like, alright, I can, I
think this is exactly how [00:35:00] I do it. I have it at a low temp and I drop it all the
way up. Or bring it all the way up, not drop
Joe: Yeah. See,
You’re already but I
nick: think
Joe: but also
51just saying that you have to have a little domain knowledge about it. Because
if you
don’t, then it,
Georgia: I guess it depends, I think it depends on how central it is to the story. If
it’s, you know what I’m saying? It’s, but
Joe: yeah, in, in terms of
like science stuff pet peeve of some shows, they get in the lab and they get like
DNA results in 10 minutes or whatever, and they solve the whole case that I go, that’s,
no, you’ve never worked in a lab.
Obviously you, you didn’t consult someone who works in a lab. It, I understand TV
time and all that,
but
it also just gives this air of did they actually consult somebody? Did they just make
this up? And I think that can pull you out of a story. That’s the only thing. Be cautious
of that will it pull you out?
Because if you’re writing a sci-fi story, the people reading it are probably into sci-fi
and they’ve
read,
As Ben said you [00:36:00] read
a
nick: on the sci-fi. So
Joe: you know, either a, you did it
wrong,
nick: or the other
Joe: authors who wrote about this did it wrong. Because under
nick: these are
52Ben
_
Tanzer: Right, right. Yeah. And and I’m like,
you
You’ve referenced Twilight Zone,
Georgia: Yay.
Ben_Tanzer: Asimov, Black Mirror. Those are all
So On some level
you’ve got, it’s like prep work, Yeah, I
think it’s prep, but You’re also
drawing on something, which
is funny.
And I’m funny. It’s just interesting, like it’s a craft tip and you all touched on it. and I
get to talk to a lot
of
authors. I’m sure you do too, and
I
also get to coach people and One thing I always say is
if you think the person’s
going to get
stuck or I’m telling you, I
feel Stuck here and distracted. If you can’t fix
it, you gotta get rid of it. And so
with science,
fiction or that this kind of, Anything,
sci-fi, the
risk is higher, but to me it applies
to
53almost anything. If there’s something that someone’s
going
to get
stuck on because
they don’t believe or agree with how you explained it. Like that TV show,
that’s something that has to be fixed and it
seems like a minor comment,
when people are trying to get novels [00:37:00] published and get
things written, but it’s not minor.
To lose people over something
small. Like when Someone
says to me, I really, I’m really sorry I read the draft, and that
paragraph
on page
12, I can’t get
through it I really enjoy The book so far. Then I need to go fix that
paragraph. It may only be one person,
but.
Off,
I don’t have that many,
readers, so
I
can’t risk losing even one. If
that person is a sample size of anything. Then, you
know, I’ve done, I’ve made a mistake,
and I’ve worked
54with authors. It’s like the flip
side of this, but it’s still interesting.
They say something they don’t realize is provocative in some way, and then I’ll
say
to them
as a coach or as a consultant
do you
wanna keep that in?
And they’ll say, why?
And I’ll say, do you understand how that reads?
they’ll say no. And I’ll say, so it’s an important point, but you either need to go
deeper, or get rid of it. ’cause leaving it like
all someone’s gonna be,
thinking are gonna,
20 pages.
Georgia: they’re gonna call you out on it. Like John, Liko recently saying, oh, I
didn’t know it’d be any big deal that I’m gonna
Ben
_
Tanzer: [00:38:00] my God, I was, I literally texted back to my son.
This is very upsetting.
He sent me the clip. I just thought, come on man.
nick: Oh, isn’t he gonna
be in Harry
Georgia: Be he’s gonna be Dumbledore. And he was
Oh, I Didn’t know anyone. Why would anyone have a problem with, that?
nick: don’t know if it’s true or not, but I heard that Pedro Pascal might be in it too.
Georgia: No, that can’t
55be
Ben
_
Tanzer: Well,
nick: And he
Ben
Tanzer: That
_
seems impossible.
nick: already talking shit about JK Rowlings too.
Ben
_
Tanzer: is probably looking for work
again.
No spoiler
alerts
Georgia: No he,
nick: I heard he is gonna be a.
Georgia: He,
The been very,
nick: Father,
Georgia: I don’t, I
nick: I
Joe: Oh, really?
Georgia: Nick, we need to do some verifying here because
Ben
_
Tanzer: Was gonna say I, need a fact
checker
nick: I don’t know.
Joe: With, put that in the show notes.
We gotta,
nick: He’s gonna look, he can
Georgia: been very vocal about
56his opinion. Anyway. We could go
on
Joe: up that I wanted to, but
Georgia: But
Joe: I
I like to explore early examples and I’ve, I found too, which is interesting about this
kind of human replacement and because I [00:39:00] thought that was just an interest
and we went down that path.
one
was in Greek, Greek myth Pygmalion,
Sculptor disillusioned with real women, sculpts a, another version
and
that the Pygmalion is, a Shaw’s play and
You have that.
But that was, that’s eight ce, so very early on.
And the other one I
had was the Goum in Jewish folklore. And that, you have this kind of replacement
of the, the humanoid and replacing the human equivalent and taking over function.
So that’s, we, and that was 16th century like Prague esque in that timeframe.
These stories of human replacement. We
think about technology and cloning and robots and
all this stuff
we’re bringing
up, but really we’ve been struggling with
Our, the almost a, a fragile sense of the human condition and our place in the nat-
ural world and our mortality that brought that up.
57Because you can extrapolate out that if you can start cloning yourself. The ultimate
goal when you think about it is that, as I get closer to death, can I clone myself and
then, re-up
[00:40:00] Get a redo
And have all of
Georgia: my base
Joe: memories and, and that,
that’s the show.
Ben
_
Tanzer: it’s interesting ’cause maybe.
Sorry, go ahead.
Joe.
got excited about
nick: Yeah, no,
Joe: I, and I was just gonna bring up that the show where we started
watching that animated one Pathon.
And,
nick: how is, that’s, it’s
Georgia: it’s really good. It’s really Good.
Joe: Good. And we started
Georgia: and don’t talk too much about that.
’cause that’s gonna lead into a different episode.
Remember?
Joe: Oh, sorry. What is there?
Okay. Nevermind. I dunno.
nick: Oh,
Georgia: remember we
58talked about the idea for another one?
Joe: okay.
I guess we did,
Georgia: actually, if
Ben
_
Tanzer: I will not allow you, if I can help it for you to ruin future episodes, but
I will say, you Keep
talking about
I
keep talking about like prep work. or, I’m, I,
grew up immersed in the golem.
of,
my dad talked the golem
All the, time. So even if I didn’t know exactly.
what’s
Georgia: Mm-hmm.
Ben
_
Tanzer: Joe, To your point,
I know what the
point is. Which is
building new versions of
ourselves, building replacement versions. Then I gotta say
for a moment
when you said you did
research also.
that I thought,
Is he gonna
name [00:41:00] drop the movie?
59Weird Science. ’cause that would be a
magical,
Georgia: You’re
Joe: science. You’re
right. That
Georgia: is,
nick: and
Georgia: and we
nick: how
Georgia: accurate weird science was. That had the science down to a t
Joe: If you’re gonna clone
people out of a Barbie doll, a bra and some underwear on your head, that’s the
way to go,
nick: That
Ben
Tanzer: I worked for them and
_
Joe: so
nick: I, I did have
Joe: thinking of, I went way
back, but early sci-fi, probably the first
people
all
agree at some level that the first sci-fi kind of story was Frankenstein, and
so
nick: that
sci-fi or is it horror?
usually considered
60Georgia: I think. I think both.
Joe: I mean I, all right, I’m, that’s
Georgia: I do
think it’s both, but I think it’s the science because you’re reanimating, like the
wasn’t, like
nick: the
Joe: horror. So I think this is considered the first sci-fi. So let’s say that, so in there,
right?
nick: Yeah.
Ben
_
Tanzer: it’s funny ’cause I was joking about
weird science, but I was wondering
if you were gonna mention Frankenstein ’cause
of course You’re [00:42:00] building
I mean it’s
a monster.
I’m
doing that with air quotes.
Joe: thunder.
Usually,
Ben
Tanzer: No. I’m thrilled. I
_
actually tracking. you
nick: got something older.
Joe: Nick
has
Ben
_
Tanzer: No, but I was tracking. Was tracking
where your brain was going. I
61Joe: I have
nick: a list of
Joe: kind of,
this historical list of kind of stories that have human replacements.
I, I
Pride myself
Georgia: I think it is really fascinating because. I don’t know. Anyway, someone
else say something ’cause I’ve lost my thought.
nick: I can say
that.
Joe: I’ll go with Irwin by Samuel Butler. And that was 1872. And the whole theme
there was that machines might evolve and surpass humans. So that’s how long ago
we’ve been thinking about a machine replacing us there and society. Then
Ben
Tanzer: in the
_
Terminator,
right?
Joe: begin, they banned the machines. So we, we, at this point in time, we kinda
have the industrial revolution working its way and, you ban you then go, let’s just ban
machines.
That way
then they’ll never replace us. They’ll never [00:43:00] overtake
us. You, we cut
it. So go back in time. And that’s, unlike the Terminator who goes back and tries to
stop John Conner from being conceived, what if the humans went back and they said,
you know what?
Let’s just forget all these machines.
62They caused us all the trouble. And so you would have this whole thing. So now
I thought it, that’s a early
example of machines. We think about these stories being relatively new. And real-
ly we’ve been, the minute machines seem to replace humans and, I, and my
list of stories
to talk about with John Henry and our struggle against the machine.
I, I do,
Georgia: And I think it’s just so important to look at how science fiction can help
us, even help us in science. You know what I’m
saying? Like we bring up these things through science fiction that and different
possibilities that maybe we haven’t thought about in our everyday life.
Do You know what I’m saying?
Yeah. I do think it’s.
it Important to like, look at these [00:44:00] things in that
sense
Joe: Yeah. No, I yes.
Georgia: And I, but I always would thought Jetsons, and having the robots and
stuff would help you and
nick: don’t care enough about robots anymore. I want flying cars. If we’re talking
about the Jetsons,
Ben
_
Tanzer: I know the Jetsons is a bummer because everything they predicted,
if you’re around
my age.
Joe: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. So you’re,
we.
Ben
_
Tanzer: That’s 40, 50 years ago. We got none of it.
63Georgia: I know And then
Joe: we’re probably,
nick: not, they’re
Georgia: have the robot robots doing the dishes or doing
the stuff that you
don’t wanna do. that’s
my whole or making things easier
Joe: AI and all that
And it’s like,
nick: we’re
stealing the fun jobs. Why don’t
Joe: write art
and no, why they do taxes and dishes and, laundry.
That’s what I want the
machine to do that I don’t have time to actually work on, work
Georgia: need to write
Joe: stuff. Yeah, no, they don’t. Yeah.
Georgia: Yeah. No, there’s
Joe: nothing
about the human condition except what we teach ’em. And that’s,
nick: and the people that are teaching them are,
Ben
_
Tanzer: but Joe, to your point, I’m not gonna elevate orphans [00:45:00]
above. Its
Primarily
pedestrian
level on that continuum.
64But what’s
fascinating is
just how long the continuum is
of people
thinking
about
what does it mean to
build replacements? What does it mean to be replaced even
when you don’t even have a
sense of technology. Going back to,
Pygmalion, you still have
this idea
we can be
replaced, And for me.
but I think you’re also touching on this to Go
sort of full circle. How
often
it doesn’t, not only intersect with domestic life, but it intersects with,
Capitalism.
and the sense that
On the good side, hey, it could do my taxes.
so
I can write.
That’s a positive if we could figure that out.
But so often it’s really abused and leveraged so that most
of us are not going to get to do the work we
65wanna do
or live
the
lives
nick: Oh a hundred percent.
Ben
Tanzer: And
_
so I
think that’s it always. One of the other
inspirations for this book, which is very not scifi. Is bartleby
The Scrivener. and I dunno if you all know
that by Melville and
when I read that
book
in
college, I don’t know a, story, it’s a story,
but it’s about a [00:46:00] guy who
decides not
to work.
A
real question
of what’s any worker’s obligation to the boss.
The first time I read it I remember thinking, there’s no debate here.
A person
got a job. They
applied for a
job, they got hired.
66The teacher, the
professor at the time was like why do we assume
you’re just supposed to
do
whatever
you’re told? to do, even when you’ve been Hired, for a job. And I don’t think I’d
ever
conceived that there was
another side to that
equation.
To me, the other side was
then you just don’t
take
that job, or
you don’t stay on that job or you find another job or you suffer.
And I still don’t think I understand
fully in my
own head where that fits, but it also fits on this continuum of things we’re talking
about, which is what are any of our obligations,
and what are our obligations
to work and bosses and the larger corporations we all feed into, and, I’ll always be
fascinated by
Joe: On that line, the maybe. ’cause it’s all, this always leads to dystopia but it
does have a contrarian kind of view. And I had some points here. I thought of
[00:47:00] maybe pluses and on to this point, Ben,
Work has historically been a source of trauma,
67For the
most part.
You can go
nick: so much trauma, alienation,
Joe: Soul sucking
death, it is just all these things we hear. So in some ways would
we
mourn its collapse, if,
Would we actually embrace
forced
leisure?
Would that bring us some sort
of
Georgia: Did you say forced leisure?
That’s
Joe: Yeah. Because all these stories,
Georgia: better start having some leisure there.
nick: Like,
I would kill for
some leisure,
Joe: Henry. I brought that up because he actually is
struggling against a machine saying that humans shouldn’t be replaced and hu-
mans can do a better job than the machine.
And he worked
harder
Georgia: and he worked himself. to
68Joe: You’re right. Some versions of the legend he killed himself defeating the ma-
chine.
So when I say forced leisure, it’s, is it something about the human condition, the
human experience that
we fall into,
as Ben was saying, we fall into line, [00:48:00] that work is part of
our
Georgia: then human condition.
There’s, but there’s so many different things that you have to tease apart in that,
because if you’re working, let’s say you’re working at.
A fast food
place
And you’re barely surviving. That’s different work than, I’m a brain surgeon and I’m
making this big difference
in the world.
Like, how much purpose are you
getting out of your work?
Joe: But if you, if with the.
person at the fast food place who now you say, okay, you’re forced into leisure.
They might be more accepting of it. So you’re saying they’ll be more accepting of
the leisure than a brain surgeon that goes, oh, the machine can do it now, so now I
can go off and play golf
Georgia: off. I think
nick: but wouldn’t that
Georgia: how much,
69nick: exercise more with art? If you have the leisure, you’re more accepting to do
the stuff that you didn’t think you would like. That’s when great things could be writ-
ten. Great. Paintings can be painted. Video games can be made.
But, or
you
Georgia: [00:49:00] or it’s
Joe: is a counter argument that.
Because you’re now not suffering. You won’t have the inspiration. You won’t be
like,
Ben,
nick: there’s other things to suffer
about. With Ben. You get the love life of suffering. You get the, there’s plenty of
suffer your
sunburn from the golf course. You know what I was
Georgia: so I’m saying like, how much of your identity is in
that work, right?
Yeah, that’s it’s like the people
that, find, they get to retire and then all of a sudden they go, wait, I don’t really
wanna do anything else.
nick: There’s so many other things I’d rather
Georgia: That’s not, how I would
feel
I would be very happy.
No, I
nick: hell, I can just sit around here and chat with you guys all
day.
70Joe: of
a sudden
this is the case
do you embrace it?
Do you and
I at forced leisure? I think, ‘
cause here example if you’re that brain surgeon, you’re gonna be forced in a
leisure, even though you might enjoy. Your profession, right? So we’re talking about
the people that might not
like
Georgia: it’s also
Joe: off the
bottom of the fry pan, but
Georgia: But it’s also
[00:50:00] totally tied
to capitalism and money, right. Yep. Yep. So there’s so many different.
Joe: Yeah.
yeah.
nick: And hell I can’t think of a job I’ve done that can’t be replaced by like a com-
puter or a robot.
It’s like everything I’ve done I know can,
so if the,
Joe: To your
point, Nick, if the machine or clones or whatever are better at the job than us hu-
mans, should we just let ’em re replace us?
Why are we stopping them, right? Or is that, is
71that
Georgia: Part of it.
nick: think
Joe: Ben has some comment. I think I saw he made
nick: a
Joe: We don’t have
video
Ben
_
Tanzer: it made me, it made me smile. The question right becomes
If they’re
better.
if we can let them replace us. If they ought to replace us.
It’s interesting
’cause you’ve taken the sort
of
positive
tack on this Joe, but Of course
there’s some
universe, everyone’s
I guess
we don’t need you at all.
And you don’t get forced leisure either. funny is
Georgia: base
nick: material.
Joe: Because
Ben_Tanzer: Yes. It’s an
interesting.
72thing and maybe it’s particularly
American [00:51:00] society.
which I think it is. When you talk about forced leisure, I was just reading some arti-
cle.
People love to always
talk about the European countries France in particular, how much the focus is on.
Yes. Work
hard, but don’t work like
they do in America.
Like we’re just not going to do that. But what’s
interesting to
me
is that this is a country where work is so completely valued And as Georgia was
talking
and overvalued,
arguably, I was thinking too,
whatever you do, whatever you aspire to, to Nick’s
point, if you could be
replaced on everything.
I
don’t know, but it’s also an interesting
discussion to me
about opportunity, certainly the character in this book
feels
that his opportunities are limited. And
You talked about trauma
73Joe, you’ve referred to
it, During this conversation. I’d
also see the characters, the protagonist
in the story
as growing up rough and
without, lacking certain
fundamental things, certain
support.
And so they’re
hustling.
And that’s another thing. right? When you’re hustling, you’re that much, [00:52:00]
you’re that
much, more
desperate to not. be. hustling. And I
thought if I, could capture some of that vibe, they
found each other, they’re holding on they have a kid, like, it’s not that they’re not
without hope,
but they’re absolutely without the possibility that they’re going
to be
able to easily take care of themselves or maybe even take care of themselves at
all.
And that I thought is fascinating.
The universe of,
forced leisure, which by
the way,
I’m totally picturing the Black Mirror episode the three of you have to write.
74I find that really
fascinating.
A.
lot of people couldn’t do
it. They wouldn’t, they wouldn’t Know what
to
do.
We haven’t
been conditioned by Society to embrace.
It reminds me of that Twilight Zone
where the guy’s a bank robbery
he gets shot.
and then he
is clearly dead.
Joe: a resident Twilight zone expert.
nick: She know, this episode, Georgia. So he goes, he turns out, he’s
Ben
Tanzer: dead
_
Joe: you’re the first
guest to point out a Twilight Zone
Ben
_
Tanzer: Oh my God.
I am obsessed. And I should say, I went to the, I went to the same high school
much later.
Rod
Serling went to my [00:53:00] high
Georgia: Wow.
Wow.
75Ben
Tanzer: I feel a level
_
of
ownership relationship. There’s this
episode where the guy gets shot?
and
Georgia: Is it set like in Old West Time or
Ben_Tanzer: No, No, no.
So This feels like,
it’s in the fifties,
but the
catch is he is
dead
And
everything is gold.
Like he he wants whatever
he wants.
he’s getting
and.
he’s
like, how did I
end up
in heaven.
This is crazy. I’m this bank robber, horrific, whatever guy.
And then he says to,
he has
A guide or a guardian angel,
76and he says, the guardian angel. Look man,
Like,
this is all too easy.
Everything’s
fun, everything’s cool, everything’s leisure. I win every hand of blackjack. All the
money’s coming my way. I gotta
get a little action. He goes, I wanna go
rob something. And the guardian
angel’s perfect, I’ll
set
that
up for you.
He’s so
when are you gonna get there? And do you need a gun? And what should the po-
lice do? And the guy’s no.
I don’t want it. Stage managed. This is a nightmare.
And then finally the guardian angel says, that’s how it works [00:54:00] here.
And then he, says, you know what? If That’s, how it works here. then I prefer to go
to hell.
And then the
angel’s like, where do you think you are?
Georgia: yeah,
Ben_Tanzer: is hell. This is your
version of hell.
There’s no excitement.
Joe: So just a quick lookup, a nice place to visit.
77nick: Hell,
Ben
Tanzer: that
_
sounds correct.
And you know you don’t know
nick: nice place to visit.
Joe: Yeah, no,
nick: that’s the
Joe: episode there used to Google machines while Ben
Ben
_
Tanzer: There you go. So, yeah, I can make Twilight Zone references
endlessly. My brother and I, not only did my brother and I
Watch every episode.
nick: seen that.
Joe: I looked at
the little picture of the episode.
And
Georgia: it’s ringing bells.
Joe: I do remember this one yet.
nick: So Georgia, when are you guys gonna start your Twilight Zone recap pod-
cast?
Georgia: Right. I love that. I will come back and be happy to stupidly talk about
Ben
_
Tanzer: every episode
I’m
Georgia: I have said that we should do an episode just on the Twilight Zone.
Joe: Yes.
nick: I think that’s just a whole new show.
Georgia: That’s true.
78nick: That’s true. But honestly, like I, it, I absolutely loved when the pandemic had
us [00:55:00] closed down. Everything was at a halt. I was thriving. It was great. De-
spite everything else around in the world, having that time of leisure, right?
Like not being able to experience like an actual vacation before that.
I loved
it. It was,
Joe: yeah.
nick: it’s like having that forced leisure. I think that would be the closest thing.
Georgia: That’s a great example. of that. We
nick: had two of that, yeah, you weren’t able to do absolutely everything you
wanted to, but you had that time off to do stuff.
Joe: Yeah, no I think you could put a positive spin on it, but
nick: Joe, would you be able to deal with that? Like a forced leisure?
Yeah. I
Joe: have
a million hobbies,
nick: Oh yeah, you do. I
forgot about
that. That probably, I, the
Joe: limitation would be, alright, the supplies I need free or do I need, they’ll keep
working for
Georgia: See that.
it always goes back to the money. You have
Joe: just if you’re saying money is of no
object, psen, you [00:56:00] would hit
the
79Georgia: you’re
talking about like science fiction and like Just totally going out. That is science fic-
tion. A world where you don’t need money.
Joe: Yeah.
We touched
nick: about, we touched on
Georgia: even,
Joe: in the economics episode. We had this, in, in that episode and we talked
about the economics of star Trek. Because that was the idea. It was a post scarcity kind
of economic kind of model, which our guests on that episode, Omron said that was,
nick: he had a lot of lot,
Joe: a
lot of hand waving problems yeah.
nick: that
was the show that pulled him out. He was like, Nope, I can’t deal with this.
Yeah,
Joe: you’re
right because you get to that point where then the economics and we talked
about on there about, usually economics is boring and you spikes it up. But it was in-
teresting because you get into that, that if you take away these things like what are,
what’s the friction in society?
What’s this economic friction? What is the movement of goods and things like
that. Because at the end of the day,
humans
80do that. That’s what we do. And, [00:57:00] time in and time out through our histo-
ry, we found a way to. Make things, commodities and some way to trade and ex-
change these things.
That could be goods. That could be products. And I think we would enjoy our
force leisure, and then we would kill all the robots and clones and that would start
some sort of war between the clones and the robots. And then we get into a termina-
tor situation or matrix
and it just won’t,
we fall.
nick: Maybe
that’s how the
Joe: started.
Maybe it, it was like forcely, Hey, you guys can leisurely do what you do. And then
the humans were like,
no we actually don’t want
that. And then the machine said we don’t need you. We’ll use it as batteries, which
is
Georgia: So would you call that a broken future?
call
Joe: a very broken
nick: future.
Joe: future.
Yeah. That’s as broken as the future can get where, the stupid machines uses as
batteries. ’cause that’s, we’re a poor energy source. Nonetheless, that’s a different
nick: radical. Wait, you’re saying I’m not a [00:58:00] good energy source?
Joe: you’re not,
81nick: Damn
Joe: pretty wasteful.
nick: Thanks, Joe.
Now my trauma’s maybe that remains unproven in the be in the
Ben
Tanzer: best
_
nick: That’s
right.
Joe: No, but yeah, ‘
you, cause you get, we’re gonna kind come to the end here, but you do have this
thing, and I just, last point and the story is that, that trauma, between, being useful, ob-
solescence and, and poverty like, which is worse, right?
That you’re now replaced in some society. So we could take Ben’s story here and
the clone can replace the human completely, or the machine can replace the human.
So you go from poor,
you
go from poor, this poverty
situation and desperate to now being replaced. So the, the trauma and all that,
amplifies.
Can we just, can you
nick: edit
Joe: out the
human trauma, right? Can you create the clone and teach them to enjoy it? Or
force [00:59:00] leisure? And then get rid of the human the next point. And that’s,
Georgia: and also there’s also a Ray Bradbury episode. Remember
the one where he made a clone and then
his wife fell in love with the clone and they put him in a box or something.
82that
Joe: Ray Bradbury or
Georgia: was
Yeah, it was a ray.
Joe: that maybe you’re right.
Georgia: Yeah.
Ben
Tanzer: I remember that.
_
episode. Right. guy’s,
Joe: go ahead. And Ben.
Ben
_
Tanzer: I may be wrong about this, but of course I, you’re talking about Twi-
light Zone again.
Georgia: It was actually Ray
Bradbury’s presents or whatever
his
Ben_Tanzer: Oh, okay. Sorry.
Joe: that presents,
Ben
_
Tanzer: thinking about a particular Twilight Zone where this guy, this very
slumpy
guy. He,
Georgia: for it.
Joe: it.
Ben
_
Tanzer: Oh,
okay. Sorry. I did what?
nick: time.
Joe: she usually
brings
83Ben
_
Tanzer: Oh, no.
Okay.
nick: though.
Joe: So
Georgia: Ben, you’re like still in the thunder here. No,
Ben
_
Tanzer: Sorry, I do not
nick: go for it. Go for it. That is beautiful. You
Joe: You can steal as much thunder as you like as a guest
Ben
_
Tanzer: This like Very schlubby dude his
wife [01:00:00] goes away
to I don’t know what we call them anymore.
She goes away to lose weight.
And while she’s
away, he
buys a robot not quite a
blowup doll or a sex doll, but like a robot.
And she’s young
and attractive
and he gets to spend this like week or two with her. And he is got someone young
who’s
Fun to look at, but also
waits on him and treats him like he’s
a hero and he is not used to any of this.
And
Then he starts thinking,
do I even need my wife to come back?
84So this
Picks up this whole,
thread tonight,
and you are like, do
I even need
her to come back. And then she
comes back and, she’s, again, this feels so, antiquated, now, I apologize. But She
comes back and she’s lost all
this weight and
or
we don’t see her,
Maybe we see her
beforehand, she’s really attractive.
And he’s
oh, maybe I overthought this.
The
robot
thing is great, but look
at my wife now.
Now I
appreciate
her.
So then he
Starts getting into some weird,
exchange with Her and he is I was gonna
replace you.
85but now I don’t need to.
And Then she’s you’re gonna replace me.
And then she reaches behind his neck and she [01:01:00] turns off his switch
He had once been a young, attractive
robot,
and he had grown into this slovenly, middle aged dude, robot and she replaces
him. And then she pulls a younger robot out of a box,
and now she’s gonna live her best life. She was always the only human in the mix.
Georgia: That
is awesome.
And I can’t say I even recall that episode, I know. It’s, crazy.
Joe: Ray Bradberry Marionette Inc.
Georgia: Which one?
Nette? The one that he no, Ray Brad. The one I was
Joe: you’re talking
about it’s from Illustrated man. Marionettes Inc.
And that was that one. And it was that was a story where they get the
clone
and then the wife has it, and then it’s on.
If he has the wife, the clones, more affectionate, da. And then he wants to like, he
realizes that the clone is like falling in love ’cause the wife never gets him to do what
he wants to do. So he gets to clone to do all the stuff the wife wants to do. And then
he realizes that the clone. Is falling in love with his wife not doing the job,
nick: And I’m pretty sure this was a [01:02:00] Futurama episode too. I’m
Joe: Yeah, that’s right.
nick: the amount of times that it’s oh yeah, you can just build off
86this locked in a box
Joe: like the clone eight. They like a struggle. And then he gets locked in the box
in the basement, and then it’s like that’s,
Georgia: Yeah. you
Joe: really know,
like they’re in the bedroom and you think it’s the clone kissing the wife, but you’re
unsure who actually got locked in the box.
So is that little double take
Georgia: Wow. I’m actually,
I gotta find out. That was but I have to find out what the episode is that he’s talking
about for Twilight.
Zone. Oh yeah. No, ’cause
Joe: what To look
Georgia: I gotta do Some more Twilight Zone reason. You gotta have that
Joe: the mini the mini episode that we do.
Ben
_
Tanzer: You’re gonna find out later.
I completely,
made Up and I somehow combined,
you know, Ray Bradberry with weird science with my own book,
Georgia: And it
was awesome. weird science
Joe: reference. Wow. That’s a good
Ben
_
Tanzer: sorry, one of my longtime obsessions.
nick: haven’t seen that movie in a minute. I haven’t
Joe: either. No, I
Georgia: I have to say
87this
Ben
_
Tanzer: I’m guessing it hasn’t
aged very
Joe: very well. No,
Ben
_
Tanzer: seemed appropriate.
Joe: Yeah.
It was, yeah, I know.
I doubt it aged any of those movies in that timeframe. Probably [01:03:00] not. No.
Yeah,
Ben
_
Tanzer: Maybe not. Unfortunately only unfortunate that
we grew up. At least I grew up watching
them
and caused all kinds of long-term
damage.
Joe: going
to
the theater to see where it’s iron, so Yeah. That’s Yeah. I done.
Georgia: And
Nick’s gosh, you guys are old.
Joe: No, I, I don’t, I think we’re around the same age fan.
Ben
_
Tanzer: We are I might be a little older. If I didn’t see it in the theater, that’s
only ’cause I was seeing some
other crap test. A
eighties
nick: You
gotta
88Joe: mannequin
weird science. There was a whole generation of those movies.
If people don’t know what we’re talking about.
Proceed with
Ben
_
Tanzer: Apologies. Anyone who
was born after the seventies and possibly the eighties.
Joe: Cool. What were you saying, Georgia?
Georgia: No, I was just gonna say. Actually this episode, it really wasn’t quite as
depressing as I thought it might.
be.
Joe: We made this future of
clones and robots replacing humans. Very fun.
nick: Yeah.
I’m down for it. Yeah.
Ben
Tanzer: It can be
_
fun.
Joe: leisure.
nick: and forced
Georgia: leisure.
nick: Sign
me up. I just have a
feeling that the company’s gonna end up killing me, [01:04:00] as soon as they re-
placed me,
that would
Joe: be the
Ben
_
Tanzer: it shakes out, Nick is gonna be very
89happy. And Joe, you’re gonna expect to be killed. And that’s gonna be the, that’s
where things are going to land.
George Is gonna be,
fine. The rest
nick: I’ll be watching Twilight Zone in my
Ben
_
Tanzer: There you go.
nick: Inc.
Ben
Tanzer: It.
_
Georgia: All
right.
Joe: I think
nick: Ben, where, what plugs you got?
Joe: let’s go. You got a new book coming out
or
has come do so May 6th,
Ben
_
Tanzer: so May 6th, this new book after.
Hours Scorsese Grief
and the grammar of Cinema
drops. It’s Again, it’s a partially a grief memoir
partially
film
commentary
I’m not gonna call
it film criticism again, but it’s really
a Deep
dive into sort of, into the movie after hours.
90and
how I connected to my father,
in particular, who died fairly young. But both my parents, their love of Scorsese,
but trying to use,
the movie as a lens
to
think about both
grief, but also
how we become creative people. So my father was
an [01:05:00] Artist,
fine artist, And he never. Quite got the success he wanted.
though he was acclaimed. he loved him and he’s a
wonderful artist.
This whole idea of how
did he get
in his own way, But also
when you don’t get to live a full life, who
knows what opportunities are lost, and so I thought
if I could somehow write a
book
about all that that would be cool.
And I, I threw all
kinds of.
things in just, Joe, I didn’t even know you in yet there’s lists and
there’s interviews. I
Joe: God have lists
91Ben
_
Tanzer: It’s funny to do a whole callback and pull our episode together
here. One of the first interviews,
I did for the book
it was with an
author actually, also at the
Chicago Writers Association conference, Let’s just
write Jeremy.
T.
Wilson is a good friend of mine,
And he said, this is a Frankenstein
of a book.
And I thought, okay there. it is. that’s gonna be the theme apparently. And so you
all brought that
back. I appreciate it. Apparently I’m
dabbling in
Frankenstein.
if that’s a thing.
but
Yeah.
the book’s Coming out. I’m really, I’m excited when [01:06:00] anything comes
out. I’m excited when
anyone says, oh yeah, we’d love to publish this.
That always feels like a small miracle, right?
Joe: yes.
Quick question.
nick: Do you have any pictures of your father’s art in your book or no,
92Ben
Tanzer: Not in this book. That’s an
_
awesome
question.
No, ’cause we just didn’t
Shake out like that. So now of course when I get it
reissued down the road, we’ll have to incorporate some Mike Tanzer art. Yeah.
Now that’s
seeming Like
a big problem. So Yeah. no, Not necessarily.
though. It was
funny,
I have this fantasy
where I’m
gonna do
A podcast.
where I’m gonna interview my brother. and my mom, both.
of whom I interviewed for the book, And
that we’ll talk about the influence of movies on the family
but I’ll record it.
And so I did, a, we did
a Test
run. It wasn’t intended as
a test run, but We had some technical, difficulties. but there was a moment.
where I was looking at, I was
looking at them on Zoom and
looking at my own reflection and all three of us had artwork.
93of my father’s behind us. And
that was not planned.
So
we’re in three different homes
And
we each had something over
our [01:07:00] That’s awesome.
Yeah. Can’t escape, the shadow. don’t Wanna escape. shadow, and definitely can’t
escape which great.
Don’t, so
Georgia: that makes me think of my other question.
What is your
podcast?
Ben
Tanzer: So
_
I do a podcast called
this
Podcast, Will change Your Life.
And
It is Long, it has become, it was
always
intended, but I don’t think I had any of this language.
It’s long form interviews with authors.
Certainly. I hope you all will come on and join me.
But yeah, just talk to different authors I’ve been, what I’m
proud of lately, I hadn’t really noticed it until.
My
94previous
book came.
out and this started
coming up, but the show is now in
its 16th year.
so it’s got some longit longevity long
longevity.
So, said longevity. That doesn’t sound right. Longevity,
Joe: I
Ben
_
Tanzer: doesn’t sound right. Longevity.
Joe: Yeah. I
nick: I dunno
what you’re talking
Joe: about.
Ben
_
Tanzer: you know what’s great about that? tell,
I,
could see the word in my brain,
but I could not
get my to match
nick: that’s like the microwave. I
immediately thought, [01:08:00]
yeah, this
is a word. I’m just not that bright. I
get this. No,
Georgia: but I,
Ben
_
Tanzer: I used a word in a different interview recently,
95and as soon as I said it, I thought that’s
not a word. Then I got really embarrassed
because I was speaking
to someone.
much more erudite than me. Again, I
grew up in upstate New York in the seventies.
So
my public School education.
is a little
shaky, and I
paused and
I went. I apologized. There’s no way That’s a word.
Another person said, that’s okay.
You’re on a Podcast.
You can Make up any,
words you
nick: Anywhere if you want.
Georgia: I was gonna,
Ben
Tanzer: but
_
Georgia: I like that word too. And I think may.
Ben
Tanzer: feel free to use it. You don’t even have to
_
Reference me.
It’d probably be more embarrassing if you
Joe: Yeah.
You should reference. No. Yeah. No,
Ben
_
Tanzer: then people will know how dumb your
96guests are and let’s not, add
to that or at least how dumb guest
is.
Joe: guess. And yeah, I definitely, I’d speak for myself and maybe the, my other
cohost love to be on your podcast sometime and talk about,
Ben
Tanzer: Let’s
_
make happen. ’cause I like to, you know, the other thing I do is
that I love talking to authors
especially as they have New things coming out not required. But then
I also like to filter in just getting
podcasters on.
and talking
Why They
do
what they [01:09:00] do. Like I know
what I do.
I know why I do what I do. Maybe we’ll talk
about making, get
the Three of
you. on simultaneously. That would be a
nick: yeah. absolutely.
Ben
Tanzer: we do that?
_
engineer
nick: whenever you want.
Joe: whenever you want.
97Ben_Tanzer: Okay. This summer. How about let’s just commit to it this summer.
We’ll make this
Joe: We’re
nick: A hundred percent we’re
Joe: it here
first on a rabbit hole of research.
We’re gonna
all appear
on Ben’s podcast title, the,
Ben
_
Tanzer: podcast will change your
life.
nick: will change your
life. I
thought you were forgot
first. Actually,
Georgia: especially the episode, we’re on
That’s
really gonna change. things. We won’t
Joe: talking about broken futures, trauma and human condition,
nick: Oh, I thought we were gonna dive into the trauma. We didn’t get
to dive into
Ben
_
Tanzer: I, I it’s gonna have to be trauma focused
for sure. But then we’ll find other things like forced leisure to
Joe: Yeah.
nick: Are you pro force leisure or against force leisure before we
Ben
_
Tanzer: Oh, I am, as Soon as you,
98add the phrase forced leisure, I’m in whatever it is, whether it’s forced
unforced offered.
Again, as long
as
it’s
not some larger nefarious.
plot to replace all of us.
if it’s [01:10:00] really just an option to be,
I could handle leisure.
My wife always jokes
about this, given especially how much I
work.
She’s Always oh my God,
Nobody was born
for leisure more than you.
You’ll be fine. have so much
stuff You wanna do that? Doesn’t evolve going to work.
So
yeah, Nick, you and I, man, we’re simpatico here. I’ll be fine. I will be fine.
nick: Joe pro or con force leisure.
Joe: I’m pro force. I
don’t like
forced to anything. I’m just leisure. I just love leisure. But
yeah, so if you’re gonna force me to do le
99stop doing what you do and do leisure and then Yeah. No I got things to, to fill my
time with and I’ve got country wisdom, so I’m ready for any robot apocalypse, mete-
orite, apocalypse
nick: meteorite,
Ben
_
Tanzer: All the we, we embrace all the apocalypses.
Joe: Yeah. I’m there. So yes. I’m Pro Force Leisure,
nick: Georgia.
Georgia: Yeah. You don’t even have to
ask.
me.
And I’ll say I really enjoyed the, I really enjoyed COVID.
myself.
See
Joe: the problem with COVID. I was like the, I had
this, I had the letter from the governor or whatever. I still had to [01:11:00] go in.
I was, I forget what they call
Georgia: it. Essential maybe essential
Joe: Yeah. I had to go to the lab and keep microscopes up and pivotal research,
and then I got sick with COVID.
nick: Yeah.
Georgia: What?
Joe: I didn’t have a
good COVID experience. But that’s a different story for a different podcast. But
nick: all right then. So I think
Thank you so much
Ben. Free.
100Joe: thank
Ben
_
Tanzer: man. Thanks for having
me. What a blast. You guys are awesome.
Joe: And so yeah,
you have me,
Joe here.
nick: You got Nick.
Joe: You got Nick. We’ve got Nick, we’ve got Georgia
and
we’ve got our guest Ben here who joined us
nick: and we went down some traumatic
Joe: We went
down some traumatic ho with
nick: with
Georgia: little forced leisure thrown in, forced
Joe: leisure on the other end.
Yeah. You guys stay safe out there.
nick: Bye-Bye.
Joe: We love ya.
