In this episode, researcher Josh Fisher joins the Rabbit Hole of Research to explore the eerie, fascinating world of animal swarms—from locust plagues and angry crows to science, folklore, and cinema.
In this episode of Rabbit Hole of Research, we’re joined by researcher Josh Fisher to explore the captivating, creepy, and sometimes comical world of animal swarms. From biblical plagues and Hitchcock’s The Birds to surprisingly vindictive crows, we dive deep into the science, psychology, and symbolism behind swarming behavior. We look at how swarms have appeared across history, religion, fiction, and film, uncovering the patterns that unite everything from buzzing bees to coordinated chaos in horror cinema. It’s a mix of science, storytelling, and a touch of speculation, all flying at you in this episode’s swirling dive into the natural world.
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Joe: [00:00:00] Hey, welcome back to the Rabbit Hole of Research down here in the
basement studio for another fun, exciting episode. You just have me, Joe. We’ve got
Nick over here. Georgia is taking the night off.
she
Nick: doing tonight?
Joe: I don’t know. And I’m
Nick: Do are we, wait, are we allowed to talk about what she’s currently doing or
is she gonna be, I feel like if I do, she’s gonna throw something at me.
Joe: maybe she’s watching Twilight Zone to catch up on some of those episodes.
So she
Nick: has her timely references. Yeah,
Joe: timely references, that’s right. For the mini episodes. She is always, she’ll be
back on the mini episode. Tell us what we did wrong and what we did right?
Nick: Hey Joe, I think we have a guest
Joe: We do have a guest. We’re talking animal swarms. I wanna say shwarma,
every time I say like animal
swarm.
Nick: Yeah. We’re all going for animal
Joe: we’re gonna get some, we’re gonna get some chicken shawarma. We should
be, we should have like chicken shawarma sandwiches or
3something
Nick: that was invented [00:01:00] in Marvel Avengers. That was the first time any-
one’s ever heard of
Joe: the first time anyone’s heard of it. Okay. There you go. You heard it here
on a rabbit hole of research. A hundred percent hand
Josh: I don’t know. know about Sharma, but I’m here to talk about animal swarms.
My name’s Josh. Thank you for having me on. I actually am a coworker of Joe’s, but in
past life I worked for a wildlife control company for about five to five or so years. I was
working in the field for a while and then worked in the office got a lot of fun experi-
ence working with animals.
Not so many swarms in that job,
Joe: but,
Nick: I mean, that
Josh: animals have always been an interest of.
Joe: Yeah.
Luckily you didn’t have a lot of swarms because they’re pretty
Nick: never. Great.
Joe: No.
I do have my definition to get started and a list.
Oh, you have a definition
Definition. I got definition list. Yeah, it’s it’s not an episode if I don’t two dot I think
it’s you know,
I
Nick: thought that was a new thing to this episode.
Joe: No, it’s not.
Nick: Oh, man.
4Joe: So I just wanted to give a general [00:02:00] definition and Josh correct me,
tell me if I’m wrong or whatever it’s happened before with guests. Animal swarm is, I
keep saying it’s swarm. I swarm. It’s like funny. An animal. Animal
Josh: You’re hungry, Joe.
Joe: is a large organized group of animals that move or act collectively.
Often in response to environmental clues, survival strategies or social behaviors.
Swarming typically involves self-organizing patterns where individuals follow simple
local rules that lead to complex group dynamics without centralized control.
Josh: That sounds about right to me. You know, the biggest thing that stands out
about swarm behavior to me is that it’s almost like an emergent phenomenon. You
know, it’s not just a large group of individuals acting chaotically you know, humans are
a very social, gregarious species, but we don’t really have swarm behavior in most cas-
es.
That might be something we could bring up later on, but, you know, groups
[00:03:00] of people normally act somewhat randomly and chaotically with respect to
each other, whereas. When we’re talking about animals exhibiting like a swarming be-
havior they are responding to the cues of the other individuals around them.
And so you get this kind of emergent behavior that you know is greater than the
sum of its parts in a lot of cases.
Joe: You brought up humans right off the bat, and I was just thinking about it
’cause you’re like, oh, humans don’t typically, but the one time they do is a mob kind
of mentality. If a
Josh: Yeah. Crowd dynamics get really
interesting.
Joe: Yeah. Yep.
Nick: They’re a witch. They’re a witch.
5Joe: you don’t,
Nick: yeah.
Joe: you either join the mob or you get out the way of the mob as it’s coming to-
wards you because you’re, you can’t stop it. Like it is very, it’s, it is one of those inter-
esting dynamic entities that go, that it fits more probably into, like you said, crowd dy-
namics that concerts or shows.
There was just folks doing studies on that about trying to mathematically predict
crowd dynamics [00:04:00] to make, events safer at, , ’cause you have this event, you
have, , like Lollapalooza, all these big events, all these people, and there is some, once
the nucleus starts, you can then pattern.
And so if you can have a drone or something overhead, you can catch what are
you
making
nothing.
Just
for?
Nick: the idea of trying to study a bunch of drunk people and just
Josh: I mean that just
Nick: let’s see how this works.
Josh: at a festival and, when the main act gets on stage, then you feel that crush of
the crowd as
Joe: That’s right.
Josh: push forward,
Nick: Oh,
Josh: even though there’s no space to get any
closer. go any closer. Yeah.
6Joe: just need to get as close as you possibly can. That’s where the best seat is.
Josh: yeah. and God held The person in front of you.
Yeah,
Nick: But yeah the idea of just studying all these drunk people is hilarious. I love
Joe: they don’t have to be drunk. I mean, it could be the,
Nick: if you’re at Lollapalooza, tell me how many people are not drinking heavily.
There’s all day.
Joe: There’s a few in there that, that’s
Nick: or high [00:05:00] as all get up.
Joe: I don’t know. I don’t
Josh: just a few bad actors.
Joe: yeah. Exactly. They run a very tight ship down
Nick: Yeah. I’ve never done that.
Josh: Have you been down to Grant Park when it’s around, like you’re not getting
anything in there?
Joe: That’s right. It’s, they lock it
Nick: You can’t get over the fence at
Josh: Tight security. No way.
Joe: No one’s looking the other way. It’s
Nick: think they only caught a guy with a broken leg.
Joe: I
Josh: buddy of mine, minute up.
Buddy and I went to Riot Fest when we when he turned 30 and we were laughing
that the second day the drugs we were smuggling in was ibuprofen because we were
so sore from the first day of the festival.
Joe: Yeah.
7Josh: Joys of getting older.
Nick: oh
Joe: yeah, it happens. We don’t, we have to do an aging episode or something
like that. Yeah,
I had a few characteristics. We already touched on some of ’em. It always is large
numbers. The swarms usually consist of dozens to millions of [00:06:00] individuals.
Collective movement talked about that these kind of, they become synchronized co-
hesive movements in response to these stimuli.
Predator threats, food sources, your favorite band getting on stage. You started
having this movement self-organization. The swarms behavior emerges from local in-
teractions between individuals. And so since we
Josh: emerge
Joe: that’s an emergent phenomenon, right? Adaptive some
of these can be adaptive evolutionary advantages to predatory avoidance, forging
efficiency, environmental adaptation.
So swarming isn’t just, , always a chaotic, , there’s some threat, but it could actually
have some purpose. And then dynamic structure those swarms can change shape,
density, direction, very fluid and responding to the internal and external pressures of
push and pull of the group.
So it is very yeah, very.
Josh: very varied. You know, I think as you’re listing off all those characteristics, it
covers a wide variety of
[00:07:00] And you have a lot of different reasons, a lot of different environmental
cues and stuff driving that swarming behavior. So depending on what species you’re
talking about it, it gets really fascinating.
8I mean, I had a number of things come off the top of my head when you men-
tioned animal swarms, and when I did some just kind of brief diving into it. It’s really
interesting once you start comparing all the different types of swarm behavior and,
you know, reasons behind it and types of species that it occurs in, you know, every-
thing from invertebrates like jellyfish to, you know, we’re talking about humans, you
know, the highest order by some measures of vertebrate.
Joe: No, you’re right. And even microbial populations like that. I was looking up
slime molds have this kind of behavior that they were searching for food or response
to threats. But I was
Josh: A bloom.
Joe: algal blooms.
Yeah, that was, I was gonna, that kind of leads us into, I think if you I mean maybe
let’s, we can do a game, everyone listening, but when someone says [00:08:00] animal
swarm swarms in fiction, what your mind goes to probably one movie.
Josh: I, think we’re probably thinking of the same
Joe: Probably. Yes. Whatcha thinking over there?
Nick: as always go with the Marvel comic.
Joe: Oh, you’re going, you went warm. Which one? Oh,
Nick: He is a you
Joe: your you mean, spider-Man villain. Okay. Yeah. That’s your go-to.
Nick: Yeah. I don’t know why it’s, I mean,
Joe: at that, the
insects
Josh: you’re thinking, Hitchcock,
Joe: I am thinking Hitchcock, the birds.
Yes. Oh yes.
9Nick: didn’t even think of that one.
Josh: Yeah, that’s like the classic swarm movie.
Nick: And I’ve even read so many things that were like, birds are swarms. And I’m
like, are they though?
Joe: No the
Josh: interestingly, the bird behavior in that movie doesn’t fit some of the swarm
characteristics because the birds are acting very individually.
Joe: right. They
Josh: Like they, they have a concerted [00:09:00] purpose, you know, destroy all
humans. But they’re not, they’re, you know, they’re not acting in this way where they’re
influenced by the neighbors
working They’re, you know, they are somewhat more individual and
random.
Joe: Yep. And they give the background For those who might not know or have
heard of the Birds, it was an Albert Hitchcock classic horror, masterpiece. 1963. When
it came out, it was actually based on a short story by Daphne Du Mare in 1952.
That was its literary foundation. In the short story. It was the birds were an allegory
to Nazi Germany and being invaded and being taking over. So it was this,
Nick: so it’s time for a remake,
Joe: it’s time for remake and yeah. And so very Cold War theme thematic at that
time.
If you think about, in, in the fifties [00:10:00] early fifties, that was one the minds of
a lot of folks. The movie, it takes place at a fictional coastal town. Like the main charac-
ters, there’s a guy in his love interest. They go to a small house.
And then these birds are just flocking around and then start attacking them in this
kind of way. And it’s, in these movies where you do have swarm somewhat, they repre-
10sent symbols of, societal fears the. Uncontrollable. And, dangerous coming at you in a
way that you can’t get away.
Sporadic you have all this. So that is, that was there and it probably led
Nick: was a horror movie,
Josh: Or.
Joe: Or phobia. There it is.
Nick: so you classify this as a horror movie, right? Horror movie,
Joe: Horror movie? Yeah. I don’t hold on time.
I mean, that’s what it’s classified as. I didn’t
Josh: Yeah.
Joe: give it mean.
official.
Josh: not going rogue on us. It’s definitely, it’s a horror classic.
Nick: Oh, I, okay. I
Joe: might make it a romance. I don’t know. It’s a, you know,
Nick: I didn’t know [00:11:00] if it had to do with what age you were when you
first, not making an old joke, of course, but
Josh: the birds the birds murder people
Joe: they do. Yeah,
Josh: uh, the, this, this island that they’re on, this little town gets slowly invaded by
birds and there’s all these looming intense shots of birds lining, you know, the
power
Joe: The playground, when she goes to get, they get the kids come out and they
get in the car and all the birds, there’s one there and then they look back, there’s five
and they look back and they’re, it is just then just the whole playground is covered
with birds.
11and her
Nick: the movie, but I just don’t remember feeling fear from that one.
Joe: I I mean personally,
that’s
Nick: why I was like, wait, I don’t actually like it’s been a minute since I’ve seen it.
Joe: Yeah.
Nick: But Yeah. That’s
why I was like I don’t remember if it was like an
Joe: I think it’s very I think it’s, I think you have, the horror genre, you have that
element of fear and that’s part of it there, that you have this kind of looming threat.
That’s always there. And you think of horror movies, from, Jason Freddy, classics,
but [00:12:00] the birds, they were just looming threat that was there. And you have
this kind of presence,
Josh: all about building up
Joe: yeah, there’s sharp beaks and they’re erratic movements just pecking at you
and just really
Nick: I mean, crows can take people down
Joe: no,
I don’t, I’m not messing with no crows. I mean, they’re
Josh: wouldn’t.
Joe: I
do want a
do not. Birds they hold grudges, like crows, I think mag pies,
Josh: Yeah.
Joe: they actually, they will re, they remember your face
and your family line.
12They
Josh: Every single species you just mentioned are all members of the Corvid
Nick: Yep.
Joe: Oh, okay. and the Corvids are all some of the smartest birds in the
Nick: They will either love you or
Josh: you’re right, they will definitely recognize people and they will hold a
grudge.
I think there’s even been stories of pros basically telling other pros
Josh: To watch out for.
Joe: yep. Yeah. It almost seems like it’s passed through lineage, like so that their
progeny has the same grudge. Like it’s a, it’s generational.
Like it takes
I
Nick: love that. It is such a [00:13:00] pettiness that I
Joe: Yeah.
Nick: I thrive to. It’s if I hate you, yeah. My whole bloodline’s
Joe: we’re all,
Josh: it’s also the people that are good to They’ll also pass down like the people
that, that feed them and leave stuff out for them. Like they’ll pass along that informa-
tion also. So it’s not entirely negative. You just don’t want to get on their bad
Joe: No, you don’t.
Nick: accidentally run one
Joe: the the, I think the crow that would bring the one guy that left bread and stuff
out for it or food out. It would bring them money, rolled up little, it would go, it would
scour the city for ball. Lost money and then bring it back. And then drop it off.
13Yeah. Yeah. And just drop it off. It was like a value and that the per the person left
the food was excited to get, some money, but I just figured this bird now is attacking
people and has taking their money. It’s like
Didn’t
Nick: he use that money to buy better food for that one
Joe: maybe. Yeah, that would be nice.
Nick: Just pocket this one.
And
Josh: buys better food for himself. Yeah. Screw that bird.
Joe: and you might notice too, but like in, in the birds there were many different
[00:14:00] bird species, and usually birds don’t flock together, that saying comes from
that. So it, it was a very, that also made it ominous that you had all these different birds
Josh: Yeah, like why did all
Against humans all of a sudden,
Joe: Yeah.
Josh: And the isolated nature of the movie as well, because you didn’t know what
was happening in the rest of the world.
kept it?
really isolated on just those characters. So is it this island? Is it everywhere? And at
the end of the movie, they just the murderous birds just fly off into
the
Joe: right. Yeah. They stop, they break apart and it was a whole
maternal,
I don’t know, there was like some other weird. Storylines in there. But yeah, the
birds, they fought ’em off and then they just walk out the house and the birds are like,
just chilling. And they go off and it’s like, all right, it’s everyone’s happy.
14Go off
Josh: But did they go out to attack somebody else,
Nick: I hope so.
Josh: Like you don’t know, like they leave everything unexplained.
Nick: I hope they did. You know, it’s just Hey, another day, all right, we got this
town done. Let’s go to the next one tomorrow. [00:15:00] Yeah. Same time. Yeah. And
Joe: so the
Josh: Yeah. I mean, as a species, humans do have it coming.
Joe: me too, I mean, and it was there’s some historical evidence that that Hitch-
cock got the idea from a real. Bird attack in North Monterey Bay in 1961. So thousands
of like sea birds exhibited disorientated aggressive behavior. And they came to find
out it was a omic acid.
Nick: Oh, I was gonna guess moldy bread
Joe: it that you get poison from diatoms and you were mentioning the microbial
blooms.
Algal blooms, the red tide. That’s what this is. And it’s a neurotoxin that’s that’s
produced by a certain marine algae that actually disrupts the nervous system by mim-
icking the neurotransmitter glutamate leading to kind of overstimulation, neuronal
damage and symptoms like seizures, memory loss, and confusion.
And so you had all these birds like kind of swarm into Monterey, right? That’s
right. Yeah. And they go And [00:16:00] so he had at that story, at this event occurred
near his residence. And maybe gave that final inspiration.
Josh: Hitchcock’s
residence.
Joe: Yep.
Josh: Oh, wow.
15Joe: So that was interesting there, that it did have this kind of real world connec-
tion that you could have a bunch of birds just go crazy, a bunch of angry birds you
know, so
Nick: he was the one that passed them all off.
Joe: off. He’s the one that did it.
Nick: He was like, you know what? This would be a great story. Let’s see how that
would turn out.
Joe: The other thing is. Is the groups of bird names. I just always get a kick out of
looking those up. Like a wake of buzzards, a murder of crows. The most famous, prob-
ably a convocation of eagles, a mob of emus , an asylum of loons, the squadron of
pelicans.
They just have these really cool names, you know, it’s
Josh: of starlings.
Joe: It’s I just love it. It’s who is naming these per what was the motivation there?
It’s
Josh: Oh yeah.
Joe: they don’t
Josh: I just imagine It was some old English guy [00:17:00] in the edu Edwardian
period, like sitting back, smoking a pipe, just like coming up with names for random
groups of
Joe: at that wake of
Nick: Like,
why did fish get the short end of the stick here? It’s just a school of fish,
Joe: a school of fish.
Nick: Not any specific kind.
Joe: you know, a herd of cows. We don’t get anything like, you know, not a.
16Josh: I mean, in the Christian conception of the world fish don’t even count as
meat. So they’ve always been getting the short end of the stick.
Nick: They aren’t animals, they’re
Joe: But birds also have that. I think they’re, I think they’re easy to fear. They can
fly. They have the high ground. If we’ve learned anything from Star Wars,
Nick: I have the high ground kin.
Joe: But they do, and they have talons. They have beaks. They’re ready to go.
, humans really aren’t
Josh: no one wants to get attacked by
Joe: it’s you
Nick: They’re pretty much flying dinosaurs, wil mor de kin say about
Josh: Oh yeah.
I mean, have you ever been attacked by a red wing blackbird? We’ve got them
around this area,
uh, all over
Uh, Have you been attacked? What is the.
I have, [00:18:00] yeah. They’re about the size of a robin and they get really ag-
gressive when they defend their nests in the summer when they’re laying their eggs
and raising their yu.
And so if you pass too close to their nest, they will dive bomb. You. yeah. I’ve total-
ly been attacked. They’ve nest in the parks around here.
Joe: yeah, there it is. So I didn’t know if you were out
Josh: You laugh, but you just wait.
Joe: Antagon. No I’ve had my fair share of dive bombs. So when I was a grad stu-
dent at Arizona State University, they have the palm trees and there were crows, or
some blackbird that lived up in these palms.
17And during probably nesting season, they would swoop down as you walk
through campus. So there were certain, walkways that if you went down, they were go-
ing to swoop down the top of your head. And it always freaked me out. Just one step
to the birds, man.
That was it. They just get together you know what? Let’s just mess that dude up
right there. Let’s make an example out of that one human. And I bet you the rest of hu-
mans aren’t gonna come this way. I mean,
it’s
Nick: a good way, it’s a good method. I agree. [00:19:00] If I saw someone get hit
in the head with a bird, I’d be like,
Joe: that’s right.
Yeah, I’m done. I mean, out of all of the animal swarms. I think birds I think birds
are up there. I think the next one, and maybe might take it as wasps, I think just a, a
swarm of
Josh: Yeah. I wouldn’t wanna, I wouldn’t want a swarm of any kind of stinging
Joe: right? Yes. Yes.
Nick: I
Josh: bees or wasps
or Hornets.
Joe: i mean, like honeybees. I don’t know why
you want a swarm of honeybees around you. I want
but they’re usually not violent. So is it just a lot of honeybees that you agitate?
Josh: Honeybees were actually one of the things that we dealt with pretty often as
part of my wildlife control. We did bees, wasp, and hornets and some other insect
species. Honeybees swarm regularly is part of their normal lifecycle, the greater lifecy-
cle of the colony. When they reach a certain size, usually in the spring or later in the
18end of the summer, they’ll produce a new queen and half the hive, half the colony will
split off with the [00:20:00] old queen and they’ll swarm out into the environment
somewhere and look for a new place to establish a new hive.
And so this swarm will be like a basketball sized ball of bees that will just kinda
hang in a tree or maybe off the gutter of your house or something like that. And they
are not aggressive in that
They’re just balled up, protecting the queen in the center of that ball and sending
out scouts in the surrounding area to try to find a good place that they can move into
basically.
Nick: oh damn.
Josh: And so we would get calls periodically about that type of behavior and, you
know, have to try to explain to people sometimes with more success than others. That
no, really don’t do anything with it. Don’t spray them with a hose. Don’t, you know, just
leave them alone and they will go away and at most, a day or two,
Joe: Yeah. Out of all the flying stinging animals, honeybees are like the sweetest,
no pun intended.
Josh: least the ones that we have around here,[00:21:00]
Joe: Yeah. Oh, are they, are there
Josh: one of, one of the things I, one of the things I had in my note to talk about
was Africanized
Joe: Okay. All right. Yes.
Josh: Because I remember as a kid, killer Bees being such a huge news story and
this big sensational thing and like even watching you know, made for TV movies about
towns getting attacked by giant swarms
with killer bees. Yeah. So that, that, like when I was a kid, killer Bees were up there
with like
19Joe: Now, I was gonna say quicksand
Josh: that I thought I really
Joe: we talked
about, we talk about quicksand quite a bit, not being the threat that we thought it
was.
Nick: and the murder
Josh: I thought it was gonna be
Nick: episode or two ago.
Joe: Yeah.
things did we
Nick: where you were just like expecting to run into ’em.
Yeah. Just.
Josh: Yeah. Hey, one day I’m gonna need to know what to do about quicksand
because it’s gonna happen inevitably.
Joe: gotta have your belt and a stick and flatten out. I mean, yeah. You had a
whole
Yeah.
All the time.
interacted with no quicksand yet. I’m a little disappointed.
Nick: I’m very
Joe: Yeah.
Nick: This life has let me
Joe: change and no murder bees either. Luckily, I’m, I’ve been I’ve been
[00:22:00] lucky on that
Josh: seemed to have gotten stopped by the winter, which is always
had heard, is
20They’re not adapted for overwintering European honeybees are. And so they
would only get so far. But I guess that’s another thing that we can look forward to with
global warming is killer bees will continue their march to conquer North America.
Nick: Yes.
Josh: But they’re like, end em to the southwest and southeast now.
Joe: Wow.
Josh: As far as I know they’ve got them. I don’t know how common they are com-
pared to other species, but there’s definitely reports I saw even up to Georgia and
Tennessee. So they’re out there, man, you gotta watch out for killer
bees. More, more likely than quicksand.
Joe: Yeah, that’s for now, just wait until the killer quicksand. Just when you
thought it was safe
Josh: that turns into killer bees
Joe: Quicksand filled with killer bees at the
Wait,
you get sucked in, they’re
oh, I was
Josh: as, as you’re down, the killer bees are
coming out and stinging you as you’re sinking into the quicksand.
Nick: they’re eating [00:23:00] your feet alive first. You’re just like, oh
Josh: you can get the,
Joe: What’s
Josh: the overly dramatic Nicholas Cage death like
Nick: The
Joe: bees,
Josh: The bees, they’re in my mouth.
21Nick: the bear.
Joe: So after the birds and the bees,
Nick: what happens
next? Joe,
Joe: How we go? Locus
Like locus is probably up there, like for a story. Like it’s just, I mean, it’s biblical,
right?
Josh: One of the
Joe: that’s a if you’re thinking
Josh: Yeah, locusts are really interesting
Uh, like actually
Joe: ants.
Nick: yeah. Over locus.
Joe: I think,
I think locusts are
Josh: are also really
Nick: I don’t know. I just thinking like between ants and locusts, that would go
next. Ants I feel would be the next one
Joe: Locusts are biblical, right? I maybe there’s a ant but able story, but
Nick: I don’t know. I don’t
Joe: Locus are.
Fairly destructive too. They actually destroy millions and billions of dollars worth of
crops like every year. Like it’s, they [00:24:00] are a real,
Nick: don’t they have those ants that like torture people for whenever they swarm
up on people, torture people like they’ve,
Joe: You mean like fire
22Nick: ants? No, the bullet ants.
Joe: the bullet bulletins. I mean,
Nick: Oh, am I mixing
Josh: think you’re thinking about
Nick: army ants?
Josh: which don’t really attack people swarm them. Animals that have reputations
like that, like you have to really mess with them. You have to earn it to get attacked by
a lot of animals
like that. Uh,
Joe: ants.
I can’t.
Those ants are doing nothing to you. They’re just
chilling.
Josh: videos of army ants, like they move in these giant swarms they actually don’t
have permanent hive spaces like ants do. Like they don’t dig tunnel systems in the
earth and stuff. They move in these giant constant swarms through the forest. So you
gotta really put yourself in danger’s way to get attacked by these army ants or, I don’t
know, maybe be like, tied up by a snidely whiplash style villain
and left it in their, I guess didn’t they have that in the, one of those Indiana Jones
Joe: What they like [00:25:00] Uh, honey or something, or they do
Josh: Yeah. And then, then
For the army ants. Yeah.
Nick: See that one I,
Josh: maybe if you do
Joe: was it. But locusts are like, I think a real threat.
23Josh: Well, locusts have two different types of life cycles if they’re, if food is plenti-
ful, they’re fairly solitary and they’re basically just a species of brass hopper. And when
conditions occur that force them to congregate together once they start rubbing up
against each other, if that happens too frequently in a certain amount of time, they’ll
actually start.
Changing their physiology, they’ll get like bigger and the spines on their ex-
oskeleton get bigger and they actually undergo this whole physiological change and
behavioral change, and they’ll start that swarming And so you get those, the biblical
swarms
Joe: Yeah.
Josh: And when they’re in that form, yeah, you can have swarms of millions that
just spread across the countryside for miles devastating
Joe: Yeah. They go any plant life I mean,
Josh: yeah. [00:26:00]
Joe: not localized to just like a neighborhood.
They travel
Josh: And that often happens in like drought conditions and times where food is
scarce. And so that makes them even more dangerous because then they, you know,
the stories of swarms, of locusts destroying people’s crops are really true. And like that
kind of stuff does and can happen,
Nick: Alright. I, given the, I’ll put.
Locust above
Joe: That’s like Exodus, man, one of the 10 plagues of Egypt sent by God to pun-
ish the
pharaohs for refusing to free to Israelites.
Josh: The wrath of God right
24Joe: I mean, they’re,
Listen, if they’re
around.
You know,
Nick: if someone’s gonna swarm me with Locus, I’ll just get my murder of crows
on ’em.
Okay.
Joe: I don’t know. I think the locust could take down the
Nick: I don’t think so.
listen.
Josh: of crows.
You got millions of locusts,
Joe: yeah, they just got the numbers on
Josh: but maybe it would be a smorgasbord for the right
Joe: That’s true. I guess locusts aren’t at the top of the food chain, so they
would have to bow [00:27:00] down.
Like we, we talked about
Josh: about a swarm we had locally here the cicadas, the
periodical,
Joe: CRCs, right?
Josh: Just last year in Illinois in this area, we had a brood of 13 year cicadas and a
brood of 17 year cicadas,
which are different subs.
Joe: Crc.
Josh: subspecies of cicadas that only hatch every so often. They don’t come
out every year.
25Joe: person in the region that didn’t go out and find some
Nick: I don’t think I’ve seen a single,
Josh: news
stories all
Joe: was like everything.
I don’t
Nick: think there was a single cicada in my neighborhood.
Josh: Mean had to go, I mean right. It’s, there’s in in really heavily urban areas.
They didn’t show up that much because the, their eggs have been underground for
13 or 17 years. So if you’ve had a lot of development in your area, then, you know,
they dug up all those eggs along with whatever earth they tilled, you know, to make
development.
So there were a lot of areas around here, like where I live in Chicago, there
[00:28:00] wasn’t really. Much, although there was some down in our park down by
the lake. But we really didn’t have those huge numbers that they had in other areas of
Illinois especially where these two broods overlapped. Which was something that
happens only every 221 years when the 13 and 17 years cicadas line up so that both
broods are hatching at the same time.
And if you’ve never been somewhere where that was occurring, they’re literally
everywhere. They’re all over the trees, like end to end covering the trees and all litter-
ing all over the ground. It’s unreal. And local animals love it. Everything eats cicadas,
basically. Even even things like squirrels eat cicadas during those times.
Joe: poor cicadas. They’re just there chilling, brooding, and
Nick: you woke up to get
Joe: That’s right.
26Josh: 13 years underground just to come up and serve as a smorgasbord buffet
for everything around you.
Nick: So they’re at like the [00:29:00] bottom of the list on swarms that we
Joe: right? Yeah. They’re probably
Josh: Cs are the very bottom of the
Joe: Those are No danger to
Josh: And they’re just food.
Joe: just go out, you want to seek that swarm out. You’re like, let’s go see the
CRCs at the park. I mean, it was fun. We went down to the cab ar, and they were all
over the place.
Mean, you were just, you walk a few feet and you’re getting hit by CRCs. They
were,
Nick: yeah. I don’t think I’ve seen any of them this, whenever that happened last,
Josh: Oh, you missed out
Joe: didn’t
Yeah, I didn’t see any,
gotta, wait, you said 220 years,
Nick: Hopefully I’ll be dead in at least half that
Josh: for both of those 13 and 17
years 13 years or 17 years, you’ll have another brood happening, right? Is that the
cycle? 13
in this area. And there’s multiple broods in our region of the US.
Joe: Okay.
Josh: So there’s other areas that will have 13 or 17
year cicadas match at different times. So if you’re really missing it, there’ll be
something next year or this year
27you can chase ’em down.
Nick: I’m pretty sure I’m good. [00:30:00] I don’t need to go see all these flying
bugs.
Joe: It’s moving down
Josh: saw people online doing recipes with the
Joe: That’s right. Yeah. They were talking the
Josh: Try to, you know, fry ’em up, make little cicada tacos or
Joe: And it was like the younger ones, that hadn’t multi was at the,
Josh: Yeah. You wanna get ’em right when they come out of the ground apparent-
ly, because they’re still kind of soft shell, you want the soft
shell
Joe: don’t want the
Josh: not the uh,
Joe: ones the crunchy ones Throw back. It’s got the crunch. You don’t want ’em
Munch.
You go. That’s it.
Josh: are big.
Joe: They are, I don’t know. I’ve been, have you eaten a lot? I mean, I’ve had meal-
worms.
Nick: How many cicadas have you eaten, Joe?
Joe: Zero.
Josh: mealworms and I’ve had some grasshoppers that were pretty small
grasshoppers as, as far as those things go,
Joe: I haven’t had any other insects. There’s a place they make
Josh: not bad, you know, prime up, a little Cajun seasoning.
Just try not to think about what you’re eating.
28Joe: yeah.
Josh: They’re not bad.
Joe: Like spiders they probably taste tastes a lot like, you know,
Josh: I don’t know. That might be too far for
me.
Joe: They’re like land shrimp, right?
Nick: I thought that would be [00:31:00] cockroaches.
Joe: no, cockroaches are insects. Yeah. No, that’s a whole different line. That’s a,
that’s some hard times there.
That’s,
cockroaches
Nick: were the land shrimp. No. Is that not true?
Joe: No.
Nick: Or is that land crabs?
Joe: I don’t know what you’re talking about. Let’s move along. Now it’s kind. I’m
talking about ticks or something over there.
Nick: What
Joe: land crafts. That’s, yeah.
Nick: all
Josh: You mentioned ticks. I had a couple of movies that I was gonna bring up
and I dunno if you guys have ever heard of the movie Ticks.
It was an older movie definitely like a b or C tier horror movie about giant
mutated
In the mountains, attacking some coeds. But the best part of it is Howard’s broth-
er, Clint Howard noted, excellent character actor Clint Howard who plays one of the
hillbilly criminals who’s growing weed in the mountains that is also defending their
29weed fields against the giant mutated ticks. And he of course, [00:32:00] gets at-
tacked and then there’s lots of great practical special effects if you like, those kinds of
beats here, horror movies. But it does involve, the movie does involve a giant swarm
of giant mutated ticks attacking people in the mountains.
Joe: Those are their best. That’s like Piranha. That was also
Josh: Yeah. Yeah. that’s kind A swarm movie.
You Ana,
Joe: Yes. did
Nick: I’m gonna throw this one out there.
Joe: oh. He’s been, see, he’s been sitting on this
Josh: can’t even say it.
Joe: Yeah,
Nick: I need a minute.
Joe: All right.
Why don’t we do that. I was gonna say my next, the next swarm that I think of are
rats,
Like rats are like, you know, and just the Pied Piper, of Hemel Hamlin. You had, dis-
eases, a lot of things have corresponded to.
Rat infestations in civilization, especially urban civilization of, , black plague, black
death. I mean, you had, things like that. So it is
Josh: Although that was more due to the fleas than
just gotta [00:33:00] they were the the rat’s, Reputation
on,
Joe: I am. They were the conduit though,
Now we’re gonna
had the fleas that actually then were moving, they were
30Josh: It’s a two way street, you know? I mean, the people weren’t all that clean
themselves either. The fleas were going back and forth pretty readily. don’t think we
can totally blame the
Joe: That’s why you have, women who had cats who didn’t, at that time, didn’t die
or get catch the plague. They were considered, , witches. But really they, because the
cats kept the rats away from spreading the f fleas da that they live, but then they got
persecuted as, you know, set of oh, that’s a smart idea.
We all should have a dozen cats. And
that’s,
Nick: where the mob mentality comes in.
Joe: the mob mentality
Josh: You’re right.
Joe: So you were, and when you were talking about the locusts rubbing up
against each other, and then all of a sudden you get this kind of angry mob I thought
of a concert venue , someone rubs up against someone the wrong way and then all of
a sudden you gotta, you got something happening.
Nick: So would shark NATO be considered a swarm?
Joe: know what, [00:34:00] you stop it as I, my youngest son, we were talking my
age, 14, I’ll be 15 a little bit. And we were, we, I said what the episode was gonna be
and he was like, are you gonna talk about Sharknato? I was like,
Nick: You know,
Joe: it. They just had a few sharks. It wasn’t a lot of sharks. Sharknato.
Josh: Hey. I’m happy to talk about
Sharknato though. That’s just good fun.
Nick: this is like the fifth episode in a
Joe: We’ve talked about Sharknato and other
31Josh: Have you, have, you talked about Steve Sanders from Beverly Hills 9 0 2 1
oh. Leaping through a shark with a chainsaw
like chainsaw. First he leaps through the shark.
Joe: Was that the first shark nato or one of the subsequent shark NATOs?
Josh: Not sure they all blend together.
Joe: work together?
I mean,
it was like four. I mean, that’s where people like, they, they’re like, I got this idea.
But it’s dumb.
Josh: were definitely too
Joe: yeah you just go, you just, you always look at shark NATO and go, that’s, if
they went into some room and [00:35:00] pitch that movie, you can pitch any idea you
got.
Just take faith and go,
Josh: Sharknado five, we’re still milking
Joe: right. Yeah.
It’s
Nick: Oh, and then they’re just milking a shirt.
Joe: Okay. That’s not how that works, but all
Nick: for this one it does because
Joe: made genetically engineered sharks with little tets.
Josh: They’re getting really creative
Nick: I think we’re gonna be able to pitch this one. Guys.
Joe: be I’m, there’s a, we’ve had a lot of movie ideas on these episodes.
This is one I’m not gonna be behind. I’m gonna leave this to Nick. He is. Got it.
Hold.
32What else you got? Anything?
Nick: Yeah, so that,
Joe: I mean, that’s, that was on my, and then Ants, I did have ants on my list, but
we touched upon them. Everything else is in there. I mean, the fictionalized, spiders
there was movies about that, like ACH phobia.
Josh: Arag phobia.
Joe: The nineties. That was one
Josh: There was one in the early two thousands I think called, just called Big Ass
Spiders.
Joe: Yep.
Eight. Yeah,
Josh: giant spiders there, eight legged, eight legged freaks, I
Joe: Eight legged free. But those are, but see, [00:36:00] that’s, those are giant
spiders. There’s a lot of ’em
Josh: They’re like fifties sci-fi
throwback
Joe: Yeah. Like them and those types of movies, but just you have a movie where
normal size it, there was, you know what, there was one also B Horror kind of The
frogs.
Nick: Oh, yes.
Joe: And it was like that the seventies
Josh: I’ve seen that VHS cover, but I don’t know if I’ve ever seen the
Joe: and they had a bunch in the seventies. People can go and look, but that was
the environmental kind of movies of animals attacking, you know, humans encroach-
ing on their land. So developers are coming in, they bought the cheap land, and then
the animals kind of rally and then go.
33But the frogs was exactly that, where they were there, and then the frogs started
killing. People one by one,
Nick: do zombies fall under swarms?
Joe: I was gonna say that I had that.
Nick: I had that written down as a note.
Joe: I think they
Josh: That was my thought first for human swarms in fiction. The first thought I had
was zombies
Joe: [00:37:00] I think would fit.
they bunched together And it was interesting because I think in movies or books
you have that idea of zombies. If you, you have the initial outbreak the demise of hu-
manity and the rise of the zombie. And then they appear that they do follow then a
swarm like mentality and behavior
I think z Nation that was at TV show.
Josh: Oh, I love Z
Joe: Yeah. And they had, but they had the swarms. They would go, oh, a swarm of
zombies are headed our way. And they had to get inside. And this whole, this herd, it
was like almost a herd of zombies would go through looking for almost like locusts,
looking for
Josh: Definitely. Following swarm behavior.
Joe: Yeah. So it is really, I think it would be interesting, I would say yes. That they
would find it and yeah, if there’s a food, like if you, there’s a bunch of zombies that are
disorganized and then there’s a stimulus event, they all then converge and actually fol-
low that [00:38:00] behavior to get at that that,
Josh: Yeah. I mean, that basic setup is in pretty much every zombie movie.
Joe: So I
34Josh: You think you’re hidden and then a noise attracts
Joe: that’s right. Yeah. And then one, and then
Josh: then they all swarm.
Joe: They’re all triangulate on that position and you got trouble. Yeah. Especially if
they’re fast moving zombies, which I have issues with, but, okay, we’ll move on. ’cause
that’s not, this is not
oh
Josh: That just seems unfair to the
Joe: Yes, it
Nick: does.
Joe: I, my whole gripe with that people know, is that I don’t know how you gain
ability after you go into a decay state. Okay. That’s all I’m gonna mention with
Nick: See Joe with science,
Joe: it’s just hand waving. I know, but it’s my job to call it out. But it is
Josh: You gotta draw the line somewhere.
I’m, I’m with you. How do you get faster and a limitless supply of energy as a zom-
bie when you didn’t have that as a human shambling? I understand. You know, you’re
barely
Joe: Yeah. They’re all right. But there’s folks that, it’s [00:39:00] like you weren’t
running that fast. When you were alive. Okay. So why are we running
Josh: We’re running for that long. I don’t know if you guys are runners, but you
know, if you are not out there running regularly, you can’t maintain a fast pace for very
long.
Nick: it’s all about the lung capacity though.
Joe: No lung capacity. They’re
Josh: is the lung capacity of an average
35Nick: I’d say none. So like
Josh: the, zombie virus negate the
Nick: drops down to zero and then it just goes infinite. That’s not
Josh: with no lungs? You don’t have to breathe. You could run forever,
solve it.
Nick: Boom
Joe: that was the idea that in,
Nick: was it Walking
Joe: Dead or which movie was that? Or was it Walking Dead where he had, they
had him exhale.
But he was a zombie. Like it was like a cold day when they did the shot and you
saw like a little breath of air you know, the kind of
Josh: I’m
Joe: Yeah, it
I don’t remember
Dead. It was like a mistake. It was one of the episodes where they shot it and one
of the [00:40:00] characters were supposed to be a zombie, but then they were clearly
breathing like a living human.
It was just
Josh: Oh, like they weren’t supposed to.
That wasn’t supposed to
Joe: I always do this ’cause I think it’s fun, but the earliest fictional
yeah. Right there.
Nick: Example.
Joe: I, yeah, I’m married. Yes. I’m a
Nick: This is tearing you up now with
36Joe: It is, I’m feeling very emotional about those zombies.
Nick: Yeah. You got a earliest, lemme guess it’s the Bible or
Josh: locus
Nick: Or, there was some Egyptian hieroglyphics that was found on the wall and it
predated back to a hundred bc
Joe: It’s, our favorite here. It’s the epic of
that story.
has like everything.
Nick: No, this is not acceptable.
Joe: has swarming lions.
And the Bulls of heaven. I mean, that’s
Nick: No, that doesn’t, no,
Josh: knew how to.
Joe: [00:41:00] But every episode it’s that is, that’s just what,
Nick: what’s, I’m gonna call BS on this one.
Joe: it’s there. Then the Iliad, they’re battling swarming bees, birds, locusts all the
kind of ancient swarming of animals in there. Yeah. The Bible, of course, that’s proba-
bly close to the age of the epic of Gilgamesh. Yeah,
you had, divine comedy, Dante , 1320 ce swarm hell has swarming like insects.
And then the Pied Piper, that was 14th, 16th century ce. So there’s a bunch. that’s idea.
That swarming animals coming at you is like the ultimate fear. I mean, as a solo, like
one rat isn’t an issue. 10 rats. Okay. You got a small
Nick: Wait, it depends on what size the rat is.
Joe: I mean,
Nick: is it like a New York rat where it’s like a
Josh: I don’t think they exist.
37Joe: You don’t like a [00:42:00] nice muskrat or Right. I mean a sewer rat they get
big
Josh: princess bride quote,
Joe: Oh,
Josh: rodent of unusual size. I don’t think they exist.
Joe: I was like, what are you talking about? I’ve seen it.
Nick: I’ve lived
Josh: Yeah. Something like a, that’s like A rat the size of a pig or a rodent.
Nick: Or what about when a bunch of rats get all tangled up together and they re-
form the rat king?
Josh: The rat kings,
yes.
Joe: What do you do? You need a bunch of rat kings to swarm. You know, can you
have swarming rat kings?
Josh: I think the idea is the rat King controls the rat swarm
Joe: see. Yeah.
Nick: It’s the nest of it that all gets bunched up with their tails and then they just
start like
Yeah,
Josh: moving as one entity.
Joe: But yeah, those were
Josh: You have to imagine, you know, animal swarms are gonna hold just as much
fascination for our ancestors as they do for us, if not more because people used to live
in a much more [00:43:00] intimate relationship with nature. You know, they were out
amongst animals and the wild much more of their day.
38Whereas we’re fairly separated from the natural world. Most of us, certainly if we
live in cities or urban environments, it makes sense that they were including this kind
of stuff in their stories and in their storytelling. For as long as we’ve had stories in sto-
rytelling,
Joe: Yes. No, I agree. And there, there’s a certain themes you can think of, you
know, the kind of, the fear of being overwhelmed, losing control against this kind of
overwhelming force that we have. The nature retaliation. We touched on that kind of
the seventies was really popular, but through history probably had that push and pull.
Have we gone too far? Are we encroaching too much on the natural world? Intelli-
gence and coordination. You just have these kind of, like you, you were saying earlier,
the birds, that’s, it’s not quite a traditional swarm of just chaotic. They were plotting
and planning and really guiding the [00:44:00] humans where they wanted it.
They were almost boxing ’em , wouldn’t let ’em leave the island. I mean, it was this
whole coordinated effort to keep ’em there. And then you just have the overall sym-
bolism as an allegory to societal breakdown, chaos or pre fears. And that’s almost
magnified when we get to the zombie, right?
Because that is our ultimate not even an animal that’s coming or is chaotic. It’s us
that has become the uncontrolled.
and
the ultimate breakdown, like the breakdown of self. I think that’s
Josh: We become our own worst nightmare.
Joe: So you giving me the look over
there? Give me the looks. What’s happening?
Nick: Nothing
Josh: matter, zombies are humans reduced to nothing but instinct.
Joe: Instinct. That’s right. Yeah.
39Josh: the zombie, The zombie swarm is humans without any of our intellect or in-
dividuality.
Joe: Reduced to the lizard brain, right? Is
Nick: yeah. They’re just Out to feed.
But like only on other people.
Joe: should be like a movie
Nick: out to feed.
I mean, that’s the next [00:45:00] zombie movie.
Joe: It is. We gotta do it.
You’ve heard it here out the feed.
Josh: can pitch that after Sharknado
five. right.
Nick: milking it.
Joe: Zombie nato.
Nick: Oh. Oh no.
Josh: Yeah.
Joe: just when you thought it was safe. The zombie twister.
Nick: Only if we can get that one guy back from the last twisters.
Joe: All right. Josh, do you have any advice to give folks if a swarm is approach-
ing?
Josh: Most part, try to get out of the way and relax. They probably aren’t interest-
ed in you.
Joe: oh, there you heard it there.
Crack open
Nick: know if I can
Joe: off.
40Nick: that. gonna panic and then away in a different
Joe: Get the flame You gotta remember the, the first the first commandment of
Douglas Adams. Don’t panic.
Don’t
Josh: Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy.
Joe: Yeah.
Nick: Oh man, I thought I was, grab the gasoline.
Joe: have your towel
Josh: Yep.
Joe: a towel
Josh: towel.
Joe: and do it.
Cool. Do you have a favorite [00:46:00] swarm? If you had to be in a swarm sce-
nario which animal which you want. I like a
Josh: Like for my own personal safety or
Joe: what? Whatever you
Josh: oh, no, I, I do, I say I have a favorite swarm. One of the things I didn’t quite
get a chance to bring up, but I guess I’ll bring it up
now, is, Dragonfly. Swarms. So there’s a species of dragonfly that migrates from
the Northern North America area down to the Gulf Coast of America and Mexico the
coast of the Gulf of Mexico.
And they passed through the Great Lakes area. And I live pretty close to a park
that’s right on the lakefront here in Chicago. And so every year around like late July,
August, September, we’ll have hundreds of dragonflies passed through the area. And
when I go down to the beach, you can watch the dragonflies coming in and pre on all
the smaller insects [00:47:00] that are flying around the dune grass and then above
41the dragonflies, all of the swifts and birds that are preying on the dragonflies as they
come through.
And it’s just this really cool display of nature that I love getting to see. And it’s
these huge. Swarms of animals, both the dragonflies and the birds that you know, you
can watch without any fear for yourself like I said, none of them are interested in
you.
Joe: doing their business
until they are, until it’s like that’s the guy over there.
Josh: Yeah. So if you’re lucky enough look out for the dragonfly
Joe: And when’s that about? Like just a
Josh: like late summer, I would say August,
September.
That’s when they’re coming through my area. So coming through Chicago and
then eventually they’re going down to, you know, the southern states, the Gulf Coast.
Joe: then it’s go straight. It’s a straight shot. That is so like through Illinois,
Josh: I, I’ve seen them, I’ve seen them around here for a long [00:48:00] time. I
was trying to figure out a little bit more about them. And they follow a similar migra-
tion pattern to Monarch butterflies. They’re actually a lot harder to track, so they don’t
know nearly as much about the dragonflies migration patterns as they do about
monarch butterflies, but they know that they’re in similar areas, similar timeframes.
They’re seeing them migrate along similar paths at similar times, but they just
don’t know as much about the dragonflies.
Joe: Yeah,
I was like I was gonna say monarchs is probably one also insect. And I just hap-
pened to be at like a conference in, was it Monterey or Sylmar, California. And there
was like some huge tree .
42And they were like, oh, this is a place they’re migrating right now. If you go, it’ll be
thousands of ’em. You know, tens of thousands just hanging around. And so we went
and we didn’t see tens of thousands, but they were like more like hundreds and they
were like, oh, we’re off by. It’s not an exact science like they’re gonna be, but it was like
they had a range of dates and we were just there come back [00:49:00] tomorrow.
And we were like we need to leave. We gotta, you know, it’s not like we, this is it,
this is our shop. But it was, they were there. I mean, you could see I mean, it was prob-
ably the most butterflies that
Josh: still pretty
impressive even
Joe: It was really cool. Yeah, it was really neat and fun. So I did enjoy that.
Nick, you got a favorite swarm?
Nick: Yeah, my murder.
Joe: Your murder.
Crows. You’re
Josh: murder of crows?
Nick: Why would, what’s not to love about them?
Joe: The crow army.
Nick: Yeah. I think befriending them and creating an army to do my bidding
would be the best idea
Joe: There it is.
Josh: Nick’s getting ready to be the villain in birds
Joe: know that’s right.
Nick: Hovering above with my crows
Joe: yeah. There. I can see it now. Feeding them bagels. Yeah. You’re like, here
you go.
43Nick: Anything they want
Joe: you go, yeah, I don’t
Nick: feed my birds. What about you, Joe? What’s your go-to swarm?
Joe: I just said Monterey. I I mean, I like the
motto. You didn’t say
Nick: that [00:50:00] was your
Joe: No. I piggybacked off of that one, but I mean, you know what? I’m a zombie
guy, so I’m just gonna go with, I’m gonna go with zombies. I like it. I threw ’em in there.
They’re animals, you know? Yeah,
Josh: Yeah.
Joe: So
Nick: I’m down for that.
Joe: We’re down for it. And I got my country wisdom, so I’m ready to go. I think I
can make it out.
Nick: I feel like I keep sending you more stuff to add to your country wisdom.
Joe: I know you gave me like the Guide to Survival or something like Yeah. I’m just
adding, I’m there.
Nick: I’m slowly just being like, all right, Joe’s gonna have everything I need.
Joe: just need somebody to be prepared. You, I know you’re your game.
You’re gonna be
Nick: out.
Joe: there dingdong.
Cool. Josh, anything else? Did we, we hit everything we can. Any other bits of wis-
dom you’d like to share
Josh: know, I
44I love animals. I’ll talk about ’em for as long as you want. But that’s, I think we’ve hit
most everything that I wanted to touch on.
Joe: Yeah. The now you were, do you have any fun on our way out, like [00:51:00]
a fun story in your. Career as a pest management. Engineer.
Josh: Yeah.
Joe: Sorry, I put you on the spot now you’re like, they were all
Josh: no, I mean, I was coming in as your, as the animal guy, so I should have had
a story ready. A lot of my stories are just like smaller quick anecdotes. A woman who
called in complaining that she could hear a goose somewhere on the pond that she
lived on, that sounded for forlorn.
Those were her words, and she wanted us to come out and do something about
it. She wasn’t even sure what she wanted us to do about it. She just didn’t like that this
goose sounded sad. I learned a lot about how little people, some people know about
nature in the natural
Joe: It’s a sad are just totally unprepared to deal with living next to animals.
Josh: you know, even if you’re, even if you’re living in the city you’ve got animals
all around you. You know, I saw a coyote in one of the cemeteries just the other day
from the train while I was going to work. I’ve seen raccoons pass me on [00:52:00] the
fire escape at, on my building.
Just walking up past the fire escape, just kinda Hey, how’s it going?
Alright. And I just let ’em go, you know, because they’re just trying to make a living
too.
Nick: Oh, so you don’t trap every animal now, like
Joe: Yeah.
Nick: that’s not like your daily thing
45Josh: no, I, I left my trapping days behind. Me and the animals have a much more
peaceful coexistence now which I’m much happier with.
Joe: And you were just personifying the raccoon. It didn’t really speak to you.
it did. It was, were
you out there? Because that’s
Josh: no I can I can make mental contact with the animals now. No. I literally had a
person tell me one time that, that she like psychically communicated with the rac-
coons living in her house and told them to and that’s how she got rid of her own rac-
coon
Joe: Wow. That’s yeah. So what happened with the sad goose?
Nick: can you tell us what it sounded like?
Josh: I always imagined it sounded like, oh. Just like a really sounding goose.
Once we told her we were a private company and if we came out to do anything for
her, we would have to charge her money for that. [00:53:00] She changed her mind
pretty
quickly.
Joe: okay. There it is. You put money in it. Yeah. The good old capitalism there.
The yep.
Go.
Josh: people care a lot less about the animals around them once you tell them
that, no, your city doesn’t pay for this. We’re a private company, you have to pay for it.
Oh, okay. I guess they’ll be fine.
Joe: Yeah. They’ll ha they’ll spruce up on their own, but
Josh: Yeah.
Nick: the spruce, goose.
46Joe: yeah. Yeah. All right. On that note, I think we should go ahead and wrap up. I
know everyone’s all sad out there. A bunch of sad goose. We gotta go. We’ll be back.
We’ll be back again, I promise.
But
Josh: for having me on, guys.
Joe: thanks
Thank you for coming
on and sharing your knowledge about animal swarms and sad goose.
Nick: Someday we’ll have to go get some shwarma.
Joe: We’ll have to get swarm. That’s right. You know,
Josh: Celebrate the animal swarms
with swar
Joe: And on that note, you’ve got me, Joe.
You got Nick. You got
got Nick. You’ve
Nick: And that was
Joe: And that
Nick: [00:54:00] We went down
some animal hole. So
Joe: Some animal holes, don’t we? We didn’t talk about rabbit swarms. We’re
here. We got a rabbit hole of research
Nick: that just seems like part war.
Josh: don’t rabbits don’t swarm as far as I know. But they can get really overpopu-
lated
so their population’s kind of boom and bust.
Joe: or
47there
Josh: But I don’t know if rabbits really having a lot of swarming behavior, it would
be a very adorable swarm.
Joe: If it would be, I ain’t could see that. Yeah. Except when the hawks come and
the owls and the eagles and then it becomes something
Josh: becomes a very grizzly swarm.
Joe: I write on that note. Y’all stay safe out there. Love you.
Nick: Bye-bye.