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Newsletter and Transcript of Rabbit Hole of Research Episode 84: E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial

Was E.T really the greatest sci-fi movie of 1982? We go down the rabbit hole of where E.T. fits in the summer that changed sci-fi.

In Episode 84 of Rabbit Hole of Research, Joe, Nick, Georgia, and Mary welcome back returning guest and boxing glove artist Chris Guzman(@theboxinggloveartist) to the Basement Studio to talk E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial. Was it really the greatest sci-fi film of the summer of ’82, or just the most sentimental?

LISTEN TO EPISODE 84

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Episode 84 Transcript

Previous RHOR Episode(s) with Chris:

Gremlins and Holiday Science

Gremlins and Holiday Science

Where to find Chris Online:

Georgia and Jim’s Touch of Noir 2027 Wall Calendar —

12 months of all-original art by Jim and Georgia; orders are open now, with mailing expected in September

Check out what the RHR crew is creating:

Joe:

Future Events to Hang with the Crew:

Podcast Cross-Appearances

Events & Conventions:

Joe:

It’s Science for Weirdos

Want to support the show? Tell your friends. Follow us on social media, Discord, share the podcast, and let us know what topics you are excited about. Leave a Comment. And for email alerts sign-up for the Substack newsletter and never miss an episode, exciting updates or the bonus images we talk about on the episodes. 

We discussed these questions on the episode and now want to Hear From You (leave a comment):

  • Was E.T. the greatest sci-fi film of the summer of 1982, or does another film on that list take the crown?
  • If a real extraterrestrial landed in your neighborhood, would your first instinct be to help it, or call the government?
  • We named a few in the episode, but do you have a favorite friendly alien story? Favorite hostile alien?

Drop your thoughts in the comments. We read them all, and your ideas often shape future episodes.

Leave a comment

Future Episodes

  • Episode 86: Disability in HorrorGuest: Grace Daly (Bram Stoker nominee)
  • Episode 88: CraziesRecorded at Reed’s Local with Melissa and Luc
  • Episode 90: Witch PleaseGuest: Bill Halliar (@skeletongue)

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Show Notes & Fun Facts 

Stuff crew said they’d put in shownotes

Movies

  • E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial (1982)
  • Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan (1982)
  • Poltergeist (1982)
  • The Thing (1982)
  • Blade Runner (1982)
  • Tron (1982)
  • The Road Warrior (1982)
  • Alien (1979)
  • Close Encounters of the Third Kind (1977)
  • Star Wars (1977)
  • Gremlins (1984)
  • Starman (1984)
  • Back to the Future (1985)
  • Ghostbusters (1984)
  • Cocoon (1985)
  • Flight of the Navigator (1986)
  • Mac and Me (1988)
  • Men in Black (1997)
  • Paul (2011)
  • Alien Nation (1988)
  • District 9 (2009)
  • Alien Romulus (2024)
  • Prey (2022)
  • V/H/S/85 (2023)
  • Under Siege (1992)
  • They Live (1988)
  • Tommy Boy (1995)
  • Mars Attacks! (1996)
  • Starship Troopers (1997)
  • The Iron Giant (1999)
  • Planet 51 (2009)
  • Battle for Terra (2007)

TV

  • Mork & Mindy
  • My Favorite Martian
  • V (miniseries)
  • Stranger Things
  • Alien Nation
  • ALF

Books

  • Roadside Picnic — Arkady & Boris Strugatsky (1972)
  • Maybe the Moon — Armistead Maupin
  • Farewell to the Master — Harry Bates (1940) 
  • Childhood’s End — Arthur C. Clarke (1953)
  • First Contact — Murray Leinster (1945) — coined the term “first contact” in fiction
  • Dear Devil — Eric Frank Russell (1950)
  • A True Story — Lucian of Samosata (2nd century AD) — arguably the first sci-fi alien story
  • The War of the Worlds — H.G. Wells (1898)
  • The Germ Growers — Robert Potter (1892) — credited as the first alien invasion novel
  • Two Planets — Kurd Lasswitz (1897)

Video Games

  • E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial (Atari, 1982)
  • Pitfall (Atari)
  • Centipede (Atari)

Fun Facts to Impress Your Friends With:

  1. The summer of 1982 may be the greatest 8-week run in sci-fi film history.Within roughly two months, theaters saw Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan (June 4), Poltergeist (June 4), E.T. (June 11), The Thing (June 25), Blade Runner (June 25), Tron (July 9), and The Road Warrior (August). Both The Thing and Blade Runner bombed on release and are now considered all-time classics. E.T. became the highest-grossing film ever made and held that title for 11 years until another little film replaced it (Jurassic Park).
  2. Wood frogs freeze solid every winter and come back to life in spring. When E.T. appears to die and revives, it’s not as far-fetched as it sounds. Real organisms like wood frogs and tardigrades (water bears) can enter cryptobiotic states — no heartbeat, no breathing — and be fully revived. Tardigrades have survived being frozen for 30 years.
  3. Atari buried 700,000 unsold E.T. game cartridges in a New Mexico landfill — and for years people thought it was an urban legend. The E.T. game was rushed out in five weeks, widely considered one of the worst games ever made, and helped trigger the video game industry crash of 1983. The burial was confirmed by excavation in 2014.
  4. The first half of E.T. was deliberately shot so adults are never seen from the waist up — a tribute to the cartoons of Tex Avery, the MGM animation director behind Daffy Duck, Droopy, and the phrase “What’s up, Doc?” It was Spielberg’s way of keeping the entire film locked in a child’s point of view.

Episode Highlights

00:00 Basement Studio Chaos — Full house, and the show immediately goes off the rails before Joe can even start.

00:40 Guest Roll Call — Returning guest and boxing glove artist Chris Guzman is back for E.T. with Reese’s Pieces and artwork.

03:02 Summer 1982 Sci-Fi Run — Joe lays out the most extraordinary 8-week run in sci-fi history: Star Trek II, Poltergeist, E.T., The Thing, Blade Runner, Tron, and The Road Warrior all within two months.

06:43 Thing Poster Tangent — Chris calls for a moment of silence for Drew Struzan, the greatest poster artist of all time.

08:15 E.T. Origins and Studio Pass — Joe traces E.T. back to Spielberg’s childhood imaginary alien friend, the unmade Night Skies project, and Columbia Pictures famously calling it “a wimpy Walt Disney movie.”

10:49 Columbia’s Missed Hits — Chris drops the bombshell: Columbia also passed on Back to the Future and Ghostbusters (then called Ghost Smashers).

13:32 Reese’s Pieces and Atari — M&M’s said no, Hershey said yes, and Atari buried 700,000 unsold cartridges in a New Mexico landfill and nearly killed an entire industry.

17:37 Hot Takes: E.T. Debate — Joe admits he wasn’t impressed as a seven-year-old, Chris nearly walks out, and the basement studio divides hard on whether E.T. holds up.

19:30 Defending E.T.’s Heart — Mary watched it again the night before and cried her eyes out; Georgia argues it’s not a kids movie, it’s a human movie.

26:10 Government Hazmat Logic — Joe makes the case that the real government response would have quarantined the entire town, taken Elliott in for studies, and put E.T. in a BSL-4 containment facility.

31:20 Product Placement List — Chris stopped counting the products in the first ten minutes: Coca-Cola, Fresca, Tab, Fritos, Raid, Sun-Maid raisins, Chutes and Ladders, Star Wars toys, and Coors…

32:26 E.T. as Jedi — Is E.T. a Force-sensitive Padawan? The Halloween scene where E.T. recognizes Yoda and says “home” may be proof E.T. was a Jedi in training.

33:39 Spielberg-Lucas Easter Eggs — The Lucas-Spielberg profit swap bet, E.T. species appearing in the Phantom Menace senate, and Rob Bottin (The Thing practical effects designer) performed in the Star Wars cantina band.

35:42 Science vs. Movie Magic — Joe points out the Handwavium needed for the bicycle-and-moon silhouette. in short the whole thing is impossible.

37:33 Psychic Link Plot Holes — If E.T. and Elliott are psychically linked, why does Elliott lose track of him?

38:37 Candy, Plants, and Biology — Joe points out that the dying flower E.T. revives is a reproductive organ.

40:22 Drew Barrymore’s Heart — Chris reveals that Drew Barrymore’s “I don’t like his feet” reaction was completely unscripted.

42:22 80s PSAs and Framing — The crew riffs on “Do you know where your children are?” and the connection to Tex Avery cartoons.

44:32 Gremlins Origin Story — Chris connects E.T to Gremlins as an original script written about what would happen if E.T.’s species came back and weren’t so cuddly.

46:02 Friendly Alien History — Joe lists aliens through history.

54:23 Alien Stories and Metaphors — Mary recommends Alien Romulus, and Joe brings up Roadside Picnic as the ultimate alien-artifacts-without-contact story.

57:34 Peter Pan Influence — Mary makes the case that E.T. has threads of Peter Pan.

01:01:09 E.T. Autopsy Science Talk — The crew discusses whether E.T.’s “death” is similar to tardigrades and wood frogs in biological stasis.

01:03:52 80s Alien Movie Roll Call — Killer Klowns from Outer Space, Cocoon, Flight of the Navigator, and Mac and Me.

01:06:38 Dark Turns and Autopsies — Nick points out that the scientists could have started cutting the moment E.T. appeared to die.

01:09:21 E.T. Suit Performers — Georgia’s points out that Armistead Maupin’s novel Maybe the Moon was written in Tamara’s honor.

01:14:32 Corey Feldman Cut — Chris reveals Corey Feldman was originally cast as Elliott’s best friend, cut, but Spielberg put him into Gremlins instead.

01:15:11 Fannish Halloween Meltdown — Chris tells the story of his tantrum on the floor over a E.T. costume.

01:18:19 Merchandising and Toy Wars — Joe traces the merchandising revolution of movie toys.

01:21:32 Stranger Things Influence — Georgia connects Stranger Things’ bike rides and creature design back to E.T. and Joe points out that the Demogorgon looks like something out of The Thing.

01:22:27 Alien-Predator Cage Match — E.T. versus a xenomorph. Predator versus E.T. and what if E.T. encountered The Thing? Who Goes There?

01:26:56 Why E.T. Still Works — Chris: “It’s a feel-good movie and one of the first summer blockbusters I ever experienced.” 

01:35:53 Wrap Up and Where to Find Chris — Instagram: @theboxinggloveartist and @stupidgoodgrill, Facebook: Chris Guzman. Go buy some boxing gloves.

“Stay curious, stay safe… Love Y’all!”

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Transcript

00:00:00 joe: Hey, welcome back to the Rabbit Hole of Research. Down here in the basement studio, we are all crewed up

[00:00:10] georgia: Full

[00:00:10] nick: house. Everyone in

[00:00:12] georgia: even… There’s not even room to move. There’s

[00:00:15] joe: not even room to move There is not room to move.

[00:00:17] Mary: I don’t

[00:00:17] joe: I don’t know. Yeah.

[00:00:18] nick: Georgia, I don’t know what you’re doing over there. Why can’t you

move?

[00:00:20] joe: Yeah,

it’s

[00:00:21] nick: it’s like,

uh- There is plenty of

[00:00:22] georgia: room only.

[00:00:24] joe: Well, yeah, standing room only.

We got a live studio audience. I don’t know.

[00:00:30] Mary: have Phoebe Cates.

[00:00:31] joe: Yeah. Well, hold on.

[00:00:32] Mary: Okay, wait. Okay. Now-

[00:00:33] joe: pre-show conversation. Let’s, uh-

[00:00:35] nick: wait. Sorry,

[00:00:36] Chris_G: If that’s the intro, this is gonna be something.

[00:00:39] Mary: this

[00:00:39] georgia: gonna do something. Well,

[00:00:39] Mary: be something. Well,

[00:00:40] joe: you’ve got me,

Joe.

[00:00:42] nick: I got Nick.

[00:00:43] georgia: You got Nick.

Georgia.

That’s-

[00:00:46] nick: Jesus. We

[00:00:46] Mary: you got Mary. We’ve

[00:00:47] joe: got Mary, and we have

A return- Oh, Mary’s here, you guys

yes, returning. Came back for a little more punishment.

[00:00:53] georgia: punishment.

He

[00:00:54] nick: He loved it.

[00:00:55] Chris_G: had such a great time last time y- you put it out there for me, and I said [00:01:00] absolutely.

[00:01:00] joe: You gonna name yourself, or are you just gonna… people have to go and listen through

to all the episodes?

[00:01:04] Chris_G: call in and guess.

[00:01:06] nick: Oh, yeah, we do have the

new phone line, yep.

[00:01:08] joe: That’s right. Yeah.

555-5555. Yeah.

[00:01:09] Mary: 555-5555.

[00:01:12] Chris_G: Yeah.

Wait, w- I gotta write that

[00:01:13] georgia: down.

[00:01:14] Chris_G: That’s a

[00:01:15] joe: That’s a good ’80s one. But anyway, we got the boxing glove artist, Chris Guzman himself here.

[00:01:21] Chris_G: How is everyone?

[00:01:22] Mary: Woo-hoo … on

[00:01:23] georgia: Yay. Woo … in our Gremlin episode.

[00:01:24] nick: That was-

[00:01:25] Chris_G: that was a quality

[00:01:27] joe: movie.

[00:01:27] Chris_G: evening.

[00:01:28] nick: Yeah.

[00:01:28] joe: And he came back. And well, he- he gave himself his own- invite back, ’cause he was like

[00:01:36] nick: we we’re gonna talk about E.T.

[00:01:38] joe: And then it was like, oh, that’s a great idea. And then now here he is and we’re gonna be talking about E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial,

[00:01:45] Chris_G: There’s gonna be a l- there’s gonna be a little bit of Gremlin talk, too.

[00:01:48] joe: probably will be, yes. There has to be, yes. No

I have a, I have things queued up, so yes.

They’re clawed hand in

clawed hand. They, indeed they are. And there it is. We’re already-

[00:01:57] georgia: finger in strange finger.

[00:01:58] Mary: Oh,

[00:01:59] joe: okay. [00:02:00] Well, let’s, phew. Yep.

[00:02:02] Mary: Man, we went off the rails fast.

[00:02:04] joe: just Super fast.

[00:02:05] nick: in strange finger. Oh, okay. Let’s, yep. Man, we went off the rails. Well, I’ll get us down from that. Didn’t take long for this episode.

[00:02:06] joe: was the ’80s. This is still PG-13. I mean, according to the ’80s, this is all-

you know.

[00:02:12] Mary: was PG-13. That was one of the ’80s. It was you know-

[00:02:12] georgia: Oh, boy.

[00:02:14] joe: Well, great. This episode I, I don’t have, I’m not gonna do my- Oh,

[00:02:18] nick: no monologue?

No monologue

[00:02:19] joe: in this one.

[00:02:20] nick: Not gonna be talking about how we’re talk- you know, talking to

aliens.

[00:02:24] joe: I

just gotta

get, I’ma go right into it.

You’re throwing me, man.

I’ma

go

[00:02:27] Chris_G: I’ve been

[00:02:28] georgia: I’ve been

studying.

[00:02:28] joe: That’s

right.

Yeah.

[00:02:29] Chris_G: what he does.

[00:02:30] joe: what I like doing, throwing out. Ah. But I think this one here, I just wanna, I wanna get in. I got a few lists. I do have lists. I’m list heavy in this episode, so I feel like I need to balance that out, and I’ma come right

[00:02:40] georgia: out. And Mary’s happy you’re not doing

[00:02:42] nick: doing a

[00:02:43] joe: Sheesh.

[00:02:44] georgia: I m- What

[00:02:45] joe: of, what do you guys

talk

[00:02:46] Chris_G: looks overjoyed.

[00:02:47] joe: I know. It’s like-

[00:02:49] georgia: like- I’m just teasing … if we

[00:02:50] joe: had

room

to move, she would shear her arms

[00:02:53] georgia: in this. But Mary s- she does give you a hard time about your monologues. But,

[00:02:56] joe: right. But,

[00:02:56] Mary: Yeah. You know. Yeah,

[00:02:57] georgia: w-

[00:02:58] joe: was gonna say that I wanna start out [00:03:00] with the list and then we can go back, we can loop back.

But I think the summer of ’82

[00:03:04] Mary: ’82

[00:03:05] georgia: is

[00:03:05] joe: probably one of the most, you know, extraordinary eight to 10-week runs in sci-fi film history that’s just, I’m gonna lay that out there. I’m gonna give the list of what came out, and then we can move and get back to E.T., ’cause I think this is gonna set up a whole lot of conversation here.

But you start the summer off with Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, which may have been one of the best Star Trek movies in the

series.

[00:03:28] nick: this is gonna sound naive, but I didn’t know that movie was in theaters.

[00:03:33] Mary: It just,

[00:03:34] joe: they didn’t go straight to video back

then.

[00:03:37] nick: many. What are you talking about?

[00:03:38] Mary: They did, yeah.

[00:03:39] joe: What are you talking about?

They did, yeah. This is ’82.

No way.

[00:03:40] nick: movies

went straight to-

[00:03:41] joe: already start out with- I’m

[00:03:41] Mary: it’s like

Maybe you thought it was a TV movie. I thought it was a

[00:03:42] nick: VHS … V-

[00:03:43] Mary: Okay. All right. I’m sorry.

[00:03:45] Chris_G: List of one? We’re already in a ditch? Nick, come on,

[00:03:49] joe: ditch? We, out the gate, we are, we’re in controversy

[00:03:52] nick: right now. This is gonna be a whole controversial

episode. All

right. All right. I

[00:03:56] Mary: until 3:00 AM.

[00:03:57] joe: So, and that

was the, that was- one of the

first

feature [00:04:00] films

to use an entirely computer-generated sequence, the Genesis effect. That was, if people remember that movie.

I’m not sure if everyone

[00:04:06] georgia: obviously Nick doesn’t.

I’ve seen it.

[00:04:08] joe: I’ve

[00:04:08] nick: I’ve seen it, I just didn’t know that it was in theaters. No. It was a little before my time, guys. I’m

so sorry.

[00:04:15] joe: June 4th, at the same, it was marquee with Star Trek II, was Poltergeist. And interesting fact that tethers into all this is Spielberg wrote it.

I didn’t know that until I started doing research. And some people consider it the evil twin of E.T. And so we’ll probably… I see Chris shaking his head, so we’ll get him there. June 11th, the next week, we had E.T. come out. Immediately the biggest movie ever made. It held that title for 11 years until another Spielberg movie came out called Jurassic Park in ’93.

June 25th, my homie John Carpenter came out with The Thing.

Yes.

It came out the same day as Blade Runner. It bombed on release. Mm-hmm. But now it’s considered one of the greatest horror movies ever made. [00:05:00] Blade Runner, which came out, Ridley Scott, also an OG, bombed

Bombed on release

now considered one of the greatest sci-fi movies ever made.

[00:05:09] nick: Wait, both of them bombed?

[00:05:11] joe: of them bombed. Yeah.

[00:05:12] Mary: Thing bombed,

[00:05:12] joe: did.

[00:05:13] nick: I’m sorry, Chris, I didn’t mean to offend you with that one too. I’m

[00:05:17] Chris_G: I’m not of- I’m not offended.

I felt sorry for a moment. No. We’re fine.

[00:05:21] nick: fine.

[00:05:22] joe: July 9th

you know, Tron

[00:05:24] georgia: Oh

[00:05:24] joe: out, so Nick’s, one of Nick’s favorite movies. It was the first major studio film that extensively used CGI. August, The Road Warrior to cap up the summer. So one of the g-

[00:05:34] Mary: My goodness

[00:05:35] joe: run of

movies

[00:05:36] georgia: figured out when you asked what, where, when do you wanna time travel to 1982. Just want- Summer 1982 … to go right now in

[00:05:46] joe: with

a pocket full of old school coinage. I don’t know. Can’t take dollars, fag. It’s

like I think

the

[00:05:51] Chris_G: the way it works out is that children that were seven years old at the time

[00:05:56] joe: are just naturally Yeah

[00:05:57] Chris_G: gifted individuals. Oh, yeah. ‘Cause you’d’ve had to have been [00:06:00] born in 1975

babies born in 1975 had, have a distinct advantage.

I think we figured that out

[00:06:06] georgia: I

[00:06:07] joe: correct. I would whole-heartedly agree with that.

[00:06:09] georgia: Yeah.

[00:06:10] Chris_G: Yeah. You would?

[00:06:11] joe: I would, indeed.

greatest year to be born. What

[00:06:15] nick: What year were you guys born again? I’m sorry.

[00:06:17] Chris_G: I don’t remember. I was way too young. I was way too young.

[00:06:20] georgia: was

[00:06:20] joe: young.

[00:06:21] Chris_G: No. But

[00:06:21] nick: well,

[00:06:22] joe: but yeah. I like the, I, I that’s where I’ma start it all at. Put

[00:06:26] georgia: Put it in context.

[00:06:27] joe: put it

in context, and we can now talk a little bit about E.T.,

and then I’ma- You couldn’t wait

[00:06:33] georgia: to mention The Thing.

[00:06:34] joe: Like

[00:06:34] georgia: You have

[00:06:36] Mary: mention The Thing in every episode, and rightly, I think.

[00:06:39] joe: We do. Yes. That’s right. Yeah. That’s right.

[00:06:40] nick: Yeah. I mean, it is in our contracts.

[00:06:42] joe: that’s right. Yes.

that’s right. John Carpenter,

[00:06:44] Chris_G: Moment of silence for Drew Struzan, who did the poster for The Thing. Oh. And lots of other posters. He’s the greatest poster artist of all time,

[00:06:54] nick: Yeah, he passed away-

[00:06:55] joe: That’s right. Yeah. Last year.

[00:06:57] Mary: Oh, recently. Yep, yep. Oh. Yeah, it was. Yep,

[00:07:00] in Wisco. Yeah. RIP.

[00:07:00] joe: right. And that, and The Thing, it was a rush job. I don’t think that was… It wasn’t, it was like a week or so like you gotta get this done and it

[00:07:09] Chris_G: weren’t gonna put the image of The Thing-

[00:07:11] joe: That’s right. Well, there

is no… What is the-

[00:07:12] nick: is

[00:07:13] Chris_G: What

would the image be?

[00:07:14] joe: right. And I think that was the problem and some of the- you

[00:07:17] georgia: you might-

politics … you might ask, how do we know all these facts about the Thing?

[00:07:22] Chris_G: might ask.

[00:07:22] joe: these facts about The Thing? You might ask. Yeah.

I just, I,

[00:07:24] Chris_G: I just watched the-

[00:07:26] georgia: Joe might tell us … creator

[00:07:28] joe: CV extended The Thing three hour and a

half- The Thing documentary ex- Thing expanded Kickstarted you know, so yeah, my name’s in the credits if you go check it out.

It was a, it, yeah, it’s a watch.

[00:07:38] nick: Oh, look at that. You’re in the, you have credits now? No. Do we have an IMDb page for you yet? I

[00:07:43] Chris_G: Yeah.

He was just a supporter, but- I

was

[00:07:46] joe: supporter, but- I was a

[00:07:46] georgia: but the day it came it was, “Oh, we must Yes, we did. a three-hour documentary on The Thing.

[00:07:52] Chris_G: The Thing. Well, I was unaware we had celebrities in the house tonight,

[00:07:55] joe: night. Yeah. Well, the Rabbit Hole of Research is, has a page.

Oh, we do?

We do, [00:08:00] yeah. Oh. People in on it.

[00:08:01] nick: I didn’t know this. Oh, now I gotta look myself up.

Hold on. I gotta get

my star

[00:08:05] joe: I didn’t say your name was in it,

but- …I just said

Rabbit Hole of

[00:08:08] Chris_G: didn’t say Rabbit Hole- Put the phone back down.

[00:08:10] joe: Yeah.

I’m gonna- He’s gonna fill it in. He’s gonna be like,

“Hey, you

know it.”

Yeah.

[00:08:13] Mary: Sorry.

[00:08:14] nick: All right.

[00:08:14] georgia: All right.

[00:08:15] joe: No.

so E.T. Spielberg- concept came from an imaginary alien friend he invented after his parents divorced in the ’60s, so some mirroring there.

A lot of people, and even himself, it’s semi-autobiographical, the film of E.T. It was two unmade projects that kind of was a synthesis of E.T.: Growing Up, which was an autobiographical shelf project due to production problems on 1941

Spielberg’s World War

II comedy in ’79, and Night Skies, the unproduced sci-fi horror film kind of the darker sequel to Close Encounters Of the Third Kind. [00:09:00] So it was, like, an aggressive alien terrorizing a farmhouse with one friendly alien named Buddee or Buddy. It depends on the spelling in the script. But yeah, so, so that was where it came from, like the ideation. Columbia Pictures originally passed on E.T. After developing it for about 10 months and investing a million in there.

The studio chief Frank Price, said it was a wimpy Walt Disney movie, opting to focus on their adult-oriented film, Star Man, 1984. Carpenter, who directed that,

[00:09:34] Chris_G: A,

[00:09:34] Mary: very good movie … it

[00:09:35] joe: a g- it was a good movie. Yeah. Yep, that’s right. All

[00:09:37] georgia: All right, Joe. And the- This kinda sounds like a monologue.

[00:09:40] Chris_G: Maybe

[00:09:41] joe: sounds like a monologue.

Maybe it is. See, I just…

I said, “List. Lists turn into monologues.” No

I just got couple- a couple more

[00:09:46] nick: all written down.

[00:09:47] joe: Columbia retained 5% of net profits in that deal with Universal, who did E.T., and that 5% made Columbia more money that year than any of their other films,

[00:09:57] georgia: Just 5%?

[00:09:58] joe: That’s 5% of E.T [00:10:00] Mm-hmm. The

film’s working

title was A Boy’s Life. It was used to hide the plot.

And

Gremlins, and then I don’t know, Chris, if you had this one, the 1994 horror film, comedy, Christmas comedy, Gremlins- Check out our episode on that. The, the Kingston Falls movie theater marquee had two movies on it: A Boy’s Life, which was the alternate title for E.T.,

and Watch the Skies, which was the alternate title for Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Okay, I’m done.

So there

[00:10:32] georgia: go. That was a lot

you just threw in there.

[00:10:35] nick: pretty

sure Chris didn’t know that. Don’t worry.

[00:10:37] Chris_G: to, I’m trying to

[00:10:37] nick: Chris-

[00:10:38] Chris_G: of them. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I

think- That was half my material right there.

So, I’ll be seeing y’all.

[00:10:43] Mary: I know. I’m

[00:10:44] joe: this all out

because it’s gonna get pretty controversial real fast, so I’m just gonna, I’m just trying to-

[00:10:49] nick: Oh, did Georgia tell you my hot takes already?

[00:10:51] joe: did You tell- tell already- You’re t- hear my hot

takes so- As long as we’re slamming Columbia. Can I throw [00:11:00] in some nuggets here?

like to say the rabbit hole of research didn’t slam Columbia, but Not yet.

[00:11:07] Chris_G: The human beings in this room- definitely are giggling at their expense. And I’m one of them, and I’m loud and proud. Yeah, Columbia passed on E.T.

[00:11:16] joe: Mm-hmm

[00:11:17] Chris_G: ‘Cause Starman was more important apparently.

[00:11:19] georgia: never heard of.

[00:11:20] Chris_G: well, yeah.

They also passed on Back To The Future.

[00:11:23] joe: Yeah. Wow.

[00:11:24] Chris_G: They did not think… Columbia had it on a silver platter and said, Yeah … I’m not quo- I’m not quoting anyone, ’cause there’s no actual quote, but the overall feel was that they did not think that a time travel movie would would equal dollars at the box office.

Right,

[00:11:39] joe: Right. Wow. Yeah.

[00:11:41] Chris_G: yeah … strike

[00:11:42] joe: two.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:44] Chris_G: Then they get this, this really awesome script called Ghost Smashers.

[00:11:50] joe: Ooh, I wonder

what that could become.

[00:11:51] nick: a

[00:11:51] Mary: that

[00:11:52] Chris_G: become. It was a working title. It got tweaked a little bit towards the end, but yeah, Ghost Smashers. They said it was gonna be way too expensive.

And- they

[00:11:59] georgia: that down, too?[00:12:00]

[00:12:00] Chris_G: They turned down three of the biggest movies of that decade-

[00:12:05] joe: Wow.

[00:12:06] Chris_G: for business reasons. …

[00:12:07] georgia: IPs. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:12:10] joe: Yep. Yeah.

[00:12:11] Chris_G: Weak sauce. Side order of weak sauce. Wow.

[00:12:13] joe: But they did smartly keep 5% of th- that E.T. money, so that was a

they weren’t that, It was

like how do we hedge

our bets here?”

[00:12:21] Chris_G: should tell you something, that their biggest money maker- … was them not even doing it.

[00:12:26] joe: That’s right, yeah. So sometimes that’s the best money, right? Where you just sit

back

[00:12:29] georgia: sit back

[00:12:30] Mary: and Collect those residuals.

[00:12:32] joe: That’s

right, yeah.

[00:12:32] georgia: then you start calculating this is 5%. Now, let’s see.

[00:12:36] joe: true.

[00:12:36] georgia: what would have

[00:12:37] joe: Yeah. What’s Columbia doing these days?

[00:12:39] Chris_G: Three Men And An Old Lady. I don’t know what they’re doing anymore.

[00:12:43] nick: I mean, what? Didn’t they put out the Spider-Verse films

[00:12:47] joe: No.

Isn’t that, um-

[00:12:49] nick: Sony Columbia

[00:12:49] joe: Isn’t that Sony? Columbia. Sony bought Columbia then. Yeah, so, right, so they’re not their own thing anymore.

[00:12:55] nick: that I’m just

[00:12:55] joe: Okay. Oh, well, I’m just saying.

They probably would’ve bought Sony if they made these

[00:12:59] georgia: [00:13:00] So you’re gonna make it controversial, huh, Joe?

[00:13:03] joe: Yeah I mean, I don’t…

[00:13:04] Chris_G: I…

[00:13:05] joe: Chris, do you got things to say about E.T.?

I

[00:13:08] Chris_G: I have things- …

on an ET

[00:13:10] nick: about ET?

[00:13:10] Mary: podcast to plug-

[00:13:10] joe: on

the E.T. Podcast.

Yeah, please go.

I mean, you’re the guest, so I

talked a lot. I’m

getting r- i- people said I, you know, I talk too much, and so

[00:13:17] Chris_G: No one thinks that.

[00:13:18] joe: No, truly. Truly no one thinks

don’t. Well, does.

[00:13:21] Chris_G: Well, I can’t speak for

[00:13:22] joe: Let’s ask our studio audience. What do you guys think? No.

[00:13:24] Mary: So what’s another fact about E.T. that you would like us to know?

[00:13:28] Chris_G: Oh, sweet Jesus.

[00:13:29] joe: You’re-

[00:13:29] georgia: or an opinion.

[00:13:31] joe: Yes, or opinion. I

mean,

[00:13:32] Chris_G: i- if we’re gonna talk about roads not traveled,

[00:13:35] Mary: Mm-hmm

[00:13:35] Chris_G: they offered-

[00:13:38] joe: That’s right … M and Ms You’re right.

[00:13:40] Chris_G: to be the candy of choice for a pretty-

[00:13:44] joe: Yeah. And M and said that little-

it was too scary. They thought E.T. was just too scary.

[00:13:49] nick: those of you not with us here in the studio, Chris was holding up a box of

[00:13:54] Chris_G: See?

Have little cameras in my face. I thought we were on

[00:13:57] nick: know what I’m right a joke. He [00:14:00] also brought us packs of Reese’s Pieces, as

[00:14:02] joe: well Yeah. Yeah, yeah, And some artwork.

That’s

right

[00:14:05] Chris_G: road not traveled.

[00:14:06] joe: Yeah.

[00:14:07] Chris_G: What kind– I mean, M&M’s def- and Mars is not hurting.

[00:14:12] joe: No. They, they did all

[00:14:13] Chris_G: of the boost they could have gotten in the summer of ’82 at every movie theater.

[00:14:17] georgia: But at the same time, look at Reese’s Pieces, what that did for them.

[00:14:21] Mary: Right.

[00:14:21] joe: yeah.

[00:14:21] Chris_G: they’re

hanging their hat on that E.T. money. Yeah.

[00:14:23] joe: are. Yep. Atari also. I mean, where

[00:14:26] nick: Oh, geez

Louise.

[00:14:28] Chris_G: whiz.

[00:14:29] joe: That led to

the, what the video game collapse in

[00:14:32] nick: almost killed the whole industry …

[00:14:34] joe: And you know, they … Atari buried-

[00:14:36] georgia: back and explain this,

[00:14:38] Chris_G: and explain this? This is one of the greatest stories

in Atari

[00:14:41] Mary: you…

[00:14:41] Chris_G: Will you?

Oh.

[00:14:42] Mary: Yeah,

[00:14:42] joe: yeah. Well,

[00:14:43] Chris_G: first of all, they made this movie… Excuse me. They made this video game in, like, it looks like it was made in an afternoon. It,

[00:14:50] joe: Yes,

[00:14:50] Mary: It,

[00:14:50] Chris_G: It was- Atari did? It’s- I have it on emulator. I was

[00:14:52] georgia: Atari did?

[00:14:52] joe: think I have it on emulator. I was gonna try to have it running for us- It- … but it didn’t work

out. But

[00:14:57] Chris_G: people that, that will die on the hill [00:15:00] of the E.T. video game is the worst video game of all time. I purposely, I personally don’t feel that way, but it is, it’s

[00:15:06] joe: in the conversation. It’s pretty.

[00:15:07] nick: It’s got some contenders against

it, yeah.

[00:15:09] joe: fun.

I remember, I will say

my neighbors, Al and Willie, they had it, and I r- and my parents weren’t gonna get me a video game. I didn’t get one till like Nintendo, so that was a little

There was a little gate. But they had E.T. And I would just go over. I mean, compared to Pitfall and Centipede, i- you know, it

wasn’t

The

graphics, it wasn’t like, “Oh man, its graphics

is what drug it down.” it was just kind of, it was

a

[00:15:35] Chris_G: poor- There were graphics?

[00:15:36] Mary: game,

[00:15:37] joe: Yeah.

[00:15:37] Chris_G: There were graphics on yours, okay.

[00:15:39] joe: yeah. So it was just, it was a poorly conceived, but I remember excited about going and play it, and I, and you know. We’ll get in-

[00:15:45] Chris_G: I thought it w- it

[00:15:46] joe: Drop my hot hot take, but go

ahead.

[00:15:48] Chris_G: It was fun-ish. Yeah. It

[00:15:50] joe: was Yeah, yeah. it was, Yeah … you know- Right … yeah …it, had- But it got a rise in

[00:15:51] Chris_G: you know- For

[00:15:52] nick: but for the, price of it man

[00:15:54] Chris_G: Rotation of m- of all my Atari games, yeah, at the time.

But apparently the, the story goes, the [00:16:00] lore, is that they made way too many. They made, like, thousands of percent more than they needed. They thought there was gonna be this giant rush because the movie was so hot. Mm-hmm. And stores started sending them back ’cause they had so much unsold stock of it.

Yeah. They had

[00:16:17] joe: Yep

[00:16:18] Chris_G: countless hundreds of thousands of copies of this video

[00:16:21] nick: As well as people returning it, yes?

[00:16:22] georgia: game.

now, would it be worth want-

[00:16:24] nick: No.

[00:16:25] joe: I

mean- Is it

still-

Well, so-

[00:16:26] Chris_G: If it’s

sealed

[00:16:28] joe: what happened was Atari buried 700,000 unsold cartridges-

[00:16:34] georgia: actually buried

[00:16:35] joe: In

a

New Mexico landfill. And it was u- rumored. Like, people… It was, like, c- a very hot, controversial topic. Did they do it? Didn’t they do it?

And

some people said it was, like, millions, but it’s come down to, like, about, you know, 700, which still is a lot.

[00:16:49] nick: ’cause what? A couple years back, they- They excavated- Yeah

[00:16:51] Chris_G: in 2020- You did see that documentary.

Yeah. That was so

[00:16:55] joe: Yeah, that’s right.

Yep, yep. So, but yeah, no, that was that was… And we were talking about some facts [00:17:00] on the Reese’s Pieces and talking about product placement.

Their sales jumped over 65% within two weeks of the movie release, so that was the-

[00:17:07] Chris_G: They had nowhere to go but

[00:17:08] joe: up. Yeah, yep. So that was the big one. Oh, huge.

[00:17:12] Chris_G: Huge. I l- I love that. I love that M&M’s… How many people didn’t see what this movie could’ve been? Joe.

[00:17:20] joe: No. Yep.

[00:17:21] Chris_G: Okay. How many people underestimated this movie? Saw the… No, figured it out? I mean, these are industry giants that are like, “Eh, I’m not gonna go with that. No.” I think M and Ms

I mean, like you said, Eminem said that this is gonna be too scary of a movie, yet Columbia said it’s gonna be too namby-pamby of a movie.

[00:17:37] joe: All right. So I

really can’t, I can’t hold my guns anymore.

[00:17:40] Chris_G: He’s

[00:17:40] georgia: gonna say something that’s gonna piss you off. I, just you’re

[00:17:43] Chris_G: lucky I even came back for this

one.

Because,

[00:17:46] joe: this

[00:17:46] nick: movie.

[00:17:47] Chris_G: ’cause we know collectively what you actually thought of this back in ’82.

[00:17:52] joe: ’82. Y- you’re right. I went and saw The Thing. I begged my dad to take me to it as a seven-year-old. I

loved …it.

Yeah. I did see E.T., and I must admit [00:18:00] I wasn’t impressed.

As a seven-year-old, I just recently watched it as a much older adult,

[00:18:06] Chris_G: Push that waah,

[00:18:07] Mary: button.

[00:18:07] georgia: And it

[00:18:09] joe: a

good mo- I think it was a family-friendly, simple plot movie, but I didn’t think, in terms of a movie,

there was nothing great about it.

[00:18:20] georgia: I agree. Oof.

[00:18:20] joe: Mm-hmm. I-

[00:18:21] Chris_G: don’t think it …was

[00:18:21] joe: it was some great

[00:18:22] georgia: Oh my gosh. Like, it’s still great.

[00:18:24] nick: at least- It’s a kids movie.

Like- You

[00:18:26] joe: this up

with the ’82 movies- that

were

[00:18:29] Chris_G: all

[00:18:30] georgia: all

[00:18:30] joe: innovative

in

[00:18:31] Chris_G: I think Chris feels like-

[00:18:32] joe: E.T. was the only one on

that list that wasn’t very innovative.

[00:18:36] Chris_G: It was

[00:18:37] georgia: was innovative.

What in the heck are you talking about? Well,

[00:18:41] joe: So

that’s where

[00:18:41] nick: has

left the studio. Oh, geez.

He’s

breaking things. Chris,

stop.

[00:18:46] georgia: It

[00:18:47] joe: a

good

[00:18:47] Chris_G: He’s, He’s

[00:18:47] nick: a Halloween

costume. I, I have to disagree. And sh-

[00:18:48] Mary: his E.T. mask-

[00:18:49] Chris_G: has

[00:18:49] Mary: He has an E.T. Hal- like a Halloween mask on.

[00:18:52] georgia: have

to

disagree. I disagree.

[00:18:54] joe: his ET mask- What? … he had like a Halloween mask and then she- I have to disagree. I disagree. Oh, that’s

fine. I’m

sure- I

[00:18:56] georgia: loved

[00:18:56] joe: how many billions

of dollars disagree with me, but

[00:18:58] georgia: I

[00:18:59] joe: I didn’t. think it [00:19:00] was,

[00:19:00] georgia: at the time, and I might’ve been a little ol- older than seven but I loved it at the time, and I still love it. I just, I don’t… How can you-

[00:19:09] nick: But is it because you like children’s media?

[00:19:12] georgia: Like No.

[00:19:14] nick: are you

a

child? Joe gets the

[00:19:16] Chris_G: children- Are

[00:19:16] joe: you a children’s

librarian by any chance?

[00:19:18] Chris_G: any chance? No. I’ve- Some feelings are gonna get hurt tonight, folks.

[00:19:21] joe: All right. All right.

[00:19:21] Mary: Oh, yeah.

[00:19:22] Chris_G: Starting with mine.

[00:19:23] georgia: starting with mine.

[00:19:24] nick: Here

it comes. I,

[00:19:26] georgia: I

know. I, I- Okay, Mary, where

[00:19:28] Chris_G: Please, Mary,

save

[00:19:29] joe: anything yet,

[00:19:29] georgia: Yes.

[00:19:30] Mary: I wanna defend E.T. because I-

[00:19:33] joe: it …I

[00:19:33] Mary: if defend it, well, from Joe who’s being so mean.

[00:19:37] joe: being so mean.

[00:19:38] Mary: I watched the vlast…

We went to go see it, it was, you know… Well, I lived in rural Virginia, so going to the movie theater was an event. , you had to get dressed up and… I mean, not like in your Sunday best or anything, but you know, you…

It

was-

[00:19:52] georgia: was- It was an event

[00:19:53] Chris_G: it

[00:19:53] joe: was,

you

had to…

[00:19:54] Mary: Yeah, exactly. You had to make an effort to get to the movie theater. And oh, my [00:20:00] gosh, just loved it so much. And I just thought, “You know what? The heck.” I haven’t actually seen it since I was 10, right, when I first saw it in the

[00:20:08] joe: Oh, maybe you should. And

[00:20:10] Mary: I did. I saw it yesterday, and I loved it.

I just I, yeah, no notes. It was j- it was just great. Yeah there’s holes in it- Yeah … but that’s okay. I don’t care.

[00:20:20] georgia: And I didn’t feel like it was just a kids movie. No.

[00:20:23] Mary: No, not at

[00:20:23] georgia: it was like a human movie. Yeah. Which is funny ’cause it’s about a human and an alien.

[00:20:28] Mary: It’s very sentimental, yeah. And that was

[00:20:31] joe: point of it, right? And, Yeah

explore humanity through this alien that came-

Well-

[00:20:36] nick: Elliot right away starts teaching it the worst things.

Like he teaches him about war. He goes ahead and shows him the f- food chain. He goes, “This is a fish. He’s mine, but the shark eats the fish, and no one will eat the shark ’cause he’s on top.”

[00:20:54] Mary: Well,

[00:20:54] joe: that’s

[00:20:55] georgia: true.

[00:20:55] nick: Yes, but he’s teaching this to an alien

who

would essentially [00:21:00] be on top of the food chain considering they’ve made it here. And guess what? They can invade the whole planet because they’ve already been here.

[00:21:07] Mary: And they didn’t. But

[00:21:09] nick: E.T.

was a- no. No. no. no.

[00:21:11] joe: Yeah.

[00:21:11] Chris_G: Negative Nancy.

[00:21:13] joe: Yeah.

[00:21:13] Mary: Right.

[00:21:14] nick: Not yet.

[00:21:15] joe: Right.

right.

ET could have been a-

Four years … …a youth, a adolescent,

and-

[00:21:21] nick: Or the

[00:21:22] joe: The adults,

[00:21:23] nick: of them … a scientist, right Like, they were there gathering information about us. Why

[00:21:27] joe: think more evidence is that he’s- You know?

a youngster

Wasn’t

[00:21:30] Chris_G: he a

scout?

[00:21:31] joe: A scout. Yeah.

His powers weren’t

quite under control. He had some, you

know-

[00:21:35] nick: He almost killed Elliot.

[00:21:37] joe: the

whole psychic link thing was kind of,

[00:21:40] Chris_G: Which time?

[00:21:41] Mary: Which time?

[00:21:41] georgia: Which time?

[00:21:42] nick: Thank you for that one.

[00:21:45] joe: But yeah, I think that was a-

[00:21:47] nick: Oh, got it.

[00:21:48] Mary: So what was your experience like watching E.T. for the first time, Chris?

[00:21:53] Chris_G: Oh, I thought you were throwing it over to

[00:21:55] Mary: to me? Yeah, no, yeah. You

[00:21:55] joe: the shirt. I mean, you’re decked

out. I mean, you

[00:21:57] Mary: wanna ask our guests.

[00:21:58] Chris_G: here. Yeah. I

said [00:22:00] this during the Gremlins

[00:22:00] joe: podcast.

[00:22:01] georgia: podcast.

[00:22:01] nick: podcast.

[00:22:01] Mary: podcast- … that

[00:22:02] georgia: That I-

[00:22:03] Chris_G: have been friends with Joe- when we were seven in ’82. He’d have been over to my house for lunch. Maybe not dinner,

[00:22:11] joe: but

definitely

[00:22:12] Chris_G: lunch. Because- Sleepovers

[00:22:14] Mary: an image.

[00:22:15] nick: Not

[00:22:15] Chris_G: well- Lunch

[00:22:16] joe: Yeah, right.

[00:22:17] Chris_G: The problem is y- you are a seven-year-old that has seen The Thing, that has seen movies that I definitely-

[00:22:25] joe: Fangoria, be like, “Here you go.” I like

[00:22:27] Mary: not at seven. I was-

[00:22:29] joe: At seven, yeah. Yeah. Heavy

Metal.

[00:22:30] nick: Yeah. Wait, you didn’t have a friend who you went to their house and they showed you the films that your parents wouldn’t let you watch?

[00:22:37] joe: at seven.

[00:22:38] nick: Oh, yeah.

[00:22:39] Chris_G: At nine and 10, yes.

[00:22:41] joe: Yeah,

[00:22:42] Chris_G: nine and 10, I’m starting to watch you know, Revenge of the Nerds, the movies that are showing a little more skin than your average.

[00:22:48] joe: Hey, Millie, let’s watch Alien.

Let’s go. Let’s do it.

[00:22:52] Chris_G: all about it. It- That’s it … when I was seven, though, and I’m collecting Garbage Pail Kids, and, you know, I’m, I’m-

[00:22:59] joe: yeah, no, I did

[00:23:00] that, too. Yeah.

[00:23:00] Chris_G: I got Hot Wheels on

[00:23:01] joe: the I got, yeah, Hot Wheels, Transformer. Well, that would’ve been a little bit, you know, close, but yeah.

[00:23:05] Chris_G: trying to make us different, and he’s like, “I had that too.

[00:23:07] joe: Yeah. Next.” Yeah.

yeah.

[00:23:09] Chris_G: “I had that too. Next. What

[00:23:10] nick: are you

We’re the exact

same. You just didn’t watch The Thing. Right.

[00:23:12] joe: I

was just

[00:23:13] Chris_G: of-

[00:23:13] joe: Expressing, you know, kind of the psychological trauma.

[00:23:16] georgia: could you

[00:23:17] Chris_G: Could you still be friends with

[00:23:20] georgia: The fact he didn’t like E.T., would you still be friends with him?

[00:23:24] Chris_G: That might have been a deal breaker-

[00:23:25] georgia: Yeah.

[00:23:26] Chris_G: in

’82. breaker. Yeah. And

[00:23:28] joe: I, it just wasn’t… It didn’t rate up. I thought it was an okay mo- Actually, I didn’t really enjoy the movie when I- No,

I, I thought you said it was a good movie

You’re

[00:23:33] georgia: you said it was a

good movie- Yeah, but that’s- And now you’re saying an okay movie

I did

[00:23:37] Chris_G: not- Don’t

romanticize it

[00:23:38] georgia: it …I

[00:23:38] joe: not enjoy the movie. I really didn’t. Like, I would watch, I mean,

The Thing. Any of these movies on the list,

you know, Blade Runner, I mean, I watched all those movies. Star Trek, Wrath of

[00:23:49] Chris_G: I mean- You brought up Wrath of Khan. I, I, in my research for tonight, I didn’t realize that those two were on the same- yeah

within the same m- Yeah … 60 days or so. Right, yeah. The [00:24:00] complex that movie gave me every time I put a Q-tip.

[00:24:04] joe: the

[00:24:04] Mary: right?

Yeah.

[00:24:05] joe: That’s right, the ear- Oh. We had talked about doing a earworm episode, not only earworm, as in sounds that get stuck in your head,

but- Bro … literally an earworm. That’s a real earworm. I

[00:24:14] Chris_G: time. Every

[00:24:15] joe: season

[00:24:16] Chris_G: That’s daily. Yeah. Get on in there, and you’re like, “Okay.

[00:24:20] joe: yeah.

God! Yeah.

[00:24:21] nick: You want them out.

[00:24:22] joe: It is one of the…

I, yes, no.

[00:24:24] Mary: Nothing is better than a Q-tip in the ear.

[00:24:26] joe: No, except a-

[00:24:27] Mary: It’s the

[00:24:28] joe: except some sort of mind-controlling worm. No. Speaking of

mind

controlling, that was

E.T.’s thing, right?

[00:24:33] Mary: Anyway, so, back to your ex- your experience watching E.T. It

[00:24:36] Chris_G: the greatest. Yeah. I walked out of that, oh, man.

[00:24:41] Mary: I- Magic

[00:24:42] Chris_G: I

forgot to eat the popcorn, Joe. That’s how enthralled I was in this. And by the way, it is an exercise in product placement.

It

is. Sweet Lord, I stopped writing them down. I watched this movie last night or the night before.

[00:24:55] joe: yep.

Yeah, we were t- you t- yep.

[00:24:57] georgia: kind of beer was E.T.

drinking?

[00:24:59] Mary: What[00:25:00]

[00:25:00] Chris_G: of beer was E.T. drinking? Yeah.

‘Cause I was drinking Miller Lite while I was watching it Who knows? He was drinking Coors?

[00:25:04] georgia: I wanna say it was Coobers. It was Coors.

[00:25:05] joe: it was Coors. Yep. Yeah.

[00:25:06] Chris_G: Yeah. Yeah. And,

[00:25:08] joe: and-

yep, yep.

yep.

[00:25:10] Chris_G: Yeah, and-

and- He can &spell …

sending that

[00:25:12] joe: and

[00:25:13] georgia: Oh, I

[00:25:13] Chris_G: list. I have- it’s an ugly it’s an ugly

[00:25:16] joe: a list, we

love

[00:25:16] georgia: had

[00:25:17] Mary: Oh, yeah. What’s

[00:25:18] nick: Star Wars? I’m

[00:25:19] joe: I’ma

get my Mac and Me

list- Yeah … ’cause that

was

[00:25:21] nick: Oh.

[00:25:21] joe: pla-

[00:25:23] Mary: Oh, Mac and Me.

[00:25:26] Chris_G: my goodness.

[00:25:26] joe: Yeah. Oh, man. was, that was- the best,

that

[00:25:27] Chris_G: best, that was the better- So I don’t think- I feel like I’m being dared

[00:25:29] nick: think, I don’t think- I remember being dared

to watch that.

[00:25:31] Chris_G: say, I don’t think

[00:25:32] georgia: Chris will ever come back.

So- All

[00:25:34] nick: All right.

So- I don’t act- I didn’t see E.T. in theaters, right? I saw it with my brother on VHS in the ’90s. He’s already seen it,

[00:25:44] Chris_G: That’s acceptable, by the way. Like,

[00:25:46] nick: it wasn’t the same experience that you guys were all able to have, like. Right. And then seeing it last night I would gladly show my daughter, because it’s a kids friendly movie that I can be like, “Yeah, sure. Why not?” But as [00:26:00] an adult, I’m like, again, I’m old and cynical and I hate everything.

[00:26:04] Mary: Except Spider-Man movies.

[00:26:05] nick: It was too- Exactly.

It was

[00:26:07] georgia: It was too sweet for you then. It was,

[00:26:09] nick: like-

seeing

the stuff and being like, “Oh,

I’m

noticing the flaws in it this time.” Seeing the scientists coming in astronaut suits. Why are they

coming- you would do that … their hazmat suits are available at

this time.

[00:26:24] georgia: because of

the-

[00:26:25] joe: They have a

[00:26:26] nick: a full astronaut suit.

I

[00:26:28] joe: I

think the… Right. The, I

think- This- … hazmat suits would’ve

been, but in ’82 we gotta think.

’82?

You would wear- They were available

hazmat suits.

You would be concerned about planetary contamination. That breaks down though that they knew E.T. had been on the planet for a few weeks, a month, and did nothing about it. So we now have a potential biohazard just roaming around-

[00:26:54] nick: is when hazmat suits were made. Maybe. Or generally.

[00:26:57] Chris_G: that’s not true.

[00:26:59] joe: [00:27:00] contact.

[00:27:01] Chris_G: Oh. Michael J. Fox had a hazmat suit in 1955- Yeah … in a barn next to a DeLorean.

[00:27:05] joe: 40s,

[00:27:06] georgia: Yeah, I said

[00:27:06] Chris_G: I will have you know. Yeah?

[00:27:07] joe: said 40s. That’s before 50.

[00:27:10] Chris_G: ’50. Oh, yeah. Oh, I don’t teach

[00:27:12] joe: sorry.

[00:27:12] Chris_G: I don’t teach math.

[00:27:13] joe: I was like, “

Oh,

[00:27:15] Chris_G: I swear I thought you said 60.

I apologize. I swear I thought you said 1960. I’m glad we

can edit. ’50. I’m glad we can edit this

[00:27:24] nick: Nope, that’s, that all stays in, man. Chris is ready d- no, what, what year did you say? I swear you said ’60. Oh.

[00:27:31] joe: He did say 40s. Yeah. He did say 40s. Yeah. yeah. My But anyway, that’s okay.

[00:27:34] Chris_G: Yeah, that’s okay. My

[00:27:34] joe: do a lot of research, but when he does it’s I

I think about it

[00:27:38] georgia: And it just seems like those, the, the scientists, like, in the, like, whoever Peter Coyote’s character would’ve been and all them, it seems like they would’ve came to that house- They would’ve come to see him

and they would’ve just rushed in, and not waited until they left

[00:27:54] joe: would’ve taken Elliot

[00:27:55] georgia: Elliott away. Don’t you think? They

[00:27:56] joe: house. They just, like, come in- I don’t know why he was

allowed to be

[00:27:58] georgia: They would just, like, [00:28:00] come in and, “

[00:28:00] joe: the

room. Let ’em,

let this kid have…” No,

all of that,

the

whole mi- And …that, that was

I think that was a Spielberg kind of thread though from Close Encounters. I watched Close Encounters also ’cause, you know, some people say that’s the prequel to E.T.

and now Disclosure is the end cap of the trilogy. Yeah. And I haven’t seen Disclosure Day, so. But watching, Close Encounters there was a mistrust of the government. Well-

[00:28:23] nick: they were also listening in to their citizens

[00:28:26] joe: and the

movie, and I don’t know which several countries had banned E.T.

because they thought it led to mistrust between adults and kids and the military and government complexes. So it was like, “Oh, we don’t want that kind of-“

But

then, Um,

[00:28:41] georgia: they

[00:28:41] joe: and it-

was interesting that you had that

[00:28:44] georgia: worse, or much more- You

[00:28:45] joe: have watched the thing.

I mean, that’s

[00:28:47] georgia: No, what I’m saying, though,

[00:28:48] Chris_G: I’m from the government, I’m here to help

[00:28:50] joe: right.

[00:28:50] georgia: What I’m saying is that those government scientists and those, you know, the government- Yeah … and the scientists, they could’ve been a lot- More [00:29:00] forceful and a lot more But

[00:29:01] joe: they probably

would’ve been, right?

Yeah. I I think if E- the, the real situation, ET came, they knew he landed or it landed. I don’t know if, I think it was a male. But you know, you would’ve, they would’ve taken it immediately to some complex to study.

Elliot,

if they realized had some psychic link, would’ve been taken. His whole family, that house would’ve been quarantined.

That town, I think it would’ve just been shut down because E.T.,

not only

he was in the environment, so microbes birds, plants, dirt, soil samples, other people he interacted with, the stuff they interacted with that he interacted with. He was laying in a water source,

probably

contaminating it- … dying. So now we got decaying, dead alien material in a water

source, and no one even told the town.

They’re

just drinking their cups of water, happy

as can be, man. I think , they just went along with

[00:29:54] Chris_G: I think the move is put a giant Ziploc bag around the entire house and just let them all cook.

[00:29:59] georgia: [00:30:00] That’s

[00:30:00] joe: giant zip lock bag around the entire house and just let him all cook. Right, that’s what

I’m saying. I think the movie didn’t handle that correctly.

[00:30:03] nick: They didn’t do a good job at that

either. They

[00:30:05] georgia: They did

[00:30:05] Chris_G: not handle it at all.

[00:30:07] joe: They did not handle it at all. No, right,

[00:30:08] Chris_G: they just,

[00:30:09] nick: They-

[00:30:09] Chris_G: they wrapped it in Saran Wrap and said, “We’re gonna deal with it later.”

To

[00:30:12] joe: of plot, they just kind of-

[00:30:13] georgia: They did

[00:30:14] joe: deal with that

[00:30:14] georgia: bag around it … they did have actual doctors though playing those, that scene where they were like w- you know-

[00:30:21] Chris_G: So

[00:30:21] Mary: the chatter would be more realistic, what they’re talking about? Yeah. And

[00:30:24] joe: And the whole

[00:30:25] nick: Can you confirm something for me?

[00:30:26] joe: can

[00:30:27] nick: In the or- original, I remember them shooting at them while on the bikes. Is that-

[00:30:32] Mary: Is that-

[00:30:32] georgia: right. Is that- Mm-hmm …

like,

[00:30:34] Chris_G: I m- They definitely had guns drawn. If they fired or not, I couldn’t

[00:30:38] joe: didn’t fire

[00:30:39] georgia: they fired. They fired,

[00:30:39] Mary: don’t remember

[00:30:41] joe: redid.

[00:30:42] Chris_G: He-

Well …

[00:30:42] joe: edited. Oh, go ahead. Oh. No, that’s what… Yeah, he edited, yeah, He

[00:30:45] Chris_G: redid it in, in-

[00:30:46] nick: he-

[00:30:46] georgia: And he put walkie-talkies,

[00:30:48] Chris_G: CGI’d walkie-talkies into the thing.

[00:30:49] nick: there were more guns,

[00:30:51] joe: were more guns,

[00:30:51] Chris_G: Oh, right when the boys take off- That’s

[00:30:53] joe: right.

They all

draw

[00:30:54] Chris_G: guns. in

[00:30:55] nick: only seen one shotgun in that film. Yeah,

[00:30:57] joe: have guns. When

they go into

the van, they have the guns [00:31:00] drawn. They’re looking at, you know. So yeah, the

guns

[00:31:01] Chris_G: a very deliberate ch. I mean, there was

[00:31:03] joe: shotguns. The guy, he’s the…

[00:31:05] georgia: Yeah. When the one-

[00:31:06] joe: said he he didn’t, that’s the one thing he feels bad about when he redid it, and he tells people, “Go watch the original. Don’t watch the reissued movie because, .”

[00:31:15] Chris_G: Well, we’re different now, too.

[00:31:17] georgia: up there.

[00:31:17] joe: Yeah, well, yeah. Yeah, we’re circle back. But- List. List.

We should be

listing. Yo, you got a list?

[00:31:23] georgia: Go

[00:31:23] Mary: ahead, please.

[00:31:24] joe: please. Yep.

[00:31:24] Chris_G: Like right off the top. I mean, th- this is ridiculous. Like, what would it take for even, like, a sitcom to have this many products- in the first 10 minutes? I mean, the, the whole fridge. I mean, you can see everything.

Coca-Cola, Raid, Fresca, Fresca, Tab. Oh, y- you can- Tab. Oh, love me some Tab. Tab. Sun-Maid raisins, Fritos, Hills Brothers Chutes and Ladders, Stratego, the Star Wars toys. And if you watch the same- Oh, yeah … The same documentary that I did on the making of E.T., just

[00:31:55] joe: the little

[00:31:55] Chris_G: cat and mouse that they did with

[00:31:57] nick: right George Lucas?

[00:31:58] Chris_G: Spielberg and Lucas.

[00:31:59] joe: had

a bet, [00:32:00] right? From Star Wars and was it Close Encounters? I’m trying to think which two movies, but they made a bet which one would be bigger, and then they lost the bet. So that was,

[00:32:10] Chris_G: a- I think George wins right there. Well-

Like, by a lot.

[00:32:12] joe: Yep. Well,

[00:32:13] georgia: I guess George Lucas put in E.T.

characters in one of his films.

[00:32:18] Chris_G: in one of his films. Oh, definitely. Phantom Menace. Right? Oh, yeah.

[00:32:20] georgia: So,

and then- Which

[00:32:21] Chris_G: me to a question that I’m pointing right at Nick. I was gonna wait. I was gonna throw

[00:32:25] joe: the- They had one

[00:32:26] Mary: one.

[00:32:26] Chris_G: Is E.T.

[00:32:28] joe: a Jedi?

Right.

Because he

[00:32:30] Chris_G: he is- Oh …

[00:32:32] joe: Right

[00:32:32] Chris_G: in the Star Wars universe. Oh, yeah. Look at his abilities.

[00:32:36] nick: I don’t think he’s a

[00:32:36] joe: a scene-

[00:32:37] nick: Jedi, but I do think that are, there are people, or creatures in his species that could be, just because

he looked at Yoda-

[00:32:46] georgia: he’s not a Jedi? Because he’s too young.

[00:32:47] joe: Jedi? Well,

[00:32:48] nick: ’cause he’s too young

[00:32:49] joe: I was

[00:32:49] Chris_G: he’s a Padawan.

I

[00:32:50] nick: Padawan.

Yes Like he

[00:32:50] Chris_G: He’s possibly on his

[00:32:51] georgia: become

[00:32:52] nick: he’s also has he feels love and stuff. So if he does go down the-

[00:32:57] joe: gonna say,

in the

[00:32:58] nick: If he does

go down this lane, [00:33:00] he will become a Sith Lord because- no, no

yes, because he has love- Well-

Which means-

[00:33:05] Chris_G: cynical. All right. all

right. I wanna

[00:33:06] joe: Hold on. Can I add something

here?

[00:33:08] Chris_G: why I threw

[00:33:09] nick: Hold on. Can I interject in here? Why I threw it in.

[00:33:11] joe: bolster that.

In

the movie when you watch it, during the Halloween scene,

[00:33:15] nick: sees Yoda

[00:33:16] Chris_G: he

[00:33:16] joe: says Yoda- Of course …

and he

looks at him and he goes, “Home.” Yeah. He goes, Home.”

Home.” So is

Yoda

in… You know, if he’s now on the council and he knows that, is a, is he a Padawan? Is he being trained? Is he b- I’m just adding that in for the listeners that if they haven’t

watched

a movie, that

th-

this connection isn’t

just loosely Spielberg, Lucas.

But it was, there, there

actually- was this,

[00:33:38] nick: in. I

think-

[00:33:38] Chris_G: Yep. Yep. So.

But in the first showing that George Lucas saw in a theater with Spielberg sitting next to him- All, all Spielberg told Lucas was, “There’s something in this movie.

There’s something in this for you.”

[00:33:50] joe: Lucas and Spielberg both had their movies coming out in ’77.

Yeah. And Lucas was convinced Star Wars w- would flop, and Spielberg’s movie was a guaranteed hit. [00:34:00] So talk about people mis- misreading the

[00:34:02] Chris_G: the room.

[00:34:02] joe: They made a friendly bet. Each gave each other 2.5% of the respective film profits.

Wow. Lucas lost catastrophically.

So yeah, so, so yeah. So they’re really good friends.

They had this kind of relationship going and yeah, no, so you, you see that in their movies and back and forth with the product

placement and have that. And they’re in the same universe, obviously, E.T.

and-

Oh, yes … Yeah …right. Because

in In the council scene, you have ETs in there.

[00:34:31] Chris_G: So- Him being able to lift

[00:34:33] joe: Wars, the

[00:34:33] Chris_G: by thinking about it. He’s, he can read minds. He can t- he

can tell

[00:34:38] joe: can heal. Yeah,

[00:34:39] nick: Yeah,

[00:34:39] Chris_G: he can heal.

[00:34:41] joe: Yeah, handwaviums.

Well,

[00:34:43] Chris_G: I’m Telling

[00:34:43] nick: you. what was

[00:34:43] Mary: gonna

[00:34:44] joe: Handwaviums . I

[00:34:44] georgia: say? Oh, I was gonna say,

[00:34:45] Chris_G: If it walks like

[00:34:46] joe: a duck,

[00:34:47] Chris_G: quacks like a duck…

[00:34:49] georgia: know there’s an animated E.T. show, right? Isn’t there? There

[00:34:53] nick: there is.

[00:34:54] georgia: I think there is.

[00:34:55] nick: Are you talking about ALF?

[00:34:57] georgia: No, I

think there’s an actual

[00:34:58] joe: Oh, man.

[00:34:59] Chris_G: But [00:35:00]

[00:35:00] georgia: I was gonna say is-

[00:35:01] Chris_G: Oh,

[00:35:02] nick: No. I think it’s- … I don’t remember what I was gonna say. Oh, sorry, Chris. That one hurt

wasn’t…

[00:35:03] Mary: sigh heard round the

[00:35:04] nick: was gonna ask, do

[00:35:06] georgia: do you think they could make an E.T. m- an E.T. movie, another one?

Like, could they connect it? Could they? Yeah, could they

[00:35:13] nick: it?

We’ll make

[00:35:14] Chris_G: anything. We’ll throw- Could they- … a new version of something out

[00:35:17] georgia: out? Could they do it well?

[00:35:18] joe: Spielberg- Yeah …would-

Yeah …it

[00:35:20] Chris_G: would be over his dead body.

[00:35:21] joe: Yeah. Yeah. I, I think he thought about, there

was a sequel he thought about, but I think it, he just thought

it would

[00:35:27] georgia: part of the Star Wars- Yes

universe.

[00:35:30] nick: That’s also owned by Disney now- I know

and George Lucas gave up his

[00:35:34] georgia: E.T.

[00:35:34] nick: E.T. versus

[00:35:35] Chris_G: Predator

[00:35:36] georgia: But I

[00:35:39] joe: E.T. versus Alien. We can just go, we can run through…

I got some notes and all, but I was gonna talk about the telekinesis scene and the bikes and the moon. Can’t happen. The perspectives are all wrong.

So you

really can’t have the bikes. The moon size would mean the moon would be too close to Earth, which would be catastrophic, [00:36:00] and it just wouldn’t…

They’d be too high. It just wouldn’t, it just wouldn’t work.

It was

[00:36:04] Chris_G: deGrasse Tyson in the room

right now. So good to meet you, sir.

[00:36:08] joe: that’d be doctor,

cause, so

[00:36:10] Chris_G: Oh, b-

[00:36:11] georgia: What’d you s- what did

[00:36:13] Chris_G: With a Scottish accent? Whoa. Dr. deGrasse.

[00:36:14] georgia: deGrasse, Doctor,

[00:36:15] joe: DeGrace, Dr., you know, Taylor,

Dr. Austin.

Yes, that’s right.

[00:36:19] nick: I don’t think Joe

has ever pulled the

doctor

card.

[00:36:22] Mary: Doctor.

[00:36:23] Chris_G: If he pull, if they pull the mister

[00:36:24] nick: card.

[00:36:25] joe: whoever the hell it is. yes. Ever pulled doctor. Doctor … and people, they pull a Mr. Card and

I gotta pull like, you know-

[00:36:27] Chris_G: I gotta pull the doctor. It’s like

[00:36:28] joe: on

the draw

four down,

right?

[00:36:30] nick: Joe’s come for blood this

episode. Well, yeah. But you have

[00:36:33] joe: you have the

whole- Come on

I mean, I think the, the silhouette is probably there.

The just the geometry wouldn’t work

[00:36:39] Mary: You’re right. I hate it now.

[00:36:41] nick: yeah. That’s all we were looking for this episode.

[00:36:46] Chris_G: this

[00:36:46] georgia: gonna say, is there any other science that we can talk about?

We could talk about the,

[00:36:50] Chris_G: talk about the

[00:36:51] georgia: the

[00:36:51] joe: you get- The- The, the psychic link

[00:36:53] georgia: and- We could talk about that kind of- And then he goes and it

[00:36:55] joe: even work. There’s

no-

[00:36:57] Chris_G: Oh my

[00:36:58] joe: Get out. Is it [00:37:00] chemical?

[00:37:00] Chris_G: Gee. All

[00:37:01] joe: All right. here’s my

proof how bogus. Even in the movie …they ruin…

[00:37:05] georgia: wasn’t.

[00:37:05] Chris_G: they

ru-

[00:37:06] nick: Oh my God … they,

[00:37:07] joe: All right, listen.

Chris,

[00:37:08] Chris_G: check

it

[00:37:08] Mary: out- I can’t imagine, like, watching any… Did you… When you watched The Thing, did you go, “That would never happen”?

[00:37:15] Chris_G: You

know what? You know what?

You know

[00:37:16] joe: can, yeah.

[00:37:17] Chris_G: You

[00:37:18] Mary: okay.

[00:37:18] joe: never-

Okay … go-

[00:37:19] Mary: and go, “Wait

[00:37:20] joe: and go, “Wait a second … a little bit longer. We’ll give it a little bit-

[00:37:21] nick: Okay. So- Little bit

[00:37:21] Mary: does somebody detach their own head and go scrolling around?” Okay,

[00:37:26] joe: Go listen to

The Thing episode.

We dug in all that. I am I pass out the handwavium checks to everyone.

But

the

psychic thing really, even in the m- in the show, in the movie, you have it. They got this connection, they get drunk together, they do all this stuff, but E.T.’s dying somewhere. Elliott goes off, and then he can’t locate

him.

Like, what happened to your link now? Where’s your link at? Like why’s …your

brother gotta go out and do this whole thing? And then you link back up. I think the whole thing there, it was like a total plot handwavium device and it [00:38:00] just… That, that part, if you’re gonna keep consistent.

Elliott should’ve been like, “Oh, he’s at the river, the, the creek-

[00:38:06] Chris_G: Need some

[00:38:07] joe: lotion. Get out there

[00:38:09] Mary: He has

counselor Troy Powers.

[00:38:10] nick: all right.

In defense of E.T. Tan rubber

[00:38:12] joe: man

[00:38:13] Chris_G: Tan rubber man comes down from space.

[00:38:15] joe: finger glow.

[00:38:16] Chris_G: His belly and his finger glow, and he can do all this awesome stuff, and Joe’s problem-

[00:38:21] joe: can’t use it. He doesn’t have

[00:38:23] Chris_G: is the telekinesis.

[00:38:26] nick: doesn’t have GPS yet. It’s

[00:38:27] Chris_G: Sorry, Dr. Joe. No. I was way off.

[00:38:30] nick: problems also- I was way off. Sorry

[00:38:31] joe: breathes

our

air,

eats our food, metabolically… No, all that’s a problem, too. I ain’t even getting into the life. Georgia brought up the psychic link, and that’s why I went

[00:38:39] nick: now that

[00:38:40] joe: But now you brought up

the food

issue. Yes,

all that is also a a pro- I’m gonna chew

[00:38:48] georgia: Pieces

[00:38:48] Chris_G: That’s a Reese’s piece of

[00:38:48] georgia: for

[00:38:49] Chris_G: my candy right into your

[00:38:50] nick: Those are

M&M’s. Product

[00:38:53] Chris_G: Oh,

are you eating the

[00:38:54] nick: Oh, you’re eating the M&M’s?

Yeah, he doesn’t like Reese’s Pieces after the movie.

[00:38:58] joe: M&M’s? Yeah. Oh my gosh. After the

[00:38:59] Chris_G: movie.

[00:38:59] georgia: [00:39:00] I like these. That’s traitor. These are the best

[00:39:01] Chris_G: That was

the point. It was

supposed to be M&Ms. Mm-hmm.

[00:39:04] joe: That’s Traitor. Yeah, after the movie. That was the point. That was supposed to be M&M. Mm-hmm. The plants

also was an issue for me. I think that was a-

[00:39:08] Mary: that- Oh, like when it, when he was dying the

[00:39:10] joe: Star Trek thing. Yeah, the plants, the whole thing.

[00:39:12] georgia: and then when

[00:39:12] joe: because those weren’t plants. Those

are flowers, which I think leads

to a really interesting point about the species of E.T.,

because the flower is a reproductive organ, and it’s a terminal organ, so it produces the next generation of life. It was the issue I had with The Gremlins. That’s why I think it was a bioweapon, ’cause there was no cycle of life there. And so with the flower, which was interesting, is that he rejuvenated a reproductive organ that would produce new

life,

right?

So the

flower is

dead.

[00:39:43] georgia: what, Joe? That’s

when, that’s when- I don’t- …

it should

[00:39:46] Chris_G: I don’t- That should

[00:39:46] joe: that’s what…

That should die. I

mean, that,

the, the flower should die to give

to the seeds, and the seeds then you plant, and you get a new plant. So by him reactivating

or, or

[00:39:56] georgia: you know what?

[00:39:57] Chris_G: know what? Ladies and gentlemen, next week tune

[00:39:58] joe: in.

[00:39:59] nick: week tune in- … [00:40:00] to discuss

[00:40:00] Chris_G: the Easter Bunny.

[00:40:02] georgia: Is

that what

[00:40:04] Mary: lays eggs.

[00:40:04] georgia: said? I

mean, Joe, it could’ve just been a simple device

[00:40:09] joe: do you say? I mean, Joe, it could’ve just been a simple device

[00:40:10] georgia: Very

visual to show something dying and then something coming back and

living Exactly. You can use the

[00:40:16] Chris_G: plant

[00:40:16] joe: Why not just have

the plant do that?

why

[00:40:18] nick: Wait, what movie did

[00:40:19] Mary: do that? Yeah. Right? Or a bird. Wait, movie-

[00:40:19] nick: bird?

[00:40:19] joe: blooming and

[00:40:20] Mary: and the f- the flowering. Oh, yeah. Can I have another hot take?

Yes. Okay, I think that it’s really great. Okay, first of all, Drew Barrymore is so wonderful.

[00:40:30] georgia: I love her so much Yeah. Oh,

yeah.

She makes that

movie.

[00:40:33] Mary: really is. She reminds me so much of my sister. They’re about the same age, you know,

alligators in the sewer. They’re just so nutty. And

[00:40:41] nick: repeating

everything.

[00:40:43] Mary: I love that in ET…

Well, that ET starts to become more verbal through Gertie, through, through

[00:40:51] georgia: through Drew,

[00:40:51] Mary: Drew Barrymore’s

character, and he starts to feel, that’s fine.

[00:40:56] joe: He starts

[00:40:57] Mary: to feel pretty. He starts

to get in touch with his inner [00:41:00] girl, with, you know, he starts to dress up and I just love it. He starts

[00:41:03] joe: he like that? Or was that like when you- I mean, he starts- … you make up the dog …he starts to like And it’s just, full on-

and-

[00:41:08] nick: That’s how it Elliot was to

him.

[00:41:09] Mary: he seemed so happy how do you know if he was happy or I

[00:41:12] georgia: And

[00:41:13] nick: not?

[00:41:13] joe: assigning some emotions to him … he was so happy. He was just standing there, like, with

the wig on and

the,

[00:41:17] Mary: he was like, he starts he’s more verbal. He’s more engaged with his environment

[00:41:22] georgia: goes, “I taught him to talk.” I know.

I

[00:41:24] Mary: I know.

[00:41:25] georgia: so cute.

[00:41:26] joe: sweet.

[00:41:27] Mary: sweet.

Oh, I just,

[00:41:29] nick: you

know- Be good.

[00:41:30] Mary: buckets. Oh my gosh. Well, I, when I was 10, I was like, “I must not cry in this movie.” And like yesterday I was just,

[00:41:39] georgia: just let it go

[00:41:40] Mary: let it go …just let it go and just cried my eyes out.

[00:41:42] georgia: the fact that the mom was so frazzled that she just didn’t, like,

notice anything.

Well,

[00:41:47] Chris_G: hey, let’s

give- a- At all. Yeah.

[00:41:49] nick: Was

a single

mom right there.

We- She was doing a great

[00:41:53] joe: the

[00:41:53] Chris_G: She was doing a great job. And the beer cans, empty

beer cans. Yes. Thank you.

She looked

[00:41:56] nick: them and noticed. She was like, “Oh, these weren’t supposed to be emptied.”[00:42:00]

[00:42:00] joe: weren’t supposed to be empty.”

How does- Well, right,

the beer cans are all over. She didn’t really comment on that, and there

was a lot of beer cans

[00:42:04] Mary: you know what? She has three kids and she’s working. You know, stuff is gonna

[00:42:09] georgia: going on. And she’s dealing with-

[00:42:10] joe: And

she’s dealing with them. I mean-

[00:42:11] Mary: Exactly.

[00:42:11] georgia: She’s dealing with her hus- And

[00:42:12] Chris_G: 6,000- She’s dealing with her son

getting- Gertie was all of a sudden a foot shorter- Yeah … under a sheet.

[00:42:17] Mary: You know what?

[00:42:18] nick: Ooh. eye holes

[00:42:19] Chris_G: holes that were

15

feet away from each

[00:42:22] joe: you

remember these commercials?

[00:42:23] nick: You remember these commercials? Yes. And- And the wall

is good … that arm length. Ah. Do

[00:42:27] joe: you remember… Do you know where your children are?

[00:42:29] Chris_G: Of course.

[00:42:30] Mary: Oh,

[00:42:30] joe: so that’s the c-

so

[00:42:32] Chris_G: yeah. Oh, yeah.

[00:42:32] nick: Oh, yeah.

What was that?

[00:42:34] joe: In the ’80s.

What age are the kids? that

[00:42:37] georgia: 9, or 10. o’clock?

[00:42:38] joe: nine or 10 o’clock? Nine or 10. I don’t know. Maybe

both. And

they

[00:42:41] Mary: they

[00:42:41] georgia: And they’d be like, and they’d play it on the TV- Commercials … and they’d go,

and It wasn’t even a

commercial. It was like a PSA.

[00:42:46] joe: Yeah, and Like, stars. do you- They were like

[00:42:48] georgia: Do you know

where your children are?”

Yeah. Yeah. Grace

[00:42:51] joe: Jones was on it. I think she was one of them. Like, it’s like, “Do

you know-“

[00:42:54] Chris_G: run away from Grace Jones.

[00:42:56] joe: Do

you know where your

[00:42:56] Mary: would run

[00:42:57] nick: No. I got no clue.

[00:42:59] joe: [00:43:00] Yeah.

I was

[00:43:00] Mary: Jones is awesome.

[00:43:01] Chris_G: She

actually scared me

[00:43:03] joe: I was gonna point out something She does scare me …about the

adults in there. Something I had seen was that the first half of the film was shot so adults are never seen from the waist up. Mm-hmm. And it’s an interesting thing, and it was a tribute to the cartoons of Tex Avery.

And Tex Avery was the director of cartoons at MGM from like ’42 to ’54. Pretty much every cartoon that didn’t feature Tom and Jerry was his. And so Daffy Duck, Droopy, S- Screwy Squirrel, George and Junior, Chilly Willy, and he even coined, “What’s up, Doc?” at Bugs Bunny. So-

[00:43:33] nick: Rocky and Bullwinkle?

[00:43:35] joe: I don’t think that was- Oh.

[00:43:36] nick: Oh.

[00:43:37] Chris_G: If he just 15

[00:43:38] joe: That’s right, Yeah, big TV cartoons- I named Yeah. Be like, how about 16?

[00:43:43] nick: Yeah, I,

[00:43:43] georgia: I, I-

[00:43:44] nick: Well, I’m just saying-

[00:43:45] Mary: guess he’s not that

[00:43:46] nick: the art style

[00:43:46] Chris_G: looks…

[00:43:47] joe: Six- Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. I, I- Well, I

[00:43:48] nick: No, it’s that the art style looks very similar. That’s the only reason why I,

[00:43:51] joe: he do Mickey Mouse?

[00:43:52] Chris_G: That was some other guy.

[00:43:53] Mary: Yeah.

[00:43:54] joe: Yeah. but no, that was

[00:43:55] Chris_G: actually watching Tom and Jerry.

[00:43:57] joe: Okay. Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. They are. In in the living

room. [00:44:00] They are, yeah. Mm-hmm. yeah. But I

[00:44:01] Chris_G: the beer party starts.

[00:44:02] nick: artist- That was,

[00:44:03] joe: is that something… I mean,

[00:44:04] nick: he- ET

[00:44:05] joe: right up on that as an artist, I mean, and that style, and- Oh-

[00:44:08] georgia: Oh, they were watching, yeah … that slapstick and sat-

[00:44:10] joe: satirical humor that was in that.

I think that was something that was in there that they try,

[00:44:15] Chris_G: mean- It was definitely a zany scene … yeah.

[00:44:18] joe: right.

[00:44:19] nick: So Chris.

[00:44:20] joe: And

[00:44:20] Chris_G: alien

[00:44:20] joe: the beer, right. …That’s

right, yeah.

Yeah. That, that part of it was that whole, I think that was a nod back to, you know-

[00:44:27] Chris_G: I

would agree.

Yeah. I got you there. All right, Nick. Send it

[00:44:31] joe: back.

[00:44:31] nick: Yeah.

So you’d mentioned that there was connections to Gremlins.

How deep are these connections? What do you got? Like, I… You teased it real hard, and I wanna know now.

[00:44:42] Chris_G: Well, we touched upon it a few months back, that after E.T. was such a success, even though Spielberg said, “I’m not

[00:44:53] joe: 100%

[00:44:53] Chris_G: 100% sold on doing a sequel,” because he thinks he nailed it.

That, that was kind of gonna be his his swan song. Not [00:45:00] swan song, but his definite his masterpiece

That doesn’t mean scripts don’t get written because there’s script writers around every corner. So scripts were definitely written about what would happen if His species came back, and they weren’t all sweet

[00:45:15] nick: We did talk

about that.

[00:45:16] joe: they

weren’t

[00:45:17] Chris_G: quite as cuddly- Oh … as E.T.

And that became this, and that became this. In 1984, we got Gremlins. So that’s kinda- Nice … it’s kinda how that happened. Yeah,

[00:45:29] nick: So I had that

[00:45:30] Chris_G: out of the sky … like,

[00:45:33] nick: hot damn.

Really?

[00:45:35] Chris_G: Yeah. Yeah. I

[00:45:37] Mary: think that E.T.

is fascinating because how many movies do you see about aliens where the alien is friendly?

[00:45:46] joe: Oh.

[00:45:46] nick: Monsters vs. Aliens.

[00:45:48] Chris_G: And me, he’s got it

[00:45:49] nick: and Me.

[00:45:50] joe: Yeah, he’s

got it. I’ve got it, yeah.

[00:45:51] nick: Geez louise. Actually

[00:45:52] joe: you’re absolutely

[00:45:53] Mary: two more.

[00:45:54] joe: Most- most

[00:45:55] Chris_G: most aliens- So this does, yeah

[00:45:56] joe: you’ve led me right into a list. Thank you.

[00:45:58] Mary: All righty, please [00:46:00] do.

Well, I haven’t finished my… But go ahead, yes. In

[00:46:02] joe: cinema, The Day the Earth Stood Still. Mm-hmm. In 1951 that was a, a friendly, I mean, ish alien that came down. Came in peace and goodwill. Wanted people to chill.

[00:46:16] Chris_G: I was giving you that face because I was confusing that with War of the Worlds. Oh, right.

Pardon me.

[00:46:21] joe: I have another list that’s on, but in 1940 you had Henry Bates’ short story Farewell to the Master. So that was that was the original story for The Day the Earth Stood Still.

You had Arthur Clarke in ’53 Childhood’s End. You had the overseeing human evolution, you had just a, a kind, sweet alien. You had Murray Leinster’s First Contact in ’45. That was the first scientific concept and use of coined of the term first contact was in there. And it was a human and alien meet in deep space.

Neither can leave without risking the other going home, so they kinda were, there was a [00:47:00] standoff. There was no villain. It was just there. And then you had,

[00:47:02] nick: Mork and Mindy

[00:47:03] joe: Frank Russell’s Daredevil. What Mork and

[00:47:05] Chris_G: Mind- That’s in 1950.

[00:47:06] joe: 1950. I’m going

back.

[00:47:07] nick: sorry. I was confused by your timeline.

A lot

[00:47:09] joe: of these

were Cold War kind of aliens coming in to kind of, you know, “Why don’t you guys squash all the beef?”

And so a lot of these stories were in that vein. But you’re right. Up until these stories most the alien contact was was hostile, going all the way back to the 2nd century with Lucian of Samosata,

[00:47:29] nick: Samosata

[00:47:29] joe: a True Story,

which describes a visit to the moon and a war with the sun. And so that was kind of the first sci-fi

alien

kind of movie.

[00:47:40] Chris_G: All right, my research didn’t go quite-

[00:47:43] Mary: Back that far? Yeah.

[00:47:44] Chris_G: year two.

[00:47:45] joe: H- H.G.

Wells Yeah …is

where we think

a lot about and that was 1898, The War of the Worlds. People think that was the first kind of alien invasion, but you actually had a couple stories before that. Two Planets by Kurd [00:48:00] Lasswitz.

It was invaders.

[00:48:01] nick: Wait, I thought we were going friendly.

Wait … benevolent.

[00:48:03] joe: Well, I’m going to now… Pre the ’50s, most of the stories were about aliens coming down and just– And a lot of them were because of imperialism, colonialism, mirroring human dominance over another, going somewhere new, and then what would that look like in that ,

so War of, you know, kind of War of the Worlds.

And then The Germ Growers was in 1892 by Robert Potter, and that was credited as the very first alien invasion novel, featuring shapeshifting extraterrestrials that land in Australia outback to cultivate a deadly plague to wipe out humanity. So that’s that was there. So you

had- trust the Australians anyway.

And then all of this broke loose with the, Orson Welles’ War of the Worlds broadcast October 30th, 1938, which was this kind of bulletin, Martian invasion of New Jersey. You had this panic [00:49:00] Probably, , over- a little overblown. People did get freaked out, but most people knew it was a piece of fiction.

But you did have this thing where you could convince people that… And the frame it all, ’38, that was about 11 months before World War II started, so, it was tense. People thinking about invasions, things like that. So, but that’s it. So this is about, 44 years before E.T. The friendly…

But, you have this history of aliens coming, and they’re not here to make peace.

[00:49:28] Mary: And I think it’s interesting too when we have, like, those moments of, like, like panic, you know, you know, there’s times in our history that we welcome the str- the stranger.

[00:49:39] Chris_G: And

[00:49:39] Mary: there are times where we just assume that anyone different from us is hostile. Right.

[00:49:44] georgia: Right.

[00:49:45] Mary: So, and, I mean, have we had,

[00:49:47] joe: a…

[00:49:47] Mary: a…

Are

there any friendly alien movies that aren’t about,

[00:49:52] joe: you

know,

[00:49:53] Mary: that, like, expressly for kids?

[00:49:55] nick: Paul.

[00:49:55] Mary: Paul? Paul,

[00:49:56] nick: with Seth Rogen Simon Pegg, and Nick [00:50:00] Frost. Okay. Paul is an alien, and he just gets high with them all the time. It’s a really fun movie.

[00:50:05] Mary: Oh, that

[00:50:06] nick: They are

nerds that are, they write science fiction books

and- A

[00:50:10] Mary: with Simon Pegg?

[00:50:11] nick: I know, right? I- Oh. Normally he’s, like, the jock, right?

[00:50:15] joe: yeah. Yeah.

[00:50:15] Mary: yeah. Yeah.

[00:50:16] nick: Okay.

But highly recommend. It’s a good film. Okay.

[00:50:18] joe: Yeah.

[00:50:19] nick: and then Mork & Mindy came out b- before-

The ’70s,

E.T. ‘

[00:50:24] georgia: 70s, ‘

[00:50:24] Chris_G: 70s, yeah. Oh,

[00:50:24] joe: Yeah.

[00:50:24] nick: So that was a friendly alien before E.T.

[00:50:27] Mary: Yeah, and we’re sort of,

[00:50:28] joe: Was it My

[00:50:29] georgia: fave- my favorite Martian.

[00:50:31] joe: was what I was thinking. My

[00:50:32] georgia: was yeah, he was friendly.

[00:50:34] joe: Yep. Yeah.

Well,

I mean,

[00:50:35] Mary: like, dur- during, like, times where we… Well, I, actually there’s, during the ’50s famously intolerant of the stranger. But,

[00:50:42] nick: Yeah.

[00:50:42] Mary: I

[00:50:44] georgia: th- wonder, like- Yeah

yeah, like, immigrant rights- Mm-hmm … and, letting people, like, how that, like-

[00:50:50] joe: The,

[00:50:50] Mary: the panic around anything that’s, you know- Right … different, you know, that kind of thing. There is a … Well, I wanna go back. Oh, a couple minutes ago when we were talking about that [00:51:00] PSA, “Do you know where your children are?” You know, that kind of thing. It appears in a movie called V/H/S.

[00:51:06] joe: was…

Right. I

know. That was like, uh- Oh, Lord.

[00:51:08] Mary: Thank you.

[00:51:10] joe: It’s a …

[00:51:11] Mary: Have you, has anybody seen V/H/S/85?

[00:51:14] Chris_G: Yes.

[00:51:15] Mary: That’s a fun movie.

[00:51:16] Chris_G: No.

[00:51:17] nick: Love those movies. They do a great

job.

[00:51:19] Chris_G: just watched

[00:51:19] joe: I know what you’re talking about, but I haven’t, yep … VHS 85

[00:51:21] Mary: is probably one of my favorites probably because I was, like, at a … I was, like, 13 at, in ’85, so it was kind of formative for me. But, so I’m recognizing a lot of the stuff.

But in the movie, definitely for sure the alien is something- … Not to be trusted. Or maybe it’s coming in, and we assume it’s friendly to our detriment, that kind of thing.

[00:51:43] georgia: thing.

[00:51:43] Mary: If you … Yeah. If you’re … It’s a really as a … It’s a very uneven horror anthology, but I really recommend V/H/S 80- ’85 if you wanna

You know, it’s good and gory and scary

[00:51:57] Chris_G: and-

I’m gonna check

[00:51:57] Mary: and fun, and funny, too, so I like it a [00:52:00] lot.

[00:52:01] joe: There’s a- another

one- I had- Men In Black … oh, go

ahead. Men In Black, yep …but

[00:52:04] nick: just for you Chris, that Paul was very heavily inspired by E.T. Steven Spielberg shows up in the film as a cameo.

[00:52:12] Mary: Oh, man, what a score.

[00:52:13] nick: thought I’d let you know, because he ends up having a lot of the same Ending up having a lot of- … the aliens are, I mean, a lot of the aliens in there at the cantina hanging out, Rob Bottin was one of the cant- the players there in the band. But Rob

[00:52:26] Chris_G: Rob Bottin

[00:52:26] joe: who did all the practical effects for The Thing and

[00:52:29] georgia: had

[00:52:29] joe: other movies,

[00:52:29] georgia: in there.

[00:52:30] nick: man, are we talking about that

[00:52:31] Chris_G: bucket But I was gonna

[00:52:31] joe: I was gonna

say Star Wars, though,

was one where you had , the aliens were friendly. Close Encounters, they’re kind. They were friendly.

[00:52:38] Mary: Feel like the ’70s maybe were just a, maybe a friendlier time

[00:52:43] joe: I mean, maybe.

I don’t know.

It’s kind of- Yeah, yeah.

I know, yeah. I mean-

Yeah

[00:52:47] Mary: compared to now, I mean, the bar is on the floor now,

[00:52:50] georgia: Yeah.

[00:52:51] joe: yeah. Okay.

Yeah. And

[00:52:52] georgia: you know what I thought

[00:52:53] joe: you ha- you

also had in the ’70s Ridley Scott’s Alien. Which you know,

probably- Paul Rhodes

[00:52:58] georgia: That’s right.

[00:52:59] joe: right, yeah. So [00:53:00] you have that, so talking

about Alien- Well, that was the, the

and going in, you

know, that wasn’t a friendly

encounter.

[00:53:06] Mary: but I th- I would argue that the real villain in the Alien franchise is the company.

[00:53:11] nick: The corporation.

Yeah.

[00:53:12] Chris_G: Yeah.

Well, I mean- All

[00:53:13] joe: Yeah, that’s right. yeah. All

day long.

yeah. Yeah. Yes. yes.

Yeah. I’m just saying that we think of the alien in there, but they weren’t.

[00:53:20] Mary: Oh, yeah. How great is Alien Romulus? The greatest?

[00:53:23] Chris_G: greatest? So good. It’s definitely up

[00:53:24] Mary: So good? Okay. Anyway, all right, back to Al- back to ET. Okay, here we go.

[00:53:28] joe: Not my, Sorry …Harrison

[00:53:29] Chris_G: Ford was in a deleted scene- What?

[00:53:32] georgia: Oh, yeah. Is that right? yeah. No. He was a principal. He

was a principal.

That’s all I’m

[00:53:37] nick: it.

[00:53:37] Chris_G: Oh,

[00:53:38] Mary: the principal, excuse me.

[00:53:39] Chris_G: this goes to what you were saying about waist up not being seen on a character, because it was the callback to all the old animation. They got, like, one shot over his shoulder. You saw a little bit of the side of his head, and the rest of it was his knees to his feet. Yeah. They ended up taking that scene out all together.

[00:53:58] joe: said that he thought it would be distracting [00:54:00] ’cause s- Harrison Ford was coming off of, you know-

[00:54:02] Chris_G: He was hotter than anything right

[00:54:04] joe: so

it was kind of distracting from E.T.

[00:54:07] Chris_G: It kinda tore into the story

[00:54:09] joe: saved the movie I

if he was in it, so

[00:54:11] georgia: Oh, geez.

[00:54:12] nick: We always have to have

[00:54:17] Mary: have to have one contrarian in the group.

[00:54:19] georgia: vegetarian in the

[00:54:20] Chris_G: 1975.

Come on, man.

[00:54:21] joe: Yeah.

[00:54:21] georgia: Yeah.

[00:54:23] joe: was gonna,

I was gonna mention a, a Alien story which I really, I enjoyed, and it’s interesting ’cause it’s about, more, like, about alien artifacts, but it was Roadside Picnic in 1972. It was the Strugatsky brothers that wrote that novel, and it was about aliens- Going past Earth, stop like a roadside picnic, leave their debris,

and then

us humans are trying to figure out what the debris does.

And there was like this kind of device there, this kind of wish, wish machine, I guess, that it would make anything you want come true. And people would go out into the [00:55:00] field, and you would hire someone, and they’d go out and try to find new artifacts. So it was really… It was a really good book where you had alien…

They, they visited, but it wasn’t really confirmed, and they didn’t communicate with them. So you also had this story in there where kind of, you know, that was one of the things that you also

[00:55:17] nick: in

[00:55:18] joe: time, so,

[00:55:19] nick: It’s

[00:55:20] joe: happening

[00:55:21] georgia: Do you

got a- That wasn’t me.

Oh.

I was away

[00:55:21] joe: wasn’t me.

Oh.

[00:55:23] Chris_G: away from the

[00:55:24] nick: the

[00:55:24] Chris_G: why

[00:55:24] joe: like, it was like, all right. It was my turn. What’s happening

[00:55:25] nick: I don’t know why

you look at

[00:55:26] Chris_G: me.

Yeah, this won’t happen. Oh. This won’t

happen.

[00:55:30] georgia: It was

[00:55:30] Mary: like,

[00:55:30] nick: love-

[00:55:31] Chris_G: Cleared my throat there. I’m sorry.

[00:55:33] georgia: What’s happening here? You- I think of, like- Yeah … I know he’s not an alien, I mean, he’s a robot, but I- Iron Giant.

[00:55:38] joe: Yeah, you can see that.

[00:55:39] georgia: a very similar- Mm-hmm … kind of story.

[00:55:42] joe: yeah. The humanity. It’s finding your humanity and- Yeah.

[00:55:46] Chris_G: Mm-hmm, yeah.

[00:55:46] joe: Kind of- Or your- …putting

a spotlight

on that, I think- Right … To your point. , Mary, you were Area touching on this a little bit I think.

Mm-hmm. Is that how do we find, see ourselves, hold a mirror up to society- Mm-hmm … and that’s reflected via [00:56:00] these alien. ‘Cause the Iron Giant was an alien, technically, ’cause it came from somewhere else. It wasn’t Earth… Well, we assume it wasn’t a terrestrial creation and it came down, and it did that, so

[00:56:12] Mary: our attitudes towards aliens, you know, reflect how we feel about, you know, the stranger and the anxiety and the panic around that.

[00:56:20] joe: And- There’s a movie, Planet 51, right? Isn’t that, Erie 51. Erie f- Or the one, the animated one.

[00:56:25] nick: Oh, no, not the one I’m thinking

of. Oh,

[00:56:27] georgia: Tera.

There was that,

[00:56:28] joe: There was a Battle for Terra, right?

Um,

Then you had, that was, like, Avatar animated.

[00:56:32] georgia: Which one are you talking about? The- It

[00:56:34] joe: It was, like, Area for the little aliens. I think it was Planet 51

[00:56:37] nick: I was thinking of District 9, actually.

[00:56:39] joe: District 9?

[00:56:40] nick: Which- Yeah … they were just enslaved aliens. Well,

[00:56:43] joe: was

totally

[00:56:44] nick: not enslaved, but like- Like immigrant

[00:56:46] joe: Alien Nation.

Came out somewhere in the early ’80s. I wanna say ’84-ish, ’85.

[00:56:52] Mary: TV series, by the way

[00:56:53] joe: the, the movie was really good also. Yeah.

[00:56:55] Mary: Yeah,

[00:56:56] Chris_G: I get that confused with V.

[00:56:58] joe: Oh,

V. Yes, Yeah.

[00:56:59] Mary: Now [00:57:00] That’s a

that’s

[00:57:00] joe: now that was one that

left some scars,

[00:57:02] Chris_G: Oh,

yes. with

V. As long as

[00:57:04] joe: they Live, right?

‘Cause They Live, V, you had that, that you don’t know,

you know, it was

[00:57:09] Chris_G: brought us Robert Englund, too.

[00:57:11] Mary: Yeah, that’s true.

I remember him from the TV ser- or from the mini-series and the TV series. So I wasn’t really that s- I wasn’t really that scared of him

[00:57:21] Chris_G: Yeah. He was a

[00:57:22] joe: a nice-

[00:57:22] Mary: remembered him being just a cuddle bug.

[00:57:24] Chris_G: He was a sweet guy

in

[00:57:26] Mary: a sweet, absolute sweetheart in V

[00:57:28] Chris_G: Until he wasn’t.

[00:57:29] Mary: Yeah.

[00:57:30] joe: Yeah. Well,

[00:57:30] Mary: you know, everyone gets pushed beyond their limits Even

[00:57:33] joe: got pushed.

[00:57:34] georgia: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:57:34] Mary: So but you know what, there was another … I, and I haven’t s- well, it’s gets touched on a little bit when we talk about E.T., but Peter Pan is, has an enormous influence on this movie in my opinion

[00:57:46] georgia: on

This movie, in my opinion. Okay. How

[00:57:49] joe: how so,

please?

Well, the,

Well-

It

[00:57:53] Chris_G: it,

[00:57:54] Mary: it start,

especially at, when you get to the end, you realize, oh, you know, it’s E- ET is [00:58:00] asking him if he, “Will you come with me?”

And he’s like, “No I have to stay here.” You know, there’s this idea that, , there was, to fly away and just live in this perpetual fantasy world. But no, he, you know, he has responsibilities here on Earth. The flying through the sky, that kind of thing. The, the lost boys, you know, join them in the bike ride.

You know, that kind of thing. When mom is reading to Gertie,, “Clap hard if you believe in fairies.” just a little illusion there. But y- you don’t really see adults as much. You know, this is the, this is a world of children. And- Very much … but, and it’s assumed to be temporary. This is a this is just a, like a, just a moment in time.

[00:58:46] Chris_G: a

stop. Yeah,

[00:58:47] Mary: That, yeah, that we don’t, and we’re not going to revisit this again. You know, like ET leaving and going into the shape.

[00:58:53] georgia: losing innocence?

Yeah. Interesting.

[00:58:55] Mary: Yeah.

yeah, he’s like putting, yeah, this is, like, the end of one part of his [00:59:00] childhood. And ET has healed him in more than one way.

In a m-

[00:59:04] nick: killed him in more than one way.

[00:59:07] Mary: All right.

[00:59:07] joe: The healing

[00:59:08] Chris_G: me…

I’m

[00:59:09] nick: That was-

[00:59:09] joe: the healing

[00:59:10] Mary: But

[00:59:10] joe: hand-waving.

The

[00:59:12] Chris_G: the idea that he-

[00:59:12] joe: Fingerwavium. A

[00:59:16] Chris_G: A subset.

[00:59:18] georgia: Yeah,

[00:59:19] Mary: that, you, yeah, we rarely see adults. You know, adults are, , from the waist down. But the, the whole movie is like a celebration of childhood, but it’s also exploring the pain that this family is having, the the pain of these chi- these children trying to figure out why the adults in their lives are, have upended it.

[00:59:37] joe: And he-

[00:59:38] Mary: And he-

[00:59:39] georgia: that makes… Yeah. Yeah.

[00:59:40] Mary: And so it just, it’s just a, it’s a celebration of, like, just the ephemerality of this, this moment, and he’s healed at the end of

[00:59:48] georgia: I think of that like, and I’m sorry, I don’t remember his character’s name, but Peter Coyote again.

[00:59:54] Chris_G: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:55] Mary: Yeah. I don’t think Nerfada had anything. He was a scientist

[00:59:57] georgia: remember when he was talking, he goes…

And he was [01:00:00] alluding to his own childhood and

[01:00:02] Mary: Oh, when he was

[01:00:03] georgia: that. Yeah.

And I think that, yeah.

[01:00:06] Mary: Oh, that’s right. I forgot

[01:00:07] Chris_G: about

that He came to me, too. That was- also- Yeah. He came to me, too. Yeah. You know?

[01:00:10] georgia: what

[01:00:10] joe: like a callback to Close Encounters.

Little bit. Yeah. You had that. When I watched that, ’cause I watched- Yeah … we watched ET, and then I watched Close Encounters, and I thought about some of those scenes and what he was talking about. It was like, oh, he got visited. And then it was like, oh, if you watch Close Encounters, there was that, where people had these visions.

And there was a scene in that movie where it was like, there could be many people who aren’t watching TV and see the mountain, and then they’re coming to that, but they have these feelings that they’ve been visited, and they have seen something. So he could’ve been one of the younger people who’ve seen that- Mm-hmm

and couldn’t put it in context. And then

[01:00:45] Chris_G: when

[01:00:46] joe: when ET comes, he, this is what led his career, his involvement in the sciences potentially- Yeah … in looking for extraterrestrial life. And then here it is, and it’s like, you know what? And that’s the [01:01:00] only reason I think- They would’ve given him, , that clear the room, let him have…

I was m- poking fun of that, but I was thinking that he was at that point. But I think on the other hand you have this incredible specimen There was no way.

I

just think

[01:01:15] Chris_G: that

[01:01:16] joe: It just wouldn’t, it wouldn’t happen that way.

[01:01:18] Chris_G: The science doesn’t work for

[01:01:19] joe: right, yeah.

It would come in- That’s right … and they would …be “

like, Nope we’re shutting this all down. Little boy, oh, you wanna go along? We’re taking you for some studies also because it’s like you’ve been linked to an alien now.”

[01:01:30] Chris_G: when he dies-

[01:01:31] Mary: Yeah.

[01:01:32] joe: Yeah

spoiler,

[01:01:33] Chris_G: sorry.

[01:01:33] Mary: Yeah.

[01:01:34] Chris_G: he comes right back. He comes right back. That’s right.

[01:01:36] nick: back.

[01:01:36] joe: That’s right. And you know

[01:01:37] Chris_G: you know because the indicator

[01:01:38] joe: Why don’t,

[01:01:39] Chris_G: mean why are we doing-

of the BS- … human- … geranium

[01:01:41] joe: things on

an alien? I mean, it’s like let’s push, you know, you know, da, let’s do this. Like Georgia said, they had real doctors in there doing stuff, but it was like, it’s an alien.

What, how do we know classic sci-fi and Mars Attacks pokes holes in this, where it’s like, “You know what we know about the aliens.” you know, so Starship [01:02:00] Troopers, it’s like all of a sudden you have this whole playbook about the aliens’ biology and what they can do from a, a, you know, brief, a brief encounter.

Like, you know what, I think it’s like these are the male parts and these are the female parts and da. So-

[01:02:11] Chris_G: the aspirator

[01:02:12] joe: right yeah.

[01:02:12] Chris_G: on the nose.

We’re giving that’s right, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Do we that’s

[01:02:15] joe: where

[01:02:15] Mary: Where’s the chest? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,

[01:02:17] Chris_G: It was

[01:02:17] joe: just glowing a second ago.

I

mean, it’s kind of- I think and all ashen. You

know, it’s like a-

When

[01:02:23] Mary: E.T. dies I’m wondering, , like I’m looking back at it thinking, “Well, we don’t, we know so little about their biology. Maybe this is kinda like a de- defense mechanism.” Right. Maybe his species can play dead to such an extent that, you know, they, he looks dead.

[01:02:39] joe: And that’s real. That’s- you

know? They’re real, there’s real organisms

that do that, that can go into stasis. You have like the tardigrades. They can- Yeah … g- they can go down- Water bears …

[01:02:46] georgia: They were trying to be

[01:02:48] joe: You have the wood frogs that in the Arctic they can actually f- over freeze and then come, be

revived.

Right. So you have these, Playing-

You do have organisms that do, I mean, right, you

also,

playing possum. Right.

So

you,

[01:02:59] nick: that could [01:03:00] have also backfired real hard on them. Like-

[01:03:02] joe: I think

[01:03:02] nick: would

they could have just been like-

[01:03:04] Chris_G: Instant dissection …

[01:03:05] nick: dead. Let’s start cutting in. Let’s

figure out what’s in

[01:03:07] joe: didn’t

[01:03:07] georgia: Let’s start cutting in. Let’s do it. But Joe, remember the whole DNA thing, and then they talked about his DNA. Yeah. And then they showed the computer screen, and then they

showed

[01:03:15] Mary: he has more DNA

or

[01:03:17] georgia: it was like-

[01:03:17] joe: Something about- Nucleotides … something

about nu- yeah, it was

[01:03:19] Chris_G: yeah, it

[01:03:19] georgia: then they were separating,

[01:03:20] Chris_G: him. But I was like- Six nucleotides-

[01:03:22] joe: I was like

[01:03:23] Chris_G: But I was like- … instead of a mere four like us mortals here. Yeah.

[01:03:25] joe: I don’t, yes, that’s right. The

ATCG. They don’t

[01:03:27] Chris_G: name the extra

[01:03:28] georgia: And then you could see on the screen them

[01:03:30] joe: like,

[01:03:30] nick: a- So they did

get DNA samples, yes?

[01:03:33] Chris_G: Element. Like Fifth Element- They’re gonna make new ones?

[01:03:36] nick: Yeah,

[01:03:36] georgia: and, They’re gonna make new ones?

Yeah. Yeah, like- Jurassic Park … they-

[01:03:38] Chris_G: gonna have a backyard

[01:03:39] joe: full of gremlins You know?

[01:03:40] Chris_G: and ETs.

[01:03:41] nick: and ETs. Well, I was actually going if they start going the Jurassic Park route and start,

[01:03:45] georgia: know-

Oh Yeah.

[01:03:47] joe: I was thinking of Fifth Element and the Mimo groups. We got

[01:03:49] nick: got- … all this

[01:03:50] joe: They got

all these Mimo, which means nothing. It was like, “What are you talking about?” But we were talking about some movies, and I did have a few others that I thought about here.

Killer Klowns [01:04:00] from Outer Space. I’m going to the ’80s. Yay. The Hidden also

[01:04:03] Mary: I haven’t seen that one.

[01:04:04] Chris_G: I haven’t

[01:04:04] nick: I don’t know that.

[01:04:05] Chris_G: Cocoon

[01:04:05] joe: in ’85

[01:04:06] Mary: yeah.

[01:04:07] joe: Which I think, you know, we were just watching The Bourgh which I think had

some callback to that. The Wally Wolodarsky series

I loved it

[01:04:12] georgia: Flight of

[01:04:12] nick: it,

[01:04:13] joe: so you know Flight of the Navigator.

[01:04:15] nick: What?

[01:04:16] joe: What? Which was Flight of the Navigator,

oh, in ’86. It was like a boy, he was abducted, and then he comes back and then it’s a time dilation thing where he come… Yeah, so it’s a good movie. It’s solid. So, like a good E.T.-inspired kind of movie there.

[01:04:33] Mary: Mean-

[01:04:34] joe: there’s also Mac and Me, but only Nick enjoys that.

[01:04:37] Chris_G: That movie has been

[01:04:38] georgia: named

[01:04:38] nick: times

can you police that? That

[01:04:40] Chris_G: times more than it should be. Yes.

[01:04:42] joe: Did you

[01:04:43] Chris_G: hear,

[01:04:43] Mary: Do you like-

[01:04:44] joe: a

thing with no, Steven Spielberg …

[01:04:45] Mary: you like

[01:04:46] joe: ask him- Do you watch Mac and Me? No, I do not. No. Do

not

[01:04:48] Mary: I

[01:04:48] nick: Thank you for

[01:04:48] Chris_G: trying to set

him

[01:04:49] Mary: up … I was like, I do, I

[01:04:51] joe: Spielberg says,

he goes, they ask him, “Oh, do you ever consider legal action against Mac and Me?”

and He jokingly said,

“I don’t

want to get blamed for [01:05:00] making anyone watch it in order to make a

complaint.” Nope.

[01:05:02] nick: make a complaint.”

That was

[01:05:05] Chris_G: he’s not wrong.

But yeah, the

[01:05:06] joe: Coca-Cola revi- Yeah … I

mean, talk about

pi- but the Coca-Cola revived the alien. Like, it was like a

thing. So as much handwavium

as that, as E.T. but yeah, it was one of those things that was really,

[01:05:17] Mary: I tried to watch it on

[01:05:18] joe: did watch it. We, I

did watch

[01:05:20] Mary: it’s pretty unwatchable

[01:05:21] joe: yeah. With the giant- Yeah. I don’t know why we watched it. We-

[01:05:23] georgia: Oh, God, I don’t know

[01:05:25] joe: I

never saw it,

and it was that joke with, With oh the one- Paul Rudd …

Paul Rudd, that’s right, on, on a

[01:05:29] nick: Conan O’Brien

[01:05:30] joe: goes on and he shows the wheelchair scene.

[01:05:33] nick: Yeah. And I

[01:05:35] joe: I was

like, “You know, I never watched this movie. Let’s watch

Mac and Me.”

[01:05:37] nick: That’s

the

exact

reason. ‘Cause I’m- That is the only reason people see that film … so

[01:05:42] georgia: I love that M- that Mary was gonna hold her tongue- Yeah … if Joe said that

[01:05:47] joe: that

he No.

I was like, “Wait

[01:05:48] Chris_G: a s- ” I mean-

[01:05:49] joe: …E.T. is, like, barely better than Mac and I’m joking. I am joking

about that.

[01:05:52] Mary: to f-

[01:05:53] joe: actually, I actually- Chris is gonna choke me to death. choke me

[01:05:55] nick: to death.

[01:05:55] Mary: to dabble in it? Well, ’cause you kept mentioning it, and I thought, “Well, maybe this is a movie you like b-

[01:05:59] joe: a rise [01:06:00] out it.

[01:06:00] georgia: Maybe he r- Have a ride about it …maybe he really

[01:06:01] joe: rise.

[01:06:01] Chris_G: I’m an easy target.

[01:06:02] nick: I’m fine.

[01:06:03] Mary: Okay. But Chris, you were looking at your phone. What was, you

had

[01:06:06] Chris_G: some other

[01:06:06] joe: were you actually

[01:06:07] Mary: No,

[01:06:07] nick: No, but you

[01:06:08] Mary: No, but you had

[01:06:09] joe: No, but- He’s going to the Mac and Me. convention

[01:06:10] Chris_G: No, not in a bad way No, no, no, no, no, no … like you might be.

[01:06:11] georgia: No.

[01:06:12] joe: Mac and Me. Exactly. The Mac and Me podcast.

[01:06:13] Chris_G: Me podcast. No, we were ta-

[01:06:13] joe: get there? It’s gonna

[01:06:14] Chris_G: How in the world did we get there?

[01:06:17] Mary: Yeah.

[01:06:17] nick: That’s gonna be our next episode with you,

[01:06:18] georgia: right Chris? At o-

[01:06:19] Chris_G: you, right, Joe?

[01:06:19] Mary: Chris?

I’ll be calling in dead. Okay? All right.

[01:06:22] Chris_G: I’m gonna phone that one in. Yeah,

[01:06:24] joe: Are you gonna

phone

[01:06:25] Chris_G: be me in person.

[01:06:26] joe: he actually

says home phone first, right? Almost in a Yoda kinda like. He says home phone, and they correct it to phone home. Yeah. And most people think just phone home, but he actually said home phone. So

[01:06:36] Chris_G: He says both. He

[01:06:37] joe: both … he does say both.

That’s right, yep.

[01:06:38] Chris_G: We were talking a second about when E.T. died, and Nick alluded to the fact that could’ve gone dark real bad. They could’ve started the autopsy right then- Right … in front of

[01:06:47] nick: the-

I would’ve

[01:06:48] Chris_G: I would’ve. We know you would’ve, Nick.

You might not have

waited.

[01:06:52] joe: no. we- He would,

[01:06:53] nick: You know we got one, let’s just… It had become an alien. There you go.

[01:06:55] joe: into Elliott too. Like, “You

know what? Let’s,

[01:06:57] Mary: We’re so We’re sorry, Simon. What an odd parallel though, [01:07:00] because a bit before that, in the classroom scene with all the

Oh,

[01:07:06] joe: that’s right.

[01:07:06] Chris_G: man Yeah … they just put a cotton ball of chloroform in there, and he’s gonna go to sleep.

The p- the- Yep … teacher’s explaining.

[01:07:15] joe: feel no pain, yeah

[01:07:16] Chris_G: And they’re gonna cut these frogs open, and he says, “One of the things you’re gonna notice, that heart will still be beating.” Would that go down in 2026, where you’re cutting open live

[01:07:27] joe: I will see, I will say

[01:07:29] Chris_G: No, it would not.

[01:07:30] joe: I will say when I was in college, in Bio 102, I think it was the practicum You would go station to station and you had to answer questions. There was a question, like, how many chambers does a frog heart have? And you looked into the open chest of the frog, and the heart was still beating

[01:07:49] Mary: Mm-hmm.

[01:07:51] joe: then I was like, “Oh, that’s one, two, three.” So that was,

it

was very

helpful that, ’cause you get, you can watch the

beating.

Yeah. But yeah,

[01:07:58] georgia: two, three … I actually [01:08:00] love that scene- sorry … where he lets all the frogs out.

[01:08:02] joe: little dark.

[01:08:03] georgia: And then they kiss, and it was

just like,

[01:08:05] Chris_G: all the frogs go. Yeah. Yeah. And then they kiss, and it was just like, It turns out Spielberg actually

did that

when he was in school. He secretly let all the

frogs

[01:08:11] georgia: love that. So 30,

[01:08:12] Chris_G: 30,

40 years later, he went ahead and did that.

And by the way, little bit of trivia,

[01:08:17] joe: Nick,

[01:08:18] Chris_G: The little blonde girl that he kisses

[01:08:20] joe: That’s right

[01:08:20] Chris_G: that’s Erika Eleniak. 30 years later, she would jump out of a cake in Under Siege. I

[01:08:28] joe: gonna say, now, is that in Under Siege? Yeah, wow. Yeah, that’s a… She was the Playmate of the Year in that movie,

[01:08:34] georgia: Not in ET. No, in, in Under Siege. I

[01:08:35] joe: No, in, in Under

[01:08:37] Chris_G: Siege.

[01:08:37] joe: I-

[01:08:37] nick: would hope not, Georgia.

[01:08:39] Chris_G: the no, they had the- We’re gonna make a real distinction

[01:08:42] joe: No. Why are you gonna share people that- No. What, was she purring next to you or… Yeah. That’s a

pre-episode callback, but

yeah, no.

[01:08:51] Chris_G: yeah,

[01:08:52] joe: Wow, that’s

a…

Thank

[01:08:53] nick: something up on your phone there? I

[01:08:54] joe: if

[01:08:54] Chris_G: sense to anyone listening.

[01:08:57] nick: you got going on?

[01:08:58] georgia: No, I don’t know, like, if [01:09:00] Joe remembers, I did the monologue about Tamara, you know.

[01:09:04] joe: Yeah. Oh, you can- let people know.

[01:09:06] georgia: yeah, do you remember that?

[01:09:08] joe: I don’t know. So I

[01:09:10] nick: Man, that sounded right. I

[01:09:14] joe: know. Let me, add this in. Yes, I know exactly.

[01:09:18] georgia: but- Man, that sounded great … all right. I know. Let me- … let me listen. Okay. Yeah, I know exactly. The power of editing. No, I’m kidding.

[01:09:21] nick: So I did a

[01:09:23] georgia: a monologue about this woman who played E.T.

She was she was…

[01:09:30] Mary: was…

[01:09:30] georgia: had

dwarfism.

Right. And she was only

[01:09:32] joe: 31

[01:09:33] georgia: 31

inches tall, and she actually played in the ET suit.

But then they weren’t even gonna give… And it was her and this other, this boy

[01:09:42] Chris_G: a few people …

[01:09:43] joe: was three. yeah,

I think three people.

[01:09:45] georgia: And the boy had no legs. Yeah. That was- Yeah … and they weren’t even, wasn’t even gonna give them credit on the… And I think some, something happened. I did notice that they, that her name was in the credits.

Mm-hmm. But Armistead Maupin [01:10:00] was her good friend. Oh,

[01:10:01] Mary: Oh, really?

[01:10:02] georgia: he wrote the book Maybe the Moon, and it’s based on her and about, about her.

[01:10:07] Mary: Oh, I didn’t know that. Oh,

[01:10:09] joe: So I had, um… It

was,

[01:10:10] Mary: of the City is just, yeah, it’s a

[01:10:12] georgia: fantastic. I love him so much.

[01:10:14] Mary: series is great. Anyway,

[01:10:15] joe: in my notes I had Matthew, the, Merritt was the born without legs and walked on his hands for the stumbling scenes.

Mm-hmm. And then Pat Billon was the other one, along with Tamara De Threa, Treau,

what’s, You know what? The French name, like-

[01:10:29] georgia: and it’s a French name that I-

[01:10:30] joe: T-R-E-A-U-X. Yeah. Someone who

speaks French can…

I was gonna say- I don’t know what’s going on over there. Something’s

happening You know exactly what’s going

what. I know something’s happening.

but I…

Mary had brought up War- War of the Worlds, and then we were talking about E.T. being on Earth.

[01:10:54] georgia: I don’t, no,

[01:10:54] Mary: I don’t…

[01:10:55] joe: I don’t… I’m

not looking over there.

[01:10:56] nick: I’ve

already sent it to you, don’t worry … it was,

[01:10:57] joe: is

that the… Okay.

[01:10:58] Chris_G: It’ll

[01:10:59] nick: in the show

[01:10:59] joe: notes.

but that

[01:11:00] was the idea

that, though, interacting with our, you know, some of the handwavium there is that you had E.T.

came, and he could breathe our air almost like he was, naturally fit in, eat our food, metabo- I mean, maybe that’s why he got sick. I don’t know. He was eating a

lot of junk.

But you, you had- Of course …but

in War of the Worlds, you had the alien invasion was stopped because of Earth’s microbes that affected them, right?

So that probably , could that be one of the things that caused him to be sick- Mm-hmm … was that. But then he healed. I mean, that’s, see, this is where you get into the, the plot holes, and he was sick, he’s dying, and then all of a sudden, he’s, , revived.

[01:11:36] georgia: wasn’t the whole point was when he separated from Elliot that he was-

[01:11:40] joe: I think the whole point was that, I got to this earlier, was that he was really a scout, and it wasn’t phone home and all that. They were coming back anyway.

[01:11:50] Chris_G: were all connected.

[01:11:51] joe: yeah. And I think

they- were

[01:11:52] Chris_G: they heard a noise, all their hearts were in sync.

Once he got left,

[01:11:57] joe: Interesting

[01:11:58] Chris_G: point, hot take perhaps, [01:12:00] he linked with the first life form that he came around- He did link with a deer … and it was Elliott that

[01:12:06] joe: it was deer. He, deer, there was all sorts of woodland animals that he came in contact with. Why wouldn’t he link with one of those?

[01:12:13] nick: ‘Cause they’re not at our l-

[01:12:15] Mary: I don’t know

[01:12:15] Chris_G: links with a deer-

[01:12:16] joe: I I’m

[01:12:17] Chris_G: is a four-minute movie.

[01:12:18] joe: Well, I mean,

[01:12:19] Chris_G: That’s- I haven’t even started my popcorn yet, Joe.

[01:12:23] joe: I’m just saying, though. I mean,

that’s, why

[01:12:25] Chris_G: not?

[01:12:26] joe: why

wouldn’t he link with one of those, right?

[01:12:29] nick: That was great. Can E.T. turn invisible?

[01:12:30] Chris_G: Why

[01:12:31] joe: Why

not the plants? That’s-

[01:12:32] Mary: sounds like a riveting

[01:12:33] joe: and the

[01:12:34] Mary: movie. Okay.

[01:12:35] joe: collecting them like they, they love them,

[01:12:37] Chris_G: right? Because Henry Thomas was already signed on. I mean, what do you want me to say? Groot.

[01:12:42] joe: They got Groot there.

[01:12:43] nick: Can he turn

[01:12:44] joe: am

[01:12:44] Chris_G: I agree. Can he what?

[01:12:46] nick: Can E.T. turn invisible?

[01:12:47] joe: Invisible.

[01:12:49] nick: Yes, ’cause in the shack

[01:12:51] georgia: then he would’ve needed the sheet.

What

[01:12:53] joe: he

[01:12:53] nick: he would’ve needed the sheet. What the- Where- No. No, because when he was

in the shack,

he was there

still.

So- But they, all those guys-

[01:12:59] Chris_G: love that [01:13:00] your big answer is, “Then he would not have needed the sheet. Next.

[01:13:04] nick: Back to you.

[01:13:05] Chris_G: What?

[01:13:06] joe: those

[01:13:07] nick: What?

‘Cause what? All those boys went in the shed with the knives, and they didn’t see him?

[01:13:12] Chris_G: was

[01:13:12] joe: The

footprints led out, though. I think E.T. had

[01:13:14] nick: No, his, after they walked away, his hand clings to the corner

[01:13:19] joe: the corner

[01:13:20] Chris_G: He’s really good at hide and

[01:13:22] nick: He must be able to turn invisible. Have

[01:13:23] Chris_G: he’s a champion

[01:13:25] joe: you ever send a kid for something and

they like, “I don’t see it.”

It’s

like-

“It’s right there.

[01:13:29] georgia: being in the closet? He would’ve pretended

to be a doll if he could just make himself

[01:13:34] joe: Yeah. He’s not

The Predator yet.

[01:13:35] georgia: Come on, Nick.

[01:13:36] Chris_G: That got such a

[01:13:37] Mary: such a huge reaction when we… I still remember, like, people’s reactions in the theater.

[01:13:42] Chris_G: When they’re

[01:13:42] joe: across

[01:13:42] nick: the

[01:13:43] Chris_G: the

[01:13:43] Mary: went to the toys

huge pop. You

[01:13:44] joe: pop. You guys

are spoiling it for people. Or-

[01:13:47] Chris_G: the other one

[01:13:48] joe: the other one “

[01:13:48] Mary: I don’t like his feet.”

[01:13:50] joe: his feet.”

That

[01:13:51] Mary: That got a hu-

[01:13:51] georgia: was

[01:13:52] Chris_G: out that

[01:13:52] joe: was

[01:13:53] Chris_G: Barrymore’s

actual

response. Really? That was not written.

[01:13:56] Mary: re- Oh,

no way.

[01:13:57] georgia: I

love- “I didn’t like the feet.” I love that.

[01:13:59] Mary: Oh, that’s so[01:14:00]

[01:14:00] Chris_G: when

E.T. Is hiding in the toys.

And the mom pans across, Mm-hmm and he knows to j- I forgot this is a video. He

[01:14:09] nick: knows

[01:14:10] Chris_G: just look forward. Yeah. Like this and

[01:14:12] Mary: Not to move. Yeah … so

[01:14:13] Chris_G: That moves, yeah. So he looks like a toy. Little callback in Gremlins, by the way.

[01:14:17] nick: In

[01:14:17] Chris_G: the department store.

[01:14:20] nick: Yeah … where

[01:14:20] Chris_G: is s- where is Stripe hiding? Right behind an E.T. doll.

[01:14:24] joe: right. Oh,

Interesting. Yeah. okay.

Yep.

[01:14:27] Chris_G: He’s gotta jump back out, and it’s an E.T. doll that falls out of the way,

[01:14:31] georgia: out of the way, so. Oh, fun.

[01:14:31] joe: Fun. Interesting. There

was

[01:14:32] Chris_G: a young actor, actually, that was going to be cast as Elliott’s best friend, and he was a quirky young kid, and they thought it, it ended up being better that he didn’t have a good friend.

That he was more of a loner, and that actor, they ended up, they Spielberg said I’m gonna cut you from this. We cast you, but we’re gonna cut you. I’m gonna put you in my next movie.” And he put him in Gremlins, because it was Corey Feldman.

[01:14:57] georgia: Oh, my gosh. Oh, wow.

[01:14:59] Chris_G: And I [01:15:00] did that for Georgia.

[01:15:01] georgia: Aw.

[01:15:02] joe: it is.

Wow.

[01:15:04] Mary: is. Yeah.

[01:15:05] Chris_G: ‘Cause we spent 20 minutes on Corey Feldman the last time I was down here.

[01:15:09] Mary: time I was down here. Oh, my. So what is the most fannish Chris, what is the most fannish thing you’ve done? , well, you, besides m- making the, oh, it’s an E.T., you know, in, in, in front of a, yeah, Reese’s box. Those, we’re looking at an illustration that Chris ha- has made.

But what are what other fannish things have you, you’ve done in the name of E.T.?

[01:15:30] Chris_G: A lot of artwork. Three or four different Reese’s Pieces boxes. Mm-hmm. But the, I think as far as fanish stuff, Mary, I think I peaked in, I think I peaked in ’82. Mm-hmm. When, now I’m gonna,

[01:15:45] nick: I’m

[01:15:45] joe: gonna

educate

the,

[01:15:46] Mary: When the movie

[01:15:46] Chris_G: I was- Like

I could not go above what I did in ’82, is what I’m trying to

get at. Okay. All right.

I’m gonna educate some of the younger folks in the room

[01:15:54] joe: very that You singled out.

[01:15:56] Chris_G: This is a service that we provide. A service we provide. [01:16:00] If you did not have $1,000 to buy, and that’s relative, but if you didn’t have the means to go and buy a mask and the whole outfit, you could go to a place called JO-ANN Fabrics and they would sell patterns.

[01:16:14] joe: They

[01:16:15] Chris_G: sell an, a, a literal paper packet of patterns. You take it home, and maybe Mom is good with a sewing machine. What they had was a mannequin with a head-to-toe E.T. outfit with a little pen light in the finger.

[01:16:29] Mary: wow.

[01:16:30] Chris_G: Ooh. And

this glowy thing inside here that was a battery pack, and I saw that and I said, “Hot diggity, I am gonna be E.T.

for Halloween.” And they knew what they were doing. They saw me from a mile away. ‘Cause I mean, we had just seen it that summer, so now to put that out in August for October, hook, line, and sinker

Yeah.

[01:16:51] nick: Yeah.

[01:16:52] Chris_G: And I looked at the little packet, and the packet was selling for $1.99. My chimpanzee brain of age [01:17:00] seven equated that the costume cost $1.99.

That’s just the pattern. Oh. You then have to b- Yeah

And

a-

I wasn’t sophisticated enough to put that all together. I’m like, “It’s $1.99.”

[01:17:12] Mary: you’re seven. It’s, you’re- Yeah, I know … You’re forgiven.

[01:17:14] Chris_G: The I w- I am not forgiven, however, Mary. For what I did.

When I was told, “No, that’s not happening,” I laid down- in Jo-Ann Fabrics and had a real tantrum.

[01:17:27] Mary: Yes.

[01:17:28] Chris_G: And Pat Guzman, my mom, did what needed to be done.

[01:17:31] joe: Yep.

[01:17:31] georgia: She made it.

[01:17:32] Chris_G: She d- no.

[01:17:34] nick: not where the story goes. She took care of this five-pound, two- Right … she took care of E.T., too. Yeah. She squashed the tantrum.

Mm-hmm. She did.

Yeah. Oh,

[01:17:37] Mary: She took care of my public display. This is ’82. You’re right.

[01:17:38] Chris_G: the, she took care of my public

[01:17:40] georgia: care of my public

display. This

[01:17:41] Chris_G: She took care of

[01:17:42] joe: doesn’t sound like where

This story was going. She took care of it by- This is ’82. Yeah, right … she took care of it. yeah. This is ’82.

[01:17:43] Chris_G: She squashed

the tantrum. She did n- oh, no.

No.

[01:17:48] georgia: Oh, I really like imagining you in that costume.

[01:17:52] Chris_G: did

in that costume. Yeah. Well, the, I don’t wanna mess with your imagination.

[01:17:54] nick: She just wedgied him out of there. Yeah.

[01:17:56] joe: right.

Yeah. Yeah, she gently lifted them out- It did not- … and then made it

[01:17:59] Chris_G: [01:18:00] what happened later did not feel- … like a like a costume was being made for me.

[01:18:04] Mary: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[01:18:05] Chris_G: like a boy was being disciplined. Yeah. That he deserved.

[01:18:09] joe: I went, ’82, I went as The Thing for

Halloween.

[01:18:12] georgia: No,

you didn’t.

[01:18:13] Chris_G: you didn’t. No

[01:18:14] georgia: you didn’t. You’re

[01:18:15] Chris_G: you didn’t. He is so full. But

[01:18:18] nick: cool. But

I,

[01:18:19] joe: No, you didn’t. No, you, didn’t. So good. But, and you

raise a good point though, Chris, about merchandising.

Mm-hmm. And I wanna say that was all the, the callback was probably Star Wars ’cause that started

the merchandising for

kids. And

[01:18:31] nick: That’s what

I was gonna ask next

[01:18:33] joe: story was that Star Wars, they went around asking, like, the big toy makers at the time, and they all said no.

Like, “We don’t we don’t think so.” And Kenner took a risk. A Midwest company kind of took the, for Easy-Bake ovens and Spirograph, that’s what they were

known for,

and they said, “Sure, we’ll do it.” And they made the three and a, 3.75-inch figure that people… I mean, I had a bunch. I know Chris had a bunch and maybe

Georgia and

[01:18:59] Mary: yeah, I had [01:19:00] some.

[01:19:00] joe: Yeah. With the Darth Vader case, if you remember that

[01:19:03] Chris_G: Come on, now.

[01:19:04] nick: So did E.T. have

[01:19:05] joe: you have that.

[01:19:06] georgia: I didn’t

have any. I did

have

[01:19:07] joe: was there.

[01:19:08] Chris_G: I had the case, but I’ve got them in the

[01:19:09] georgia: didn’t have any

[01:19:10] Chris_G: I’ve got E.T. figures in the car. Yeah. I only had so many hands.

That

[01:19:13] joe: made I mean, that made Kenner where they’re at. I mean, and so they sold, like, 40 million units in 1978 alone.

Made 100 million in revenue. The prototype of Boba Fett sold at auction for 1.342 million. The most expensive toy ever sold. With the firing missile. So

that was… Yeah, so that was

[01:19:31] nick: So yeah,

[01:19:31] joe: And

so you have, and then at the same time, then you had Alien. And Alien came out, and they had toys. I actually had a Alien doll.

Um, But- it, they got sued.

The xenomorph. Yeah, xenomorph.

They, and, but they got sued because they, and parents they had to pull it off the shelves because they said it was too scary. They had facehuggers,

they had the

[01:19:51] nick: is, that’s in-

[01:19:51] joe: figure. That’s

[01:19:52] Chris_G: They had

a

point

[01:19:53] joe: yeah. That’s

[01:19:54] Mary: pretty

[01:19:54] joe: they said that they couldn’t- yeah.

that they wouldn’t do it. So when you loop all the way around,

and you

[01:19:59] nick: what was [01:20:00] their

s- lawsuit about?

[01:20:01] joe: Like- It was just kind of pull, they wanted it off the, those shelves. So they said it was just too scary, like, you know, just too hor- horrific-

[01:20:09] nick: Man, what is wrong with those people?

[01:20:11] Chris_G: people? … For our kids. See, there were Gremlin toys- Yeah … ’cause I bought them.

[01:20:13] nick: But-

And then w-

[01:20:15] joe: w- the, E.T. came out, that was the, there was a big nod to marketing, and I think that was somewhat in Spielberg’s head about this is where the money’s at, and how do I do it? So I think these, the, wimpy E.T., you know, wimpy Disney scary M&M’s, I think there was some marketing there.

And

it was

[01:20:35] Chris_G: show you how wimpy I can

[01:20:37] joe: That’s right, let’s make this cute, , very relatable big head, big eyes. Mm-hmm. People don’t, I mean, mammals, that’s what happens. That’s why little kittens are cute, because they have a, their heads are really big, and their eye- , they got the, the big eyes, the big head.

And they look very helpless, like they could barely hold

[01:20:53] nick: that

supposed to be cute.

[01:20:54] Chris_G: supposed to be cute? It is cute. You know

[01:20:56] joe: You know what? I think that

[01:20:56] Chris_G: eyes. that-

[01:20:57] georgia: about?

[01:20:58] Chris_G: I can’t stands no more.[01:21:00]

[01:21:01] nick: But that

was-

I’m not gonna say what I think

it looks like, but,

[01:21:03] Chris_G: well,

[01:21:03] joe: But

that was it. You did have

this very, both

Mary, Georgia, Chris, you guys all

mentioned that.

How emotional you

were at the- Yeah …

[01:21:13] Mary: Yeah, very much so … just

[01:21:14] joe: humanity of it all was emotionally tethering, and you guys got pulled right into that. I mean, I think that’s, and

[01:21:20] georgia: And I’m proud of it.

[01:21:22] joe: No,

you guys should all of that. No, that’s

I did, yeah. Yeah, no, that’s,

[01:21:25] nick: just rejected the love.

It’s

[01:21:27] joe: it.

That’s it. I mean, I didn’t

trust any of y’all. You guys all could be

The Thing at that

[01:21:31] Mary: thing.

[01:21:31] georgia: be a thing. I thought- Now

let’s look

at, like, some of the things that have been influenced by E.T.

The things? I was gonna say Stranger Things. You know that

had a big, huge- But, but- huge-

The, The

Stranger Things was

[01:21:44] joe: have been influenced by E.T.

The things? I was gonna say future things. Oh, okay. You know that- The Demogorgon. Well, the, no. The, the Demogorgon was influenced by

[01:21:45] georgia: Oh, geez

[01:21:47] joe: Rob Bottin and, and,

Hey,

[01:21:48] georgia: you know what, Joe? … practical effects

[01:21:49] joe: in The

Thing

and the dog scene with it splitting open the

…flesh flower.

You can’t- Um,

that’s what, they

[01:21:55] georgia: just have a little E.T.

love. You gotta

throw

[01:21:58] joe: I’m telling you The truth. I’m, I’m just saying

you go [01:22:00] back to the practical effects-

[01:22:02] georgia: in those movies. But you, but

the feeling of Stranger

Things, where

[01:22:05] Chris_G: right to the nastiest

[01:22:06] nick: creature

They all hopped on their bikes- The

[01:22:06] georgia: in that movie. And when they all hopped on their

bikes-

[01:22:09] Chris_G: hopped on their bikes- The bike

[01:22:09] joe: ride

[01:22:10] georgia: they’re riding, it’s E.T.

I mean- I think it was,

[01:22:13] joe: well,

yes.

[01:22:13] Chris_G: There’s

a little Goonies there too.

There’s a little

bit of

[01:22:16] joe: you had that.

Yeah. No, okay.

[01:22:18] Mary: Maybe that’s why I never got into Stranger Things, because I’d already seen The Goonies and I was… I felt satisfied and complete.

I didn’t need it.

[01:22:26] joe: All right. What do

we got? Okay.

Let’s say alien, let’s say alien Xenomorph versus E.T. What we got? What we putting our money on? Cage match. E.T. visits a planet. They’re going, collecting their little botanical samples,

bringing plants back to life, and there’s a

[01:22:40] Chris_G: a

[01:22:41] joe: egg face hugger, E.T.’s. What are they

doing?

[01:22:44] nick: got ETs.

[01:22:45] joe: You got E.T.’s?

[01:22:46] Chris_G: Yep. ETs can lift things from across the room. Yeah.

[01:22:49] joe: But the,

[01:22:49] Mary: know-

He has telekinesis.

[01:22:51] georgia: the

[01:22:51] joe: Alien,

you think they don’t,

[01:22:52] Mary: has healing

[01:22:53] joe: do the… Well, do they have a emotional psychic link to the al- I mean, right? The aliens don’t seem to have that.

The [01:23:00] clamp-

So are they,

[01:23:00] Chris_G: ET was lifting and spinning around in the bedroom. Once

[01:23:03] joe: get,

once you got the parasite in your gut, I mean, they lifting that out, the acid blood. I mean, you guys are going, so you guys are going E.T.’s. Yeah.

[01:23:10] Chris_G: I think ET can handle it.

[01:23:12] joe: What about- Yeah … you got E.T.? What do you got? You got your money on alien or E.T.?

[01:23:17] nick: Jeremy-

[01:23:18] Chris_G: on-

[01:23:18] joe: Georgia’s like, “I don’t wanna do this.”

[01:23:19] georgia: about just the species alien- Yeah … like just one random alien- For me … and one random ET? ‘Cause if it was ET, I

[01:23:26] Chris_G: ET,

[01:23:27] georgia: don’t know. I mean- I think, I think-

[01:23:31] Chris_G: I’m not

sure what I’m looking at over here What

[01:23:33] joe: I don’t know what’s going on.

[01:23:34] nick: that’s incredible.

[01:23:34] Chris_G: in the world?

Micah’s

[01:23:36] Mary: Nick is doing

[01:23:37] nick: Listen, I dropped my putty. Just

[01:23:40] joe: just like the-

[01:23:41] georgia: I think,

[01:23:42] joe: They just show up at

[01:23:43] Chris_G: the

[01:23:43] Mary: the idea-

[01:23:43] joe: They’re there … well,

I

[01:23:44] Mary: think the idea is like if you have something that is cute and cuddly, that-

[01:23:49] georgia: It won’t-

[01:23:50] Mary: of us just shrivel from that, I guess. I, like the idea

[01:23:54] joe: face hugger

doesn’t care how cute you are.

[01:23:56] Mary: you are

[01:23:56] nick: I mean, but look at

the eyes on

[01:23:58] joe: i-

but

[01:23:59] Mary: [01:24:00] It’s tough.

[01:24:00] nick: it’s a predator.

[01:24:01] joe: Yeah. I, I don’t know. So What… So- all right. All

right.

So How

[01:24:05] Chris_G: gonna- That

goes against everything Joe

just went

[01:24:08] joe: Joe

[01:24:09] nick: I was gonna go with Predator.

It’s

Predator

[01:24:11] joe: just witnessed.

I was gonna go with Predator. It’s Predator versus… So Predators go, they’re hunting. They… trophy hunters. Yeah. They go. Would they actually engage the ETs?

[01:24:18] Chris_G: No.

[01:24:19] joe: Because the code, right? And or would

they see the ETs …as a threat? No.

[01:24:22] Chris_G: They would be

[01:24:22] nick: I think they

[01:24:23] georgia: go fight the blank,

[01:24:24] joe: the telekinesis, that they go, “You know what?

Maybe ET’s got a, a rage in him.” And

so they

go, I mean, we don’t know

what’s happening on their

[01:24:32] nick: you don’t know

[01:24:33] Chris_G: a rageful ET.

I mean,

[01:24:34] joe: If you go, and if you know, we look at there’s humans that go out that explore, scientists. They you view an alien and you go, “Man, these humans are super friendly, super nice.

They’re

[01:24:46] nick: Look at that geek. “Studying.”

[01:24:48] joe: But

there are humans who, you know, they are, you know, the military industrial complex. So, are ETs, all the ETs like that? So would the Predators find sport in [01:25:00] ETs who are using their abilities,

fully tuned

[01:25:04] nick: they’re- For, ET’s a person- … ET Seth, Sith Lord? Seth Lord.

[01:25:09] joe: What,

[01:25:10] Chris_G: Sith lord.

[01:25:11] joe: y- yes.

[01:25:12] nick: So what,

[01:25:13] joe: So

let’s say the

[01:25:14] Mary: are so, some of us are so broken that we just can’t watch a heartwarming movie without going, “And then they died, and then they blew up, and then

[01:25:23] joe: they Predators versus-

[01:25:25] Mary: and,

[01:25:25] joe: murdered.” …

ET, right?

[01:25:26] nick: I’m like- Anyway. You know

there was violence in the movie, right?

Like you, True …you- watched this too. …

[01:25:30] georgia: too.

[01:25:31] joe: But I, let’s-

Or were they

not, or

were they, would they actually-

[01:25:34] Mary: If I

[01:25:34] joe: go invisible like

[01:25:35] Chris_G: I am clutching my popcorn bucket so hard right now, Mary.

[01:25:39] Mary: Yeah, I know.

[01:25:40] Chris_G: Well-

Just look at yourself I’m like, “Dad.”

[01:25:42] joe: you’re staying with ET, right? You’re-

[01:25:43] nick: Well,

[01:25:44] Mary: the id- okay, let’s talk about how, well, if we’re gonna talk about Predator, let’s talk about how great Prey is. Okay, that is

[01:25:50] Chris_G: Oh,

[01:25:51] joe: would that- Yeah, that was good. that-

[01:25:52] Mary: that movie- Why are

[01:25:53] nick: are

we jumping

[01:25:54] georgia: really good.

But then that could be, oh- It’s

[01:25:55] Mary: we’re

[01:25:55] nick: great

[01:25:56] Mary: gonna talk about Predator, we’re just

[01:25:58] georgia: We’ve already gone down that [01:26:00] hole “

[01:26:00] Mary: After you watch The Thing, go and put

[01:26:02] joe: they were there, They were there.

[01:26:03] Mary: They were there. Prey

[01:26:03] joe: hunting bears- Bear. They were hunting. Yeah.

So I, I, that, that almost goes to the point that maybe they would still hunt ETs, because they are a challenge. The psychic link, like, if you can…

If you’re a predator and you can withstand the psychic

[01:26:18] Mary: I think the predators would laugh their ass off if you showed up with an ET.

They would be like, “What the fuck, man?”

[01:26:23] joe: be like, “The fuck? Am I just- I, I don’t know.

[01:26:24] Chris_G: I think it

would be,

I think

[01:26:26] joe: it’d be a harder kill than

you’re giving them credit for.

[01:26:28] nick: I 100% agree

with that.

[01:26:30] Chris_G: that- I, I think that-

[01:26:30] joe: ETs would be a

tough takedown.

[01:26:32] nick: don’t

[01:26:32] georgia: the pred- I don’t

know. You’re talking about how soft-

[01:26:34] nick: not

[01:26:35] Chris_G: sure the Predators would engage. You’re talking about

[01:26:37] georgia: You’re talking about how soft and Disney-like ET is, and now all of a sudden you have him winning

[01:26:42] joe: think I said they were soft and Disney-like.

[01:26:44] georgia: Disney-like.

Yes, you did. I said, you know- You said it was, like, nothing special.

[01:26:47] Mary: the CEO of Columbia You said it was like nothing special. That’s true.

[01:26:48] georgia: You said it was

nothing special- I-

[01:26:49] joe: special

is different.

[01:26:51] nick: You said it

was

nothing special. Well, nothing special is definitely- It was like- Yeah you’re crossing streams here.

[01:26:52] joe: you are…

you’re… You

gotta

re-listen to the

[01:26:55] Chris_G: episode.

[01:26:56] Mary: there’s something so magical, too, about just the experience [01:27:00] of watching ET, or especially when I was a kid and watching it in the theater.

It’s just, it was just… It really was. It was, you know, it, not a lot of plot.

[01:27:10] joe: It was-

it was… No,

[01:27:11] Mary: wa-

No,

[01:27:12] georgia: it w- No.

[01:27:14] nick: you

[01:27:14] Chris_G: Well, you

know, what?

[01:27:15] georgia: there are

[01:27:15] Mary: are other movies, like Once Upon a Time in Hollywood doesn’t have a lot of plot, and it’s a fantastic movie. Some movies are not plot heavy, and

[01:27:23] Chris_G: to be and they’re

still good. It’s- Clerks? Clerks. Sure. Of

[01:27:28] Mary: Clerks. Sure, of course.

[01:27:30] nick: I mean, there’s no real plot

there, and it’s a fantastic-

[01:27:33] Chris_G: But- It’s crazy It was a feeling

with like-

[01:27:34] georgia: I- See, I, it- It was a feeling.

[01:27:34] Mary: you

get

[01:27:35] georgia: a, like, yeah … it

[01:27:36] Mary: up in the magic of it. You know? Like

[01:27:38] Chris_G: I agree with you.

[01:27:39] Mary: Oh, it’s just, it… There’s something’s just so special about this family. You start with this family in chaos, and… No, I’m just like-

[01:27:48] nick: also

[01:27:48] Chris_G: It’s just you and

[01:27:49] Mary: Yeah, it’s just… Yeah, that’s right.

[01:27:51] Chris_G: right. I don’t know what’s

[01:27:52] joe: right. That’s it. There’s purring- What? … purring on. my

[01:27:53] Chris_G: but I also think…

[01:27:55] Mary: I

don’t know. I th- I just think that you’re just broken people

[01:27:58] joe: I’m not broken at all. I’m [01:28:00] a realist.

[01:28:00] Mary: Right

[01:28:01] joe: So I’m just I, I’m a, the

[01:28:02] Chris_G: in a- and and

[01:28:03] Mary: i- if there’s like, if you have like a tender feeling, it must immediately be squashed and

[01:28:08] Chris_G: have- Yeah.

[01:28:08] joe: What do you have then

in this whole scenario? The ET… I mean, they’re traveling around the galaxy, and they’re gonna

[01:28:14] Mary: and they’re gonna encounter- Mm-hmm …

[01:28:14] joe: Other species. So what happens when they encounter The Thing?

[01:28:18] Mary: happens when they encounter the Thing? Yeah,

[01:28:19] joe: well,

Are they done? Were they-

[01:28:21] Chris_G: do I know that E.T. isn’t The

[01:28:23] nick: that

thing?

[01:28:23] Mary: right. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:28:24] joe: E.T., now he’s infected all of us. He

got Blair there. We

[01:28:27] Chris_G: get a sequel, E.T. is a sequel. Is the sequel. There

[01:28:30] georgia: Larry, I

[01:28:31] Chris_G: think that’s-

It was their

[01:28:31] joe: It was their

[01:28:32] georgia: where we should end this.

[01:28:33] Chris_G: and

[01:28:33] Mary: where we should end this.

[01:28:34] joe: It was their

ship

that crash landed, and they, you know, that’s what they harvested, so.

[01:28:39] georgia: Mic drop. Well, let’s just, that’s it.

[01:28:41] joe: Yeah. All right.

[01:28:43] Mary: right. Yeah.

[01:28:43] joe: You guys are done. Did we get

anywhere on that?

[01:28:45] Mary: no. Not really.

[01:28:46] Chris_G: Wow.

[01:28:48] Mary: No the, so what do you have any other thoughts on ET that we haven’t talked about yet, Chris?

[01:28:51] Chris_G: It’s a feel-good movie.

It was one of the first summer blockbusters that I ever experienced.

[01:28:58] joe: true.

[01:28:59] Chris_G: I mean, Star [01:29:00] Wars really is what started that in ’77, but I was two. yeah.

[01:29:05] joe: yeah.

[01:29:06] Chris_G: I, I had a, a much I, I had a very padded childhood as opposed to my friend, Dr. Joe. My parents actually took an active interest in what I was watching.

[01:29:17] joe: My

parents did, too. It just, there was just,

you know. I enjoyed The Thing, man

[01:29:22] nick: What?

[01:29:23] Chris_G: I’ve never heard

[01:29:24] nick: heard

you say

[01:29:24] joe: saw Poltergeist The Thing. I saw Po- I mean, yeah. Yeah.

Anyway.

[01:29:30] Chris_G: Loved

it. I also read, there, there was a book.

[01:29:32] Mary: Oh, yeah. William Kotzwinkle wrote it

[01:29:34] Chris_G: There was a really great book.

It was a novelization of what happened afterwards.

[01:29:39] joe: Oh. Okay, Okay.

I mean, E.T.?

Yeah. Oh,

[01:29:41] Mary: I didn’t… What’s it… Do you know what it’s called? Okay. I

[01:29:43] Chris_G: get that to you,

[01:29:43] joe: though. Yeah,

definitely. That’d be awesome. I’ll put that in the show notes.

And

[01:29:46] Chris_G: it was a lot about the gardening. Because these were creatures that were very interested in growing things.

And they did some interior shots of the ship, and there were all these things growing. Interesting enough Spielberg said that when they were doing up [01:30:00] sketchbooks of, he sent it out to a bunch of people, “Show me what’s going on in the chest.” A lot of people are like, “This is probably mammalian or reptilian or what- whatever type.”

And one artist submitted, “I believe it might be plant-like on the inside.” Yeah. And Spielberg kinda latched himself onto that. That interior of that animal would be plant-ish. I don’t know what that looks like. I don’t know what that sketchbook looked like on that day,

[01:30:26] joe: Yeah.

[01:30:26] Chris_G: but there’s so many roads that were not traveled with this.

This movie was underestimated, and it is still talked about to this day.

[01:30:36] joe: Yeah. I was gonna say one is the the skin and the look are more cephalopod, so octopus, squid.

The kind of the, the skin texture, the veiny-ness. If you’ve seen

[01:30:46] Chris_G: What? Nothing.

[01:30:46] Mary: What? Nothing.

[01:30:47] joe: If you’ve seen

[01:30:48] Mary: The peanut gallery over there … Right. Yeah.

[01:30:50] joe: you have that, the color-changing, things like that. That was also inspiration for the outer look of the E.T. In, in the show, so,[01:31:00]

[01:31:00] Chris_G: Thank you for that cephalopod synopsis.

[01:31:02] joe: Thank you for that cephalopod suggestion.

Cephalopod, yeah,

[01:31:02] Mary: Well,

you know what-

[01:31:03] joe: That’s it

[01:31:04] Mary: you know what this conversation reminds me a little bit of is,

[01:31:07] joe: The Gremlins

conversation? No.

[01:31:08] Chris_G: Did you ever,

did anyb-

[01:31:09] georgia: me a

[01:31:10] Mary: Did you ever… Did anyb- did anybody here watch Tommy Boy?

[01:31:13] joe: in

[01:31:13] Chris_G: Oh, very

[01:31:14] joe: very

[01:31:14] Mary: I’ve s- I’ve seen it a million times. Love it. Right. The… Well, the moment where they’re in the car and The Carpenters come on.

[01:31:22] nick: Oh.

[01:31:23] Mary: Like-

[01:31:23] joe: pleasure. lame.

lame. We

[01:31:25] Chris_G: change it if you want. Yeah. You could change it.

[01:31:28] Mary: sure you

[01:31:28] georgia: it.

[01:31:29] nick: it.

[01:31:29] georgia: No, true.

[01:31:29] nick: No, it’s true.

[01:31:29] Mary: remember Tommy. I know. Baby. But just the idea is like God forbid we just like something just tender and sweet

[01:31:37] joe: I know.

[01:31:38] georgia: know.

[01:31:39] joe: mean- I mean, you

can. Okay. No, you can.

Like I said, my, my thing

[01:31:42] Mary: not- It’s a thousand percent … and it’s not a,

[01:31:43] joe: a good movie.

I, said a good movie,

I just don’t think it’s the

great…

In the, the lineup of 82 movies, I just don’t think it was-

[01:31:52] georgia: Why do we have to make that a competition?

[01:31:54] joe: do we have to make that a competition? Well, I mean, because it is.

[01:31:56] georgia: No. That’s not, we weren’t here not what we were- The show’s about [01:32:00] lists. I mean-

[01:32:00] joe: I to g- a- absolutely. Not everyone- Absolutely

[01:32:03] Mary: it’s not for everyone, obviously. But- I

[01:32:04] joe: think the movie- Yeah … because of its it was

I would go, I think it’s one of the first blockbusters that really catered to kids that kids were

seen- as a money maker,

right? Because up to that point,

[01:32:16] Chris_G: Star Wars didn’t cater to kids?

[01:32:18] georgia: I don’t think so.

I

[01:32:19] nick: think- Eh. It

[01:32:20] georgia: those toys

[01:32:20] joe: have the toys. I mean, there was

hands cut off. You’re right, the toys came after, and I think that sparked this whole thing that, oh, you know what? You can have a movie.

But Star Wars was kind of viol- I

mean, it was,

meh, I mean, kids, you know, I watched it with, I mean, when our oldest was five, I mean, he freaked out at the hand cutting off scenes. It was not

[01:32:37] Chris_G: like- No blood,

[01:32:38] Mary: blood, though.

[01:32:38] joe: There was blood though … there wasn’t But- Zero

cauterizing

[01:32:40] Chris_G: blood. Cauterizing

[01:32:41] joe: I think E.T. was kind of the first where it was like, let’s make this a movie and just focus on kids and roll the dice, and I think that’s why it really hit where it hit because it was

[01:32:53] Chris_G: Not just make a movie for kids, and make it in the, in, from the viewpoint of kids, but put real [01:33:00] Hollywood muscle behind

[01:33:01] joe: That’s right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

[01:33:02] Chris_G: yep, yep.

[01:33:03] joe: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But

it also

[01:33:04] Mary: to adults, too. Absolutely.

[01:33:06] Chris_G: all day.

[01:33:07] Mary: went … You know, it’s just, it just struck a chord with so

many-

[01:33:09] nick: right. All

[01:33:10] joe: I will say the point

[01:33:11] georgia: universal, like, I, you know … Hold on. If you

[01:33:13] nick: haven’t seen ET before, would you still have the same nostalgia with it?

[01:33:19] georgia: It’s impossible to really know.

Like, I’m ready

to

[01:33:21] Chris_G: that. I’m gonna give you that Yeah. Yeah. I’m not sure I would

[01:33:24] nick: Like I get it.

I get it.

You guys have so much more nostalgia for it than I do, and

[01:33:31] georgia: I,

[01:33:31] nick: seeing it again,

I just didn’t have that feeling.

[01:33:35] Chris_G: fair.

[01:33:35] nick: It never hit that chord with

[01:33:37] joe: me. yeah. That’s fair. Yeah.

[01:33:38] Mary: You know, not everyone… It’s, nothing is gonna be to everybody’s taste. It’s just the… I don’t know, it just, it’s just, it’s sweet. And, you know, it, there’s a lot of ridiculous things that happen in it. The most ridiculous thing that ever has happened in a movie is at the end of Ghostbusters, okay?

You spend the whole movie, “We shouldn’t cross the streams.

[01:33:58] joe: you coming back for We cross, we cross the stream, and then we’re fine. And then the

movie ends. And Chris was fine. He’s like, “Oh, okay.”[01:34:00]

[01:34:00] georgia: the streams-

[01:34:00] Mary: the

[01:34:00] Chris_G: streams-

[01:34:01] Mary: and then we’re fine.” And then the movie ends, “I guess it was fine.” I’m like, “Okay. All right. Fine.” yeah. Okay. I know. It’s, it’s-

[01:34:07] joe: Chris is

[01:34:07] Chris_G: I think Chris

[01:34:09] Mary: and I were friends up until

[01:34:10] Chris_G: back for that Ghostbusters

episode.

[01:34:12] nick: this

show.

[01:34:12] Mary: And

[01:34:13] nick: back for that

[01:34:14] Chris_G: And you make sure

Mary’s

[01:34:15] Mary: right there. I’m

[01:34:16] joe: was gonna point

out

something,

[01:34:17] Chris_G: I’ll bring two pairs of

[01:34:18] Mary: I for

[01:34:19] nick: what

[01:34:19] joe: it’s-

We’re gonna

[01:34:19] Mary: For what it’s worth, I do like Ghostbusters a lot, but yeah. Yeah. I think

[01:34:23] joe: I think that’s worth an episode. Yeah.

And so there it is. For sure. Chris has it there. Absolutely

But I’ma I’ma point out the point of view, and then we can wrap, but the point of view, something I heard about Jurassic Park and Michael Crichton, who wrote that the first draft of that was actually written from the POV of the kid

And it

was like this great, I mean, it was a great idea.

People were like, “This is the greatest idea we’ve heard. You know, we’re gonna make, take dinosaurs, make an amusement park,” but this POV sucks. And so he went back- Yeah … and wrote it from the adult point of view, and that’s that. So …I

think that helps, and I think ET really benefited from being from the point of view [01:35:00] of the kid.

I think if it was

told from the point of view of the adult, it would’ve been, or as a, you know, anything else, it would’ve slipped into maybe more horror, maybe more psychological. It wouldn’t have been the movie that it was. So I’d think point of view is important, and when that movie came out, that was one where it really focused on that kids’,

you know- Yes point of view is, could make money. I think that was it, and that, that cracked that open for all those movies that came after that that it was like, this is a money maker.”

[01:35:28] Chris_G: There’s importance versus good. Not all good movies are important.

[01:35:31] georgia: they

[01:35:32] joe: it.

I think- That’s, why a lot

of these you know, CEOs and things missed it, because it was written from that, that POV.

[01:35:38] Mary: written for

[01:35:38] joe: And they

just didn’t realize that would work in movie format, not animated. Yeah, animated we get, “Oh, yeah, that, that would work.” But I think this was that these kids would drag their parents there. I mean, except me. I dragged my dad to The Thing. But that was, you know.

But all

right.

Any final thoughts? Chris, you got final thoughts? Then we can go ahead and wrap it up.

[01:35:57] Chris_G: I wanna thank you guys for having me again.

[01:35:59] joe: for [01:36:00]

[01:36:00] nick: thank you for being

[01:36:01] joe: it, yeah. Thank

[01:36:01] Chris_G: very

[01:36:02] joe: now. I got, I’m putting that on

my list. Season four, Ghostbusters.

Fanta-

[01:36:05] Chris_G: Oh, let’s do

that. Yes, Let’s do that. I’ll get a

[01:36:09] joe: net.

[01:36:09] Chris_G: Shower that day.

Like- It’ll be

fantastic. Like,

[01:36:11] georgia: fantastic.

[01:36:11] Mary: Whatever you do, don’t cut the goatee. The goatee is magnificent. Oh. It w- it

[01:36:15] Chris_G: is- Oh … it’s magnificent. My wife is ready to, to

trim this

[01:36:17] Mary: we, it’s, we have a long, white goatee here.

[01:36:19] Chris_G: Ange, you’re gonna listen to this- Okay … in, like, what? September, October.

[01:36:24] joe: like that, Yeah. Yeah.

yeah. It’s coming out right in there, yep.

[01:36:25] Mary: She’s coming

[01:36:26] Chris_G: after Halloween is

when this goes away. Th- this is gonna be a handlebar mustache.

[01:36:31] Mary: Oh. Yeah, you’ll see. There’s a reason for this. So it’s

[01:36:34] Chris_G: be red,

white, and blue in a couple of days. Oh, yeah.

[01:36:36] joe: Oh, yeah.

Okay, wow. So,

[01:36:37] Chris_G: so tune into your Facebook channels for that. Tune in. But it’s gonna be out past my ears by the time I’m done with

[01:36:42] joe: Speaking of that, give your links where people can find you, things like that,

[01:36:45] Chris_G: Oh, I’m on Instagram, theboxinggloveartist. I also have a food page on Instagram called stupidgoodgrill, all one word, and Chris Guzman on on Facebook. Good work. Good artist. Go check out

[01:36:50] joe: food page on Instagram. Yeah. Called

[01:36:52] georgia: Good

[01:36:53] joe: stupidgoodgrill, all

one word. Yeah.

[01:36:54] Chris_G: Yes.

[01:36:54] joe: And Chris Guzman. Yeah. Good griller, good artist. Go check out the artwork.

Go buy [01:37:00] some boxing gloves, ’cause they’re, they are awesome.

[01:37:02] Chris_G: You’re very good stuff, so. Yeah. With that, anyone else have any last words or anything? With that, I’m Joe.

[01:37:08] georgia: You got Nick.

[01:37:09] joe: got Nick. We got Nick. Georgia. We

got Georgia.

[01:37:11] Mary: got Mary.

[01:37:11] joe: We got Mary.

[01:37:13] nick: And we went Down Some Hole. Down some hole. Stay safe. Bye-bye.

Episode 47 Transcript: Who Goes There?: The Thing and The Shape of Paranoia

Listen to Episode 47

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Joe: [00:00:00] Hey, welcome back to the Rabbit Hole of Research down here in the Basement Studio for another fun episode, part of our October, month of horror. So

Bill_H: yes, I finally

Nick: I mean,

Joe: tasty episodes for you. So this one

Nick: here we are known for our horror. 

Joe: we

are, . And the Breaking News.

Nick: Breaking news. 

Joe: news. Maybe we’ll get another Breaking News this year. I don’t know

Nick: if something big happens. We’ll find out here first.

Joe: This episode has been a long time in the making, probably for me, since 1982. And we’re gonna be, you know, Who Goes There, The Thing and the shape of paranoia.

So all things creature related there. So we should have some fun. We have actually, not only the full crew, we have a full house, every mic in the studio,

Nick: is hot

Joe: plus zoom. So we have five folks. 

Nick: I’m sorry, who are you?

Bill_H: And how many of you are actually human? That’s

Nick: right. Am I sure you are who I think you are. Maybe none of us are who we are,

Joe: we [00:01:00] are, but I am Joe

Nick: You got Nick. 

Joe: got Nick. we’ve got Georgia and guest number one.

Bill_H: Hi, I am Bill Haller. I’m a artist and designer, work in television and film and comic books.

And I’m here for the horror 

Joe: here for the horror.

Here

Bill_H: here for the, I’m here for the horror. Yeah.

Nick: Oh

Joe: Yep. Here for the horror and our other guests.

Todd_T: Hi, 

I am Todd Thyer, and I’m a designer artist letterpress printer.

And I make books with my letter presses, I work in fiction predominantly,

but then I also do a lot of social justice, work as well. But who goes there?

and The Thing are like my favorite story. And they’re a big part of Who I am today.

Joe: awesome. Yes,

Bill_H: Yeah. You know what I’d like to say? Just at the top here. Thank you for giving me any excuse to rewatch The Thing. Reread Who Goes There. Go through my comic bin thinking, I know, I read a comic about this. I don’t care if [00:02:00] the internet says it doesn’t exist. Yeah. And I found it.

Yeah.

Nick: damn. 

Joe: There’s a few,

Bill_H: Yeah.

Joe: Horse? Dark Horse Did

Bill_H: I found a straight up adaptation that I read. When I was a kid, I’m pretty sure it’s the first time I came across any of this material was a 17 page adaptation that was published in like 73 or 74. Okay. Company called Whitman Comics. They had a magazine 

Todd_T: think I have 

Bill_H: yeah.

Georgia: All right. That’s awesome. I was gonna say edit, bring it for show and tell

Bill_H: own it. I couldn’t find it. I tracked it down on the

Georgia: Oh, I gotcha. You verified.

Bill_H: I do have CBRI can send you guys if you guys read Digital Comics, but I went through that because there’s a piece in there that I always remember when I read the books or watch the movies that.

Aren’t, it’s not anywhere else. And it’s like, where am I getting 

Joe: that 

Bill_H: from? And it’s from this comic. Yeah. Yeah.

Georgia: And I wanna mention too, that this is a second episode for you, Bill. Yeah.

Joe: it says [00:03:00] Yes,

Bill_H: Coming

Georgia: You’re only the second person to come for a second time, really. So it’s pretty, that’s pretty big. That

Bill_H: is, I feel.

Thanks

Joe: But

all

it all depends on the order of these episode releases in

Georgia: that’s true.

Bill_H: I guess I didn’t do so badly last time.

Joe: No, yeah, that’s right. So

Nick: were you able to find it? 

Joe: Oh,

Todd_T: So I’ve, I picked this up at a

comic show recently? It’s Quest Star?

Bill_H: yeah. That collects all those, yes. Yeah,

Todd_T: It’s like by Golden Press, but it’s got Who Goes There in it.

Bill_H: that’s the one.

Todd_T: this is the One. You read as a 

Bill_H: the, that’s a collection of the ones that I read as a 

Todd_T: oh, gotcha. Gotcha.

Bill_H: the one from the, apparently the magazine at the time was called Star Stream or Slipstream, I believe, and they only did three issues and then they co, somebody other company years later bought those issues and collected it into that graphic novel there.

So that has. That

Nick: oh damn

Georgia: ah, that’s so cool.

Joe: we’ll put that in the show 

Bill_H: But yeah, that one really, you know, I stumbled across it at a [00:04:00] Goodwill when I was probably 11, you know, and it was

cost me costing me a quarter or 

Todd_T: here’s the title. 

Bill_H: Yeah.

Nick: Oh damn.

Bill_H: And

Joe: nice

Bill_H: that

one Blair falls asleep on the block of ice that they just cut out and they’re transporting back to their base and he’s so tired that he falls asleep on the block of ice and has nightmares maybe psychically transmitted by the alien within.

And I always think of that and it never comes up again in the movies, and it’s not in the book. They just made that up from, you know, inferences and stuff in the story, but. My mind is wait, where is that

Georgia: You’re like, I know.

Bill_H: fall asleep on that thing?

Joe: Yeah,

Nick: Yeah. Hasn’t anyone taken a nap yet? Yeah.

Bill_H: Not enough naps in John Carpenter’s movie.

That’s where it falls down for

Joe: You need naps.

Bill_H: I’m gonna,

Joe: I’m gonna take a step back because

Georgia: because we probably need a list or some sort of you know, very. We’re just,

Joe: I wanna give my definition

Or my grounding and I have a list.[00:05:00] 

Georgia: We’re just really excited to talk about this. If you

Bill_H: so exciting.

Joe: Humor me a little bit, and then I do have a list and we can add and argue, but actually this has been a while since I’ve given a list right off the top.

But I’m gonna do this thing here, because 

Nick: I

Joe: I wrote something special because The Thing is special to me. I think as Todd said. I saw in 82, I was like seven. My dad took me to see it. Probably not advised to take your 7-year-old to see The Thing, but it did. It truly did.

Nick: But a 4-year-old is cool for this right

Bill_H: I can imagine.

Joe: Take a 4-year-old. So I have, The Thing is a self replicating polymorphic organism composed of functionally autonomous units capable of simulating and replicate, replicating the form and behavior of other organisms at a molecular and cognitive level. The Thing is, a horror made flesh, an unknowable, uncontainable intruder that weaponizes biology and identity by undermining the metaphysical distinction between self and other, revealing the fragility of human [00:06:00] perception, trust and cohesion who goes there.

And on this episode, we’re gonna find out who’s who.

Georgia: Ooh, Ooh.

Joe: And then, you know, just to ground everything I

Nick: there’s grounding in this

Joe: all, there’s gr, there’s grounding in the handwavium soup. We will, we’ll try to ground it and get someplace safe. I as rules and assumptions, watching the movies, the stories you know, the Carpenter Watts just going Campbell.

And so I have these kind of eight, I only had seven and I ran a list, actually passed my youngest son

and he added the

eighth Nice.

So I’m gonna give, I’m gonna give him credit for the eighth one because I was like, oh, what do you think it is? And didn.

Georgia: He loved the movie. He did love movie. We went What? What anniversary? It’s

Joe: The 40th

Georgia: Was it the 40th? I think like we recently went to the movie theater, you know, whenever it was re released. And we took Xavier and he’s oh yeah, I think we need to watch that again.

Like the next day. Yeah.

Bill_H: is

Joe: [00:07:00] he is like

Bill_H: a dream come true. That’s so cool.

Joe: I’m gonna figure out who’s who. He was like, really? He is I, you know, he’s mapping it.

Bill_H: I’m like,

Joe: wow, you should focus on your schoolwork like this man you know. 

Todd_T: How young did you expose

him to it?

show him at seven as 

well? 

Joe: was not seven. No, he was, it

Georgia: he was,

Joe: it was a few years. Either it was 12 or 13. Something in that 

Bill_H: ballpark. Well, Perfect. Is 

Joe: that right? Yeah.

Georgia: Yeah. If it’s even been that long, but like

Yeah. No,

in the last couple of years it hasn’t even been that long, has it? Yeah. So he’s 15 right now,

Joe: right now. Yeah. So we can do the math

Nick: later. 12 or 13 sounds

Joe: yeah.

Georgia: yeah.

Joe: I

Bill_H: that’s the kind of stuff that’ll stick with you.

Joe: right after, it was like right after the pandemic. It was a good time to go see The Thing. 

Bill_H: Oh man.

Joe: it of we can go to a movie theater with a mask on. So I have these eight kind of rules and assumptions that I, and we can add to ’em or you can, you guys can scratch some of ’em if you like.

One, I have any biomass can be assimilated, not just humans. Two. Each assimilated host becomes an independent replicator. [00:08:00] Three replication is cellular. No need for the full organism to act. So it’s, it really happens at the cellular level. It can spread via blood aerosol or tissue. Contact detection is difficult, especially early on and.

Assimilation time ranges from 10 minutes to a few hours. Depending on proximity and complexity. One fragment can start over like a viral pandemic with perfect self replication and the one that Xavier added, it can survive extreme cold temperatures for extended periods of time and heat fire.

Those 

Georgia: an extremophiles.

Nick: extreme. Oh, you’re bringing this one back,

Joe: we’re ringing it back from the Fantastic Four series, if you haven’t checked that out though. But yeah,

Nick: months ago, Georgia, months ago, as

Georgia: As many times as I could say that

Joe: did.

Nick: Yes.

Georgia: I like to say it. Thing

Joe: foul. Yes.

Bill_H: Now I have this unholy union of The Thing and a water bear like in my head right now.[00:09:00] 

Joe: Yes. That, so we The tardigrade We were like, oh, it doesn’t come up that often. And now 

Bill_H: no, it’s everywhere.

Joe: everywhere you go, the tardigrade. Yeah. So that’s what I had for the assumption, the assumptions of the thing and maybe rules. I don’t know. So I don’t know if I missed something or you guys, the one I held on after I read it was the actually, I don’t know now.

Nevermind. Detection is difficult. Especially early. I think at

Georgia: think detection is difficult, even not early on.

Wasn’t that the whole point 

Joe: Right. Yeah. Well, I 

Nick: I mean, there are certain ways, it’s just depending on what scientist is figuring it out. Yeah. Because what, in the prequel, the 2011, The Thing they were looking in everyone’s mouth. Let me see your fillers.

Joe: For the

Bill_H: that’s right. Yeah. For the fillers,

the fillings, right? Yeah, that’s

Joe: Or you have the clothes rip open, like that was the theory that you shred your clothes, like you lose ’em. But no one’s running around naked.

So I don’t know if 

Bill_H: a lot of that.

Nick: that was,

Joe: that’s not it. They got 

Todd_T: [00:10:00] Despite, Yeah,

despite the different deaths, like

everybody always seemed to, their shirts 

Joe: That’s right. They had pants on you know.

Bill_H: That 

Todd_T: They were no longer bloodied 

Bill_H: In Watt’s story. That he addressed a little bit that I thought was very interesting. His take on that the longer that it’s been in you and how much of it you’ve been exposed to. It may just be in there hanging out, learning things, you know, and not really affecting anything else. Yeah. Until maybe it’s all you and then,

Georgia: so it’s almost like it’s dormant a little bit, or not dormant, but

Bill_H: It was sneaky in his

Joe: Or which percentage.

Because I think the one thing that no one talks about is that not only is The Thing mimicking human cells

And function, but also we have a lot of other organisms that live in US, bacteria, fungal, and on us. So there, there are these other species. That’s why that any almost biomass can be converted then technically, because if your gut is still filled with [00:11:00] bacteria that, you might just have a lot of intestinal kind of 

Bill_H: mm-hmm. down 

Joe: as the thing comes in. So it is it’s fascinating. 

Bill_H: some, you,

Todd_T: yeah. If you can

subsume any sort of creature that you on the planets you land on, like you can

certainly do their microbes as well. 

Bill_H: That’s

Joe: Yeah. 

Yeah.

Bill_H: I basically watch The Thing once a year at least it is a part of my DNA. 

Joe: trying

to find a 

Nick: h Oh, wait, all the way down to your DNA?

Bill_H: Yes. All the way down.

Nick: man.

I gotta in you

Georgia: yeah. Is there a certain time of year you find yourself going over more in the winter times, you know, or maybe winter, like it’s really cold yeah,

Bill_H: I usually get a call to watch all like his unofficial apocalypse trilogy Carpenter’s Apocalypse, Trilogy with the the thing. And then what’s it? 

Todd_T: From New York.

Bill_H: no 

Todd_T: Oh. 

Bill_H: the lemme say I wrote this down

Nick: because

Bill_H: knew what would go outta my head the second I needed to remember

darkness. the one in the middle is

Joe: yeah, I’m trying to,

Bill_H: the one I always

Joe: you said darkness, and now I’m [00:12:00] like,

Bill_H: yeah. Now 

Georgia: now you’re stumping us. So it’s

Bill_H: The Thing, and it’s Prince of darkness. Prince of, and it’s

Georgia: it’s

Bill_H: of madness. Okay. And if you extend a little bit, there’s Cigarette Burns years later that like sh short film he did.

Georgia: So do you watch ’em like boom,

Bill_H: Yeah. Like one sort of initiates the other in my memory and I’m like I

Nick: gotta watch

Bill_H: other one. And they all have, they all harken up to the, end of the world in some way in different ways, but Right. They’re really interesting together, which I like sort of the ideas that they bring up and then play off of each other.

But so I’ve, I watch The Thing all the time, but I haven’t read the original story. Who goes there in ages? I’d forgotten quite a bit of

Georgia: there, there’s a really nice letter press copy that you could, it’s beautiful.

Joe: Yeah,

Bill_H: I will be getting one.

That’s what this is all about. It’s selling you a bunch of these books, isn’t it?

It worked damnit

Joe: That’s why we have people [00:13:00] on the podcast. So that’s

Bill_H: so there was quite a few things I forgot about the story. I was pleasantly surprised how much of even dialogue I recognized, you know, that Carpenter used in the film. But there was a bit in there where they’re talking about the cows that they have

and they go to check on the cows and then they’d come back and say, the cows are all dead. We killed them. They were all. Things. And one of the guys sitting there freaks out and rushes out into the Antarctic, apparently, to die. ’cause he just drank a bunch of the cow’s milk. Cow. That wasn’t a cow.

Nick: Oh, 

Bill_H: and then they test the milk and they say, it is. It is. As cow’s milk.

As cow’s milk is cow’s milk. And I thought that was a really interesting thing that the cow wasn’t a cow anymore, but it was such a perfect. Adaptation, you know,

Joe: and it made milk

Bill_H: that it made milk and the milk was okay. 

Nick: So that guy pretty much doomed the world though.

Joe: But I don’t

I don’t understand [00:14:00] why in that scenario that the milk wouldn’t have Thing

Bill_H: Things in it.

Georgia: That you could de

Joe: like it’s a convenient

Georgia: about detection. You should be able to detect something. This was

Bill_H: the fifties. They didn’t have, you know, quite as high levels Exactly.

Georgia: analysis of their milk and 

Joe: who’s you know, who’s

Georgia: and then at what point does the cow stop being the cow and become The Thing?

Joe: Yeah. And I was gonna ask,

Georgia: and I think that’s like your point, like at what point, do you know what I mean? Is the host.

Todd_T: I’ve always thought it’s more, almost like viral or it needs to reach a tipping

point before you’re like, especially in the original story of Who Goes There, he talks

Or no, I guess.

it’s more in the things because

You’re hearing through Peter Watts. you’re hearing the viewpoint of the alien,

but he’s trying to you know,

gain control. and how sometimes he’s just I just feel like I’m

wearing this

skin.

And then, you know, so it’s, so maybe it is that up

until a certain point.

like so many [00:15:00] hours or

whatever where it can multiply and Take over

The cells,

but yeah. You think the milk would go bad?

Bill_H: I 

Joe: wonder

Georgia: Or it tastes funny.

Joe: that kind of to play on that idea a little bit. If, does it matter how The Thing gains entry? So if it actually takes over the brain cells 

Bill_H: first. mm-hmm. 

Joe: Does it have now cognitive control versus if you you know, get a cut on your foot or something like that?

And it takes some time for it because it has now to assimilate all the foot cells, come up to leg cells, you know, you have this whole process. I mean, once it gets to the bloodstream, potentially, then you would have this kind of movement. But it, it’s then would you be as a human cognizant of it?

Oh, something’s wrong with me. You know, 

Georgia: I can feel it coming. 

Todd_T: It burns. 

Joe: is being disconnected from my body. All the neurons and everything aren’t firing correctly. I got a dead leg now. Why you gotta limp there all of a sudden?

Georgia: I’m trying to remember, I’m trying to, is there a clear way that The Thing [00:16:00] infects someone that’s not really, that’s not really,

Joe: it’s fast and loose. It’s it’s kinda like zombie biology you know, it’s like sometimes one little particle can do it. Sometimes you got your hands, you know, arm deep into a carcass and like pulling out organs and everyone’s watching.

It’s like everyone, there’s infected now. Just, I just wanna say the scientists there, they have no they’re,

Bill_H: every time it’s

Joe: and fast with you know, 

Georgia: not a, Not a good representation of the scientist.

It’s like a 

Joe: videos every year for training about biosafety, like what to do with needles and how to do this and how to take gloves off.

Nick: Is it bad that caught my attention too. I was like, this is definitely gonna be a Joe thing, where he’s they shouldn’t do that. Like they should be wearing some kind of sleeves going in and

Georgia: protective, yeah. You’ve got

Bill_H: Wilford Brimley, Blair walking around pointing out this still steaming carcass on the table. It looks hot and I know people say if you look really closely, his pencil doesn’t touch it, but he like [00:17:00] taps at it. He points at it and then almost immediately puts the pencil against his mouth and I’m screaming inside the whole time, oh my God,

Joe: Do not do that.

Bill_H: stop that. It

Joe: Hmm. It

tastes like raspberry.

Bill_H: I’d

Nick: would rather him just start licking at, I love just being like let’s see what this tastes like.

Joe: The one with the dogs, they go, they burn the dogs all up, but then they go in and he’s just cracking stuff. Look at this. There’s a, I mean, there’s particles

Bill_H: nitrile gloves.

Joe: It’s yeah. And he’s little, the thinnest gloves. One could get.

It’s for your pleasure. It was like, God

Nick: I’m not

Joe: there. Know. It’s like just,

Nick: they might as well just

Joe: yeah. It was like

Bill_H: Brimley 

Todd_T: don’t have to guess. When they lock him up, you’re like, oh

yeah, right. Yeah. 

the 

Joe: he was done. Really, I’m looking at everyone that’s around who gets close oh, let me see that second intestine that you pulled out there.

You know, it’s as he is going through the whole, you know, just really digging in there.

Bill_H: He’s really getting his hands

Joe: was just like 

Bill_H: I read that, I think that might have been something to do with the effects guy Rob Botin, who was like, originally they had this gonna be this creature.

We, we don’t know what it is yet. [00:18:00] We haven’t made it yet, but there’ll be this creature stalking around and he being like young and crazy was like. How about it’s like different every time we see it to partially in between changes and this and that and so it’s never the same creature. It’s always a different one.

And I can make, I can drive myself to the point of exhaustion making, you know, multiple different versions of these things every time it’s a new horror, you know? And that might’ve been where that sort of came from. And that does, it is nice, it does leave open

Georgia: think that

Bill_H: I don’t

Georgia: works perfectly with the story.

Yeah. The fact that it, that. It does shape shift and goes to all these things so it makes sense that the creature itself would be do you know what I mean?

Joe: but it was also that thing. If Blair, let’s say Blair got

Nick: that thing pretty

Joe: on

Bill_H: Kind of Thing.

Joe: and then he goes, lock this, lock the body up in a little coat closet with, you know, then you have the next couple people in there with it.[00:19:00] 

I mean, is it now, you know, like really thinking and strategizing, how do I spread myself to others? Because it, yeah, because The Thing does a great job at hiding itself, and it does a really poor job at hiding itself. And it usually breaks out at the most inopportune time. It’s you should really just stay quiet.

This is the time you stay

Nick: quiet. How are you making it through the galaxy like this, like you are going gungho. It’s just what? Why

Joe: Here I am now. Like when he went in the dog kennel, he could just chilled out. Yeah. But then it was like, oh, there’s four other dogs in there.

I’m gonna get ’em. This is my time. Like there you go now. And it’s and he obviously, or I’m saying he, it obviously had dealt with dogs before and understand that once you rope the dog with your coily, stringy stuff and juices, that they’re gonna freak out and then humans will come. And it, is that a strategy, I mean, is that the strategy? Once the humans come, then I can spray them and it was an interesting thing. Like what [00:20:00] was the strategy with the dog kennel? ’cause he could have just laid back and then went and bit people and licked them and really just, it could have, I keep saying he, I don’t know. 

Todd_T: I think it’s I think that the theme is

like universal bad decisions. Like just

later when you see like people going out into the dark by

themselves or you know, don’t go up

there, there’s a killer in the basement or whatever.

It’s yep. Even brilliant space creatures are like

Joe: Yeah.

Georgia: right,

Nick: That makes me feel good about the

Georgia: That’s right. We all have

Nick: can just do it. 

Todd_T: you’ve got a chance. Yeah.

Bill_H: I don’t know, for the listener, we are drawing from three, like major texts here, right? Yeah. Like you got the, who goes there

so 

Joe: I can, who goes there by John W.

Campbell, 1938, right? We have The Thing From Another World, 1951. That was the

Georgia: Okay. And that was the movie. Yeah.

Joe: we 

Todd_T: the Howard 

Joe: Howard

Hawkes. We have The Thing 1982 by John Carpenter. And then we have The Thing, the prequel 2011 there,

Nick: but it’s also just called The Thing,

Joe: called The [00:21:00] 

Nick: It’s 

Bill_H: A Little Confusing

Joe: the Things by Peter Watts in 2010.

That was a short short fiction.

Bill_H: which

was fantastic

Joe: from the perspective of The Thing. I

did 

Bill_H: not read

that one and it knocked my socks off. I seriously, the last sentence knocked some wind out of me. I ver I was like, oof. When I read the final sentence of that story, 

Todd_T: it hits like a punch. 

Bill_H: it was a physical punch into my guts.

But there he deals with a lot of some of these ideas in a very interesting way. And the original story does too, that you can’t quite get across in, you know, action horror film. But there are some interesting things in there about in Watt’s specifically that the things he the creature is letting those things happen as, you know, sometimes as distractions, right?

So that, you know, it can continue to do other things while everyone is rushing around trying to track down a monster. It’s still a dog somewhere or one [00:22:00] of these other guys, and it’s doing things, you know, many Blair in the movie is in that hut for days building a spaceship.

Joe: so

Bill_H: you know,

Joe: I mean, at the dog scene, and I’m gonna go back

Georgia: dog scene in

Joe: thing 82 Carpenter, the dog actually splits off

Bill_H: So

Joe: then goes out somewhere to either assimilate into another dog.

Or do something out in the wild. And so you had that scene. So not only was Blair out there, but there was another fully formed thing that was out there running around and running off somewhere. You’re right. It was one of these things where it actually, it never really, no one ever said, where’d that thing go?

Like it was just gone. Like they flame thrower. Childs came up with the flame thrower. They flame

Georgia: That’s probably a good thing to ask. No one

Joe: let’s go out and find it.

Georgia: Either that or just let’s not worry about that. Let’s pretend that didn’t happen.

Joe: But this gets to, to a point that it’s [00:23:00] not just assimilation either because that dog it developed a lot of biomass that it just is.

So there’s some, you know, rapid growth factors that’s happening. I mean, it was, it had arms. I mean, it really reached 10, 12 feet. I don’t know how tall it was, but it reached up with strength pulled itself out. So you had all these scenes where it wasn’t just, I’m making another Bill. It’s like I can actually do other stuff on the fly.

And is that’s probably pulling from some historical DNA, is it, does it have like many copies of species DNA that it can pull from in some conscious. Way. I mean, it really I started thinking about that as a, as an organism.

Bill_H: that’s always what I imagined like the things we were seeing, especially in that scene. Yeah. Where we get that at the end we get that like flesh flower that blooms that’s right from the head of the

Joe: that. Yep. Yeah. 

Bill_H: Oh my, this is some sort of alien creature that it is assimilated eons ago and is just referencing from, its [00:24:00] like memory banks of anything it’s ever been and if it’s got enough.

Biomass, it can just recreate whatever that is. 

Joe: I mean that dog wasn’t, didn’t have a lot of biomass. No. I mean, it, I think if we did

Bill_H: technically he was also attached by its tendrils and

Joe: stuff. Yeah. But he wasn’t, I mean,

Bill_H: and could have been drawing in.

Joe: That was a lot. I mean

Bill_H: a lot. It was

Joe: that was

like 10 dogs worth

Todd_T: But that’s where in The Things like, so when I talked to Peter Watts about this, he was just like, that was one of the things that he was, try he tries to,

fix some 

of those little errors. 

Like he was in, in,

the Things he refers to it, like eating all their food

In the background.

and then not knowing it.

But yeah, it does certainly grow

exponentially.

Joe: Because you not only have the biomass, but you also need the energy to calories. So even though you’re eating all the food, and we can,

Nick: how many calories does a human have, Joe?

Joe: how many calories does a human have? Yeah.

Nick: If you were to eat a human body.

Georgia: we’ve talked about this I feel like we have, but I don’t remember.

Joe: think it was like, was it like a hundred thousand?

I mean, it was

Georgia: it was a lot.

Joe: Yeah. It was enough [00:25:00] for someone to turn into a werewolf.

Nick: Oh, that was last Halloween episode. Episode last h geez.

Joe: That’s right. 

Georgia: I’m just thinking about in nature. Like creatures that are para parasites. And that can and then also there’s creatures that can change.

Like I, I don’t know. I’m not, I don’t have anything specific, but it just seems like something in nature is similar to that.

Bill_H: Yeah. Like a butterfly over its lifespan does completely physically transform at some point. 

Joe: And actually will it juices itself down and then it reforms out of that, , so it uses that biomass, it converts it down to basic, like a soup and then

Bill_H: which is amazing forms

Joe: out of it. Yeah. So that was something there, but yeah, there’s no real,

there’s nothing

on earth that we can directly compare to the thing.

Georgia: that we know of.

Joe: unless we are right. No, we’re there. But there are, there were a lot of things, and I I mean, just thinking about it , we’ve formed , relationships or with things over [00:26:00] time at the cellular level . So mitochondria and chloroplast, those are organelles.

And you carry our cells. So our cells have mitochondria, plants have chloroplast or those photosynthesis, but those organelles used to be free living organisms that were eating, eaten by something else and then incorporated to do work for the cells. And then they became larger, more multi complex organisms.

You know, that type of thing happens in nature. We have mind controlling organisms.

So we have, you know, corti opus is all of age right now you know, the parasitic fungus, you know, you know, the wasp, 

Bill_H: that can,

Joe: as they get infected, they do things. Toxoplasma Gondii.

That one’s really cool that can actually infect mammal brains.

It’s

Georgia: It’s cool unless it happens to you

Joe: particular, it, if people don’t know it, infects rod. So lifecycle is multi organism, so it infects rodents and then the rodents can become infected and then they become attracted to cats, which will kill the, and eat

Nick: what kind of attracted to cats? What 

Joe: [00:27:00] it aggressively goes after the cat.

Bill_H: Not sensually.

Nick: Oh, okay. It’s not,

Joe: I mean, 

Nick: I was like, is it like, Hey cat?

Todd_T: seen that? You 

don’t 

Nick: that’s right. The rat 

Joe: doesn’t live long enough to really get his

Bill_H: I’m not a scientist. I’m not a sexy scientist. I shouldn’t have, I’ve, I’m

Nick: Hey kitty cat whatcha you up to

Joe: Toxoplasma will, it actually can infect human brains. It actually will.

So if you have a cat on, like an indoor outdoor cat and you change litter, you probably are infected with Toxoplasma

Nick: Oh, Joe, you didn’t tell me

Georgia: they weren’t, they warn a lot about Yeah, if you’re pregnant, you really are not supposed to change

Joe: and that’s why yeah, if it’s an indoor cat, you probably don’t have a lot to, you probably don’t have to worry unless you got a, you know, a rodent problem, then you probably do.

Especially if they’re playing with the cat. I think like in Tom and Jerry, I think Jerry was infected with Toxoplasma.

Bill_H: Definitely. That makes really

Joe: challenged Tom a lot. I mean, he was in his face

Bill_H: just left him alone. It

Joe: right. It wasn’t, it was like The Thing, it was like, what are you doing there, guy?

Come on let’s back off of him. Yeah. So Toxoplasma is [00:28:00] one there we have organisms that do gene transfer, horizontal gene transfer, so different species, so agrobacterium. So Agrobacterium is really well known in the molecular genetics community, especially with plants. It’s a bacterium that can transfer.

DNA from itself to a plant. So it’s used for a lot of modifications. So gene modification of plants, GMOs. That was the kind of breakthrough technology understanding and hijacking that for our purposes. But in the wild, it does it all the time. So it will have these kind of transfers like that. So we have things like that where you can move DNA

Bill_H: Between

Joe: different species.

You know, we have cell mimics, so there’s things that will digest other organisms and use their bits. So there’s , the sea slugs that will eat algae and then use the chloroplast to do photosynthesis in itself. And so we you know, so we have all these things. We have bits, we have all the makings of it, so we just get some funding, get in the lab, and we can do

Bill_H: it, stick ’em

Joe: you [00:29:00] know,

Nick: in the 51 film. They said something about the material of it being plant-like.

Bill_H: Yeah.

Joe: Yeah.

Nick: so they said that it could pretty much be a intelligent carrot.

you go. So is the thing a carrot?

It’s it’s a carrot.

Joe: That’s what they had. It’s eight feet tall. It had arms and legs.

Nick: I just wanted to be 

Joe: It came out. It was like, I am Groot. It’s it.

Nick: Oh,

man. Gro has a lot of, that’s

Joe: Gr fruit is a thing.

Bill_H: That was an interesting take. It was an interesting take. They really did make, they changed a lot of the story.

Nick: It was just like, why, what?

It’s coming.

Bill_H: which is funny because really I, for me, I lo I love the special effects and the thing visual guy, I draw that kind of thing all the time. Tentacles, , twisting veins and things like that. But the real scare of the story for me is the like. You know, that whole who you can’t trust anybody

Joe: Yeah. That

Georgia: It definitely

Bill_H: who is who, and that story [00:30:00] doesn’t need any special

Georgia: effects. None to be told.

Exactly. In the fifties, That’s they still could have made a very convincing version of that story without, with very few special effects. You know, they didn’t need a big monster rampaging through the hallways. They could have just, you know, hinted at a couple of things here and there, and then let your imagination go with, now who

Joe: was gonna say that in, I’m, I’ll have to look it up and put it in show notes, but Invasion of body 

Bill_H: Mm-hmm. 

Joe: That was the fifties, right? That was all in that time. Paranoia. It wasn’t the fifties. It was in the sixties, but yeah, you had that, , if it quacks like a duck, it looks like a duck, then it’s a duck. You know, you had that same idea. That’s, and then they remade it in the seventies, the Donald Sutherland movie where it had, you know, but the special effects wasn’t I think in that one, the Donald Sutherland Spock and Jeff Goldblum, they were all young.

A very young Jeff Goldblum, I believe. I don’t know if he was young. I don’t know

Georgia: They all were

Nick: than you.

Georgia: They all were pretty young. Yeah.

Joe: was the idea, the paranoia, because you work your way through that movie, who to trust, who [00:31:00] can’t you trust? And the special effects wasn’t besides the big green pods with some, you know, vines hanging off of ’em.

It wasn’t, and no big monsters 

Georgia: really. 

Joe: at the end when he opened his,

That, like you said, that gut punch of an ending that was yes. Yeah. But

Todd_T: In, in doing all the

research for these books and just knowing what was.

what had come before and not wanting to do the same.

Like I just learned a lot about him and that apparently it’s

really supposed to be about

communism. Like they’re, you know, 

Joe: Yeah. The book one, that’s right.

Todd_T: and 

Georgia: right.

Todd_T: Make it an alien 

Bill_H: Yeah. That makes 

Georgia: It was really like that post World War II kind of, and this whole idea about the Atomic Age and not understanding, the atomic bomb and all the, I think that had a big influence on that.

That’s But

Joe: it was the 51 movie was set in Alaska.

To

go with that same, that paranoia from world the post-war kind of paranoia and communism that was very different than the other ones were set in

Georgia: And [00:32:00] I love that. John Carpenter was a young boy and watched Yeah. That watched the 1951 movie, and that had such an effect on him.

He loved it. Yeah. Yeah. 

Bill_H: Yeah. Not

so much the monster, but 

Georgia: And then when he did his movie, we had Reagan. And we had the kind of, you know, and also the Cold War kind of thing. So in some ways, those. Those themes were repeated, you know? Yeah. I wanna

Bill_H: muddy the waters with one more extra story.

Georgia: Oh, please.

Bill_H: in looking back into this stuff, digging through it, right? I started checking out was it Campbell? My, my brain is shot. Yeah. 

Joe: Campbell wrote the story. 

Bill_H: He wrote a story a couple years before who goes there. He wrote a whole bunch of stories.

He’s a very prolific author before he became an editor. And there was apparently a very famous author who he either died or he quit, and the magazines asked Campbell to fill the hole by writing a similar kind of story, sort of like upbeat, humorous [00:33:00] stories about a couple of like scientists who like, you know, go out doing things.

And so he came up with these guys named Preston and Penton and Blake, and he wrote a couple of Penton and Blake Adventures, and one of them was called Brain Steelers of Mars.

and in that one it’s it is a great read. It’s pretty

Georgia: that one needs to be made into, it’s very,

Bill_H: It’s pen. Penton and Blake are these like, seriously two fisted atomic scientists who are, they’re on the run from earth.

Because it’s illegal to do atomic experiments on Earth. And they did it anyway man, because they know what they’re doing.

and they,

not only did they do it at the beginning of the store, they’ve done it, they’ve cracked it and they’ve used it to power their spaceship. So now they can get to planets that no one have been able, hadn’t been able to get to.

And they, which is good ’cause they have to get away from Earth. ’cause they’re 

on the lamb, and they land on Mars and they start seeing trees that look like trees from [00:34:00] Earth. And it’s weird. Until they go look at the trees and then the trees are different than they were when they saw them at first.

And then they run into centar. The, these are the creatures that live on Mars, these centaurs. And it turns out that those trees are another creature that lives on the planet. A shape shifting creature that, eats their children and takes their pl the place of their children. And

Joe: Wow.

Bill_H: they used to have a problem with it, obviously, but since they can’t tell the difference between the children that were real and the children that are the reproductions, they’ve stopped worrying about it.

And for generations have just lived alongside these other creatures, these mimics. And they’re just like,

Georgia: do?

Bill_H: Alright. And, but our American boys, that’s where the

Georgia: how I stopped worrying it. They’re

No,

Bill_H: we are leaving now. And it [00:35:00] becomes this huge deal where suddenly copies of Penton and Blake start showing up and they’ve gotta get away from the planet and get back to earth without these mimics coming back to earth.

And there are sections in that story. I don’t think they make it into the published version of who goes there, but there’s that, Frozen 

Todd_T: Frozen hail. 

Bill_H: There are passages in there that are almost word for word where they’re like if a thing got stranded in the desert, it could just make itself a cactus and get along just fine.

If a snake tried to bite it, it could turn itself into something that couldn’t be bitten by a snake. And, you know, he rattles off these great things that this creature could do to avoid, you know, dying and live basically anywhere. And I was like, I recognize that. I just read that.

Georgia: Oh my gosh.

Bill_H: But that was definitely where that like where he

first had that idea and was playing with it in a much more comical, but still really right, freaky way.

And then a couple years later, he dusted that off and went at it [00:36:00] from a different angle for who goes there. But I’m interested in what you think about this idea that like, all right, the things here, some of us are things. 

Georgia: Let’s just deal with it. I can’t prove you’re not, you’re

Bill_H: the thing. And if even if you are you’re just as good a Georgia as you were before,

Georgia: maybe better.

Bill_H: you know? In the Watts story, it’s that the creature is going for advancing species. It’s like taking things over and bringing in its mind, bringing the worlds together and bringing them to a higher, you know, more perfect organism. And in this story, it’s it’s perfect Camouflage in, in a, like a really disturbing way to me that I, coming to terms with that was super

Georgia: That’s the feeling you got at the end of body snatchers. You know what I mean? I don’t know,

Joe: almost, you start talking like a Ship, of Theseus kind of thing where you’re going like after some point almost doesn’t matter.

Bill_H: right?

Joe: It’s, are you still the same or have [00:37:00] you changed enough to be something different? Are you really a different Joe

Georgia: And I think 

Joe: or Bill,

Georgia: idea that we’re losing our humanity and we, you know what I mean? We don’t wanna lose our humanity,

Joe: Yeah. And you have that. I mean, that was the anime Parasite

that you had that, so that was the same thing.

Alien species comes and it infects people. If it goes through like the nose, mouth, ear, it gets to the brain and then they become. A parasite, whatever the, this alien creature, but the protagonist of the story, the alien goes into the arm ’cause it was like dying or sick, I can’t remember that. But it went into the arm and then just the arm was the alien, but the rest of the body and the brain was human.

You, you get some mixing and stuff and the episodes go through and that, that’s really it. What is humanity? What are you struggling for? And that’s that same kind of idea looking at where does, where do you draw the line between humanity and other, you know, the thing like, you know, so at some level, [00:38:00] but if you are cognitively making copies and assimilating, are you assimilating?

And then using that and maintaining that level of humanity in, in yourself Or are you know, bringing other things to the table that you have.

Todd_T: Just the themes of that

Just

were

so

reminiscent of,

colonialism, of just Oh you’re an uneducated,

heathen, 

let me introduce you to the ways of the universe.

Bill_H: Yeah. Wa that story, man, that final line in Watt’s story just blew me away. And I, he did a beautiful thing there. And that, the paragraph leading up to that, the creature is musing and sort of like contemplative and things sort of ease off and chill out a little bit. Oh, okay, this creature’s okay it’s I see.

And then bam, it’s all,

Georgia: can you see that story being adapted to a film or something visual?

Like

Bill_H: It’s all internal. And I don’t know how you would [00:39:00] do 

Georgia: so

Bill_H: Somebody could do it. Maybe somebody great or

Georgia: something. It’d have

You know? 

Bill_H: But it would be really hard to do, I feel visually, I don’t know.

What do you think?

Joe: yeah.

Todd_T: I haven’t

thought about that, but now that, yeah.

It’s it’s all it is. I mean, that’s what the, that’s

what my Illustration. challenge was with my 

additions. How, you know, it’s the alien talking and thinking and trying to understand why these people are so bad to you know,

you Woke me up.

and now you want to kill me.

What? I just wanna sh I just wanna show you what I know. Don’t know. 

I’d love to see it in a film.

Bill_H: Yeah.

one 

Joe: one of the interesting things is after The Thing assimilated somebody, let’s say Blair, ’cause he probably was the fir or to, I think Blair probably was the first fully assim assimilated. If, let’s go with that. Let’s say one of them. But why the thing. Could have spoke through Blair and communicated with the humans in some way because you would have

Nick: but humans are brash and they’ll

Joe: But [00:40:00] you could have pulled I think you, it probably could have chatted with somebody and be like, Hey, guess what? Or given, be

Bill_H: aside,

Joe: tipped off with the

Georgia: what? Instead of going crazy. Because

Joe: that’s, that was the thing about Blair and I pick on Blair because I think he was digging in and he should have been assimilated if he wasn’t.

So when he destroyed the 

Bill_H: mm-hmm. 

Joe: and went crazy and they locked him in the shed, I guess the assumption was he had not fully assimilated maybe. So he might’ve been struggling. His humanity versus a Thing in his mind, maybe he was this, his intelligence, he could actually parse that, was thinking about it and knew, oh crap, I’m infected, I’m going down.

And then when he got to the shack and was like, Hey, I’m okay, you can let me back in. Was that now the thing like, Hey, you can really trust me again. 

Bill_H: I love that

Joe: I was just

Bill_H: that part

Joe: really one of those things. It was like, Hey I hear noises and

Bill_H: I’m really much better

Joe: right. Yeah. I’m really,

Nick: oh,

Bill_H: I’m

Georgia: ao

Joe: a okay

Georgia: now buddy. 

Joe: You know. Yeah, you’re a hundred percent thing. Now. Maybe back then you were 50 50 and you were really [00:41:00] struggling against you know, this entity in you and couldn’t communicate that you just raged up because you were with the lizard brain. Might have been all that was left of the human the humanity was reduced to the lizard brain, and that was, let me protect, you know, he had all those numbers in his head, which

Bill_H: I always thought that was inter, that was possible. I don’t know. Oops. I always thought it was possible. They, because in the book they make a, they kinda make a big point about not destroying.

The radio equipment and even go so far as to talk about creating fake broadcasts back so that everyone thinks that they’re okay and nobody sends out a search party because a search party, until they deal with it one way or another, even if that means death until they deal with it,

A

search party would mean infection for the world.

So they were, there was a bunch of stuff

Georgia: So like the reporter was wanting to get out there, the

Joe: the word out.

But you, but you also had, which was really clever in a narrative device [00:42:00] in that story, was that you had the paranoia still of the Cold War and keeping secrets. So really it was like,

Georgia: you

mean of the

Joe: Yeah. In there. And so

Georgia: of the,

Joe: were they thinking of this as a weapon? Can we weaponize this?

Because you always you know, like the alien, we need to weaponize it, right? Let’s you know 

Todd_T: Go.

Bill_H: You know, we,

Joe: you know, t rexes weaponize it. You know, that’s

Nick: can I put a machine gun on it?

Write the

Joe: weapons. Can we make a weapon out of this thing? Then let’s go your green light.

Nick: Can we put a laser on a head and have it attack

Bill_H: Like 

Joe: anything. It’s man, this thing’s gonna eat everybody in the world. How can we turn into a weapon?

Bill_H: It already is like, It just, we need

Georgia: That sounds like a good weapon.

Joe: I think we can control this uncontrollable weapon. Okay. Eh, yeah. Let’s do it.

Okay. Yeah. No I wonder if that was part of that and a really nice narrative kind of setup that you had, whereas you’re in Antarctic, you know, Antarctica.

You know, you, you have people coming in probably to check on your supply drops and things like that. I had friends when I was in grad school that would go down and [00:43:00] stay at the science center there studying an Antarctica plant life.

And so they would go and stay down there for months at a time and then come back and they would talk about the supply drops and things like that. Did

Georgia: Did they ever watch The Thing while they were there?

Joe: I don’t, I didn’t

Georgia: ask

Joe: but the other thing is that alcohol was banned. So you, you weren’t allowed, I mean, people smuggled it in, I mean, like anything.

But you weren’t supposed to, it wasn’t actively encouraged. So I always think when I watch The Thing and he’s got his JB and he’s just I’m gonna go to my shack and get drunk. It’s just with his sombrero you know, it’s this kind of,

Nick: I actually do have a problem with one of the first scenes in the thing, the John Carpenter one chess, no. So when they were doing the that was funny too.

But when the Norwegian guy came in, the guy inside busted open the window to shoot him,

Joe: Oh, yeah.

Nick: Windows aren’t easy to come by out there, right? 

Joe: Yes. Yeah they

Nick: I’m assuming they would be thicker than that. You

Joe: mean they’re Swedish?

Nick: I thought it was Norwegian.

you. I was like, wait.

Joe: [00:44:00] that’s what

Nick: I was like, I watched the movie.

I know the film.

Joe: I was hoping I got the do that. But yeah. So thank you. Thank you very much.

Nick: But yeah, I’m assuming

Georgia: been that easy to

Nick: He just busts it over him with his hand and it’s 

Joe: and quick shot too. Yeah. I mean that was,

Nick: very little aiming.

Joe: Oh, aim. I mean, you know, he didn’t even do

Bill_H: you

Joe: twist, neck twist and side it up. It was just go for it. Yeah.

Bill_H: I don’t know. I would imagine they would have thicker

Joe: glass. Yes.

Georgia: Yeah. But,

also 

Nick: frowned upon to just break open a window

Joe: not open it and go out and this Yeah. I don’t 

Nick: he walks out the door, the very next scene like. Seconds later, he’s out the door.

He’s

Bill_H: He’s gotta, he’s gotta protect his men, you 

Todd_T: But there was an active shooter

situation. You don’t know what you 

Bill_H: already shot in the

Georgia: lake. Shot in the lake. The dog’s

Joe: A dog’s licking him. 

Todd_T: Yeah. 

Joe: It’s right there. You can, you get student, the count right there, like pop, all these folks are infected, but then they’re really not, like when they did the [00:45:00] blood test, which once again, can a thing, if it’s a conscious organism, can it choose to display pain or not?

Like you were saying, and you know, Watts version that it was doing these things to be a distraction. Was it really reacting to the fire or was it just putting on a display? Because now it set people up, they’re all tied to a couch and things like that. They got ’em lined up in a row and this is it, you know, distract here.

Palmer can split his head open and juice blood flies all over an aerosol. But, you know, the 

Bill_H: original story, they talk about the possibility of it leaving them sort of. As food for later, like having taken over a couple guys, it knew that they’re in the middle of nowhere and it knew that it might not see any more people for a little while.

So it could just not, it didn’t have to take over everybody. It would just take over people when it needed to eat or when it needed to do something.

Joe: eating?

It wasn’t eating, it [00:46:00] wasn’t feeding off people.

Bill_H: It’s that was their conjecture. They were still talking about it at the

Joe: Oh, I see.

Okay. How it worked.

Bill_H: yeah.

Joe: yeah. So I was like, that’s not it. It would just eat regular food. I would imagine like a can of beans, like whatever they had in the pantry,

Bill_H: or It could, we could, I mean, as you know, we use our stores of fat. Maybe, you know, it could use our stores of fat as well to,

Joe: or did it use the store as a fat to assimilate?

Fat cells are human cells. So are they now? Thing. Sell and Thing. Fan. Yeah, the thing fan, it’s the new,

it’s the new weight loss plan.

Georgia: the whole idea about the com, this communist scare and who’s a communist and who’s not. And there’s those scenes, where there’s those posters about venereal disease and who could have it.

And they’re official, like from the government do you know you know, so it like completely feeds on that home, like paranoia and that.

Joe: I love it too, that they have those [00:47:00] signs up in the base where it’s all men.

What does that say?

I mean, so little progressive there. It’s like 

I was 

gonna, I was gonna add something because we had the, the Campbell story, I was 38 in, in there. But DNA as a hereditary agent wasn’t really known until 44. So when that story was written, it still wasn’t quite, how does DNA,

How does that, how’s that functioning?

How does it act? I think people had idea, but the actual DNA molecule, and that’s a thing in the cell that’s doing the job. That was round then and I’ll put that in the show notes that date and make sure that’s right. And another movie from the nineties and The Stuff

The stuff a little bee a bee movie. And it was these guys are out mining and then they discover something’s bubbling and then they eat it for whatever reason.

Bill_H: I remember. Really? I remember very

Joe: ice cream. Yeah. It’s 

Bill_H: a homeless

Joe: no, that’s

Bill_H: stumbling around and there’s just [00:48:00] white stuff bubbling up and you Yeah. He makes that sound like, eh,

Joe: Just

Bill_H: a bite, loves it.

Starts digging it out of the ground.

Joe: They go, yeah. It’s like the whole thing. They start mining it and it’s just this random stuff coming out the ground. And it’s similar. It takes over the, it’s a parasitic kind of organism that takes over and does that. So I, that came to mind as we were talking, that you have this and then who’s who who’s infected with the stuff and who’s not.

And then it’s just out in the store. It’s like the grocery store. It’s gotta get The Stuff. There’s like a jingle in my head. I can almost hear it still if you haven’t seen The Stuff.

Georgia: It’s a cautionary tale.

Todd_T: I 

have not. 

Joe: fun watch. Like it’s just, if you’re gonna take over people, The Thing needs to do that.

Just getting ice cream, man. That’s you’re

Bill_H: and you’re in

Joe: milk, the cow’s milk. It added

Bill_H: Just

a little sugar, a little vanilla. That’s

Joe: right.

You’ve got it. You’ve got it there. 

Georgia: This

totally doesn’t have to do with The Thing, like the science of the thing or anything, but I didn’t even realize it was Howard Hawks that made

Bill_H: [00:49:00] Oh, yeah.

Georgia: And the 1951 version. And when I read that, he’s one of my favorite, I mean, he made so many movies, but Bringing Up Baby is like all time favorites. And I think to myself, how did that same person make bringing a baby? And, 

Bill_H: he was like the producer of it, but there’s a lot of talk about, he did a lot of, A lot of directing of the film. He was on set and making decisions and

Georgia: And The Big Sleep,

Bill_H: it feels like a lot, all that, like people talking over each other, you know, moving around as they talk and, you know, the even a little bit of sexual tension between the secretary and

Was the captain, you know, like that’s all very hawk and,

Georgia: Yeah. It totally, once I like it came to me, I was like, oh my gosh. And I didn’t know, but Howard Hawks was born in Goshen, Indiana. go.

I didn’t know that. So anyway, I just thought I’d throw that off. You should

Bill_H: have known it. Yeah. Hoosier you all along.

Joe: out. I mean, I really, I enjoyed a movie 51 because there’s just like [00:50:00] two botanists in there on the team.

I mean, botanists were very revered scientists back in the day. And if people don’t know, I, my PhD in botany. So that’s we’re that’s it. So

Bill_H: they’re the real smarties

Joe: when it’s there. You know,

Bill_H: I had a real question for you. The head scientist sort of makes a turn, like in the story the 

Joe: or Who Goes which story?

Bill_H: in Hawks’,

Joe: Okay. Yeah. Okay.

Bill_H: The thing with

Nick: The guy with the turtleneck, right?

Georgia: the

Bill_H: with the turtleneck, he starts off okay, he’s a scientist. You know, and the government rushes in and just starts taking over. And so you’re a little bit on his side, you know, Hey, he’s out here doing his job, trying to figure things out.

These guys come and just start telling him what to do. But then he slowly, he’s his he’s the quintessential sort of crazed scientist where like the science gets in the way of everything else till at the end he’s like telling everyone that they should all, we should all die. It’s more important for this thing to continue living so that it can be studied.

By, but my, [00:51:00] I, there was a real disconnect for me. Eh,

Joe: If

Bill_H: if you are all dead.

Nothing’s going to stop the next group of people from also being dead. Somebody’s gotta survive so the information can serve. The science is great. I love it, you know, but if you don’t have someone to pass that science on, this thing’s just gonna kill everybody, you know?

Joe: I think also in that generation of movies, the scientists, A, they knew a whole lot about the alien

With very little information. And B, they always wanted to communicate, be friendly, you know, the idea that if you travel, light years, you have the technology to travel light years away, arrive on earth, that you’ll have transcended the follies of mankind.

You must

Bill_H: be an advanced species of some kind, except, 

Joe: you know, if we humanize them then and we go, they’re gonna act just like any other advanced species. When they go somewhere new, they [00:52:00] usually go with guns a blazing. Like they don’t show up like, you know, peaceful usually. I mean, we haven’t, so I don’t know why we would expect, like what is this expectation now?

Oh, they’re gonna be so much more different out there, have seen so much more and traveled. Why are they traveling all this way to get here? You know? I mean some, there’s this exploration, so you have this thing where, and I think a lot of the scientists were like that in those movies where they were like, Hey, let’s give ’em the benefit of the doubt.

Maybe they have something they can teach us and you know, yeah, they can teach the takeover. You know, it’s I dunno if that’s like it. So I do think it’s funny that’s. You still see it and I think Mars attacks poked fun of that. Yeah, that was a very

Fun, because that was like that whole hum homage to that genre of sci-fi movies and stories that the scientists were always Hey, let’s let’s be friends.

You know, they can teach us something about something that we don’t know, but I know everything about their anatomy. Got it.

but Yeah.

Todd_T: Is an interesting Contrast

between the two, the Hawks version and the

[00:53:00] Carpenter version.

I mean, not like the original had so Many people.

I mean, it was just like this big

military base versus what, like 12 or 

Bill_H: mm-hmm. That’s

Joe: right. 

Todd_T: Carpenter’s, which just

makes it feel So much tighter,

and more

paranoid ridden.

Bill_H: Yeah. Isolated claustrophobia really 

Todd_T: Yep. 

Georgia: and also all men.

Joe: All men. Yeah. Yeah. The original the 51 movie had at least one

Bill_H: I think there

Nick: were two, and the prequel had, yeah. Two. 

Bill_H: The

pre

Joe: had the couple. Yeah. So yeah, I think they could have used a couple women there that probably would’ve, Hey, you knew you should wear different gloves, bud.

You know, 

Nick: Are you sure you wanna be looking that? What are you doing? That’s right.

Bill_H: It’s fine. It’s imitation.

Todd_T: The eraser, Ugh.

Bill_H: Yeah.

Nick: You just lick your eraser 

Todd_T: no. I was just like

making the motion

Nick: Oh, I thought you went ahead and did it anyways. I was like, you shouldn’t do that. Yeah.

Joe: Todd, we need some blood for the Petri dish test. Come on, flame. Throw it up. That’s an official test we do at the lab. That was in the videos [00:54:00] I watch. It’s if you got questions, just do the Petri dish test.

Go ahead. And so Todd as a question, as you went through and you put together these stories, I mean, did you find, what was the connection or threads and things like that? Bet you know, between the thing as a creature because they, it’s presented different in so many stories. I mean, were there threads?

, I gave my list of what it can do, maybe from a cell point of view, but from a, narrative point of view. I think that’s

Todd_T: of, was a pretty comprehensive list. Like for in doing The Things I wanted to,

I spent some time

In a phone call.

or

I asked Peter Watts a bunch of

questions and,

I. To hear a zu I think he’s a zuo biologist.

Like I, I love the the amount of science that he’s bringing to

his science fiction, like Adrian

Tchaikovsky, you know, like his living creatures just feel so

realistic. You know, it’s like my take from the stories is just like this Thing

Seems it’s like the pinnacle

of evolution even though it’s not [00:55:00] evolution. It’s you know, something different. But

you know, talking about the the distributed 

intelligence and

how would that work?

If the beast gets too big now, you’ve

got latency issues with communicating and just,

I don’t know, as an artist

like hearing, like just

learning so much about this about biology was just, I don’t know.

I found like pretty amazing. 

Joe: Yeah, no I think, I always think of fungal slime molds. 

Bill_H: I was thinking a lot about fungus this time ever. I didn’t know about it much as a kid, but since then I’ve learned a lot more and it is very fascinating and. Yeah. The,

Joe: Except from your beer drinking

Bill_H: Thing?

Joe: a lot

Bill_H: No, it’s just, it’s growing in the corner of my

Georgia: studio.

Bill_H: and don’t look at it and no one will worry.

Joe: Yeast is a a fungus for people out there in the world 

Bill_H: But I thought Watts really brought some really cool things to the table. Yeah, definitely to think about. And talking about,

The way he embodied this intelligence it seemed to have come across [00:56:00] obviously vast distances. It’s come across who knows how many planets and assimilated them or gone through them in some way.

And a big surprise for it was how different this planet was and the creatures on it. And it seems like hundreds of planets that it’s been on. It hasn’t come across that. And I was trying to wrap my head around what that other Thing was. Obviously, you know, it’s marveling at the idea of a brain, a centralized brain kept up in a inside of a skull and like being protected.

And it’s that is a weak failure point. That’s, anything’s gotta just attack that head and the whole rest of that body is done What terrible design, you know? So what’s, what is the opposite of that? What has it come across? I mean, it obviously has some way to think in every cell right? In some way.

So each cell is its own thing. Each cell has its own brain of some [00:57:00] kind. And then when they link up, they commune and share what they’ve learned when they were apart and they grow and you know, their knowledge grows that way. What does a planet of creatures. That look like. You know, what does a planet of creatures look like where there aren’t things with heads or brains where things change shape as needed for?

Joe: and do you have to be? Do you have to be multicellular? Like you could just

Bill_H: just be one big cell,

Joe: a biomass, right?

We think about bacterial mats

Interactions. There’s cheats in there. There are suppliers, they have communities, there are,

Nick: or are they just nomads?

Joe: right? And they just go around. So maybe on their planet they could be the microbes and the high, you know, the hu the quote unquote evolutionary higher organisms.

You know,

the humans 

octopuses, whatever you want. They have evolved that they maybe are gut bacteria they just live in. And it’s so they’re a gut bacteria. So they went to some planet, someone pooped, and then now they’ve infected, and now [00:58:00] it’s oh, hey, we’re free.

We can do all this stuff. That’s, if humans go to other planets, exoplanets, and we do that we’re not careful with our waste, then we would release organisms that may become you know, symbiotic like chloroplast and mitochondria so they could then go in and now co-op cells and become part of the organism.

And do that. And so these Things had to come across other intelligent species that knew how to fly spaceships and travel across the galaxy.

Nick: Didn’t you have a theory about it being connected to a

Joe: Predator? Yeah. Yeah. I had the Predator. I think any of these creatures that come to Earth, they have, was this ship that crashed, could have been, you know, a Predator ship potentially.

So you have your predators going to all these planets hopping around. Would it not hop it, it went, found the Alien. Why couldn’t it hop to a planet that had been completely assimilated by The Thing in this way? And then it became itself. So we got back in a ship, it’s going to this next They go crazy like [00:59:00] in Antarctica. You know, now it’s 13 predators in a ship that’s you know, killing each other in a crash land. They’re eight feet tall, they’re ugly looking and

Bill_H: You know,

Joe: one of ’em thaws and there you go. You got it. You know, a hundred thousand years ago, they’re whatever that, that timestamp,

Bill_H: man, you gotta think that is a heck of a trophy for a Predator

Joe: That’s right.

Bill_H: Planet size, intelligence. You know,

something 

Georgia: yeah.

Joe: yeah. Didn’t, it didn’t work out so well. Probably it’s like they’re coming back. Hey, we got it. We did it. 

Todd_T: So you’re saying there’s essentially one portal to Earth and like all these aliens, like ET went through

it 

Nick: right.

Georgia: Yeah.

Todd_T: of 

Joe: right. 

Todd_T: So they’re all, you know, they might run into each other. We could. have 

Predator against ET and that’s just gonna be 

Joe: You know, planet a

Nick: ET is gonna destroy predator. That thing is a predator in of

Joe: What’s the mini chlorine of The Thing, I mean, I mean,

Nick: Is

Joe: is there a Thing Jedi you know, out there it’s are you, I dunno, are you the are you master Jedi?

Or, you know? Yeah, no, you have that no, I think you could see the thing. I mean, if it’s out there, if [01:00:00] doesn’t take a lot, so that means if, you know, if the, let’s say The Thing ship luckily crashed into the Antarctica, but if it crashed into, 

Nick: Nebraska 

Joe: else, right? Yeah. I’m trying to think a hundred thousand years ago.

Yeah. Nebraska or some

Bill_H: would be dug up

Joe: America, or near the equator where it wasn’t frozen. It might not have died. I mean, you then you have all the biomass. So every plant, all this biomass would convert. So that means anything that came across as biomass would all of a sudden be infected. Yeah. So I mean that’s, you know, so if it just landed in an isolated jungle, all that biomass is converted.

So when you go through exploring, so all these explorers that went out looking for gold or whatever, and they didn’t come back

Bill_H: disappear

Joe: Maybe they became The Thing, they just slaughtered each

Nick: So

Joe: So you can start really spinning that off,

Bill_H: But yeah,

Joe: it crashed, landed in Antarctica, which was smart because then it froze and, you know, was resilient enough to actually be thought and then come back.

And speaking of that, I [01:01:00] had thought about some numbers.

Bill_H: of

Joe: I like thinking the

Nick: He just likes numbers.

Joe: Blair had 27,000 hours. I dunno why he doesn’t say approximately three years, but that’s about three years to infect all life. On, on Earth. And so that, you know, sounds like a lot of time, but I think just looking at it, that started going through different scenarios, the pandemics we’ve lived through now, and ones that have happened in the past.

Kind of a few different models, maybe like the one in Antarctica, you would have this infection, probably containment would happen pretty quick. It would burn itself out kinda like the Ebola. So Ebola is one of these that viruses that you get, you bleed out, you see people bleeding out, and you go, whoa, let’s get, you know, contain.

And you can actually isolate it relatively quickly.

Bill_H: Keep your pencil away from him.

Joe: It unlike, you know, a very successful virus like HIV or , chicken pox, I mean, they hang out and you get shingles later in life. I mean, right? They’re very good [01:02:00] viruses.

Sexually transmitted viruses are extremely good in humans ’cause they just hang out and do their thing.

Nick: Wait. What? Good. Why do you think Good?

I’m

Joe: they’re good at what they do.

Bill_H: doing what they

Georgia: They’re good at being viruses.

Joe: at being viruses.

Nick: I was like, they’re good virus. You know, I enjoy having

Georgia: because if the

Joe: presents itself too fast and actually then, you know,

Georgia: kills everybody and then it can spread and

Joe: and within hours, you know, someone has it, then

Georgia: it can be

Joe: to isolate.

Georgia: isolate. So

if you have 

Joe: something like COVID where it COVID was perfect ’cause it was like, I don’t know if you’re sick or not. You might be a carrier, you might be infected it, you know, have this latency period where it was like you just could have it for, you know, a week and spreading around

Bill_H: moving all over the place, dropping it

Georgia: so

Bill_H: and there and

Georgia: good means it can stick around and spread perspective easily

Joe: the human’s

Georgia: Yeah.

Joe: not from the infected.

So I had 

Todd_T: And then you’ve got, oh, and then you’ve got half of the

Population.

who’s just [01:03:00] oh, I don’t,

Joe: That’s right. 

Todd_T: not worried about that. 

Joe: Yeah. I know they’re not,

Bill_H: let’s have a party.

Joe: so I, I had, you know, there that if the outbreak is misidentified as some sort of neurological viral in this, instead of being truly The Thing that’s assimilating you start doubling every 1224 hours based on some of those assumptions earlier.

Governments are slow to respond, which we’ve seen on an action. Due to human mimicry, right? We could have it to higher top so that The Thing might infiltrate way up. Po politicians. And next thing you know, we’ve got you probably

Nick: wait, they aren’t already.

Joe: there might be mad cow. That’s the mad cow’s conspiracy, right 

Todd_T: would think they’d be better than this.

Joe: Have 50% of Earth’s population, probably 50, 60 days. And in total global assimilation, maybe nine to a hundred to 20 days, you know, a few months, you know, six months.

Bill_H: that’s not a lot.

Joe: You know, and then you would, society would collapse, you know, people would be in bunkers you would start.

But yeah, once, if biomass can be converted, [01:04:00] then the minute you start, like everything then goes all the trees. Like you’re,

Once you do that,

Nick: but what about with those all the toilet paper, tape paper people are stocking up on? I mean,

Joe: I don’t know. I’ll still be there. I don’t, I think the things would eat and still poop.

I mean, I, if they assimilate completely, I think they would use our, if, are they using our biology or are they now? You know, like you said, it’s a, I feel like in a skin suit.

Bill_H: You know,

Joe: and so that’s it. So they have a different internal structure maybe, but I’m sure everything poops. There was a book about it and everything.

Yeah. Yeah. That’s a,

Georgia: I don’t know where this is going, but 

Bill_H: Yeah,

Todd_T: Quoted Everybody Poops.

Bill_H: I

Joe: to eat. That’s right.

Georgia: the

thing to Everybody Poops though and accelerated, you would, if you get to a major city. So you land Chicago, New York, LA, Tokyo, Shanghai, some huge city doubling every four, six hours and you’re really just spreading this around.

Joe: You know, probably a billion infected you, you start getting the numbers, you know, 15, 20 days maybe total assimilation, [01:05:00] maybe 45 days. And the total biosphere collapse. You know, so you would have just complete Thing. This would be a thing, planet, know, it’s a bug planet. It’s a dead planet.

Bill_H: Like that last scene in society where

Joe: That’s right. Yeah. 

Bill_H: Flesh. A waves of flesh.

Joe: it very similar to we, we had an episode, we the grey goo model

Of, of nanoparticle kind of assimilation where you would wash over you know, and just once you have self-replicating uncontrolled assimilation of some, , very small, microscopic particle it would just take over. You wouldn’t be

Georgia: Like you said, it’s a, it’s apocalyptic.

Bill_H: But

that is also

Georgia: a vision

Bill_H: it’s not intelligent. If it is, if it’s intelligent enough to stop and just Yeah.

Joe: I

Bill_H: then that can change Things

Joe: Two things. One could be your scenario that it’s intelligent and it doesn’t really want to be all.

But the other one is maybe it is intelligent and it does want to be all right. 

Bill_H: [01:06:00] Absolutely.

Joe: Or it could be just unintelligent and just mm-hmm. 

it, you know, the thing does what the thing do, I mean, it’s 

Bill_H: That’s

Joe: you probably have three. That’s right. And you

Nick: The Thing does what the thing do love that.

Todd_T: It is I know I should stop. Just like we know we

probably shouldn’t, 

drive so much, but we do. 

Bill_H: I shouldn’t have another cookie. But you know what,

Nick: It looks so damn tasty.

Joe: down this forest, but we need a few more cows. I mean, that’s a, so that’s a that’s you have that. So I think those are but would you be able to tell the difference if you’re.

If it’s happening, Bill, would you be able to go, I think the thing’s really, so you’ll be that scientist, like I think The Thing’s intelligent I can reason with it.

Bill_H: to it. I think it likes me. Hey

Joe: Hey buddy. Hey Joe. What’s going on down there? Hey Bill. I’m doing really fine now. Let me

Nick: Let me out buddy. I’m good

Joe: maybe it’s time for me.

Todd_T: all good.

Joe: Yeah,

no. Yeah, and we, we come to the end the how the horror episodes always go a little longer, so it’s all right.

Bill_H: There’s a lot to dig into.

Joe: I know I, you know, I have a question and maybe [01:07:00] Todd you might lead us off or maybe you’ll pass it. I don’t know. But I

Nick: I’ll

Joe: the 

Nick: No, I don’t wanna answer that.

I’m good. The

Joe: Carpenter Stro Cat, and I think that’s the last scene of the 82 movie.

We’ve got childs, we got MacReady ready there, we got Max sitting there. And, you know, it’s you know, why don’t we just wait here a while and see what happens. So we have the three maybe you can say four, but pretty much three. Everyone thinks Mac is human. Right? We can argue that maybe he’s not.

And I have, so three theories. One is, Childs is a thing and there’s different reasons, and I can mention some of those if you want. Both are human, they’re just there doing their thing, or they’re both The Thing. I think those are the three scenarios that I guess you could say Childs is human and Mac is the thing, but that never, no one ever says that.

I don’t know why, but we could throw four in there

Just for fun. And if there I’m missing one, just go and throw it in there. But yeah, I mean, [01:08:00] what do we think there? 

Todd_T: I’ve

always thought

that Childs was the

thing and that Mac wasn’t you know, just, he’s the protagonist He’s the man of bronze essentially but I

know, Yeah.

I know. There’s all sorts of. theories.

and 

Joe: Yep. Yeah. Bill, what do you got? You not thought you 

Bill_H: Over the years I’ve vacillated back and forth, , I’ve even thought about Mac being The Thing, ? Yeah. But I like the questions. I like the possibility, , the ambiguity is great for me. It’s taken me a while to come to that when I was a kid.

Ambiguity really got on my nerves, but as I got older I started to see how great. The ambiguity makes it stick.

Georgia: I think that’s the beauty of that ending. Yeah.

Bill_H: You keep questioning it. You can’t because it’s

Georgia: and everybody can have a different Yeah. You know what I mean? You could talk about it. It’s,

Bill_H: and you can trot out why you think McCready’s not the thing or why Childs is and you know, and Yeah, 

Georgia: And [01:09:00] I think you can, and you all, you all get the feeling no matter who you think The Thing is, we’re screwed.

Bill_H: I still, there

Joe: that, I just gave

Georgia: numbers there. 50 days, man.

Bill_H: Yeah.

Joe: Because, you know, some scientists are gonna bring it back you know, bring these people.

That’s, you know what, yeah. I think we can make a weapon. Georgia, do you have an opinion or are you’re

Georgia: No I really don’t know, but I actually agree. I like the fact that you don’t

Joe: you wanna keep it ambiguous, Nick, you got something, you

Nick: I think they both are.

both

I really do. But it’s like still dormant enough to where they’re fighting. But they’re like, oh,

Joe: the Blair? He the early Blair.

Nick: Early Blair right now

know exactly you know, where? it’s dormant, but yeah. It’s there. They’re gonna go and, know, we got 50 days, let’s figure out what we’re doing with that. Yeah.

Georgia: Get out that survival guide.

Bill_H: I read that there was a couple different endings filmed. Yeah. And that they tried them out [01:10:00] in a couple test audiences too. They filmed one where it jumps ahead and a plane shows up and McCready’s there, and it was like, thanks guys. I’m real hungry.

You know, let’s get outta here.

Joe: Need to eat

there it is. The response wasn’t enough to the good endings, the happy endings to like. Say, this is definitely the one we should go with. So they were like, let’s stick with the ambiguous one, because

Bill_H: A little more fun. People can mull over it, you But studios are not cool with things

Nick: like,

Joe: they 

Bill_H: not today.

Joe: No. You gotta,

Bill_H: When you spend,

Joe: want tighten it up, this

Bill_H: spend millions of dollars on it, you definitely have to, you know, stick it. And

Joe: unless you got part two coming 

Bill_H: yeah. Then 

Joe: Then you can do

Bill_H: you can do whatever you

Joe: It’s like, all right.

You know,

Georgia: what about you?

Joe: Yeah, so I’m almost think that they’re both human, 

Nick: really. 

Joe: come out and I set this up earlier, there’s a thing running around out there. I don’t think he killed it. I don’t, I think he killed the Big Blair thing.

But I think there [01:11:00] was still some other Thing out there.

So I, I do think there’s two humans and one Thing still out, out in the wild. And I think Mac. I think m knew, knows that. And he’s sitting there and I think Childs, also has his suspicions and they’re just gonna go and they know it’s the end. And those two protagonists, the heroes that was, you know, Todd mentioned that they’re there already.

You know, neither one wants to really go down,

Bill_H: They know

Joe: they’re going down. Yeah. And so it’s can they stay long enough to warn somebody? Can they stay long enough to go there’s something still out here and you should leave it alone.

Bill_H: That’s a good question. How do you do that? 

Joe: Yeah. You’ve 

Bill_H: You’ve got two men in this situation. Everything is destroyed.

Everything’s

Joe: gonna die. I mean, it’s

Georgia: and

Nick: what did you guys

Georgia: they’re in and

Bill_H: Anna at best, a couple of hours before they freeze to death. How do you warn the people that are coming

Joe: right. That’s right. That’s right.

Bill_H: to 

Todd_T: You pee your message in the 

snow. 

Joe: right.

Bill_H: That’s right.

Todd_T: Do not.[01:12:00] 

Joe: Yeah. That’s in English and in Swedish

Todd_T: Yes. 

Georgia: it was 

Bill_H: the thing.

Joe: in a region. 

Nick: Alright.

I do have one more thing before we wrap up.

Joe: You wanna how many Big Macs it takes? No,

Nick: Yeah 

Joe: I do, I did have that. But

Bill_H: Oh boy.

Nick: don’t. The dude who at the Norwegian base who slid his wrist and the blood froze. Is that possible for it to freeze going down like that?

Joe: Depending on how cold Yeah. No, you can, yeah. It will freeze. You can do it, but yeah. So

Bill_H: what I, okay. What I didn’t think is possible. His throat is 

Nick: cut.

Exactly.

Bill_H: That’s okay.

That’s 

Joe: Hey you potentially could cut your 

Nick: both wrist and

Joe: your throat. Yeah, I think you could.

Bill_H: That is dedication.

Joe: That is a lot of

Nick: it’s 

Joe: Yeah,

Nick: I wanna be dead. Yeah.

Joe: yeah.

Georgia: wanna make sure.

Todd_T: is, there’s no

hesitation marks

Nick: no, the problem 

Bill_H: is 

Joe: that they, the, [01:13:00] this Norwegian base, they didn’t get as far along in their science as Blair did

Bill_H: And was it? Yeah. That, that oh, every particle can do this because then you would know blood letting isn’t the way to

go, isn’t gonna help you.

Joe: That you don’t need, you know, you’re still gonna be there pretty much freeze the death. And, you know, that was interesting that they had it

Bill_H: I know we’re running along

Joe: Or I think the other thing, did he kill himself not to become the thing?

Bill_H: That makes

Joe: That was probably

Bill_H: I’ve seen what’s happening and I want to be out of

That’s something that the movie doesn’t really do a lot with, but I was really interesting in the book is this sort of how does the cells communicate so that it, if it’s gonna become McCready, it’s got to very quickly. Know what McCready knows to pass itself off, right? It’s not just a dog or a lion.

Someone’s gonna say something to it and it’s gotta answer back.

Joe: But I think that’s that whole thing about time that it needs to

Georgia: at what point? At what point it may. And is

Joe: the brain or is it just the body? Because if your body is just being converted and not your head, 

Bill_H: taking [01:14:00] over 

Joe: thinking you, and you can still answer questions about your life and everything.

But once The Thing takes over, you’re right. What amount of memories does it get? What command of memories does it have? Things like that. Which some, someone say it, it has

Bill_H: It’s got everything. 

Joe: Yep. Okay. You were saying what was your 

Bill_H: so in the book, there’s a lot of talk, there’s talks about nightmares, people before they’re infected,

Just being in proximity to it are having, starting to have nightmares and have weird feelings and images in their heads and stuff. There’s this. Possible psychic

Joe: Yeah, that’s right.

Bill_H: Yeah, that’s right. You know, that is a very interesting piece that is really hard to do in a film, , but does show up.

The idea is in that a Prince of Darkness Carpenter’s next apocalypse movie, you know, where they’re like getting the dreams from the future, this idea that it’s psychic and even when it’s frozen there, it’s still active mentally in some way. Even if it’s not doing it, it’s it could be [01:15:00] dreaming and we are receiving it’s alien dreams and just driving everybody a little crazy, you know?

Joe: Yeah. That some psychic kind of ability. Yeah. I also think at that time, like ESP was like huge. I mean, that was like, it was like, we’re gonna weaponize what’s

Todd_T: Oh, 

Bill_H: Gonna

Todd_T: yep. 

Joe: I think

That was the talk like that they’re gonna do LSD 

Todd_T: Randys. 

Joe: Yeah. LSD and you know, and ESP that, that was it. That was like the, that was the rage. We’re gonna develop all these new age weapons, but yeah, no, that’s yeah, but you’re right. The book and the 51 movie both had that kind of psychological telepathy. Yeah.

That you have this higher organism that can manipulate across mental distance and, you know, have this kind of control. But yeah.

Bill_H: it was great in this story how like this, all these guys, these scientists were just like. If it’s anything like the look in its face, it’s evil, then we must destroy it. Yes. Look at that face. It’s the face of pure Evil. they were so [01:16:00] quick to judge that thing. Look at those eyes.

The look in his eyes. If I’d known that was in those eyes, I would’ve just destroyed it.

Joe: Yeah.

we would’ve blew it up.

Bill_H: Wow. Okay guys. Yikes.

Joe: Yeah. I mean it is The Thing evil, right?

That’s it. Exactly.

Bill_H: all judgment.

Todd_T: You know,

Joe: Cool. Yeah, so probably wind down a little bit here. You guys wanna get anything cool coming out or anything? Folks, you know, they’re all hyper excited. 

Todd_T: I’m 

Georgia: Around 

Todd_T: yeah, so I just I just sailed to Antarctica in

February and so I’m working on some books from that. And

one of them is basically a, I have a goal to now that I’ve made an,

addition of Who Goes There and The Things I’m writing and gonna illustrate essentially like my own story

in that 

universe. 

And it’s going to take place in the early 19 hundreds. So it’s sailing ships

and people crashing on shore and stumbling into [01:17:00] things weird.

Georgia: Oh wow. 

That’s awesome. Yeah, you guys have to

Joe: out and your website is,

Todd_T: Angel bomb.com.

Joe: It is. So yeah, go check it out. Check out

Georgia: that’s amazing.

Joe: Really fabulous. Work the, you know, letter press work and things like that. You know.

Nick: Yeah. You absolutely have to check out these books.

They are, they’re phenomenal. So fricking cool.

Bill_H: There are pieces of art and awesome stories on your shelf.

Joe: Bill

when you got anything coming up

Bill_H: have anything particularly interesting going on. I’m sorry. Just your average, you know. No. We’ve got some talk about the new cryptic closet coming up, but that’s not for another, that’ll be out next October,

Joe: gotta have a, we gotta have a thing s story in there, right?

Bill_H: that would be great. You know, I missed my chance when we did the 3D story. In, in, in one of these books here, The Thing is revealed by some UV light, right? Yeah. Is it in the thing? 

Joe: yep. The Things, yep. 

Bill_H: It’s awesome.

It’s invisible to the naked eye. You black, [01:18:00] you put the UV light on it and you can see it.

Joe: Yeah.

Georgia: Yeah.

Bill_H: We did a 3D issue Yeah. That I wrote a story for, but I just didn’t have the time to work on, and me thinking was like, how can I do this differently than just.

And a 3D story I gotta always make it harder on myself for no particular

Joe: You gotta do

that. That’s what artist 

Bill_H: so I, I wrote a story ab about a interdimensional infection where a character becomes infected by something that he can’t perceive.

And the idea was 

Todd_T: Ooh. 

Bill_H: When you, the red and blue would be printed on the page, you know? Yeah. But you wouldn’t be able to like, suss out what was going on there with the naked eye. And when you put on the glasses, it would like, you know,

If you look through one lens, you could see things normally and through the other lens you could see that he’s actually covered in invisible interdimensional parasites.

Georgia: I love that.

Bill_H: And I’m working on

Georgia: put on the damn glasses. Yeah, another

Joe: Carpenter [01:19:00] favorite. They Live, yeah.

Georgia: Yeah, exactly.

Joe: Put on the

Bill_H: Fantastic.

Joe: You are gonna wear these glasses. Yeah. Cool.

Nick: Thank you again guys, for joining us.

Bill_H: Thanks so much for having me 

Todd_T: you. Thanks for having me. 

Joe: Yeah.

Bill_H: reason to rewatch these movies definitely. I mean, any final thoughts, Todd? Bill, as we come, we’re gonna wrap up on anything we missed or you wanted to really say about The Thing and The Thing universe.

I’m much better now. I’m fine. I can come back in.

Todd_T: Clark.

Clark. 

Bill_H: right. Yeah.

Georgia: It’s

Joe: Sweeds. Cool. You have, we have me, Joe, you got Nick.

We got Nick Georgia. We got Georgia, we got Bill, we got Todd and

Nick: we went down some hole. Are you sure we went the hole? Wait, I think we went the 

Georgia: hole. Which hole? Which hole?

Joe: Who? Who Goes There

Bill_H: Is that next week?

The witch [01:20:00] hole

Nick: That’s next year’s witch hole.

Bill_H: Oh, I want to be on that one. Yeah.

Joe: We love y’all. Stay safe, stay curious.

Nick: Bye-bye. Cheers.

Fantastic 4 series: Episode 38: The Thing: Strong Skin 

Click the link to listen or search Rabbit Hole of Research where you find your other podcasts:
EP38: Ben Grimm and The Thing About Skin
NYT bestselling author Jonathan Maberry joins us to explore the handwavium, biology, and symbolism behind strong skin—from the Thing’s rocky dermis to memory tattoos and the scars that shape identity.

Transcript:

joe: [00:00:00] Hey,
welcome to the Rabbit Hole of Research. We’re down here in the basement studio with another exciting episode in our Fantastic four
series. We’ll be focusing
a little bit on the thing and
all things strong, tough skin. As usual, we have the whole crewhere. You have me, Joe, you got
geo: Nick, we’ve gotNick and Georgia.
joe: We’ve got Georgia.
geo: And
joe: have a specialguest with us.
geo: And for our
joe: we
geo: let the guestsintroduce themselves.
joe: Please.
Jonathan: Hi, I’mJonathan Mayberry. I’m a New York Times bestselling author. Multiple genres. Iwrite horror, science fiction, fantasy, whatever. And also a comic book writerwrote for Marvel for a bunch of years, dark Horse, IDW doing some freelanceprojects. Now they’re a lot of fun. I also edit Weird Tales magazine and keepmy myself pretty immersed in the pop culture world, which is my home space.
My, that’s my comfort zone.
joe: Yeah. Awesome. No,it should be fun. Hopefully we can fit [00:01:00]you, fit right in here with our witty banter at times. I don’t know. So you
nick: I do have tosay that I’ve read a lot of your stuff that I did not realize was yours untilabout a month ago. I was like, I read that. Oh wait, I know his stuff. It wasjust
Jonathan: get a lotof that from folks at events too. And that, that’s cool. It’s always a readingthis stuff that’s what matters most, but. When I was at the the world premiereevent for the Black Panther, Wakanda forever I not only did were peoplesurprised that I had written anything that became part of that movie.
Everybody there was surprised I was white including RyanCoogler. Ryan Coogler had came up to me in the, at the after party. He, you’rewhite. I’m like, I am. Oh my God. He had no idea. He thought I was black. Interms of talking about skin, that’s interesting.
joe: Yeah.
geo: There you go.That’s a great segue.
nick: Yeah. Sousually
joe: I
geo: have
joe: a definition thatget us grounded and I have a
geo: list
joe: so I’ll do thedefinition what is skin. [00:02:00] But I dohave a special list for Jonathan because I know he likes facts and he alwayshas posts on social media.
If you follow him on all the different flavors of social media,he has. Tell me something new or something. I don’t know. So
nick: I have
geo: a list and
joe: I’ll see how manyof those facts, but I’ll
geo: start with thedefinition to get us started. What is skin? Skin is biological armor.
joe: It’s a sensorinterface, a site of cultural
geo: inscription
joe: and a metaphor foridentity.
It’s the most visible and tactile representation of self and infiction, a canvas onto which transformation, trauma and power are projected. SoI think that’s
Jonathan: Wow. Nicelyphrased. I like that.
joe: you.
nick: Yeah. And so wewere,
geo: as I said,talking
joe: the FantasticFour.
geo: And,
joe: We already had thefirst episode on a Fantastic four come out.
And but just a recap. It’s a fictional
superhero team uh, by Marvel,
created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby first appeared in Fantasticfour, number 1, 19 61 Marvel
comics. [00:03:00] consideredMarvel’s first superhero team, or the
first family and helped establish a more human,
flawed,
family driven style that defined Marvel storytelling.
Ben was one of the members of that team. He was Reed Richard’scollege roommate and former football star.
Jonathan: Yep.
joe: And Ben had he, hewas
geo: after a
joe: trip
illegal
and or
A unscripted trip into space they
were bombarded by
cosmic rays Ben got disfigured and he was given this kind ofrocky, orange,
scaly skin
that was superhuman strength impenetrable and had all thesekind of nearly imper impervious to damage and things like that.
So yeah, that’s the character.
nick: Yeah. So I dohave to say that it is always so interesting seeing him in the comics becausethey tend to show the strength of his skin. ’cause are, [00:04:00] we’re considering it skin. Yes. I would
geo: consider
joe: skin. Yes. As the,
probably the
outer later the dermis was modified in some way, but,
nick: Yeah. And it’salways so fascinating ’cause I was reading an issue I’ll have to put it in theshow notes where they it was they were pulling him apart and like you just sawall of his skin. It looked like a gum being pulled. And it was just like, whoa.Like the amount of pain that has to be, I’m assuming it’s like a scab thatwould just be like.
Jonathan: Yeah. One,one that’s not ready to fall off, but they’re trying to pull it.
nick: exactly. Andthen I told him, I’m like, oh it’s, yeah. Fantastic. I love that.
Jonathan: And Ialways loved when Kirby would show me him getting a really hard impact. One ofthe ways they would use to emphasize the impact is pieces of rock would beflying off of him.
joe: Yeah.
geo: another
Jonathan: would beblood from a, a busted nose. But for him it was always pieces of rock fallingoff and that kind of defined how hard he was being hit because he’s impervious.
But somebody could [00:05:00]do that, at least to him,
joe: and knock off bitsof skin and or his outer structure, which is interesting. And thinking abouthow that would actually form I think NICU hit on it with and scar tissue wasone that, that immediately came to my mind that as he was bombarded was, wasthat now some scarification and you have this kind of, , in terms of scars, youget fibrous tissue that forms as you get the scar. So is that now
geo: been
joe: modified as DNA?And so you get this kind of overgrowth and then calcification and then almostkind of mineralization there that would form this kind of outer exterior.
then
as you as you were just pointing out, Jonathan, that as it getsdamaged, bits gets knocked off, but presumably is regenerated.
And so that means this is some
geo: active
joe: process thathappens.
Jonathan: And hisskin would have to be, his rock skin would have to have to be at least porousor something. Otherwise he would,
nick: Thanks.
Jonathan: the theskin’s the most important breathing apparatus next to our lungs. And [00:06:00] so he would need that. And funny ’causeI’ve had a conversation about this with Stan Lee years ago at the Houston ComicPalooza, I think it was.
And buttress, we’re talking about different characters and howthe, somehow the conversation come up is how they would get medical treatment.
nick: Oh,
Jonathan: Ben Grimmhad beautiful white teeth. how dentist worked on. Were his teeth set in gums orwere they set in
joe: Rock.
Jonathan: A couple ofus were asking questions of Lee and he is we didn’t think that far.
joe: I mean, Nails,Nonas fingernails.
Yeah. I mean you, you have all of those external
besides breathing and pores, you also have tactile sensation. Askin is our communication to our environment.
So if you lose that you lose a major sense. It’s almost likebeing blind or deaf or any losing any other senses. So that is something that Idon’t know if they cover that in any comic line or,
Jonathan: they touchon it because there are times, even though when he, especially in the earlyFantastic four comics, he and Johnny were always in a a baiting war. They’realways trying to get [00:07:00] you right intoeach other. And sometimes Johnny would try to scorch him and he would, he wouldact, he would run away, he would react to it so he could feel pain, feelpressure but his skin.
It was like being on the other side of a fireproof garment. Youfeel the heat, you just don’t get the actual firm. So that might be where theywere going with it if they even thought that far. But, because presuming thathe, he, something like that could exist.
And the version of it we’re seeing in the most recent trailersfits the old Ben Graham a little more.
How I envision him. He’s more fluid, he is more flexible. It’sless like a rock man trying to move than a man who made a malleable rock. Andit must be malleable.
If he’s going to reach
joe: right?
geo: Yeah.
nick: Be able to grabthings.
joe: Yeah. You have tobe flexible still. And that’s part of it, that when this transformationhappened, when
geo: Yeah.
Jonathan: theflexibility can’t just be the subdermal layer because if he was stretching, youwould see gaps as, so it must be the rock itself rocket [00:08:00] that is stretching like an alligator skin and so on,which looks armored, but it still has a degree of flexibility. ’cause otherwisethe thing couldn’t operate couldn’t swim or anything else.
nick: that’s actuallya really good point. Like putting it towards like an alligator skin. I wouldn’thave even thought of that.
Jonathan: Actuallywhere I’ve always gone with the things skin because it has to move and know.You mentioned that I’m a research or knowledge junkie. I am a knowledge junk. Iwas a kid I, that’s what I was trying to figure out how he did that, where theHulk got his extra mass from, because Bruce was maybe 150 pounds and the Hulk.
So there, I knew just enough about science even as a kid. Tohave questions. And some of those I did get to ask, Stan, because I got to knowhim pretty well last few years of his life. And also some of the other folkswho worked on Fantastic Four. I had conversations with John Byrne about it.
J Byrne was more of the, everything’s elastic, just reallytough thing. And I mentioned to him about I called it crocodile skin, but thesame alligator skin, same thing. [00:09:00] Andhe said that, that’s probably exactly what it’s like that just thicker.
joe: Yeah.
nick: A
joe: more adorable or
geo: yeah,
joe: Or calcified insome way.
So you would have that, some combination, maybe armadilloscaling also would, it has some level of flexibility in It’s the way it’sjoined. And
geo: also
Jonathan: he smiles,he laughs, he frowns. All of those require elastic skin of the facial musclesand skin.
joe: And a muscle.Yeah. You, the muscle control of all that’s just not you.
You still have to maintain that. Yeah. Yeah. That
Jonathan: I.
nick: Yeah.
Jonathan: like thataspect of the thing of that, that concept of the thing being more elastic,more, it makes him more human and also makes him more of a scarified victim ofwhat’s going on, rather than a transformed into a monster thing. Because I, hewas always about the monster and he wasn’t a monster.
He was a victim of a reaction, a mutated skin reaction tosomething, it’s a cosmic race. It’s unfair and sad that he became, the [00:10:00] ugly one.
nick: I think you hiton a good thing right there where he does get identified as a monster and seenpeople with different deformities do get, back then people were like, oh,they’re either had a curse put on them or something.
It was just always, this is a monster.
Jonathan: yeah. Andthen we’re leaning in a little bit to the paranoia that was pretty common inthe fifties and sixties, anyone who wasn’t us. That, that other thing, plus,it’s the beginning of the civil rights era. Era, so you have a lot of that,it’s not us thing but that’s also, again, Kirby and Lee leaning into, justbecause it looks different, doesn’t make it not human.
I think there was a little bit of that in there too, which theyexplored with the X-Men and some other things. But I love the fact that BenGrimm is a good guy and I hated the fact that, and so many of the early comics,he’d be walking on the street maybe with a slouch hat and a car up.
Somebody would see him and it would be terrified. First off,why about issue two? They should know he exists.
geo: Right
Jonathan: It, they,Lee and Kurt kept wanting to make the point. And it’s funny [00:11:00] because the point they were making is whatwe in, in, in the novel trade it’s one of the rookie mistakes of assuming thereader doesn’t remember from the last episode to detail play down and keepsneeding to be reinforced.
I can understand it in Fantastic Four ’cause it was the firstMarvel comic, but they kept it going well into I think the forties issue,forties and in that
Still regarded as a monster. And I think even I, I’m Monster Ithink was maybe one of the titles or this man, this monster that was the
So that he’s still trying to get back to being human ’cause hestill is has now bought into the, people see me as a monster, therefore I amone.
geo: Yeah. That
Jonathan: It’s a sad
joe: and that, thatseemed like some of that storyline, if we think about just his identity, thathe was just sweet, caring person, but then he had this external kind of, it wasthis play maybe oversimplification
of these, traits that he had.
And you get that [00:12:00] andI you brought up. Just to segue a little bit to the civil rights movement thingis Luke Cage then in the, who came out, who also then was given tough skinunder different circumstances, this coerced, experimental activity. And thenthe racist the warden or police officer screwed with the
instrumentation.
then he was given, the super strong literally impenetrable kindof skin. So this very tough skin. And so that was a very different. So he wasvery normal on the outside, but society, at, seen him as a monster. So it’sthis this area.
Jonathan: also do youguys, guys know who John Lewis was, right?
nick: Yeah.
geo: Yeah. Yeah.
joe: yes.
Jonathan: So he did acomic called a March for IDW. We did a signing, together at one of, at ComicConone year. And we were talking, and Luke Cage was I think just coming on TV atthe time somewhere around the the Luke Cage era on Netflix.
And we were talking, and he’s in his theory on the, you LukeCage having the armored skin, is that black men, [00:13:00]black people had to be so bulletproof in terms of their reactions to what isbeing
About. That, what they did to Luke, what Luke represented was,no matter what you say, you can’t hurt me.
Was that kind of an approach that was at least John Lewis’stake, and I valid one
joe: Yeah. No, I,
geo: But
Jonathan: but again,I don’t know if the creators had that specifically in mind. It’s like withGeorge Romero in Night of Living Dead. I just wanna jump
A second, because in Ge Night of Living Dead, you had a blackman who was the only strong, intelligent
geo: right.
joe: And
Jonathan: and all thereviewers said, my God, this was this incredible civil rights movie.
It’s about racism. It wasn’t, he was the only good actor whoauditioned.
joe: Yeah,
Jonathan: right,George Romero saw those reactions and from then on leaned into that as theinterpretation of even that first movie. I think I would agree Marvel may becounting its own design aesthetic when, they gave some of these characters,these qualities.
I think they [00:14:00] may,I’m hoping at least on some subliminal level, they were trying to make thatkind of of equitable statement, about just because we are different does notmean we are bad or wrong or evil or monsters or anything. And, Marvel had themore progressive vibe than DC anyway, so I think that may have been, aningredient in the soup at least.
joe: Yeah. No, yeah, Ithink I totally agree with that and see that from that perspective especiallygrowing up in, in America as a a. Person of color, a black man that, that it issomething that you go out in the world and you have to be
as
good or better than your white counterparts at times.
And sometimes you’re the only, and so then you have that weightgoing out into the world, so that, that is also, both. And Luke Cage’scharacter was a large man, almost a John Henry kind of figure. So it wasn’tlike they took a skinny, black man and said, okay you’re now
nick: but superskinny.[00:15:00]
joe: he was
geo: a right,
joe: He was really a,he was
nick: intimidatingfigure. Yeah, that’s
joe: right. For, so
geo: and it wasliterally having tough skin. Literally
joe: skin. And,
geo: And, being ableto deal with
joe: right. And
geo: All, and skin,and
joe: Touch upon it alittle bit. But, enslaved people were used in experiments on skin andparticularly testing of thick skin.
So there was this
geo: theory
joe: that, theseenslaved people didn’t feel pain because they had thicker hides like animals.And so you had
geo: a
joe: number of slaveowners who would do these experiments and torturous experiments and go throughit. So that was it. And those myths persist even today.
That, with pain medication and thing that, that black peopledon’t need, as much, or can tolerate more pain because of these these kind ofracist ideals that, that were put out
nick: and that havecontinued,
joe: has continued.Yeah.
geo: Yeah.
Jonathan: there,there was a a poem that may Angelou read at Temple University years ago, [00:16:00] and one of the lines in it, and I’ve triedto find this online, is just because I survived being whipped didn’t mean Iliked it.
joe: Yeah.
Jonathan: That andthat
geo: kind
Jonathan: speaks alittle bit to this, just because they survived the things that people put themthrough, didn’t mean they were invulnerable.
It meant they, they were committed to survival
It should have been admired rather than looked at as a freak ofnature, thing. But,
joe: No, definitely.Yep. No.
Jonathan: I just
wanna say one more thing about Fantastic Four. I don’t know ifyou know this story, Joe, but that comic first of off, it was my favorite comicand this was the very first comic I ever
joe: Wow. There it is.
nick: Oh damn.
geo: Oh wow.
Jonathan: Bought thatwhen I was a kid.
I was nine years old.
geo: Wow.
Jonathan: The thingabout Fantastic Four is I, my background had a lot to do with skin in thisregard. My father, who was a terrible human being, ran the local chapter of theKKK. So I grew up in a household dominated by racism in a neighborhood inPhiladelphia that was known as White Town, USA.
That was the [00:17:00]nickname of my neighborhood. It’s still rated as the worst neighborhood inPhiladelphia, even, it’s yay team. And it was
joe: which neighborhooddid you grow up in? Kente. Okay. I was gonna try to guess, but I didn’t
Jonathan: never beenthere. If a black family would move in the neighborhood, their house would befirebombed,
joe: Yeah. Wow.
Jonathan: terribleplace.
So when an issue, was it 52 that black Panther showed up? Whenthat character f because I’ve been, even though this was the first, fantasy 466 was the first comic I bought. I’ve been reading comics since I was a littlekid. My brother gave me all his comics before he went off to Vietnam.
So I had, fantasy four, going back to issue two and issue 52 ofFantasy four introduced a black character who was nobody’s sidekick. He was no,he was not comic relief. He was not a start to, he was the king of his ownnation. He was a scientist and he was a superhero. And of course, my fatherwould see that comic, he’d rip it up.
And, I would always rebuy them. And then later on in seventhgrade, I actually went to a, my middle school librarian and brought a co [00:18:00] one of the copies one of the comics in andsaid my father, she knew who my father was. Everybody did, my father hates thiscomic. I don’t really know why.
’cause I was, I hadn’t met any people of color up until seventhgrade. My neighbor was white. And she looked at the issue and said thatparticular, she was about apartheid. I’m like, what? What is that? And sheexplained it and she said do you know about the Jim Crow laws? I’m like, no.
And she said, do you know who Martin Luther King was? I said,yeah, he was this, and unfortunately, I used a racial epithet because that’swhat we were trained to use. I said, he was a bad guy who was killed my father,had to throw a party. And she said, sit down. For two and a half hours.
She gave me a crash course in what intolerance and racism areall about.
nick: the
Jonathan: And theissue that I brought in was interesting because it speaks to the topic hereabout skin. It was the issue where Tal is arrested in the Marvel universeversion of South Africa. I forget what the, what they used to call it in thecomics, but he was arrested, he was in prison.
And Ben and Johnny go to [00:19:00]break him out. Ben is orange, brown, Johnny when he is a is red a brown man anda red man helped a black man out of a prison. That is not an accident. EvenSue. Nowhere in sight.
joe: Yeah.
Jonathan: And it flewright over the head of a lot of people. But, my my librarian, she said, this islike very clear.
It’s, this is about, the races who have to stick togetherbecause they have a greater enemy. But they’re still people and they should bere regarded based on their actions and, content of their soul or quality ofsoul. But it was so interesting that they had, I think it was Ro Roy Thomasmaybe wrote that episode over that issue, but it was so clear, brown, red andblack.
joe: Wow.
geo: Yeah.
joe: Yeah.
Jonathan: threedifferent skin tones that were really politically charged at the time, withthat 1971 or so. And it, because it could, they could float it by people in acomic, because you could talk about different skin colors, different skin typesin comics because they’re superheroes or super villain.
geo: Right?
Jonathan: But therewas a group, [00:20:00] there was a percentageof the fan base that was getting it.
joe: Yeah. That’s good.I know
Jonathan: I got ahint of it there. And from then on my views and my father’s views split justsay on an epic level.
geo: wow.
joe: Yes. No,
nick: So I have toask how.
joe: how.
nick: Did he knowthat you wrote for Black Panther and all this? He
Jonathan: He was, hedied before that. But had started studying martial arts on the sly when I wassick because, it was a very bad household to grow up. And my four sisters and Iwere pretty badly, abused. And when I was 14, he and I had it out. We had afight. And from that point on he just say there were no more meetings of theKKK in our house.
And he did not make any statements or put his hands on anyone.But
He did not live long enough to see my Marvel comic stays. SoI’m hoping that he’s in his graves spinning it about war. None. Not only did Iwrite Black Panther, I wrote Black Panther, but the female lead, so I wrote afeminist Black
geo: Wow.
Jonathan: probablyhis bones have probably exploded.[00:21:00]
geo: Wow.
Jonathan: I’m okaywith that.
joe: Yeah.
nick: That is sointeresting to hear like that Is your upbringing like being able to come fromthat kind of background to writing some fantastic stories about minority leadsthat, that’s so in
Jonathan: of thatstory. I got the job at Marvel for this particular thing ’cause Reggie Hu,who’d been writing Black Panther. I was already done. I had done a MarvelZombies, I did a Punisher on Wolverine thing, for Marvel by that point. Andthey were Reggie was thinking of stepping down.
He had been the writer for Black Panther. And they were lookingfor someone to replace him. And the assumption was they would, he would pick ablack writer which makes perfect sense. But he heard me talk on the radio,talking about my childhood and how the Black Panther was the pivotal momentwhere my life began splitting away from my father’s racism.
So he went to bat for me at Marvel and got me the gig. And alsobecause I had spent 35 years of my adult life teaching women’s self-defense, hedecided to [00:22:00] give me an extra littlebonus. He said, look, the last six issues of my run, we’re gonna turn Sureyinto the panther. Why don’t you come and post, write that storyline.
I’ll do the maid storyline, but major storyline. But you do theSurey storyline, so you’ll be the first person to put her in the armor and thenyou’ll pick up the comic after that. That’s what we did.
geo: Wow, that’samazing.
Jonathan: I’m still,I, Reggie was also at the Black Panther, Wakanda forever and we were joking.
He said, that radio, if you hadn’t done that radio interview, alot of this wouldn’t be happening right now. But, it was so surreal.
joe: Yeah,
geo: Wow. So
joe: I do want to touchon one of your characters who has skin
as part of their storyline, and that’s Monk and that,
geo: yeah.
nick: You had to
geo: know that wascoming.
Jonathan: actually, Ididn’t I didn’t, but I’m glad you brought up. Monk is one of my favorite
geo: It’s, I love himso much. Glip is like, one of my all time favorite novels. Yeah.
joe: Georgia had, she
geo: and that’sprobably why I
joe: on our chalk boardin our kitchen, and she
geo: Did you, Ialready read
joe: book. And I wasI’ve [00:23:00] been reading your stuff for awhile. And Georgia picked up that book ’cause it was just laying in, in thehouse. And then she was like, oh, this is did you read this line?
I was like, I read the whole book. Yes, I
geo: know.
Jonathan: Monkappears in two other novels and in a short story collection. He’s in Inc.
joe: Yep. Yeah, sure.
Jonathan: BurnedShine, the latest Joe Ledger
joe: Yep.
nick: If you can seethey geeked out and had all your
Jonathan: yeah, thereyou go. And of course, monk Addison’s
geo: That’s right.Yeah.
Jonathan: But hestarted off as a comic book character.
Actually.
geo: Oh, wow.
Jonathan: at onepoint IDW was going to do a shared horror universe, kinda like the DC and theMarvels with the a shared, so it was gonna be Steve Niles Joe Hill, myself, oneor two other guys. We were gonna create monsters that lived in the same world,but were also like heroic monsters.
And we were all ready to go. And then there was a managementchange at Marvel at the IDW rather than never happened. So I took the characterback and I decided to make a short story out of him. And it intended to be aone-off. But as soon as I start writing, I just love the concept of someone whois [00:24:00] haunted by what he does and bythe, the faces of dead people on his
And their ghosts never leave him,
joe: and
Jonathan: are we’regetting a little bit of interest in for film. VIN Diesels reading Ink rightnow.
nick: Oh,
joe: That would be,that, that would be incredible. I can
nick: totally see.That’s really cool.
geo: Oh
joe: and to folks whoare listening you should go read one of the, we’ll put in the show notes, oneof the many stories that Monk is in, but he’s a, an a private
Jonathan: I couldBrenda, he’s a former special ops soldier who then became a private militarycontractor, burned out, went on the pilgrims road to find who he was. And hefound out like he got a tattoo at one point. And he realized that when thetattoo was completed, it was a face of someone.
He was able to then relive their death. And there, there was alittle girl that was murdered and he is able not only relive her death, but seewhat she saw when she was dying, which gave him clues to be able to go out andfind the killers. And that became his road to, it’s hard to call it salvation’cause he isn’t going out killing people.
But at the [00:25:00] samepoint, he’s, it’s a, he’s doing something that is a redemption story, not areligious story, but a redemption
And he has all faces all over him of all these murder victims.And when the tattoo is completed, he, relieves the death, goes finds the killerand if he can stop this person, not as revenge, but to prevent the person fromdoing more killing, and he takes the guy off the board, but the ghost that kindof hired him to do this is always with him.
So he’s surrounded by all the ghosts of the people that he’s,that were murdered and he killed their killers, but they’re always with himlike 24 7. And it, it’s a tough life, but he’s one of my favorite characters.There’s a lot of the thing in him in that with the thing. You always know wherehis moral compass is pointing. He’s not a conflicted character. He is notreally a gray area of character. Reed gets real gray at times. The thing, if hehas your back’s covered. Monk is the same way. Monk’s a dangerous guy. He’s notnecessarily [00:26:00] friendly, he’s not, I’mnot even sure he is likable, for the people who know him. But if he has yourback,
joe: Yeah.
Jonathan: You’reokay. You’re gonna be okay. He will not ever hurt the innocent. And that’sthere’s, so there’s a little bit of Ben Grimm in him for sure.
joe: yeah,
geo: Wow.
joe: it’s That ideathat the tattoos are speaking through him, to him, I was looking up some stufffor this episode and preparing is the Skin Ego it’s this kind of theory Dieter,I. And Zoey and suggests that the skin serves as a metaphorical container for theego and provides a sense of boundary and containment for psychic content. TheSkin Ego is like the physical skin, and it’s the boundary that separatesindividual from the external world and also holds to psychic apparatus togetherbody boundaries reflecting kind of psychological boundaries. So it, it was indigging around I was, trying to make the science of monk work a little.
nick: bit.
geo: So I,
Jonathan: Yeah,actually I need to find that thing you were talking about, I [00:27:00] needed to read that. It sounds like it’sreally the right thing for me because if we’re gonna be pitching Monk for filmor tv, I want to be able to build a pitch that really digs deep into thispsychology of it. Most people don’t know this, but Vin Diesel’s an actuallyreally well read individual.
nick: Oh yeah,
joe: Yeah,
Jonathan: He doesn’talways play those types of characters. Unlike Johnny Bernthal plays ThePunisher, the two of them look like together. Based on some of the charactersthey played looks like together, they, collectively of the IQ of about 60. Butin reality, both really good, down to earth nice guys.
Some of the press isn’t always this. I think the press defines’em by their characters more than by them.
But
joe: VIN Diesel, beforethe Fast
geo: Series,
joe: was in BoilerRoom, which I thought was just an incredible movie where it wasn’t Muscle andBraun. It was a very, it was a, a. Thinking movie, I guess if we’re gonnaclassify
nick: Guns
geo: versus,
joe: Yeah.
But I, that was some of his early stuff before he got into theaction. And he found this stride [00:28:00]and, I think that happens. Like he’s a beefy dude and he plays those rolesreally well, but Yeah.
Jonathan: hilariousthough that he’s a DD dungeon master, though.
geo: Yep.
joe: Oh yeah.
nick: Yeah. And he’sa giant nerd.
geo: Oh, wow. Yeah,
Jonathan: actuallyhas a cloak with the hood when he plays
geo: wow.
joe: Wow.
nick: I’ve read that
Jonathan: Becausehe’s one and Henry CA’s one too, and you got these two guys who are, they’redefined a lot by their ability to punch things
Yet, they’re both book nerds, fantasy nerds, pop culture nerdsmakes me like them a lot more,
geo: I think that’sperfect for playing Monk. Because he is such a tough guy, but is introspectiveand do you know what I mean? So that just Yeah.
Jonathan: Sure. Andmonk is trying to find, there, there’s a, I have a long game with the characterof Monk. He’s trying to find his way to the fire zone, which is referenced in acouple different works. And it’s a book I will be actually writing called TheFire Zone that, that kind of TERs together.
But he, he wants peace,
joe: Yeah.
Jonathan: he’s doneso much harm in his life. As a, first not asking questions, who he [00:29:00] has to shoot when he was wearing a uniformand asking even fewer questions when he was a private military contractor, hehas, to quote black Widow a lot of red in his ledger and he
And, that isn’t usually done by doing pretty stuff. But alsohe’s good at it and he knows he’s good at it. And there’s a burden there too.When somebody is good at something, even if it’s something that hurts them, butit benefits other people. It’s hard to lay down your sword and shield on thatone.
nick: Yeah,
joe: No, that’s good.Now,
geo: monk also, it’snot just about getting the tattoos and having the ghosts, it’s also what’s inthe, it’s the actual blood, right?
Of,
Jonathan: Yeah. Bloodis mixed with holy water and tattoo ink to create these these tattoos. And hisbest friend Patty Cakes is the tattoo artist. It was her daughter that wasmurdered and that was his first, first of these tattoos. It’s,
joe: I think I thinkonly one of it I, as I’ve heard you talk about this and you do not have atattoo, Jonathan, is that right? Or do you, okay.
geo: Yeah.
joe: You’re like me.
geo: I don’t have,but
Jonathan: We’re lessthan a month [00:30:00] away from me being agrandfather
nick:congratulations.
geo: Oh, wow.
Jonathan: thanks. My,my son and his fiance are, are expecting and the baby’s gonna be named Orion,
geo: Oh, nice.
joe: Yeah.
Jonathan: so afterthe baby’s born and healthy and mama’s healthy and everything else. Sam, my sonand I are gonna go out and get Orion constellation tattoos.
joe: Awesome.
nick: cool. Verycool. Honestly, it just feels like a cat scratch.
joe: So I
nick: was gonna say,Nick has, I have multiple, yeah. It, oh, you got that thick skin right here.
joe: Oh boy.
nick: There,
joe: now
Jonathan: it’s beenpunctured enough times. I used to be a bodyguard, so I had been stabbed withice pick screwdrivers, knives chopped in the shoulder with a meat cleaver andet.
nick: o yeah.
joe: Yeah. So
nick: So
joe: I,
Jonathan: I have, myskin is not impervious Wish. It was really
joe: If
geo: it was, you wentto get medical
joe: That’s always init. You
nick: brought that upearlier
joe: how do you get,how do you get treated if you need
geo: someone
nick: needs to goinside of
geo: you to
joe: fix something.That’s
Jonathan: I thinkthat’s a missed opportunity for Marvel to do a TV series about, ’cause theyhave [00:31:00] damage control and they had thenight nurse. But I think a clinic for superheroes would be
joe: Yeah.
geo: In Luke Cage,they tried to, they were trying to Netflix. They got
joe: shot with thebullet
nick: that
joe: the kind ofexploding drill tip.
geo: And then she wastrying to get,
joe: she took ’em backto the
geo: original Right.
joe: and cooked them inthe,
geo: there was a,
joe: whole clam.
And it’s interesting ’cause mollus
geo: actually, thereare
joe: that have ironkind of formation in their foot. So in the, so they can scrape algae off ofrocks and fer those out there, mullis are like octopuses cuttlefish clams.Those are classified as mollus.
And they have
geo: shell
joe: they have a footthat can come out and they. They can do work. And so that’s one. And then theyhave, there’s another mole that has like teeth, like kind of iron teeth tocrack shells and things like that. So it is a,
Are some real world. And so that was the idea there that,that’s, and the show, they played on that, that’s what was in this soup.
And they were gonna heat ’em up and then that would [00:32:00] loosen the structure, the molecularstructure, which a
nick: little, a lotof hand waving
joe: as a, so
nick: I was like, oh,
joe: does this work?
geo: But yeah,
joe: it was they didcover
geo: that. At leastthey, at least they tried to cover it. Yeah. Tried attempt to
joe: explain it.
But,
Jonathan: Yeah. Andthey used the night nurse character, I’m forgetting her, Claire, they usedClaire as,
joe: Yep. Yep.
Jonathan: as thego-to person for Daredevil and so
geo: Yeah.
Jonathan: I wouldlove to have seen that become a secret department within the hospital sheworked
I might pitch it to Marvel
joe: yeah.
geo: I like that.
Jonathan: doctorfriends. We could some people who would advise me, so
nick: that would be areally cool, like just medical series. Yes. Yeah,
joe: if you’re lookingfor a writer, then, happy to write something for you.
geo: Nonetheless
nick: the other thingI was
joe: say about thetattoos and you, another thing I was looking up was all of the kind of dermalsensors.
I, I didn’t really know a lot about that till I was looking itup, but the MIT had a project where they were using bio sensitive inks in therethat was a reactive to glucose, pH, sodium kind of to monitor [00:33:00] health . And so this tattoo ink was biowas actually bio censored.
And so you have this kind of.
Jonathan: They’reworking on diabetics to be able to like literally flash a little warning when,things like that. Cancer sensors and other things. And also the, one of thethings they’re, they’ve been talking about, I don’t know if they’ve gottenthere quite yet, is an implant that will sense the onset of seizures of onekind or another, and then transmit immediately to 9 1
Or to the, the contact person for, care. It’s a great idea. Andthat’s the kind of body mods I’m okay with. I’m not a big fan of body mod forthe most part, but that one, those sort of things, when science is used for theright thing,
Right? I’m
joe: Yep.
Jonathan: doing upone of my upcoming Joe Ledger novels is going to deal with cybernetics and allof its different good and bad phases.
And I started doing some research and man, it’s amazing what’sunder RD right now. And it’s freaky that we’re so much further along than Ithought we were. A lot of the stuff is there, it’s just a matter of getting theright funding, right grants and [00:34:00]getting it past people who don’t want that kind of thing attached to them.
They’ll find with going out and getting a barcode or a QR codetattooed on them, not something, that’s not stylish, but their health.
joe: Yeah. I think theso at the University of Chicago where I do research at and work I’m part of thethe cube, which is a quantum NSF funded facility where they’re
geo: where they’re
joe: trying to developquantum sensors for biological applications like that. And so that is, it’sreally, so I was just in a meeting because I’m a biologist, so I go and try tointerface with the physicist and chemists talk about applications.
So that’s where. I come in,
geo: I know
joe: enough to talkabout qubits and, how entanglement works, but I’m not, that is not myexpertise. But and going over how these sensors can work to report informationout is super important. So yeah it’s a fascinating as I got into that and hearabout some of the things and, ’cause it’s like, how do we get this
geo: thing that
joe: in cells on aPetri dish now into a body or what’s the [00:35:00]mechanism?
And, it’s
geo: the, you’reright
joe: it is
geo: some of the
joe: stuff that’s insci-fi and, it’s now making its way and it’s that’s more real than you think,
Jonathan: sciencefiction has always been one of the reasons they called it speculative fictionor, it’s a lot of people looking forward. The cell phones, we’re clearlyinspired by the communicators on Star Trek, but we do more, much more now. Thecell’s far more, it’s like the communicator, the tri-quarter, about 15 otherthings.
In our phone now, but that’s where the idea came from for itsstructure. And a lot of other things, what I grew up reading, the reprints, theban of reprints of the old doc Savage novels, man of bronze, if you’ve everread any of those. They published 175 of them published in the thirties andforties.
And he always had advanced technology that he developed and alot of it’s stuff we have now.
geo: Wow. Yeah.Contact
Jonathan: lensesanswering machines, planes that, this is 1934 planes that flew 500 mile anhour.
Have that. All so many of the things that, that Lester Dent,who wrote most of the novels, put in the stories for [00:36:00]things that people were just saying, wouldn’t it be cool if
writers threw that stuff into fiction and some of the peoplereading that fiction grew up three scientists.
joe: Yes. That’s theway it works sometimes.
geo: Yeah.
Jonathan: one of mybest friends, one of my best friends, Ronald Coleman, who’s now actually acharacter, ongoing character in my Joe Ledger stories.
But he’s a molecular biologist, stem cell scientist. And I’mconstantly talking to him about wouldn’t it be cool if we could do this?
And sometimes he’s yeah we did that in
joe: Yeah.
Jonathan: Or we’reall come up with, wouldn’t it be cool if we could do this? Would this even bepossible? He is not yet, but maybe by the time the book is out, because I knowworking on grants for that, I love science and I love the fact that keepsmoving forward.
What I don’t like is that there are groups that, that aretaking this science, and of course the biggest funding is for DARPA and thingslike that. The military research,
nick: Yeah.
joe: Yeah.
Jonathan: I’ve talkedto those guys a bunch of times and yeah, some scary nerds.
joe: right?
nick: The best kind,scary nerds. So I do have a question, Joe. How likely is it to have [00:37:00] skin? Like the thing, because I know thereis that syndrome where
joe: yeah,
nick: guy had thetree skin,
joe: Your skin can cal,calcification of skin and I’m trying to think of the disorders.
Like FFAP, FOP or something
nick: I think it’ssomething around there. Yeah. And so
geo: your,
joe: yeah, you justhave this kind of all your fibrous tissues begin to calcify and over calcifyinto bony structures. The problem with that, you’d have to make this next leapbecause as we talked about earlier, how do you make that flexible, right?
Because those folks usually are fairly, they come very stiff intheir structure and they, and rigid. So you need to, now how do you make that.So almost, it can’t be an internal structure. It has to be external in terms ofthe way you would form it. So that would have to be either a new fourth skinlayers
nick: created
geo: that
joe: then give you thisextra properties and or your dermis would now excrete something some material, [00:38:00] either, one of these iron
geo: sulfide kind of
joe: compounds or couldbe even calcified.
We talked about diatoms in I think the plant episode. And sowhere they produce silicate or coral, they produce a calcium kind of deposit.So there are organisms that do excrete these materials. And you could havethese snails That’s right, snail shells, right? So there are these bio your
nick: teeth
joe: a biomaterial,right?
And so there’s a lot of folks Working on that. I know some ofthose folks, and it’s fascinating because the interface between biology and,this kind of this biomaterial is unique and, difficult to reproduce. That’s whyyou go in for dental work or implants stay, they don’t stay all the time orthey, it’s a interesting field there.
But yeah I
Jonathan: One of theconceits within comics though on that topic though, is that when, they neverconsidered that a lot of these mu mutations would be detrimental to
joe: Yes. Yep. Yes.
Jonathan: withinskin, the [00:39:00] way it is, he would be a,a patient in a hospital somewhere. He would be walking around punching the.
nick: Yes. When wetalked about
joe: the cosmic rays inthemselves would be pretty damaging, so you would have to be a mutant alreadyto tolerate the cosmic race from not just being a cancer patient. You’re right.He would be in those the, instead of tough skin, it would just have tumors allover him and, a ruined thyroid because he’s been,
geo: On your chest,
joe: You’re now beendevastated by cosmic race unshielded and exposed to cosmic race.
Which, you know, so Yeah. It you’re right. About that.
nick: Yeah, so
joe: And so
geo: it
Jonathan: It doescreate a, an opening though for stories to be told that would explain it. Andjust like there have been a lot of folks that come along and tried to explainthe physics of Star Trek or Star
geo: right.
Jonathan: On thephysics of Superman. There are plenty of books out there where, scientists likeyourself are trying to say, okay, if that is
joe: right. That’sright
Jonathan: then how.
I played with this, actually not on, on the skin subject, but Idid a book called Zombie, CSU, where I [00:40:00]interviewed a couple hundred people in the real world about what would happenif zombies were real. If zombies were here, inarguably here, I would beresearch, react, respond, whatever. And, talked to scientists, talk to, all thedifferent types of scientists military and everyone else, everyone has atheory, but it would be, it would need to be a new there wouldn’t have to bethere.
Somebody have to be, throw a hell of a lot of money intoresearch to finding out how these people are not dying as a result of thesechanges. And I think that opens up a lot of storytelling possibility for comicstoo. But I would love to do an anthology, a prose anthology where scientistswrite superhero stories that explain the superheroes.
joe: Yeah.
geo: No.
nick: there you
geo: there you go.No,
Jonathan: I do know abunch of scientists, writers.
joe: Yeah.
geo: Yeah,
joe: Yeah. right. Yes.
Jonathan: Some inthis room.
geo: that’s
nick: That’s what
joe: that’s what we tryto do on the podcast. Nick could throw me that question. I
geo: know. Yeah, it’s
joe: I
geo: do think,
joe: and you talk aboutsome of those things, like you have other heroes Colossus who has, he puts themetal armor on and you talk about your skin [00:41:00]breathing, he’d have to take that off pretty quick and, or is there some othermechanism that he’s using to actually dissipate heat and things like that.
So you do have these kind of these characters who have thisthese abilities. And then to form a metallic skin and then take it away alsorequire some level of. Rapid metabolism. And on this, on the podcast, we alwaystry to explain things in terms of how many Big Macs would you have to eat tocompensate for the caloric load of doing some of these modifications quickly.
Jonathan: Yeah.
joe: that’s right.Yeah.
geo: Which no talks
joe: the calories, sothat’s why
Jonathan: Yeah withColossus, it would make a little more sense if instead of it just being steel,it was plates that,
joe: Yes.
Jonathan: Under whichair could get through
joe: Yes.
Jonathan: Evaporationhappen and so on. But again, the comic book writers are not scientists. We’rein the 21st century. We’re 25 years into century.
It’s time to level up and let the nerds come out to play andmake the comics make sense, which I think would bring [00:42:00]in whole group of readers because a lot of people dismiss comics foolishly assaying that they’re not literature, they’re not good, but they are, they’rereally
geo: Absolutely.
Jonathan: if, youcould use comics as a way to teach stem, STEM
joe: I agree.
geo: Definitely
Jonathan: much,there’s a lot of good science there.
But there’s also what if science and what if science is whatdrives science forward?
joe: We talk aboutzombies. That was so that how I got into, I always wanted to do science,education and outreach. And I realized a lot of adults don’t know anythingabout science. And I had a friend who was doing these art and science talks,and he approached me with this idea and he said, oh, I’m doing these talks, butno one shows up to hear about the science lectures.
And I was like, oh. So this was some years ago. And it’s how Idiscovered your view because I was I said I’m a big zombie fan and that’s kindsof zombies and how it works. So I started reading everyone at, had the zombiestuff and kind of where they’re at. Where’s the literature at? All the [00:43:00] movies.
And so I pitched to my friend, I said, Hey, we should do theart and science to science of zombies. And he looks at me and who, and he ofthe sciences also, he goes, but no one does research on zombies.
geo: I go, I know,but if you want people to show up, then
joe: talk aboutsomething that’s super fun and then we’ll sneak science in on em.
And I’m a cell biologist, so we’ll do all cell biology and kindof talk. And it was, we filled this art gallery up with people. It was standingroom only. And he was like, wow, this really worked. And so now as he does it Ithink he’s stopped or taking a pause, but every time he does it, he has somelittle hook like that now.
And I’m like, yeah, let’s keeping going. And so that was then,how we arrived to this podcast was at that idea, but that was the start of it.Zombies was the the fun and figuring out how you would get the infection eventand then what would happen after that. In fast zombies.
nick: you love fastzombies.
Jonathan: yeah. In mydead at night series, I worked with scientists to come up with a parasitedriven one. Toxic plasma, green jewel wasp, whole bunch of other
And
joe: sometimes[00:44:00]
geo: you,
Jonathan: You can geta certain distance toward doability, toward, actual rea realizing it for some,if you talk to the right scientist and get them to really, put their mind toit, you get a lot further and closer to it than is comfortable sometimes.
But you’re talking
geo: right
Jonathan: the artgallery thing here in San Diego. We have the Fleet Center, which is a sciencecenter attached to the the astronomy center. And I was on a panel there. Theyhad also been trying to do panels and nobody was showing up to them. So becauseComic-Con is in San Diego, they decided to start bringing in comics people totalk to scientists.
The very first panel where I met the scientist I mentionedearlier, Dr. Ronald Coleman. It was Kevin Eastman, the artist who co-createdthe Ninja Turtles and myself. We were comic creators. And then the two, therewas a var Virologist who’s sadly named, I’m blanking on Nancy something, Ican’t remember her last name.
And Ronald Coleman, who’s, said a stem cell scientist. And wewere asking them questions and they were, they they were asking us questions.The [00:45:00] audience was asking questions.Kevin, the artist from Ninja Turtles, he wa he was like, goo or whatever. So wejust, we need, we needed a thing.
We just call it that. That’s total there. Or my V wars thing, Iwanted it to be a genetic disorder that was latent. And, as melting polar rice,softened permafrost, all diseases were. And I, that’s an idea I had before thatactually started happening, by
geo: Oh boy.
Jonathan: Before wegot to the popular press I subscribed to some science newsletters and I read anarticle back in 2010 about melting rice, releasing old bacteria and possiblyviruses.
And I’m like. That’s scary as hell. Let me write a book,
geo: right?
Jonathan: not the TVwars,
geo: Yeah.
Jonathan: But
joe: yeah. Yeah.
Jonathan: thezombies, the fun thing about zombies is, each individual thing it does, can beexplained by nature. Like the fact that it has a lower metabolism be, so itdoesn’t rot as much. There are animals, the ground squirrel the, I forget thename of the frog, that, that freezes solid every year and then falls, withoutthe tissue damage because of the way [00:46:00]the sugars,
That exists.
The if the motor cortex was working. Or even on a minimallevel, the zombie could walk, bite, chew, swallow. Without the motor of cortex,it couldn’t, unless there’s respiration, a zombie couldn’t moan. And we knowzombies moan. You can make an argument that zombies are not dead, they’re notalive, they’re living dead.
A third state of existence based on a great a rate ofmetabolism so greatly reduced that they appear dead to the point where theirouter tissues become necrotic, but they’re still not actually dead.
joe: It’s
geo: yeah, I hadthought
joe: In my own head andwe’re getting off, I gonna get back to skin ’cause we’re gonna have to closethe episode a little bit.
But yeah I had a dual infection event. One of the mind, butalso, people forget about the second brain and that’s our gut, which is justfilled with bacteria.
So as our control systems, entropy starts to take over, thenthat would be your driving force. And those bacteria then would have somepreservation of [00:47:00] self. Especially ifthe brain was now infected by something else, it might not have as tight ofcontrol over the system, so you can then have this dual function.
That also explains why in movies you have this, not everyone’sinfected by a splatter of blood or something like that, because you need bothparts to become infected. And so you could
geo: be primed.
joe: And then onceyou’re primed and maybe you have a death event,
geo: and now
joe: the brain parasitecan take over, and then the gut ones can now go, oh, you know what?
There’s no more control. Everything’s leaky, leaky gutsyndrome. We
geo: can get inthere, we can now invade.
joe: And we now we canhave this kind of two brain system in control. And hence why, your movementsare shambling and things like that. Not necessarily because your coronation isbad, but because you your, you have two.
Competing entities in inside one, one body. But
geo: That’s
nick: Anotherepisode, another rabbit
geo: hole.
joe: But
Jonathan: That one
nick: you’re in,
joe: you’re in,
nick: so I do wanna,
geo: I’m gonna touchon my
joe: [00:48:00] fun fact list. I promise a list and I’dlike to deliver,
geo: but
nick: There’s awebsite
joe: maybe you’refamiliar with it. I just learned about it. It’s called bio numbers.
geo: and it’s this
joe: fun website, atleast I think it’s
geo: fun where
nick: you
joe: search fordifferent topics and it will give you these kind of biology relevant numbers.
And so how many proteins are inside of a cell or
nick: how,
geo: so
joe: I put in, aboutskin and then it has the paper reference, which then I clicked on links becausethat’s what I do. And
nick: So it was just
geo: fun. Things
joe: and it saved mesome time on this weight
geo: of skin.
joe: On average isabout nine pounds or 4.1 kilograms for the folks who wanna go to metric.
The
nick: number of
joe: skin cells, about1 billion on average number of bacteria in skin, about 1 trillion. So that’s alot of bacteria, which we didn’t even talk about. The skin kind of, how wouldbend skin the bacterial that keeps that, that
geo: are very
joe: and beneficial?How are they living?
How are they getting along?
nick: Do you think hehas to [00:49:00] moisturize?
geo: when he gets
joe: fungal infection,like ringworm underneath those
geo: rocks. Yeah.What kind of lotion does he use?
nick: foot, athlete’sfoot there?
Jonathan: a story.Somebody needs to write that story.
nick: Yeah. I wouldjust assume the human torch is just Hey, I’ll get that. Hold on.
geo: 90% of the humanbody
joe: covered in hair. Ididn’t realize that, but that was
geo: how much? 90%.90%.
nick: Is that it?Density of
joe: procars, soprocars are bacteria. So these are organisms without a nucleus versuseukaryotes, which we are ourselves are eukaryotic.
The density of procars in the skin of humans. And this is cellsper centimeter squared. It’s about a thousand to 10,000 and you’re growing andunder your arm, it’s about a million. Per centimeter, per centimeter squared,or that’s about 0.78 inches squared for those who think in inches.
So that was and
geo: and this allcame from that one website,
joe: website. The
geo: term of
joe: in your entireepidermis is about 26 to [00:50:00] 27 days. Soyou got, so yeah, so you,
nick: it’s
geo: oh, all that,
nick: that dried dead
joe: skin you’regenerating, that’s you’re danner.
So that’s another for Ben. How’s he dealing with
nick: I thought itwould just be rock dust. No, that’s
geo: to us. That’s
Jonathan: that when,I wish that when skin generated, it would take scars away. ’cause I got
geo: yeah. So
joe: that was those aresome fun. And then I, the concentration on microbes in human gut, I just hadgot, I, that one was there and that’s in the tens of billions of cells and,number of human cells.
’cause it, this was something I always think about are we morebacteria than than human? But the number of total number of human cells in yourbody is about 10 to 30 trillion. So you’re, so you got about hundreds ofbillions of. Bacteria on you, in you, but you still are a little more human.
Just,
nick: Slightly morehuman than bacteria.
geo: Yeah.
nick: I don’t,
Jonathan: quitehuman. But
joe: yeah, that’sright.
geo: So there you go.There’s
Jonathan: I thinkthey’re more bacteria,
joe: so those are somefun, just some fun skin facts and others,
geo: But yeah, bio
joe: I can,
Jonathan: Oh, I’mdefinitely gonna be hitting that. I wrote [00:51:00]it down.
joe: yeah. Yeah.
geo: It’s a fun,
joe: and when I learnedof it, I was in a lecture and someone had these cool numbers and I went, I waslike, how do you get these, did you just guess at this stuff?
And they were like, no, there’s this website, bio numbers. Andthe first thing I did when I got back to my office pile numbers,
Jonathan: I love thatthere is nerd porn for scientists too.
nick: it exists.
joe: Like we, we keepit secret. It’s our
nick: own little
Jonathan: Like nerdporn for writers is the TV troops website. If you ever been to TV troops,
geo: oh,
Jonathan: that, allof the tropes of everything and a
joe: in there.
nick: Interesting.
joe: Yeah.
Jonathan: days on it.I,
joe: Wow.
Jonathan: So much ofmy stuff’s on there and I, somebody said, oh, you’re on, I saw you on TV trope.
I’m like. TV tropes when there’s a whole bunch of my stuff andthey’re breaking witch tropes and which variations of tropes are used and soon. But I love the, that’s fun. I gotta grab that because, sometimes when ascientist in a story wants to, as Bob, that sort of thing when they’re infodumpy moment, you do want your details.
My science guy I normally go to, he [00:52:00]actually does work a day job. But so I have to catch him when he’s available.
geo: Yeah,
joe: you go. You canhave some numbers to throw out there
geo: and the paperreferences so
joe: you can look it upand see where to get the numbers. ’cause it is it was interesting. So there wasa lot of cool things in there, but yeah.
There you go. Yeah. So I
Jonathan: I knowwe’ve just about run outta time, but is there one, was there another topic onskin that we need to go back to that we didn’t cover?
geo: I
joe: do you guys,unless
geo: you havesomething
joe: you want to do,
nick: please. I havea whole list of
Jonathan: the
geo: We have another,yeah.
Jonathan: Yeah. Youmentioned the human torch
joe: Yep.
nick: yep.
Jonathan: how thehell does he not dehydrate? Like
joe: That’s right.
geo: So we’ll have,
joe: we’re gonna do anepisode on all the Fantastic Fours.
Jonathan: Okay.
joe: have,
geo: we actually
joe: are gonna have aDr. David Pincus from University of Chicago on for that episode. And so hejoined us for actually the permafrost episode,
geo: Was
nick: which was
joe: of the funniest
geo: episodes.
joe: yeah he kind ofstudies, the impact of environmental changes on organisms short term and longterm.
And one of the things [00:53:00]is heat stress and heat shock. So I think it, I
geo: so that’ll be agreat question for him.
joe: it would be. Yeah.We’ll pose that to
geo: him.
Jonathan: Ice Man.Ice Man
nick: Iceman. Yeah,that’s
joe: right now,
geo: Man. Oh yeah.
joe: Yes. So how doeshe live in that ice state? That’s a whole nother, that’s another episode Ithink.
nick: And movingthose arms with ice on him.
joe: without cracking.Yes.
geo: How’s he stayflexible?
Jonathan: I have, Ijust have this idea that somewhere there’s a DARPA lab where a couple of guysare trying to figure out how to make the sup, make the Fantastic Four
nick: Right.
joe: Yes.
nick: I’m in
geo: Cosmic Rays
joe: is not the answer.I’m gonna go right there.
geo: That’s,
nick: We can’t rollthat out yet, Joe. I will.
Jonathan: actually,one of the funny things is guys have seen Night of Living Dead, right? The
joe: yes.
nick: Yes, of course.
Jonathan: So one, oneof the conceits there is that the major theory in the first film is thatradiation from returning space probe. George Romero was a huge fan of theFantastic Four, and that was his nod to the
joe: interesting. Wow.
Jonathan: though onespace probe returning does not explain global, I [00:54:00]busted George a lot on this because,
geo: Neither livingDead. Was
joe: it truly global orwas it local? Just in Western Pennsylvania, because that was that clear
Jonathan: wanted itto be global because people were talking about it in Washington and other
joe: Okay. Yeah. Imight’ve been on the radio. Yep.
Jonathan: clearlywas, but the first one, he was the first one he actually expected it to be,defeated.
It was never intent to be a series, but he immediately, decidedto go further with it. His next film actually explored another aspect of it,the Crazies,
nick: Oh yeah. Of
joe: the
geo: I love thecrazies.
Jonathan: rage
joe: Yeah. That’sright.
Jonathan: That wewouldn’t have 28 weeks, 28 days
joe: That’s right. No,that’s exactly right.
Jonathan: genres,
joe: Yes. The crazieswas it. Yeah. Yeah. But
Jonathan: but Iactually wrote dead of Night because I wanted to as a, like a thank you note toGeorge Romero, how he and I became friends.
Actually, he read the book and loved it. We became friends. Wedid an anthology together. But I couldn’t stand that. The science made no sensein the book, in the movie. It me, 10 years old, it bugged me.
geo: right? Yeah.
Jonathan: The thing,the thing, his skin the [00:55:00] Hulk, hismass Reed Richards, every bodily function when he’s stretching.
joe: right. We have,we’re gonna have a MD on to Maria do at Northwestern University is gonna be onthat episode. So yeah, we’re gonna have, we’re gonna get into a little bit morescience. So the first. Was it Sue, we had a comic critic in review to open up theseries and now we’ve, we have you, Jonathan, on skin and yeah.
Then we have a couple scientists and a MD coming in to, toround out the fences of force. Yeah. So we’ll
Jonathan: befollowing these episodes. This is speaking to my nerdvana
geo: Yeah.
joe: yeah. No
geo: Science forweirdos.
joe: Science forweirdos is what someone told me. We, someone, we were out and someone said, oh,
geo: you do that
joe: And they go, yeah.It’s like we, I’ve been listening to it, it’s like science for weirdos andthat’s my thing, and
nick: I’m like,
joe: oh, I kinda likethat.
geo: It’s
nick: I
Jonathan: I, I thinkthat is dead on. Yeah. That’s, yeah.
geo: yeah. It’s beenjust
joe: a greatconversation
nick: thank you somuch for joining us.
geo: Go ahead and [00:56:00] plugs
joe: anything? You havesome new stuff coming out. I know for sure. So it’s,
Jonathan: yeah, I gotI, I’m, I got a lot of stuff going. I always have a lot of stuff coming out. Iwrote
geo: I saw your lastpost that you were outta
Jonathan: novel everythree minutes. Yeah.
joe: it said
geo: your brain wasoutta words.
nick: Yeah.
Jonathan: was, butI’ve already started the next novel.
nick: Novel,
joe: Congratulations.That’s awesome. Your inspiration to us young novelists
Jonathan: am I have agraphic novel coming out in June Joe Ledger and Violin Hearts and Minds, whichis a comic original story. Ba is set in my Joe Ledger world. Crystal lake isputting that out. And last year I had a really fun one was Godzilla versusKullu Comic.
geo: Oh, wow.
joe: Yep.
Jonathan: Comic orcome on games. But next up for me is the next Necro tech book deep Space Book,crafting Horror.
And we are in discussions with an anime company in Japan
joe: Cool.
Jonathan: based onthat series. Giant Me, mech Robots that Are Shape-Shifting piloted by the Ghostof Dead Pilots.
nick: Oh, damn.
joe: Yeah.
geo: Wow.
Jonathan: [00:57:00] the book that I just finished the otherday was the third in that series.
joe: That’s cool.
Jonathan: I love thefact I’m leaning more and more into science fiction these days.
I’ve got two different science fiction series running now. I.And it’s fun because, and this is one little thing I wanna just throw in beforeI skedaddle, is that one of the reasons I love working with scientists, talkingto experts in various fields for my books, there’s an old calm man saying, usenine truths to sell one lie that really applies great to any kind of fiction.
Because if you can build your fiction on a structure ofplausibility, it makes it so much easier for suspension of disbelief and alsothe trust when they know you’re stepping off that the top of that scaffold intofiction, they know that you’ve done your homework. So the fiction is gonna be areasonable extension of the non of the nonfiction, and they’ll go with you forthat.
But if you’re just making shit up so that you can tell ascience fiction story, there’s no structural basis to it, you’re only going toget the people who don’t know science. And that’s an increasingly small [00:58:00] number, I hope, because there’s a lot ofanti-science going on right now.
geo: right.
Jonathan: But
nick: Fingers
Jonathan: yourfingers crossed there are still people who want it to believe in it. They wantto believe that we can have superheroes. They want to believe that people cando this, that people will become stronger, that maybe somehow we’ll be able tosurvive a polluted planet and get wise enough to fix the planet.
So I love doing that. I love working with scientists. It’s fun.It’s so much fun for me to be on a podcast with people who understand scienceuntil I, that, that
joe: Thank
nick: you
geo: coming on andus. Yeah,
nick: What,
joe: Nick and Jordan
Jonathan: Nerds getit by extension. I’m not a scientist either, but all my science addictedfriends, we all love the fact that’s, that there’s real scientists out there
geo: right?
Jonathan: manyscientists are actually in the nerd
joe: Yeah.
nick: Oh, a hundred
joe: And I
geo: want,
joe: Jonathan, youdidn’t mention it, but we have some, I’m sure there’s some writer friends thatlisten, but you do a great masterclass series and so on different topics in thewriting, both [00:59:00] writing the art ofwriting, but also the business side of writing.
And, I’ve attended several
geo: of them
Jonathan: and they’refundraisers.
nick: And
joe: They’re alsofundraisers, right? The money goes to the no kill shelter or the
Jonathan: kill animalshelters, women’s shelters, homeless shelters. And these are programs thatprovide meals for children in, areas where they’re not getting it, family don’tenough income and 50 cents can buy a whole meal. I do a hundred percent of themoney from my workshops goes there.
It does a lot of good. And also, I hope people can use materialto get into the writing business because it’s more fun when there are more kidsin the playground.
nick: Definitely.
joe: No, so check itout, you writers out there,
nick: One lastquestion for you, if you don’t mind. Who is your favorite? Unbreakable skincharacter.
geo: Oh.
joe: oh,
geo: Oh, the
Jonathan: Oh, theHulk. I’m sorry.
geo: Yeah.
Jonathan: Sorry. Thething has always been my favorite unbreakable character because of the factthat he’s the hu the Hulk I liked, but the Hulk was Jekyll and Hyde with,dipped and green. The, it’s that, but the thing [01:00:00]he was always leaning into his humanism, An empathetic character and empath,when you have a character who looks like basically a big rock monster, butempathy is his trues super strength, man.
I gotta love a character like
nick: I’m so glad wehave you on this episode, because he is your favorite,
Jonathan: yeah. Andvery first comic I ever bought has him on the cover of it,
joe: Yeah.
Jonathan: 4 66.Believe that’s 1967. Good lord.
geo: That’s it.
joe: Awesome. Thanksagain for joining us. It was a lot of fun. And yeah, just a lot of cool nerdingout in pop culture,
nick: very much
Jonathan: and thanksfor inviting me on too. I had a lot of fun. I wish I had a little time rightnow, but I hope you guys will invite me back ’cause I’ll
joe: I will do. Yeah,no, definitely. No you already brought up several topics that we will have tohave you on now for, and, you know
nick: wait, are yougonna be the fourth rabbit in the hole?
joe: right.
Jonathan: And also I,with one of my upcoming classes, we haven’t set the date yet, but my, mymolecular biologist friend is going [01:01:00]to co-teach a class with me on working with
joe: Cool. That’d beawesome.
geo: That’s
Jonathan: be a lot offun too, ’cause a lot of writers don’t know how to ask the right questions andthey don’t know how to follow it down that rabbit hole into.
A plausible story and having a scientist on there would be fun.And if I’ll give you a free pass of that one, Joe, so you can join theconversation
joe: be fun. Yeah, no,
geo: and also theother way too, scientists don’t always know how to translate. That’s right.Their science communication is big,
joe: right?
That’s right. Yeah. And
geo: so they can use
A writer or they can use someone that the, the scientist just
joe: did a piece andthey, I was interviewed for, it was oh, it was like speculative fiction in, Howspeculative fiction and bench science kind of merge. And so they
Jonathan: that arecent
joe: of us.
It was, it came out last month. I can send you a link to it.Yeah, it was a fun, it was a few of us in it.
Jonathan: get thatand read it. I need to renew my subscription to the Scientist
joe: yeah. Yeah, no, itwas a fun article and had a couple quotes in there. So I was happy that [01:02:00] something came outta my interview.
Jonathan: I might betapping some information too. Getting a walk on in something.
geo: anytime, man,anytime I’ve helped
joe: other people ortried to help. ’cause sometimes people, you’re right they call and then they’relike, I wanna do this thing with this equipment. And I’m like, you can’t dothat thing with that equipment. Or there’s practical reasons why you won’t getthe image you think you’ll get, it’ll charge, it’ll look bad.
geo: And they go
joe: I need this is ifI can’t do it with that piece of equipment then my story fails. And I’m like
geo: you need,
Jonathan: story
nick: I’m like, weneed
geo: to, let’s have alonger conversation
joe: and figure thisout. And and some I, we did, it was like, you need this piece of equipment. Butthey’re like, but that’s not in that room.
And I’m like you need to have this scene happen in this roomnow because, so yeah.
Jonathan: Yeah. I’veactually had to repl whole novels because I talked to a scientist and found outthat my assumption, like writers, we have a lot of information in our head.Doesn’t mean we’re experts on it, but it’s enough to get us into trouble orhopefully to ask the right questions.
And I had this really great idea for something and I asked to acouple people who were into [01:03:00] nuclearscience, power plants and so on. My idea made no sense. It was laughably naive.I was like, oh shit. Glad I didn’t write the book. ’cause my editor didn’t knowit was a bad idea
Working with scientists, big important thing.
geo: Yeah, no.
joe: And experts andthings like that. No, it’s awesome.
geo: I’m
Jonathan: I’m theexpert that a lot of my friends tap for
geo: Martial arts.
nick: know. Yeah. I
joe: I was that’sawesome. I have a a friend, I don’t know if he joined the last one, I told himhe should get on, but I know he has a lot of action and fighting scenes and hedid wrestling and jiujitsu, so I was like, oh, you should jump on, becauseJonathan, he’s, that’s his background, especially writing those scenes andgetting it across.
Jonathan: Years now.
joe: yeah. Yeah.
geo: Cool. I
joe: know you need torun and so
Jonathan: stuff, sothanks. This guy, guys. I can hang with you
geo: I
nick: know. Yeah. I’mlike, Hey,
joe: That’s why I’mlike, Hey,
Jonathan: I will behappy to come back and and nerd out with you guys again.
nick: Absolutely.Anytime. Thank you.
geo: Thank you. Havea good night. Cheers.
nick: Thank you.
Jonathan: bye.
geo: Bye.
joe: you have me, Joe.
geo: We got Nick. Wegot
joe: Nick, we’ve got
geo: Georgia.
Georgia,
joe: and we’ve
nick: gone down some[01:04:00]
geo: holes,
joe: some tough skin
nick: tough skin.
joe: I dunno.
nick: Bye-bye.
joe: Hey, you stay safeout there. Stay strong.

Transcript:

joe: [00:00:00] Hey,
welcome to the Rabbit Hole of Research. We’re down here in the basement studio with another exciting episode in our Fantastic four
series. We’ll be focusing
a little bit on the thing and
all things strong, tough skin. As usual, we have the whole crewhere. You have me, Joe, you got
geo: Nick, we’ve gotNick and Georgia.
joe: We’ve got Georgia.
geo: And
joe: have a specialguest with us.
geo: And for our
joe: we
geo: let the guestsintroduce themselves.
joe: Please.
Jonathan: Hi, I’mJonathan Mayberry. I’m a New York Times bestselling author. Multiple genres. Iwrite horror, science fiction, fantasy, whatever. And also a comic book writerwrote for Marvel for a bunch of years, dark Horse, IDW doing some freelanceprojects. Now they’re a lot of fun. I also edit Weird Tales magazine and keepmy myself pretty immersed in the pop culture world, which is my home space.
My, that’s my comfort zone.
joe: Yeah. Awesome. No,it should be fun. Hopefully we can fit [00:01:00]you, fit right in here with our witty banter at times. I don’t know. So you
nick: I do have tosay that I’ve read a lot of your stuff that I did not realize was yours untilabout a month ago. I was like, I read that. Oh wait, I know his stuff. It wasjust
Jonathan: get a lotof that from folks at events too. And that, that’s cool. It’s always a readingthis stuff that’s what matters most, but. When I was at the the world premiereevent for the Black Panther, Wakanda forever I not only did were peoplesurprised that I had written anything that became part of that movie.
Everybody there was surprised I was white including RyanCoogler. Ryan Coogler had came up to me in the, at the after party. He, you’rewhite. I’m like, I am. Oh my God. He had no idea. He thought I was black. Interms of talking about skin, that’s interesting.
joe: Yeah.
geo: There you go.That’s a great segue.
nick: Yeah. Sousually
joe: I
geo: have
joe: a definition thatget us grounded and I have a
geo: list
joe: so I’ll do thedefinition what is skin. [00:02:00] But I dohave a special list for Jonathan because I know he likes facts and he alwayshas posts on social media.
If you follow him on all the different flavors of social media,he has. Tell me something new or something. I don’t know. So
nick: I have
geo: a list and
joe: I’ll see how manyof those facts, but I’ll
geo: start with thedefinition to get us started. What is skin? Skin is biological armor.
joe: It’s a sensorinterface, a site of cultural
geo: inscription
joe: and a metaphor foridentity.
It’s the most visible and tactile representation of self and infiction, a canvas onto which transformation, trauma and power are projected. SoI think that’s
Jonathan: Wow. Nicelyphrased. I like that.
joe: you.
nick: Yeah. And so wewere,
geo: as I said,talking
joe: the FantasticFour.
geo: And,
joe: We already had thefirst episode on a Fantastic four come out.
And but just a recap. It’s a fictional
superhero team uh, by Marvel,
created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby first appeared in Fantasticfour, number 1, 19 61 Marvel
comics. [00:03:00] consideredMarvel’s first superhero team, or the
first family and helped establish a more human,
flawed,
family driven style that defined Marvel storytelling.
Ben was one of the members of that team. He was Reed Richard’scollege roommate and former football star.
Jonathan: Yep.
joe: And Ben had he, hewas
geo: after a
joe: trip
illegal
and or
A unscripted trip into space they
were bombarded by
cosmic rays Ben got disfigured and he was given this kind ofrocky, orange,
scaly skin
that was superhuman strength impenetrable and had all thesekind of nearly imper impervious to damage and things like that.
So yeah, that’s the character.
nick: Yeah. So I dohave to say that it is always so interesting seeing him in the comics becausethey tend to show the strength of his skin. ’cause are, [00:04:00] we’re considering it skin. Yes. I would
geo: consider
joe: skin. Yes. As the,
probably the
outer later the dermis was modified in some way, but,
nick: Yeah. And it’salways so fascinating ’cause I was reading an issue I’ll have to put it in theshow notes where they it was they were pulling him apart and like you just sawall of his skin. It looked like a gum being pulled. And it was just like, whoa.Like the amount of pain that has to be, I’m assuming it’s like a scab thatwould just be like.
Jonathan: Yeah. One,one that’s not ready to fall off, but they’re trying to pull it.
nick: exactly. Andthen I told him, I’m like, oh it’s, yeah. Fantastic. I love that.
Jonathan: And Ialways loved when Kirby would show me him getting a really hard impact. One ofthe ways they would use to emphasize the impact is pieces of rock would beflying off of him.
joe: Yeah.
geo: another
Jonathan: would beblood from a, a busted nose. But for him it was always pieces of rock fallingoff and that kind of defined how hard he was being hit because he’s impervious.
But somebody could [00:05:00]do that, at least to him,
joe: and knock off bitsof skin and or his outer structure, which is interesting. And thinking abouthow that would actually form I think NICU hit on it with and scar tissue wasone that, that immediately came to my mind that as he was bombarded was, wasthat now some scarification and you have this kind of, , in terms of scars, youget fibrous tissue that forms as you get the scar. So is that now
geo: been
joe: modified as DNA?And so you get this kind of overgrowth and then calcification and then almostkind of mineralization there that would form this kind of outer exterior.
then
as you as you were just pointing out, Jonathan, that as it getsdamaged, bits gets knocked off, but presumably is regenerated.
And so that means this is some
geo: active
joe: process thathappens.
Jonathan: And hisskin would have to be, his rock skin would have to have to be at least porousor something. Otherwise he would,
nick: Thanks.
Jonathan: the theskin’s the most important breathing apparatus next to our lungs. And [00:06:00] so he would need that. And funny ’causeI’ve had a conversation about this with Stan Lee years ago at the Houston ComicPalooza, I think it was.
And buttress, we’re talking about different characters and howthe, somehow the conversation come up is how they would get medical treatment.
nick: Oh,
Jonathan: Ben Grimmhad beautiful white teeth. how dentist worked on. Were his teeth set in gums orwere they set in
joe: Rock.
Jonathan: A couple ofus were asking questions of Lee and he is we didn’t think that far.
joe: I mean, Nails,Nonas fingernails.
Yeah. I mean you, you have all of those external
besides breathing and pores, you also have tactile sensation. Askin is our communication to our environment.
So if you lose that you lose a major sense. It’s almost likebeing blind or deaf or any losing any other senses. So that is something that Idon’t know if they cover that in any comic line or,
Jonathan: they touchon it because there are times, even though when he, especially in the earlyFantastic four comics, he and Johnny were always in a a baiting war. They’realways trying to get [00:07:00] you right intoeach other. And sometimes Johnny would try to scorch him and he would, he wouldact, he would run away, he would react to it so he could feel pain, feelpressure but his skin.
It was like being on the other side of a fireproof garment. Youfeel the heat, you just don’t get the actual firm. So that might be where theywere going with it if they even thought that far. But, because presuming thathe, he, something like that could exist.
And the version of it we’re seeing in the most recent trailersfits the old Ben Graham a little more.
How I envision him. He’s more fluid, he is more flexible. It’sless like a rock man trying to move than a man who made a malleable rock. Andit must be malleable.
If he’s going to reach
joe: right?
geo: Yeah.
nick: Be able to grabthings.
joe: Yeah. You have tobe flexible still. And that’s part of it, that when this transformationhappened, when
geo: Yeah.
Jonathan: theflexibility can’t just be the subdermal layer because if he was stretching, youwould see gaps as, so it must be the rock itself rocket [00:08:00] that is stretching like an alligator skin and so on,which looks armored, but it still has a degree of flexibility. ’cause otherwisethe thing couldn’t operate couldn’t swim or anything else.
nick: that’s actuallya really good point. Like putting it towards like an alligator skin. I wouldn’thave even thought of that.
Jonathan: Actuallywhere I’ve always gone with the things skin because it has to move and know.You mentioned that I’m a research or knowledge junkie. I am a knowledge junk. Iwas a kid I, that’s what I was trying to figure out how he did that, where theHulk got his extra mass from, because Bruce was maybe 150 pounds and the Hulk.
So there, I knew just enough about science even as a kid. Tohave questions. And some of those I did get to ask, Stan, because I got to knowhim pretty well last few years of his life. And also some of the other folkswho worked on Fantastic Four. I had conversations with John Byrne about it.
J Byrne was more of the, everything’s elastic, just reallytough thing. And I mentioned to him about I called it crocodile skin, but thesame alligator skin, same thing. [00:09:00] Andhe said that, that’s probably exactly what it’s like that just thicker.
joe: Yeah.
nick: A
joe: more adorable or
geo: yeah,
joe: Or calcified insome way.
So you would have that, some combination, maybe armadilloscaling also would, it has some level of flexibility in It’s the way it’sjoined. And
geo: also
Jonathan: he smiles,he laughs, he frowns. All of those require elastic skin of the facial musclesand skin.
joe: And a muscle.Yeah. You, the muscle control of all that’s just not you.
You still have to maintain that. Yeah. Yeah. That
Jonathan: I.
nick: Yeah.
Jonathan: like thataspect of the thing of that, that concept of the thing being more elastic,more, it makes him more human and also makes him more of a scarified victim ofwhat’s going on, rather than a transformed into a monster thing. Because I, hewas always about the monster and he wasn’t a monster.
He was a victim of a reaction, a mutated skin reaction tosomething, it’s a cosmic race. It’s unfair and sad that he became, the [00:10:00] ugly one.
nick: I think you hiton a good thing right there where he does get identified as a monster and seenpeople with different deformities do get, back then people were like, oh,they’re either had a curse put on them or something.
It was just always, this is a monster.
Jonathan: yeah. Andthen we’re leaning in a little bit to the paranoia that was pretty common inthe fifties and sixties, anyone who wasn’t us. That, that other thing, plus,it’s the beginning of the civil rights era. Era, so you have a lot of that,it’s not us thing but that’s also, again, Kirby and Lee leaning into, justbecause it looks different, doesn’t make it not human.
I think there was a little bit of that in there too, which theyexplored with the X-Men and some other things. But I love the fact that BenGrimm is a good guy and I hated the fact that, and so many of the early comics,he’d be walking on the street maybe with a slouch hat and a car up.
Somebody would see him and it would be terrified. First off,why about issue two? They should know he exists.
geo: Right
Jonathan: It, they,Lee and Kurt kept wanting to make the point. And it’s funny [00:11:00] because the point they were making is whatwe in, in, in the novel trade it’s one of the rookie mistakes of assuming thereader doesn’t remember from the last episode to detail play down and keepsneeding to be reinforced.
I can understand it in Fantastic Four ’cause it was the firstMarvel comic, but they kept it going well into I think the forties issue,forties and in that
Still regarded as a monster. And I think even I, I’m Monster Ithink was maybe one of the titles or this man, this monster that was the
So that he’s still trying to get back to being human ’cause hestill is has now bought into the, people see me as a monster, therefore I amone.
geo: Yeah. That
Jonathan: It’s a sad
joe: and that, thatseemed like some of that storyline, if we think about just his identity, thathe was just sweet, caring person, but then he had this external kind of, it wasthis play maybe oversimplification
of these, traits that he had.
And you get that [00:12:00] andI you brought up. Just to segue a little bit to the civil rights movement thingis Luke Cage then in the, who came out, who also then was given tough skinunder different circumstances, this coerced, experimental activity. And thenthe racist the warden or police officer screwed with the
instrumentation.
then he was given, the super strong literally impenetrable kindof skin. So this very tough skin. And so that was a very different. So he wasvery normal on the outside, but society, at, seen him as a monster. So it’sthis this area.
Jonathan: also do youguys, guys know who John Lewis was, right?
nick: Yeah.
geo: Yeah. Yeah.
joe: yes.
Jonathan: So he did acomic called a March for IDW. We did a signing, together at one of, at ComicConone year. And we were talking, and Luke Cage was I think just coming on TV atthe time somewhere around the the Luke Cage era on Netflix.
And we were talking, and he’s in his theory on the, you LukeCage having the armored skin, is that black men, [00:13:00]black people had to be so bulletproof in terms of their reactions to what isbeing
About. That, what they did to Luke, what Luke represented was,no matter what you say, you can’t hurt me.
Was that kind of an approach that was at least John Lewis’stake, and I valid one
joe: Yeah. No, I,
geo: But
Jonathan: but again,I don’t know if the creators had that specifically in mind. It’s like withGeorge Romero in Night of Living Dead. I just wanna jump
A second, because in Ge Night of Living Dead, you had a blackman who was the only strong, intelligent
geo: right.
joe: And
Jonathan: and all thereviewers said, my God, this was this incredible civil rights movie.
It’s about racism. It wasn’t, he was the only good actor whoauditioned.
joe: Yeah,
Jonathan: right,George Romero saw those reactions and from then on leaned into that as theinterpretation of even that first movie. I think I would agree Marvel may becounting its own design aesthetic when, they gave some of these characters,these qualities.
I think they [00:14:00] may,I’m hoping at least on some subliminal level, they were trying to make thatkind of of equitable statement, about just because we are different does notmean we are bad or wrong or evil or monsters or anything. And, Marvel had themore progressive vibe than DC anyway, so I think that may have been, aningredient in the soup at least.
joe: Yeah. No, yeah, Ithink I totally agree with that and see that from that perspective especiallygrowing up in, in America as a a. Person of color, a black man that, that it issomething that you go out in the world and you have to be
as
good or better than your white counterparts at times.
And sometimes you’re the only, and so then you have that weightgoing out into the world, so that, that is also, both. And Luke Cage’scharacter was a large man, almost a John Henry kind of figure. So it wasn’tlike they took a skinny, black man and said, okay you’re now
nick: but superskinny.[00:15:00]
joe: he was
geo: a right,
joe: He was really a,he was
nick: intimidatingfigure. Yeah, that’s
joe: right. For, so
geo: and it wasliterally having tough skin. Literally
joe: skin. And,
geo: And, being ableto deal with
joe: right. And
geo: All, and skin,and
joe: Touch upon it alittle bit. But, enslaved people were used in experiments on skin andparticularly testing of thick skin.
So there was this
geo: theory
joe: that, theseenslaved people didn’t feel pain because they had thicker hides like animals.And so you had
geo: a
joe: number of slaveowners who would do these experiments and torturous experiments and go throughit. So that was it. And those myths persist even today.
That, with pain medication and thing that, that black peopledon’t need, as much, or can tolerate more pain because of these these kind ofracist ideals that, that were put out
nick: and that havecontinued,
joe: has continued.Yeah.
geo: Yeah.
Jonathan: there,there was a a poem that may Angelou read at Temple University years ago, [00:16:00] and one of the lines in it, and I’ve triedto find this online, is just because I survived being whipped didn’t mean Iliked it.
joe: Yeah.
Jonathan: That andthat
geo: kind
Jonathan: speaks alittle bit to this, just because they survived the things that people put themthrough, didn’t mean they were invulnerable.
It meant they, they were committed to survival
It should have been admired rather than looked at as a freak ofnature, thing. But,
joe: No, definitely.Yep. No.
Jonathan: I just
wanna say one more thing about Fantastic Four. I don’t know ifyou know this story, Joe, but that comic first of off, it was my favorite comicand this was the very first comic I ever
joe: Wow. There it is.
nick: Oh damn.
geo: Oh wow.
Jonathan: Bought thatwhen I was a kid.
I was nine years old.
geo: Wow.
Jonathan: The thingabout Fantastic Four is I, my background had a lot to do with skin in thisregard. My father, who was a terrible human being, ran the local chapter of theKKK. So I grew up in a household dominated by racism in a neighborhood inPhiladelphia that was known as White Town, USA.
That was the [00:17:00]nickname of my neighborhood. It’s still rated as the worst neighborhood inPhiladelphia, even, it’s yay team. And it was
joe: which neighborhooddid you grow up in? Kente. Okay. I was gonna try to guess, but I didn’t
Jonathan: never beenthere. If a black family would move in the neighborhood, their house would befirebombed,
joe: Yeah. Wow.
Jonathan: terribleplace.
So when an issue, was it 52 that black Panther showed up? Whenthat character f because I’ve been, even though this was the first, fantasy 466 was the first comic I bought. I’ve been reading comics since I was a littlekid. My brother gave me all his comics before he went off to Vietnam.
So I had, fantasy four, going back to issue two and issue 52 ofFantasy four introduced a black character who was nobody’s sidekick. He was no,he was not comic relief. He was not a start to, he was the king of his ownnation. He was a scientist and he was a superhero. And of course, my fatherwould see that comic, he’d rip it up.
And, I would always rebuy them. And then later on in seventhgrade, I actually went to a, my middle school librarian and brought a co [00:18:00] one of the copies one of the comics in andsaid my father, she knew who my father was. Everybody did, my father hates thiscomic. I don’t really know why.
’cause I was, I hadn’t met any people of color up until seventhgrade. My neighbor was white. And she looked at the issue and said thatparticular, she was about apartheid. I’m like, what? What is that? And sheexplained it and she said do you know about the Jim Crow laws? I’m like, no.
And she said, do you know who Martin Luther King was? I said,yeah, he was this, and unfortunately, I used a racial epithet because that’swhat we were trained to use. I said, he was a bad guy who was killed my father,had to throw a party. And she said, sit down. For two and a half hours.
She gave me a crash course in what intolerance and racism areall about.
nick: the
Jonathan: And theissue that I brought in was interesting because it speaks to the topic hereabout skin. It was the issue where Tal is arrested in the Marvel universeversion of South Africa. I forget what the, what they used to call it in thecomics, but he was arrested, he was in prison.
And Ben and Johnny go to [00:19:00]break him out. Ben is orange, brown, Johnny when he is a is red a brown man anda red man helped a black man out of a prison. That is not an accident. EvenSue. Nowhere in sight.
joe: Yeah.
Jonathan: And it flewright over the head of a lot of people. But, my my librarian, she said, this islike very clear.
It’s, this is about, the races who have to stick togetherbecause they have a greater enemy. But they’re still people and they should bere regarded based on their actions and, content of their soul or quality ofsoul. But it was so interesting that they had, I think it was Ro Roy Thomasmaybe wrote that episode over that issue, but it was so clear, brown, red andblack.
joe: Wow.
geo: Yeah.
joe: Yeah.
Jonathan: threedifferent skin tones that were really politically charged at the time, withthat 1971 or so. And it, because it could, they could float it by people in acomic, because you could talk about different skin colors, different skin typesin comics because they’re superheroes or super villain.
geo: Right?
Jonathan: But therewas a group, [00:20:00] there was a percentageof the fan base that was getting it.
joe: Yeah. That’s good.I know
Jonathan: I got ahint of it there. And from then on my views and my father’s views split justsay on an epic level.
geo: wow.
joe: Yes. No,
nick: So I have toask how.
joe: how.
nick: Did he knowthat you wrote for Black Panther and all this? He
Jonathan: He was, hedied before that. But had started studying martial arts on the sly when I wassick because, it was a very bad household to grow up. And my four sisters and Iwere pretty badly, abused. And when I was 14, he and I had it out. We had afight. And from that point on he just say there were no more meetings of theKKK in our house.
And he did not make any statements or put his hands on anyone.But
He did not live long enough to see my Marvel comic stays. SoI’m hoping that he’s in his graves spinning it about war. None. Not only did Iwrite Black Panther, I wrote Black Panther, but the female lead, so I wrote afeminist Black
geo: Wow.
Jonathan: probablyhis bones have probably exploded.[00:21:00]
geo: Wow.
Jonathan: I’m okaywith that.
joe: Yeah.
nick: That is sointeresting to hear like that Is your upbringing like being able to come fromthat kind of background to writing some fantastic stories about minority leadsthat, that’s so in
Jonathan: of thatstory. I got the job at Marvel for this particular thing ’cause Reggie Hu,who’d been writing Black Panther. I was already done. I had done a MarvelZombies, I did a Punisher on Wolverine thing, for Marvel by that point. Andthey were Reggie was thinking of stepping down.
He had been the writer for Black Panther. And they were lookingfor someone to replace him. And the assumption was they would, he would pick ablack writer which makes perfect sense. But he heard me talk on the radio,talking about my childhood and how the Black Panther was the pivotal momentwhere my life began splitting away from my father’s racism.
So he went to bat for me at Marvel and got me the gig. And alsobecause I had spent 35 years of my adult life teaching women’s self-defense, hedecided to [00:22:00] give me an extra littlebonus. He said, look, the last six issues of my run, we’re gonna turn Sureyinto the panther. Why don’t you come and post, write that storyline.
I’ll do the maid storyline, but major storyline. But you do theSurey storyline, so you’ll be the first person to put her in the armor and thenyou’ll pick up the comic after that. That’s what we did.
geo: Wow, that’samazing.
Jonathan: I’m still,I, Reggie was also at the Black Panther, Wakanda forever and we were joking.
He said, that radio, if you hadn’t done that radio interview, alot of this wouldn’t be happening right now. But, it was so surreal.
joe: Yeah,
geo: Wow. So
joe: I do want to touchon one of your characters who has skin
as part of their storyline, and that’s Monk and that,
geo: yeah.
nick: You had to
geo: know that wascoming.
Jonathan: actually, Ididn’t I didn’t, but I’m glad you brought up. Monk is one of my favorite
geo: It’s, I love himso much. Glip is like, one of my all time favorite novels. Yeah.
joe: Georgia had, she
geo: and that’sprobably why I
joe: on our chalk boardin our kitchen, and she
geo: Did you, Ialready read
joe: book. And I wasI’ve [00:23:00] been reading your stuff for awhile. And Georgia picked up that book ’cause it was just laying in, in thehouse. And then she was like, oh, this is did you read this line?
I was like, I read the whole book. Yes, I
geo: know.
Jonathan: Monkappears in two other novels and in a short story collection. He’s in Inc.
joe: Yep. Yeah, sure.
Jonathan: BurnedShine, the latest Joe Ledger
joe: Yep.
nick: If you can seethey geeked out and had all your
Jonathan: yeah, thereyou go. And of course, monk Addison’s
geo: That’s right.Yeah.
Jonathan: But hestarted off as a comic book character.
Actually.
geo: Oh, wow.
Jonathan: at onepoint IDW was going to do a shared horror universe, kinda like the DC and theMarvels with the a shared, so it was gonna be Steve Niles Joe Hill, myself, oneor two other guys. We were gonna create monsters that lived in the same world,but were also like heroic monsters.
And we were all ready to go. And then there was a managementchange at Marvel at the IDW rather than never happened. So I took the characterback and I decided to make a short story out of him. And it intended to be aone-off. But as soon as I start writing, I just love the concept of someone whois [00:24:00] haunted by what he does and bythe, the faces of dead people on his
And their ghosts never leave him,
joe: and
Jonathan: are we’regetting a little bit of interest in for film. VIN Diesels reading Ink rightnow.
nick: Oh,
joe: That would be,that, that would be incredible. I can
nick: totally see.That’s really cool.
geo: Oh
joe: and to folks whoare listening you should go read one of the, we’ll put in the show notes, oneof the many stories that Monk is in, but he’s a, an a private
Jonathan: I couldBrenda, he’s a former special ops soldier who then became a private militarycontractor, burned out, went on the pilgrims road to find who he was. And hefound out like he got a tattoo at one point. And he realized that when thetattoo was completed, it was a face of someone.
He was able to then relive their death. And there, there was alittle girl that was murdered and he is able not only relive her death, but seewhat she saw when she was dying, which gave him clues to be able to go out andfind the killers. And that became his road to, it’s hard to call it salvation’cause he isn’t going out killing people.
But at the [00:25:00] samepoint, he’s, it’s a, he’s doing something that is a redemption story, not areligious story, but a redemption
And he has all faces all over him of all these murder victims.And when the tattoo is completed, he, relieves the death, goes finds the killerand if he can stop this person, not as revenge, but to prevent the person fromdoing more killing, and he takes the guy off the board, but the ghost that kindof hired him to do this is always with him.
So he’s surrounded by all the ghosts of the people that he’s,that were murdered and he killed their killers, but they’re always with himlike 24 7. And it, it’s a tough life, but he’s one of my favorite characters.There’s a lot of the thing in him in that with the thing. You always know wherehis moral compass is pointing. He’s not a conflicted character. He is notreally a gray area of character. Reed gets real gray at times. The thing, if hehas your back’s covered. Monk is the same way. Monk’s a dangerous guy. He’s notnecessarily [00:26:00] friendly, he’s not, I’mnot even sure he is likable, for the people who know him. But if he has yourback,
joe: Yeah.
Jonathan: You’reokay. You’re gonna be okay. He will not ever hurt the innocent. And that’sthere’s, so there’s a little bit of Ben Grimm in him for sure.
joe: yeah,
geo: Wow.
joe: it’s That ideathat the tattoos are speaking through him, to him, I was looking up some stufffor this episode and preparing is the Skin Ego it’s this kind of theory Dieter,I. And Zoey and suggests that the skin serves as a metaphorical container for theego and provides a sense of boundary and containment for psychic content. TheSkin Ego is like the physical skin, and it’s the boundary that separatesindividual from the external world and also holds to psychic apparatus togetherbody boundaries reflecting kind of psychological boundaries. So it, it was indigging around I was, trying to make the science of monk work a little.
nick: bit.
geo: So I,
Jonathan: Yeah,actually I need to find that thing you were talking about, I [00:27:00] needed to read that. It sounds like it’sreally the right thing for me because if we’re gonna be pitching Monk for filmor tv, I want to be able to build a pitch that really digs deep into thispsychology of it. Most people don’t know this, but Vin Diesel’s an actuallyreally well read individual.
nick: Oh yeah,
joe: Yeah,
Jonathan: He doesn’talways play those types of characters. Unlike Johnny Bernthal plays ThePunisher, the two of them look like together. Based on some of the charactersthey played looks like together, they, collectively of the IQ of about 60. Butin reality, both really good, down to earth nice guys.
Some of the press isn’t always this. I think the press defines’em by their characters more than by them.
But
joe: VIN Diesel, beforethe Fast
geo: Series,
joe: was in BoilerRoom, which I thought was just an incredible movie where it wasn’t Muscle andBraun. It was a very, it was a, a. Thinking movie, I guess if we’re gonnaclassify
nick: Guns
geo: versus,
joe: Yeah.
But I, that was some of his early stuff before he got into theaction. And he found this stride [00:28:00]and, I think that happens. Like he’s a beefy dude and he plays those rolesreally well, but Yeah.
Jonathan: hilariousthough that he’s a DD dungeon master, though.
geo: Yep.
joe: Oh yeah.
nick: Yeah. And he’sa giant nerd.
geo: Oh, wow. Yeah,
Jonathan: actuallyhas a cloak with the hood when he plays
geo: wow.
joe: Wow.
nick: I’ve read that
Jonathan: Becausehe’s one and Henry CA’s one too, and you got these two guys who are, they’redefined a lot by their ability to punch things
Yet, they’re both book nerds, fantasy nerds, pop culture nerdsmakes me like them a lot more,
geo: I think that’sperfect for playing Monk. Because he is such a tough guy, but is introspectiveand do you know what I mean? So that just Yeah.
Jonathan: Sure. Andmonk is trying to find, there, there’s a, I have a long game with the characterof Monk. He’s trying to find his way to the fire zone, which is referenced in acouple different works. And it’s a book I will be actually writing called TheFire Zone that, that kind of TERs together.
But he, he wants peace,
joe: Yeah.
Jonathan: he’s doneso much harm in his life. As a, first not asking questions, who he [00:29:00] has to shoot when he was wearing a uniformand asking even fewer questions when he was a private military contractor, hehas, to quote black Widow a lot of red in his ledger and he
And, that isn’t usually done by doing pretty stuff. But alsohe’s good at it and he knows he’s good at it. And there’s a burden there too.When somebody is good at something, even if it’s something that hurts them, butit benefits other people. It’s hard to lay down your sword and shield on thatone.
nick: Yeah,
joe: No, that’s good.Now,
geo: monk also, it’snot just about getting the tattoos and having the ghosts, it’s also what’s inthe, it’s the actual blood, right?
Of,
Jonathan: Yeah. Bloodis mixed with holy water and tattoo ink to create these these tattoos. And hisbest friend Patty Cakes is the tattoo artist. It was her daughter that wasmurdered and that was his first, first of these tattoos. It’s,
joe: I think I thinkonly one of it I, as I’ve heard you talk about this and you do not have atattoo, Jonathan, is that right? Or do you, okay.
geo: Yeah.
joe: You’re like me.
geo: I don’t have,but
Jonathan: We’re lessthan a month [00:30:00] away from me being agrandfather
nick:congratulations.
geo: Oh, wow.
Jonathan: thanks. My,my son and his fiance are, are expecting and the baby’s gonna be named Orion,
geo: Oh, nice.
joe: Yeah.
Jonathan: so afterthe baby’s born and healthy and mama’s healthy and everything else. Sam, my sonand I are gonna go out and get Orion constellation tattoos.
joe: Awesome.
nick: cool. Verycool. Honestly, it just feels like a cat scratch.
joe: So I
nick: was gonna say,Nick has, I have multiple, yeah. It, oh, you got that thick skin right here.
joe: Oh boy.
nick: There,
joe: now
Jonathan: it’s beenpunctured enough times. I used to be a bodyguard, so I had been stabbed withice pick screwdrivers, knives chopped in the shoulder with a meat cleaver andet.
nick: o yeah.
joe: Yeah. So
nick: So
joe: I,
Jonathan: I have, myskin is not impervious Wish. It was really
joe: If
geo: it was, you wentto get medical
joe: That’s always init. You
nick: brought that upearlier
joe: how do you get,how do you get treated if you need
geo: someone
nick: needs to goinside of
geo: you to
joe: fix something.That’s
Jonathan: I thinkthat’s a missed opportunity for Marvel to do a TV series about, ’cause theyhave [00:31:00] damage control and they had thenight nurse. But I think a clinic for superheroes would be
joe: Yeah.
geo: In Luke Cage,they tried to, they were trying to Netflix. They got
joe: shot with thebullet
nick: that
joe: the kind ofexploding drill tip.
geo: And then she wastrying to get,
joe: she took ’em backto the
geo: original Right.
joe: and cooked them inthe,
geo: there was a,
joe: whole clam.
And it’s interesting ’cause mollus
geo: actually, thereare
joe: that have ironkind of formation in their foot. So in the, so they can scrape algae off ofrocks and fer those out there, mullis are like octopuses cuttlefish clams.Those are classified as mollus.
And they have
geo: shell
joe: they have a footthat can come out and they. They can do work. And so that’s one. And then theyhave, there’s another mole that has like teeth, like kind of iron teeth tocrack shells and things like that. So it is a,
Are some real world. And so that was the idea there that,that’s, and the show, they played on that, that’s what was in this soup.
And they were gonna heat ’em up and then that would [00:32:00] loosen the structure, the molecularstructure, which a
nick: little, a lotof hand waving
joe: as a, so
nick: I was like, oh,
joe: does this work?
geo: But yeah,
joe: it was they didcover
geo: that. At leastthey, at least they tried to cover it. Yeah. Tried attempt to
joe: explain it.
But,
Jonathan: Yeah. Andthey used the night nurse character, I’m forgetting her, Claire, they usedClaire as,
joe: Yep. Yep.
Jonathan: as thego-to person for Daredevil and so
geo: Yeah.
Jonathan: I wouldlove to have seen that become a secret department within the hospital sheworked
I might pitch it to Marvel
joe: yeah.
geo: I like that.
Jonathan: doctorfriends. We could some people who would advise me, so
nick: that would be areally cool, like just medical series. Yes. Yeah,
joe: if you’re lookingfor a writer, then, happy to write something for you.
geo: Nonetheless
nick: the other thingI was
joe: say about thetattoos and you, another thing I was looking up was all of the kind of dermalsensors.
I, I didn’t really know a lot about that till I was looking itup, but the MIT had a project where they were using bio sensitive inks in therethat was a reactive to glucose, pH, sodium kind of to monitor [00:33:00] health . And so this tattoo ink was biowas actually bio censored.
And so you have this kind of.
Jonathan: They’reworking on diabetics to be able to like literally flash a little warning when,things like that. Cancer sensors and other things. And also the, one of thethings they’re, they’ve been talking about, I don’t know if they’ve gottenthere quite yet, is an implant that will sense the onset of seizures of onekind or another, and then transmit immediately to 9 1
Or to the, the contact person for, care. It’s a great idea. Andthat’s the kind of body mods I’m okay with. I’m not a big fan of body mod forthe most part, but that one, those sort of things, when science is used for theright thing,
Right? I’m
joe: Yep.
Jonathan: doing upone of my upcoming Joe Ledger novels is going to deal with cybernetics and allof its different good and bad phases.
And I started doing some research and man, it’s amazing what’sunder RD right now. And it’s freaky that we’re so much further along than Ithought we were. A lot of the stuff is there, it’s just a matter of getting theright funding, right grants and [00:34:00]getting it past people who don’t want that kind of thing attached to them.
They’ll find with going out and getting a barcode or a QR codetattooed on them, not something, that’s not stylish, but their health.
joe: Yeah. I think theso at the University of Chicago where I do research at and work I’m part of thethe cube, which is a quantum NSF funded facility where they’re
geo: where they’re
joe: trying to developquantum sensors for biological applications like that. And so that is, it’sreally, so I was just in a meeting because I’m a biologist, so I go and try tointerface with the physicist and chemists talk about applications.
So that’s where. I come in,
geo: I know
joe: enough to talkabout qubits and, how entanglement works, but I’m not, that is not myexpertise. But and going over how these sensors can work to report informationout is super important. So yeah it’s a fascinating as I got into that and hearabout some of the things and, ’cause it’s like, how do we get this
geo: thing that
joe: in cells on aPetri dish now into a body or what’s the [00:35:00]mechanism?
And, it’s
geo: the, you’reright
joe: it is
geo: some of the
joe: stuff that’s insci-fi and, it’s now making its way and it’s that’s more real than you think,
Jonathan: sciencefiction has always been one of the reasons they called it speculative fictionor, it’s a lot of people looking forward. The cell phones, we’re clearlyinspired by the communicators on Star Trek, but we do more, much more now. Thecell’s far more, it’s like the communicator, the tri-quarter, about 15 otherthings.
In our phone now, but that’s where the idea came from for itsstructure. And a lot of other things, what I grew up reading, the reprints, theban of reprints of the old doc Savage novels, man of bronze, if you’ve everread any of those. They published 175 of them published in the thirties andforties.
And he always had advanced technology that he developed and alot of it’s stuff we have now.
geo: Wow. Yeah.Contact
Jonathan: lensesanswering machines, planes that, this is 1934 planes that flew 500 mile anhour.
Have that. All so many of the things that, that Lester Dent,who wrote most of the novels, put in the stories for [00:36:00]things that people were just saying, wouldn’t it be cool if
writers threw that stuff into fiction and some of the peoplereading that fiction grew up three scientists.
joe: Yes. That’s theway it works sometimes.
geo: Yeah.
Jonathan: one of mybest friends, one of my best friends, Ronald Coleman, who’s now actually acharacter, ongoing character in my Joe Ledger stories.
But he’s a molecular biologist, stem cell scientist. And I’mconstantly talking to him about wouldn’t it be cool if we could do this?
And sometimes he’s yeah we did that in
joe: Yeah.
Jonathan: Or we’reall come up with, wouldn’t it be cool if we could do this? Would this even bepossible? He is not yet, but maybe by the time the book is out, because I knowworking on grants for that, I love science and I love the fact that keepsmoving forward.
What I don’t like is that there are groups that, that aretaking this science, and of course the biggest funding is for DARPA and thingslike that. The military research,
nick: Yeah.
joe: Yeah.
Jonathan: I’ve talkedto those guys a bunch of times and yeah, some scary nerds.
joe: right?
nick: The best kind,scary nerds. So I do have a question, Joe. How likely is it to have [00:37:00] skin? Like the thing, because I know thereis that syndrome where
joe: yeah,
nick: guy had thetree skin,
joe: Your skin can cal,calcification of skin and I’m trying to think of the disorders.
Like FFAP, FOP or something
nick: I think it’ssomething around there. Yeah. And so
geo: your,
joe: yeah, you justhave this kind of all your fibrous tissues begin to calcify and over calcifyinto bony structures. The problem with that, you’d have to make this next leapbecause as we talked about earlier, how do you make that flexible, right?
Because those folks usually are fairly, they come very stiff intheir structure and they, and rigid. So you need to, now how do you make that.So almost, it can’t be an internal structure. It has to be external in terms ofthe way you would form it. So that would have to be either a new fourth skinlayers
nick: created
geo: that
joe: then give you thisextra properties and or your dermis would now excrete something some material, [00:38:00] either, one of these iron
geo: sulfide kind of
joe: compounds or couldbe even calcified.
We talked about diatoms in I think the plant episode. And sowhere they produce silicate or coral, they produce a calcium kind of deposit.So there are organisms that do excrete these materials. And you could havethese snails That’s right, snail shells, right? So there are these bio your
nick: teeth
joe: a biomaterial,right?
And so there’s a lot of folks Working on that. I know some ofthose folks, and it’s fascinating because the interface between biology and,this kind of this biomaterial is unique and, difficult to reproduce. That’s whyyou go in for dental work or implants stay, they don’t stay all the time orthey, it’s a interesting field there.
But yeah I
Jonathan: One of theconceits within comics though on that topic though, is that when, they neverconsidered that a lot of these mu mutations would be detrimental to
joe: Yes. Yep. Yes.
Jonathan: withinskin, the [00:39:00] way it is, he would be a,a patient in a hospital somewhere. He would be walking around punching the.
nick: Yes. When wetalked about
joe: the cosmic rays inthemselves would be pretty damaging, so you would have to be a mutant alreadyto tolerate the cosmic race from not just being a cancer patient. You’re right.He would be in those the, instead of tough skin, it would just have tumors allover him and, a ruined thyroid because he’s been,
geo: On your chest,
joe: You’re now beendevastated by cosmic race unshielded and exposed to cosmic race.
Which, you know, so Yeah. It you’re right. About that.
nick: Yeah, so
joe: And so
geo: it
Jonathan: It doescreate a, an opening though for stories to be told that would explain it. Andjust like there have been a lot of folks that come along and tried to explainthe physics of Star Trek or Star
geo: right.
Jonathan: On thephysics of Superman. There are plenty of books out there where, scientists likeyourself are trying to say, okay, if that is
joe: right. That’sright
Jonathan: then how.
I played with this, actually not on, on the skin subject, but Idid a book called Zombie, CSU, where I [00:40:00]interviewed a couple hundred people in the real world about what would happenif zombies were real. If zombies were here, inarguably here, I would beresearch, react, respond, whatever. And, talked to scientists, talk to, all thedifferent types of scientists military and everyone else, everyone has atheory, but it would be, it would need to be a new there wouldn’t have to bethere.
Somebody have to be, throw a hell of a lot of money intoresearch to finding out how these people are not dying as a result of thesechanges. And I think that opens up a lot of storytelling possibility for comicstoo. But I would love to do an anthology, a prose anthology where scientistswrite superhero stories that explain the superheroes.
joe: Yeah.
geo: No.
nick: there you
geo: there you go.No,
Jonathan: I do know abunch of scientists, writers.
joe: Yeah.
geo: Yeah,
joe: Yeah. right. Yes.
Jonathan: Some inthis room.
geo: that’s
nick: That’s what
joe: that’s what we tryto do on the podcast. Nick could throw me that question. I
geo: know. Yeah, it’s
joe: I
geo: do think,
joe: and you talk aboutsome of those things, like you have other heroes Colossus who has, he puts themetal armor on and you talk about your skin [00:41:00]breathing, he’d have to take that off pretty quick and, or is there some othermechanism that he’s using to actually dissipate heat and things like that.
So you do have these kind of these characters who have thisthese abilities. And then to form a metallic skin and then take it away alsorequire some level of. Rapid metabolism. And on this, on the podcast, we alwaystry to explain things in terms of how many Big Macs would you have to eat tocompensate for the caloric load of doing some of these modifications quickly.
Jonathan: Yeah.
joe: that’s right.Yeah.
geo: Which no talks
joe: the calories, sothat’s why
Jonathan: Yeah withColossus, it would make a little more sense if instead of it just being steel,it was plates that,
joe: Yes.
Jonathan: Under whichair could get through
joe: Yes.
Jonathan: Evaporationhappen and so on. But again, the comic book writers are not scientists. We’rein the 21st century. We’re 25 years into century.
It’s time to level up and let the nerds come out to play andmake the comics make sense, which I think would bring [00:42:00]in whole group of readers because a lot of people dismiss comics foolishly assaying that they’re not literature, they’re not good, but they are, they’rereally
geo: Absolutely.
Jonathan: if, youcould use comics as a way to teach stem, STEM
joe: I agree.
geo: Definitely
Jonathan: much,there’s a lot of good science there.
But there’s also what if science and what if science is whatdrives science forward?
joe: We talk aboutzombies. That was so that how I got into, I always wanted to do science,education and outreach. And I realized a lot of adults don’t know anythingabout science. And I had a friend who was doing these art and science talks,and he approached me with this idea and he said, oh, I’m doing these talks, butno one shows up to hear about the science lectures.
And I was like, oh. So this was some years ago. And it’s how Idiscovered your view because I was I said I’m a big zombie fan and that’s kindsof zombies and how it works. So I started reading everyone at, had the zombiestuff and kind of where they’re at. Where’s the literature at? All the [00:43:00] movies.
And so I pitched to my friend, I said, Hey, we should do theart and science to science of zombies. And he looks at me and who, and he ofthe sciences also, he goes, but no one does research on zombies.
geo: I go, I know,but if you want people to show up, then
joe: talk aboutsomething that’s super fun and then we’ll sneak science in on em.
And I’m a cell biologist, so we’ll do all cell biology and kindof talk. And it was, we filled this art gallery up with people. It was standingroom only. And he was like, wow, this really worked. And so now as he does it Ithink he’s stopped or taking a pause, but every time he does it, he has somelittle hook like that now.
And I’m like, yeah, let’s keeping going. And so that was then,how we arrived to this podcast was at that idea, but that was the start of it.Zombies was the the fun and figuring out how you would get the infection eventand then what would happen after that. In fast zombies.
nick: you love fastzombies.
Jonathan: yeah. In mydead at night series, I worked with scientists to come up with a parasitedriven one. Toxic plasma, green jewel wasp, whole bunch of other
And
joe: sometimes[00:44:00]
geo: you,
Jonathan: You can geta certain distance toward doability, toward, actual rea realizing it for some,if you talk to the right scientist and get them to really, put their mind toit, you get a lot further and closer to it than is comfortable sometimes.
But you’re talking
geo: right
Jonathan: the artgallery thing here in San Diego. We have the Fleet Center, which is a sciencecenter attached to the the astronomy center. And I was on a panel there. Theyhad also been trying to do panels and nobody was showing up to them. So becauseComic-Con is in San Diego, they decided to start bringing in comics people totalk to scientists.
The very first panel where I met the scientist I mentionedearlier, Dr. Ronald Coleman. It was Kevin Eastman, the artist who co-createdthe Ninja Turtles and myself. We were comic creators. And then the two, therewas a var Virologist who’s sadly named, I’m blanking on Nancy something, Ican’t remember her last name.
And Ronald Coleman, who’s, said a stem cell scientist. And wewere asking them questions and they were, they they were asking us questions.The [00:45:00] audience was asking questions.Kevin, the artist from Ninja Turtles, he wa he was like, goo or whatever. So wejust, we need, we needed a thing.
We just call it that. That’s total there. Or my V wars thing, Iwanted it to be a genetic disorder that was latent. And, as melting polar rice,softened permafrost, all diseases were. And I, that’s an idea I had before thatactually started happening, by
geo: Oh boy.
Jonathan: Before wegot to the popular press I subscribed to some science newsletters and I read anarticle back in 2010 about melting rice, releasing old bacteria and possiblyviruses.
And I’m like. That’s scary as hell. Let me write a book,
geo: right?
Jonathan: not the TVwars,
geo: Yeah.
Jonathan: But
joe: yeah. Yeah.
Jonathan: thezombies, the fun thing about zombies is, each individual thing it does, can beexplained by nature. Like the fact that it has a lower metabolism be, so itdoesn’t rot as much. There are animals, the ground squirrel the, I forget thename of the frog, that, that freezes solid every year and then falls, withoutthe tissue damage because of the way [00:46:00]the sugars,
That exists.
The if the motor cortex was working. Or even on a minimallevel, the zombie could walk, bite, chew, swallow. Without the motor of cortex,it couldn’t, unless there’s respiration, a zombie couldn’t moan. And we knowzombies moan. You can make an argument that zombies are not dead, they’re notalive, they’re living dead.
A third state of existence based on a great a rate ofmetabolism so greatly reduced that they appear dead to the point where theirouter tissues become necrotic, but they’re still not actually dead.
joe: It’s
geo: yeah, I hadthought
joe: In my own head andwe’re getting off, I gonna get back to skin ’cause we’re gonna have to closethe episode a little bit.
But yeah I had a dual infection event. One of the mind, butalso, people forget about the second brain and that’s our gut, which is justfilled with bacteria.
So as our control systems, entropy starts to take over, thenthat would be your driving force. And those bacteria then would have somepreservation of [00:47:00] self. Especially ifthe brain was now infected by something else, it might not have as tight ofcontrol over the system, so you can then have this dual function.
That also explains why in movies you have this, not everyone’sinfected by a splatter of blood or something like that, because you need bothparts to become infected. And so you could
geo: be primed.
joe: And then onceyou’re primed and maybe you have a death event,
geo: and now
joe: the brain parasitecan take over, and then the gut ones can now go, oh, you know what?
There’s no more control. Everything’s leaky, leaky gutsyndrome. We
geo: can get inthere, we can now invade.
joe: And we now we canhave this kind of two brain system in control. And hence why, your movementsare shambling and things like that. Not necessarily because your coronation isbad, but because you your, you have two.
Competing entities in inside one, one body. But
geo: That’s
nick: Anotherepisode, another rabbit
geo: hole.
joe: But
Jonathan: That one
nick: you’re in,
joe: you’re in,
nick: so I do wanna,
geo: I’m gonna touchon my
joe: [00:48:00] fun fact list. I promise a list and I’dlike to deliver,
geo: but
nick: There’s awebsite
joe: maybe you’refamiliar with it. I just learned about it. It’s called bio numbers.
geo: and it’s this
joe: fun website, atleast I think it’s
geo: fun where
nick: you
joe: search fordifferent topics and it will give you these kind of biology relevant numbers.
And so how many proteins are inside of a cell or
nick: how,
geo: so
joe: I put in, aboutskin and then it has the paper reference, which then I clicked on links becausethat’s what I do. And
nick: So it was just
geo: fun. Things
joe: and it saved mesome time on this weight
geo: of skin.
joe: On average isabout nine pounds or 4.1 kilograms for the folks who wanna go to metric.
The
nick: number of
joe: skin cells, about1 billion on average number of bacteria in skin, about 1 trillion. So that’s alot of bacteria, which we didn’t even talk about. The skin kind of, how wouldbend skin the bacterial that keeps that, that
geo: are very
joe: and beneficial?How are they living?
How are they getting along?
nick: Do you think hehas to [00:49:00] moisturize?
geo: when he gets
joe: fungal infection,like ringworm underneath those
geo: rocks. Yeah.What kind of lotion does he use?
nick: foot, athlete’sfoot there?
Jonathan: a story.Somebody needs to write that story.
nick: Yeah. I wouldjust assume the human torch is just Hey, I’ll get that. Hold on.
geo: 90% of the humanbody
joe: covered in hair. Ididn’t realize that, but that was
geo: how much? 90%.90%.
nick: Is that it?Density of
joe: procars, soprocars are bacteria. So these are organisms without a nucleus versuseukaryotes, which we are ourselves are eukaryotic.
The density of procars in the skin of humans. And this is cellsper centimeter squared. It’s about a thousand to 10,000 and you’re growing andunder your arm, it’s about a million. Per centimeter, per centimeter squared,or that’s about 0.78 inches squared for those who think in inches.
So that was and
geo: and this allcame from that one website,
joe: website. The
geo: term of
joe: in your entireepidermis is about 26 to [00:50:00] 27 days. Soyou got, so yeah, so you,
nick: it’s
geo: oh, all that,
nick: that dried dead
joe: skin you’regenerating, that’s you’re danner.
So that’s another for Ben. How’s he dealing with
nick: I thought itwould just be rock dust. No, that’s
geo: to us. That’s
Jonathan: that when,I wish that when skin generated, it would take scars away. ’cause I got
geo: yeah. So
joe: that was those aresome fun. And then I, the concentration on microbes in human gut, I just hadgot, I, that one was there and that’s in the tens of billions of cells and,number of human cells.
’cause it, this was something I always think about are we morebacteria than than human? But the number of total number of human cells in yourbody is about 10 to 30 trillion. So you’re, so you got about hundreds ofbillions of. Bacteria on you, in you, but you still are a little more human.
Just,
nick: Slightly morehuman than bacteria.
geo: Yeah.
nick: I don’t,
Jonathan: quitehuman. But
joe: yeah, that’sright.
geo: So there you go.There’s
Jonathan: I thinkthey’re more bacteria,
joe: so those are somefun, just some fun skin facts and others,
geo: But yeah, bio
joe: I can,
Jonathan: Oh, I’mdefinitely gonna be hitting that. I wrote [00:51:00]it down.
joe: yeah. Yeah.
geo: It’s a fun,
joe: and when I learnedof it, I was in a lecture and someone had these cool numbers and I went, I waslike, how do you get these, did you just guess at this stuff?
And they were like, no, there’s this website, bio numbers. Andthe first thing I did when I got back to my office pile numbers,
Jonathan: I love thatthere is nerd porn for scientists too.
nick: it exists.
joe: Like we, we keepit secret. It’s our
nick: own little
Jonathan: Like nerdporn for writers is the TV troops website. If you ever been to TV troops,
geo: oh,
Jonathan: that, allof the tropes of everything and a
joe: in there.
nick: Interesting.
joe: Yeah.
Jonathan: days on it.I,
joe: Wow.
Jonathan: So much ofmy stuff’s on there and I, somebody said, oh, you’re on, I saw you on TV trope.
I’m like. TV tropes when there’s a whole bunch of my stuff andthey’re breaking witch tropes and which variations of tropes are used and soon. But I love the, that’s fun. I gotta grab that because, sometimes when ascientist in a story wants to, as Bob, that sort of thing when they’re infodumpy moment, you do want your details.
My science guy I normally go to, he [00:52:00]actually does work a day job. But so I have to catch him when he’s available.
geo: Yeah,
joe: you go. You canhave some numbers to throw out there
geo: and the paperreferences so
joe: you can look it upand see where to get the numbers. ’cause it is it was interesting. So there wasa lot of cool things in there, but yeah.
There you go. Yeah. So I
Jonathan: I knowwe’ve just about run outta time, but is there one, was there another topic onskin that we need to go back to that we didn’t cover?
geo: I
joe: do you guys,unless
geo: you havesomething
joe: you want to do,
nick: please. I havea whole list of
Jonathan: the
geo: We have another,yeah.
Jonathan: Yeah. Youmentioned the human torch
joe: Yep.
nick: yep.
Jonathan: how thehell does he not dehydrate? Like
joe: That’s right.
geo: So we’ll have,
joe: we’re gonna do anepisode on all the Fantastic Fours.
Jonathan: Okay.
joe: have,
geo: we actually
joe: are gonna have aDr. David Pincus from University of Chicago on for that episode. And so hejoined us for actually the permafrost episode,
geo: Was
nick: which was
joe: of the funniest
geo: episodes.
joe: yeah he kind ofstudies, the impact of environmental changes on organisms short term and longterm.
And one of the things [00:53:00]is heat stress and heat shock. So I think it, I
geo: so that’ll be agreat question for him.
joe: it would be. Yeah.We’ll pose that to
geo: him.
Jonathan: Ice Man.Ice Man
nick: Iceman. Yeah,that’s
joe: right now,
geo: Man. Oh yeah.
joe: Yes. So how doeshe live in that ice state? That’s a whole nother, that’s another episode Ithink.
nick: And movingthose arms with ice on him.
joe: without cracking.Yes.
geo: How’s he stayflexible?
Jonathan: I have, Ijust have this idea that somewhere there’s a DARPA lab where a couple of guysare trying to figure out how to make the sup, make the Fantastic Four
nick: Right.
joe: Yes.
nick: I’m in
geo: Cosmic Rays
joe: is not the answer.I’m gonna go right there.
geo: That’s,
nick: We can’t rollthat out yet, Joe. I will.
Jonathan: actually,one of the funny things is guys have seen Night of Living Dead, right? The
joe: yes.
nick: Yes, of course.
Jonathan: So one, oneof the conceits there is that the major theory in the first film is thatradiation from returning space probe. George Romero was a huge fan of theFantastic Four, and that was his nod to the
joe: interesting. Wow.
Jonathan: though onespace probe returning does not explain global, I [00:54:00]busted George a lot on this because,
geo: Neither livingDead. Was
joe: it truly global orwas it local? Just in Western Pennsylvania, because that was that clear
Jonathan: wanted itto be global because people were talking about it in Washington and other
joe: Okay. Yeah. Imight’ve been on the radio. Yep.
Jonathan: clearlywas, but the first one, he was the first one he actually expected it to be,defeated.
It was never intent to be a series, but he immediately, decidedto go further with it. His next film actually explored another aspect of it,the Crazies,
nick: Oh yeah. Of
joe: the
geo: I love thecrazies.
Jonathan: rage
joe: Yeah. That’sright.
Jonathan: That wewouldn’t have 28 weeks, 28 days
joe: That’s right. No,that’s exactly right.
Jonathan: genres,
joe: Yes. The crazieswas it. Yeah. Yeah. But
Jonathan: but Iactually wrote dead of Night because I wanted to as a, like a thank you note toGeorge Romero, how he and I became friends.
Actually, he read the book and loved it. We became friends. Wedid an anthology together. But I couldn’t stand that. The science made no sensein the book, in the movie. It me, 10 years old, it bugged me.
geo: right? Yeah.
Jonathan: The thing,the thing, his skin the [00:55:00] Hulk, hismass Reed Richards, every bodily function when he’s stretching.
joe: right. We have,we’re gonna have a MD on to Maria do at Northwestern University is gonna be onthat episode. So yeah, we’re gonna have, we’re gonna get into a little bit morescience. So the first. Was it Sue, we had a comic critic in review to open up theseries and now we’ve, we have you, Jonathan, on skin and yeah.
Then we have a couple scientists and a MD coming in to, toround out the fences of force. Yeah. So we’ll
Jonathan: befollowing these episodes. This is speaking to my nerdvana
geo: Yeah.
joe: yeah. No
geo: Science forweirdos.
joe: Science forweirdos is what someone told me. We, someone, we were out and someone said, oh,
geo: you do that
joe: And they go, yeah.It’s like we, I’ve been listening to it, it’s like science for weirdos andthat’s my thing, and
nick: I’m like,
joe: oh, I kinda likethat.
geo: It’s
nick: I
Jonathan: I, I thinkthat is dead on. Yeah. That’s, yeah.
geo: yeah. It’s beenjust
joe: a greatconversation
nick: thank you somuch for joining us.
geo: Go ahead and [00:56:00] plugs
joe: anything? You havesome new stuff coming out. I know for sure. So it’s,
Jonathan: yeah, I gotI, I’m, I got a lot of stuff going. I always have a lot of stuff coming out. Iwrote
geo: I saw your lastpost that you were outta
Jonathan: novel everythree minutes. Yeah.
joe: it said
geo: your brain wasoutta words.
nick: Yeah.
Jonathan: was, butI’ve already started the next novel.
nick: Novel,
joe: Congratulations.That’s awesome. Your inspiration to us young novelists
Jonathan: am I have agraphic novel coming out in June Joe Ledger and Violin Hearts and Minds, whichis a comic original story. Ba is set in my Joe Ledger world. Crystal lake isputting that out. And last year I had a really fun one was Godzilla versusKullu Comic.
geo: Oh, wow.
joe: Yep.
Jonathan: Comic orcome on games. But next up for me is the next Necro tech book deep Space Book,crafting Horror.
And we are in discussions with an anime company in Japan
joe: Cool.
Jonathan: based onthat series. Giant Me, mech Robots that Are Shape-Shifting piloted by the Ghostof Dead Pilots.
nick: Oh, damn.
joe: Yeah.
geo: Wow.
Jonathan: [00:57:00] the book that I just finished the otherday was the third in that series.
joe: That’s cool.
Jonathan: I love thefact I’m leaning more and more into science fiction these days.
I’ve got two different science fiction series running now. I.And it’s fun because, and this is one little thing I wanna just throw in beforeI skedaddle, is that one of the reasons I love working with scientists, talkingto experts in various fields for my books, there’s an old calm man saying, usenine truths to sell one lie that really applies great to any kind of fiction.
Because if you can build your fiction on a structure ofplausibility, it makes it so much easier for suspension of disbelief and alsothe trust when they know you’re stepping off that the top of that scaffold intofiction, they know that you’ve done your homework. So the fiction is gonna be areasonable extension of the non of the nonfiction, and they’ll go with you forthat.
But if you’re just making shit up so that you can tell ascience fiction story, there’s no structural basis to it, you’re only going toget the people who don’t know science. And that’s an increasingly small [00:58:00] number, I hope, because there’s a lot ofanti-science going on right now.
geo: right.
Jonathan: But
nick: Fingers
Jonathan: yourfingers crossed there are still people who want it to believe in it. They wantto believe that we can have superheroes. They want to believe that people cando this, that people will become stronger, that maybe somehow we’ll be able tosurvive a polluted planet and get wise enough to fix the planet.
So I love doing that. I love working with scientists. It’s fun.It’s so much fun for me to be on a podcast with people who understand scienceuntil I, that, that
joe: Thank
nick: you
geo: coming on andus. Yeah,
nick: What,
joe: Nick and Jordan
Jonathan: Nerds getit by extension. I’m not a scientist either, but all my science addictedfriends, we all love the fact that’s, that there’s real scientists out there
geo: right?
Jonathan: manyscientists are actually in the nerd
joe: Yeah.
nick: Oh, a hundred
joe: And I
geo: want,
joe: Jonathan, youdidn’t mention it, but we have some, I’m sure there’s some writer friends thatlisten, but you do a great masterclass series and so on different topics in thewriting, both [00:59:00] writing the art ofwriting, but also the business side of writing.
And, I’ve attended several
geo: of them
Jonathan: and they’refundraisers.
nick: And
joe: They’re alsofundraisers, right? The money goes to the no kill shelter or the
Jonathan: kill animalshelters, women’s shelters, homeless shelters. And these are programs thatprovide meals for children in, areas where they’re not getting it, family don’tenough income and 50 cents can buy a whole meal. I do a hundred percent of themoney from my workshops goes there.
It does a lot of good. And also, I hope people can use materialto get into the writing business because it’s more fun when there are more kidsin the playground.
nick: Definitely.
joe: No, so check itout, you writers out there,
nick: One lastquestion for you, if you don’t mind. Who is your favorite? Unbreakable skincharacter.
geo: Oh.
joe: oh,
geo: Oh, the
Jonathan: Oh, theHulk. I’m sorry.
geo: Yeah.
Jonathan: Sorry. Thething has always been my favorite unbreakable character because of the factthat he’s the hu the Hulk I liked, but the Hulk was Jekyll and Hyde with,dipped and green. The, it’s that, but the thing [01:00:00]he was always leaning into his humanism, An empathetic character and empath,when you have a character who looks like basically a big rock monster, butempathy is his trues super strength, man.
I gotta love a character like
nick: I’m so glad wehave you on this episode, because he is your favorite,
Jonathan: yeah. Andvery first comic I ever bought has him on the cover of it,
joe: Yeah.
Jonathan: 4 66.Believe that’s 1967. Good lord.
geo: That’s it.
joe: Awesome. Thanksagain for joining us. It was a lot of fun. And yeah, just a lot of cool nerdingout in pop culture,
nick: very much
Jonathan: and thanksfor inviting me on too. I had a lot of fun. I wish I had a little time rightnow, but I hope you guys will invite me back ’cause I’ll
joe: I will do. Yeah,no, definitely. No you already brought up several topics that we will have tohave you on now for, and, you know
nick: wait, are yougonna be the fourth rabbit in the hole?
joe: right.
Jonathan: And also I,with one of my upcoming classes, we haven’t set the date yet, but my, mymolecular biologist friend is going [01:01:00]to co-teach a class with me on working with
joe: Cool. That’d beawesome.
geo: That’s
Jonathan: be a lot offun too, ’cause a lot of writers don’t know how to ask the right questions andthey don’t know how to follow it down that rabbit hole into.
A plausible story and having a scientist on there would be fun.And if I’ll give you a free pass of that one, Joe, so you can join theconversation
joe: be fun. Yeah, no,
geo: and also theother way too, scientists don’t always know how to translate. That’s right.Their science communication is big,
joe: right?
That’s right. Yeah. And
geo: so they can use
A writer or they can use someone that the, the scientist just
joe: did a piece andthey, I was interviewed for, it was oh, it was like speculative fiction in, Howspeculative fiction and bench science kind of merge. And so they
Jonathan: that arecent
joe: of us.
It was, it came out last month. I can send you a link to it.Yeah, it was a fun, it was a few of us in it.
Jonathan: get thatand read it. I need to renew my subscription to the Scientist
joe: yeah. Yeah, no, itwas a fun article and had a couple quotes in there. So I was happy that [01:02:00] something came outta my interview.
Jonathan: I might betapping some information too. Getting a walk on in something.
geo: anytime, man,anytime I’ve helped
joe: other people ortried to help. ’cause sometimes people, you’re right they call and then they’relike, I wanna do this thing with this equipment. And I’m like, you can’t dothat thing with that equipment. Or there’s practical reasons why you won’t getthe image you think you’ll get, it’ll charge, it’ll look bad.
geo: And they go
joe: I need this is ifI can’t do it with that piece of equipment then my story fails. And I’m like
geo: you need,
Jonathan: story
nick: I’m like, weneed
geo: to, let’s have alonger conversation
joe: and figure thisout. And and some I, we did, it was like, you need this piece of equipment. Butthey’re like, but that’s not in that room.
And I’m like you need to have this scene happen in this roomnow because, so yeah.
Jonathan: Yeah. I’veactually had to repl whole novels because I talked to a scientist and found outthat my assumption, like writers, we have a lot of information in our head.Doesn’t mean we’re experts on it, but it’s enough to get us into trouble orhopefully to ask the right questions.
And I had this really great idea for something and I asked to acouple people who were into [01:03:00] nuclearscience, power plants and so on. My idea made no sense. It was laughably naive.I was like, oh shit. Glad I didn’t write the book. ’cause my editor didn’t knowit was a bad idea
Working with scientists, big important thing.
geo: Yeah, no.
joe: And experts andthings like that. No, it’s awesome.
geo: I’m
Jonathan: I’m theexpert that a lot of my friends tap for
geo: Martial arts.
nick: know. Yeah. I
joe: I was that’sawesome. I have a a friend, I don’t know if he joined the last one, I told himhe should get on, but I know he has a lot of action and fighting scenes and hedid wrestling and jiujitsu, so I was like, oh, you should jump on, becauseJonathan, he’s, that’s his background, especially writing those scenes andgetting it across.
Jonathan: Years now.
joe: yeah. Yeah.
geo: Cool. I
joe: know you need torun and so
Jonathan: stuff, sothanks. This guy, guys. I can hang with you
geo: I
nick: know. Yeah. I’mlike, Hey,
joe: That’s why I’mlike, Hey,
Jonathan: I will behappy to come back and and nerd out with you guys again.
nick: Absolutely.Anytime. Thank you.
geo: Thank you. Havea good night. Cheers.
nick: Thank you.
Jonathan: bye.
geo: Bye.
joe: you have me, Joe.
geo: We got Nick. Wegot
joe: Nick, we’ve got
geo: Georgia.
Georgia,
joe: and we’ve
nick: gone down some[01:04:00]
geo: holes,
joe: some tough skin
nick: tough skin.
joe: I dunno.
nick: Bye-bye.
joe: Hey, you stay safeout there. Stay strong.