The RHR crew explores the neuroscience of fear, the psychology of disgust, and the genre brave enough to find out exactly where terror ends and entertainment begins.

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joe: [00:00:00] Hey, welcome back to the Rabbit Hole of Research down here in the basement studio. You’ve got me, Joe, you

Nick: you got Nick.

joe: got Nick

Geo: Georgia, 

joe: We’ve got

Georgia. We’re all crewed up down here. All in person Surviving Living.

Nick: Yeah, we’re we’re just making it through.

joe: Hunkering down.

Nick: Just trying to make it through the winter months.

joe: it through the winter months. That’s right. That’s right. So, in this episode we do have a guest with us. Hello there. Over here. So if you’d like to introduce yourself so people hear your voice. Know who you are.

Phrique: Hello everyone. I’m Phrique I am a splatter punk author. New-ish. We’re in that space where it’s it’s been about a year and a half, so well, intermediate, I guess. Yeah, so kind of new. But in that year and a half I put out like five books, so

Nick: Yeah. Oh,

Phrique: yeah. 

joe: Cranking ’em out.

Phrique: I’m having fun obviously, that.

joe: yeah. So yeah, we’re gonna dig into fear [00:01:00] Phobias. Psychology and splatter punk, how these come together a little bit. So it’s

Geo: it’s

Nick: kind of unusual for us to have a horror episode outside of

joe: I know. Yeah, this year, just the way the calendar works, we only get to release two episodes in October.

So we gotta find other places to Yeah. To get our fix in.

Geo: could always talk about horror 

joe: I guess 

Geo: yeah.

joe: can talk about whatever we want. It’s our podcast.

Geo: That’s right. 

joe: That’s right. That’s 

Geo: Those sponsors. Those sponsors are gonna start protesting and leave us

joe: All our sponsors here. No sponsors, Nick. Yep.

Nick: Yeah.

Geo: We We gotta, I think we got a new one coming out soon.

joe: Oh my gosh,

Phrique: I heard the episode about the hot sauce ones and I’m like, now I gotta look these

up. So you guys,

Nick: those are Sauce. Yeah. Jesse and

Geo: Oh, those are, yeah.

Phrique: guys did a very good job with marketing ’cause I’m like, damn, I don’t even need hot sauce like that, but I need to

look Yeah,

joe: And they’re really good. Yeah.

Geo: they are one is really tasty.

joe: So yeah, I think we’ve pretty much gone through all our yeah.

Nick: I am fresh out. Yeah,

Geo: Yeah, not fresh

Nick: out. 

It’s been out for a

joe: We gotta have ’em on again. Then we get some free hot [00:02:00] sauce. All right. Well I got, you know,

Nick: you got a list.

joe: I have actually this episode. I don’t really have a list. I know how, but I do have my, oh

Geo: have? He’s got a monologue.

joe: mine on. Oh, you guys wanna hear little,

Nick: terrified of this.

joe: right? So here we go. Let’s get into

this.

You’re reading in bed.

The house is quiet. Dark door is locked. Safe. You know the book in your hands is just ink and paper, but your heart is racing, palm, sweating, skin goose, fleshing. Every muscle in your body is tensed for a threat that doesn’t exist.

Nick: I, what kind of book are you reading?

joe: You could close the book, turn on overhead light, but you don’t.

But you creep closer to this feeling of fear that is supposed to protect you. It’s an ancient alarm designed to keep you alive. It screams at you to run from the snake, away from the cliff, the predators in the dark, or to flesh that squirms with maggots, but sometimes you run towards it instead, paying to be [00:03:00] chased through popcorn, buttered fingers held up to our eyes.

We watched a scene we know will make us sick. We seek out the exact sensation that in any other context we’d call trauma. Same chemicals, same brain regions firing. Same body brace for horror but one is. Debilitating phobia. And the other is a Tuesday night movie with friends. So what’s the difference between terror and entertainment and what happens when a genre decides to find out how far you can push it before the difference disappears?

Geo: That’s good question. 

Phrique: So lovely.

Nick: yeah.

joe: Thank you. 

Nick: Y you’re posing some questions there, I think at the end. Yeah. 

joe: What do you think?

Nick: I

think once you see it right there in front of you, that’s when it becomes the major difference.

joe: Yeah.

Nick: Like

Geo: What do you mean?

Nick: Well, I mean, if I see something on the screen, I’m not scared.

I, I watched horror movies enough to where I’m like, yeah, that’s fine.

Geo: So it’s more the things you can’t see. [00:04:00] It’s, More the things that are physically in the room with me.

Nick: Like 

joe: you’re afraid of people.

Geo: People are pretty scary. Yeah.

joe: So what do you think Phrique you write in the genre?

Do you wanna define splatter punk for folks who aren’t familiar with that genre? Sure.

Phrique: Sure. Well first off, the, that was, like I said, lovely. You literally hit like all my, like brain buttons that like every little thing. Just like I have an, I’m an evolutionary psychology nerd, so like, all perfect. So, splatter punk, everyone that doesn’t know is basically like a genre of extreme horror, spider punk, similar, of like

brother and sister, maybe cousins.

But extreme horror is literally for shock value. You know, they’re just trying to get as much sensory and to just really just rev up everything. And splatter fun is basically all that, but for a reason, [00:05:00] like with a moral, with some kind of commentary. There’s more allegory, nuance stuff like that.

And it’s very funny because, I even find when I’m trying to not write but I’m not trying to put a moral in there still is one there. And personally, I have OCPD, so it is not normal OCD, it’s actually like more foundational for me, where the minute I see something, I already know my brain already, is it categorized where it’s going to be.

And it’s just kind of one of those, you know, it’s not the worst mental illness to have, but it’s it’s very it’s even in my writing you can tell because 

joe: my

Phrique: first book was called Gig of the Damned, which is a like a jello about drag queens. And so I’m telling you, I’m killing these 12 drag queens on the back.

There’s a kill list, so I’m telling you they’re gonna die. Like we’re not mincing words with that, but it’s very, the first chapter is my main character is Gambled on a Fart. [00:06:00] And then, which is my favorite drag queen name ever. And and then the next chapter is Dina Fire. And then the next chapter is ga Fart.

Next chapter. It’s Reba Dichi. So everything’s just my brain, just, that’s kind of how it needs to go back and forth. Like my tattoos are all the same on both sides, like they mirror so I have to have everything symmetrical. So it’s just funny ’cause it’s like it’s, but it’s so, like even there’s two stories I’m working on now and I’m like, this is gonna be more extreme horror because there’s not much about, I can talk about it ’cause I’ve talked about it before, but it’s called Rearranged Guts and it’s going to be about a basically a serial killer who uses Grinder to find his victims. And he basically explodes them. Like he gets in there and then he finds ways to just, yeah. He really likes to see their, he likes to see their inside.

So, 

joe: right. But, and 

Phrique: and so I’m thinking like, this is just gross. This [00:07:00] is just, you know, but then the more I’m getting into it, it’s like he has a lot of internalized homophobia,

You know, father did X, Y, Z and so it kind of made, so I accidentally put a mortal in anyways. ’cause it’s just see what I mean? A lot of my stories is very, when you hold things in, it manifests,

joe: Right, right.

Phrique: Timbers was about nun mother Superior who.

Had these urges and she was told by the church in so many words, you can’t have these urges. And then it just so happens a lesbian lumberjack falls into the convent and has amnesia. ’cause of course she has amnesia and the only way for her to get her memory back is to have sex with all the nuns. So all this is going on in the 

convent 

joe: go.

Phrique: and most superior.

joe: Oh, hold on.

Can we put a pin really quick here? Sure.

Geo: true.

Phrique: Sure. 

joe: Is that a known cure to amnesia?

Is that you know, when I watch Overboard today have Goldie 

Geo: Is that scientifically proven? 

joe: Have I missed [00:08:00] that research

bit like in there, like where it’s, you know,

Nick: wait, sex with nuns cares everything,

Geo: It couldn’t hurt. Right.

Phrique: funny you say that too, ’cause like thinking of like old TV shows. ’cause I love, you know, I watch all the old you know, 1980s, 1970s movies

and stuff like, 

joe: stop calling seventies and eighties old. Just, 

, when I go old,

I think you’re gonna go forties 30. You’re like, I’m like, geez man.

Nick: I agree with you. Sixties and seventies is old.

Phrique: late 1900, the late 1900 movies. I will, I’ll go. But like they always talked about someone had amnesia and there was like quick send, you know, things that don’t really come up nowadays, but for some reason that’s kind of what I was, I kind of wanted to more of a grind housey field.

So I, I had to bring that back. But then, ’cause we’re introduced to the character whose name is Paulina, and so she’s a lumberjack, I was legit trying to go for Paul Bunion, I think her last name is Bunion. Yeah. Because that was, I had to do it. But yeah, like that’s, she’s, we [00:09:00] meet her where she’s basically like a lesbian.

S douche bag. She’s just known for sleeping with everybody. So that’s kind of was her mo but she’s a lumberjack, so she’s also, you know, chainsaw in hand and just she’s in the convent and she lost her memory and just little ticks of what she used to be was, she was 

handy. 

She was handy. So,

joe: So,

Phrique: But yeah, that’s just, but it was mainly about Mother Superior is she’s like the like she would flag rate, I don’t know what the word’s not coming to me, where she would, you know, what they beat themselves with rope and all that.

She was part of that,

But she took it a little too far where it became a little s Andy, like where it’s that line where it’s are you enjoying this?

So meanwhile, 

Nick: much enjoyment outta your swings.

Phrique: right. So that’s what I want to touch on that. But then also all this sex is going on around her when she’s trying to like, keep her urges at bay.

And it’s just kind of what [00:10:00] happens when you keep stuff, you know,

joe: kind of buried

Phrique: bottled up, it’s gonna come out way or another. So I, that was a really long explanation, 

Phrique: but that is, that splatter punk is whatever you want it to be. But I have, I said from the beginning, I’m gonna write the gayest shit ever because one thing about splatter punk is that it’s very, there’s no rules.

You can say whatever you want. I’m a big fan of the punk part of it, where we’re kind of being told to be quiet, to not not make a fuss. You know, don’t don’t wave that rainbow flag too much. So then that’s why my covers literally say violent f bloody a FK, a F, because I’m

not

I’m.

joe: , from the evolutionary point of it, the brain, our hardware and software.

It’s pretty ancient, , it’s a hundred thousand years old. , it hasn’t evolved that much. And a lot of our fear structure is based on keeping us safe. That was hinted at that. And so to fight or [00:11:00] flight, , that’s our quick response, 12 10, 12 milliseconds you gotta go.

And then we have longer responses to threats. And so really the idea here in, in some ways, splatter punk. My thinking also is that you’re trying to funnel modern day issues through this and hijack this very primitive kind of fear structure. Your studies and in your writing, are you playing with that line?

Do you see the line or, 

that. 

Phrique: It’s almost like when I hate to go back to the nuns again, but like when you,

joe: we’re not gonna get sponsored by the nuns. I

Nick: I

thought this episode was sponsored by the Catholic Church. Is that not right 

Phrique: so you guys know you’re, we’re in the same area. I was forced to go to Andrea and so I was forced to go to Catholic school and and it shows because that’s what happens when you force when you force the Pisces to do anything. Oh, I’m gonna fight. But but let think about when a nun is like slapping someone’s knuckles.

’cause they wanna get that message in there. So I [00:12:00] guess I have to get your attention. And so that’s kind of. Like a big slap on a slap on the knuckles. ’cause it’s well I’m trying this is what I’m trying to say. This is, I’ve done like a bunch of short stories that are more bizarro. And I did one called, oh no, I Got Exploded Baby All Over My Favorite Sweater, which one of my favorite titles, but, and it’s 

legit all, and I kill five babies in it.

That’s, that sounds horrible. Like I should be ashamed, but I promise you I do it in the funniest way possible. You will laugh

joe: They’re a funny way to do that. 

Phrique: Feel horrible for laughing. But it is an allegory for, these are terrible like influencer parents who aren’t paying attention to their kids.

They literally put them in front of this baby monitor that basically watches them and it also a little, some their, it wasn’t tested all the way and they put something in their brain that makes the babies want off themselves. But to get away from parents that they shouldn’t have.

been born too, because Roe [00:13:00] versus Wade and all that.

So again, no matter what, there’s always gonna be a reason for it, whether I like it or not, but 

Nick: I feel like horror has always had that underlining political,? Yeah.

joe: No, you’re right. Yeah.

Geo: Yeah.

Nick: throughout all of it. It’s always had something behind it.

joe: No,

Phrique: Romero

joe: I mean, you,

Nick: like,

joe: go ahead.

Phrique: yeah, it’s like with, he wanted the zombies for like I, I, when I read about all that, I’m like, okay, so I feel less crazy because that’s just what my voice is, but I know how to get your attention with lesbian nuns and then I’ll get 

my message in there that way.

joe: and I think horror does give that space to experiment in because you’re pushing it to the edge and you’re towing that line. You know? There’s studies where, , you have to have enough of this kind of fear in it to, to engage and keep people there. The brain active, so you’re not gonna tip over to the running out.

When the people come for Nick in the theater, [00:14:00] he can stay on the edge of his fear and ride it. 

Sorry, 

I’m pointing you out. You called it out earlier.

Nick: Was that on? Were we recording during that one?

Geo: I

joe: I don’t know. Maybe. I don’t 

know. People all here and the post edit,

Nick: They’re gonna be very

joe: but Yeah.

Well, Nick said that he doesn’t get scared in movies, but the people scare him.

Geo: No, that was, we were recording

joe: Well, we have a little aside here. No, but as you go forward, oh, the point I was making, you guys screwed me up now. 

Nick: Oh no,

joe: Yeah. You guys did this on purpose. This is my phobia.

Geo: This is your greatest fear, isn’t it?

joe: sleeping. I’m gonna wake up and be like, poof, man. I was on, I was recording. And had that there, so No, but I was saying about the kind of, you, you ride that line between the fear keeping the brain engaged, , the cortex there funneling through and the person is well, I’m safe.

I know I’m safe. And so I can experience this very scary or very fearful or [00:15:00] situational scary, right? Because we see a lot of that with, social issues where you’re putting into that and then empathizing, right? So if you, especially with body horror not only that kind of gets your brain engaged and you begin to empathize with that character and you not, you go to the next level of actually feeling what they’re feeling and having that very visceral experience as you’re watching and your skin is crawling and you’re in that moment.

What would it be like? And your mind starts going, what if I was in that situation and you then everything washes away. 

Geo: I think it’s a way to, like you said, safely look fear in the eye. You know,

joe: Yeah.

Nick: I love seeing the parts where it’s oh, you just messed up and I know you have, without even going forward in this film.

joe: Right, right, right.

Nick: Like having those, what I mean, they are reactions that people would have, but it’s always something that’s like

You know, you messed up. [00:16:00] I know you messed up like everyone knows it, but would that be something that you would make that mistake during the moment, or no? Well,

joe: Well, I mean, right.

And that’s also, that’s the craft of the writer, right. And or the storyteller that will they, show their hand too much? Right? So if you show too early, and the audience can guess, right? Because really we’re, you also have your brain’s a good prediction engine. So your brain’s predicting what’s gonna happen.

And so this is where the fear comes in. And so if your brain can predict what’s happening and you’re not gonna be fearful of that, you’re not gonna think it’s even. You’ll probably start laughing at it because now you’ve realized, oh, I know exactly what’s gonna happen. So if you’re writing to that and you’re really gonna show and lean into the comedic value of it, then great.

But if you’re really trying to build suspense and the fear, then you really actually want to, not you, you want to fool people by doing the thing. I expect the creatures in the closet ’cause that’s what I expect. [00:17:00] And then when it’s not, and then it jumps out somewhere else, that’s when you go, oh crap.

Like I, I had this all wrong. So that’s when that’s a, I think that’s a good writer versus a lazy writer that goes with tropes

Nick: which I think Cabin in the Woods is the perfect example of this. And I think I’ve mentioned it

Geo: have something,

joe: bringing this up

Nick: I

love

this film 

so much. It

Geo: Okay. P, pause this. So we can’t go watch this movie and we’ll be right back.

joe: be right

Nick: listening. Immediately. Go watch Cabin in the Woods. All right. All right. They’re

back.

I think

joe: Yeah. Yeah. Woo.

Geo: That 

was great.

joe: No, I’m 

joking. 

I,

Phrique: saying.

joe: what was that 

Phrique: I get what you’re saying just about that especially pattern recognition, like we are, we’re geared to notice patterns. I feel sometimes that I.

Nick: I,

Phrique: My brain notices them more. Like I am legit a quality inspector, so that is my job is to, I can be reading, writing, whatever at work.

I [00:18:00] work like 12 hour shifts. I work with steel mill, unfortunately, and I’m legit looking for defects in the steel. And my brain will, I can be in this book and my eye will notice the little blip and I know, okay, I just did my job. So good job. But I think that we all do that. And so, especially when I’m writing, I know, and I’ve watched so many, I literally do basically watch a horror movie a day if possible.

Or jello, which, ’cause I’m a nerd for those, but I know what I would expect to happen and sometimes I want that. I want the trope because I wanna kind of see, give an homage. I love an homage. But then also. I know what you’re gonna expect. So then part of me wants to do a little yeah, I’m gonna mess with that.

So I’m gonna throw a red hand again. I’m gonna make it, you think that something’s gonna happen. And one thing with me that I don’t know if it’s a bad thing or not, but I laugh at everything. I literally make it, I shouldn’t, you should not be laughing at things that I’m writing about. And I’m the guy that like, [00:19:00] I will laugh during a giggle during a funeral.

I’m in trouble. ’cause it’s just, nope, I gotta get outta here right now. And then I’ll laugh even more because I know I’m not supposed to. So it’s just, but

joe: that reminds me of the character of Franny in Stephen King’s, the stand. And that was her, that was like her character flaw that she would laugh during these very serious moments. And so when you said that, I was like, wow, that’s a, i, that’s a character in a classic horror, 

Phrique: I mean, that would be me. I would be, you know, my, my final words are gonna be, are gonna be something smart Alec that I should not have said, but

joe: yeah.

Phrique: I gotta get it out. So, but yeah, that’s a lot of I do throw a lot of humor in even when, like I tried to do when my first stories was it was about like a priest that were getting hunted down by this girl that they had locked up.

And said that she was possessed when it was just, she knows their secrets. So that was supposed to be my most I really [00:20:00] wanted grind house. I wanted to be very just, you know, gritty and we’re not joke, no jokes, we’re not laughing. And I said something about the priests, like pancake ass or something.

And people like, like that’s the funniest thing I’ve ever read. And they’re like, that was, you weren’t

supposed to laugh, 

joe: there.

Right, right, right. Well, you gotta have

Phrique: what my brain does. I have to throw those. It’s just, but a lot of people, I like that the humor takes you, I like I’ll usually do it. I just killed like 12 drag queens and I make you love them.

And people, that’s one of the things I get a lot of compliments on is that I gave you 12 characters, but everyone has their own voice. Everyone knows what they look like. They’re very distinct and you know, people get connected to them even knowing I’m literally going to kill them. I told you I’m going ahead of time.

So then I usually throw humor in. And the, so in Gig of the Damned, it’s the killer is wearing a bedazzled ski mask. So it’s like hot pink, bedazzled ski [00:21:00] mask with leather trench coat, the gloves, the straight razor. ’cause it’s a gilo. And, ’cause I thought, you know, drag queens, if you put a ski mask on a drag queen, they’re kind of gonna look the same.

You won’t really know who’s. Under there. So, but each girl, before they die for all 12 of them, I worked in the joke that they all say in one way or another, someone got A bedazzer for Christmas. And so like I, and it’s purposely there to kind of throw you off and kind of make you like, oh, I’m laughing, I can relax.

They get the base sliced off. So that’s kind of, yeah, But I think

it’s handy and I like doing, but yeah.

joe: Yeah. Using humor to break the tension, once again, to throw off that your prediction, you’re trying to, your brain’s working to figure out and when’s the next horrific thing going to happen? And then. If you have something else, look over here. Brain. And I was waving my left hand. Is

Nick: for hand waving him?

That’s [00:22:00] what

normally 

joe: hand wa that’s right.

Nick: Yeah. I wasn’t sure.

joe: yeah, you’re right. Okay. I’ve better get, I gotta get some other symbol. Wave my foot, you know, 

Nick: the diversion of it is over here.

joe: It’s over here. But yeah, no, that’s, yeah. I think the horror part of it is interesting because you see that, in some horror, some of you don’t like it.

Nick: It really depends like on who, what kind of horror they’re going for.

And for the more intense ones, you do find comedy in it like. Just because of how over the top they can get. Yeah, 

joe: that’s right. Yep.

Nick: Like the more over the top, you want to have something to cut through it. ’cause it helps you keep going, keep reading, keep watching.

Geo: And it’s like the absurdity of it. Yeah. 

Nick: You know, if you’re having already something super absurd with the amount of killing getting done you want something like

joe: well, also if you’re riding that, if you’re riding that fair the fair, the fear train

Nick: fair Fear.

Fear, 

joe: fear, the fairy fear, fair [00:23:00] train.

Nick: fairy fear.

joe: but if you’re on that line and you could easily tip over to where you can’t watch it anymore.

You have to leave, you have to cover your eyes. You can’t enjoy the story. You gotta put the book down. Then I think it’s that intensity, there, you gotta actually throw in his humor that bring, ratchet down a little bit and give the person’s mind, the viewer or the reader a chance to catch up with everything and then have that.

And if you’re throwing this, you said you throw in a line, oh, you got bedazzler for Christmas. Then you know that repetitive line, you’re almost expecting it. And you won. It’s like the cheesy one-liners and it’s oh, like what’s gonna be the one liner?

And you then it tamps it down to a level where once again it brings your, the energy down and your fear, your brain your cortex can catch up so that you don’t hit a fight or flight response and freaks you out. So your brain can then go, okay, let’s process this. Let’s, take advantage of the machinery [00:24:00] that’s you know, running Windows 93 and, and then you go and,

Nick: oh, is that what you’re running over there?

joe: That’s what we’re running.

Nick: I thought they were the big flat disks.

joe: A floppy dis.

Geo: The big

Nick: Oh, that what they’re called. Oh, they’re called my bad.

I thought they were flat discs. actually five and

joe: a quarter floppy.

Dis. Yeah. The little, I had to explain a little save symbol that you see the little icon of save.

It’s like that’s, that was actually this, we used to save on like the floppy disk the three and a half inch, five and a quarter. Okay. This is, that’s a fear here. I’m fear fearing here a

Nick: That, that was all I was going for is let’s just hit the fears for Joe.

joe: Yes.

Geo: fear of

Nick: of that.

joe: That fear. Yes. That you have. 

Phrique: Of absurdity, what did, have you guys seen the Monkey and what did you guys think of that, if you did?

Nick: I thought it was funny. I was enjoying it. It, as I said, like I, I love the horror and I can get some good humor out of it.

joe: The Monkey, sorry.

Nick: Yeah. That came out what, like a year or two ago now.

Phrique: yeah, year or two ago it was I wanna [00:25:00] think that it was based off of a Stephen King short story.

joe: Oh, a Monkey Shine. That, that’s the 

Phrique: was just, it’s just The Monkey and it, I think it’s, it has the little like toy monkey on it and, I wanna say it was about a year or two,

Geo: Yeah. 

Oh

joe: Yeah. I think that wasn’t a story. Monkey Shines was that or that the other horror movie?

Geo: Well, that’s the older one

joe: Yeah. There was an

older one Monkey Shines that, sorry. Jesus. Louis Wee.

Phrique: Yeah, that

joe: Yeah.

Nick: The Monkey is

joe: the late eighties. Yeah. Yeah. 

So Monkey Shines was like the late eighties.

There was a movie called Monkey Shines, but Okay.

Geo: And now is this one related to the Monkey Shines?

joe: I don’t, I think it’s

Geo: I think it’s different. It’s totally a different,

Phrique: a cursed, it’s like a cursed little like monkey toy. Like 

Geo: Those are creepy.

joe: like 

Geo: all you had to show

Nick: about getting Jo that for Christmas, actually.

joe: doesn’t freak the Trilogy of Terror.

Do you guys remember that was the, that was good. That was the mini series back early eighties, I think. Late seventies.

Nick: I think my dad owned that on DVD. 

Geo: a [00:26:00] theme 

joe: thing was a little 

the doll, the

Geo: it was like a wooden 

joe: wooden, doll. And it had the little tag on it that if you, it says, don’t remove this tag, and then it comes to

Geo: Of course you remove 

Phrique: Was that the Karen? The Karen 

joe: yeah.

Phrique: Karen Blackwood. Yep. I’m not doing it because I’m on camera, but I remember seeing that as little kid and I when he did that,

joe: Right,

Nick: right. That’s

joe: That’s right. Yes. Yeah, it

almost think, 

Geo: freaked out. They 

joe: banned it 

like they had it. And so it was the first time where I think a lot of sponsors backed out.

And so the network just put it out and they had to change the ending to make it more resolved that, but that episode in particular, that series, yeah, it’s pretty, it holds up. We were just watching it not too long ago and it’s, it was like, wow, that is, that’s, , probably not something you should watch when you’re a little kid, but

Nick: I mean, I did 

Geo: I went 

joe: see The Thing in the movie when I was seven, so, you know, that’s that’s where I go in.

Phrique: Yeah, there’s like that’s first thi this is again, I try my best to not come off as such, like a pretentious douche bag, but [00:27:00] unfortunately it’s kind of in my DNA that it does. But ’cause you guys, if you grew up out here back in the day on Channel 50, they would play horror movies on the weekend.

It would just be a random one and like my mom would be working and my dad would just 

joe: Oh, hold on something.

Phrique: put it on. And one of the first horror movies I can ever remember watching was Daria Magento’s phenomenon.

And It was on, but it was, and and I mean I was, I wanna say I was probably about six or seven and I knew, ’cause I was getting so scared that you are not supposed to be watching this.

This is going to mess you up. You watch this, don’t tell mom or dad. And of course like I’m seeing. Girls getting their head shoved through windows and then off, and then there’s like a monkey, and then there’s gigantic scissors, and then there’s a guy with a messed up face. And of course my mom comes home and I’m trying to explain all this to her, and she’s just looking at me like he’s gonna need so much therapy.

[00:28:00] And which is true but but that’s very, but it did it had a lasting effect because here I am and like, that’s one of my favorite movies now where I’m like an Argento nerd and you know, I watch JS all day and I love the old, like any horror from like the seventies and eighties and even some like late sixties ones I could watch all day.

It could be the most terrible. And I still enjoyed my time.

If you show me a movie from two years ago, I’m like, I want my hour and a half back be. It was just, it’s not.

Not, it’s not there. Like we, I make fun of the 19 hundreds all the time, but that’s also like one of the best movies were so I can’t, but that’s why I said The Monkey was great because it was just so absurd.

And it’s, the deaths were so just almost like a Final Destination type deal where it’s just, they’re so absurd. So,

Nick: love The Final Destination. They’re so funny.

Phrique: I mean that, that’s one of my favorite ones. But,

so I work in a steel mill Yes. 

Nick: Every one of

Phrique: they don’t 

joe: I think I [00:29:00] only seen the first one.

Nick: Oh. You can stop

joe: I got stopped after that.

Nick: Like the, that, that is one movie that did give me a phobia from, I wanna say it was Final Destination three 

Phrique: yep, that’s the one. 

Nick: The log coming off the truck and just smashing the guy in the face.

I’m like, the amount of times I’ve been behind a truck that has a bunch of logs on it, I’m like, this is the day 

Phrique: And then for

the new one. 

joe: That

Phrique: new one they had trucks driving around with the logs and that was

joe: Oh wow.

Phrique: like, it’s genius. That’s ’cause

of course that, and it’s just, you see that and it’s nope. Yeah, the Final Destinations, a lot of people don’t like them. Those are the ones that like, I have to mentally prepare myself for them because I know my anxiety is going to be amp.

And again, I work in a steel mill, they tell us die there probably about once a month

Nick: Oh yeah. Those places are terrifying, right?

Phrique: like we literally have a memorial when you drive past because told that’s [00:30:00] why they get paid the big money and all that. ’cause people die there all the time. So the final destination ones hit me all the time. ’cause I’m like, there’s 

so many of these things that could just, yeah,

but I mean, but I love them though. But yeah.

joe: I was gonna say but with phobia, like kind of the way fear without control is a phobia. Fear with control is entertainment. And so it’s funny at that moment you’re saying with the logs, like you, you have these, I generated this phobia, and so you have this, now you’ve lost control.

’cause when you get behind a. You’re now your brain’s I’ve seen this. So instead of, and this raises a really interesting other point is that, you know, people think, oh, exposure will desensitize you, but it can have the other effect where you become sensitive 

and you 

can generate, you can go into the movie thinking, oh, I’m a, 

Geo: oh, I had never thought about that danger.

Oh, great.

joe: And then you have it, and then all of a sudden you’re, now you come out and it’s hold on I’m actually more freaked out and you [00:31:00] can’t, how do you remove this fear like this very modern fear and a lot of it really, it’s interesting and this is that, the old, I mean, I keep saying old software, our brain, old hardware, old software, because, you know, a lot of our phobias are related to, spiders and,, fear of falling heights.

You know, these things that would literally kill you. But now. More people die from, car accidents, guns not spiders. And so really why aren’t we, you don’t see people with phobia of guns or phobia of, you know, of

Nick: well what we have shark week now. Like people used to be terrified of

joe: right. 

Geo: Isn’t.

joe: it, 

Geo: I don’t know the definition of phobia, but is it phobia?

Nick: I know Joe didn’t give a list.

Geo: I know you need 

joe: no list. yeah, 

Geo: needed more definitions. But is that like when it’s a phobia, it’s not realistic? Is that I don’t, the part of it, or

joe: my am I? Well, we have a, you know, don’t Phrique you, you’re here.

This is your 

Phrique: A [00:32:00] phobia. I would, A phobia would be when it causes distress, when it causes, when it affects you and it causes you to go out of your way to avoid it, then it would be considered a phobia. And yeah, I agree with what you said about how so,

the, like a lot of people like Germophobes, we have this like I love.

love to be repulsed. And I love to write like repulsive, gross, nasty. And that’s kind of one of my claim to fame is the details that I put in, like Think Of The Damned is actually pretty tame. But the amount of detail that I go into with the deaths and the injuries, that’s just when I muting powers I guess.

But that’s what I’m known for. But when it’s like the disgusting, the ’cause and it’s coming from inside because I’m such a neat freak germophobe, and again, I work at Male and that they think it’s the funniest thing in the world, but like my re my repulsion level is so [00:33:00] easily triggered. And that’s another one of those that’s evolutionary 

because yeah, dirt equals you can, that’s how you get the plague.

That’s how you can get X, Y, z. That’s how you get food poisoning. You know, when you’re watching, I think they just redid it fear factor. And they had making smoothies with rotten bile and like brain matter and all this stuff from just like pigs, coagulated pigs, blood. And it’s I mean, then that’s it in our,

it’s in our d that you 

joe: Disgust. and Fear are kind of, they get tethered. Yeah. Yep. 

Phrique: Yeah. It’s there for a reason. 

joe: you know, our jom, the germ contamination phobias, disgusted. That’s our primal, that’s where the disgust comes from. And 

in fear 

Geo: and that’s a safety thing because then it’s supposed to keep you from licking rocks and

joe: That’s right. Don’t lick rocks, Nick.

Nick: You should lick rocks. This is for science.

joe: get superpowers that way 

unless you get a suit. No, you get a suit and a meal, then you look the rocks and you’ll get superpowers.

Nick: Hey,

joe: Hey,

Nick: suck on a rock. Don’t worry.

Phrique: There’s some people [00:34:00] that would think, okay, well then, but if I do go lick like a CTA handle 

joe: Yeah. 

Hold up. 

Phrique: Strengthen. That’ll strengthen

my. 

Nick: all, you just have to grab the gum from underneath it. It’s free gum under every bench. Guarantee it still has a little flavor in it. Yes.

Phrique: I mean, now that

could strengthen your immune system and make you 

healthier, 

joe: it could

Nick: Makes you a superhuman. Yes.

joe: But that was like Elf on Elf, the, which is a comedy when he starts eating the used gum, that, that disgust it, it was like, you were like, oh my, oh, I don’t know if I can watch this.

It like, oh my God. You’re like, oh, what is he doing?

Nick: the childish childishness of him, like really cut through on that moment, because if it was a child doing it, you’d be like, yeah, that totally makes

Geo: He was just totally naive.

joe: and you have that. I mean, it’s also the context of it, right?

Because that was, that’s a comedy. And you go, if you change the context in any way. That can easily be like this horror that’s the killer. That person there.

Nick: but you could do that with [00:35:00] damn near

anything. Right? Right.

Have you seen Friends? Without the laugh track? It makes Ross seem like an absolute psychopath.

Sorry,

joe: Don’t watch Friends.

Nick: just watch the clips of it without the laugh track.

joe: I’m trying to make me watch Friends,

Nick: It makes it

joe: look like

Nick: 10

Geo: right?

joe: Yeah, I 

can 

Nick: hundred folds better. Like I would not watch it if it wasn’t that funny. Because you’re like, he is psychotic.

joe: Yeah. 

Phrique: my teacher just made us watch the Star Wars ending with the music and without it to test that out. ’cause I’m in a this semester I’m in mass, mass communication mass media and communication, and then the psychology of marketing, which both great classes. Like they’re, I like, I’m a nerd for this stuff.

So, it just so happens I need it for my degree also. But yeah, she’s having us do all that stuff where it’s like, yep, once you take the music out, they’re just kind of standing there in front of these, like they’re getting the, and then of course I don’t chewbacca’s still making his random noises.

joe: Right, right, [00:36:00] right,

Phrique: does, but I mean, yeah, it, it does make a, I mean, it, it makes the movie, it makes the moment, so I get it. I

joe: Yeah.

You add all that. I mean, music really does, I mean, so if you change, you know, you go to a minor key versus a major key in music that changes the whole scene. So it could be the happiest scene ever, but if they, the music isn’t a minor key, which is, traditionally thought as sad, depressing, tonality.

You then feel internally our bodies and we will kind of respond to that and set that context up for you. So really, in movies, that’s why in the award shows , people that do sound and all that. You know, they should get their flowers because that, that sets, , as Nick’s saying that and re this sets the tone of the scenes that have that impact.

And that’s, in movies, when you have a book, you don’t really have a soundtrack. So you, your words are,

Phrique: I’m writing, like I’m trying to, I do wanna set the mood where it’s okay, is this happy and upbeat or is this, you know, making, but then at the same time again. [00:37:00] I’m a weirdo, I’m a freak, so I’m gonna I’ve had deaths come in the middle of just oh, yay. You know, this is a, you know, baby shower.

joe: Yeah. 

Phrique: But but it’s like, I mean, 

joe: I was gonna say, that’s what you do with music too, so you can have, you can be very happy, uplifting. And then, a head goes rolling across the floor and everyone’s looking at it like, what just happened? We were just playing, good time. 

Good time,

Nick: I think this is where the Christmas horror comes in perfectly.

Which horror? Christmas horror. Like Santa Slay

I know we passed it already, but it always has that jolly music and then

Santa’s putting something through someone’s head.

Geo: Well, that’s a, that’s a new thing that they’re doing a lot of, like on Fallout, like they have these scenes where it’s these just really horrible things are happening, or really scary things.

And then the music is like 

Nick: just the game

in general.

Geo: But I, and I love that. I love that like where it’s at. You know, 

joe: because

Nick: what, when you’re playing the game, you have the radio [00:38:00] on your Pit Boy, so whatever’s playing while you’re doing these crazy things. Is just how the scene is.

Geo: I just love that. Yeah.

joe: I was gonna say like also, you were saying about the eighties in horror in the eighties, back

Nick: back when,

joe: when, stop it, man. All right. Stop it. In our, but you, I think the, you had the psychological, I mean, a lot of ’em were much more psychological.

That was the story. You weren’t reliant on CGI and other effects like that. A lot of practical effects. So it felt a little more, visceral and real. I’m gonna go to my man, John Carpenter and The Thing , and so you go there and the music just to the tone of that music, just go through there and you have it.

It wasn’t any, there was really no upbeat. It was winter, it was depressed. You have that. The other one that comes to mind is a Event Horizon, which is like a horror ghost ship in space. And the music. But you had the coloring of that wasn’t that puke greeny just [00:39:00] haze that hung over everything, like in those scenes.

And it was like you felt sick a little bit like going through there. And so I think you had that, , these kind of, when you play with that, you have the story. And I think a lot of movies now, they’re in high def, they’re very bright. They don’t have that grit to ’em, and you , then it pulls you out of the horror a little bit.

I don’t know. That’s my opinion there. And I think you’re getting back to some of the grit. I think we’re starting to see that a little more. Well, like in movies,

Geo: the Duffer Brothers came out and said, you know, change these settings on your new

Phrique: Oh yeah,

I heard about that. 

Geo: TVs because it’s messing up. Yeah.

Nick: Joe, I’m so glad you brought up John Carpenter because he’s writing and conducting the score for a video game.

Toxic Commander. I think I sent it to you. I am so excited to see how he. Translate to a video game because he has such an atmosphere with him

joe: Except the thing he didn’t do to music.

Right. So that was he didn’t, that was was it Ennio Morricone,

Morricone 

Geo: Morricone

Nick: don’t remember. [00:40:00] 

joe: But yeah, like that is something that I think will translate so well because he’s a whole world to build.

Yeah. I’m gonna get my Thing fan card taken, but

Nick: Yeah, probably.

Phrique: Video game nerd too. I’m excited for that then, ’cause I didn’t even hear about

Nick: Yeah. I sent it to Joe on Instagram. He doesn’t look at anything I send him

joe: Oh, well I get, I just go on Instagram now. So little that’s like a horror show in itself. But it’s a different topic there. But

Nick: Georgia, I do have a quick question for you. Oh

Geo: Oh yeah.

Nick: When was the first time you saw a horror film? I.

Geo: That’s a good question. 

Nick: Because I know Joe’s seen horror, young

Phrique Frank has 

seen horror Young. I have 

Geo: I don’t think I saw too young. 

joe: You say you went to see, didn’t you Alien ?

Geo: I did. Oh yeah. I did go see Alien, but I didn’t watch it. 

Nick: What? It was

Geo: What? I was so scared.

No, I was so scared that the whole I, yes, the whole time I was like this and I was [00:41:00] watching and I was watching other people reacting 

joe: But You got to hear it though. You got to experience it. 

Geo: were worse than anything else. All those,

joe: the atmosphere and Alien. Is, haunting as you go through it. Yes. But yeah, I was like I

Geo: Yes I did. But seriously, I was like, I might as well not have been there because I couldn’t watch it at all.

joe: Evasion of Body Snatchers. That’s,

Geo: I, that was yeah,

joe: see that 

Geo: fairly young. Yeah. But obviously a rerun. 

joe: Yeah.

Geo: don’t I want,

Nick: I wasn’t gonna ask How old you were 

joe: and that’s a, like a,

Nick: any of these, like

joe: body horror. I think

Geo: I can tell you my favorite well, one of my very all time favorite horror movies.

Well, I have a couple and they’re very traditional. Everybody’s favorite, but Rosemary’s Baby.

joe: Yeah. definitely. That’s just like it. 

Geo: And The Shining,

Nick: But like, how is your relationship with horror?

Geo: What do you mean?

I don’t think,

Nick: do you seek it out? Is it something that you’re like, oh, if something [00:42:00] is there, I’m gonna go see

Geo: I think I might have been well to movies. That’s, hands down, those are like my favorite movies, you know, I do, I love scary movies, but I just 

Phrique: to see if you got messed up. Like we got messed up.

Like 

Nick: I 

didn’t know if there was any correlation.

Geo: No, I, but I probably, but as far as reading horror, that’s where like fairly new for me. And it’s and I wanna put it all on on Grady Hendrix, I started reading his stuff and then I just kept reading all of his books and stuff.

And then it led to I, so I’m really enjoying horror right now.

joe: I think also a lot of people don’t get into horror because they are worried about kind of the grossness of it.

And it’s not all I, I was talking to someone about The Thing and I was like, , there are scenes in there and they are emotional. But that’s really, you get caught up in the psychology of these people trying to figure out who’s who’s real, who’s not. And horror

[00:43:00] there is this kind of the splatter, there’s this splash air. I mean that genre exists, but there is a heart that comes down The Shining. You know, it had its scenes, but really it’s a psychological examination of cabin fever to someone. Then they have the ghost story kinda aspect in there.

But really, horror has this kind of play and I think that’s really exploring fear and creating a safe space is tell people, oh yeah, there are horror movies that you can go into.

Geo: Well, there’s 

joe: really, um, you 

Geo: so many horrible, like monsters and things

real life that it is nice to be able to watch. Monsters on, 

joe: and those monsters are usually personifications of human real fears. Right. 

Geo: But there’s something comforting about being able to see that and I don’t know.

Phrique: So that’s where my little nerd flag flies up because that’s one of the main things, like whenever somebody asks in a little, you know, books of horror group or whatever, that’s when I jump in because I’m like, so. My theory [00:44:00] is like the denr of well, that’s happening to them and not me.

So that, that gives you a little brain. And then it’s almost like you get, you are giving yourself anxiety as you’re reading, watching, but then you know it’s gonna come to an end and you know the lights are gonna come on and then you get to a leave intact and fine. So then it’s almost like a rollercoaster where, okay, so I survived that.

And for the little anxiety balls of nerves like me, like now I just learned, don’t run upstairs. And if there’s, if you see like a glinting knife on a cabin, on a countertop let’s put that away.

Nick: If you could see them, they can see you.

Phrique: right. So you, like I, so I take little like I say, I’m gonna write that down, so now I know.

Don’t ever do that. For certain PI think there’s also ’cause I was gonna do I was gonna go for mys ID before before this whole writing thing came up and it this a lot more. And then I also found out you have to like [00:45:00] intern for four years and just

joe: oh, so that’s for folks who aren’t familiar with the jargon. What? What is that? It’s ID

Phrique: a ID is just basically a PhD in 

psychology. And, 

but it’s a lot of work and

honestly it’s kind of, it’s kind of doing it so I can be doctor Phrique and it’s I’ll just be Phrique and I’m just gonna write books about Lesbian

joe: It’s kind of cool, the doctor part

Nick: Octa Park.

Phrique: but I wanted to do, I mean, I was gonna say I mean, you 

know, 

joe: I, yeah.

Phrique: research, I looked up the, I saw the, it said botany and then, like all that. I’m such a science nerd that would be so cool. But then when you have to get down to the nitty gritty and like the random the random testing and all that, I’m just like I just wanna find like the results. It’s just, yeah. It’s 

Nick: I don’t 

Phrique: I’m like, 

Nick: Do it all. 

Geo: Just cut to the chase.

joe: academia is there. No I think there’s some amount of love and horror involved in getting your PhD and making it through there,

Nick: you saying that it was a horror [00:46:00] story to getting it, or what?

joe: Yeah, sure. 

Let’s go 

Geo: Those long nights,

Nick: those

joe: it’s, no, it’s a,

Phrique: anybody who is a doctor, I completely, I give them all their flowers. I’m like you went through some that, so I commend you for that. But just and then my dissertation was gonna be on basically what you talked about. Where, when did we take this? Emotion that is literally built into us and turned it into something that we are, we’re going on rollercoasters to 

try and 

bring things that our ancestors got when they were trying to like, run away from like a Saber two tiger.

Like, why would we, they’re looking at us like, what’s wrong with you? Just stay in your house and you know, hoard, hoard, grain. You know, don’t like why would you do such a thing? But I think it’s interesting to show that what we’ve done with it. But then I also think, like what you talked about, I think we’ve almost over

overs sensitize ourselves, where the movies from the eighties, they were more subdued and you were able to get more quiet [00:47:00] horror moments in where now it’s if you’re not like, you know, splitting someone’s head in half then, and I’m talking about me I’m the,

I’m guilty here.

’cause it’s if I don’t see someone get their face ripped off, then I’m gonna sleep.

So. 

joe: right. 

Geo: It’s like that’s the whole kind of that’s how splatter punk really came out, because isn’t it just like how far can we take this? How much can we show? And how, you know,

joe: that line of, of fear and horror and disgust and kind of

Geo: and is it also maybe because of like attention spans now you know what I mean?

Or that there is such a big kill count and almost, every movie you see. You know, you like a John Wick movie when you you can’t keep track, so you’re just, you have to make it more and more.

joe: Well, I think you have also with lot of splatter is the body horror and kind of that aspect of it and going in there and that [00:48:00] transition as you go through, was it Cronenberg principle about, make it slow, make it last, make it very and so you begin to buy into that.

And I think that pulls you in watching this transformation happen in front of you and in your own mind. You know, it’s I should look away. I don’t want that. Like the moral, like I said, the moral, these morals come in this is not what I want. This is not the path I’m gonna take.

I’m gonna be a better person for seeing this and 

Geo: I hope so. I hope that,

joe: I mean, I guess you could come out I’m gonna go do that.

Nick: Oh, I’m gonna go Dexter someone.

joe: let’s go. But I think the body horror is really that aspect, and it doesn’t, I mean, it’s, it is, it’s a look away thing. I should look away, but really you’re like, you know,

Nick: it’s watching a train wreck,

joe: right. That’s right. Yeah. Yep. And, you see it, , The Fly with Jeff Goldblum and Tina Davis, one of, you know, one of my favorite kind of, once again in the ni I think that was in the nineties, somewhere in 

there.

Nick: long ago.

joe: dude, can you stop, can you

just stop?

All right.[00:49:00] 

Phrique: Did they have to crank the movie? The 

projector, 

joe: Someone’s back there

Nick: You have to keep saying the year. I mean, oh,

Phrique: mean, but I can’t, like She supposed to Fly. I’m gonna 

Nick: that 80? No,

joe: I didn’t think it could have been late eighties.

Phrique: yeah, that sounds about right.

Geo: I think 

Nick: was, early 

Geo: no, I think it was eighties. 86.

Nick: 0 6, like 

Geo: I’m like mid eighties.

Nick: When did the Fly Two come out?

joe: Oh man, come on. No one knows

Phrique: Yeah.

joe: dude. Don’t

do that. 

Don’t tell anyone. 

Don’t 

watch Fly two dog.

Nick: I say watch

joe: it.

Geo: Can’t

Nick: promise anything.

Phrique: Google it.

joe: Yeah. Right. It’s 

Geo: I do remember seeing the original fly when I was fairly young and that yeah, that ending, oh my gosh.

Nick: The

joe: original is that fifties? Yeah. Yeah. Right. Late fifties. Yeah. And Invasion Body Snatchers. The original, the 70, the seventies

one 

Geo: one always freaks me out. Yeah. One, it

joe: was cool was like The Blob, like I haven’t seen a new Blob movie in a while.

[00:50:00] Like you had that kind of,

Phrique: The colored one. The colored version of it. The ’cause the black and white was the original and then they made like the first color one. I remember watching it on fox, like way back in the day and then Yeah. On that messed me up. Any, anybody who I 

love, but just, yeah. Those are the ones where just 

joe: Some gelatinous

thing just takes you over it’s like Jello attacking you. 

Phrique: or like the 

joe: I went to Jello. Just, oh, I love The Stuff. You’re the first person to mention.

The stuff is that is one of my favorites where, I mean, it’s also like people just eating some stuff that bubbles out the ground. It’s let me just 

Phrique: Yeah. Like, I 

mean, 

joe: up on here.

Phrique: I kind of wanna know where the sausage, how the sausage is made. Let me, I’m looking for this before I know you know, it makes me think of Cool Whip when that was like 

joe: yes. Or the, what is it? Fluff? The marshmallow whip stuff. Was

Geo: Oh 

Phrique: yeah, the, 

joe: yeah.

fluff. Fluffer, 

fluffer, whatever. Not fluffer. That’s something else.

Nick: Joe. What? What was that? One more time?

Phrique: yeah I watched that I wanna say a couple years ago, and then it’s just yeah, [00:51:00] that’s that’s gonna make me look at food differently. And it’s just and it’s funny too because so I was gonna be a nutrition major before way back, so then I’m like, I’m looking at cool if oh, the hydrogenated oils.

It’s then you watch the stuff and I’m like, okay. So now I’ve just, that’s a whole other thing I gotta worry about.

joe: yeah. And when that movie, when I came out once again, I think that was in the late eighties, ultra processed foods, things like that, hadn’t reached a kind of the xge of consciousness as it has now. And people are really thinking about and oh, these are unhealthy.

Maybe we shouldn’t be eating these things or putting, crazy dyes in everything.

Geo: Although we went ahead and did 

Nick: The nineties, they had some crazy dyes and

joe: We did. That’s what I’m saying. I

Geo: but he’s 

joe: it was 

the moral warning oh.

Geo: and we did not take the warning and we should have, it

joe: it. 

It was 

a B movie, so, eh, you know,

Geo: I don’t think enough people saw it.

joe: no Avatar. So that’s a

Nick: people see an avatar, what,

joe: The $1.5 billion worth of [00:52:00] people have seen it.

Geo: Yes.

joe: Yes.

Phrique: difi, but I just, that’s it. It’s, I’m such a I’m a stickler in my ways where it’s just, I can’t do sci-fi like I did in my

first like, scientific 

joe: what’s wrong with sci-fi.

Phrique: But I don’t, that’s where, again, I’m a nerd, like in disguise, but sci-fi is just I play Pokemon. I, you know?

joe: We have a lot of sci-fi too that cross over in the horror. So it’s not like you just have, you gotta be straight sci-fi. So I think sci-fi gets a bad rap because of like hard sci-fi. Where, you know, a author or whatever move they’ll spend many pages describing the engine design.

And it’s not plot driven or not character driven. I think there’s a lot of sci-fi that now, you know, especially the speculative, if you wanna separate it out, where you 

do have these kind of, dystopian where you do have these stories that kind of go and you have all the crossovers where you’re mixing with horror, you’re mixing with fantasy.

And so I do think it’s, I think sci-fi got this kind of bad rap, but really it’s a very horror, [00:53:00] you know, I was just talking about horror, right.

Phrique: like, Dead Space is one of like my favorite like games ever. I played all, 

Nick: game.

Phrique: I played like the Callisto other one

Nick: Oh, Callisto protocol.

Phrique: Like I played all those like Annihilation was great. That’s and all that. And it’s funny, I had to write, so I had to write my first two sci-fi horror stories.

And the first again, movies from the 19 hundreds I did the son of Barbarella so I made Barbarella’s 

joe: Barella’s, 

Phrique: very love friendly son. He has the same taste of his mother. We’ll say that. So it’s basically that. But then I threw in like a ulu tie in with that, where it’s like he’s trying the story called, who Is My Space Daddy?

And it’s just trying to go back and find out it’s, who’s trying to find out who his actual fatheBarbarellacause Barella

got around, so like I tied that in. And then I did a story called when the Moon Hits Your Eye, and it’s about an asteroid [00:54:00] that. In 1969 in Hollywood, it just broke apart and it hit five different people at the same time.

And it’s basically done in like a news like a newspaper. But I somehow found a way to make it really scathing. Like one of them happened to be, you know, a woman was she’s at a her garden party and she just got done kind of making racist comments towards her maids. And it just so happens the asteroid flies through her head.

So, that I mean, that, that’s the kind of stuff that my brain comes up with. I don’t know. Good, good is kind of one of

those, 

joe: gotta be good, right? I mean that’s, you know, we don’t have to put it in a binary category of good or bad. That’s I think it’s just, 

Phrique: the CPD where I’m like, okay, so we’re gonna be quiet. We’re just gonna, it is 

what it. 

joe: it. Right. So I want, I was gonna touch on one other aspect while I was doing some research for this, and it was just, I like the phrasing. The uncanny valley of flesh is kind of, and so you guys know. [00:55:00] Uncanny Valley of Fish. And so it’s this idea that when you look at the things that are personified in a human form, that they’re not quite human, and it triggers that deep unease.

Oh. And so you go, so that’s what it’s called, the uncanny valley of flesh. And so, yeah. 

Geo: Who, who coined the

Phrique: just thinking about it. Yep.

joe: I don’t know who,

Geo: Well, I mean, I’m just curious like where that 

joe: it. 

Nick: can you give examples and Yeah.

joe: I mean, a lot of it, it starting out with like robotics, 

Phrique: Well, human sex, human sex dolls is what, right now is what,

joe: sex styles. There you go. I mean, if we get back to it,

Phrique: on where it’s yeah, I, there’s, when you said that, I think I might actually know of the scientist who was, she was studying that, where kind of, she was mainly talking about these human sex dolls and the uncanny and she was saying uncanny, uncanny valley as in like a sex innuendo.

But yeah, it’s kind of, it’s in that it’s in that

vein. 

joe: the Japanese robotics professor [00:56:00] Mahi Moori in 1970.

Geo: Wow. And then that is just so poetic when you’re thinking about now talking about AI and things, that’s just, yeah.

Phrique: Well, so 

Nick: Yeah.

Phrique: talk about Un Valley 

joe: what 

Phrique: Well, 

yeah. ’cause I mean, when you see, when you look at AI and you can tell that one eye is lower than the 

other, 

joe: right. Yes. Yes. It’s almost it, and it, I mean, I guess the thing also is that if you just had a purely alien creature that comes and it looks humanlike, you accept it, and you begin to think, okay, this is a humanlike thing. But then any, even movements, like if the weird, like the weird you have the weird girl in the hallway that runs kind of weird at you.

That Why are you looking at me like that, Nick? know what I’m talking about?

Nick: Yeah, totally.

Geo: Yeah. Or like the weird running in Weapons. That’s

joe: In weapons. Right. Any kind of 

that 

it gives you, it causes, like this une [00:57:00] it causes this kind of, you’re like, hold on, this isn’t, something’s not right.

And your brain’s like processing it. Maybe we should get ready to run ourselves or to fight. You know, you’re starting to process that and think about it. And it is that play where you go and the and the body, heart, once again, you get into that, this kind of thing where you’re right, you have offset features or eyes or other weird appendages aren’t quite placed.

Right. And you go, hold on. They’re almost, they’re 90% correct, but you know, that, that part of it, but yeah.

Phrique: Well, before you jump off that, and I know I just, I even asked you beforehand, please don’t let me say something. I’m not supposed to give away something I’m not. But I already talked about the story I did called when the Moon Hit Your Eye, one of my art pieces that I’m showing off in. I’m gonna post it in two weeks so you guys can we’ll call it like a little bit of a preview, but this is the art that I did for it.

joe: Oh, nice. 

Oh, wow. Yeah. That has a very Juni Ito 

Phrique: I was going for meets [00:58:00] our,

so, that’s, 

joe: Yeah.

Yeah. Like 

Geo: Like a

Phrique: basically the story where I said there was like, that was the garden party lady where she just got done and, you know, everyone looked, look at me and then, and that’s part of the story where it’s just, but that uncannyness of just so she looks fine, but where’s that other part of her head?

But it’s just 

Phrique: that’s the part that it makes my skin crawl, but also I write it and I like it and I want to make other people suffer with it. So I don’t really know what that says about me, but but I keep at it ’cause I think I’m pretty good at it. So, and even with the art, like I love how, I think it’s beautiful, but also, you know.

Geo: are you are you working on any like graphic novel? Like since you are an artist and you write the stories? I mean, is that,

Nick: that,

Phrique: I would love to. I just, this really just started popping up because I just started doing my own book covers. So I ’cause I had two, my first two covers were done by other people. And then I did my cover for Shiver me Timbers, which you can kind of see the poster behind me. But, so I did [00:59:00] that one, and then I did I

joe: some of that in the show notes.

Phrique: this is my new one that I just did the cover for, so it’s called Crisp By Your Name.

So I did cover and then that cover

joe: Yeah. Very cool. Yep. Really neat.

Phrique: so 

this is one of the, that’s, and that’s just a it’s literally an office romcom about bloody Mary, but I’m calling it a rom-com with a body count. And I, it literally just it’s a rom-com but

joe: body count. As in 

Geo: people dying.

joe: dying, not people you have relations

Phrique: count

is 29 29. 

Nick: Maybe both.

joe: both.

Phrique: 29 minor and seven co-eds suffer gruesome deaths in this many abominations.

joe: There you go.

Phrique: it is a romcom. You’re gonna laugh and you’re gonna feel heartstrings, but also

joe: Yeah.

Phrique: bloody Mary. So,

joe: Kinda like a like John Walters Waters.

Waters. 

Geo: having a hard time tonight. John 

joe: Yeah.

John. That’s what I said.

Geo: said Walters. I said,

joe: I correct it. I self-correct it right immediately and said, Waters,

Geo: [01:00:00] No, I, yeah, no, and I love him. And he’s the leading,

Nick: say, I didn’t say anything.

joe: He

Geo: the leading person about disgust and like making things as revolting as possible.

And he, I don’t know if the quote, but basically you can’t kill people in real life, but you can write about it. And that’s a lot more, that’s a lot more

joe: or, I mean, it’s safe.

Yeah. Yeah. But yeah,

Nick: I

Phrique: I, my uh, style and writing is basically John Waters meets Chuck Puk meets Clive Barker. That is 

joe: Nice.

Phrique: like I, I mean I just, I still savor that because it’s that’s, that is, it’s very close because, and they’re big influences to me. But yeah, I would love to do the graphic novel. That’s gonna be something that’s probably down the line, but I have so many things going on that I should not be, like, I have I have six stories I’m supposed to be working on.

I, you know, there’s, I have to make gig of the damn two Electric [01:01:00] Boogaloo and I literally, that’s like a joke. I keep saying Electric Boogaloo, ’cause that was a horrible movie, but, so now I have to call it Gig of the Damn Two Electric Boogaloo because I did it so much. But I did the artwork for like I did in the books.

Now I’m starting to put artwork that I’ve done in, so we’re almost there. Like I may have to get there, but. It’s just weird because I was always an artist, like growing up, and then I had to stop ’cause of work and all that. And this just kind of started up again, and I didn’t realize it until someone told me like, oh yeah you’re an artist now.

But I’m still new that it still even feels kind of weird to call myself an author. Kinda is, but that might be like a little bit the imposter syndrome, but it’s five books, so I guess you could

Geo: Yeah. Right, right.

joe: Yep. It happens,

Phrique: but but we’re getting we’re getting there. But yeah, I just, I have so many ideas and it’s just, I gotta spit ’em out.

So I’m having fun doing it and I’m getting a lot of grief feedback on it. So people are praising my brain. I’m like, Hey mom, just so you [01:02:00] know, say my brain is great I’m not, he never said JJ your brain is bad. But she kind of gave me the little, you know, the mar noises, the like I sent her this and she’s that is.

She’s I’m afraid to say that. That’s beautiful, but it is. But also, you know,

Geo: right.

Phrique: kind of secretly waiting for me to so when are you gonna start writing? Like normal, nice things. But 

also 

she has, I’m reading her Siam Timbers and she needs to know what happens. I told her, I’m not reading you the sex scenes ’cause it’ll, that was my first throw around a corner.

But like that.

joe: That’s a horror in itself, right? So 

Phrique: Yeah, exactly. I’m just like, 

joe: that’s a, that’s kind of,

Geo: That’s a whole new genre of horror.

Phrique: me and my friend wrote a story, my first collaboration, it’s called In the Club. We’re all monsters. And it’s literally me and my friend Asher, we’re both dating Dorian Gray and it’s like the boy is mine where we don’t find out till we get to the club that we’re dating him.

And then it just [01:03:00] becomes like a bloodbath because there were party favors involved that tap into our biggest fears. So my biggest you have, we have to basically fight our biggest fears. So. Spiders, hobos and clowns. That’s mine. And so we built it into a big, gigantic story. And I mean, it’s very funny because it’s just, yeah, that’s, I’m doing stuff you’re not supposed to.

’cause I love breaking a fourth wall. I love writing stories. You’re really not supposed to, but that’s kind of what my claim to fame is. So I’m just gonna

Geo: That’s 

Phrique: keep doing it. Why not?

Geo: And now you guys, you met because of Slay the Lake, right?

That was the

event that you were, and

joe: give, yep, go ahead.

Geo: No, I just, I, for people that don’t really know about

joe: Yeah.

Phrique: I mean, The Slay the Lake one is the one that, it’s local, so I love it. But they. They reached out to me and said, you know, would you like to? And I’m [01:04:00] like, yes, this is, this sounds like right up my alley.

And you know, their whole thing is that they, you know, in everything it’s hard to see diversity, it’s hard to see, you know, they’re very LGBTQ plus because again, like I said at the beginning we’re kind of told in uncertain terms, you should be more quiet, kind of tone it down. And so that’s when I think, well then guess what?

I gotta be like 

extra gay now. 

Geo: right,

right, 

Phrique: up for it. So but that whole thing was like, they wanna be inclusive, they wanna celebrate diversity and they wanna support the community. And that’s, I’ve, I did their first event and basically all their events. So I’ve kind of become like their new mascot which I’m like honored to be because like.

I’m not even allowed at like family weddings or like funerals. So it’s to know that like I’m being like invited to these is just,

Geo: That’s awesome. So how long have they been.

Phrique: I wanna say now it’s been about it’s been over a year and then [01:05:00] so they’re doing the next one is I wanna say it’s the April

joe: 18th, I think.

Phrique: Yep. I think that’s it. April 18th, 19th.

joe: April 18th. 

Phrique: Okay.

Geo: And that’s in Wisconsin, right? Kenosha.

joe: Have you guys

Phrique: been and you’ve been to the Final Girl bar?

Geo: Uhuh.

joe: I have not. No. No.

Phrique: It is. So. Okay. it’s like a horror movie.

Nerds, wet Dream because it’s just there. There’s the walls, like I’ve,

joe: I

Phrique: I have all the pictures posted, like each bathroom is like, one of them is themed with just, it’s all red. And then with red lights, and then the other one’s green, and then there’s murals everywhere. There’s pictures of they’ve got all these different the pinball games with Jason it’s just all horror themed.

That’s where

Geo: That’s so cool.

Phrique: two events there, and that’s where the next one’s gonna be. And they’re,

I’m

there to work, but it’s fun

Geo: Yeah, I wanna go. Yeah, I

joe: think 

Phrique: and then it’s like again, [01:06:00] like I kind of learned I like pedaling my nonsense. So it’s like I get to walk up and then people walk up to me and I’m just like, you know, killer drag queens, lesbian nuns.

I don’t know how to sell 

Geo: that’s all you had to say. That’s

joe: it. Right?

Phrique: Yep.

Oh, and then, I mean, 

joe: Yeah. 

Right. 

You had me at drag queens. No.

Phrique: yeah, I was gonna say, I got my fan that I had to get

joe: had there. It is.

Geo: That’s awesome.

joe: So

Phrique: so that’s kind of, that, that’s kinda what I’m known for, so. Yep. But

it’s been, it’s been. 

joe: Yeah. 

Geo: And be around that kind of that community and people that are, you know, fans of that, that just has to be just such a great,

joe: yeah.

Yeah. We’ll put all that we’ll put in the show notes that comes out so people know where to go and go make it up there in episode, you know, just a couple 

Phrique: the one. I wouldn’t have thought, you know, you think when you’re gonna become an au an author that you’re going to, you don’t think about the social aspect. You gotta be on social media. You have to do all that. These are the one things where I’m just like, this is, it feels

joe: nice because

Phrique: because it’s like you’re being, it’s a safe space, but [01:07:00] also like you’re being basically celebrated.

’cause it’s like, yep, we’re going to

joe: right.

Phrique: We got stuff to say. We have books to put out. And it just, they’ve been very supportive. And au the the authors that we’ve had like AJ Humphreys, we’ve had Cynthia Plao,

Geo: Uhhuh,

Phrique: mean, there.

Geo: yeah, I just finished her book.

joe: Yeah. I was at the, it was at in one in Tinley Park more recently. 

Yeah. So last 

year 

Phrique: That one was awesome. We always have a We always have a drag queen there. We had a drag queen that did that was Krampus

Geo: That’s awesome. Yeah.

Phrique: they just I even told ’em like, and you guys are new at this. You guys are doing a great job. So

just, 

Geo: awesome.

Phrique: lucky.

I’m very lucky that, you know, they, I kind of became a mascot.

So it’s been anyone that I can get to that I can don’t have worker’s school, I will be there, but I will, yeah. It’s so much fun.

joe: Yeah, as Georgie, I mean, that Jesse Rose, that was who? That’s who I knew from and Connected Phrique and

Geo: and I That’s nice. Yeah. She

joe: [01:08:00] So yeah, she was doing that and, 

Phrique: and Reeb just they’re killing it. So now, like I said, I’m the little, I’m the mascot, 

so why not?

joe: Cool.

Geo: From Beyond press was part of it too, from

joe: Press was there, right?

Yep. Yeah. So Mike was

Geo: So that’s a nice connection. Yeah.

joe: Yep. Yep. So, and

Phrique: So, I mean, the whole thing is that it, the, I think we had 200 pounds of like food that we donated from the Crapes market. A lot of them, one goes towards the, their L-G-B-T-Q Center lake County, then the Trans Law Center. I mean, it’s

joe: Yep.

Phrique: really can’t, I mean, I, it sounds like I’m giving a commercial, but it’s like I’m proud to be, I’m writing such terrible, horrible things, but I mean, it’s been, it’s giving back too.

So

Geo: Yeah.

joe: Yeah. That’s what it’s about. I mean, I think that’s that’s part of it in the community and writing and art can be a very solo isolating event when you get in your creative space. So to go out, like you said, and find like-minded people who in a [01:09:00] safe space, you can celebrate your work, celebrate other people who are, you know,

Geo: And has a diverse message,

you know, it’s screw it.

We’re not gonna be afraid. I mean, that’s Yeah.

Nick: Especially in these times

joe: Especially these times.

Nick: it’s a real horror story. Now,

joe: the real horror story. We’re living

Geo: And they want

joe: from the eighties, seventies, and eighties. Movies have prepared us for today. We’re ready to go.

I almost need some

Geo: I don’t know I am not feeling very 

joe: zombies show up. 

I’m in my, I’m in my mode, man.

Phrique: So think,

take the but that’s what

Nick: I

Geo: mean. But that’s what everybody, everything is telling you be afraid right now. Right. And that’s, and so, you know, if you can give people this kind of

joe: kind of gotta be, you gotta be the one that’s you know what, it’s gonna work

Geo: Screw it, we’re gonna

joe: up. We, that’s all we gotta make it to, is the daytime. That’s what the horror movies have taught us that make it to the daytime and you’re gonna be the final person.

Geo: and there’s gonna be,

Nick: gonna roll really suck.

joe: All right. We’re gonna

Nick: to [01:10:00] come

joe: the end of this horror fest.

Geo: yep.

joe: Any last thoughts, Nick? You always

Nick: yeah.

So, what would be your the one phobia that has happened in real life for you?

Geo: Do

Nick: Do you, how open are you feeling? Do you want to share your scared times?

Phrique: I mean.

Nick: Have you had any?

Phrique: gonna come off looking terrible because again I have hobo phobia, which is fear of hobos and I feel terrible ’cause it doesn’t make any sense. But in, I, I mean I, it’s almost like they know it. So I, in the city, it just so happens they kind of seek me out and it’s just, I kind of lock up.

But no, I like no clowns. You know, it’s kind of one of those I’m the type where if you scare me, I’m not like, Ooh, I’m scared, like I’m gonna punch you. it’s one of those getaways from me. Luckily, no, but I’m not gonna go to these haunted houses and have someone jump out of me ’cause you’re 

asking me. 

joe: Right. That’s right.

Phrique: But no, 

that’s, I will say [01:11:00] luck, luckily. And I hope, knock on wood, I got wood.

joe: They have a, for the listeners, you have a horror movie book that you would go, here’s a couple you should just watch. If you’re not, if you’re not into the genre, maybe let’s say that, you know, something that,

Phrique: Just off the top of my head The Monkey was great. I love When Evil lurks. That’s one of my like, that’s like my new favorite one now. It was High Tension before, but When Evil Lurks was just great. Diallo wise, like old stuff, Blood and Black Lace is great, you know, deep red, any, but again, I’m a nerd.

Don’t get me started on that stuff. Cheerleader Camp, like if you want like a perfect this is what a slasher like epitome. That’s, yeah, that’s that. And bookwise, I would just say Hunter by Charlie Jacob Clyde Barker. Anything like I, for someone who makes fun of the 19 hundreds so much Sure.

Like all that stuff, self.[01:12:00] 

Geo: What about you, Nick?

Nick: I’m gonna go video game route. I’m gonna say Resident Evil. Which one? I’d say seven, which is Biohazard. That

joe: You didn’t say Doom, man. Come on, let’s go classic

Nick: I, again, you know, I’m not on the floppy disc, but I do love Doom,

joe: It was on

Geo: So do you have a phobia? 

Nick: Honestly I think it is just major crowds.

Never been one to be

like, oh, I ha I can feel that. Yeah. 

I’m good with small crowds. So once it gets real big, I’m like, all right. My anxiety’s up,

joe: Yeah.

Nick: I think more than four people.

joe: Georgia.

Nick: I

Geo: I don’t know. I think one of my greatest phobias is being in water over my. 

Nick: my. 

joe: Mm. You 

know, deep water. Mm-hmm. 

Nick: I’m 

Geo: really I’m really scared of that. Yeah.

Nick: Media.

Geo: Well, like I already said, Rosemary’s Baby and The Shining, but

Nick: what about you, Joe?

joe: Yeah, phobias. You know, I’m [01:13:00] not a big crowd person either.

I don’t know. If I don’t know if I have a phobia. 

Nick: it, It’s a weird

joe: it. Yeah. It’s like kind of, I, but you’re right, I don’t seek it out. Like people go, let’s go

Geo: yeah. You, but you like these big cons. Yeah. And 

joe: Right? So I go right. I do go to places with a lot of people. There’s things I don’t like and probably a lot of it is watching horror movies too young.

I was just telling Georgia I don’t really I don’t like beach. I like going to the beach. Let’s say that. I don’t like hanging out at the beach and, but when I was younger, Blood Beach, if you know that movie from the eighties. Yeah. So go check that out. If you wanna, you want some beach or,

Nick: or 

joe: but you know, it’s one of these things, so it is kind of, but you go, you get over it.

I think like heights in a little bit I don’t like the VR game where you gotta walk off one that plank. Ah, oh, that freaks me out. And I know it’s not real. Like the, I mean, talk, we didn’t talk about VR and virtual stuff, but you go out, but it was, but it actually helped me, like when I go clean gutters now, I did that game a few times and it desensitized me in my head.

I was like, you know, I’m okay. I’m okay. But yeah, I don’t really I don’t really like [01:14:00] heights, , it’s kind of, that freaks me out except I wanted to go skydiving. It’s kind of weird.

Nick: You wanna go skydiving?

joe: I do. Well, I

Nick: Are we gonna do,

joe: now, I don’t know. I’m kind of, I’ve passed the age. 

Come on. Of skydiving.

Phrique: Not test

joe: yeah, that’s right. Yeah. Let’s

Nick: Let’s see how well that ticker’s going.

joe: That’s right.

Let’s go. Yeah. And then media wise, you know, you guys know. 

Yeah.

Everybody knows 

listening to show knows. It’s gonna be The Thing.

Nick: Oh, that’s not what I was going to think you were saying.

joe: I mean, there’s, oh, what’d you think I was gonna say,

Nick: don’t worry about it.

joe: Oh, I’m worried now, not with phobia.

Phrique: the remake, like the addition,

joe: Oh, the pre, the prequel version of, oh, , it wasn’t bad. I think it added, I think it, it added to the canon, but it wasn’t, yeah, the original is it, go watch it, it has its moments. I think even if you’re not a super hard horror fan, I just think the psychological aspects of it, that’s what horror it, it kind of embodies that.

It sets a tone, I think four to eighties horror and what horror could be. I think that is, it’s a [01:15:00] classic for a reason. It’s got into the National Registry of Film, so, so yeah. So it’s now taken its place as a classic. So.

I really do, but if you’re gonna go like more comedic, you know, Evil Dead, I’m gonna go, I’m just gonna run in there.

And that’s another one you can watch. And it starts out super serious. I don’t think, I don’t think,

Geo: I don’t think, Evil Dead meant to be funny. I

joe: I don’t think it meant No, it did

not.

And they’re, I think Bruce came Yeah. And they, that they said that. 

Phrique: Do.

joe: Yeah. But it was like the first one, you could tell they were really trying to be serious, but it went off the rails, and when it went off the rails and then Evil 

Dead two, three. Yeah. It was just, this is a horror comedy, let’s, and let’s fool into it 

and go for it. And, you know. Yeah. 

And splat, I mean, then you had that, you started getting into the splatter, punk kind of elements of it, especially in a later one. So, yeah, no I think from there, but yeah, I can go on.

I 

Geo: probably say like book.

More recent? Well, there’s probably tons, but o Only Good Indians. Oh God, so good. 

joe: Yeah. Yeah. But [01:16:00] yeah. Cool.

Nick: Hell yeah.

Geo: I had to get

Nick: Well, thanks Phrique

Geo: for, 

joe: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.

Nick: Georgia had to go back to her. Go

joe: So once again Slay of Lake April 18th. So go out, support a lot of great authors. Artists are gonna be out there.

It’s a fun time. I’ve been to the one Slay of Lake, so there’s is a really fun kind of event. So, and support. So you’re supporting a lot of good causes going there. So yeah, check it out. But it was great having you on and come back when you have some more time. You get done. You wanna talk some psychology of horror again, you know, 

Phrique: I’m a nerd. I

joe: we can do it.

Yeah. So, 

Phrique: I appreciate it.

joe: yeah, definitely.

Nick: absolutely.

joe: So you’ve got me, Joe,

Got Nick. You got Nick Georgia. We’ve got Georgia

Nick: and

We went down to

joe: He. Stay

Nick: He is. Stay

joe: stay safe.

Nick: Bye-bye.

joe: We love y’all. Peace.