The crew revisits fear and horror, Georgia watches Blair Witch for the first time, and their Slay the Lake road trip. Science news: CRISPR defenses, semen-derived eye drops, and airborne eDNA.
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joe: Hey, welcome back to the Rabbit Hole of Research down here in the basement studio for the mini.
nick: The mini
joe: mini. Yeah. Yep. So here we are. You got me Joe,
nick: Mia got Nick.
joe: got Nick.
geo: Hi. And we’ve
joe: And we’ve got Georgia.
nick: Wow, great
energy.
joe: enthusiastic.
nick: Hi, I’m here. I’m Georgia.
geo: didn’t
joe: say the name. It’s as people know her
nick: she
didn’t.
joe: by the hi. Like, you know who else is gonna
nick: You know who? You know this voice. It’s Georgia.
joe: You know this voice. Yeah. So, last episode, we talked about splatter punk when Terror becomes Entertainment. We had freak was our guest splatter punk author.
And yeah, it was a good conversation.
nick: [00:01:00] It was, and you guys went to the Fest right this weekend.
joe: We did. Yeah. So we went to Slay Lake in lay the lake. That’s what it was.
Yep. Yep. LG, BT Q Plus Horror Book Festival. So it was a really fun time taking a road trip. To Wisconsin in Kenosha. It was the Final Girl Bar in
nick: Oh,
joe: themed bar.
So really cool. If you’re in that area,
geo: That’s fun.
joe: it out. It was really neat. Yeah, had a good time. So met a lot of cool people. Authors
geo: while,
joe: and while we were there, unrelated to fear and terror was we went to the Milwaukee. Zine Fest also. So we, we went there and then , on our way back, stopped in Kenosha.
So a twofer.
nick: Oh, very cool.
Because yeah, you guys were just there on Saturday, right?
joe: That’s
nick: was a one day event. Saturday. Yep. It was just a one day[00:02:00]
joe: event.
nick: least you guys were able to make the most of it.
The episode itself, I thought it was a good one. It’s feels like it’s in the Halloween spirit, but out of the Halloween time,
joe: Halloween in the spring. I don’t know.
geo: Well, it’s always a,
joe: it’s like,
geo: it’s always a good time for h horror
joe: Always a good time for horror.
nick: There’s never a bad time for murder. Yeah, I get it.
joe: there is not.
nick: Is that the message we’re.
joe: that’s it. Phobias. Yeah. No, it was really good. A good episode we had, listener comment, Alex, he suggested one of the Body Horror novels that he enjoys Reading is someone you can Build a Nest in. The title Sound it familiar, but yeah, I’m gonna check that out.
geo: out.
That’s interesting. So
it seems
nick: who’s that by? Do you know?
joe: It’s by John wiswell,
nick: John Whi. Well,
geo: and it’s a new book.
joe: Yeah. 2 20, 24.
geo: [00:03:00] Okay.
joe: Yeah, it’s like a shape shifting.
Queer fantasy Romance novel Wow. Is what it’s
geo: that’s got like, everything
joe: is known for its dark humor, gruesomely wholesome tone and exploration of themes like love, family identity from a monster’s perspective.
geo: That sounds interesting.
I kind of remembered Alex,
joe: Award for best novel and a Locus Award for Best first novel and was a Hugo Award finalist.
geo: Wow.
joe: So, yeah.
nick: Very cool.
joe: I
geo: remember Alex say. He doesn’t watch horror.
joe: I guess he
geo: But yeah, and I was just talking to someone at my work and she’s really getting into horror books and reading horror, and then I asked about some movie and she’s like, oh, no, I can’t watch, I can’t watch horror movies, but I
nick: Oh, off mic. We’re gonna talk about who this is so I can tell them some good recommendations.
geo: But I, like she was saying like, I can read horror, but I can’t watch it. And I thought that [00:04:00] was interesting. So yeah. It
joe: Yeah. That kind of goes, I mean, I think that maybe you can distance yourself in reading it. Maybe the
nick: I feel like seeing it might be, yeah, that might be the problem. It’s, yeah, you could hear the gruesome stuff, but seeing it actually acted out by humans
joe: Right.
geo: But
nick: might be where it’s like, oof.
joe: begin to feel it a little more. It’s like you see like leg injuries or arm, like you see people get hurt.
geo: Some ways though, I think your mind sometimes comes up with more gruesome than, it feel, it feels it in even more so than what they might’ve came up with.
joe: Yeah,
nick: I can completely see that. ’cause then that’s where you start seeing it reenacted in your head and then it just stays there because you read it. Yeah.
joe: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I was gonna say, we had watched a Netflix series. Something Bad is Going To
geo: Something Very Bad.
joe: and so was it very bad?
geo: had a very bad, it [00:05:00] had a very bad, yeah.
nick: I dunno. You guys have said it both ways
joe: I know. Yeah. Yeah. It’s on Netflix. It’s really good. It’s eight episodes, I believe.
Mm-hmm. But on the episode, the splatter punk episode that we did, the one movie that came up was the Monkey,
geo: Mm-hmm.
joe: we hadn’t seen The Monkey Georgia and I know we hadn’t seen the Monkey, and we watched it. It was really good.
geo: It was really good.
Something bad
joe: is gonna
geo: Something very bad
joe: gonna happen. Had the same,
geo: it really kind of had that same
joe: yep.
Yeah.
nick: Vibe.
joe: Yep. Yeah. Kind of this generational horror passed
geo: and kind Had to do with a curse and,
joe: Yeah. Yep. It was really good. Highly recommend both of those. The mokey was really good. And something really bad is gonna happen.
geo: Very bad,
joe: Which really bad did happen because I was in the cleaning the kitchen
geo: And that was because you were joking around and
you said that
joe: something really bad’s gonna happen and then I shattered the, yeah
geo: shelf
joe: [00:06:00] really bad. So,
geo: So
don’t be just
running around saying that willy nilly.
nick: I mean, that’s always the turning point in a story. And you go, oh, I have a bad feeling about this.
geo: Right,
nick: like, or I have, I feel like something bad’s gonna happen.
geo: right,
nick: always does.
geo: right,
nick: You’re loading that gun.
joe: Yeah. Never show a gun if you’re not gonna use it. Right. Exactly.
nick: Exactly.
joe: Coolio. All right. Yeah, I think that was it. It was a good, nice tidy episode. Not a lot to rehash. I mean, I guess we could, but probably that’s a whole nother episode.
nick: Yeah, exactly.
joe: Not the mini. Well, cool.
nick: Should we move on to new new territory of studies? What are we calling the segment? I can’t remember. I thought we had a
name for it.
geo: segment.
joe: Yes,
nick: I thought the whole thing is a science.
joe: no,
nick: Come on, Georgia.
joe: science podcast.
geo: No, but this is the [00:07:00] specifically science
joe: I don’t know. We still have a name for this. Just, we
nick: Oh, we gotta find a name.
joe: we’ll awkwardly, transition into this segment.
geo: well, we gotta come up with a name
joe: I thought we had something.
geo: and maybe like a
nick: thought we did
geo: and maybe like a little jingle that we can put in
right now.
joe: I’m, I put it out there for jingles, like, maybe I have to make something.
I’ll have to do
nick: it’ll go bum.
joe: No, that’s,
nick: No, you don’t like my freestyle Jazz, my mouth Jazz.
joe: Well that’s Usman. What do you got? What do you got? What you been checking out? What’s,
nick: I was reading something a couple days ago, it was a study where they were finding bacteria that fights off viruses using different. Ways, but, alright, so I was reading this and then I don’t know what happened, but I got really distracted and I had the question for you. How small
do things go [00:08:00] and do you know when it stops? Like how far, when is it the very furthest you can go?
joe: I don’t
geo: in smallness
joe: What do you mean by smallness?
nick: Well, I mean.
geo: Joe is an expert
about small things,
joe: What’s your question about size?
geo: He’s saying it’s something like, is it like go on infinitely small. small?
nick: yeah, like when Do you know? It’s the very smallest it can go. Nothing else is gonna be on top of that.
joe: You mean living things or like atoms and quirks and subatomic particles?
geo: You’re talking like ant man
joe: is our, like a quantum round mean what, I guess,
nick: there a quantum realm? Yes, there is.
joe: Yeah. No you get, you can get pretty
nick: really.
joe: Yes. There. I mean, yes, there are subatomic particles, so you can get down to. The atom, and then there’s
geo: that anyone’s ever seen, like with a microscope?
joe: I think [00:09:00] folks have somewhat imaged electrons and you can look at atoms, so you can see that.
But yeah, I think, you know, I don’t actually, I don’t know, like if there’s some quantum tunneling and things like that, some other techniques where you can image, but what’s the real question? Like why do you know what, how small something,
geo: that is a question. what do you like Not, that’s not
joe: off like with bacteria and viruses and how small, because I’m trying to get to why what size, where are we getting at?
geo: Think that, I don’t know. I
nick: ’cause they’re saying they found new things in it, even though they had used the same gene editing system to. Make to discover CRISPR and DNA sniping, snipping proteins.
geo: snipe
snip.
nick: Sorry I had to look that one up real quick and I was like, wait, reread that. But yeah it made me think, well, if you can find that already in what we see, can we go deeper and find [00:10:00] better? Tools.
joe: So I think what they did. Those are all genetic tools, and so you’re just that’s at the level of DNA, which isn’t at the level of the smallest particles in the universe. So it’s
geo: pretty small though, right?
joe: I mean, it’s subcellular,
geo: it’s cellular.
joe: But DNA is a complex molecule, so it’s not even individual atoms.
And so what they’re doing, and I don’t know if this paper at all, but these systems, like crispr, they were originally designed for the bacteria. To cut up genetic material. So bacteriaphages, so these are viruses that invade bacteria. You know, the bacteria needs some defenses against these bacteria, these viruses that will infect them.
The bacteriaphages.
And so they developed a system, the CRISPR system that we hear about in gene editing now. And that’s, it was originally used and they use it to actually cut up the genetic material. So when a virus attaches injects its genetic [00:11:00] material to be used and used a cellular machinery to make copies of itself to make new bacteria fas the bacteria goes, hold up.
It has some defenses. Uses CRISPR cas and then identify, destroy the invading viral genetic material. So that’s how that system works as a bacterial defense mechanism against viral infections and the idea there. And then after you cut up this DNA, this viral DNA, some of that can linger around and even be incorporated in the bacterial DNA to actually be activated as a, maybe like a genetic memory.
That it can then block new infections that comes along. So the bacteria has complex mechanisms to protect itself against viruses that might be trying to in invade and destroy them.
nick: That’s as far as we’ve made it so far. Yes. Like we [00:12:00] haven’t gone deeper into the smaller structures or No.
joe: So I’m trying to reframe, no, I’m trying to reframe what, yeah, it’s kind of ’cause Yeah, I think small is the wrong adjective.
nick: Is it.
joe: I’m, yes. Complex.
I’m trying to figure out the question like, so the mechanism, so this is
nick: weird of a question. We can skip it. It is
okay.
joe: I guess we can try to hash through it. Yeah. ’cause these
nick: real bad that
joe: no,
nick: you.
joe: these are all gene mechanisms, so these molecules that do work, so are proteins and they do work on things in the cell. So when you say small, it’s not a matter of going smaller. Y you know what I mean? So maybe if i can reframe the question or the idea is are there other systems like the CRISPR system have they all been identified genetically?
Right? There’s probably [00:13:00] bacteria using mechanisms that are to protect itself from bacteria phases. That we might not have identified. So have we identified all of the systems that bacteria uses to destroy invading viruses? I don’t know. And I would venture to say no. So I think we’ll still find and mechanisms of how these systems work and, you know, that’s why we do research and explore and try to find that.
So I think that’s how I’m interpreting your question more like. Have we
nick: That actually goes closer to what I’m trying to, ‘
what I’m
joe: like you’re saying, there’s some new research saying, oh, we just discovered this new system. But bacteria have been around for a long time and viruses have been around for a long time.
And so
geo: so it’s more a matter of, we’ve figured out a way to actually.
joe: understand the system
geo: and manipulate
joe: and
manipulated for our
geo: with That’s right. Using CRISPR yep.
you’re you. And then, but wasn’t CRISPR discovered in a really unusual way like. And I [00:14:00] can’t remember, I just remember listening to a really good radio lab episode, but it was probably 10 years ago and it felt like,
nick: think it was 10 years ago. I think I know the one
you’re talking
geo: And it was so good. I’ll have to revisit that. ’cause it felt like,
nick: that was recently though, like within the past five years.
geo: I think it was longer.
joe: Yeah. I mean it probably, CRISPR was, I think if you timeline it, probably the late eighties, early nineties. So, yeah.
geo: to really use it and stuff.
joe: use it. Right. I think that was mid two thousands, so Yeah. So you’re
geo: just, I know that it was a few years before the pandemic. Yeah. That, I remember listening
to
joe: think that’s when it, that’s when it really hit and
geo: And there was, seemed like there was some real interesting like.
That it does have a very interesting scientific history, you know? Yeah. That whole,
joe: I think it was just discovered in bacteria as part of their immune [00:15:00] response and these clustered repeated sequences and they didn’t know why they were repeating and the purpose of this genetic repeats. So I think that was it. And I think it was a little bit later until people figured out how this could be acquired immune.
Kind of, we were just talking about earlier, that is taken in these snippets of viral. Genetic material and then using that as a memory, genetic memory to then, when you see that pattern the viral genetic material comes in, it sees the viral DNA or RNA pattern in that, and then it uses this protein CRISPR to cut that up, right?
So you’re matching a pattern and then cutting it. And then what we use this system for gene editing is that you can then go through, find a pattern and then. Cut out and replace with a different piece. Mm-hmm. Of DNA,
geo: So we are basically using something the body already does, bacteria, and then, okay, something that bacteria already
joe: This is a bacterial system. [00:16:00] CRISPR is a
geo: within our, within our
body, within our right,
joe: right, because DNA is DNA. The molecular structure of DNA . The same nucleotides as they’re called are used in bacteria and viral, fungi. Plant, like every life form on Earth that we know of uses DNA.
nick: Oh, I
like
joe: it has the same
nick: that we know of.
joe: right. I mean, I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna paint myself in a corner. There’s always something, but what’s the odds of that? I don’t know. I’m not going as far as the universe either. Right. ’cause we haven’t done that.
nick: Not
yet.
joe: but that’s kind of how this works.
And we have in our own bodies, we do have mechanisms to cut and remove DNA, the same thing.
geo: But to be able to realize that and then use it in these clinical,
yeah, it it
joe: took decades of work. I mean, like I said, I think it was eighties, late eighties when they first realized this pattern but didn’t understand what the purpose was.
And then you had all this research and then utilize this and then make it a tool and now push it like how far can you push this tool to not only, we were talking not [00:17:00] only to remove DNA and go and edit and. and
Replace DNA, but to epigenetic kind of changes. So epigenetic remember are these kind of overlays.
So you have your genetic information and then you can have other molecules that will turn things on and off called methylation. So you add, specific markers that say, okay, turn this one on, turn it off. And those epigenetic kind of traits can be.
Passed on. And now they’re, you can use CRISPR to actually modify epigenetic kind of marker. So can you turn genes on and off like that, so not replacing gene, but kind of going in and say, okay, let’s turn these on and off and then get some
nick: just, you know, doing slight changes where it’s not gonna be something crazy.
joe: Yeah. So I think it’s really cool
nick: I think the whole idea of CRISPR is really neat. Like every time we talk about it, I am.
geo: it is fascinating. Yeah.
nick: something that sounds like it’s science fiction.
joe: Yeah. No, I think that’s, in that book Change Agent had it, that was crispr, gene [00:18:00] editing was a big thing and then especially epigenetic changes.
Because you think mostly of the changes happening embryonically, when you have fewer copies of the gene, you know you’re early on, you change it, and then the cells as they replicate will have the new, quote unquote healthy copy of the gene you’re trying to edit and replace. Epigenetic can, in a adult, can you modify gene expression and
geo: And is
joe: regulation?
Can
geo: is prob, this is probably a dumb question, but is that related to certain, like illnesses? Like certain, like, so is that similar to being predisposed to something
joe: So like epigenetics has really, like environmental stresses can cause, so really what you’re doing is you’re modulating gene regulation, so you’re turning on and off or how much to produce you’re actually turning on and off a product, the protein. And that protein is doing some work into cell. So
geo: could lead to some
sort of
joe: could lead to [00:19:00] disease stress, anxiety, neurological disorders.
So if you can now go in, understand. What’s being epigenetically controlled? Can you go in now and
geo: and purposely, yeah.
joe: Something that should
nick: really weird? Michelle had said that word earlier and I did not know what it meant until, what, 40 minutes ago?
joe: Epigenetic.
nick: Yeah.
joe: Yeah. We’ve
nick: was really weird.
joe: podcast quite a bit,
nick: Yeah. I feel like we do, but I never grasped what it
meant.
joe: me.
geo: Right, right,
joe: Yeah, no it’s really interesting.
nick: Believe you. I’m just takes a, it just takes a few times for it to sink in, right?
joe: Yeah.
nick: She actually gave the definition and it was like the only thing I was learning at that moment.
joe: Yeah. Yeah. And I think we talked, touched on this, swing all the way back to bacteriaphage and why kind of the interest in it and how bacteria use their systems to fight that. Because, [00:20:00] as we overuse antibiotics, you might need alternate therapy to fight bacteria.
So can you use bacteriaphages to actually, , attack and kill. Bacterial infections that you may have , this research is leading to something, beyond even this crispr.
nick: Sorry, I think I threw us off
joe: No. Yeah. When you said small, like you were. I think you were yeah. It’s not a matter of size. ’cause that wasn’t the key. So, sorry, I just had to, we had to unpack,
nick: yeah.
joe: Terminology there, which is okay.
You know, so,
nick: Words are
joe: then we got, yeah. ’cause then we got into like quirks and stuff, and that’s a different, that’s a different area of science. But I think you want it to be more in the biological, cellular function.
geo: Very
nick: cool. Did you have one, Joe? I’m sorry Again.
joe: No. Yeah. I had a couple that, that I saw that were interesting and I think some, because the title was like interesting and then poked around. But one was harnessing semen, derived exosomes for non-invasive [00:21:00] drug delivery. And so, yeah.
So a little bit. The un unpack , so exosomes. Are these kind of very small vesicles. So vesicles are like these kind of lipid droplets that cells excrete and they can have information, they can have genetic information, protein information. And that transports between your cells.
And they use this kind of as a way to pass notes, some DMs so they’re just passing these little messages between each other, these kind of exosomes. So they’re exo outside, somes cellular or body . So every type of cells make ’em. And so what’s interesting is that in this particular study they’re using this to make these eye drops. For a tumor growth in the retina and in particular retinalblastoma, this rare malignant eye cancer really really prevalent in children. And so how do you treat? This kind of eye cancer. [00:22:00] And so the way they do it now is, chemotherapy, injections, radiotherapy, all these pretty invasive procedures.
’cause you have to get in through many different layers of the eye to get to the cancer. So what these researchers hypothesized and tested. Was if you take exosomes from tissues that have to pass through many different signals, through different tissue types, so in this case semen used to for fertilization.
So it’s gotta go to a different system through different female reproductive tissues to reach its target and fertilize and do reproduction. So they said, well, can we use these exosomes that can have these abilities? Do they have any special properties that allow them to pass through different cell types and different tissues to get
nick: the people behind this talking about it.
Like just to come up with this idea. They had to say [00:23:00] some weird shit before they got to this joke,
joe: So, yeah. So they, do that all the research you get there and yes, they do have special properties that will allow them to penetrate and move through, just like they do the female reproductive track.
And so can you use this in the eye in kind of the same system? Can you kind of, once again, like the cast system, the CRISPR system we were talking about, can you take a system that has another function and then repurpose it for some other biological purpose that, that you need? And yeah it seemed to work that in, I believe this was done in mice , where they tested it, that they could actually.
Take these kind of
geo: it’s kind of like a superhero, super derived
joe: Endo, exosomes, SEVs and
nick: wait, what was that Georgia?
joe: No.
geo: No. Don’t you picture ’em like little superheroes that can
joe: exosomes, superheroes? They can
geo: can like bust through different structures and get, it’s like.
joe: I don’t think they’re busting through. I think they’re just passing through.
Yes. Yeah. Right.
geo: think they’re like little suits,
joe: semen.
geo: [00:24:00] They’re just like
joe: vesicle. So they’re isolated
geo: little superhero vesicles.
joe: It’s no. Weird. I, yeah. These are isolated, so they take it they’re purified. These are what the semen cells are excreting, the exosome. So then you collect that and you’re not.
Putting sperm in someone’s eye. So let’s clear this all up, Nick, because I see you giggling in the back of the class. Yeah, it’s a really cool cool study. Yeah, that they have, so it’s really promising because you can deliver now, can you take these exosomes, load ’em up with anti-cancer treatments and then deliver it, deliver them without kind of.
These kind of very invasive techniques. So can you do this and have high efficacy so
geo: I do agree with Nick. It is fascinating how, not just scientists, but anyone working on a problem, you know, solving a problem and to get to the point. You know what I mean? Where they were able to think [00:25:00] about this.
That’s like, that is
joe: and it’s a lot of, and a lot of research has went into that. So from these other systems, like how do exosomes work in their natural environment? How do they work there? And then go, oh, can this,
geo: okay. And I can just see somebody like waking up like first thing in the morning, like, oh my gosh, I got an idea.
You know, like, I don’t know. It’s really.
joe: Yeah I don’t know. I’ll put the show notes.
geo: And
joe: everything in, show notes
geo: similar, like you said, it’s similar to like, like architects or engineers looking at like things that happen in nature and then saying, oh, that’s a great system.
Let’s try that. Could like solve whatever.
nick: it
joe: good, right? Yeah, definitely.
geo: So then this has taken that same idea, but on
this much cellular level. Yeah, it’s very, you were
joe: You were gonna say small level?
geo: Well, no, I was not.
nick: I am sorry.
joe: No, you’re
geo: it’s
joe: were, they are small, right? That’s why, yeah. So that’s why where we headed with the smallness. But
nick: Small [00:26:00] things are small.
joe: yes. They’re small things. Yeah. The, another one I thought was. Interesting. And once again, this was it’s, the answer’s blowing in the wind detection of birds, mammals, amphibians, and with airborne environmental, DNA.
And so they did this survey, this group, and this was a couple years ago, and it’s just coming back up again and the idea is that. Everything you do and every organism is leaving some genetic information, it’s just being, you scratch your head or your skin cells, , it’s just out there in the world.
And so this team, they went and they tried to collect this airborne dust and then say, well, can we tell what organisms. We’re in there, like what animals, what plants what things pass by this patch of ground and kind of catalog that, like is it sensitive enough? And so it was really cool ’cause they could do that.
But it raises other [00:27:00] questions like, and they put point this out in the paper, ’cause you go, you see some, I think one of the study areas and there’s been several groups doing this, but one of the groups did this and they found, salmon, DNA, some miles away from where, the water source is at.
And then just realized this was carried, you know, you know, so rain. Or how did it get there? So, you know, ’cause the salmon didn’t walk
geo: ate the salmon and
joe: have happened. It could have just, blown through the wind. It could have been rain, you know, all sorts of things that could have passed this DNA around.
So when you do these studies and you do these surveys, you do have to be conscious of that. If you find. , you find traces of rat in, in some area, , was that rat there? Did it come in the feed? So did it pass a year ago? Like, you don’t know. There’s no timestamp on this.
So how long ago did this thing pass? Like,
geo: right, like, you wonder how long does this stay around?
joe: it’s really cool. And you’ve
geo: but
what’s the practical,
joe: So you’re doing surveying, like, so if you’re looking for invasive species. So is this [00:28:00] organism invading in this area?
We don’t see it now, but was it here? Is it moving? You could think about it. They did this a lot with COVID and they started looking at municipal wastewater, and then you could look for spikes. So you do a study of the wastewater and you can see what. What genetic materials in there, and if you see a lot of COVID genetic material, then you know you’re going to have a spike potentially in this area because now you’re seeing more wastewater that has viral kind of DNA in it.
So you can use it for population surveys to get some idea of what’s happening in an area. But as naturalists you can, like I said, you can be out looking for a species. Is there an endangered species? Do we see any trace of it?
Has it been here? What’s its movement?
geo: it just really does seem like looking for a needle in the haystack.
joe: Well, I think it’s the, I think using this technique is saying that you now have a way to find a needle. Like before, if you go, so how [00:29:00] else you set up cameras and you look and if the creature happens to go by, oh we see one I think here.
You can now go out and do the survey and go, okay, what do we see? Oh, look at this. We do see. DNA of whoever, X, Y, and Z,
geo: guess, I guess
joe: I think that’s how you can think
geo: tell you to look in this specific area in the first
joe: Well, you just, you could just be surveying, right? That’s a nice thing of it.
You can just survey even more areas. So, right, you set the cameras up in the wrong place, you never catch it. So here can you survey and then know where to actually look for the thing you’re looking for. So how do we make the haystack smaller? Mean, you can think of it that way. So yeah, I think there’s a lot of,
geo: searching for certain, like maybe missing people or or a forensic kind of application.
joe: Yeah, I guess
I mean, like, biological weapons might be one where you can use it and get a handle and, but yeah. Yes, you could. I think people are already doing DNA stuff like in the crime scene where people are
geo: Well, right,
joe: Oh, right. Because you would need to know where they’re [00:30:00] going. I mean, that’s even more like you’re, to your point, like if you’re just sourcing down the street.
I mean, if you happen to
geo: what are the chances
that
joe: Yeah. Or false positives. Right? So if you, okay. They follow you in your coffee shop, , workplace train, these places you go a lot. Then if you’re taken from one of those places, then it really, now how do we find a new trail?
So if you’re looking for a person, I think, but yeah I guess you could, like, if it was like, we think you’re in the field, maybe they can do sources or something. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah.
nick: Yeah I mean, I could see it having other uses
joe: Yeah. I think it’s more like this pa this paper is mostly like monitoring.
Species level
kind of thing. So not individuals in
geo: the I know population it was kind of a far reach,
joe: Yeah. Oh, maybe like a science fiction novel or something. Cool.
nick: I, I think that would be fun.
joe: Yeah, that’s we’re right.[00:31:00]
nick: So, what kind of media have you guys been consuming?
joe: Oh, go ahead, Georgia.
geo: Oh no, I, what kind of media? Yeah, I’m sorry. I’m drawing a blank on anything.
joe: Want me to finish Something Very Bad? Really bad. Oh wow.
geo: we already talked about that. We already talked about that.
joe: Yeah. I kind of watched that. Oh, you, oh, you should say you, you know what? Georgia watched? She hadn’t
geo: Oh, yeah.
joe: And I was like, okay, we just gotta watch it. You go ahead. Oh
geo: yeah. I watched Blair Witch.
nick: Oh, really?
You’d Never seen
that? I had never seen that.
What did you think?
geo: no, I thought it was really good. I think I had so many. Preconceived notions about it that I thought it was very interesting what it really was. You know what I mean?
nick: Wait. What? What? What were your notions about it beforehand? I need to know now.
joe: Well,
geo: Well, I mean,
nick: [00:32:00] just say you had them.
geo: I mean, I guess I’m, I won’t be spoiling it.
joe: No
geo: It’s pretty old,
joe: was 99, so feeling
geo: so old right now. Oh my God. But,
I think, I thought that it was gonna show more like. Like we were talking about, like maybe show more gruesome things and like, and then it’s like the whole movie I was waiting for kind of these jump scares or these like more gruesome, like,
nick: Oh no. It’s more atmospheric.
geo: It is definitely more what you make it in your mind which I thought was really good. So I was surprised that. That is what it was.
You know what I mean? it picked up
joe: really well.
I hadn’t seen it in a while. I saw it in the theater when it came out the, to my neighbors, they were going to see it, and I just, I had no clue what Blair Witch was about. And I went in and it was really yeah, it was good. And then watching it now, because it’s been a while since I’ve actually seen it, so putting eyes on it again. And going through it, it was like, oh, this really [00:33:00] holds it was done well. And I think the simplicity of it
geo: mm-hmm.
joe: That you aren’t relying on kind of gadgets and graphics and, practical effects.
It’s more just these people, they’re just trust. They’re kind of,
geo: that does hold up, but in a way it’s like we’re so used to like things getting more like mm-hmm. What we talked about in the episode,
joe: Mm-hmm.
geo: how.
Now it’s almost like you really have to make something like extremely gruesome or extremely out there because you’re trying to like,
joe: and I don’t know if
geo: And then I think that’s a good reminder that you don’t have have to, you don’t have to. I was
know what I mean?
joe: that. I think there’s something to be said with skillful writing, acting, putting people in these positions and then having them, limit the information that the viewer has, and then using that to drive tension and suspense and, the horror of it all, and putting yourself in that situation, if you’re in the woods.[00:34:00]
With your map, that’s not right. Your friends, their association was loose, so they weren’t like, best buddies or a couple or some serious partnership. They were just going out there to do this project and help a friend out and now you’re stuck in a situation that how easily these things fray and come apart and yeah, it’s, it was really, it was cool to watch.
And if you haven’t seen Blair Witch project, go check it out. The first one in 99, or
nick: Honestly, the third one is as Well, It’s actually, uh,
joe: any other ones,
geo: The third one is really good.
nick: yes, it’s not labeled the third one or anything like that but. Because what, after this one, after the original came out Season Of The Witch and that one I don’t remember,
joe: Yeah, I didn’t see
nick: so I’m assuming it wasn’t Great.
geo: uh,
nick: but the one that they did in 2016,
that was pretty good where they brought it to a more current day setting. [00:35:00] So they had technology and that was failing on them. And it was really cool how they were able to. Still bring that
feeling
of alone
and
geo: they, yeah, I think they called that Blair Witch Two right?
nick: No,
it was just called Blair Witch.
geo: a,
yeah. Oh.
joe: of a Witcher, something like that.
geo: we noticed the
joe: there was a two or something. Yeah. I don’t know. Yeah. One of, we
geo: said like had
nick: It was the Blair Witch is the first one.
geo: Yeah. I don’t know. Mm-hmm.
nick: And then the second one was, oh, Book of Shadows, Blair Witch Two.
geo: Okay.
nick: That’s what it was.
geo: Okay.
joe: Yeah.
nick: And then just Blair Witch. Yeah.
geo: it’s funny ’cause that kind of gets back to that whole thing about watching a who.
Movie as opposed to reading it, or reading a horror book. And that kind of gets back to that whole thing of how much do you show. Yeah. And then I think of those movies I can’t even think of the name of them. Is it Myst or [00:36:00] those movies where there’s some sort of creature out
there,
joe: Yeah. Myst it. That
geo: and then they show this real cheesy thing and then you’re like, oh, well that’s it.
You know,
it’s just
joe: on the special effects budget.
geo: And it’s like, no, just don’t show the thing. You know what I mean? And then
that
joe: the mind kind of
geo: fill in those. Yeah. But.
joe: Yeah.
nick: Blair Witch did such a fantastic job with that. Like I remember seeing that as a child on
VHS.
geo: Oh, wow. Yeah.
nick: with you because you’re like, oh, you don’t know what this creature is or what’s going on.
joe: right,
nick: Yeah. And then they also had a video game too.
That was pretty good.
geo: Oh, wow.
joe: Yeah. The other thing think I own that
geo: at
nick: on multiple systems.
joe: go ahead. Yeah. At the Slay the Lake at the Final Girl Bar. We were sitting there eating a little food and chatting with a friend who happened to come down for the festival and yeah, they had Friday the 13th. [00:37:00] eight, Jason takes Manhattan. And that’s my fa one of my favorite scenes. And we started watching close to that scene where you have the the black guy, he’s in this like track suit and he like starts boxing with, Jason on the roof.
And they go and then they, he gets, he’s winded, he’s gassed and he is like, take your best shots. And then Jason punches his head off, like it’s like one another. I just, it’s just that over the top. And I think that’s,
geo: my God. And like we were talking about that real, that movie isn’t even a horror movie,
really. mean, it’s
joe: of
geo: scary, It’s just silly.
joe: I think it was like you got
nick: you get in that whole range.
joe: How can you kill people?
Like what’s the funniest and most unique way? What haven’t we done yet? I think that, and Freddy Krueger did the same thing when you got. Into the four or five. It was just how do we, , how do we kill somebody with a, a spool of scotch tape or something, you know?
It’s just being silly.
nick: have to up the [00:38:00] antes because it’s just,
joe: right. Yeah.
nick: yeah, and that’s what it just becomes, which,
joe: but it
nick: I like it’s a comedy at was, fun. I hadn’t watched that in a while, like I knew it and it was like, oh, I think that scene’s coming in this,
geo: and we were debating the year it came out based on how high the hair
was. And,
but me and Glen were totally right on about the. Yeah, about the 1980.
I said late
eighties.
It came out 1988 or 89. Yeah,
joe: I said it was I said early nineties . ’cause the hair wasn’t as
geo: no,
you said
joe: said early nineties
geo: You said nineties.
joe: I said early nineties ’cause the hair and it was 88.
nick: don’t know. This one feels like something that Joe didn’t say, but he’s saying, he said.
joe: Yeah. They know I was right.
geo: Yeah,
joe: yeah. What are you watching? Anything?
nick: What I have been watching the new SNL UK been enjoying that a lot. I think they just had episode four [00:39:00] is what came out. I think they crew did, is doing a great job. Yeah, definitely recommend that.
geo: And what do you watch that on?
nick: We’ve been watching that on Peacock.
geo: Okay.
Mm-hmm.
nick: Yeah, it’s nothing too much to do, but yeah, it’s yeah it’s been an enjoyable show so far.
geo: Nice. And
nick: then we have also just refinished Brooklyn nine.
joe: I’ve never seen that.
nick: That was a good show. I mean, it’s a show about cops, but it’s. One that is a comedy show with Andy Sandberg. So if you are a fan of him, they do a good job.
And then I have just jumped back into playing the game Fasm phobia,
Ghost Hunting game where they had announced that they are going to be doing a, crossover event with another really good game that I like Ellen Wake too. So yeah, just [00:40:00] just been trying to jump back into that whole series.
joe: Cool. That sounds really fun. Mm-hmm.
nick: And then yeah, just just trying to get my readings done. Georgia had recommended a book to me that I just started
geo: Oh, you have started it.
nick: I just started it.
geo: Okay. Yeah, we’ll talk about that later. I mean, I think I’m
nick: the name of the book again? Georgia.
geo: it’s strange animals,
nick: And what did you think of it?
geo: oh my gosh. I’m loving it. I’m loving
nick: a book that Georgia recommended to me.
So,
geo: So,
does that make it, are more,
is that
good or bad?
nick: we’re gonna find out now, aren’t we?
joe: Yeah. The pressure.
nick: I mean, I recommended a book to you before, so you know.
geo: Yeah.
joe: And
geo: then I’m about 70% done and it, I really like it a lot.
nick: Oh, I thought you finished it
geo: No. Because
nick: to finish it?
geo: no, when I recommended it to, to you, I was only like on the [00:41:00] fifth chapter, so it was kind of a risky recommendation, but I was that. But I was that confident in it. It was that good. It was like, and I was that confident that you would like it, that I recommended it that early on, so, yeah.
nick: risky one right there.
geo: know. And I think it’s gonna pay off, but
nick: Good. But yeah, that, that’s where that’s where I’m at.
joe: Yeah. So I was going just mention maybe people seen this online, but I was recently named one of the 35 Writers to Watch by the Literary Guild Complex.
And they’re having a celebration event April 30th at the Epiphany Center for the Arts. So
geo: it is kind of a fundraiser for the, you
joe: And you’ll meet all the other writers that are there and other folks in. The area, I guess, that are gonna come. So yeah it’s gonna be a
nick: [00:42:00] Are under 35, right?
joe: That is not the requirement of the list, but yeah,
nick: Under 35. just 35 writers to watch, so gonna be doing it. So yeah, no,
was 35.
joe: kind of a surprise and honored. So, yeah, I’m looking forward to the event, but don’t I throw it out there. Folks are looking for
nick: buddy, you deserve this.
joe: 30th and they can come on down.
Say hi to have a toast and, celebrate all these wonderful, I’ve been looking them up and, , just really honored to be named among them. So, yeah, throw out, throw that out there.
nick: As I said again, Joe you deserve this one.
joe: you. Thank you.
nick: Not all your awards you deserve, but you know this one you have.
joe: it’s, I get myself.
nick: Oh, I’m gonna give myself this Rabbit hole research award.
joe: that’s right.
geo: I think
the
joe: I give awards out. I
geo: was gonna say,
I think the only person that’s gotten a rabbit hole research award is Jeff Goldblum
joe: jeff Goldblum. That’s right.
nick: I thought we agreed [00:43:00] it was S
joe: No. It was Jeff Gold. We hashed this out.
geo: Yeah.
In the end.
joe: Amy and
geo: Jeff Goldblum was the
joe: we had a word and we
geo: debut,
award
joe: I don’t, yes. And then we had a word of the season,
geo: Mm-hmm. Well, that’s a given
joe: Yeah. So
nick: What was the word for the season? I can’t remember. I think it was what?
geo: Shut up. You remember,
joe: I’ll put it in the show notes,
geo: notes, Extremo files. I kind of like this new word. What is it? I don’t remember. But I still see the exomes,
nick: think it be a.
geo: Exosomes. And they’re like little superheroes. Exosomes,
joe: Exosomes. Yes.
geo: I just see ’em like with a little teeny tiny cape.
joe: A little fist extending out.
geo: Right, right.
joe: through
nick: Flying behind it all slimy and whatnot.
joe: Yes. Okay. [00:44:00] Well you’ve got me, Joe, on
nick: Yeah. Got Nick
joe: Got Nick,
geo: Georgia.
joe: Got George. A little more enthusiasm at the end.
nick: and
joe: Oh.
nick: we went down some tiny hole
joe: Went down The Mini. Stay safe. Stay curious. We love y’all.
