On the day Artemis II launched, the RHR crew with special guest Ernie Bell, PhD, headed down below the Basement Studio to ask the question fiction keeps digging up, can humans live long-term underground?

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joe: Hey Welcome back to the Rabbit Hole of Research down here in the Basement Studio. We are all crewed up. You have me, Joe? 

nick: Yeah, I 

joe: We’ve got Nick Georgia, we’ve got Georgia. 

geo: You’ve 

mary: got Mary. 

joe: We’ve got Mary and we have a very special guest joining us. Ernie

mary: Hi

Ernie. 

ernie: Yeah. I

don’t know what else you’d like me to say. 

I guess, currently 

Rocket scientist 

engineer working on lunar landers

formerly plantar geophysicists, studied lava

tubes and volcanoes and a whole bunch of field work with that so a lot of time on the ground A lot of time on top.

of the ground too.

I guess. 

nick: Yeah. 

joe: I mean, you make it sounds like Oh yeah. You know, rocketing 

nick: Yeah. That, 

that, that was the most casual. 

joe: That’s like 

nick: Yeah.

joe: everyday thing, you

geo: ground 

nick: and 

rockets and stuff.

joe: Yeah. So, yeah and it’s, your [00:01:00] expertise will come in. This episode is about the challenges of humans exploring other worlds living in caves, underground, terrestrial, extraterrestrial, , we see that in fiction a lot where people are, escaping to the underground.

So thought that would be a fun one to dig into and you 

geo: get at, dig into.

mary: yeah, 

Oh boy. 

joe: There you 

geo: go. 

mary: It’s so early. 

joe: got it. 

Yeah. 

So usually I start with, not my little monologue to get into the episode but actually before I do that, I do wanna say, and I don’t know to if people know, but today we had went the day of recording our TIMI

mary: two

joe: launched successfully.

And so I just, I mean, for me, I, it was pretty exciting. , it was 72 was the last time we sent people to the moon, so that was a little before I was born. And yeah, I just want to, I’m sure you’re excited, , you still are in the business of sending people into space, and so, how’s that feel?

ernie: Yeah it’s an exciting day for 

all of us. like that. I mean, everybody 

should be excited about this in my opinion, [00:02:00] but 

I personally I’m

incredibly excited. It’s

it’s

I’ve been most 

forward to this since I 

was a little kid, like,

like you.

Joe we, we

were all born just after

they did this in Apollo, grew up being told that, Hey, you know, 

your

generation is 

gonna carry on

to the moon and

Mars and all this.

And now 

we’ve been waiting 50 years to actually get 

the 

chance to carry 

on with this. 

And we’re there, we’re on the, we’re on the doorstep. We got crew of four out there orbiting earth now. The Orion spacecraft. the Second 

launch for what’s called the SLS. 

NASA’s big, huge 

moon rocket.

And, 

They rode that off into orbit. They’re gonna stay in orbit around the earth for about,

a, I 

think a little 

less than a day.

They’re getting, get some rest 

and then they’re gonna wake up in four or five hours, then fire 

up their engines again. Start bumping their way off to the moon. 

And, 

but yeah, 

I mean, my work

ties directly to this

all goes 

right. You know,

we will be, 

waiting 

for them very soon

In one 

of these future 

missions. 

and one of these Very

soon

next missions. Getting some

testing done on our vehicle on

the lander that we’re putting [00:03:00] together and

you know,

it’s Blue 

Origin,

it’s SpaceX We’re both, 

Working on lunar landers for the.

astronauts for. 

at NASA. And 

So, 

yeah, it’s exciting. This is, we need this step they’re gonna go out 

there gonna go fly out around the moon and 

come back

10 days.

And like I say, 

next one, hope, it’s

I dunno 

if you heard the administrator basically said that

oh, and the next time 

that

SLS

with Orion launches, the 

idea is to Dock with the landers in Earth orbit. 

joe: Right.

ernie: And then the next one after that

would

be the Idea with the land

on the moon and it’s either gonna be US Blue

Origin or

SpaceX, with the lander that’ll be,

waiting for

him at the moon. 

joe: Wow, that’s really exciting.

Yeah. 

nick: so 

cool. 

ernie: pretty cool. 

geo: it’s, 

joe: no, that’s nice. Get your ticket and

The moon base. Right. That’s the ultimate plan is to, is it 

nick: is it

gonna be underground? 

joe: It’s gonna be,

ernie: So it’s gonna start on ground above ground, on ground above ground. You as about 

underground, and actually there’s papers going

back to seventies, sixties. And there are these caves underground, 

so I dunno if we wanna 

get into that right 

[00:04:00] now or not, but yeah there’s advantages 

to eventually putting ’em underground on the moon and Mars and other places, but

it’s, it also takes a lot of equipment and stuff there to be able to do that.

It’s a lot easier to set it on the surface and a little bit harder to get it underground. So Yeah. We can get into that whenever you want, but Yeah.

we can, 

joe: Yeah. I mean, we can, I do 

nick: have to say something before we move on. Is, I watched the takeoff with my daughter today

and she was so enthralled,

like

she was already asking

if she can watch another one and if she can fly one, and I was like, that’s awesome.

This is how you get that obsession. 

Like,

mary: mm-hmm. 

nick: like I can’t wait to see what, like, what triggers her

and

be like, oh yeah, this is something that’s gonna be one of those lifelong things where you’re just 

so enthralled

by 

Space. 

joe: Yeah. That’s what I thought 

we would start the episode there since it’s happening on this day, so, yep.

nick: Yeah. like, 

mary: well, let’s continue with that [00:05:00] thread with underground caves on the moon. 

geo: Right?

joe: That’s what we’re 

geo: and I think Joe, we’re gonna set it up right. 

joe: I was, I mean, we can, I mean, 

If

people just gonna cut right to the bit, I know Mary’s always 

just ready to go,

mary: just boom.

joe: just like, you

mary: get right to it. 

geo: Come on, Joe. Enlighten us. 

joe: Every instinct humans have was designed for open spaces to scan the

horizon for predators to navigate by the stars in the night sky, to race the wind. And yet every culture has a word for what’s below. The Greeks had Hades, the Maya had Xibalba. Both described the doorways to the underworld, and before any of that, our ancestors were crawling hundreds of meters into the Earth to paint on walls where no natural light ever reached.

We don’t fully know why. We just know they went. Maybe it was for shelter. The thrill of the unknown, connection to our ancestors, a place of punishment or where dark things hide fiction has been obsessed with it forever. From [00:06:00] Verne sending explorers through a volcano to a sea that shouldn’t exist, to Tolkien building entire civilizations and inside mountains to current sci-fi, imagining our first footholds on Mars and other outer worldly planets, and going underground isn’t just Handwavium device. It might be an important survival strategy because on earth and off world, they can provide ready-made shelter, radiation shields, and thermal regulation. But are humans or any other terrestrial life built for a life closed in and isolated from the open?

But what if underground is our last refuge or a new home? What would it actually take to make life find a way in the deepest caves on Earth or the lava tubes of a strange new world? 

geo: Yes, 

joe: that’s it. That’s where we’re at. So we’re headed that way

geo: We better Start digging. We 

joe: better start digging.

nick: I heard Bigfoot likes to live in cave 

joe: lives in cases. 

ernie: That’s why we can’t.

joe: that’s right [00:07:00] there. , maybe the start and if you like, what is a cave? How’s a cave form? Maybe let’s start on 

Earth. 

Let’s start there for folks. I did, I looked this up and I really didn’t know

ernie: Yeah. There’s

It’s two

guess put em in

two primary types of caves, maybe say

on earth. One is.

a kind of a kar type cave

Like

a Limestone formation where you have water and precipitates and 

it’s basically eroding the volume under

the ground, 

That’s seemed like a more damp type of

environment, or you got also the ones that actually

I’ve did all of my research on, which are lava

tubes. They, they’re formed in volcanic wva

flows and there’s a couple different ways.

those are formed. So 

they can either be kind of an inflation where the fluid of the, basically the lava comes 

out and it basically inflates. and

the

outer skin of it,

because

it’s contacting the air cools faster. So it 

actually starts 

to 

solidify. So you get this kind of a, 

basically like a skin

over top the the outer 

edge, the outer surface of [00:08:00] the 

lava flow,

and 

it actually then starts causing an 

insulating effect. 

So It keeps the fluid

lava 

molten 

and flowing through 

it as 

the outer skin thickens and as it thickens gains structural integrity, into the point that it gets thick enough that it’s able to support its own weight.

And then the way that the 

tube 

in this case 

forms is 

that 

downstream, essentially 

downflow of the lava, 

There’s an outlet

where the source lava stops producing out of the earth. You know, the molten lava stops 

coming out, 

but it’s still flowing down the hill. It maintains high enough temperature, that stays molten.

And then this continues to flow all the way down and out the end of the 

tube 

where

you know, a hole is basically, essentially 

formed and then 

you just get this

big void of a inflated lava flow 

that 

you can walk across the surface 

and you won’t know 

it.

It’ll look Just like any of the other lava flows. And it, assuming 

it’s thick enough, you don’t fall through. which is a good thing if you want,

But there 

there are 

[00:09:00] collapses that’ll 

form in it, you know, holes you know, where it’s weak.

There’s even 

parts 

where when it’s forming, just

won’t solidify

and completely, and they’ll be 

called skylights, 

so

after a lava 

goes out, it’s 

there’s these holes

either through collapse, we’ll go

in the formation 

that are still there. 

And these 

can be,

there’s

different sizes. you know, 

There’s tiny 

little 

ones you couldn’t even crawl through.

There’s 

big ones that are, you know, 

10 plus meters in diameter.

More than that even, 

There’s another

way

that

they can 

actually form 

is that, 

Very 

high flow 

water 

flow can form 

a trench. 

joe: Mm-hmm.

And

ernie: Essentially you get 

filled up on either side,

so keeps it 

kinda like a river of,

lava. and as it’s it gets the same effect where you get 

A cooling across the top.

surface, kinda like a river in wintertime 

and 

you get that ice warm across the top and it will start building up and it can zipper 

up actually from the 

edges oh, to 

the center line.

And

then

you get 

that same effect where you get a 

buildup of thickening. 

an increase in thickness there 

where it’s structurally sound. again, the 

lava drains [00:10:00] out of it 

downstream.

And those 

are, those 

can be quite large.

too. I’ve been in Some 

that are 20 

meters in diameter.

Or even slightly Better here on Earth.

nick: So

is lava, like, does it just constantly flow? Is it like, is

it

flows like water, right? Like,

ernie: well, 

I mean 

it 

flows, 

yeah.

Maybe not quite like 

water, but Yeah. It 

flows. 

And 

it’s just an eruption from a volcano or, you know, 

a vent

basically.

nick: So 

it dries out, right? Like 

ernie: It, yeah. it stops 

flowing eventually. 

like volcanic eruption, It

only lasts so 

long, And once it 

Stops, then

you know, the, 

nick: Oh,

ernie: doesn’t have a

way to 

drain out. then it just solidifies.

in place eventually and Just the big

lava flow.

at that

point.

joe: So, after the primary tube is made. What’s the chances that another lava flow event will happen? So you put people in there. Are they always like, get out here, what’s the

ernie: Yeah,

No,

that’s 

a 

good question ’cause actually

They do get reused

basically

assuming that the Erupt Center [00:11:00] has, a source of lava 

that can 

come 

up 

and 

flow out of it. Magma can come up and flow out lava 

and you get an interesting features sometimes when that 

happens. So you’ll 

get like

benches if it doesn’t completely fill it, 

you’ll get a, 

A solidifying

effect along the edges. 

where you get these things called benches that literally looks like a bench on the

along the edges. 

You’ll

get look what looks 

like 

icicles falling 

from the ceiling. It ceiling. It’s just kind of, 

it’s 

molded, 

it’s 

dripped down, but 

it’s solidified just 

like a icicle does.

in wintertime. And you’ll guess they’re called lava sickles.

We Call ’em. I don’t know if that’s really a technical term, but that’s what we like to call ’em. So, and then we get.

Other like, formations on

The surface and that frozen 

lava flow It’s might only

be, you know,

a 

few inches thick or something on the surface

On 

the floor, but 

yeah, 

But eventually 

if

the source of it is

no longer available. then there’s no longer a danger of getting three reviews.

Kinda like on the,

Basically

the volcanic,

so our Knowledge,

volcanic 

eruption, 

volcanic capability 

on the 

moon is 

basically over at this point. It’s 

cool 

to the point that 

[00:12:00] anything 

that’s molten is so far 

down 

under the 

crust.

We don’t 

think there’s 

a way for it to get 

up, 

we don’t 

see evidence. Of the volcanism.

there’s 

some debate on

that. But 

in 

general,

there’s

nothing

that 

indicates recent.

volcanism. So we find these types 

of things 

and we’ve found, 

you know, 

skylights collapsed 

pits and things like that on the moon.

And We know there’s void space

in either direction, 

we just don’t know if it really goes 

on 

and on

it’s a tube or not, but. 

joe: Right.

ernie: There’s evidence on, of Mars as well, eventually. So, yeah they can

most

likely be a 

lot 

larger 

though too.

on these locations. But moon, The gravity

Is 

so 

much 

less. 

We actually expect them to 

be,

I mean, one 

of the re one researcher did 

just a structural 

calculation on 

’em that they could be hundreds of meters 

across.

We’re 

talking where,

2, 3, 400 meters across 

ones that we know, where we see these

collapsed pits. There’s one Mario Hills pole. 

And we 

suspect that there’s lava tubes there 

and there’s these poles where 

the [00:13:00] ceiling is essentially like 25 meters thick.

There’s 40 

meters 

of void space underneath,

and

we know 

it will go off 

in either direction. We just don’t know if it keeps, if it’s just a hole or if it actually 

goes as a 

tube. But it’s 

compared to Earth, they’re enormous. 

it can be enormous. You know, they’re small 

ones too, 

just like on Earth. it’s a whole range 

of size.

nick: How

long have we known that there was like

lava on the moon?

Because

I

Didn’t know that. 

mary: Yeah I didn’t know that either.

Yeah. 

nick: I always thought it was cheese.

mary: Well,

maybe not that, but

nick: that.

you’re gonna go Harry Carey for that one. 

joe: Yeah. Gotta have jokes. 

nick: could be, what kind of cheese could it be? 

that 

joe: was

ernie: Oh, it’s kind. It depends. Was it Swiss pea?

joe: A trip. A trip to the moon, right. In the early 19 hundreds. Then they. They catapulted a cannon rocket there, so, no, no realistic , escape velocity. But they didn’t make it to the moon and they crack in, but I think they go into a cave with the little [00:14:00] creatures in there,

and I think that is, it was like a lava tube.

I mean, I think that’s what that 

a cave or did they base

geo: it on that they knew that was on the moon or they just, 

that was, 

joe: I don’t know when they figured out lava two in there,

ernie: Yeah, that was probably more of a guess. 

Just a equating at the Earth than a good,

geo: Yeah. 

joe: yeah. It was a good guest though. I mean, that was 

geo: think that was just,

the 

joe: but I remember that ’cause it, it smacked with, you know, it was like hit the eye or whatever, but 

Yeah. That was 

nick: very

iconic image. of that. 

Yeah. 

joe: right. But yeah, it was, they went in they 

ernie: that the, or something? 

joe: yeah. When that, well, Jules Verne and that was the center, that was 

Journey to the Center of the earth.

That was in the 18 hundreds. Right. 1850s or something like that.

geo: I 

don’t know. I only know the Brandon Frazier one 

joe: to brand 

The 

nineties. Nineties,

geo: or whatever it 

joe: yeah. I don’t nineties. I think, you know, Brandon Frazier was more nineties. 

nick: Yeah, 

geo: you’re right.

But I’m sure there was quite a few renditions of that story.

joe: Yes. I think they went in through [00:15:00] a volcano. That was a Journey to Center of the Earth. They went in through a volcano, then they went 

down and then they found there was like dinosaurs down there and then they had and then they found the river.

Yeah. They had then the sea, they found like a sea and then there was a sun. So it was like there was a sun down there and they had a hole. 

nick: I feel like the new, 

King Kong film did that too.

Didn’t they? Where 

joe: that 

and the Ice Age one or was it Ice Age where they had the crack and they went in and then that was like all of the dinosaurs and stuff were down.

There was like a whole nother world. I think it was Ice Age, 

nick: I don’t know, I 

joe: age three or four or seven. I don’t know where they’re at with that, but 

geo: Well, so

nick: I went King Kong, you went Ice Age, 

Yeah. 

geo: these Lava 

tubes 

Does 

anyone actually inhabit Lava tubes? 

nick: Are

you trying to set yourself up for Extremophiles?

mary: Ah, 

joe: No.

geo: No.

joe: That Well,

geo: You’re,

gonna take that.

joe: will say that’s one of the things that live in caves are extremophiles, [00:16:00] so especially microorganisms, 

geo: would think,

joe: I think there’s more biocarbon mass from living microorganisms in caves than there is terrestrially on the Earth. I think it’s like 

not even close. 

Yeah. So there’s a lot of life, especially microorganism, like 

mary: oh, okay. Organism 

joe: life.

It’s 

nick: Yeah. 

Microorganism life. 

Microscopic.

joe: microscopic. 

There is, I don’t know 

why I was

geo: Go ahead.

ernie: Oh

yeah, I just, I know some of 

the 

folks 

I work with they actually are studying that. You know,

like some of 

the,

lava tubes we’ve been in,

it’s there’s actually,

if you.

ever get a chance, Lava Beds National

Monument,

out in Northern California.

it’s this 

Beautiful place in near Medicine Lake and 

it’s got some of the

Tubes

there.

They’re called, 

like one, one of

the names is Golden

Dome.

You go in this place

And the bio

Growth 

in there, literally

it just looks like it’s covered

in a sheen of

gold

and 

it’s just beautiful, amazing the way. it sparkles in the light and 

things like that. So 

yeah, there’s definitely, 

and there’s, 

some folks that work with 

are studying 

that and studying 

other, like,

Like,

you say, microbes.

and, 

[00:17:00] Microbial growth and such, And they’re using various techniques

Ultraviolet lighting.

And Things like 

that 

to

illuminate it and

Record

it, 

and study it. So

a

lot of 

interesting 

things there.

And they’re,

Yeah.

And Actually

you know, you’ll find animals in your bats that’s one thing. You go to these places you gotta, There’s bats.

in gave, you gotta be protective of the bats and such. But

people you know, living

there, 

there’s, Native 

Americans from way 

back 

have 

lived in 

these caves. Lot of bats,

national mine for one. And Since, 

you know, 

criminals 

from the 

law 

nick: Mm-hmm.

I 

joe: Yeah.

I can see that 

ernie: them as a good refuge

to hide out into the

lava tubes. 

’cause they’re really 

hard to get through. They’re really hard to 

get into and 

they’re really hard 

to find, even if you 

know 

it’s there. Some,

of you know, folks like 

that, that

didn’t wanna necessarily 

have anything to do with 

the rest of society 

would, 

Wander 

off, 

cases.

Yeah.

mary: Yeah.

nick: I mean, it’s a good shelter, right? Like,

joe: I, yeah, I mean there’s problems living 

in 

geo: I was 

gonna say, well, if it would, You know, you would, we would think there’d be more people living in 

joe: yeah, I you have, you need, [00:18:00] so there’s health concerns. What, so vitamin D so we need the sun 

mary: need Yeah, that’s true. Well,

geo: but 

that’s any underground.

joe: I mean, I guess, but I’m just pointing out CO2 buildup in cave systems and 

ernie: moisture.

in ’em, you know, and such, some of ’em actually have ice all year round too, because you

get this weird. Thermal effects that go where Literally there’s one,

cave I

was

in,

there was literally 

I think three to 

four meters of 

ice 

They just, you go in, 

you 

Have to crawl through it because it’s so, 

So narrow.

But reality the cave itself,

is four

meters.

deeper. It gets this completely device, it just, or melts. It’s some amazing.

ice,

formation to find on the ground in these

places. 

joe: yeah.

So temperatures, I mean, so yeah. 

So 

nick: that sounds like fresh water to me, 

joe: yeah. Well, I don’t know. There’s probably mineral stuff in that water. Yeah. 

So you’re 

geo: your bag you’re ready 

joe: ready to 

nick: to go. 

joe: No, so you have radon, a radioactive order less gas that, that can affect you, that, that are found in caves.

So, yeah. So there are. 

[00:19:00] Conditions, 

You need food to eat. So if you are living in a cave, you have to then grow things to eat. So there are some challenges. It’s not just, go down in a cave and 

nick: up I’m 

joe: set up shop. But there

are 

ernie: the other thing Is

You get your like, 

The day, night circuit Yeah. Circadian rhythms. 

joe: That’s right. Yep, 

ernie: yeah.

European 

Space

Agency, they actually have a

program where they’ll take astronauts down in their caves as part of,

like kind explor.

Exploration, kind of

a training

and such, and it’s called

CAVES 

actually

It’s a real unique name, but it’s really cool program 

to have. And

it’s over to lava tubes over 

in the

Canary Islands. And 

you go down

and you’ll spend days,

and days 

of a week or more down 

in the caves 

and.

your sense of day night is just completely gone

Because you have no keying of 

the

sun, you know, the sunrise, sunset, and all 

those types of 

things. So, 

but

the, it’s really good analog 

to just, you know, how to go 

and do exploration in extreme environments.

joe: Yeah. 

Yeah. 

mary: have a question 

about that, 

if you don’t mind. I want so when, how long does it, I mean, [00:20:00] does it take for people to get off their circadian rhythm when they’re underground? 

joe: Sir was, oh, 

go ahead. 

ernie: I, I wouldn’t be the right person to

ask

mary: Oh, okay. 

I 

geo: was 

joe: say I, 

ernie: But it’s it does happen. I know 

nick: And, 

ernie: one instance I can, I don’t know the researcher’s name, but he did a self study. He put himself down in cave for. You’ve heard of this year, but

a really super long time. I mean

like Weeks, months or something. 

And

when 

he came 

back out, 

he was 

completely skewed. He didn’t take a clock or watch or anything.

with him, but when he came

back, out, when it was done, he 

thought Only like a certain amount of time.

had passed, and it had been, I don’t know, twice that or something. It had been significantly longer time that he thought

It 

actually passed, 

joe: Michael, Siffre 

in 1962. He actually went down with no timepiece, so this is a self sign. This, I think this is a study you’re thinking about. And his internal day extended to 24.5 hours, then drifted to about 48 hours. 

mary: Oh, 

joe: by the end of the, his two months, he only thought he had been [00:21:00] down there 34 days. Then in 1972, he repeated the experiment for about six months. But he completely psychologically unraveled around month four, he was crying without cause inability to concentrate. Very suicidal coming out this experience, so Yeah.

It doesn’t, 

nick: oh, Well, how does he adapt back to

society

after 

that? 

joe: I mean that, yeah, 

mary: his name again?

joe: Michael Siffre 

nick: did they follow up on him? FRE, 

joe: So 

mary: Oh, okay. Wow. 

nick: the 

follow up? Did they do that? 

geo: I 

joe: know. It 

geo: check in on him, 

mary: was just, 

joe: he was just, he was 

geo: somebody check on him. 

joe: it was like a self experiment. Like he just, he kind of, 

mary: And we didn’t really tell anybody.

He just like, went in and just did it. Yeah. So it they might have set them back down there,

nick: if something, happened like that today, 

geo: like 

nick: they’d have their own YouTube channel and 

joe: No, you’re right. Like sensory deprivation. So that’s a big thing. 24, 48 hours, you start having full psychosis symptoms. I mean, it is a,

We are [00:22:00] the sun sets and it’s day night cycle that sets a lot of our rhythm and our biology.

So take that away, then you will become skewed. Your biological internal clocks will just get off and then that throws everything in the whack. 

So 

geo: think about people like solitary confinement and things like that. Like how much that It’s a similar 

mary: Underground experience. That’s right. Yep. 

joe: Yeah. But

ernie: it’s more similar to the astronauts out space

too. On Space Station

They get 16, 

sunrises and sunsets every day on 

space. Station going around ‘

joe: cause they’re going around Wow.

ernie: So you have to really make.

Yeah. 

You have to maintain that

day, 

night

cycle 

just by the watch. 

And make sure you do 

that

and shut down 

at the right time. Otherwise Yeah. You’d end up in the same issue

You know, crew 

going out to the moon.

They’re not 

gonna 

have 

sunrises and sunsets.

Sun’s gonna be there

the whole 

time. for 10 straight days, except

for when they go out around the moon maybe if they were,

I’m not sure

it’s a, or Dynamics completely blocks from the sun even there or not.

but 

yeah.

so it’s but there’s plays around. You just, you have to be disciplined.

You have to, you know,

you just [00:23:00] Set

up something, 

that there’s a day, night cycle that you follow.

It’s Same thing. 

if We put,

this on, bases and, 

such on the 

moon 

someday and put ’em on the ground. It’s a lot of

benefits to actually doing that,

like you said initially, Joe, but 

It’s a hard thing 

to get them there though.

joe: Yeah. Another

thing you can, full spectrum lighting. I look that up and like I said, that mimics our, the solar, benefits that you would get, the intensity and color temperature of the sun over the day cycle you would get, but only that will only partially compensate.

So, and then you also need significant power

geo: would that give you vitamin,

D? 

joe: again, if it has a full spectrum, you would be 

able to, 

Get 

some, but you probably would take 

supplements vitamin D work. 

geo: Is it something about the sun.

Like

interacts with something in your body and creates it, or I don’t understand how that 

joe: Yes.

mary: That’s the next, that’s 

the next podcast. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

geo: And vitamin

D

deficiency is such a prevail, like a,

what’s the

word? 

mary: Prevailing or prevalent. It’s very prevalent in our society. 

Yeah. Yeah. And 

geo: it causes so many [00:24:00] mental health issues and 

nick: and mm-hmm.

geo: Other health issues. Yeah. 

joe: Yeah. Yeah. 

It’s 

. It’s synthesizing the skin. We’re all ultraviolet B radiation breaks down TD hydro cholesterol into Previtt D three, which then is, I thermally into vitamin D three. So that’s the process of 

geo: that the only kind of vitamin that

works like that, or is there.

other. 

joe: I 

think that’s the only vitamin that I know of that works out in humans. But I, once again, 

a sorry.

geo: I’m just curious. I can, 

So 

I was gonna say like when, like in Fallout 

nick: I was just about to bring that up,

Thanks. 

geo: Right. Or in

like Silo. Is it Silo?

joe: Silo Yep.

Or Wool what’s the, 

geo: They obviously create these, that’s all manmade. That’s not in caves, but then they manmade the sun to come up and it seemed like 

joe: Right, 

right.

geo: In Both of those shows, they have like this, 

joe: they have some sort of cycle. They maintain that. Yep. Yeah, [00:25:00] but the other problem with those shows that, I mean, their generational volts or ca you go on the cave generationally your body will start to adapt.

So you will start to have these adaptations. But the funny thing with those shows and the fictional thing is that they just come back to the surface 

and 

they’re like totally 

geo: like, 

It’s no issue. 

joe: the full sun is right hitting ’em. They’re running around. No muscle atrophy.

They’re, they’ve kind of totally,

they’ve never lost the adaptation, even though true cave adaptation with would take, you know, millennia. But you see no effects, no ill effects of living underground. That’s really not 

geo: very plausible. 

joe: very,

ernie: Yeah, there’s another

good show. I know you probably have heard

of The Expanse.

It’s that,

sci-fi Show

it set to the others. The solar systems colonized basically.

and set. But there’s 

Mars 

is colonized and a 

lot of folks 

live underground in Mars, 

so 

they’re all ENC closed base

of that to that

point. 

of Seeing the sun and things that 

show does a really good job of

like when 

the Mars, the Martians, 

human martians 

come to earth 

[00:26:00] and

they’re just out in the Open.

they don’t

like 

it. 

The 

nick: right. 

joe: Yeah. 

ernie: in General. you know, it’s, there’s like this

Adjustment that they

have To 

take

Some of ’em just can’t in the show,

They’ve actually 

kind of hit on 

that that it would be a unnerving

a concern.

You’ve

had generations 

essentially living underground,

that now have these wide, expansive open places

and big

skies and It’s,

just, you Yeah. 

joe: I was gonna say agoraphobia would probably be a big one, that you’ve been in this tight, confined space and now just, it’s just open. You know everything there. But there are something that’s tr glo bites. They’re, 

geo: you say that again?

For blow bites, 

joe: They’re

obligate.

I like that. They’re obligate cave dwellers. So they can only live, these are animals that have truly adapted to living in a cave environment.

nick: Moles. They 

joe: live 

mary: nowhere else. right? 

joe: nowhere else. So you have the blind cave fish.

And so

there actually is a fish there has, there is a terrestrial species that’s related, but this the blind cave fish, they’ve lost their eyes and pigmentation.

So they actually don’t have an [00:27:00] optical structure. And they live in their environment. No pigmentation. You have the

om salamanders. 

nick: Is

the angular fish on there too. 

joe: What’s that? 

nick: The angular fish. Isn’t that the one with the little dangly bit on its 

joe: lives in the bottom of the ocean? Yes. Yes. 

nick: Little 

joe: it’s not, it doesn’t live in a cave, 

so it wouldn’t be on the list?

No, it lives at the bottom of the ocean. 

geo: that’s a similar thing. 

joe: I mean, yes, it’s a, it’s nothing like the bottom of the ocean.

Yes. I similar in the fact

geo: it’s dark.

always 

joe: Yes. Okay. No, no light. That’s about it. But I mean,

one is Part?

I mean, I think so. I don’t know. There aren’t angler fish Islas. I thought they had eyes. 

nick: know. Yeah, I I think they have 

All I 

geo: I know about ’em is,

the, 

joe: some, it’s very, yeah,

Then there’s om salamanders.

They’re really interesting ’cause they can live. It speculated to live like a hundred years and they can go about 10 years without food. So you just can 

geo: they’re kind of like extremophiles 

joe: they are the, all these animals are like extremophiles. And then Pale Cave Spiders was another [00:28:00] one I saw, which once again, don’t have eyes.

So, you know, there’s species of spiders. We all know terrestrially, but these don’t have eyes. And so yeah, they’re really interesting. But they live , in ca they’ve made a, they made a go at it. So life can find a way as I, you know, as I said. So 

nick: do Moles Fund fall under this or no? 

geo: Moles? 

joe: Oh, I mean, I guess, yeah.

geo: But they kind of come out. 

joe: They can come out, right? I mean, they can,

nick: they’re, 

joe: live mostly below ground. 

nick: They make their own caves. 

joe: they make their own caves.

They’re cave diggers. 

nick: Yep. 

joe: Yeah. But that’s, 

geo: you go 

joe: through. People have tried to simulate this too, like the biospheres, are you familiar with those tries that 

ernie: Out in Arizona. 

joe: Yep yep.

geo: Is that

still there?

mary: Yeah.

ernie: Yeah. 

joe: A 

destruct. 

ernie: It actually is still 

geo: Oh, wow. 

ernie: Yeah.

you can,

You,

you can, It’s maintained.

You can go and use 

it for various 

types of experiments and such, 

but 

that initial one where 

they tried 

that 

was pretty crazy 

[00:29:00] ’cause they 

tried to have 

all these 

different,

I think it’s biomes if I

got the right.

term there and just one huge

en environment 

and it 

just 

it 

didn’t 

work.

you know, it was too close

It ran together.

They had I think they had problems with

Insects.

and then They also 

had social 

Yeah. 

was

It 

was just, Yeah. 

it Was 

there 

was a lot

of interesting

results that came out of

It and, but it’s still there. It it’s definitely used. You can go out

and see it, even

geo: is 

joe: There was one and two. Yeah. They had like, it was like a bad reality show. ’cause I think fractions formed 

nick: Oh, 

joe: hated each other. Oh. And then oxygen problems, like, so oxygen levels dropped, pretty severely.

Like they totally 

underestimated that, So 

geo: not underground though, 

joe: it was above ground. But I think the idea is that if you are, I guess if you’re in a domed enclosure,

geo: to being underground. 

joe: underground. Right. 

Because, you know, 

geo: they saw the sun 

and everything because 

it was like, Yeah. 

joe: They didn’t,

have to worry about that problem.

I mean, they had a,

Ernie was saying they had a number of other 

nick: problems. 

Well,

Amazon

is 

ernie: of other 

nick: that, Show, that’s gonna be [00:30:00] like a Fallout

shelter where

it’s like a reality show where they put contestants in a biome, essentially. Yeah. So it’s like, oh are they trying to. 

emulate this? recreate that.

geo: that yeah, 

joe: yeah. 

ernie: I didn’t hear about that. 

joe: Yeah.

nick: Yeah.

Yeah. 

geo: It’s,

nick: and it’s like, oh, like, yeah. Fallout in general. Their whole thing 

is and 

geo: it gonna look like the Fallout? 

nick: Oh I hope 

joe: they’re gonna have like 

geo: no. But

like 

nick: the Vault Tech Company in the show is.

Doing different 

experiments in each of these vaults? No, I 

geo: I 

think 

joe: the 

geo: Yeah.

It’s kind of 

nick: in the show. Vault Tech, the company,

mary: right?

geo: No, No. I mean, we went from Amazon reality show, 

nick: is gonna be a Fallout

geo: they experimenting. on be inspired, 

joe: Are they experimenting on ’em? 

geo: No, but like

in Squid, you know, like squid I know I’m saying, but he s Yeah, I’m asking.

joe: So, so they, show. So they,

I’m 

asking, are we [00:31:00] still talking the reality, real reality or the fictional Vault Tech? That was my question. Like, have you moved to 

nick: Oh, I moved on. Okay. Right. I 

joe: I 

was clarifying. 

Not I got, I

I got everything else. It was just, I thought he had moved on and I was like, is this part of the show still?

Like the reality show

geo: I didn’t move 

joe: didn’t move. And then he was joking and then you just kind of went with it and I’m like, let’s take a 

geo: us when you Move on.

I 

nick: I 

can’t, 

joe: I can’t, yeah, a little segue would be nice,

nick: but, 

joe: but 

ernie: train has already left

the 

nick: Exactly.

joe: I 

was gonna say, but you have the luxury, like the speaking of Vaults I mean the, there people are buying bunkers and having those installed, but then historically we’ve had bunkers.

I was doing this in the Green Breer in West Virginia. It was like the it was this congressional 

bunker. 

ernie: too far 

joe: Yeah. Yeah. So that was really interesting that it was a luxury resort hotel kind of thing, that they kept it operational secret for like 30 years and then it was only decommissioned in the nineties after journalists exposed it.

geo: And [00:32:00] that was

the government? 

joe: the government 

that was a government funded Oh, 

geo: Oh, wow.

But don’t, does it

mary: it 

nick: it 

ernie: Is that the one though that

after nine 11

actually

got put back into use or was that another, there’s Another,

one Maryland maybe I’m

thinking of, but

there’s a couple.

of them around. yeah 

geo: yeah, Because 

I was gonna say, don’t they have something like that or they, 

and 

joe: Cheyenne Mountain is that NORAD has a facility underground. 

Yep, yep,

nick: Yep. 

ernie: But there is the one that you’re talking

about, Joe and I,

maybe it’s Greenbrier or Maybe 

it’s the one

in West in,

in Maryland 

here. But they, as far as I know, I 

was watching something

They actually

have it still 

in

use, I believe, ’cause after nine 11 they realized they, they

need to

have,

you know, continue they call

continuation of government or something. 

joe: Yeah.

Yeah. 

But this one became like a luxury resort. Like they was more than a last survival bunker. It was, 

uh, 

geo: I’m sure

there’s some of those around,

that We don’t know about,

joe: no, it’s, 

ernie: Out.

west.

some old missile silos

are, if you look, if you look up on YouTube or something, there’s a I don’t

know The guy’s name. But he’s, 

he’s

Buying 

these

missile silos and [00:33:00] converting them into luxury

bunkers for 

the end of the world kind of thing.

And there’s, I don’t know, like 10 or 15 families, whatever. 

it 

each 

one 

gets a level 

that’s essentially an 

apartment. They have 

water storage, they have 

swimming 

pool, they have all the toilet paper 

you could possibly

need.

It’s just

They have, it’s just fully

supplied with everything.

and It’s,

just

like I said, I wouldn’t even wanna

guess how much they are, but yeah, this guy

he’s selling ’em out there? People are buying,

them. 

geo: I wonder if there’s an Airbnb. 

joe: Oh, probably. I mean, that would be, 

mary: in a bunker.

ernie: There is, there

joe: aren’t there? 

Aren’t

Airbnbs 

mary: of

course,

geo: course, 

ernie: Yeah. Apparently I spend too much time watching YouTube, but one of the channels there is

joe: not a sponsor, 

ernie: couple that go around traveling all

over the place,

And one of their episodes is

Airbnb and

A Bunker. kind of 

geo: Oh

Wow. 

nick: That’s

pretty cool. kind of 

geo: cool. Yeah.

joe: But

yeah, they, I mean it, luxury bunkers is a thing. You can, there’s companies that sell ’em, you can get ’em and Yeah, they hold 

geo: well. There’s also 

joe: whatever, and,

you know,

geo: well there’s also like preppers, 

joe: right? I mean, that’s what, right, right. That’s kind of Yep, yep. [00:34:00] Exactly. 

nick: see that they had a missile silo, for

sale recently. I was like, Ooh, that’d 

be really 

joe: You’re in, I mean, you’re in the lava tube 

cave, 

so missile silo, it’s 

a, that’s 

a step up. I mean,

uh, 

ernie: but 

it’s where, it’s what your means are. You know,

either get the high 

nick: exactly.

Like,

joe: Yeah, 

nick: yeah. 

geo: I mean, it, I mean, been that, like the Paris Catacombs, I mean, so that was one of these natural caves, and it was 1774. They. More than, was it 6 million people are buried there? It was to solve the cemetery, graveyard overflow situation in Paris. And so they have these catacombs that are down 

joe: and, um, I mean,

I guess it’s cool, 

nick: Sure.

geo: wow. yeah, it’s 

nick: Super creepy. But down. 

I 

geo: I think it’s kind of cool.

Yeah, 

mary: I do too. 

joe: And then 

People get lost. I mean, down, that’s like regular caves. Like they get lost in these catacombs and, cave diving fatalities, like all these 

kind 

of things where, 

mary: Well,

ernie: That’s a thing. Like I say,

going into Cave, that’s one thing. 

I Actually, 

it’s 

[00:35:00] funny, 

my mom

is, was surprised

I didn’t up doing so much 

research

in lava tubes because 

the 

only, 

there was this 

one, 

She was a high school 

teacher

and

she helped take the science, 

Club 

to a cave,

one time. She was one of the chaperones as a local 

cave. And I went 

along with them. 

It was just one 

of these limestone caves And we had a map,

we 

had flashlights, you know, there 

was people, 

but. 

you were directed to, okay, if you

Don’t come out by a certain time. 

we come 

in, we get you. And we Went

in, we knew where we’re, we got back to where we thought the beginning

was supposed to be, and we

couldn’t find a way out. I was just like, oh my goodness.

It was just bugging me. I’ve got

all this, you know,

we’re perfectly fine. But it,

joe: Wow. 

geo: Wow. 

joe: Yeah. 

ernie: thrilled. I wanted 

to Get,

outta the cave and we couldn’t figure out. She was Really amazed. But the,

difference to me, like lava tubes, 

you 

can get lost in ’em, but 

it’s not the same kind of 

loss as in, a, in one of these limestone

case where it just 

kind of 

just, you know, fall down a hole or something.

Somewhere. It’s, you can fall down

a hole in lava tube too, I guess But it’s just the ones I’ve been very just,[00:36:00] 

it’s very known which direction you go in, what weighs it out? It’s 

very easy to

maintain,

you know, you can get lost and some get very

intertwined, but in

general,

they’re a lot more

linear, 

I 

geo: Maybe that kind of inspired you, 

ernie: What’s That 

joe: That 

geo: maybe that kind of inspired you.

ernie: Maybe it did, maybe that’s, I had to defeat that fear.

joe: Yeah, 

I think it would be an unnerving something. I was I was reading about caves, but this infrasound at 1819 Hertz it was like research in the nineties that it’s a standing waves at this frequency. So this is a sound wind resonating in caves. This in cave. You have this sound this infra sound and it causes anxiety, un ease, peripheral vision, disturbances, sensation of presence.

Like it’s this really.

nick: if I already have that? is it just amplified? then 

joe: but I mean, in, in cave especially when it, the lighting is low [00:37:00] you’re below twilight , you’re having this, , is that something you, I’ve never been in a, I’ve not, I mean, I’ve not been in a cave, 

nick: Do we have to do a rabbit hole 

joe: I know, yeah, we Have 

to go field 

trip 

ernie: you get very far down. I mean, even the

big. ones, It doesn’t take long, until it’s just dark. I mean, it’s just,

You don’t have lights with you. You don’t know what 

you’re 

gonna smack your head 

into something, or gonna trip over something. 

It’s just dark.

So Yeah. 

You have to, you go with lighting and 

it’s,

just, you’re in a 

bubble of light basically. 

So 

depending on how

bright

your light is, it’s, 

And lava tubes 

say, well, you know, they, some of them go on for a long distance.

It’s,

I really like 

the big ones just ’cause they’re so impressive 

to me. You know, just physically, I think 

that this, there’s this

huge 

just empty

space 

under the ground. 

And 

but you can get into some 

small ones 

too, and 

but yeah 

you it’s 

dark. 

There’s no, 

natural light down there. There.

joe: yeah. Yeah. That sounds 

nick: great. 

joe: Yeah. We touched on the caves and why, you wanna do it.

’cause we’re gonna build on surface basis first, I guess. [00:38:00] But, Mars, there’s no, the atmosphere, so radiation, 

geo: it’d be easier, it would be easier to control the atmosphere if it’s 

joe: it’d be easier to you, you would get radiation protection going underground is one. Thermal regulation, you know, the caves, even though they’re colder.

They are the temperatures 

geo: And Are we talking 

about caves that exist there because they are already are there? 

Or

are we talking about more like the Fallout, Silo kind of thing where you build the case? 

Well, I but it’d be really the same thing.

ernie: actually, because Yeah.

Once

you get on the ground 

it’s

it provides on the moon, like you’re saying Joe. It’s 

joe: a 

ernie: thermal regulation, it’s protection from Radiation, and it’s also protection from micro meteoroid. So any kind little, there’s no atmosphere. So anything that’s outer space is just gonna Yeah. So it protects you from all three of those, Which is really key.

On the moon and Mars

eventually too. ’cause there’s

no radiation protection like there is on,

Earth with the

Magnetic.

Magnetic sphere and stuff. so, You Gotta,

have that, but

you gotta 

get down 

to it. 

And 

it’s, 

it

[00:39:00] would provide a lot 

and you can actually get some of that on Earth 

if you cover or on earth, On

The 

surface of the moon.

If You 

take

the lunar regular lift, so the dirt

and 

you cover

up your shelter with that. 

you’ll

get some 

thermal regulation, 

you’ll get some 

of the protection. like meter, you’ll get Some radiation protection. And it’s the same idea. You’ve got 

this, 

you know, natural, 

Surface on top of you that 

just 

protects you from that 

So

One of some 

of the ideas for 

underground though, is that 

people have

is, you know, one is you put.

in

premium. Paid

habitats. Another Is

that 

you

somehow 

seal

the,

cave off 

so that you can

you know. to maybe Georgia’s

point there, you can actually,

then fill it with an atmosphere. 

but then you gotta Fill every little

crack and make

sure you don’t have any leaks or not too many leaks or something like that.

geo: Yeah.

ernie: and 

then There’s 

concern, 

with

On earth you

have earthquakes. 

So if 

you know, like you have moon, you have Moonquakes Mars you have, 

Mars Quakes and

if it, 

shakes 

and you’re underground, you know? What does that.

mean?

It’s

structurally sound,

Is it not structurally sound? You have stuff falling on you that [00:40:00] you start getting leaks. If you seal it,

It’s all engineering concerns. So it’s geotechnical concerns. It’s

things that you can figure out a way to,

probably

address.

joe: no, I mean, is this a situation where you would combine where you would build a habitat in the cave, , you don’t have to use the natural walls of the cave. Can you build, just have a structure within the cave that would have some. Movement and things like that, or is that 

ernie: Yeah,

so you can 

Exactly.

You could take a 

shelter down there, maybe

like an inflatable

shelter or just say 

run through a structural shelter 

to maintain your atmosphere 

and

then you get the other protection from. the cave, like 

you said. So even if it does shake a

little bit

assuming it doesn’t just, well

pull out, collapse on you.

it’s, you’re not

having to worry about the loss of atmosphere. that part of it.

So 

nick: do we deal with 

the 

ernie: do a survey? 

geo: and

nick: stuff

on earth with, you know,

underground

bunkers and stuff like that? Like it, do 

joe: you put on where it is? Not earthquakes. No

nick: Well, can’t earthquakes happen

anywhere? Like

isn’t that. Like

mary: there’s a

joe: thing. 

geo: [00:41:00] some 

joe: Some places are a little more Right, yeah.

ernie: yeah, They’re more 

likely to happen certain 

places than others,

though. Like, 

joe: you know, 

ernie: around 

The where the plates

all can

meet up. So boundaries between plates, tectonic plates

on the earth, Those are, 

you know, primary 

locations for

For earthquakes, 

you know.

where you, 

see major faulting and 

things 

like that. So if you’re in the center of a plate, you’re less likely.

Still there’s other

things that 

can cause earthquakes. like 

on 

the East coast

you can actually get, 

nick: there

ernie: there 

was some 

really severe 

earthquake. It was a 

very severe earthquake, I don’t know, probably 20 years ago now. or Something 

and it 

had to do with

The 

soil.

And so that’s

really

basically

because of

the structure. 

So it was, The earthquake itself was relatively small, 

but

the, it was

augmented, as I said by the structure of 

the earth itself. 

So, 

but you could, you would know that you 

can study the Earth. 

you can say 

the moon, you could find those

locations.

There’s not 

plate 

boundaries on the Moon like 

there is,

on earth, but you know, if You need enough studying, you might be able to start figuring 

out where 

they occur versus where they

don’t. Or just how

it 

would be billed to them

Just like 

in [00:42:00] California. 

nick: Interesting. 

joe: I think the other thing in a lot of these is food 

nick: I was Gonna ask that. next. really 

joe: like, and it was, 

geo: you can grow

potatoes

on Mars, you 

grow

joe: you can grow potatoes on Mars. I, but I, something was this from nasa, late seventies researched the cells, the controlled ecological life support system project where they were , trying to determine what you would need.

But it was like a crew of four needs, approximately 50 meter squared of agricultural growing space per person to be nutritionally self-sufficient. And so that’s, that’s quite a bit of area , to grow food and crops and a lot of show, , especially fictional, usually they got one little room with some plants in it and they’re like, , they got a hundred, 200 people in this compound.

You’re like, hold on this little,

geo: or like the 

train in 

joe: Yeah. Or, yeah. 

Right, snow. piercer. Right, right. 

geo: They had the one car. 

joe: have the,

like, you know, 

mary: that’s gonna 

satisfy everybody.

yeah.

joe: I think they’re, they had like the [00:43:00] little jelly cubes, which is probably like soy green. So for people that haven’t seen that I’m not.

I’m not gonna spoil it.

geo: gonna spoil it. 

joe: Not gonna spoil it, but it was grandpa.

geo: I think You just

mary: said 

geo: right? 

nick: Yeah.

geo: Yep.

joe: Yeah, I know. But food is one and water recycling. Right? ’cause you have these closed environments, waste , and

waste. , hopefully you recycle some of it. 

nick: to fertilize your land and

joe: land and like when, I mean, Nick was joking, like on earth with ice, , whatever you have a water source and you can probably purify it and make it potable.

I 

geo: I

don’t think, he was joking on,

nick: I was serious

joe: on Mars, on the moon water is a hard commodity to come by. , I think they think there’s ice, frozen ice at the poles. 

ernie: So there is,

but Yeah.

And like

as far as recycling, the space station 

actually 

does that. It Recycles, I just saw it recently

too. It’s some very high percentage of the water.

It’s High.

nineties, I 

joe: Yep. 

Yep. 

mary: Yeah.

ernie: they are able to recycle It’s been recycled multiple times

[00:44:00] now over the years. So it has saved

hundreds, if 

not thousands of

kilos of you know, transporting

water to the space station. 

joe: right.

mary: right. 

ernie: And so

there’s 

some of that technology is 

actually

getting

developed 

you know, carbon,

dioxide side you know, removal,

things like that.

so 

a lot 

of 

regenerative

type of work on station. 

is being done.

But, you know, to the point of doing it on the moon’s got,

a, we believe

it has water

or frozen ice, we’ll say it has volatiles. So

anything

that

will freeze 

as a, you know

was 

there, 

but it’s not gonna be most,

if we don’t expect it to be chunks of ice, like

Hey, we,

found a big glacier. It’s

likely it’s just,

imagine a bunch of sand that had some water in it,

Just a little bit of water. 

in it. I’m not even talking much. 

And it’s just kind of 

all 

in there. And We have to figure

our way to 

process.

it to get it outta there. And It’s gonna take, 

it’s 

gonna be something that’s on large scale 

as far as like most likely

needed

to

get enough to.

provide for any sizeable, type of community on 

that. 

So it’s gonna have to [00:45:00] be a 

real, 

it’s gonna 

be a problem. that needs to be figured out

is how do you do it efficiently to actually provide,

but 

we think there’s plenty there. 

It’s just

joe: Yeah.

getting it out, right. Extracting it. Mm-hmm. 

Yeah, it’s always interesting when you have stories, what Isaac Asimov’s caves of steel and there was like, hundreds of thousands of people in the cave living doing their best lives.

That structural, how you handle these systems is not trivial. To do it like just the space station. There’s, you know what, at one time, six, seven crew members, or 

seven, yeah. Six, 

ernie: seven, seven

compliments, seven crew 

members now. But they 

nick: I gotta throw something at Mary. Hold on. 

joe: See I said six in another number and that, that 

ernie: Oh no, 

this, 

nick: Hold on, 

in the studio.

Joe, how much do you like that guitar?

ernie: nice, nice. Well played.

geo: Thank you.

mary: you. 

joe: Sorry, 

I didn’t mean to cut you 

off 

there.

ernie: It’s okay. But

No 

you hit on

a [00:46:00] bunch,

of things.

Joe. 

It’s like, you know, even we, the cave is just,

a shoulder. It’s, but it’s

getting, and it

might be large enough.

but then It’s getting the volume

that, that you’ve

enclosed now. You can make it

or to provide, you know,

what you need there. You have food, you have to be able to get enough

WA source water,

or oxygen,

Carbon 

dioxide removal.

And

It’s

getting 

the area 

like you say to support, 

you know,

’cause we just, on Earth it’s just, you know, we got

half

us that can grow stuff. Basically

for the population

or probably more, you know, and it’s

having enough on 

the moon or Mars or something. It’s 

It’s kinda one of those things 

like a 

science 

fiction, 

You got

I’ll go back to a movie

or a show that Expanse

It’s, they do Some

of this stuff 

really Well, they really thought about it.

in there where they Have

like the

moons of

I think it’s the moons of

Saturn or Jupiter, I forget which that

Is

that they 

Essentially 

have

as the agricultural bread basket.

of the

solar system and it’s feeding All these

asteroid

communities and all

these 

Space stations where if

they go 

under,

that’s it.

[00:47:00] Because there’s, That’s 

where it 

actually comes from 

because it, this

is needs to be done on massive industrial scale. So it,

Yeah. 

joe: yeah. 

I mean that was that was 

Time machine with the Morlocks. Remember the Morlocks lived underground, then you had the, what, the Eloy

Lived

above ground.

mary: It’s been a long time. 

joe: I mean it, once again, it was a cannibal situation, but nonetheless the people on the surface was feeding the people

mary: the 

geo: people

joe: below. That was the idea there. So there, there was you know, some thought to that back in what was that was also late 18 hundreds. 

nick: Joe, I think I have a question.

I think it might be for you. Oh, 

joe: oh. 

nick: Is 

there plant life in caves and stuff like, 

joe: so 

there’s no, because of the light situation, there’s no light. So you’re not you’re not gonna have photosynthesis because you need light to have photosynthesis, but I bet you would have other bacterium that are close to that. But you, you might not have plant, you won’t have frozen synthetic organisms.

So [00:48:00] 

nick: if you 

grow, like

grow, lights, can you grow stuff underground then? Sure. 

Like,

Is the soil gonna be okay enough for it or is 

it, 

geo: if 

joe: you’re bringing the lights, you can bring the soil. 

nick: What if you didn’t pack the soil? 

geo: Well, 

but 

joe: I’m sure you can, uh, Yeah, 

right. I mean, you’re kind of 

in, listen,

nick: I come with lights, no soil. 

joe: Well, I guess if you have water, you could do it where you grow with hydroponics you. I mean, other thing we haven’t talked about maybe is doing genetic editing and using some genetic tools to modify organisms to fit our requirements. , be it living out in space and or living underground.

And so the foods we eat, you can modify. So maybe you do things that are more aquatic. So you would then use algae or cyanobacteria and then they would actually produce products. So you get a twofer or a three fer. They would actually make different things for you that 

nick: would that also then also

joe: also then can 

nick: your CO2 problem.

Your carbon problem. Right. [00:49:00] 

joe: It could be a way to scrub the app. I mean, you know the balance is right. Yeah. I mean you would need the balance probably isn’t there? I don’t know if they would use as much CO2 to 

geo: You 

joe: or get rid of 

it or vent 

geo: in a lot of stuff. 

joe: Yeah.

Yeah. But

nick: I am

just trying to plan my own.

I, Yeah. So 

joe: no caves 

as is a dark cave will have No, you’re not growing any plants. So be it cyanobacteria, be it algae, be it plants. None. No. Jules Verne Sun 

geo: you have your lights or you 

joe: or you have like skylights. I guess you could have these pockets where you would have

ernie: but some

of these yeah, some of these latitudes, like

I say, has some sort of, and I’m not the expert on

what type of planet, but it is a, It’s

A

growth of

some sort. Like I say, there’s bold silverish

colored growth, and it’s. But

yeah, you have

to have the right

condition. It’s not, certainly not in

everyone, it just happens like the

moisture’s just right?

The gross, is right.

and it’s just that they’ve adapted

to Growing, and living

and gaining their energy. without the 

joe: They would, they live on methane, so like a stream of files. They live on [00:50:00] some other carbon source methane, which is in a lot of caves. So they can actually start growing on other, , materials like, heat vents, and thermo vents in the ocean, right?

So we’re talking about the ocean. We have stream of files there that can actually use those resources and use alternate kind of pathways to sustain their life. But yeah, it’s probably not photosynthetic. 

geo: And you probably don’t have enough extre of files to eat. I 

joe: know if you should be eating 

nick: I don’t. Yeah. What 

joe: So yeah, 

nick: you just wanted to say 

joe: let’s leave those extreme of fouls may maybe the spiders. I mean maybe the, you know,

nick: catch 

some spiders and eat 

joe: and the you know,

nick: eat a hundred year old salamander. 

joe: Yeah.

Little 

geo: oh, 

joe: hunter year. Other,

Underground refuges the matrix they were down in Zion. That was an underground , they had to go to the core to get to geo the geothermal heat because they were gonna be cold because they blacked out the sun, the, to stop the machines.

And that’s why the machines [00:51:00] used them as batteries, which was it’s kind of dumb. But they did that. And you know, and

they were

down in Zion. 

ernie: I hadn’t thought about that movie in a long time. Yeah, that’s right. Underground.

joe: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. once again, they didn’t really touch on the food. They had the, some slop or something they were eating, some sort of mush. 

nick: I’m Pretty sure it was just decomposed humans. 

geo: Pretty, 

nick: They’re just like, these

humans eat human food. And that’s humans. 

joe: well, I mean, the people, , they had, I mean, they’re living underground.

Once again, you need like, you know, how would you how would you have this.

nick: humans

joe: are they eating? Yeah. Oh, okay. But yeah, that would be the, 

mary: I’m not going to Nick’s world. 

joe: Yeah, Probably grow yeast. 

mary: I’m all stringy and tough. 

joe: Talk about, you know, fungi, but yeast, you could grow yeast, vats of yeast, and

I think that’s what they did in caves of steel, Asimov’s caves of steel.

They had, they made yeast like stuff. Yeah.

Yeah.

nick: then how are you making flour for the 

joe: don’t, no, you just eat the 

geo: Yeah. You don’t, yeast is right. You’re not making

joe: [00:52:00] products

out of it. It’s 

nick: You’re eating yeast. just 

joe: you just eat yeast. The yeast. Yeast cakes. Yeast patties. 

mary: then 

how long are you doing that 

joe: for your whole 

mary: Years. 

joe: Years.

Years 

mary: Years and How long do you plan on,

nick: living? 

joe: what are we having for dinner today? 

mary: Oh,

geo: Yeasty? 

mary: Yeast,

nick: yeast.

same

thing. we have every night.

joe: Yeas. This is, this meal is yeasty.

ernie: Makes that decision real easy.

joe: Is that what the, is that what the astronauts are eating yeast 

what’s going 

ernie: Yeah. 

That’s all they eat. That’s all we

send them with actually. Yeah.

geo: No, they have that 

ernie: Youas patties we even put it in their water for yeast drinks, but.

joe: You 

geo: They have the fun little freeze 

dried things.

They 

joe: I know. Don’t you get a Smithsonian? A little pack 

ernie: They actually got, they have some pretty good food. Yeah. They,

joe: Oh they, yeah. 

nick: Is that something that they actually eat though?

Those like,

I feel like those are too

crumbly and.

they’re getting in everything that’s

ernie: all of the ice cream

nick: Yeah.

geo: What? 

joe: What? 

ernie: That’s just for the, 

tourist 

mary: is 

joe: Is that, 

nick: I’m like,

I ate one of those. 

joe: you get the freeze dried strawberries. Like that’s,

nick: they get [00:53:00] everywhere. 

joe: we 

ernie: It’s like the worst combination of a rice cake and whatever else.

joe: it’s

very like artificially tart. I don’t know. I don’t think they’re real strawberries. 

ernie: No they’ve got some they,

they

take with, 

joe: Yeah, 

ernie: Yeah.

They’ve got &. m and mss they’ve got, although they’re, I think They’re

called sugarcoated

candies, you know, I can’t

call ’em m and ms. But then they’ve got other, you know, they’ve,

They have a whole,

you 

Just add a little of water 

rehydrate it. 

and off you go.

You know,

it just like food we have here

On earth.

for the most part. 

mary: part. 

joe: Yeah. Now, you were involved with astronaut training, so how do they get prepared to go into these kind of extreme conditions.

ernie: yeah. So, yeah, 

I was a number 

of years trained them for space walks 

and just 

general, 

you know, crew 

training 

and

then I was 

flight

draw console for,

’em. so 

but yeah, we 

you know, we pretty much 

just, 

we 

don’t train ’em at all.

We just put’em on 

a rocket.

and launch em and say Good luck.

nick: I’m so in, let’s 

go. 

Screw the underground. I’m going to space, 

joe: everything’s gonna be fine. Just get some 

sun. 

ernie: all kinds of [00:54:00] good luck. We’ll see you in a

week. 

joe: yeah, yeah. don’t don’t go crazy. We don’t want horror movie here in space. So, 

ernie: no, we run ’em through all kind of simulations. Basically

they’ll, we’ll 

put 

in mockups that look 

just 

like 

the vehicles they’re gonna 

be in. 

We’ll run through the timelines, the activities, just like they’re gonna do in space, If it comes 

to food or something like that.

sometimes

yeah, they’ll have 

the actual food there. I didn’t do that

kind, of training, but yeah, they go and

They 

actually test out, figure out, I

like this. 

and I don’t like that.

And they’ll make up their own 

joe: I thought you meant, you taught ’em how to eat. Like you use a fork, you lift it to your mouth now. 

geo: Well, it probably is

ernie: That’s right. 

joe: a little sippy cup. Like, 

geo: well, that 

is a challenge because Right. 

You See all those 

things with like astronaut and then like the water’s like floating in there.

And then 

nick: I think they do that as a they do that ‘

joe: on purpose. They’re not, yeah. Yeah, 

they’re not, that’s not how they eat their 

dinner. It’s like the ice cream

geo: does. 

ernie: It’s real similar to down here. Like I say, you re, you rehydrate it and you warm it up and you Fill up your drink bag or you make 

some coffee, and

Yeah, it’s just that you have to drink [00:55:00] it 

all with a straw

and with the food

you can open up the packet. use a 

fork,

spoon, whatever. You know, 

it’s 

Actually

one, one of the 

astronauts, he actually 

figured out a way to make a space 

coffee cup where 

he could put the,

and actually

kind of 

drank like

he was drinking from a cup. He used like, surface.

tension and things like

that For, 

joe: kind like, yeah. 

mary: yeah.

joe: Yeah. So yeah, that’s

nick: I feel like we’ve covered a lot this we did. Yeah. A lot of fun.

joe: I mean, it seems like we’re ready to go live in some caves in space. 

mary: absolutely not. like 

nick: I’m in actually

mary: I

was a kid.

ernie: the high end ones. 

geo: Yeah, 

that’s 

joe: right. no, when I was 

mary: a kid. That’s funny. I actually when I got really excited thinking that in the future we would live in caves on the moon, and I was super psyched 

To 

live in a cave 

On the moon 

and nothing could tempt 

me away from the planet Earth. I am not,

joe: I thought 

nick: thought you were gonna 

go with, I used to live in a cave. 

Yeah, 

joe: right. 

nick: No, 

mary: but no, I used to 

think that was like just, I, you know, 

geo: would be Yeah. 

mary: if it felt very snug and cozy

and, in the [00:56:00] sixties illustrations, 

you know?

so, yeah, yeah. 

joe: It’s what they get away 

ernie: realistic possibility. 

It’s

It’s 

got a lot of advantages. It’s just being able to get it.

down there and start it, you know,

and get, finding the right

entrance, 

into It

and 

make it have enough floor that you can work with 

and getting your hardware in 

there. It’s there’s 

actually 

national it’s on this note, national Geographic has a

neat little miniseries. It’s several 

years old now on Mars and

the initial

cruise to 

Mars and then it basically 

evolves into that. They found their whole goal, the initial crew, was to 

find 

a lava tube

and then they

were able to expand 

because

they can use the lava tube for all the

advantages it

has

And then the future episodes actually show how they

expanded

this into a small community living

down into enormous lava tube. So it’s 

certainly 

down the road 

as we get the 

capability, to actually an infrastructure in 

place.

They could come into play. 

joe: Yeah.

mary: Yeah.

ernie: Also just,

Sorry.

Just think scientifically too, 

it

got access to 

stuff that you’re not gonna have 

on 

the surface, [00:57:00] that’s gonna have access to things that are

tens of millions, 

hundreds of millions, potentially billions 

of years old 

geologically that

You’re 

not gonna have access 

to 

on 

the surface. So From a scientific standpoint, there’s 

a lot of 

interesting things.

to learn

by getting into these

case as well. So It’s,

you got the practicals end and you got the, the scientific,

end.

It’s,

Yeah.

joe: you think, we’ll, if you get into these caves, what’s the odds life is there? Or the remnants of life? I mean, is that where we would best find it?

I mean, that’s what it feels like. That’s

ernie: Yeah.

that’s a good 

question.

though. On the moon, It’s unlikely.

Mars 

may 

I, would just be guessing, is, you know, it’s, 

that’s not my area of 

expertise, 

but 

the 

more 

benign environment. 

Now, it’s 

still gonna be very low pressure, just like 

the rest of,

Mars, but the benign, you know, thermal

environment you know,

reduction radiation, 

geo: Right.

ernie: have no 

idea. It would, you would have those advantages. So,

Yeah.

I, 

joe: Yeah. 

nick: Wait, so you said you work for NASA

and You don’t know if there’s aliens out there? I don’t know, man.

ernie: I didn’t say, I [00:58:00] don’t know, I guess, but 

I 

mary: Ah,

ernie: you.

nick: damnit.

I thought I was gonna get ’em on that one. 

joe: Yeah.

ernie: It’s funny is that, that though, because I

Actually

When I worked at 

NASA 

I would go to Kennedy Space Center 

sometimes 

to get ready for the shuttle 

launches to help. And 

there was this 

one 

building

that we had all this, 

you know, a lot of hardware 

and stuff

that’s being processed through, 

taken out 

to the shuttle 

and there’s this one area that’s got this

giant door on, it looks like a

an 

enormous 

freezer door or something like that

And somebody as a 

joke had put a little, like handwritten eight and a half by 11 paper, whether it frozen aliens.

and put a piece

on. Or did Yeah. Or was that, yeah, no. 

nick: they wanted it to look like a joke.

mary: Yeah.

joe: Yeah.

geo: Yeah. 

joe: Yeah. Well, so I think we’re coming to the end. Yeah, we covered a lot. I mean, we see the, fictional stuff, you, like, we Matrix, you start seeing it, you can think of other environments. One that I, you know, I throw out a Severance the Apple TV show,

nick: [00:59:00] Mm-hmm. They live underground. 

joe: well, they live in that building, which is just, it’s no windows.

There’s no outdoor

this 

geo: have that little outdoor

Field trip. thing, 

remember? Well,

joe: they went well, that’s, yeah. They did go outside somewhere, 

geo: that seems like that was Still

on the, in the compound or something It 

joe: was like artificial. Yeah. No real light. So, no, it was a very the ecosystem of Severance is like a, it’s, you know, it’s like a building, but it’s, it might be underground.

I don’t, the elevator, they don’t really disclose which way to go. 

geo: It’s like 

the Back Rooms, 

joe: it’s like the Backroom. There 

you

Yeah. So, but yeah, you see this in fiction a lot in our fear, the horror of. Being in an enclosed space. Even

geo: just basements are kind of creepy, 

scary 

joe: Basements. 

mary: Except this 

basement’s 

very cozy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

joe: yeah. So

geo: Our bunker. 

joe: Yeah. In the 

mary: it is. This is a very cozy basement. 

joe: Ernie, do you have some final thoughts 

ernie: It looks like it is. 

mary: yeah, it is great.

nick: Yeah. 

joe: Yeah.

ernie: Oh no. This [01:00:00] has been great. 

Really enjoyed talking with you guys. This is a really fun evening. So I appreciate you guys inviting me and it’s

like I say

The 

exploration, we’ll see where it goes. you know? there’s possibilities out there. There’s Definitely 

advantages. 

to caves. There’s

A lot of

benefits

to,

’em, but

you know,

it’s

Gonna take some 

time. This is 

today, like I say today, 

Artemis two.

geo: Yeah. 

nick: Yep. That’s 

ernie: first step. 

Finally Getting back to trying to do some 

of this stuff 

and going out there and exploring these planets and seeing what we can

do. So it’s exciting.

Exciting day from that perspective, 

and

And yeah, 

I’ve had a really nice time talking with you guys,

ever. You, 

joe: so

ernie: if you

all 

deemed me worthy.

enough, I would do.

geo: Yeah,

joe: Yeah, definitely. We’ll, 

so I, I do sure 

I do have a question. I don’t know if Nick has 

nick: I did, but if you have one 

joe: no, go for it. I mean, maybe we can both do it. We got a little time, but I was gonna ask, and we can, everyone can do it, is would you go live in the caves of Mars?

So you, you get the you get the option. Are you packing up headed to, is that what you were gonna ask? 

nick: No, I was gonna say what fictional. 

joe: Oh, we can do that [01:01:00] one too. Yeah. Yeah. But let’s say let’s real life caves of Mars. Like they, we’ve got something, we got a structure and they say, you know, Dr.

Bell, we need you. 

ernie: So I’ll be honest.

It’s

why 

I don’t 

say I

to live in,

a cave is why I do. I do, but well, my, my career,

mary: I.

ernie: I could go live in a cave without doing what I do actually, you know? But

my Career is, you know,

ever

since, even before I met Joe, you know, even growing up, this space exploration was just like, kinda I think Mary, you might have 

mentioned 

too, growing up. It was just 

what 

you’re, it was just so interesting and

really

piqued

my interest, 

like the 

first

shuttle launch. 

and 

joe: Yeah.

nick: Yeah. 

ernie: such.

And so 

would I 

go?

Yeah. 

That’s what I’ve been trying to do,

They keep not giving me a ticket. I don’t know why, but they, I haven’t gotten that ticket yet. So,

nick: But

ernie: yeah,

that’s, I would love 

to 

go and explore. Yeah. That, 

I think that exploration 

is just part 

of what 

humans 

Need. And just part of what 

as a human society 

need to 

keep pressing forward. And

It’s 

personal level. Yes. But [01:02:00] society level too. I think it’s 

just, if we 

don’t 

we stagnate, we gotta keep. Seeing, well,

What’s 

over the next.

hill? What’s around the 

next corner? And 

this is

part of 

It.

and,

You know, would I wanna come back.

to Earth though, to your question? Probably. So, you know, nice

to see you guys.

again.

You know,

people, family. But but Yeah. I think it be an amazing.

adventure. 

geo: Yeah.

joe: I would say too, we didn’t mention this at the top, but Ernie and I we went to college together, at Penn State Behrend , and our rooms were right next door, our first year Perry Hall, which was like living in a cave with its unsteady

heat, and we did have windows, but other than that, you didn’t know if you’re gonna have heat some nights or whatever. But but yeah, that’s how Ernie, that’s how 

long 

ernie: time I was there I actually had a new roof. Yeah.

geo: Yeah.

ernie: So maybe they have heat.

joe: Yeah. Right. So 

nick: Joe, would you

go

to Mars? 

joe: I think I would. Yeah. No, I think they need electronic microscopist there.

Study the life that, you know that we’ll find. Or maybe not fine. I don’t know. Or we bring the life, right? I mean, no one talks about that. If we start [01:03:00] dropping things on the surface. Or in these caves which can maybe sustain life, do we now create new extremophiles that live on the surface of Mars or any other planet that we send probes to?

The I know when they send these things, they try to sterilize it. They try to do their best, but it’s not a hundred percent. 

nick: a theory, Joe. don’t worry. 

joe: You 

ernie: that’s a whole other discussion. And that’d be a really interesting one to have because

Planetary

protection is this whole 

thing and it’s like 

joe: yeah.

ernie: There’s two 

Sides.

to that 

story. There’s, you know, to keep it pristine and then there’s the side, like you’re saying, it’s like, well

Let’s make use of 

this

How can we Make 

use of it, so.

That would be a Really interesting.

discussion. 

joe: Yeah.

And not like they did in Total Recall , they lived in the caves and then they had the oxygen generating machine. Like, it, that doesn’t, that wouldn’t work the way they, if you guys aren’t familiar with that, go watch the Arnold Schwartzenegger 

Total 

geo: remember their eyes popping. 

joe: That’s right. Yeah. Because they were out in the atmosphere and then the oxygen flowed over ’em, and then they could breathe like the atmosphere [01:04:00] created in like , 10 minutes or something. So, yeah. 

mary: Lucky for them.

So we 

geo: already know, Mary 

joe: of handwaving there. 

mary: Ab Yeah. Absolutely 

not. 

No. This 

is a hard no for me. 

I’m gonna stay

I’m 

gonna, stay here 

while 

You all you kids 

geo: a postcard. 

mary: Yeah, 

joe: now would you, would 

you do an earth cave? Would you go into, like, they go, Hey, we’re opening up Cave City and Mary, would you like to join us in Cave City in Utah? I don’t know 

mary: oh, 

joe: where’s a cave city would be at Ernie.

Like, is that

nick: I feel like that’s a Midwest thing. 

mary: It just therapists, 

ernie: We’re so.

mary: Ernie

The’s hands gives up? 

No, 

but I, no I would certainly visit Cave 

City.

I have visited caves.

In, when I I grew up in Southwest Virginia. 

And then there’s, 

A natural bridge, and then there’s cave cave 

systems in there you know, all throughout the Blue Ridge Mountains. And they’re really quite lovely. Cool.

Yeah. Very much explored. I am not a, well, there’s the [01:05:00] movie, the Descent, you 

know? that, so, yeah. So, the movie, the Descent, is just 

like,

this

is why you

don’t 

explore 

caves. You 

you know, 

nick: that is why you explore 

mary: No, absolutely 

not. Is 

joe: a spelunking.

Isn’t that the cave? Yeah. 

mary: Splunking. Yeah.

But

yeah, 

Georgia I’m also a little claustrophobic too. so. Yeah. Yeah. 

geo: don’t, think I want it. I don’t. 

know.

I don’t, I think maybe if it’s a luxury

bunker 

Airbnb, 

that

would be Fun.

mary: it would be fun to 

visit. I certainly wouldn’t wanna live there.

though. 

joe: And we 

geo: already know

Nick, 

joe: Nick’s ready to go. 

mary: Oh, Nick’s 

already there. 

joe: is packed. 

nick: only thing is, I don’t think I’d have enough to offer to

anyone in on Mars. 

mary: You, 

joe: They need workers, man.

mary: They I don’t do 

nick: that. I you 

joe: they 

mary: need, coffee. 

joe: was 

geo: gonna 

say, they don’t

want you to roast some 

joe: Yeah. I mean,

well they have the, and I would see the show For All of Mankind where they go, if you’ve seen, it’s like an alternate history on Apple plus tv and they have that whole thing.

And then Mars spaces are started and they [01:06:00] have, recruited workers from Earth. They come there just to labor. ’cause they’re building these structures under, I think they’re underground. There’s some above ground, but then they’re underground. Yeah. There, there’s a combination of both.

They did have some food pots, which was nice to see. They did actually were growing corn, which.

mary: mm-hmm. 

nick: Kind of 

joe: an 

interesting choice of foods to grow, but it’s interesting to run through and it made a good scene, but I don’t know if that’s the food stuff’s 

nick: I mean, I 

can cook for people.

Yeah, sure. is that worth my, 

joe: My yeah, they had a Domino’s there and they, the, you know, for all mankind had like a Domino’s, they had like bars, I mean, so yeah, 

nick: oh, I don’t do corporate stuff. Sorry. 

joe: well, 

, if they’re punching your ticket, , it’s expensive. Probably to, I don’t know. What’s a per person cost to fly?

I mean, is that, I mean,

ernie: To go to space. 

joe: to go to space.

ernie: yeah. Wow.

joe: Not, not a celebrity price. Like for fuel and stuff, like, is there, you know, the weight, I mean, just, is there some ballpark, , bottom dollar not, we’re trying to fund an entire space program, but we’ve commercialized it. Is [01:07:00] there like a number, like,, would it be 10,000.

ernie: remember what 

It was.

It seemed like

It’s changed. It was like

I 

wanna say, it was in a ballpark of 10,000, or something like that.

per 

pound or something like that.

joe: like that. Yeah.

ernie: And it’s

by

an order of almost 10, you know, so 

maybe 

a thousand. It depends on

the rocket 

too. 

I 

mean, to send something, it’s just, you know, It depends on,

how,

SpaceX, they’re launching those Falcon Nines and they’ve really gotten a price down, You know,

like an order of magnitude probably.

But then 

it’s 

like the 

SLS one that launch,

today, very expensive rocket. It’s you know, 

it’s on the order.

of a couple billion dollars, I believe per rocket or

something like that. So it’s it varies widely, but

There’s definitely ways to make it efficient

and SpaceX Orgin starting to do that, to do now, so,

yeah.

joe: Yeah. 

nick: I’m just not going on the Spirit airline. version of it, 

joe: right. You’re yeah. Yeah.

ernie: It just depends on what, you know. Do you want the oxygen,

Do you want the food? You 

joe: Do you want a seatbelt or not? That’s how you going? Let’s hold on to the strap.

ernie: do you, all right. Outside or

inside? 

joe: [01:08:00] Yeah. But that’s like a Fifth Element. They had the little pods you go to sleep in, like they put you in and you fall asleep. 

nick: I 

can do that. 

joe: Launch 

you off. Yeah.

nick: I’d be down for the sleep, hud Cool. Gimme a good little nap.

joe: Nick, you wanted to? 

nick: Yeah. And so what would be the one fictional underground society that you’d want to go to? 

ernie: Oh,

underground society. 

Boy, 

it’s 

actually 

I dunno about,

underground society, 

but

just about fictional. It’s like I

I’m torn between for All mankind.

and the Expanse.

I think that For All Mankind, that

alternate History there would be 

so amazing to be a part

of

in, in that

development.

mary: Yeah.

joe: Yeah. 

ernie: But

the

Expanse to see actually,

in 

theory, what the.

Solar 

system has,

become.

It’s not just

from the

technical side for either one of 

those, it’s 

the social, economic, you know, it’s all those 

types of 

things. 

There’s a really neat series book series. 

The Mars Trilogy, the Red, red Mars Green,

Mars that’s right. Blue Mar Stanley Robinson, And it Kind of 

fits in that same vein. It’s just,

But 

I’d be torn 

between those two 

[01:09:00] for those 

reasons.

Yeah. 

joe: Yeah. Joe,

those

are good.

Yeah, I said for all of mankind, I do also appre that storyline, alter it, , where the space race didn’t really end and there was, , we didn’t have that dip off, almost 50 years. Plus that we’ve lagged now to get back there.

So I think that’s fun. I don’t know. I if I was just gonna go crazy. Like, do something that’s totally unsustainable you. The Matrix is fun, I think. Yeah. You know, fighting 

geo: Oh, that looks fun to you. Yeah. and eating that gruel, 

nick: Didn’t they have that? rave underground 

joe: they got the big rave, 

right? It’s a big, 

nick: Joe. Just admit, you wanna Go to, the 

joe: I just wanna 

go to the party, 

nick: We can do that above ground. We can go, to a rave. I’ll have some, let’s do severe Anxiety, 

but let’s go.

joe: But I don’t, cause Ollie, , yeah. Yeah. You have this. Almost, not utopic, but the, , For all of Mankind, Expanse these kind of things where they are expanding out into the universe and put good thought into it.

You have that, or you have, you [01:10:00] know, 

dystopian. Dystopian, 

right? So, 

I mean, either you’re gonna pick the best dystopian, either, either we’re doing it because we’re, we’ve messed up Earth and so now we’re 

doing something

geo: it’s not really like, let me daydream 

joe: That’s right. Yeah. 

geo: Fallout shelter. Right?

joe: I mean, but yeah. So that’s or Silo. I mean, Silo was, or Wool the novel, but silo, I think they had it structured, but you know, once again, there’s classism.

I mean, you, it is also still not no. 

So if you’re 

gonna go full bore to Scope Matrix, I can file a debit czar or something. I 

could do something cool, 

you know, maybe 

get killed by a machine. But

geo: what do you think

mary: Oh, as a underground society, 

nick: like, 

uh, 

geo: that you would like 

nick: fictional underground. 

joe: Okay.

mary: I was thinking not necessarily of people, but

Rick

Theo has

has

Been thinking about a a new story and it involves the mycelium network

like

mushrooms, and underground network.

And I think that’s kind of an interesting underground society, you know, 

[01:11:00] Not should 

joe: become part of. 

mary: No, 

nick: she wants to be a mushroom. But

mary: I think that’s 

a, I think

that’s a, 

joe: would like be a mushroom.

mary: I

do think that’s a fascinating, 

You know, The way they communicate. You know, why 

joe: come to the Matrix?

Yeah. The come to Zion with the big party. That was like mycelium rave.

mary: I think I just need to see some light. I think that’s just 

the

God’s honest truth really. I think 

geo: hard to

really, I think it’s hard to fantasize about 

joe: going

geo: to any of, if you want sunlight, I got you. Don’t worry.

nick: But please, Georgia, go for it. 

geo: Like, I, like 

I said, I can’t really think of

I.

one that I would like to visit ’cause they’re all like,

into the world

scenarios. 

mary: true.

Or 

they’re 

actively trying to kill you. again, I’ve brought this one up already. Okay. Which one? In the Godzilla King Kong monster verse. They

nick: have the underground that has a sun. it has a whole 

joe: Verns.

I mean, I guess you could, if we’re going total hand w 

nick: under there. 

joe: Okay. 

geo: Okay, I’ll come with you,

then. Nick.

joe: I [01:12:00] thought we were 

keeping this in maybe a little less hand. W 

nick: said 

geo: fictional. 

joe: No, I mean, and I mean, yeah, I guess, 

nick: you wanted to live in the Matrix for a rave. 

That’s fine.

geo: All well on that note, 

joe: I think that’s it.

Well,, thank you Ernie, 

geo: you 

nick: so much for 

joining us. 

mary: thank you for your 

joe: you on this day. It was just kind of serendipitous that the launch happened, it went off without a hitch and we’re back. So yeah, that, that was exciting to get your thoughts on that and that geek out a little bit.

I think 

It’s just so fun 

to be in science and then have people really celebrate that. Yeah. Thanks. I mean,

geo: Yeah.

ernie: No, appreciate

it. Thanks for having me on here. I

Real, 

Real fun evening here with you guys talking through.

this stuff and made me think of some things I hadn’t thought of in a while. And

yeah, like you say it’s

Interesting.

though, that it just ended up our, this two launching and it

joe: Yeah,

ernie: kind of tied

In really nice there.

and we think that we might be on the,

verge of,

you know, moving forward with some of this stuff again. So,

yeah. really Great evening.

Enjoyed.

meeting everybody, seeing everybody. And Yeah. Lemme know if you 

joe: again. Yeah, we will. we 

got, we [01:13:00] have another episode I think we, you called it. So we’re gonna have to talk about that. You know, protecting solar life. What, whatever, what was that? 

geo: well, 

we’ll

hold 

joe: So yeah. Planetary protection, right? Yeah. You have me, Joe. 

geo: You got Nick.

joe: got Nick You got Georgia,

mary: you got Georgia. You got Mary.

joe: you got Mary. We’ve got Mary. 

geo: And

nick: we

went down some, deep cave hole.

joe: Sweet. 

stay curious. Stay safe. We love you. 

nick: Bye. Bye.

The crew revisits truth, maps, flat Earthers, and April Fool’s history. Science news: Artemis II, found time, zombie cells, and a spider disguised as a fungus. And no fooling, a fist bump with RZA

Substack, Apple, Spotify, YouTube, Amazon

j: [00:00:00] Hey, welcome back to the Rabbit Hole of Research down here in the Basement Studio. You have me, Joe. 

Nick: Yeah. Got Nick.

j: we’ve got Nick

Geo: Georgia,

j: and we’ve got Georgia here in the Mini talking about

Nick: the new name for three episodes

j: I know we’re keeping it there. Yeah we had David Detmer, retired philosophy professor.

On talking about the truth and how complicated it is. So it was a really good episode 60, Lassoing The Truth Serum. So that was a very that was a very good

Nick: was a fun episode. I enjoyed that one a lot

j: Mm-hmm.

Nick: and I think the timing of it releasing made it even better.

j: Yes. I think it’s it was very relevant to our times.

Geo: and it was on April Fool’s

j: and a release on April, no fooling on April Fool’s Day. But yeah, there was a,

Nick: you call it April Fooling? Like who are you? Fooling?

Geo: [00:01:00] we know the history of April Fool’s Day? Like why that came about?

Nick: It started all as a lie.

j: I know that’s

Geo: I’m just curious why they pick April 1st. 

j: I

Geo: Now, every day is April Fool’s Day.

Nick: I mean, April Fool’s Day doesn’t matter anymore. We got every day, other day.

j: So just a quick look of this, the origins are murky, but may trace to 1582 when France switched from the Julian to the Greg Gorian calendar. People failing to recognize the new year moved from late March to January 1st, were mocked as April Fools. It also seems to stem from spring festivals celebrating unpredictable weather.

So those two,

Geo: that’s very relevant still.

j: yep. So there’s a few others. Roman Goddess Connection, April was sacred. The Venus and the Ven area was held on April 1st, possibly tying the day to ancient [00:02:00] traditions. And then, so

Geo: Mo in the modern times, we have the whole where you purposely prank someone.

j: Yeah.

Geo: You know,

j: Yep. Modern,

Geo: like we use that as an excuse to be like, whoa, it’s April Fools Day and like,

j: papers, news, television stations will publish false stories to fool the public.

Geo: Right.

j: Kind of a

Nick: I mean, I always love those. There was only one day that one year it actually got me where I was like, what?

Geo: What was that?

Nick: it came up. Ah.

Geo: Do you remember

Nick: was a while back. I think it was, I don’t even remember. I think it was like an announcement of

Geo: Uhhuh?

Nick: and I was like, oh, wow, that’s so cool. And then it didn’t take till later that I was like, oh,

Geo: They got you. Yeah. Everyone

j: NPR did, and it was they were going to move all of the music in the Library of Congress on the 70 eights. They were gonna, cut records for. Storage because, unlike digital media, if the technology changes, then you can’t [00:03:00] play the digital files. But if you have 70 eights, then you can just have a stylist.

If it’s into the world, you find one, you can just still make music off of it. So I read that and I was like, oh, this is like a cool idea. But that’s gonna take a lot. I mean, 78 doesn’t hold that much information,

Geo: I know who gets that job,

Nick: I love getting fooled by it. It’s always good.

j: good.

Geo: and now it’s weird because of social media. Like you might not see a post on the day that it posts, , it’s two or three days later. Yeah. And then you’re like, and then you have to go, oh, this was from April Fool’s Day.

Nick: It takes a minute before you’re like, ah.

j: So before I get into the episode a few things to clean up. The other thing that happened on April Fools was the Artemis two

Geo: And that was a, not a prank.

j: was not a prank no two back to the moon. People were headed there. So real exciting to see that.

Nick: I think Georgia has a song for this. Georgia, you wanna take off?

Geo: I do.

j: All right. [00:04:00] Maybe that’ll be a bonus

Geo: that is an April Fool’s

j: 4th.

Geo: Nobody wants to hear me see 

j: but yeah, they’re,

Nick: sing your Rocketship song all the time. I don’t

Geo: Oh. Oh, you’re right. My zoom, zoom.

j: That’s why

Nick: That’s why I said zoom into this.

j: Yeah.

Geo: Oh my God, that’s a great point. I’m gonna have to remember that for Mother Goose tomorrow,

j: But as the astronauts, they’re all making our way.

They went around the moon, took some great pictures, and they’re now, I believe, on their way back to earth as the time of this recording. So

Geo: So they didn’t actually even get out to stretch their legs or

j: No, they did not get out. This was a test run. So they did a lot of testing on like emergency procedures, taking panels off, doing a bunch of checks.

So this mission

Geo: Yeah.

j: Then three we’ll take the lander up, and then four we

Geo: And when would that be? Do you

j: I think it’s next year. I think every year we, it.

Geo: Are these astronauts planned to be going on? Any other missions Or how do they decide [00:05:00] that? Do you know?

j: I don’t know.

Geo: It just feels

Nick: In two years, are they going back

Geo: yeah, it feels like, oh

j: have different, there’s a,

Geo: I’m the first woman, but I didn’t even get to get outta the ship.

j: I think that happened even in the Apollo mission that, you know, they went up and there were people who didn’t. Go to the moon.

I did the testing that, okay, you’re done and now we have a line

Geo: Right. I mean it’s all like building blocks. It’s all important. But I was just curious if they process

j: process. That’s

Nick: I feel like I’d be a little upset that I got chose for one and not the

Geo: Right. Right.

j: I mean, I don’t know. I wouldn’t be upset.

Nick: You know, it’s like, 

Geo: I don’t know. I think,

Nick: did I mess up? Did I get fired? What do I do now?

Geo: think you always wanna do the next thing.

You know what I mean?

Nick: Yeah,

j: I mean,

Nick: you don’t want to do the next thing, Joe.

j: I do, but I mean, going into space is exciting. So unless it’s, I

Geo: just like Will.

Nick: there, I might as well lick a rock.

j: you know, that’s why

Geo: They didn’t even they didn’t even get out to lick rocks.

Nick: I [00:06:00] just wanted to go lick a rock, but I couldn’t lick a rock because I’m stuck in this stupid chip.

j: I was gonna say the you guys are talking about being screwed, but Michael Collins he actually stayed in the lunar module. While Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldering landed on a Luna surface. Oh. So he didn’t even count himself.

Nick: more

Geo: Oh my God, you gotta be kidding me.

j: And then he didn’t, I don’t think he got to go back up. So that was,

Geo: that stinks.

j: Yeah. So 

Nick: I had been like, Hey guys, can I just go outside for a minute? Like, let me just do a jump.

j: yeah. But he was in the, he was in lunar orbit, so he wasn’t even on, he didn’t actually

Geo: he didn’t actually, he

j: he hung

Geo: car warm.

j: right. He just kept the lights, the gas r you know, if you guys see aliens, let’s go.

I’m ready. So, yeah, no, that was but yeah, so that was, 

Geo: so they wouldn’t see aliens on the moon. They would be the aliens. 

j: Well, 

Geo: Do you know what I mean?

j: right. 

Nick: Was that a high thought there, Georgia?

j: [00:07:00] I know. Yeah.

Geo: It was yes. Right up there with zoom, zoom, zoom.

j: Just quickly looking it up that Michael Collins did an interview in 2019 and said he was delighted with his seat.

Despite missing the walk, and he was actually offered another chance to walk on a moon as later commander, but declined it according to NASA post.

Geo: I wonder why he declined.

Yeah,

j: Yeah, I mean, maybe you do it once and

Geo: Yeah.

j: So, back to the episode. There was a couple things you said we would touch on.

One was the, map accuracy. We talked about the sizes of continents on maps and how they’re drawn. So the Equal Earth Projection or Gail Peters projection is what they’re now, provides a more accurate representation of land sizes. And it’s actually named after James Gall and Arno Peters. They created this map in 1885, but it wasn’t published until 1974.

Geo: And I’ve, I mean, and is it widely known about like, yeah,

j: I mean, I think they’re trying to [00:08:00] get it out there.

Geo: is that something I could just Google and I can look at like that, the map that’s more

j: this in the show notes, but they, there’s a website called True Size Of, and you can actually compare. Drag

Nick: that website.

j: continents on top of other continents and really see

Geo: and then can you compare it to like the other maps,

j: is called a Mercator. And so you can use that to, yep. You can adjust and it’ll adjust for latitude and things to actually give you. The true kind of ratio between different land masses. So that was really cool.

So I’ll throw that in there. The other one, I’ll throw these article links. There was this was the idea that girls are bad at math. And so there was a few, recent large studies have shown there’s no intrinsic gender difference in children’s earliest numerical abilities. That paper was published in July, 2018 in Nature

Geo: and it really was more about the perception of being

j: Yeah. Being told that you’re bad. Right.

Geo: just think, oh, I’m a girl. [00:09:00] Like, you know,

j: and the perception from teachers that, oh, you’re gonna be bad, you’re gonna be worse at math, and so you’ll be better at this. And so you never get that Right confidence boost that you need

Geo: going in or, and also like, like going into like STEM, going into engineering.

j: The other one that I didn’t mention in the episode, but it’s is the Dunning Kruger effect. Are you guys familiar with

Geo: Is that the one you’ve talked about before? I

j: have talked.

Geo: that you know enough to then not really.

j: You have limited

Geo: you know who talks about this one a lot.

j: But yeah, you have limited knowledge and you’re confidence in a domain is greatly overestimated. Versus their expertise.

And this was identified in 1999 and it suggests that incompetence prevents people from recognizing their own mistakes, often leading to higher confidence than experts.

Geo: Oh God. I could see so many examples.

j: about this guy, he

Geo: Oh, about

j: Pittsburgh and he went in a bank. [00:10:00] Robb did, and then he went home, and then the cops and everyone showed up at his house and arrested him. He’s like, , how’d you guys find me so fast? It was like an hour later or something really quick. And they go, oh, yeah you didn’t have a mask on. So we saw your face and we, and people knew who you were and we knew where to find you.

And so they were like, no. He goes, no, I did these experiments. Where if you rub lemon juice over your face, then you become invisible to cameras. And they go, what? And he goes, yeah, I even tested it. I did a bunch of tests with the Polaroid camera, and they went, and during the investigation and searching the home, they found the Polaroids and they could see.

And the problem was that his tests, he would always after putting a lemon juice on the camera, was tilted at an angle, which didn’t show his face and assumed then that the lemon juice truly did make him invisible, the cameras. 

Geo: Don’t do that.

j: Yeah, don’t

Nick: I was not expecting that outcome

Geo: Neil deGrasse Tyson talks about that a lot. Yeah, I’ve heard him talking.

j: And then the follow up [00:11:00] on David’s point about the flat Earthers, there is a documentary and almost to the same point called Behi Behind the Curve. And in that. Like he said, there’s conferences. But in this show, this documentary, it follows people who are really setting up these very involved experiments that they feel will prove the Earth is flat.

And this one that’s in there is this Bob Knodel’s laser gyroscope experiment. And he kind of tries to test the earth rotation. And he says, oh, if the earth’s not moving, we won’t, you know, if it’s flat, you’ll see this. And if it’s round, and he actually then. It proves that the earth is indeed rotating and hence it’s round and in gen.

And generally then all these experiments, when they get the result that proves the Earth is round and kind of prove all, you know this, add to the evidence. They go, oh, our experimental design was flawed. Not that the result they got, the reason they got was [00:12:00] correct. So yeah, there’s more, there’s a whole documentary Behind the Curve and I’ll throw that.

Into the show notes.

Nick: It’s pure comedy gold. They were not trying to be ironic about it, and that’s what made it so great. The look on their

j: you’ve seen it?

Geo: Yes.

Nick: Yes,

j: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I didn’t, I

Nick: know exactly what you’re talking about.

Like, it’s one of those like late night watches where you’re like, this is just hilarious.

j: yep. Yeah, no. So that was just a few

Nick: Highly recommend.

j: From the episode I thought I would add to it. Had some listener feedback. So, one was Alex who listening and mentioned a few things and he mentioned the Mon Mothma 

Geo: mamma, 

j: the character in Andor.

Who gave a speech to the Senate and so I’ll put that clip, “but it’s of all the things at risk, the loss of an objective reality is perhaps the most dangerous. The death of truth is the ultimate victory of evil. When truth leaves us, when we let it [00:13:00] slip away, when it’s ripped from our hands, we become vulnerable.”

To the appetite of whatever monster screams the loudness. And so, and then Alex added his own, “truth is discovered or known, it doesn’t necessarily lead to accountability.” So that was his, some of

Geo: His thoughts. There you go.

j: And he also brought up Operation Paperclip and that was the program. We’re more than 1600 German scientists, engineers, and technicians were taken from the former Nazi Germany to the US government employment at the end of World War II for things like rocket development and medical technologies that they could bring over.

Nick: So was that one ever really a secret? I feel like that one was well known

j: I think it was a secret. 

Geo: I think they really tried to keep those people’s identities confidential.

j: Where they actually, I think it was people, they knew people were coming into science programs from Germany.

Geo: Germany.

j: But it wasn’t, their history and their background, they got new identities, they were [00:14:00] protected from the trials that were going on at this time, remember they were under trial for the horrendous Crimes against Humanity that were caused

Geo: And they should have and they should have been held accountable.

But because they had this skillset

j: And Russia was, the Soviet Union were recruiting these people, but it’s,

Geo: but it’s not like

j: like a

Geo: America was also doing those horrible

j: experiences. Yeah.

Right? I mean

Geo: same time, we make it sound

j: seem like,

Geo: like, oh, we’re so much above that.

Yes. You know.

Nick: stopped doing experiments. It’s just how well known they are

j: yeah. So, yeah.

Nick: I was gonna say what other experiments that are known about what that would be? 

Geo: The one I’m thinking of is the one about syphilis.

Nick: There are better known podcasts that will cover conspiracy theories better. If you’re interested, go seek those ones out. Those are always fun.

j: Yeah,

Geo: Right after you watch Beyond the Curve.

Nick: Oh yes.

j: [00:15:00] Cool. All right. Anything else you guys got before we move the new business?

Nick: No, not really. I thought that episode was a lot of fun though.

j: Yep. It was, yeah. And I will say because of the Artemis launch, we’ll be shuffling some episodes around that’s coming up. We will do the, still keep the

Splatter punk episode next with Phrique to support Slay the Lake that’s happening in Kenosha. Is that Wisconsin? Is that April

Geo: April 18th.

j: yep. So, so yeah, so

Nick: you guys going?

j: more about that. I think we

Geo: I plan on going. It’s.

j: it’s

Geo: To let you know, like, I don’t know if, I know we’ve talked about it before, but it’s the like horror writing, horror writers L-G-B-T-Q,

j: Mm-hmm. And

Geo: it just sounds, I haven’t, you’ve gone to one of the,

j: these? I did go to one.

Yep.

Geo: but I haven’t, but I’m really, I’m, yeah, I’m really excited.

j: Yes. We’re gonna go

Geo: April 18th. So go.

j: And we’ll put it in the show [00:16:00] notes 

Geo: do you think you might own on it

Nick: I don’t know, maybe.

j: the Rabbit Hole, the Research

Geo: a field 

j: Field

Nick: field trip.

j: We’ll talk about that. We just had one, but I want to get to the cool science stuff.

Geo: I’m sorry Joe.

j: I know. Is that, Nick, did you have anything?

Are you

Nick: I did, it was in the vein of space. , it was a whole thing about how the property of viruses change when they get sent to space.

And I thought that was super interesting ’cause we’re, I feel like Joe and I have been on a rather big space kick lately, especially with Artemis two going up. But yeah, they were saying that regular ones does a really good job at infecting right

j: Mm-hmm.

Nick: But when they get sent to space, something in the property makes it becomes more powerful, more potent.

That’s what it’s, and I thought that was so cool. Can you go with that, Joe?

j: of the microgravity, they had conditions there. They tested it. Yep. And some viruses, I think they were bacteriaphages.

[00:17:00] So these are viruses that particularly attack bacteria that they go, it alters their structures attachment. And I think infection rates will go up so they

Geo: it’s probably how it travels through the air really.

j: It could just be the, how they evolve once they affect their hosts, then the changes that happen in this new environment.

Right. So we think about evolution and evolution as, passing on your genetic material and inducing changes. And then those changes are influenced and selected for by the environment. If you change the environment, something I can reproduce really quickly.

I’m guessing I didn’t read this paper, but they could evolve more rapidly and adapt to their new environment faster

versus let’s

say humans, which we only have usually one child per birth cycle. So our evolution is really slow compared to, insects or viruses which, reproduce in the millions at a time. So every time they churn through. They are, [00:18:00] they’re evolving a lot quicker and they can adapt to their environment a lot faster than we could, you know, so that I’m thinking that’s what’s happening.

Nick: I thought they were saying something about wanting to see how they react after they come back down and if they can. End up helping make processes stronger.

j: Yeah, I mean, especially like bacteriaphages. So if they can, because, we have, we use antibiotics, so these are drugs that can affect the way bacteria will divide or replicate or weaken their cell walls or things like that to make them more susceptible in the die. So we use these kind of things that other like fungal species or other bacteria make.

The fend off other bacteria. But if bacteriaphages, which naturally attack bacteria, trying to use that. If you have now more virulent bacteriaphages so these won’t harm humans, they’ll just go after bacteria. Then you could maybe create a new generation of, antibiotic [00:19:00] drugs.

Using a biotic 

Nick: wild. 

j: So that would be my guess. Once again, I didn’t, I need to probably dig in this

Nick: wasn’t a super long article. I don’t think they went super deep into all of it, but I just thought it was super interesting to see that, you know, the speed of something can change or the potent

j: Potency. The virulence yeah. So, yeah no, I think that’s, like I said, I think it has to do with their evolutionary rate that they can evolve in into their new environment.

And you see that with like bacteria, like they do gain resistance to antibiotics. Their generational cycle it’s so much faster that you can then find and select for something that is, is much stronger resistance than its parents.

So, yep. Very cool. Yep.

Nick: So what did you bring?

j: Yeah, I got a couple things and one is probably that same line. A really cool arachni mimicry of a pathogenic fungus. So corti opus, we [00:20:00] all familiar with that. It’s the fungus that. We’ll control spiders, ants, things like that, and make them do its

Nick: Oh yeah,

j: like climb up to a high point and then it will fruit and then spread its spores all around.

And so what they found was this spider and I’ll put it as a show notes because I’ll probably hack up the species name Taczanowskia waska

Waca. It’s a new spider species.

Nick: that’s.

j: And it’ll,

Geo: it will 

j: it actually will mimic it being infected. So it appears to be infected with the fungus, but it’s really not infected.

And so it’s kind of this it uses this. Decoration to ward off predators. But it can also, be used in hunt hunting. So if , another animal sees it, the spider is sitting there with the fungus grown out of it, it might go, oh, it’s safe to pass, get close enough then that the spider can make a meal, and ambushed the prey. So it’s really kind of cool, this kind of [00:21:00] mimicry that it’s developed over time, once again in its environment kind of interacting with this species that it’s now used, using

Nick: that one’s so wild of a camouflage.

j: And indeed, yeah. To pretend that you’re,

Nick: oh no, I’m a diseased. It’s like

j: Yeah.

Nick: if someone’s like, oh, I wanna camouflage myself with leprosy, it’s like, oh,

Geo: Yeah. I remember, I,

Nick: don’t do that.

Geo: I remember this guy that he used to say, if he was going to be like in a sketchy neighborhood or like he’s on a bus or something and he’s nervous about it. He just starts. Talking to himself really loud and he says crazy stuff. , no one messes with you.

If you’re clearly insane. Nobody’s gonna mess with you. It’s kind of the same.

j: Yeah. I think it

Geo: think it’s kind of thing.

j: similar. No, it’s really cool. 

Nick: You could be either be someone talking to themselves or just someone

j: your phone,

Geo: Like I think you really have to,

j: yeah, you gotta be

Geo: You really gotta [00:22:00] play it up nowadays.

j: be kind of hard.

So, 

Geo: dunno, I think you could pass yourself off as being completely insane.

Nick: Who, Joe.

j: yeah, that’s not me. 

Nick: I get it.

j: So I had a, another one that was interesting and maybe we all have this feeling, it’s that it was called gain time is expanded, examining the psychological and behavioral consequences of gaining time.

And essentially the, this kind of study, it’s how if you gain an hour like so a canceled work meeting if it this unexpected windfall of spare time, it feels expanded. So it feels, so if you get, you gain like an hour from missed meeting or a canceled meeting, that time feels longer than 60 minutes.

It gives you this ex ’cause this expectation from this unique sense of opportunity. And so you actually respond differently if you get this found time or this gain time where it’s like, oh, you don’t have, we’re not doing this meeting [00:23:00] today. Okay. That, that 30 minutes or 60 minutes now feels like 90 minutes.

Like it feels much longer psychologically, even though it’s obviously to 60 minutes, but you have this kind of sense of finding this time and then doing things with it or

Nick: you already have in mind what you’re doing, so your brain is like, I already have this planned out. But now that you have to create a new task for yourself, you end up having so much more of a, oh, what am I gonna do with myself kind of moment.

j: Exactly. Yep. No, I think you have that pho. I kinda, that burst of energy like, oh man, now I can do something else. I can get caught up, or I can take a nap. I don’t know if this actually said you could take a nap, but I’m

Nick: I mean, I kind of just forget what I’m gonna do and then just get into a standstill of, well, what am I gonna do?

j: So I’ll put that link

Geo: and then I feel like it, you have that and then, oh gosh, I didn’t do anything really with that time and then I get depressed.

j: Well that’s I guess that’s a different thing.

Nick: That went down real quick.

j: right. It’s like,

Nick: I’m so sorry, [00:24:00] Georgia

I guess you could just call me. I’m not doing anything

j: yeah. Yeah, then I had one more. It was interesting to stay on the zombie theme. I was thematically thinking, I dunno, to gain time doesn’t really fit. But it was this cool paper about zombie cells that return from the dead. So the paper was selection free, whole genome transplantation, revives dead microbes.

And so they

Nick: know what? I think I was reading that article

j: did you read that one? Yeah. Yeah.

Nick: Could not understand it. And my brain was like, what?

j: And so this is this whole idea of like synthetic biology, and it’s a really fascinating and interesting field that’s been taking, picking up steam and synthetic biology is can you get life to create resources that we need? It could be medicines, it could be materials like whatever.

So can you take something that’s living and then reprogram it? To actually create the thing that you want it to make. And so this is interesting because the idea here was that you had [00:25:00] dead bacteria and then they took the genome from another bacterium, and put it into the dead one and machinery that was still happen to be in the dead one. Started to use the other genome 

Nick: this is where I got a little confused. So when it’s a dead cell, isn’t that like, isn’t, doesn’t stuff start to decompose or is

j: it you can start having breakdown

Geo: it a

j: you would have that I believe, yes. I think the, and I could, I need to, I would’ve to look at the methods.

I should have had that know you were ask me methods questions. No, you’re fine. Let’s

Geo: but

Nick: where I got confused. I don’t know

j: no,

Geo: it would have to be pretty like newly

j: They do, they talk a bit about it. They say a general solution to this problem killing recipient cells without compromising their capacity to continue to do work.

Right. So to y’all’s point, this whole genome transplant that if you, the cell’s been dead [00:26:00] too long, all the proteins and things will denature break down, like the cell’s not actively doing anything, so it won’t maintain its system. 

So they were crosslinking and stopping replication of the genome and that would essentially kill the cell if they block its genome for being used .

So it actually can’t now make new proteins and stuff . But this process, they used this cross-linking process would leave all it, its machinery transcription, translational machinery. That’s the machinery that can read DNA to RNA and RNA to protein that can do work in a cell.

We’ll leave that all intact. Then they could take the donor genome. Which they grew. And then just to explain back that the donor genome, they didn’t actually take another bacteria and then open ’em up and pull the genome out. They actually used they made what’s called a plasmid, a little circular piece of DNA.

And then that was of the other genome from the other bacterium, and make copies of that in yeast. [00:27:00] And then they could take that. So the yeast would make a bunch of copies of the bacteria plasmid, and then they have like now the donor plasmids, and then they would put that into the deactivated bacterial cells.

So essentially they were like on life support, 

Nick: controlled environment, right?

j: weren’t like dried out, crusty bacteria on a plate, like, you know.

Nick: them off.

Geo: So, wow.

j: yeah. Really, and that’s how synthetic, that’s how you would do synthetic biology and do that, or, trying to put new organelles into. A thing that doesn’t have the organelle. Think of photosynthesis and the chloroplast.

Geo: or is that also like growing certain organs out of a different organ?

You know, and I mean like a different type of cell. We talked about that a little

I like what makes it synthetic?

j: I guess you could have biological parts or devices or systems or taking existing ones and making a useful purpose out of it. So have it reimagine something that then you can use. So you’re taking engineering, [00:28:00] molecular biology, genetics, computer science, and then trying to create for all intents and per an optimized organism. Let’s say that, so something that, that suits your desires perfectly.

Geo: Mm-hmm.

j: No. It’s a very, it’s a fascinating area. Of research. I think it’s one of the new focuses of NSF funding is synthetic biology. I think it’s gonna be, one of those things we’ll hear more and more about, it’ll creep up and it’ll be like, oh, this is some synth bio, material.

I think you’ll see it more. So it was kinda like nano particles and nano kind of things. You know, 10, 15 years ago now we’ve just gotten used to it and someone says, oh, nanoparticles.

Nick: Yeah, that makes sense. I know what that is or have the general idea what it is.

j: yeah, no, so this was fascinating. Like I said, it was a fascinating paper to see it come out and to do that, but yeah, I just feel like I’m in journal club, like back in grad

Geo: I mean, didn’t we come up with a name for this segment? Oh

do [00:29:00] we have a name? Well, I think we need a name and it,

Nick: club.

Geo: and we need it to be like,

j: I don’t want journal club. I

Geo: I don’t know. It needs to be like a music or something that leads into it. So everyone knows that’s what we’re doing now.

j: Alright. Well that’s a whole different

Nick: Well, if anyone has any

j: you’re right. There we go. Cool.

Geo: Science.

Nick: kind of media have you guys been up to watching lately?

Geo: Well, we saw a movie just was that last night? No. Was that last night?

j: That was two nights ago.

Geo: Oh,

Nick: know. What movie did you guys see?

Geo: One spoon full of

Nick: Oh, that one? Yes.

j: One spoon of chocolate. By

Nick: ain’t no fool in there 

j: by. By the RZA the Abbott

Nick: we did run into,

Geo: We got a fist bump.

j: did. We got fist bumps. Yes. Yes. We were,

Nick: all round.

j: there was, yes. No, it was a very, yeah he came to be with the people and yeah, he, we were looking

Geo: were the [00:30:00] people.

j: we were looking at some DVDs and that were in the lobby and next thing he was standing be asking us how we liked the movie.

And it was yeah. I’m not sure if we answered or just drooled a little bit. I think we did.

Nick: all kind of just went.

j: Yeah. Yeah. Nick had to apologize for literally running into him. So that was and then he was like, yeah, it’s okay, buddy. What do you think of the movie? Yeah, 

Geo: It was really,

j: it was, yes,

Geo: it was, yeah. It was good.

j: It was good. Yes, it was a really good movie. It was presented by Quentin Tarantino. Quentin Tarantino wasn’t there, but it was a grind house style.

Geo: He’s produ, he’s one of the producers

j: One of the producers. But yeah, it was written and directed by RZA and you could see it was really good. And yeah, then he did a question and answer,

Nick: films

j: Right.

Lot of elements. If you’re, if you like Grindhouse, \ , Kung fu Samurai movies mm-hmm. Then you’ll see all the little elements and Easter eggs in there. It was, yeah, it was good. I like it. I, and this summer, I think it’ll be, I think it’s the pre premiering now. And I think May it comes out. [00:31:00] More wide, but yeah.

So it’ll be like kind of a nice summer movie to go see. Yeah. But it was really fun. It was at the Music Box, the Beyond Chicago Film Festival, so

Nick: Which we absolutely loved every bit of that we were there. Music box. Fantastic. If you’re in Chicago, please check it

j: I would check it out. Yeah. So

Nick: the Beyond Fest was very cool.

j: Yep. It was a lot of cool movies, a lot of good indies. It was really neat. But yeah, that was fun. Yeah, we the crew was on the road mixing it up, getting fist bumps with RZA so if you’re out there, RZA, come on the pod. Love to have you, love to

Geo: enjoyed it even.

Nick: to be less awkward.

Geo: Joe did even put

j: Pass

Geo: pass on a,

j: I know I wanted to, I wanna talk about the embryos. He had this whole embryo theory. I need to talk about science there. So come Show RZA we’ll chat a little bit. No, really nice guy. I mean, you know. Yeah, just really I love it. Talked about, he talked about the process and really doing the studying and then doing the work.

Like it’s really it took [00:32:00] him 12, 13 years to. Get this movie done. Kind of just going back, kind of learning the fundamentals, learning the basics, and yeah, it was really, it showed, yeah, really good. So

Nick: Yeah, very much enjoyed it.

j: A lot of fun there.

Nick: What else? What else have you guys watched? Anything Red

Listened to?

Geo: we’re watching the New Duffer Brothers show on Netflix.

j: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Geo: S Something Very Bad is Going to Happen

j: Yep. That’s, that is, I think that’s it.

Geo: Yeah, it’s really good.

It’s very trippy.

j: Yep.

Nick: Nice.

Geo: yeah. It’s got

j: all

Geo: right away, like in the first episode, there was

there’s

a couple jump scares. Well, for me not for Joe,

j: no, it was all right. It was,

Geo: I gotta be careful ’cause then. My cat lays on my lap, and then that can be da. That’s dangerous.

j: That is a little dangerous. That’s on Netflix. So just

Geo: yeah. Netflix.

Mm-hmm.

j: to point that out. What else? Yeah, I [00:33:00] think, oh, we’re watching For All of Mankind.

Apple Plus the new series dropped. We’re watching Daredevil. The new season,

Geo: That’s really good.

j: So the couple three episodes have dropped and all to solid, so really,

Geo: good. How about you, Nick?

Nick: Me. Well, besides the movie we all saw together tonight, I was told. Joe and Georgia that I was watching a movie, but I lied. I was watching some stuff on Apple tv,

j: Hey.

Geo: Oh, like a series.

j: What were you watching?

Nick: I watched the first episode of Monarch,

Which is the Godzilla King Kong series. Wasn’t bad better than I expected. I think I went in with low expectations though, so,

Geo: Yeah.

Nick: I’ll probably, it’s a it’s a hard show to binge, so we won’t watch two episodes in a night. But after that we watched Platonic

j: Mm-hmm.

Nick: and that [00:34:00] was the Seth Rogan show, which he’s with someone else, which now I’m drawing a blank on.

But yeah, enjoyed that too. And I’ll probably watch Plubris tonight or

Geo: say better. Or Wes is gonna be really upset with you.

j: You should check out For All of Mankind. I think you would

Geo: Severance.

j: a lot of space.

Yeah. Yeah. A little. You want something different For All of Mankind. I think especially with the space element. I think it’s really that one also throw it in there, but Yeah.

Geo: But what it’s on, like, I wanna say it’s on the fourth

j: it’s on the fourth season now. But yeah, I mean that gives

Geo: know, I’m just saying

j: is one you can binge too. You can watch ’em, you know they’re longer, but they are, you can watch a few episodes ’cause it follows historically, you see this little changes in history. If it went one way or the other. And you get caught up in that. Then they have a bunch of segments, like the the real history. 

Geo: Which is separate from the actual show. Separate

j: separate from the real show. Yeah. So real, really cool, really well done. Alt history show. So

Nick: Hell yeah. Yeah. I’ll have to check that out because I was like, oh, I know. We’ve been wanting [00:35:00] to check out a few shows, so, and you guys keep telling me to watch shows on there and. So I was like, you know what, I’m gonna get a month worth. Let’s see what it’s about.

j: Yeah, there you go. Good job.

Nick: And what, I’m almost caught up with Daredevil.

I just started Born Again, so I can work my way up to the new season

j: So

Geo: So you’re on the first season

j: you’re dedicated man, that’s,

Nick: yeah, well it’s, ’cause I don’t remember last season

Geo: right? Mm-hmm.

Nick: and I don’t recall, I didn’t recall watching. Season three, and I know I didn’t watch the Defenders, so I’m all caught up now.

Geo: Wow.

j: Cool.

Nick: Yeah. And yeah haven’t started any new games besides the ones I’ve been playing. And yeah that’s been just about it.

j: it. Yep. I didn’t talk about the books.

I read, I finished a few books. Change agent. I think I mentioned that. That’s the gene editing [00:36:00] book by

Geo: That was a recommendation by a

j: Bruce yeah. Bruce

Nick: Oh yeah.

j: Energy Directed Weapons episode. And then I had, I read All the Sinners Bleed by SA Cosby. So a little really good thriller , 

Geo: definitely race relations. Definitely.

j: Very good. And then IFI finally finished Dear Writer by Maggie Smith, so I’ve been talking about that. So I’ve been making my way through very motivational little skew towards poetry, but I think it fits for all writers and creatives.

I think it has a lot of good things about how to get through the noise, how to keep creating. Even when you may not want to or doesn’t feel like you should, but it was really good. So really motivational. So those three kind of finished up in the last week-ish or so. I don’t think I mentioned books in the last Mini, so yeah, trying to keep

Geo: I’m Reading Retreat by Kristin Ritter. Do you know who that is?

j: who that is. Well, I know who it is.

Geo: Do you?

Nick: The actress,

Geo: Yeah. Jessica [00:37:00] Jones. Yeah.

Nick: Yeah.

j: while ago. This is our second book.

Geo: is our second novel. I read her first novel too, which, oh, I’m drawing a blank.

j: Burnout or?

Geo: No, it definitely starts with a B, which that really narrows it down.

Nick: Yep. That’s 

Geo: and the first book she wrote was set in Indiana and it was really good. Bon yeah, bonfire. It was really good. And this one is also twisty. Yeah, and I probably have about 25% more to go on that, but I was real excited to see she had a new book.

Nick: Nice. Yeah, I didn’t know that she was writing books. I’ll check that out.

Geo: Yeah. Pretty cool. She makes knitting patterns too.

Nick: Are you

Geo: Am I obsessed? No. 

j: Alright. Good.

Geo: that is my favorite Marvel show. I just have to throw that out there.

j: Yeah, it’s a good one. [00:38:00] Cool.

Geo: Alright,

j: Alright.

Nick: Well was th this was another episode of the Mini

j: This is another episode of the Mini, and you have me, Joe.

Nick: Ya Got Nick

j: got Nick.

Geo: Does that mean we go down many holes?

j: you just say who you are? I didn’t ask questions.

Geo: Georgia.

Nick: was Georgia

j: Yeah, it’s like.

Nick: and. We went down some mini holes.

j: If we went down many holes, stay. Stay curious, stay safe.

Nick: Bye.

j: we love y’all. Cheers.