Is Your Brain Lying to You?
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Joe: [00:00:00] Hey, welcome back to the Rabbit Hole of Research down here in the basement studio.
got me, Joe,
Georgia: You
Joe: you got Nick. We’ve got Nick. We’ve got Georgia, and we actually have a special guest with us.
Nick: well, hello there. Hello.
Joe: yeah. Yeah.
Katie: My name’s Katie.
Joe: We got Katie. Hello. Katie.
Katie: Coming all the way from Dc
Joe: From DC to the basement studio.
We got a full house here. Yeah. Every Mike’s occupied, so
Nick: is it? Yeah,
Joe: There’s a, there’s a fifth mic,
Nick: I was like, I thought we had more
Joe: We There are more, but that this is all we have set up in the basement studio. People that’ve seen pictures
Nick: I mean, I thought the fifth mic was given to the ghost
Joe: Yeah.
Nick: we had summoned
Joe: That’s right. Last, last month. Yeah.
Nick: I
Joe: Whatcha talking about? I don’t know what Nick’s talking about the other day we’re
Nick: It’s okay
Joe: talk about perception and perspective.
Nick: Georgia got [00:01:00] that one,
Joe: So that’s what we’re talking about. So, yeah. Cool.
Nick: Do you, do you have a list here, Joe?
Katie: I,
Joe: you know, I have lists, but I like going in with the definition ’cause perception and perspective.
They’re kind of sound close. So maybe I, I’ll,
Nick: I’m pretty sure we also had the same discussion
between
you, me and Georgia
Joe: have been one of the few
Georgia: Well, because I think I had the one word, I think now I don’t remember which one. And then all of a sudden I’m like, wait, no, that’s not what we’re doing. We’re doing perception, not perspective.
And then Nick was like, yeah, well what’s the difference?
Katie: Yeah. Yeah.
Georgia: So here, Joe, tell us. Yes.
Joe: So I
Georgia: do,
Katie: Oh,
Georgia: should we have, Katie, do you wanna tell us where you like where?
Katie: don’t know.
Georgia: I don’t
Joe: Didn’t she do that already? I
Georgia: say Washington dcs. Nevermind. Sorry.
Katie: It’s all good.
Joe: don’t, I don’t know what’s happening.
Nick: I, I dunno,
Katie: Dunno, my
Joe: perspective of this is, no, it’s just your percept. Let me, lemme get some definitions here. [00:02:00] We’re already in the episode. Yeah, so perception I guess, is the process of interpreting sensory information. The immediate, often unconscious filtering of sensory data through which we view the world influenced by biology, attention, memory, and context. You can think of it as, what am I seeing or what am I aware of?
Perspective is the interpretive framework or worldview applied to what we perceive influenced by beliefs, culture, experience, and ideology. Think, how do I understand or interpret what I see.
Other ways to think about it. If you’re more computer literate, is that perception is the hardware, the senses gather data, but they are imperfect, easily tricked and biased and perspective is a software, your mental framework interpreting the sensory feed.
And a play between your perception and perspective is where tension and really good stories can lie .
Nick: How do you mean?
Joe: Well, I mean, so one of the easiest ways is just if you think about you have a shift in your perception, [00:03:00] so new data, oh, altered states, things like that, then that will start creating tension in the story as the protagonist is going through and us as readers or viewers going through that story with them and interpreting the data on our own versus how the characters, ,
Six sense.
That’s, we can go there. It’s a very easy one. I mean,
Georgia: don’t spoil it.
Nick: Wait, what’s this movie about Joe? I don’t think I’ve seen it. What
Georgia: not,
Joe: It’s about a kid that sees dead people. Yeah, that’s, that’s kind of it. But yeah, you had that in there where , we had the perception of what was happening and what we thought was happening, what the character thought was happening, and then you, you, and along we were making perceptive kind of judgments about the story, and that tension was building, trying to figure out what was going on.
And then you get at the end, you get that nice twist where, oh, everything
Georgia: more information.
Katie: right. You
Joe: that different information. So I think that’s one way that you could set it up. And there’s a number of movies that Yeah. That do not go. Yep.
Georgia: Oh. Speaking of writing and [00:04:00] books and how this is, falls into that is point of view, you know, and that’s your perspective, right?
So a book could have several point of views in the same book. How you look at and you’re looking at the same
Joe: situation. Yes. Yep.
Georgia: yeah, yeah. I can
Nick: Yeah, I can see that.
Joe: Mm-hmm.
Katie: My first thought was art, like maybe it’s ’cause I was staring at the Gallery of art as I was like doing research for this.
But yeah, I then I ended up pulling up a few books about like perception and art and I went too deep. So many notes
Joe: you went deep down a
Georgia: is good.
Katie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Pulled out some children’s books about perception, such as I Hear A Pickle. It’s a great book. If you haven’t read it. I don’t
Georgia: I don’t know if I’ve heard that
Nick: that
Georgia: one.
Nick: Where did you pull these out of? I’m sorry.
Katie: The public library. Okay. Mm-hmm. Of
Joe: public
Nick: to make sure
Katie: the thing I work at. Oh, okay.
Nick: okay. Yeah.
Joe: So this is the second episode. We’ve had two librarians on
Nick: I know. This is
Joe: this. Is it? Yeah. So,
Nick: It’s like
Joe: trying to think
Nick: to support librarians or something.
Georgia: the [00:05:00] best.
Nick: best.
Katie: We know what we’re doing.
Joe: what was the other episode that
Georgia: It was Mary. Yeah.
Joe: I know. What, what was the topic? Not who, right? Multiverse. Oh, multiverse, yeah. Perception
Nick: of them
Katie: them.
Nick: how?
Georgia: of very similar in that
Joe: Yeah. I, I was trying to remember. I, I knew who was on it was like, what, you know, I, I knew Mary’s name. It was
Georgia: what was the topic? Yeah, multi.
Joe: Yeah, because the board doesn’t go back that far.
Georgia: Was season one wasn’t that. Season one.
Joe: it was the,
Nick: see my, wasn’t it Version of time does not add up
Georgia: that not, is that not what you perceived?
Joe: not, yeah. Right. You’re not your perception of,
Nick: I don’t know. When I am, apparently Georgia.
Katie: What year is it?
Nick: Who am
I? What am
Mm-hmm.
am I,
Joe: What am I seeing? Yeah.
Georgia: What were some of the other books that you,
Nick: Hmm.
Katie: No Shade to the author of this book. [00:06:00] But I was reading something called Key to Perception, and it was a little like woo woowee for me. And it just like I’m, I will say like I scanned this book mostly and like they really got into the weeds of I don’t know, it’s like kind of like witch adjacent and I’m like, you go girl.
But this is not what I was expecting when I was, when it was like the
Georgia: It was like, it was
Katie: was Yeah. Key to perception. I’m like, oh, oh,
Georgia: a different rabbit hole altogether.
Katie: yeah, yeah. That of spiritual. At one point I was reading about
Nick: is that why you were telling, telling me
telling me that?
Katie: Yeah. That’s why I texted you that the yeah, I got weird, weird thing.
At one point she was talking about end toning of E I OOs dunno if you’ve ever heard of that. Apparently it’s like a breathing technique that you’re supposed to like get, get your perception going and like into the spiritual world. I don’t know. I know too much about this now. Oh, wow. Yeah.
Joe: There you go.
Georgia: e
Nick: Where is the science in this one?
Joe: yeah, I know, I
Katie: I know.
Nick: Can you bring science to this?
Katie: to
Joe: that in the show notes. No, I got nothing but no Eio os
Nick: it[00:07:00]
Georgia: I actually,
Joe: like something else.
Georgia: actually, it reminds me of like, when I was an undergraduate, one of the first years, like it might have even been the first year and I was at A SU and it was a huge. Seminar class and it was like human sexuality 1 0 1. And the guy that taught it was like, I’m serious.
I think he was like 80 years old.
Katie: Same. I had someone,
Joe: fun
Georgia: And he’d been teaching it for many years, but he had the ooh, ah, yeah. Method. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it was very
Nick: what is it specific, I,
Georgia: If you’re enjoying something, you wanna you know, let ’em know. So you say, Ooh, ah,
Joe: and that would, that would affect the,
Nick: What? That
Joe: would be the perception that you’re enjoying it and the perspective. Then the other person would’ve, their perspective, just so that, that would fit into your perception and perspective.
Katie: Mm-hmm.
Joe: Mm-hmm.
Georgia: It’s about communication. Communication. Unless
Joe: you’re faking, and then that’s a,
Nick: wait, so what are we talking about now? I’m sorry.
Joe: we’re [00:08:00] talking about perception and perspective and how easily your senses can be fooled.
Georgia: And very
Joe: by saying Ooh and ah,
Georgia: there’s some very scientific Ooh, ah, research.
Joe: ooh, ah, research.
Nick: need to get into this research.
Joe: Well,
Nick: How do I find this?
Do
get a suit at the end?
Joe: Yeah, you, you’ll get a suit. Yeah. You get, you get something. I don’t know.
Katie: No, at the end, you actually get feeling the presence of spirits and energies.
Georgia: Woo.
I
Nick: I mean,
Katie: ew on and you’ll get there. Always. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Joe: Don’t, did you got anybody do that? The dress thing? The dress challenge?
Georgia: Oh yeah. What color
Joe: and it was like one was blue or gold or was it something like that.
Katie: like that. White
Nick: gold, right? Or black and gold.
Katie: thought it was gold. I don’t know. I thought it was blue and gold.
Nick: Maybe. I don’t
Joe: perception that was the same idea. Your perception and perspective shifted what you are preloaded to think dictated what color you would see
Katie: [00:09:00] mm-hmm.
In the
Joe: dress.
And so, but then that led to all these debates over truth and identity, , generational divides. , it was really fascinating. That was like 2015
Katie: Mm-hmm.
Joe: when that was big. So one of the, not maybe one of the early kind of internet phenomenons
Nick: I kind of forgot about that. I feel like
Joe: Yeah, that
Nick: that happened so long
Joe: Yeah.
Georgia: Yeah.
Katie: I had a resurgence recently, but it was like something else similar. Yeah. Like in the last year. Yeah.
Joe: But the Harlem,
Katie: globetrotters.
Joe: didn’t come out.
Georgia: The Harlem Shake. What does that have to do? What? I
Joe: I don’t know. It was like the same time.
Nick: talking about,
Katie: Oh my God. Yeah.
Georgia: Harlem
Nick: No.
Joe: never remember.
Nick: What’s the
Georgia: where they
Joe: to do one and it was
Georgia: You’re like video. And then,
Joe: and it was a perception and perspective. Yeah. Where you go and you’re doing one thing and then the music shifts and then all of a sudden Yeah.
Georgia: to you
Joe: know, yeah, there’s,
Georgia: everybody’s like dancing.
Joe: the beginning scene, there’s one person that’s kind of in frenetically in motion, and other people in the scene are like frozen in time.
And then as the song goes it, I think it drops the [00:10:00] beat or something like that. And then the screen blacks out and when it comes back on, the person who was in motion is still, and then everyone is just
Georgia: everybody’s
Joe: nuts around them.
Katie: Everybody,
Joe: It’s, they’re really fun. I mean, you never, you never,
Katie: you know, yeah. I don’t,
Georgia: you miss that.
Joe: it was, it was easily 10.
I mean, it was, you know, and then gun style was like, came right out. It was like all in this
Katie: I know, you know, some of these
Joe: of Yeah,
Nick: know Gunna style.
Joe: Yeah. Harlem Shakes was, yeah, it was the, it was like one early YouTube kind of, you know,
Nick: you have a video of you doing it, Joe?
Georgia: No, but he
Nick: I mean,
Joe: I really, really wanted to do one.
We could do one, like a Rabbit Hole of Research.
Georgia: I’m,
Nick: I am.
Joe: It’d be our first video. That’s it. We’re bringing it back. Oh yeah.
Nick: this something that needs to come
Joe: It was still like, I mean like a vine. I mean, remember Vine? I mean the Vines, like you would have those Yeah. No, that was in that same
Katie: see
Nick: was never in Vine.
Joe: Yeah.
Katie: I wasn’t, I watched the like YouTube.
Joe: Yeah.
Nick: compilations.
Katie: it. Yeah. I
Joe: was there at the original vibes though.[00:11:00]
Georgia: I
Joe: I made a vine, a couple vines, I think at a coffee shop.
Nick: Oh
Georgia: yeah.
Joe: that’s,
Katie: what
Nick: Was that part of the oohs and ahs, I’m sorry,
Joe: No, there was no, not,
Nick: the guttal, right? Yeah. Groan. Oh.
Joe: I, I think easy, easy. Two easy move movies,
Georgia: You okay there?
Joe: His, his perception has changed. We’ve, I will, I’ll comment on this, that the basement studio is, is currently under some sort of renovation.
Georgia: All you did was shift the table a little.
Joe: That’s, that’s enough to change
Katie: threw Nick off.
Joe: right?
Nick: throwing me off
Joe: perspective is now shifted and so Nick and in a new spot and, and I think it’s all gonna change again ’cause we are really trying to get ready for video. So the, a little aside on this episode and then you can see our perspective and of
Georgia: no. Well, they would [00:12:00] see their perspective of us.
Of us,
Joe: this is
Georgia: right?
Joe: deep. Well
Nick: them see what we want
them,
see. Okay.
Joe: Your perspective will be controlled. , but I was thinking two. Examples came right to mind and we don’t have to spend, a lot of times, I think a lot of people have is the Matrix and the other one is, is Alice in Wonderland.
Mm-hmm. I think those are the two biggies where
Georgia: perception, the original rabbit
Joe: are. And Alice in Wonderland definitely, one of the originals there. 1865 Louis Carroll had that, so
Nick: was it really? 1865?
Joe: it was
Georgia: Yeah. I
Nick: why I thought it was like,
Katie: yeah.
Georgia: And I think the thing about Alice in Wonderland in general, is always associated with was there drugs involved?
And so that’s an interesting take on the Perce perception perspective because drugs can definitely that
Katie: Yeah.
That alter state.
Georgia: Yeah.
Joe: your state. And, and, and at some level, the matrix, he chose the red and blue pill.
Georgia: Right.
Joe: So it also had the [00:13:00] kind of drug, you’re un, you’re untapping some extra,
Nick: the full
Joe: That’s right.
Yes. Yeah. To become the one, the one not the,
Nick: be one. Oh, wait and wrong
Joe: That was That’s right. I was gonna say that
Nick: was
Georgia: There can only be one.
Joe: right.
Nick: No, that was the Highlander. Right?
Joe: That it also had a one. But in the one, the movie, the one by Jet Lee, he says that at the end, or I don’t know if he ever says that.
Georgia: think he does. There can only be one.
Joe: No, he says something else
Nick: I feel like we’re going off on a weird hole.
Joe: Well,
Katie: talking about.
Georgia: There is no such thing. Every, every hole is
Joe: but it
Nick: weird hole
Katie: it up.
Joe: I, I think it might be 1951 was the animated movie that came out, so that probably shifted your
Georgia: Oh yeah. Perspective. The Disney.
Nick: Yeah. Yeah. I thought that was the original.
No,
Joe: no. It was least don’t
Georgia: Very.
Nick: Oh my God.
Georgia: Went way back. Yeah.
Joe: about getting canceled. Yeah. Don’t do that.
Nick: With two
Katie: library folks in the room. [00:14:00] What? What are you doing?
Nick: I thought it doesn’t become real until it’s a movie. Is that not
Joe: Oh boy. Disney movie. Disney
Nick: movie
Katie: for the Alice in Wonderland. Like I had an actual, like in-person experience with this where I was a little drunk.
I was in London and we, it was like a experience where you’re like going through the Allison Wonderland story,
Joe: right.
Katie: right? And like an old, like underground, like I think it used to be the tube but it was empty, so they were doing like live performances and just like it. The way I was interpreting Allison Wonderland drunk while also like it being in front of my face Right.
Was like, it was honestly more scary. I
Joe: imagine. Right, right.
Katie: Yeah, it was, I was not anticipating it to be scared
Joe: you drink things and eat things while you were going
Katie: Yeah. So did
Joe: they have little
Katie: Yeah, they had a little, yeah. At the same time
Nick: at the same
Katie: there, there were actual like perceptions like that, like how they actually did the scales of the room.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:15:00] And at one point you’re like at a dining table, like with teacups and it was another alcoholic drink that changed colors. Yeah, it was, it was really cool if I really hope to do something like that again, but maybe
Georgia: cool.
Katie: That’s really
Joe: that made me think when you were talking about the rooms. Was the Museum of Illusion in Philadelphia and they’re, I think they’re around, they look like they’re kind of chain. Yeah. Right.
And so, but I think
Georgia: and we went to the Wonder Museum
Joe: Museum, but the Museum of Illusion had the rooms where you get in and all sorts of things where you get in and it really plays with your, per your perspective of everything.
Georgia: perception.
Katie: Hmm.
Joe: Well,
Katie: I think
Joe: it’s skewing your perception.
Georgia: how you perceive the room.
Right.
Joe: right. So it’s messing with both. I think they, they interplay with each other. Right. ’cause the perception of how you look at things is your interpretate your in input, and then you, you interpret that through your perspective and you go, oh, ’cause your brain is saying that I know that this, they’re not smaller.
You know, you know, the relatively, they [00:16:00] might not be shorter or that short. And then, you know, you’re trying to, you know, kind
Katie: like those carnival spinning wheels, like it’s fair season. But you’ve never been to, like at the fair, they have these houses that you have to make your way through.
And at one point there’s typically like this spinning tunnel that you have to just walk straight.
Georgia: Is that the like house of Mirrors kind of
Katie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Nick: had it spinning.
Katie: Yeah.
Georgia: I
Joe: Museum of Illusion, they had one, they had a, a little tunnel you could go through and it had that, and it was really
Katie: Yeah.
Joe: the ramp.
You’re not, you feel like you’re
Katie: you feel like you’re spinning, you feel like you’re spinning. It made me like car sick, almost
Joe: It’s really crazy. Like you go in and it, it feels like you’re just going, you know, in a dryer, tumbling around.
Nick: weird question. If you have bad eyesight, which I think at least two of us here have bad eyesight, does it affect the way you see the things in those illusion museums? Or what? I mean,
Joe: if
Katie: don’t have a current prescription, probably. Right?
Joe: Yeah. I [00:17:00] mean, if you got blurry vision, I mean, yes. You’re, you
Georgia: you,
Joe: real, I mean, I
Georgia: see double
Joe: it’s
Nick: listen, my eyesight’s great.
Katie: Mm-hmm.
Joe: You’re like, yes. No, that, I mean that that changes everything. Right? I mean, I think if you.
Nick: like, I mean the, the seeing things that are bigger and smaller is that
Joe: Right. Yeah. I don’t know if,
Georgia: I think bringing science into it, that’s a great point. Like. How we, we use our eyesight for, and how, how much do we compensate for like bad eyesight, you know what I mean?
Joe: Well your brain does a lot of the heavy lifting. If it knows, it will try to fill in the gaps that they do have.
One where they have. They show pictures of like famous people that are really recognizable. And then when you, if you actually flip the image, you realize that they’ve, they’ve screwed the eyes up, but it’s upside down. And so because the face is upside down, your brain fixes it so you recognize it. It’s called the Thatcher effect. But then when you flip it to the right side [00:18:00] view, you see the eyes, nose and mouth were manipulated, but your brain will fix it. And actually, that’s probably one of the reasons why our perception
Katie: can
Joe: be, you can be tricked.
Our brains can easily tricked into believing things because they’re trying to present the world in the way you expect it to .
Nick: your brain is lying to you.
Joe: Your brain is lying to you.
Nick: Is is that gonna be the name of this episode? Your brain is lying to
Joe: Well, maybe it should be. Yes, it’s right. Yeah.
Nick: Is this the episode we go
Georgia: think that your brain is trying to help you out? I don’t think it’s being malicious.
Nick: I mean, I don’t know if it’s, if it’s not letting me see what’s wrong with the world. If there was something going wrong. And like I look at it and I’m like, what is is is, I mean, it could be saving me if I was, you know,
Joe: well, your, your brain has, you gotta think like humans from some evolutionary point of view. You were very, it was very advantageous to look at things and make very [00:19:00] quick decisions based on that quick look if it’s safe or if it’s dangerous.
And so your brain is making all these assumptions based on other patterns. And so our brains are really good at finding patterns, very good at organizing things in the categories, you know, safe to eat, not so safe to
Nick: eat.
Joe: you know, makes you,
Nick: by licking it,
Joe: yeah
Nick: at
Joe: don’t lick it.
Nick: No, that’s the way you do it. We’ve already been over this, this is why we
Joe: all that’s a different episode.
I just, that’s
Georgia: Do not lick it. Don’t lick it.
Joe: It’s really it’s really fascinating that, that how your brain, and there’s actually. While I was looking up different things was a predictive coating. And it’s this neuroscience theory that says your brain isn’t a passive recording instrument, kind of recording things that come in the sensory information.
It’s more like a predictive engine that constantly guesses what’s out there and only updates when it’s really surprised. So your brain is [00:20:00] actually trying to figure out what’s going on before you get there. So it’s giving, it’s delivering you information that says, well, this is what I think is happening.
And then when you get surprised, that’s when your brain, oh, we were fooled. And that’s why I think. Fun houses, things like that. You know, kind of, what do they call the at Halloween time, you go through the, the haunted houses. Mm-hmm. Right? I was trying to think. I was like, what is those things called?
Yeah. Haunted houses where you are, your perception as you go through has one thing, and then you get surprised and it, it, it freaks you out even though you think, oh, this is fake. And your brain is yeah, this is fake. And then you get boom. Like, why, why did that really surprise you? You knew going in there, what’s gonna happen, but you are caught off guard by those things.
So your brain is trying to predict the situation and how best to navigate it.
Nick: So doesn’t your brain try to predict a lot of things though too?
Like people with anxiety, they tend to be able to try to predict the next words coming outta someone’s mouth and then. Right? I don’t know. Is that that might just be me. I
Joe: it.
Nick: I know I do it,
Joe: I think we do [00:21:00] it. Yeah. Everybody
Nick: I’m constantly like trying to figure out what’s Joe gonna say next so I can have something funny to say back to him.
And then he just looks at me like, why are you saying that Nick?
Joe: and you’ve trained improv and you are trained, really trying to train the perceived signals how people are, are motioning their, they’re
Nick: their face, how, what’s exactly,
Joe: Yeah,
Nick: what’s the next look they’re gonna do.
Georgia: But then that gets into like stereotypes and That’s right. You know what I mean?
Katie: making right, starts
Joe: making bad assumptions and then they stick. Right. Because
Nick: wait, how? How so, I’m sorry. I was,
Georgia: Are you serious?
Nick: Yeah, no, I’ll, no, I’m
Georgia: saying that’s also what gets us into trouble because it’s that’s how stereotypes are,
Nick: Oh, I thought you were saying like people had an improv just stereotyping
We moved past
are
Georgia: No, no, no. I’m just saying,
Katie: I was like,
Joe: he’s about to
Katie: defend
Joe: improv community.
Nick: Oh no, I’m not gonna defend shit for that. No, I was just trying to figure out, oh
Georgia: no, I’m just
Nick: how
can be mad at them. No,
Georgia: No, I’m just saying. You understand what I mean?
Nick: Yep, yep. No, I do. Our brain[00:22:00]
Georgia: jumps to conclusions or, or they fill, it fills in these things that maybe shouldn’t be filled in, you know?
Joe: and that, and that part, that’s your brain’s not processing ever been information that, that’s why it’s easy to gloss over things. You’re like, oh, the, you know, the, the cup is right there on the counter
Katie: Oh yeah. You’re like,
Joe: I don’t see the cup. What are you talking about? And you’re like, it’s right there.
And you go,
Nick: so is this why the Mandela effect comes in? Because people don’t pay attention to shit.
Joe: That’s probably, yes. That is and this is just a theory and this isn’t proven that this is why
Nick: no, this is a hard fact. These people can’t see shit.
Katie: was
Joe: that your, that your, the way your brain is processing information is a theory of how that works.
So this is kind of as predictive coding, it’s one, it’s one of the ways to explain a lot of these phenomenon.
Georgia: think it’s interesting ’cause we’ve talked about this before about AI compared to a human brain and how the human brain works versus how ai, but in, in this way, I think AI is doing that same thing.
I think this is what they wanna hear. So I’m just gonna throw all this crap
Nick: I do.
Katie: [00:23:00] ChatGPT Yeah. Yeah. The kid. Yeah. I worked with teenagers and they would always talk about oh, I gotta this paper and then go throw it into the ai. I’m like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Use your brain.
Joe: That’s right. Yeah. So I, speaking of AI, did you guys see the story about how a chatbot’s conversation convinced a man he was a superhero?
Nick: No. What? That’s not what I thought you were gonna
Georgia: think
Joe: yeah, no, it was this
Georgia: this guy was very impressionable.
Katie: Yes.
Joe: No, it was interesting. So the New York Times, just this guy he was from Toronto Allen Brooks. He was 47. And he thought he had discovered with using chat, GPT, this kind of a novel mathematical formula. And it started out with this kid asking him to explain pie you know, the mathematical expression pie.
So he put in a chat, GPT, and then he got going on this conversation. And at the end, the Chachi bt was like, wow, you’re really, you’re really thinking about this in new ways. Here’s this idea. [00:24:00] And they kept going on and on and at some point it was like he could harness sound resonance to talk to animals and build a levitation machine.
And then the formula turned out that if anyone got this formula that he could take down the internet and, do all this weird stuff. People could make force field vests. And he was sending it to his friends Hey, is this crazy? What’s going on? He kept asking ChatGPT, Hey, is this, are you really pulling my leg?
Are you fooling me? This sounds a little, you know, I’m writing. He started writing experts and they were like, not, they were ghosting. I’m like, you know, ’cause this, you know, he is you know, this kind of crazy talk. And he was not getting speech. He’s no one’s writing me back. Oh, they’re, they’re, their minds are closed to innovation.
And it was this whole thing. And so chat, GPT just got him going and he was just going for about three weeks. He thought that he was trying to
Georgia: was he sleeping? Was he he eating? I mean, that, I think he had some,
Joe: He
Katie: He stopped just there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Georgia: going on.
Joe: he was smoking pot
Georgia: Well, there
Katie: down.
Yeah.
Joe: was just going, so he had over, there was like 2000 messages that were passed back and forth between him and chat, CPT.
So finally, and he was [00:25:00] asking friends, he was trying to invest money ’cause this, these ideas, he was like trying to get money and startup capital.
Georgia: gosh. And so,
Joe: he took the information from chat GPT and put that into another chat box, I think it was Claude, and said, Hey, what do you think about this idea? And it was like this is nothing
And so the whole idea was that when he moved the chat, GPT had built up this conversation with them and they’re designed somewhat to be pleasing. Like they, they don’t wanna call the human an idiot. Mm-hmm. So they’re like, oh yeah, that was a great idea. Yeah. You’re, you’re doing great.
You’re thinking like, no one else has thought this before. And he went and club was like, nah, this is, this is all garbage. Like you shouldn’t invest any money. Because it was, it was a new conversation and it was coming at it. What do you think of this idea? And it was like, eh, this, this idea is dumb.
You know people
Katie: friends and family didn’t stop him or check on him. He was
Joe: yeah, they were like bought into it. ’cause
Georgia: I know. Did he live by himself?
Joe: he, I think it was him and his son. And so New York Times did a great piece where
Nick: and [00:26:00] he’s 47.
Joe: 47 and they, they analyzed the
Nick: fuck’s sake
Joe: and he, he was just fine.
And so I read through the me, it was kind of interesting. It was like, if you’re writing like a science fiction story, it was cool. But if you’re actually like, I think this is the way the
Georgia: living through that.
Joe: yeah. So you had this very limited science knowledge. You went to this chat, this predictive engine
Georgia: generating
Joe: kind of text for you that’s tailored to your conversation and you go down this, he went down this rabbit hole and he thought he was gonna save the world from this, you know, he figured out this mathematical formula if it fell into the wrong hands.
Bad things will happen. And he also could make a lot of money if he invested in it now, got on the ground in, he would be ahead of the curb. Yeah. His brain just got tricked, his perception and then his perspective went down and he started buying into it.
And during to conversation, he had doubts. He was like, I don’t know about this. How come I’m the first to think about this? You know, I don’t have, I didn’t even finish. I barely finished high school. So how am I thinking of this great novel formula and no one else has?
And it was like, well, it’s ’cause you’re asking the right questions. You’re, you’re actually [00:27:00] challenging the, the paradigms and you’re going at it. So yeah, it’s like very it was interesting, but I, I thought that fit perfectly in what we’re talking about and how, a predictive engine could get you in trouble just like your brain and get you in trouble, you know, go down these rabbit holes.
Katie: so, right. I mean, honestly, that’s a better AI story than the one I read, which is like top 40 jobs that can be replaced by AI.
My job was on there archivist. I laughed very hard.
Georgia: Yeah,
Katie: and it was, it was biased though. It was like it was a Microsoft study, so I’m like, like that. One more.
Joe: yeah. You should ask it if you’re gonna be a superhero archivist.
Katie: That’s it. How can an
Joe: save the world?
Katie: Yes, that’s a
Joe: point. You’re awesome.
Katie: Yes.
Nick: Oh,
Joe: give you, what’s the, what’s that movie with Nick Cage?
Nick: Which one?
Joe: The one where they were going to artifacts,
Georgia: narrows it
Nick: National
Treasure. Thank you.
Joe: National Treasure. That’s it. Thank you. Yes, yes.
Nick: I
wait till the third one.
Katie: That’s a thing.
Nick: hopefully, oh my gosh.
Katie: There’s no way. There’s no way.
Georgia: Don’t get your hopes up.
Katie: Yeah,
Joe: I just [00:28:00] had to, I just had to mention Nicholas Cage. My,
Georgia: I was gonna say he had to be in mentioned at
Nick: I mean, I can pitch a third one if we want.
Joe: And he was in upper percept Face Off.
Georgia: Yeah,
Joe: That was like kind of a perception perspective. I
Katie: only watch that once.
Georgia: that’s been a really long time
Joe: it’s been a while.
Just came up and I was
Georgia: I’d like to see that again. Actually I couldn’t.
Katie: I couldn’t. It’s too Gru. What you
Nick: what do you mean it’s too
Joe: it wasn’t,
Georgia: It’s John Wu, right? John Wu. He, yeah, I’m pretty sure that
Nick: Is it
Georgia: John Wu,
Nick: the one who did
John Wick?
Joe: No, I don’t think
Georgia: I thought, no,
Joe: he did hard boiled.
Katie: Yeah, you’re right.
Georgia: Yeah. Hard boiled. He did he was from China and so there’s Likehow
Joe: who did John win?
Nick: did? John Wick. Katie, I see you’re on your phone.
Joe: We’re doing research as we go
Nick: as we go on the fly,
Joe: making sure your perspective stays intact
Georgia: because he did all the, the ones what
Katie: chapter one
Chad Alki.
Georgia: Oh yeah.[00:29:00]
Joe: there it is.
Now another movie that involved hallucinations blending and we just wa is Jacob’s Ladder
Georgia: Tim Robbins,
Joe: this, this very 1990
Georgia: have, oh my gosh.
Joe: Messed
Georgia: That’s the movie that I saw it many, many, many years ago and it’s still just, it’s kind of haunts you after you see that
Katie: Yeah. See, that’s what I’ve heard. That’s why I haven’t watched it.
Georgia: It’s, it’s really good. But yeah. Intense. But it’s totally yeah, that idea of not knowing what’s really real. Mm-hmm. Real reality. And what’s the perception?
Katie: Yeah.
Georgia: Yeah, sleep
Joe: deprivation comes in that one.
I mean, he is
Katie: when
Joe: of going, he is dying. I mean, so
Georgia: post-traumatic stress because he was in Vietnam and then was there extra drugs given and that’s the whole idea that Yeah.
Nick: And this is Jacob’s Ladder.
Joe: Jacob’s Ladder. Really
Georgia: put that on your list. Yeah.
Katie: Yeah. Yeah.
Joe: I mean, think of, I mean, we’ve [00:30:00] centered a lot of our conversation around sight, but our other senses can also feed into this.
So hearing and , a lot of movies where you’re hearing sounds and they’re triggering kind of audio illusions of what’s going on. Or Nick got something to say, so I’m gonna stop right there. So,
Nick: Would it be all right? All right. So this happened the other day. Someone was talking to me and I don’t know what I was doing, but they were like right in front of me and I did not hear them until I heard like something drop. And I’m like, what? Is that under this whole perspec
Georgia: now do is, was that a matter of that you just tune them out or you
Nick: I
Georgia: couldn’t, or you just couldn’t
Joe: ’em? You were like,
Nick: I think
I think it was because
Georgia: I’ve done that before where all of a sudden I realized, oh, I’m not listening.
Nick: Like I didn’t know that. Like they started talking and then by the time I realized, they were like, oh, you didn’t hear a word I said, did you?
And I’m like,
you
Katie: were
Nick: talking.
Joe: Yeah. And your brain, I mean, right. You could be, if that’s, if we go by this predictive coding kind of [00:31:00] theory in your brain, could just be making assumptions that this is this person. They’re not doing whatever. You’re doing something else that might need more attention.
And you’re just kind of filling in the blanks of a person. Oh, this person’s there, but not really paying attention. What else were you doing? Were you doing something?
Nick: Nothing. I think I was just, I looked at my phone and then went off. I think I just walked
Georgia: It’s like, it’s like in iron Man. It was, it’s like in
Nick: Oh,
Georgia: which, which MCU movie.
Is that where he tells him the whole story and then he
Joe: oh, that was, that was
Georgia: he hadn’t listened at all
Katie: three.
Joe: I can’t remember which one. Yes, he was laying on the couch and
Banner was like, I’m not that kind of doctor.
Katie: Oh, oh yeah, yeah.
Georgia: he goes, you haven’t heard anything I’ve said, have you?
And he
Nick: I think that was the
Katie: Avengers movie.
Joe: that the Avengers movie? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, and he was like, I’m not that kind of doctor.
Katie: Well,
Joe: hearing is one where you can go and you can play around, you know, kind of false cues and
Katie: all.
Nick: of Tron
Katie: Hearing gets me in my house all the time. Yeah. My cat thumps and I think someone broke
Joe: right,
Nick: Oh. [00:32:00] Just like how you thought my old house was haunted.
Your old house was haunted. It
Joe: Oh
Georgia: She didn’t think it. She knows
Joe: knew
Katie: And my bones,
Joe: you feel a touch? ’cause that’s also
Katie: Oh, I left once in the middle of the night.
’cause I got two spooks
Joe: Oh, I think you got touched. And I was like, all right. This is, we need to edit that.
Georgia: You got some friendly ghosts?
Joe: right. Yeah.
Katie: I just kept hearing noises in the, the corner of the room and I’m like,
Nick: thought you said it was in the kitchen that you heard
noise. Maybe it was. It was both.
said it’s, didn’t you say there was something on the fridge?
Katie: Yeah. And I left
Joe: Get
Katie: out.
Nick: mean, that house was weird.
Katie: Yeah. Yeah. I would never go in that basement.
Nick: There was no basement. Katie,
Katie: thinking your current house. I’m thinking your current house.
Nick: Are you afraid of my current house?
Katie: I’m afraid of your current house. Yeah. Sorry. That’s why I only come back once a year.
Joe: get
Georgia: Aw.
Joe: But touch we, yeah, touch. I mean, that’s in VR takes advantage of [00:33:00] that haptic kind of signaling and things
Nick: like ready player one, where they have all
Joe: Player one.
Ready Player one. Yeah, that’s one. So yeah, so, smell and Taste. This came up another episode.
Nick: vision,
Joe: Oui. And the food memory. That was one night that came up. And that was in I think the, the time. Crimes and time
Nick: Oh yeah.
Joe: We did that right at two. Yeah. Yeah. But that’s, that’s one where your perception, your memory, all that’s being recalled,
Nick: The reviewer just,
Georgia: I think that’s why it’s, I think that’s
Joe: different hypothesis of what happened. Sorry.
Georgia: I think that’s why it’s so easy for us to. Imagine like the matrix or ’cause we have the sim simulation Hypothesis. Hypothesis. Hi Wes.
Nick: You know,
Georgia: and I think that’s why it’s so, it’s so easy for us to kind of, and even like conspiracy theories, I mean, it’s so easy for us because our brain is able to kind of imagine all these other,[00:34:00]
Nick: make connections where there are none.
Georgia: Well, I didn’t say that.
Joe: No, that’s, I mean, I think you’re right.
Georgia: did we prove that simul, the simulation
Nick: Yeah. I’m pretty sure Joe and I did
Joe: Yeah, we did. It doesn’t
Georgia: doesn’t, it could exist.
Nick: there’s too much going on in anything to have enough memory space to do this.
Georgia: Alright, well
Joe: yeah.
Nick: sorry Wes,
Joe: Yeah, we’re, we’re out. I think he’s got some new evidence he sent.
So he is, he’s gonna come back
Nick: We’ll do a part two. We’ll
Joe: do a part two, we’re gonna do a part two. Next, third, third season. We’ll, we’ll try to find space
Georgia: And we’re gonna talk about,
Joe: I think severance is the, severance is what the, the one where severance does a great job.
Georgia: Yeah. Talk about perception and being able in your brain to switch something on and off, you know,
Katie: So mad at that series right now. Yep. I have opinions.
Nick: I haven’t seen it.
Georgia: Oh. Oh, you gotta
Nick: are you shocked? You knew this.
Georgia: I know what I forgot.
Katie: It’s so good.
Georgia: It’s [00:35:00] so good.
Joe: But speaking of that, a lot of shows we, we have these five senses. You know, they usually will remove a sense to kind of really build tension in the story.
So a quiet place is one that does that where you remove hearing. You know, and, and you kind of take that sense away and, and write. And so you kind of then has this, you know, the bird box with cite you know, Daredevil, you know, so you have this, did you say Bird Box? No.
Nick: I said Daredevil. I was just,
Joe: no, I was, I was amplifying Dar I mean, because I got, I was getting
Nick: I forgot about Bird, bird Box.
That was such a, what? That was, that was
Georgia: that was a while ago. Yeah.
Nick: 2020. That was early pandemic. Right? That’s why I was like, I
Joe: can’t, yeah,
Georgia: you can’t remember that far back. No.
Joe: No, you’re like,
Nick: have a very limited,
Georgia: very
Nick: limited memory space.
Joe: you have shows where they add.
Katie: you know,
Joe: a sense, so you get telepathy,
Nick: Mm.
Katie: Mm.
Joe: you know, and
Georgia: you got the We or John Waters, you got the Scratch and Sno.
Joe: Well scratch and that’s
Katie: Yes.[00:36:00]
Joe: Scratch that
Georgia: That really changes your perspective
Joe: Yes. Not to go to the John Waters scratch and sniff movie.
Georgia: If you could that, I mean, I don’t think they do that very often, so if that’s available, you should
Joe: I think he’s still an eBay can find some unscratched sniffers.
Georgia: that’s probably pricey.
Joe: I don’t know. I mean, it might be worth the smell of some dog poo and puke. I mean, I don’t know.
Katie: I’m good. Thank you.
Joe: Yeah,
Katie: It’s okay.
Joe: familiar with John Waters, right? So Yeah. His movies. Yeah. So you can imagine what was there. Yeah. But, but you know, you have that, or if you could see an ultraviolet or infrared, like you had different senses that would come in, new information now would be available to you.
And, and how would that affect
your. Perspective. Mm-hmm. Okay.
Georgia: And I think it’s interesting talking about it from like a social, ’cause we talked about prejudice and stereotypes, like how willing are we to change those set ideas that we have when we do get new [00:37:00] information.
Do you know what I’m saying?
Nick: Yeah. It, it really depends on how you take it. Like not everyone’s gonna be able to take new information and be like, all right, I understand this and I will adapt.
Georgia: Right. Or you or, or, yeah. Or it’s that doesn’t fit my worldview, so
Katie: Or they’re just unwilling,
Georgia: so I’m just not gonna, even,
Nick: This is
different from what I grew up believing. Mm-hmm. I refuse to change.
Joe: I also think how’s that tie into empathy and things like that, these kind of emotions that you have, because that also your perspective perception skews and probably depending on your empathy and and how empathetic you are, that’s probably a little more accepting to
Georgia: much can I really relate to what you’re going through, even though I’m, I mean, it
Nick: on how much is in my bank account.
Joe: Yeah. Is that, that it
Georgia: well, you can empathize and not be able, you can empathize and not be able to help somebody. I [00:38:00] really feel bad, but I’m sorry. I
Nick: the 1% that have no empathy.
Georgia: Exactly. The ones that could really,
Joe: I mean,
Katie: they
Georgia: could spend a lot of money, right?
Joe: And then some, some probably do. That’s not fair to all. The one percenters. I mean, she’s
Georgia: There’s maybe 1% of the 1%.
Joe: Yeah. 1% of the 1%
Georgia: 1%. And if you are listening,
Joe: yes.
Katie: you’re the 1%
Joe: that cares, we are trying to get video here and redo the basement studios.
So step in. Thank you.
Georgia: So,
Nick: I had a new suit
Joe: Yeah. And Nick’s willing to lick some sort of food item.
Georgia: Okay. That could get us
Nick: you be
Georgia: wrong kind of sponsorship.
Nick: No, no, no, no. We’ll, we’ll, we’ll leave it, we’ll run with that.
You
Georgia: all ideas.
Joe: Yeah.
Katie: I’m gonna go foraging when I go to Washington, I’ll bring you back some mushrooms to
Georgia: please. Ooh.
Katie: Mm-hmm.
Georgia: And then we’ll have,
Joe: we’ll have a mushroom
Katie: Mm-hmm.
Nick: We’ll have to get Molly back for that one.
Yes,
Joe: Molly. Or get a, or get a [00:39:00] mycologist. Not a
Georgia: Pedro Pascal if he’s a Wil.
Katie: mycologist.
Nick: Who’s that?
Joe: Somebody.
Oh my god.
Somebody who studies.
Nick: I know, I was joking. I was,
Joe: ’cause Mycology is better than urology.
Katie: couldn’t tell if you were joking or
Joe: I know. I couldn’t tell either. My, my
Nick: I couldn’t tell either. Lot of
Georgia: a lot of times we’re not able
Joe: my perception was he is not joking. But he’s such a fun guy.
Georgia: Ah,
Katie: You, you’re talking about Nick.
Georgia: so this is a little heavier,
Katie: Mm-hmm.
Georgia: but the movie The Voices and by Ryan Ryan Reynolds. Have you seen that? Oh yeah. And that movie really got me it. It’s such a well-made movie. Have you ever seen it?
Katie: No.
Georgia: And it stars Ryan Reynolds and it’s where he hears voices and one of the voices is from his cat and one is from his dog.
And the voices tell him to [00:40:00] do certain things. But that movie is I’ve never watched anything that I think really.
Katie: It
Georgia: Makes you feel what a mental illness would feel like. And I guess his, his diagnosis was schizophrenia
Nick: Mm-hmm.
Georgia: and I actually found that at this one conference, they did a whole study about it, the voices in schizophrenia, a critical multi-model modal analysis.
But it’s talking about how through movies we’re able to get a perspective of certain things, and this was getting a perspective of schizophrenia and. This will be in the show notes. ’cause I’m gonna send it to you, Joe.
Joe: No guarantee. But, but
Georgia: But it’s just really, it was very interesting and I don’t wanna talk too much about it because I don’t wanna spoil it at all because it’s one of those
Joe: really good. Yeah. The twist is really
Georgia: you just watch it, you [00:41:00] just go
Nick: but the twist,
Georgia: It’s intense. It’s intense. But, but I think getting the viewpoint right in a movie is difficult
Nick: definitely do think that is one of those that it’s oh, ’cause having that schizophrenia view, which is such a powerful thing to see, which I don’t know if Katie, you’ve played the game hell Blade as well. Mm-hmm. Where that’s a another, that’s a game where you’re going through and you’re hearing all these voices
tell
Joe: you mm-hmm.
Nick: so many mean and hateful
Georgia: things. Mm-hmm. And
Nick: you’re the player who’s taking this
Georgia: game, I, I feel like I would never wanna play that game. Well, I
Nick: It’s such a good game. It’s like
Georgia: That’s entertainment
Nick: and the game lies to you.
Katie: like
Nick: straight up lies to you at the beginning saying, oh yeah. You can die so many times, but you don’t know how many times you can die before the game just deletes itself.
And it’s that’s a lie that it starts off telling you just ’cause you were in this mind space then.
Katie: Wow. And boy, do you believe it?
Nick: [00:42:00] Oh yeah.
It took me five ever. ’cause ’cause I stopped playing ’cause I was like, Hmm, I don’t know how many more times I could die. And then I was like, you know what? I’m just gonna keep playing.
And I died a lot and I,
Joe: because now you’re spoiled it,
Nick: Honestly, I’m okay with that one.
Joe: Well, it
Nick: I want people to be able to finish this game because it’s that good.
Katie: Mm-hmm.
Georgia: Right. So a tip, keep playing.
Joe: playing. But you had mentioned you did a thought experiment where you had the headphones and the voices. Was that right? Yeah. I can’t remember what episode you talked
Nick: I don’t know. That was a
Georgia: I was a long
Joe: the listeners. They might, we had some new listeners maybe.
Nick: Yeah. So I, I, I, I hung out in Chicago one day with headphones in. I had the schizophrenia like voices in your head. And that that definitely messes you up. I don’t suggest doing that.
Joe: Yeah. You were walking around downtown Chicago and there’s tons of people, Chicago’s
Nick: headphones in and
Joe: And voices. Yeah.
Nick: Voices talking in your ears and you’re just like, huh.
Joe: So your perception is being
Nick: this is really weird.
Georgia: Right? Wow.
Joe: No. [00:43:00] Yep.
Georgia: Something like
Nick: what Katie,
Katie: Oh, I just I, I’m thinking about like myself trying to do that and I, there’s no way, like I am so anxious as it is.
Georgia: last long. I’d be like,
Joe: now, do you have it loud or the voice is coming anywhere to the
Nick: loud enough to be able to hear the outside, but it’s not loud enough to block out everything.
Joe: But were the voices at different levels? Yes. In there.
Georgia: And is this, was this, somebody had a recording that would simulate Yes. Schizophrenia,
Nick: audible hallucinations.
Georgia: Okay.
Nick: Yeah.
Georgia: you just saw that and said, Hey, I think I
Nick: I think I looked it up for something.
Georgia: Okay.
Nick: And if I can find it again. Yeah. I’ll,
Georgia: we could put it in the
Nick: we’ll, we’ll make you
Joe: so I, yeah, we touched on it. Yeah. They aren’t Nick liquid jump on it, but
Nick: what did, what did I miss?
I miss paranormal?
Joe: How, how your perception,
Nick: already talking about paranormal.
We’ve definitely hit
We hit
Georgia: We had, yeah. We talked about ghosts
Nick: We were talking about my haunted house.
Mm-hmm.
Joe: oh, [00:44:00] that okay. Yeah. But you didn’t go any further, man.
I thought, okay,
Nick: I mean, we, I, what did you have?
Georgia: Okay.
Joe: We, we’ll
Nick: And we talked about how we have a ghost in the studio now.
Joe: Was it ghosts in his studio?
Nick: Yeah. ’cause we, we summoned it.
Joe: I don’t remember that.
Nick: That was the last month. Joe, how did you already forget?
Georgia: you know, Halloween we, we did
Nick: that Ouija board, you know, we, you know.
Georgia: He, he’s time traveling right now.
Joe: I know. Don’t time travel. That’s not good. By the, we went the perspective to
Georgia: We may be lying to you.
Joe: I mean, yeah. Now go back and listen to the other episodes that happened last month and then
Katie: and
Georgia: then another movie that I’ve seen a couple, I don’t think I’ve seen the trailer, but I’ve just seen like poster ads for it. It’s called The Good, the Good Dog or the Good one.
And it’s a point of view of, it’s like a horror movie, but the
Nick: Oh yeah.
That
Georgia: from the dogs
Nick: a
Georgia: of it’s a, yeah. That seemed like I
Nick: The Good Boy, right?
Georgia: The good boy. That’s it. Yeah.
Katie: Does the dog died at [00:45:00] the end? It,
Nick: It had, it’s not
Katie: on yet.
Georgia: We hope not.
Nick: I’ve not seen it. No, but I want to,
Georgia: I think it comes out like in a week or two.
Right? It hasn’t come out yet,
Nick: later this year.
Georgia: Okay.
Nick: I think, but yeah,
that, that, that one, I cannot wait to see what, what other horror things were you talking about, Joe? What, what did you have?
Georgia: I
Joe: mean, nothing. I, well, we can move on.
Nick: No, I need to know Now you,
Joe: Oh, no, it’s all
Nick: you’re gonna skew my perception of
Joe: Well, that’s fine. You know, your perspective can be skewed. Sorry. No, you’re right. No, I had nothing, those polar geist, things like that. So,
Katie: love some Poltergeist.
Nick: I mean, I’m always down for a Poltergeist
Joe: classics. So
Katie: I mean, Nick is gonna call his trash. But while my husband was out at Jen Conn I just watched all of the Conjuring movies and that definitely, they were good. Yeah. Not all of them. Not all of them, but I still wanna watch all of them. Many. Are they
Georgia: many, how many were there?
Nick: Three
Katie: the Annabel’s?
Nick: [00:46:00] Bels Plus the Nun. There is two of those. And LA
Katie: Yeah. Talk about
Nick: so there’s eight movies in total. Nine, yeah. Plus the new one coming out
Georgia: and you binge watched them like one right after the
Katie: Uhhuh. Mm-hmm.
Georgia: See that right there messes with your
Katie: Yep. Perception
Georgia: when you binge watch something really intense.
Katie: And when I, yeah, when I say I could not sleep, I was up every single hour, like listening, like deep into my house. I’d have to get up, go down all three floors. I’m like, is there anything here?
Georgia: Well that guy, that guy died. The guy Oh
Nick: yeah, the
Georgia: the Annabelle doll died.
Katie: Yep.
Georgia: Yep. And he was like 40 something,
Katie: Yeah.
Nick: Yeah. Heart attack.
Georgia: Oh my gosh. That’s
Katie: He should have known better.
Georgia: That’s just, yeah.
Katie: Yeah. But that that just changed my whole, like my house felt safe until that point where I’m like, oh God, now haunted. And it is built in like the thirties, so. Who knows?
Georgia: Yeah. Probably don’t binge
Nick: say about them.
Katie: movies,
Georgia: poor movies. [00:47:00] Our ghost horror movies When you’re
Katie: it’s just me and my cats.
Nick: Just listen to horror podcast. Yeah.
Katie: So Nick has suggested so many horror podcasts to me, and I can’t because I will listen to them like at night when I’m trying to fall asleep.
Georgia: And then you do fall asleep and they’re
Katie: and it’s still going. Yeah.
Nick: That’s actually what I fall asleep to half the
Katie: I know.
Yeah. Or like when I was like home alone, because I’ll listen to ’em when I’m home alone mostly. ’cause Alex is like, ghost start real demons are real, blah, blah, blah.
Nick: Which is correct.
Katie: And yeah, I can’t, I can’t do it. I just I’ve listened to some of the ones you wanted me to no. Was it no sleep?
Oh yeah. Yeah. And I just
Nick: mm-hmm.
Katie: Creepy. Yeah. Creepy. Very creepy. Like I slept on my couch Creepy.
Nick: Because
Katie: I was like central.
Nick: so you can run out of the front door. Yeah. Or a serial killer can come in and That’s right.
Katie: Yeah. Actually, fun fact, none of my doors in my house lock, so
Nick: Katie,
say that on the air.
Joe: world.
Katie: Oh no. It, no, it, it’s an old house.
Yeah. Like the, the [00:48:00] front and the back
Joe: be in the show notes.
Katie: You need an antique key. And we don’t have the antique key. So key. Yeah, we need to
Nick: you need one?
Katie: Wow. Apparently. Yeah.
Nick: I can find one.
Katie: I can find one. Okay. And the
Nick: have one at my
Georgia: but will it be the
Joe: door is a skeleton key.
Katie: No, it’s all the doors in my house. Other within the front door.
Joe: Other than the front
Katie: Mm-hmm.
Joe: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Katie: So like bedroom, bathroom you can’t
Joe: it sounded like that. The
Katie: oh, no, no, no. The front door locked. Oh God. I wouldn’t live there. Are you kidding me?
Joe: like, what
Nick: what
Katie: I live in a city.
Joe: you said.
Nick: say your front door
Katie: sorry. Did I? Okay. Yeah. No, no,
Joe: We can go back and, and listen again, but yeah, it’s like
Katie: Back door’s
Joe: are you living in? like
Nick: I just locked the bedroom doors.
Joe: you know,
Nick: You know.
You can come into the front door, but don’t dare try to find the
door.
Joe: I’m guessing you’re the serial killer.
Katie: That’s it.
Joe: Like it’s how come you got your door’s always open? Come on in and find out.
Nick: on
Katie: in and find out. I mean, it’s okay. I will say I have an ax next to my bed. Not gonna lie, you know. There you go.
Joe: well there. It,
Katie: that’s [00:49:00] leave person
Nick: We’re gonna have to edit that out later, Joe.
Katie: Mm-hmm.
Joe: I sleep with one eye open and the Ax
Nick: I listen to enough horror podcasts and movies.
Katie: I’m ready. Come at me.
Joe: That’s right. Come on, Abby. I’m ready. I’ll get the door unlocked for you.
Katie: Come
Joe: Come on. That’s crazy. Yeah. See, that’s my perspective of you. It changed greatly. I was like,
Katie: mm-hmm. You sleep
Joe: the house, you scared of Nick’s creepy house
Katie: Yeah. I run out of there.
Joe: I sleep with the doors
Katie: the doors open.
Joe: Just wide open
Georgia: Wide.
Katie: My husband would, if he could, quite frankly.
Nick: Yeah. Joan,
that how you guys used to live back in the day? Just
Joe: never, I grew up in Philadelphia.
We ain’t never left a door unlocked. Yeah, no, that’s,
Katie: yeah, I live in the city. I don’t do that.
Joe: Not in Philly. And the doors, they lock
Georgia: my day.
Nick: day.
Katie: I have three locks. I, I promise I have three locks on my front door.
Joe: What about the back door? Also
Katie: Also? Three locks. And one of them is like a wrought iron screen
Joe: [00:50:00] Oh, wow. Someone those big, yeah.
Katie: Yeah. Those are, you’re not
Georgia: no one’s getting, no one’s getting in.
Katie: No, no.
Georgia: You
Joe: as well break a window. Yeah.
Georgia: Yeah.
Katie: And then that’d wake me up and then I’d, then I’d go.
Joe: But yeah. Cool. Anything else in this
Nick: best
Katie: perspective?
Nick: Katie, did you threw your notes?
Katie: Mm-hmm.
Joe: I know.
Katie: oh, I know, that’s what I’m checking out. Hold on.
Nick: Oh, okay.
Katie: So the last like bit was, have we read this? Yes. Oh yeah. Okay. See, this was my first time.
Nick: so we don’t have video,
Joe: have
Katie: oh,
Nick: can you go ahead and tell
Katie: Sorry. The Sirens are Titan.
Georgia: I don’t think I, I don’t think I’ve went. I’ve read it.
Katie: am really, I own
Nick: That’s like high school reading.
Georgia: No,
Joe: know if it’s high school, but yeah. I didn’t read it in high school. I read it on my own. Yes,
Katie: I would like to say the condition of this book is not mine. Is my spouse’s the low.
Joe: good condition. Whoa.
Georgia: We
Katie: see that? Yeah. We have a coffee. We mysterious stain in the bottom.
Georgia: would not be happy if you [00:51:00] returned this book to the public library.
Nick: Tell me about it. I’ve tried a few times.
Joe: What happened? Do you guys, they have to buy a new one,
Nick: You just have to pay a fine. I’ve done this at
Georgia: Well, you
Joe: you cane ’em or something?
Georgia: You
Joe: a
Georgia: could have to pay for pay for
Katie: pay for
Joe: the book.
Georgia: pay for a replacement. Yeah.
Katie: Yeah. Listen.
Joe: if he did that, like he did physical like. You know, public displays a
Georgia: Right,
Katie: Right.
Joe: You would, you would not have
Georgia: You’ll, you’ll
Joe: a public shaming.
Georgia: We do have public shaming
Joe: perspective would change.
Nick: no shame.
Joe: No shame.
Katie: that is true. That is true.
Nick: We have the one person that
Georgia: Anyway, let’s get back to the sirens
Joe: anyways,
Georgia: of Titan.
Katie: Yes. I only made a quarter of the way through. I want to, like Vonnegut get so bad. I, it’s not that I don’t like him, it just takes so much focus for me on the, I don’t know.
I was talking to Alex about it. I’m just like, why am I not understanding the perspective of this book? ’cause it like, it feel like it bounces too much for me. Maybe. I don’t know.
Georgia: I’m gonna, I’m gonna try,
Katie: I mean, I’m reading [00:52:00] romantic right now, so I think my, that’s
Joe: Cradle is I mean, V Cat’s, cradle Slaughterhouse Five, those were, I mean, you know, classic those were, yeah. Right,
Nick: Classics.
Georgia: But I get
Joe: I wonder what he had his rating at
Georgia: that are just really hard to
Nick: do you mean rating?
What?
So
Katie: yeah, I just really think I’m in my like, romantic era, like my Easy Ya romantic. Oh
Nick: Oh,
Katie: what? I work at a public library. Leave me alone.
Nick: What is it?
Katie: Anybody can read ya. It’s for everybody.
Nick: Right?
Katie: That wasn’t,
Nick: that wasn’t, that wasn’t the
Katie: what the face you gave me.
Nick: that wasn’t the,
Georgia: It was the romance part of it.
Nick: Yes.
Katie: Yes.
Georgia: Okay. Yes. That’s what you’re saying.
Katie: to be fair, I thought it was just a gothic academia book and then it got real s muddy real fast and I’m like, well, I’m in it now.
You
Georgia: just gonna go with
Nick: on the Train, right?
Joe: What?
Nick: I don’t
Katie: think
Nick: the book you recommended to that old lady?
Joe: Ohoh.
Oh. Oh, it was Joyce car os it was which book was that?
It
Georgia: The
Joe: Gothic,
Georgia: I love [00:53:00] YA though.
Katie: Thank you.
Georgia: You like ya too. Yeah. You read ya
Katie: I just, I really felt like you were judging me for that. No, you used to all the time. It
Georgia: a Total romance thing. Yeah.
Katie: Yeah.
Georgia: don’t read romance, Nick
Joe: No
Nick: romance. No. I read children’s books.
Katie: See, but often I’m reading law horror books and there’s romance in
Georgia: You read other
Nick: stuff. I do. I, I mean,
Georgia: but you know what, to be honest, it
Nick: takes a hell of a lot longer for me to get through any book.
Georgia: To be honest. I don’t, I don’t like romance books and I don’t know why
Katie: Straight Romance.
I do not. I can’t. It’s gotta have something else like a horror. I read a horror book, I can’t remember the title right now, but it also had like lesbian romance in it. I’m like, hell yeah. This is great.
Georgia: Right. I, yeah,
Katie: it has to have, if it’s a side bit
Georgia: right. I can’t go and
Nick: which is fine. I, I just don’t like having like fool on rom
Katie: No, me neither. Yeah.
Nick: If it’s a rom horror, huh?
Joe: You don’t like romcom?
Nick: That’s a romcom.
Katie: that’s different. Oh, [00:54:00] okay. Yeah. That’s different.
Joe: That different. All right.
Georgia: That’s Joe’s favorite.
Joe: I do go, I enjoy, I get
Nick: are great.
Georgia: It’s one I, I’m not a big romcom
Joe: I do
Georgia: and I have to watch ’em sometimes, and then I like them. Yeah, yeah. And then I’m surprised
Joe: I just wanna swing back. So I was looking it up, but Kurt, I was making sure right. Kurt Vonnegut did rate all of his books from a. You know, a plus 2D
Katie: in a order.
Joe: And so he, he actually gave the Sirens of Titan a in his own category. But here’s the,
Katie: Oh.
Georgia: what, what did he, what, what did he base that on
Joe: it was his own
Georgia: assessment on? And so did he
Nick: he rated his,
Joe: rated his own books
Georgia: he give himself a D?
Joe: He did. Yeah, he
Katie: He did.
Joe: he did. Yeah.
Nick: what book did he give
Katie: A B minus.
Joe: he gave himself plus and minuses.
Georgia: Oh, wow. What,
Joe: it was interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I
Georgia: Cat. I gotta say I haven’t even heard of the Happy Birthday. Wanda Jones Slapstick that got the D.
Joe: that’s probably why you haven’t heard of
Georgia: There’s a [00:55:00] plus is Cat’s Cradle. Cat’s Cradle
Joe: is prob is one of,
Georgia: Slaughterhouse five A plus. Welcome to the Monkey House, B minus. Happy
I have to read more.
Nick: Bon
Joe: yeah, I have a bit up there. I got on a big vate roll and I started reading through his books there
Katie: Okay. See, I should have, I lived in Bloomington and like they used to have a Vate
Joe: right. Yeah. He’s from, yeah. And he, he did his think he wrote Cat’s Cradle as this master’s thesis. I U Chicago, so, yeah.
Nick: that’s a good one.
Katie: Yeah.
Nick: He only
it Breakfast of, of Champions. A C. What?
Joe: Well, there it is Kurt Money. Yeah. No, he did.
Nick: I
Georgia: that he that he did that. That’s kind of cool.
Nick: I didn’t know people did that. I, when you said that, I was just like,
Joe: people, I mean, but it’s
Georgia: I don’t think a lot of people do that. No.
Nick: No.
Joe, how would you rank all yearbooks
Joe: A.
Georgia: plus
Joe: A, the exactly. Well, you still tell me if becomes someone else. My only novel, I got nothing to compare it to. So it isn’t a A plus. after I have a couple more [00:56:00] out there that, that, that grade could go,
Katie: That’s
Joe: way to go. So maybe I should put it at an A and that could, you know, I was gonna say the Joyce Car Road story on the train was the Accursed. And that’s because it’s a, it’s a gothic fiction. And I didn’t real, I mean, I didn’t, I didn’t look at the genre, but, you know, Gothic has a blend between horror and, and that romance that you get
Georgia: and can get pretty.
Joe: and it gets, it can get fairly raunchy
Katie: Pretty fast.
Joe: And
Katie: So
Joe: there was a older woman who rode our train and, she was older in her sixties.
I mean, this was something, so I was, she was probably 20 years older than me and she saw me read all of the time and she asked me what book was I reading? And I said, oh, I’m reading Joyce Scott Oates, one of my favorite novelists. And so she was like, great.
She was like, getting a knee replacement, surgery is gonna be out recovering. So she was gonna get some books to read and I was like, great. And so. [00:57:00] Some weeks go by and then I see her on a train. I go, Hey, how’d your procedure go? And I said, oh, great. And then she goes to tell me, oh, I read that book. And she was like, I’m no prude, but I really struggled with that.
And I was like, oh, yeah. I was like, you know what? I hadn’t gotten to that part yet. Or I would, I would’ve.
Katie: she was
Joe: she was like, oh, it’s okay. Then she never asked me for another book recommendation. So I guess that’s yeah. So,
Georgia: yeah. So,
Katie: But yeah,
Joe: so that’s my, that story there that Nick was referring to.
Mm-hmm.
My perspective’s.
Georgia: And I think that’s a great point. Like you kind of, this almost bookends you brought up how this topic is so good for writing stories and storytelling in novels, but also the reading books is so good.
It’s like one of the best ways to get other perspectives.
Katie: right. Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm.
Joe: Yeah. Yeah.
And off, I mean, we talked about that in lot episodes where stories offer safe spaces to [00:58:00] explore trauma, to explore future outcomes to
Georgia: Jonathan
Nick: Mayberry with the Thing
Joe: the Mayberry and the Thing, right?
Nick: the Black Panther.
Joe: Panther, yeah. He’s told that story. And the the thing,
Katie: marvels the thing. Mm-hmm. Fantastic
Joe: Florida thing. because ’cause we,
Katie: That’s, that was the
Nick: episode he was on.
Joe: the episode he was
Nick: what I
Katie: what I was, yes.
Georgia: Right. Right. And I think that is so important and that that is why you have the book. Bands that’s people are trying to, you know,
Joe: you wanna stop that perspective from
Georgia: but if you really wanna get lots of different perspectives, you need to read
Joe: you can understand other people’s worldviews and ones you agree with and disagree with. I think it’s important to go. The other thing is just be curious.
Katie: Mm-hmm. And
Joe: And yeah, kind of what we do in our episodes and, and shows is, you know, ask, ask questions critically.
Think about topics and what goes on. So that’s
Nick: doesn’t matter if your question’s stupid, someone’s gonna answer it.
Joe: no
Georgia: No. Yeah. No stupid
Joe: question.
Georgia: Right.
Nick: No, there are[00:59:00]
Georgia: some, some stupid
Nick: stupid questions. I ask
Georgia: I think there, I think there
Nick: I ask them all the time. Question. Yeah.
Katie: Yeah. Some
Georgia: Yeah. Some stupid answers.
Joe: especially if
Georgia: if you’re using AI
Joe: AI admit yourself. You’re a superhero. Yeah. Once again, ask. Yeah. I mean, right.
Nick: Ask an adult.
Joe: Yeah. They’d be, be if the experts aren’t writing you back to your great greatest idea ever, maybe it’s not so great. And I, I’m surprised and I will say that those experts should have wrote back and at least commented and said,
Georgia: and then said, maybe, maybe you need to, can
Katie: help him.
Georgia: Yeah. Maybe you need to take a break from the,
Joe: I mean, I know personally I get, I get really whack ideas that come and people really pull lot of effort. And sometimes you write back and be like,
Nick: but how, again, hold on. How, how long of a timeframe was this? Like maybe they just didn’t have time
Joe: three weeks. Okay. Three weeks.
Georgia: I mean, no, no. What he’s saying is the expert did they get it and then didn’t write [01:00:00] back, and it was just a few days that they didn’t
Joe: mean, I think he, he wrote a number of experts over this three week period,
Georgia: So there was a little bit
Joe: There should have been time, right?
Georgia: email or text
Joe: his was like emails. So he should have, I mean, you could easily write back no, I think
Nick: the amount of times I don’t answer emails.
Joe: Yeah. I mean, that’s said that is true.
Same.
Nick: I
part of my job. Everything.
Katie: Yeah.
Joe: Yeah.
Katie: But,
Joe: but it is, it was an, I thought it was fascinating how easily your perspective can be skewed.
Mm-hmm. Your perception of things, perception, that you now have discovered something great. And you can feel very empowered by that feeling. And then that really skews your perspective, is you wanna believe, then you wanna believe that you are awesome, you are great. And it’s, it’s a fine line between hyping someone up and then believe in the hype.
Katie: right?
Mm-hmm. I think that’s always, you know,
Georgia: There’s a great children’s book called, it Could have Been Worse. do you know that one? Mm-hmm. And it’s I think it’s a mouse, and he is going along and like [01:01:00] all these things that he perceives as being kind of negative happens.
But if you look at it from the bigger picture, he he almost gets eaten by some other animal, but he doesn’t, something
Nick: good happens and then
Georgia: He doesn’t even realize that he actually almost got eaten. You know what I mean? It was like, and so the name could have been worse. Yeah.
Joe: His perspective was, yeah.
Georgia: So
Joe: Yeah. Well, cool.
Nick: Yeah. I, I,
Katie thank you for being on this episode. Katie
Joe: got anything?
Nick: Yeah,
Katie: thank you for inviting me. I do, so I am the, I guess, the official archivist now for the DC punk archive. Please follow us on Instagram at, I think it’s DC Punk Archive.
Nick: We’ll have that in the show notes. Joe. Joe, will this actually make it to the show notes?
Cool.
Katie: Yes, it is DC Punk Archive. I was right.
That was,
Georgia: the best choice for that.
Katie: Trying to post some more like fun things from our collection. If you’re, for some odd reason, the DC area, we do [01:02:00] volunteer stuff. Come see us. Yeah.
Georgia: Very
Joe: cool. Yeah, that is very cool.
Katie: Yeah.
Joe: So yeah, I think that’s, that’s it.
Katie: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Nick: Yeah.
Georgia: You did, you, you had something else to say, Nick,
Joe: know, I don’t know. You look like
Georgia: like
Nick: waiting for you to
Georgia: are you listening to those voices on the headphones right
Joe: I know, right?
Katie: Oh my God,
Joe: happening. That’s,
Nick: I am.
Joe: is looking at me.
Nick: I actually have a little
Katie: have a little well
Joe: I think this is Joe. Maybe this is Joe. Is this
Georgia: Nick?
Nick: Nick?
Joe: maybe Nick and Georgia?
Nick: Was that Katie?
Joe: maybe not Katie. I don’t know.
Nick: I think we went,
Joe: who’s here
Nick: down some hole? Maybe.
Katie: Mm-hmm.
Joe: Depends on your perspective of a hole. It might be a, might be a tunnel or a tube.
Nick: Bye-bye. Bye bye.
Katie: bye. Stay.
Joe: Definitely stay safe, stay curious.
Georgia: Read a book. Read a book
Joe: book
Katie: questions,
Nick: Read them
Joe: everything.[01:03:00]
Nick: Love y’all. Bye.
Joe: Except rabbit hole research. We really do love y’all.