Guest Hayley Reese Chow
Substack, Apple, Spotify, YouTube, Amazon
[00:00:00]
Joe: Hey, welcome back to the Rabbit Hole of Research down here in the base-
ment studio for Season Three
coming at you. Yep.
Nick: I’m shocked.
They haven’t canceled us yet, Joe,
Joe: we
haven’t been canceled. We’re here.
No one’s raided the Basement Studio and dragged us out. Yeah, so
Geo: don’t
give em any
ideas.
Joe: Yeah, so you have me, Joe, of course.
We’ve got Georgia.
We’ve got
Nick: you. Got Nick.
Joe: Nick. And we actually have a special guest with us
Nick: Oh wait. Hello there.
Joe: So if you would like to introduce yourself really fast and
Hayley: Hi, I’m Haley. I’m an author of Science Fiction adventures.
And I’m also a full-time
engineer, so I’m super excited to be here and thanks for so
much for inviting me.
Joe: Yeah,
definitely. Thank you. We got an engineer on here
Nick: So do you Look at human bodies as a piece of engineering, like
Geo: Yeah.
you’re, you [00:01:00] just,
are.
Joe: know you went
right in. Did, I
Nick: I mean, I didn’t know that
Joe: List. No
Hayley: I’ve never had that thought, but I was sitting next to an engineer that was
talking one time about the flap in your throat and how
Joe: throat. That’s right. it was because it was
Hayley: not robust enough and
5that’s why he was Choking
Joe: and not that flaps the epiglottis,
Geo: Oh, thank you
Nick: I thought about that.
Is that what it’s called? That’s
Joe: what the little flap is called. Remember that
Nick: the little dangly bit? I thought that was a, no,
Joe: the dangly bit. That’s called the Uvula, but There’s a flap that covers up your
windpipe when you swallow.
Oh. So that you don’t choke to death all the time. Yeah. The epiglottis.
Hayley: down the wrong pipe. So it had gone down the wrong pipe and he was
criticizing the
Joe: Yes.
Nick: I constantly do that. It
Joe: is. So I, we didn’t even, you jumped right
Nick: in. I’m
so sorry. I didn’t hear. I didn’t,
Joe: it.
But
this episode
we’re gonna be talking about the physics and biology of extreme performance.
So that’s it. And Hailey didn’t mention, she’s also an ultra marathoner,
right? Is that true? Yes. Yep. Yep.
Hayley: So in, in my twenties
I did ultra
6marathons and adventure [00:02:00] races and actually I still have I, I have two sis-
ters. One is a professional triathlete, and then I have another one who still does ad-
venture races
Across the globe in Fiji and Africa and South America. So
Yeah. we have Kind of an
a athlete family.
Joe: Yeah. Awesome. And you were in the Air Force, is that, did I do the
Hayley: Yes, I’m still a reservist
and I was active duty for a few years.
So,
and I mean, while we’re putting it out there, I guess I
was Also
A
fencer in college actually. So I got ultramarathon after I got out of college.
Nick: Oh Damn. There it is. Were you trying to go for like the Amazing Race?
Hayley: No, it, yeah I.
just, I had a lot of time on my hands after I got outta college and I didn’t have to
like do fencing or homework. and I really, didn’t know what to do with myself, so I
Nick: wait like fencing as in swords?
Damn goods.
Joe: are you talking about?
Nick: I
wanted to make sure
Geo: Yeah, like
Nick: she’s got a nice
7Watch this.
Joe: You What? Talking about,
Hayley: A common question
Geo: she
Nick: could be out there putting fences together and be like, yeah.
Geo: Oh,
Joe: a, fencer.
Oh, I
see.
[00:03:00] Like,
Nick: Yeah. Like, I
don’t know.
Joe: Stop it.
Hayley: you would have.
Nick: This
is the energy I’m bringing.
Hayley: I have fielded so many phone calls to the
Louisville Fencing center.
that say we do not sell fences. So many phone calls.
Joe: right. Well, as you guys know, I have I have my little opening,
Geo: have a little intro.
Joe: I have a list too to get us started. I have a few things here, but I’ll just do that.
Get us. I
Geo: I think
8Nick: before I derail it anymore Yeah.
already got
Geo: started. Right?
Joe: trying to hawk goods or something.
Nick: I actually I am trying to swindle people with things. Yes. .
Joe: So the human body is an experiment in balance, a lattice of muscle and
bone, electricity and chemistry, rhythm and rapture. Every stride, every breath, every
heartbeat is a predictable calculation between energy and entropy.
And yet no equation fully captures the human will. Physics and biology tells us
what is possible. Endurance tells us what we refuse to accept as impossible. [00:04:00]
What is the biology and physics of pushing past a red line? The second wind beyond
the pain and the signals from the brain that whisper stop. What happens when muscle
meets meaning and the human condition becomes a question mark?
Is there a limit?
Nick: I
feel like I’ve hit the limit
with drinking before.
where it’s
Like I know it’s no ultra marathon, but you know,
Joe: an ultra marathon. It’s the opposite
Geo: What do you mean?
Nick: You know, you drink hard that you just black out. You know that it’s, pushing
your body to the limit of uh,
Geo: how much you can drink?
Nick: Oh, yeah.
Yeah. before
9Geo: I don’t think
Joe: oh no, that doesn’t
Nick: no, no. I,
Geo: about.
Joe: endurance.
Nick: thought that was the exact same
analogy. That’s a different kind Like athletes train with their
Geo: bodies.
Nick: train with my liver?
Joe: know. Your liver. That is
Nick: not your
Joe: liver.
That’s killing your liver. yeah.
Nick: Gotta kill it to make it stronger, right?
Joe: Yeah. Yeah. That it doesn’t kill you, it makes you stronger. Yeah. Maybe a
good thing for you to, liver is the
only organ I can regenerate. [00:05:00]
Nick: See,
Joe: What were you saying, Georgia?
Geo: Oh, I thought that was very poetic.
Yes.
Joe: I
Nick: or
him
Hayley: the same thing. That was awesome. It
was pretty sweet.
10Nick: keep
people
Joe: a little hype. And I do have, some biological ideas that I think makes en-
durance, and maybe we’ll add a more physical, from a engineering perspective Nick
kind
of
led
into
Nick: that
Joe: earlier.
So
one right in.
But an endurance is sustained, maximum output, maintaining power, speed, effort
over long durations without catastrophic failure of key systems.
And so I have six areas. We have anaerobic metabolism, energy generation with
oxygen, cardiovascular delivery, heart vessels, blood flow, muscle efficiency, fiber type
mitochondria, fuel utilization, thermal regulation, heat balance, neural reregulation,
the brain’s control of effort and kind of our control center and then repair and stress
signaling.
The hormonal and cellular feedback loops [00:06:00] that, during training and
things like that prevent us from over training or should. So these are six areas I had
from a biological perspective that you can think of conceptually controls endurance,
and you have to train your body, your mind for all these
Hayley: yeah, endurance is just a, it’s a really interesting thing. So I, got into ultra
marathoning because I always thought I
cannot go very fast, but I can.
11keep going. And
it, It was
And it’s interesting because it’s very much
A mindset
in so many ways about what the human body is capable of and what essentially
that we
were
originally designed to do, right.
We’re so far removed from it
in this day and age, but if you can kind of tap into
it and have that
confidence that you know that your body can do that,
especially because, you know,
when we
talk about.
Our kind of everyday performance, right? And then you, but
then there
is the very high adrenaline performance.
right, Which is completely different. Like you may think that you are done or
tapped out, but then if your life is in danger and you have [00:07:00] that adrenaline
response then you can tap into a whole new range of essentially a performance that
you may not even consciously be aware of. And I think even knowing that exists is a
huge part of mindset for endurance runners. And actually, it was interesting. when I
got into, when I started Dec decide, deciding how I wanted to see my experience with
Ultra Marathon was trying to see how far I could go. Really, I was trying to find my limit
as a person. And I read this article, which was kind of my gateway drug into. ultra
12marathoning, which said that if you could run a certain amount of disc, like a certain
mileage that you could
Go twice as far not necessarily running. So like if you had run a marathon, then
you are already ready to go 50 mile to do a 50 miler. Like you might not be able to run
the whole time. but you can go And then, so I essentially, I did a 50 miler and then I
was like, well, if I could go, if I ran the whole 50 miles right, then I could go a hundred.
miles. [00:08:00] And so it’s that. It is really interesting, I think, how the brain and the
human body are interacting sometimes,
Even and a c part of it, too is pain management, right? Because If you’re running
for a certain amount of time, a time, there’s going to be, pain. and so you have to be
able to mentally essentially ignore the pain, so.
Geo: right.
Joe: No, for sure. No, I think that’s, really interesting and you raised a couple
points. I was thinking of flow state and I think we as creatives, you think of flow state,
you get into this mode where you are in writing and your flow and you’re, or you’re
creating, but also and performing, , the flow state where you get into that and you
were , I think, alluding to that where you get into this kind of mental state where you’re
now in this equilibrium between kind of the pleasure runner’s pleasure, they call it the
second win where you’re now, you’ve trained and so now you’re maximally using your
oxygen efficiency , depleting the lactate, lactic acid in your muscles, [00:09:00] re-
freshing that and you’re cruising along.
Before you have to hit this, next gear of a, this kind of very mental zen kind of
state. And then I think you go and I have the Berserker state where now you go into
this next phase where you are pushing yourself, you said that flight or you’re like, oh, I
got, can I make that last 20 miles?
13Or whatever. Or we think of movies, you know, John Wick, when he goes in from
flow state, like you almost see it where he is in some flow state, and then he goes into
a berserker mode where he is, it’s a, it’s physically taxing mentally and physically. And
he goes and it’s just, you shut everything off.
The whole world dissolves around you.
Nick: I think that movie actually does a really good job at showing that berserker
State. Like it makes you focus in on exactly what he’s seeing without being like that
POV view.
Joe: Yeah.
Geo: that’s a good point. I,
I read your blog and I was well, I was reading about when you did your marathon
and you hurt your ankle like very early on, [00:10:00] and I’m just like I was so im-
pressed that you were able to, like you said, mentally push past that. I can’t even imag-
ine. I’ve I have broken my ankle before. and I just can’t imagine. I mean, I can’t imagine
it just in the best possible scenario being able to do it.
Nick: I mean, I trip just walking. I don’t know.
I
don’t understand how you, do it.
Joe: you don’t, you are not, are you a you’re not a big sports guy.
Nick: What are sports?
Joe: Yeah. And Georgia,
I know you haven’t, you’re not, but when you play, like, so I’ve played like basket-
ball ultimate Frisbee, and you go and you do get, you have these injuries and things
and the, and I’ll say the longest run I’ve ever done was a 10 miler, and that was by ac-
cident.
14Because it was a 10 k 10 miler, and I just got the signage wrong and I just went
along. And that’s that whole point that if you can
do, and it’s even
in
training
because like when you train for a marathon, you don’t actually run a marathon.
You actually run 70% of it, , and then you know you can do the rest.
And I think when I ran, I’m just going [00:11:00] along and then, people, and I
read the sign, I’m like, 10 miler. And I’m like, what? Hold on. I’m in the wrong, I’m
Nick: running the wrong
Joe: route.
But, once I was in it, I was like, I can do this. Like, you know, I’ve
Nick: looks like I’m, just going, yeah,
Joe: right. And I finished and I had a good time.
Geo: But I can’t imagine rolling your ankle and then still running.
Geo: How Did you overcome that?
Hayley: So for
me
it was definitely the feeling of necessity because in some ways I was
like 22 or 23 when it happened and when I was doing
the. a hundred Miler
And so at that time
For that a hundred, a
hundred
mile ultramarathon Ultra marathon. So it’s essentially five 20 mile loops and you
can bring in a safety runner for mile 60 through a hundred.
15So I had also flown in my sister and my mom, who were gonna do essentially the
last two 20 mile laps with me. And so I was thinking, I was like, well, I’m never gonna
get them to
come out. Like I’m never gonna be able to fly them out here again. Like I spent all
this money to fly out here and fly my parents out here and I don’t know if I’m ever
gonna do
this again.
And I’m already here. So
even if I have to walk, there was a lot, this was my [00:12:00] exact like thought
process ’cause you know, you have a lot of time to think in a hundred mile
Nick: I don’t understand how you do
that alone, just being stuck with your own thoughts.
It’s like, oof.
Hayley: There’s a lot of thinking. Yeah. So
I, was basically, you know, I’m just gonna try my best. I’m going to, ’cause I’m try-
ing to find my limit. I wanna see, I’m just going to go until I can’t Anymore. And I’m
gonna see if I can, just because I knew that even if I walked right, a 20 minute, mile
pace, I, you know, I would finish in the 24 hour In the 24 hour, or actually 30 it’s a 30
hour in the
Geo: Oh my gosh.
Hayley: So I felt that need of necessity. And actually it’s a, it’s interesting. I have a
friend who’s an army ranger who talks about who, and we would talk
about how difficult the Army ranger test is to
pass. You know, it’s also very
physical and there’s this mindset that you get in that is this,
16this is terrible. And it is just this acceptance that this is terrible. But I never felt like I
couldn’t do it. And I would just knew that I could keep persevering until I couldn’t.
And it was interesting. It’s interesting you talk about being alone with your thoughts.
Like one of my mindsets, and I think someone else had said this [00:13:00] too, is real-
ly just keeping yourself happy. Like knowing how to keep Yourself upbeat and positive
is a huge part ’cause as soon as you accept that you can. Quit, you will. So you really
have to kind of almost trick yourself into saying, I cannot, it’s, and it’s very much the
same, It’s like also like, I think one of the toughest ultra marathons is actually in New
York and why? It’s
very tough. It’s a hundred miles
and it’s around one
block and they run. the same block
Joe: My
Geo: gosh.
Hayley: thousands of
Geo: Oh my
Hayley: difficult because it’s so easy to just walk away and
quit
Geo: Oh my gosh.
Hayley: are doing an out and
back, Right? If You were to run. 50 miles out, well Once you run, the 50 miles out,
you have to run,
Joe: right? Yep. Yeah.
Yeah. I think of the scene in
GATTACA
GATTACA
17where, you have the brother one is genetically enhanced and he’s put on the
pedestal perfection. Versus the other brother who was natural born. I don’t know why
it wasn’t his parents didn’t spring the money for him, but maybe I missed that part
when I got cut out the movie. [00:14:00] But but yeah, it was interesting because then
you had, he was trying to achieve this goal of going outer space,
and so he was struggling against the system of genetic perfection in that you
could force yourself. And I remember they would swim and his challenged, his brother
and his brother was like, I can beat you. And so they went swimming. And his brother,
who was his perfection, was built to do this and they swim out and they go and go.
And then the brother fails. A genetically a perfect brother runs out and turns around
and starts going back, and then they get back, and then it’s like, well, where were you
doing? And he goes, I didn’t expect to come back.
I was just gonna keep swimming until. We either swam and died out in the middle
of the ocean, or you turned around and that was it. And that’s that whole thing. A
minute, you can quit. Like you have nothing to gain or lose. You go, well, I’m just
gonna head back. I don’t know what I’m doing here.
I don’t wanna die. That’s same idea of you just running around the block, a hun-
dred times and it’s like, you said Hayley why am I doing this?
Hayley: Yeah,
it’s [00:15:00] actually, it’s
interesting
so, and Malcolm Gladwell has this book called Underdogs, and he talks about
what.
I, you know,
Underdogs can win, right? And in odds where it seems like they
can’t. And it’s like, even when it comes
18to
like things, like war, right? Like when a better, equipped, you know, more powerful
better funded military will lose against a smaller one. And it definitely, a part of it is
that
mindset of
having. Nothing. to
lose
of just of, you know, they don’t,
They have something to prove, and it’s a do or die situation.
And underdogs are able to to to harness that. I think it’s really
Geo: I think it
like just
the psychology of doing an ultra marathon or even a marathon, I think that proba-
bly just people with certain
mindsets
can do it in the first place. Do you know what I mean?
Joe: Yeah.
Well, I mean
there’s probably components, physical components that people that do it, they,
they have something, , the lung capacity, they’re what is called VO two max. How
they’re much oxygen in your lungs. So [00:16:00] there’s physical things that probably
start to separate, but then what separates those people from the people that actually
finish?
And I think that’s the intangible. This will, this mental kind of drive that I’m gonna,
I’m gonna do this, right? What anybody that succeeds, , they push through and they
have this kind of thing in ’em. And so even if all things are equal, you still need that
19drive. And I think that is important and forgotten in some of these things when you
see people do that.
So, because I know there was a documentary or something where you watched
about an ultra marathon through the Rockies in like Colorado
Hayley: is it the Trans Rockies run?
Joe: I think that was it. And they were showing people in the little tents
Hayley: I’ve done that one.
Joe: did you? Yeah. And they had
the blister, like
the one person
they had their feet were like just all blistered up and
bloody
and they were just running and it was like, I keep going, I gotta go.
You know? It was like this thing, like you said that, and you can almost see it where
it was like I can’t quit. Even though he had a good valid reason. Like your feet. Or
shredded, you should probably [00:17:00] stop. And it was like, now this banty is up
and we’ll take care of it at the finish line. And it was like painful to watch, but it was
also inspiring a bit to, to see that and have them push through.
And so, yeah, I think that mental capacity, that’s a big component. The will to do it,
the drive to do it.
Hayley: And there’s also a knowledge, component too, because I feel like there’s
also You know, when you get hurt, when you get hurt like that, I think you are doing
the mental calculation of.
What is the
worst that.
could happen?
20You know what I mean?
Like
it, you know, Is this going to get any, wor like, is this going to Permanently injure
me and not, , 99 times out of a hundred, the answer is no. That it’s a, it is a temporary?
it’s a temporary pain that will ,
go away. And it’s interesting ’cause you
especially see it in children, right? When
children are hurt
and a
lot of times
when they’re crying, it’s not necessarily because of the pain, but it’s the fear that
The pain will never go away.
So once.
Joe: Yeah.
Nick: I still get that. I’m like, this is my life now. Great job. Wake up from [00:18:00]
sleeping weird. And You’re like, oh, this crank. This is just my life. This is where this is
the new are you’re
Joe: talking about you or your 4-year-old?
Nick: Me now? No, this is straight up. Me
Joe: a little.
Geo: I do think
there’s certain times where you just go, is this gonna be permanent? Like certain.
Nick: So have you, is the idea of like the invisible wall, an actual thing?
Hayley: I have not encountered that. I personally have not encountered the wall
sensation in any of.
21Joe: Know for those listening that might not be familiar, Nick, you wanna or Allie
to explain the invisible wall? Yep. To our,
Hayley: So the wall, as I understand it, is that in, in any sport, and specifically
actually in
running, is that you get to a point where you feel like you cannot go any farther.
And but if you break through the wall, then a lot of people think that is when the
runner’s high actually kicks in is once the wall.
Is broken.
And Nick, I don’t know if your understanding,
of the wall is [00:19:00] different.
Nick: My understanding of it is through the movie that Simon Peg did in 2007,
which was called Run Fat Boy Run, where they actually had a wall show up in front of
him in his like head and he broke through the wall as like the big conclusion of the
movie.
It’s like, oh wow. He made it through and actually finished the race. ’cause he was
someone that. Didn’t finish anything he ever started and that’s pretty much what I
thought it was.
Hayley: And you know, what it could be is it could be the the si like a kind of a
less, even less literal of the expectations of
what you think your body can do. you, it could be D, that could also be the wall,
right, is that you think that you can only perform up to what your mind thinks that your
body can perform. And that is the wall. And you have to essentially break yourself out
of that. You have to trick yourself once again into thinking that your body can do more
than you’ve ever thought that it could. And I could see that being the wall. as Well, un-
fortunately, I think I was born with a lot [00:20:00] of hubris, so I am much more likely
to take on task.
22Joe: Yeah. I mean, that’s like the runner’s high. you have this mix of hormones,
your endorphins, the, endocannabinoids kicking in as you go and hitting your blood-
stream. So once again, I think that’s part is flow state.
And so you have this kind of your brain chemistry and you’re getting this pleasure
sensation from that. Some of this is pain suppression, calm euphoria, so all these kind
of feelings that you have, and like you said, make yourself happy. And so where you
might not feel this wall approaching is because you’ve set yourself up to actually have
those thoughts to go, oh, let me get in the good space.
Let me find my good space. Let me be mentally sound. I’ve trained, I know my
body, I know I can do it. And then you do it. I think if you go in doubting yourself, I
think that’s when you might hit walls or if you’re, I. Writing for effect a movie or a story,
then it might even come in more because that, that adds dramatic quality to it.
Nick: [00:21:00] Well I think he did go in doubting himself. Because like through-
out
the events of the film yeah it all led up to
Geo: sometimes
there’s
just like a switch and like you just get to that point where you Oh, I can. do this.
Like you Might not always.
Right. You might not
go into it even feeling like
you can. But maybe at some point then that just,
Joe: yeah.
Geo: But also I think, as far as the human body , isn’t it also about age? I just feel
like especially at my age there
Nick: you kinda talk about, but you know
23Geo: know what I mean, like the body is there only a certain
window where your body’s
like.
In the right sh Shape,
Joe: I think
there’s, for training and recovery, being younger, that is, that’s an advantage be-
cause your body metabolically still on a growth curve if, let’s say that. And I think if we
think about that as you age, your body just heals. It takes longer to heal naturally.
So if you twist your [00:22:00] ankle when you’re 20, you could be back out run-
ning the next day, just a sprain. Whereas if you’re in your thirties, eh, you might, not go
as hard the next day you hit your 49 and fifties, you know, I just hit 50 this year.
Geo: I’m just thinking of everything like lung capacity,
Joe: So, but lung
Geo: like
Joe: some of those things.
Geo: the stress, on your, you know what I mean?
Joe: So flexibility
in your cartilage, your tendons, all that as you age will stiffen up. But if you were
training, you know, you
Geo: I’m sure there.
are people that do it.
Nick: It’s not like you’re gonna go out tomorrow. and be like, I’m gonna go
Joe: an ultra
marathon tomorrow.
Geo: But, I feel
Nick: I feel like
24I,
Geo: that is kind of a limiting factor maybe.
Hayley: So the oldest person to complete the bad
water, 135
ultra.
Marathon was 80 years
old.
Geo: Wow.
Joe: I
Nick: I don’t know why I was hoping you were gonna say, like a hundred and
something. I was like
Hayley: Well, for a marathon maybe, but this is for the Ultra
Joe: Ultra
Hayley: 135 [00:23:00] miles.
Through the desert.
Joe: Oof.
Yeah. And you might gain advantages mentally. And I think Hailey, you mentioned
this knowledge of self knowledge of. What you’re doing as you get older you, what
you lack in physical capacity, you gain somewhat in, mental capacity and the knowl-
edge that you’ve seen a lot.
You’ve done a lot, you’ve pressed through a lot. And you can press through this
here. And I was gonna say the other thing, you might have an innate natural advan-
tage of being a woman both LA and Georgia. It’s a lot of research now when you talk
about physical activity that usually men are thought to be dominant, , just longer, larg-
er lungs.
25Oxygen capacity, muscle strength, just built to be stronger, quicker, faster, , equal-
ly trained, athletic man, woman, the man will generally outcompete the woman.
But
more recent research is showing that in short, quick burst [00:24:00] activities,
man has the advantage, but women start to gain the advantage when it goes to en-
durance sports.
So a lot of research is coming out, is that as you stretch out past the marathon lim-
its to ultra marathons, women now are competing equal. And if not, superseding men
ability, equally trained, equally competing. And so it’s really fascinating that kind of
that the long game, favors, the, women and their biological makeup to persevere and
to push through.
And I just thought that was, am I researching this topic? I thought that was really
fascinating to see that kind of research come up. So,
Hayley: and it’s interesting too, ’cause I feel like part of that might also have,
to do with the pain. right,
And it’s interesting. ’cause my
Joe: Mm-hmm.
Hayley: does these these multi-day
Adventure
Races where They’ll be going for like, she did the
bear grill’s eco Fiji race, which was like actually wrote it down. it was like 11 days,
and it’s 417 miles.
Nick: Oh
damn.
Hayley: Yeah, It’s wild because they also
they’ll sleep
26and I don’t know [00:25:00] if this was for
that particular race, but I know that they do in other races. ’cause
They have to first of all, navigate often through the wilderness, so not, so
they’re choosing the path and then they’ll also sleep
in like
crazy
short bursts, like
20 minutes
at a time. And I mean, yes, it, is wild how little they sleep. And then once again,
dealing with the pain. And I think there are studies, about, women
and I feel like I’ve seen, I have to fact check me, but I feel like I’ve seen studies on
women. and pain. tolerance. So I think that might play a role as
Joe: yeah, no, I think I mean you’re probably right
Nick: Honestly,
I feel like this would be the best thing for if you’re in a horror movie.
Like the endurance you’re surviving
right?
Geo: right?
Yeah.
The ultimate Final
Girl,
Joe: girl,
right?
Nick: You’ve succeeded. We found our final girl for
the season. It also
Geo: reminds me, it reminds
27me of the extreme of us.
Joe: Well, that’s no
Nick: you’re just pushing
this one in. Come on.
Geo: No, but it’s extreme. You know, I
Joe: I had on, I was just looking [00:26:00] up my notes on this topic.
One is , fat metabolism that women they have estrogen, upregulates enzymes for
ma fat metabolism. So that might improve mitochondrial efficiency during these long
endurances fatigue resistance.
Women experience less muscle damage and faster recovery under repeated
strain.
So that was one of the things thermal regulatory advantages. Women can regulate
their kind of heat management better than men.
And then hormonal modulation, so this kind of, I just mentioned the estro estro-
gen pro estrogen help with mitochondrial biogenesis antioxidant capacity, so you get
better cellular endurance through this kind of process of running these really long dis-
tances.
So, yeah, so really fascinating,
Hayley: About time we won
Joe: That’s right.
Nick: Hell yeah.
Joe: It’s, yeah. People start throwing research on women find out
Nick: offering them
Joe: Amazing. So That’s right.
Nick: And a meal
with and
28Joe: a suit and a you’ll get superpowers. [00:27:00]
No,
Geo: I do think of that show that, I
think
Stanley Lee did and it was he found
Nick: people
Geo: that were able to do like,
Nick: Yeah.
Geo: Like real life superhero,
like the people had been able to do,
Joe: oh, thing about the guy
and I could like punch through melons or something with the finger.
Geo: I
don’t,
Joe: the melon puncher, I don’t know.
It was so weird. Yeah.
Nick: Was it Jet Lee? ’cause I feel like that was, him.
Joe: it
Geo: It was so, and it was supposed to be
like people that you hadn’t heard of, like, you know what I mean? Not necessarily
famous people that were able to do these.
Nick: I think I’ve heard the show or heard of the show,
Joe: so maybe, you know, you Georgia, you had a point about maybe you’re not
ready to go do an ultra marathon, but maybe this is where the engineering can come
in and bio-engineering to enhance or have enhancements that could go on
Geo: Are you talking bionics
29or?
Sure.
Joe: Sure. Let’s talk bionics. Yeah.
Just cut
right
to it.
the
Geo: bionic [00:28:00] woman, Yeah.
Joe: like the bionic woman.
Geo: Yeah.
Joe: No, I
Hayley: you know, it is interesting
’cause like we talk about why humans continue to, get faster, right? Like why we
continue To break records
because, you know, shouldn’t at
some point we be optimizing the potential of the human body. Is it the shoes,
right, Is it like these braces, is it the material
of
the track that we’re running on?
Or is it our nutrition or is it, the fact that are we really just as, , humanity getting
stronger? So that is, it is a interesting thing
as well,
Nick: yeah, that is actually really interesting. Like
that is,
you would think that older generations of humans would be faster due to, , being
closer to the. Pri,
30Geo: right?
Like having to do a lot of that physical
Nick: Like having that danger of Right.
Having to run like,
Geo: hide, right.
Joe: Yeah. But we’re also designed, if you’re talking about when we were. More
prey than predator. [00:29:00] Endurance was our game. Like we’re designed for en-
durance.
So like a cheetah only can go fast for a very short distance. Like you can outrun a
horse over, a 5K or a marathon. You would, the horse will give up at some point in time
and it’s
Geo: because They’re not
Joe: you just keep going.
Right?
Geo: they’re like,
Joe: don’t think about that. So really all you gotta do is outcompete for x amount
of time and then you’ll win.
And that, that also then what makes us like really good predators, because then
we have this ability to stalk the hunt to go around. So now if you combine that ability
with weaponry and strategy, that gives you a very tactical advantage over things that,
you know, a, they’re gonna run out of energy. So all we gotta do is to.
Wear ’em down. We’re hunting a herd of, mastodons and, we know then we could
strategically wear them down stress ’em out, and then we can overpower ’em. That’s
our designs, our design isn’t actually sprinting. It’s the opposite
Geo: but I think that’s
31still a really great point because the way [00:30:00] our lifestyle is now is very sedi-
tary and a very, like,
Nick: we’re not in the same mindset of
fear.
Joe: I don’t wanna be like I was gonna say Hailey, when you were saying like, how,
why are people getting fast here? And I was just gonna throw in that there is prizes
and money and all sorts of accolades that come your way if you train yourself to be a
physical specimen and push yourself to that limit.
So if you have the. Physical makeup, so you have the genetic makeup to actually
run fast, and then you give yourself that extra advantage of training and working on
that then, and taking advantage of modern materials, outfits. You look at what people
are wearing now, when they run, it’s, , they’re pretty naked.
It is got like a little thin, I don’t watch the Olympics. I’m like, whoa, we need to blur
out some stuff on this. Like, you know
Nick: oh, I was just thinking of
Hal from Malcolm in the middle with his speed walking.
Joe: Yes.
Geo: Yeah, So,
Joe: but I think there’s been comparisons with like Hussein Bolt and Carl Lewis
and, some of [00:31:00] the greatest sprinters that we’ve had.
And you look at their stride length and things like that, and they’re really close. So
you go, you know, maybe Hussein Bolt, you do it. Maybe he’s got like a little bit of
stride length.
But if you do these comparisons through time, you do see these sprinters, they all
are from historical sprinters are, close, like they, if you give ’em some of these advan-
32tages and training, diet, lifelong kind of effort, like you’re gonna, this is what you’re
gonna do
Geo: could get in We could get into nature versus nurture
too. You could,
Joe: yes. That is,
Geo: you know. there’s probably some just innate abilities. sure. No, and then
Joe: that point,
Geo: And then at what
point do you, what things
in your environment was able to
Right.
You know?
Joe: You know? Yeah. No.
Hayley: And it’s wild these days too, ’cause kids specialize in sports so early. They
are like, they are going after these goals like the six year olds and the 8-year-old run-
ners of today that are breaking records. Starting that young. And then I feel like also in
[00:32:00] some ways we almost have like. This I don’t know, I guess ath this athlete
Social, structure, right? Because we have athletes that like go to college and, they
do sports there, and often they meet other athletes or, like two
basketball
players, right? Someone
from the WNBA and someone from the NBA. And then they have, they’re kids and
who are even taller and have the benefit of both of those genetic those.
lines. And I do feel like
in some ways
we
33are creating this environment where we are, you know, I guess incentivizing
This fascination. Maybe just this honing
Of
human ability and, in the extremes, right?
Joe: yeah.
And that’s what sells, right? I mean, you’re gonna go and look at it, then you’re
gonna pay good money to watch sports. Then you wanna watch the best of the best
compete. Not
Nick: I have to disagree. I want the worst of the worst.
Joe: there’s, want to see
there’s
Nick: the space jam in the first part.
Joe: Yeah, I think there’s probably
some
something there. you gonna
go to [00:33:00] the rec league and you’ll get your
fill of that for free. You don’t even have to, and I know we’re talking running, but
swimming distance, swimming for, near these long distances.
Looping back to the women versus men. Women also start to outcompete men as
a distance extends in any endurance sport. So, really kind of fascinating, but yeah.
But genetics you mentioned you get, you know, two W-N-B-A-N-B-A player and
they meet, they can have a very short kid with no athletic ability.
Right. Genetics doesn’t quite work out the way we, like, we
Geo: cruel, Mister.
Joe: we’re not engineering yet. We’re not GATTACA level, crisper you know, gene
Nick: you, wait, hold on. We, she does engineering.
34Let’s,
Hayley: extinct animals. Jurassic Park is happening in
Texas
Joe: Well, the thing is
they’re not,
Nick: I can’t wait. I’m going
little bit.
Joe: they’ve not actually brought back an extinct animal. They brought back
things that were close to the extinct animal because they had to like do a little bit of
trickery there to get it [00:34:00] going. So it is, it’s interesting.
Nick: Weren’t they bringing back the dojo bird?
Joe: The dodo bird. They’re trying, I think, but yeah, there’s no,
Geo: that hand waving, ma’am?
Joe: I mean,
Geo: it’s
Joe: so a
it’s
Nick: not ‘
cause it’s happening.
Well,
Joe: like the DNA isn’t all intact, so they gotta like, they kind of, they’re finding
something that’s closely related and then they’re kind of, you know, kind of smudging
the
Hayley: Wait a minute, wait a minute. in Jurassic Park they used, the frog DNA to
fill
in the gap.
35Joe: I,
I
just wanna
say
that is, that was a mistake in that movie because at the beginning of the movie,
now we’re off topic
Nick: Wait. You’re saying they made, mistakes in Jurassic Park.
What? a whole Jurassic
Joe: I’m this. But one in particular was weird because even at the beginning of
film, it’s like, oh, birds evolved from dinosaurs. Great. So, why in the heck are
you
Geo: using
Nick: frog DNA,
Joe: the, to
reconstruct
Geo: they use birds? They
Joe: Spurd?
DNA? I don’t get it.
So that could
have saved them some trouble, but it would, the plot wouldn’t have worked
[00:35:00] probably as Well, having
Geo: they seem to do
Joe: female male, uh, yeah. Of messing things up. Like,
Geo: well, they did a good job of bringing back some
dinosaurs.
Joe: No. All right. That’s a different topic.
36Nick: I have so many things.
to say about Jurassic
Park. Okay, so,
Geo: so,
what kind of
Hayley: the dire wolf. I think
Joe: Yeah, it was a dire wolf.
Hayley: up. The dire wolf. is
Joe: Yeah, that’s right.
Hayley: animal to have been successfully
Joe: Yeah. Yeah. But if you read the details on that, it’s a little, there’s some fudg-
ing in there. Yeah. It’s interesting.
Geo: wa I
was gonna ask what kind of engineering.
do you
Nick: actually the one working on the dire wolves. That’s right. Joe is calling her
out for no reason. I am so sorry about
this. This wasn’t supposed to be a Gotcha. piece.
Joe: is how we
get
Geo: started.
Joe: down.
Hayley: I’m a mechanical engineer, so
I work for the Air Force.
So I test testing
weapons
37Geo: Okay.
Joe: Nice. Are you working on anything fun or are you
Nick: that’s classified?
Joe: no. You know,
Hayley: When I was
younger, when
[00:36:00] I,
was younger, I we tested like, go eights and, missiles was our thing. So it was cool
to,
To do the 30
mil bullets and the
40 mil bullets. So
That was always fun And then when I got.
Then I also tested fuses, which is cool because you put the fuses in like this big,
like Metal.
cylinder and you shoot it out of a canon.
So that’s all.
Joe: So you were like, you’ll be the one attaching the gun to the War Machine, the
Iron Man suit.
Nick: So how far off are we from the Iron Man suit. It should be the
better question.
Hayley: You’re, we’re probably not as
far as
you think, if I had to guess.
Nick: what’s the
Joe: So I mean
38The, in my mind, the farmer and this tethers a little bit, what’s the power source?
Because that’s always, that’s a, because the arc reactor was the hand avium power
source that didn’t generate a lot of heat. It gave out tons of energy. But that we don’t
really have an equivalent or do we?
Hayley: I agree. I don’t see, I don’t think we
have an equivalent.
And actually It’s interesting
when the movie iRobot came out, like back in whenever that was [00:37:00] actu-
ally I come from a family
of engineers, So
all three
of my sisters are engineer. My dad’s an engineer. And
Nick: Oh, damn. Wait, is your mom an engineer too?
Hayley: What’s
Nick: Is your mom an engineer too?
Hayley: Nah,
Nick: No,
Oh, I was gonna say like, did they? Right.
Joe: Yeah.
Hayley: it’s a STEM
family. But yeah, we were talking about the A power source.
right? That That could go around that. And I still don’t think that we have that
battery technology
is advancing. and I think,
You know,
We joke about ai right? And all the
39evils and good evils
that come with that from a creative perspective,
I think that are we definitely
hear a lot about that in the writing. community, But
I
do think that they are, they’re able,
to use AI to look at the optimization for batteries, and I think they are
doing that,
Joe: Yeah. Yeah.
Nick: Which I think is a good idea to use it for like certain things. Ai. Yeah. I
want AI to test that,
but like, I don’t want it to be being the actors in the movies. It’s
Hayley: There is an ethical use of AI.
agreed, and
I hope [00:38:00] it
is to Make our lives.
better.
so that
we can make more art.
Joe: That’s right. Yeah.
Nick: Not having it do the art. Yeah. Degree
Joe: and taxes.
Well, unless you enjoy doing taxes, but
yeah,
Geo: laundry.
Joe: yeah. Or laundry. Yeah.
40Nick: Don’t get me started on
the taxes.
There’s
Joe: Yeah.
Nick: It’s gonna get us shut down.
Joe: No, yeah, no, I meant suit,
Geo: so
Joe: Yeah.
But yeah, no, that’s yeah, that I was thinking about because we, the biomechanical
kind of outfits Aliens, Ripley, , she had the, you know,
get away from
her, you bitch.
Yeah. Yeah.
Nick: oh man,
if only we had video. I did a great
interpretation of this,
Joe: video’s coming soon. And you’ll get to see Nick do whatever he was just do-
ing. Yeah, no, it’s
Geo: and
the, speed walking.
Joe: the, I mean, the other
area where we think about endurance is actually flight and going to other planets
and.
Everything involved in that because we think about going, you know, there’s some
endurance to G-Force things that are applied to your body as you go. But then
[00:39:00] if we think about being in space just your body undergoes in
41A zero G kind of environment. All sorts of losses, muscle loss, mechanical loss.
And then if you’re actually on other planets with different gravities or like our
moon or Mars,
then
Geo: Right.
Joe: your endurance, everything changes. So like I was thinking, like running a
marathon on like the moon would be really wonky ’cause you really wouldn’t run,
you’d be kind of hopping along. Am I right here?
You’re an engineer Usually.
I’m just sub
biologist. So,
Hayley: so it’s, well it’s funny.
so like
into,
so.
my book Into The Turn they do a race, right. That’s
part of it is inspired by, ultra marathoning and
it is what
that’s actually brought up is the level of GForce on the different
planets and how that affects Is,
the people from those planets, you know, their endurance.
And actually
I looked up, I actually, in that journey of doing that, I was looking up what toler-
ance that
humans have,
to live at different GS for a certain amount of
42time. because I don’t know if you guys are ever dragging ball Z
[00:40:00] fans, but like.
Nick: Yes.
Hayley: But like, Viji and Goku, they
train at like three times.
G and
I was like, is that
possible?
Like, and the answer actually really is
no, that humans really cannot survive
very long Outside of one G without external
intervention. We’re just, not made for that. We would Have to alter our bodies in
some way. The bone Density, and I think the show or the book series.
the
Joe: Mm-hmm. That’s right.
Hayley: of showing them altering the
body in order for Them to be able to survive long term in different. G environ-
ments.
Joe: Yep. There’s a lot of, there’s another movie where they were trying to create.
Humans modify human genetics to live on other planets. And conversely living under-
water, like leviathan, like creating humans that can withstand the pressures of deep
sea mining, of rare earth, elements.
So, but yeah, the spacing and it’s just interesting that you go and then what would
happen? So let’s say you train on, a lesser G or a [00:41:00] greater G and then come
back to earth to run.
43Nick: So going from two Gs to one G, is that gonna make you faster? Like, isn’t
that what, sorry? I might be wrong for Superman, Isn’t he in a different, like, coming
from a different amount of Gs?
Joe: We don’t know. I don’t. Actually, I don’t know what the,
Nick: because isn’t that why he could fly and stuff?
Joe: Alright, that’s, hold on. That’s a different, yeah, that’s why he could jump high,
right? That ’cause originally he only could jump. Yeah, really high. He didn’t really fly
Nick: falling with
style.
So
Joe: yeah. So if you’re on, if, I mean if Hayley, maybe you’ve said you’ve done
some reason, but if you’re my mind, biologically, if you’re on a greater g training your
bone density, muscle density, I mean, almost be like very vigorous training with like
backpacks full of weights, like all the time in training there.
So your body would try to adapt to that your lung capacity. So yeah, if you trained
at two G and then came back to one G, you would have [00:42:00] potentially more
endurance, but you probably wouldn’t have more speed. You probably would lose
agility. I mean, in my mind, because you would just, your bone density, your muscle
density, everything.
So usually if you. If you think of a big bodybuilder dude or woman they usually
lack flexibility.
Oh yeah.
And they’re not,
Nick: I know, that for certain, I have a buddy who’s a professional
Joe: I didn’t know
Geo: I was like, wait, a second,
44Nick: He can’t reach. his back.
Joe: Yeah. So,
so
that
Nick: would
be Jared martin, go ahead and look him up and give him all the hell in the world.
Joe: You hear
that out there.
Um, tell him Nick sent you. but yeah. Is that, I mean, Hayley, does that sound right
Hayley: Yeah, that that sounds right to me.
So, so in my book I did, so that’s actually one of the reasons why the main charac-
ter has an advantage is that she did grow up on a on a
planet that
had
A higher G and
then she came to this planet
with, that had a lower G that has this race. So that’s one of the advantages that
she does bring, and for her it is a high, she’s a, she’s kind of a hybrid. ’cause She
has also spent like [00:43:00] five years in this new environment as well, which has giv-
en her the ability to adapt. So I think,
I mean.
I love
That idea of doing that. But it’s funny ’cause I think humans are
so
much more like goldfish than we really want to admit that we are where we cannot
survive outside of these very limited super conditions.
45Because I mean, even
when we talk about diving, right? You just talked about
diving and like, So I’ve
I’ve done
some dives,
Myself and I have a lot
of friends that dive and, I mean, the
bends is just,
Joe: yeah, that’s right.
Hayley: So That’s like where, you know, you come up too fast. From how I think. I
think that’s like what
Anything below 60 feet and you have to, you usually have to hang out at around
15 feet to give your, for like a couple minutes to give your body time to
acclimate before you
go up.
And if you don’t, you get the Bends, which can be very life threatening.
Nick: Wait, can you go ahead and explain the bends?
Hayley: What’s that?
Nick: Can you go ahead and explain what that is?
Hayley: So
I think I’m trying to think, I’m trying to think of the the science behind it other than
the
pressure [00:44:00] on your
brain
and like the
Nick: oh
46Hayley: your brain it me it messes
Joe: yeah. It’s like nitrogen bubbles in your blood that cannot escape. So it, They
can’t be safely exhaled. So you get all sorts of joint pain, dizziness, all of the air spaces
in your body just are extremely
Hayley: It can get like in your joint,
Joe: Yeah. So, right.
Hayley: joints, in your brain,
and like, and it
can kill you. It can last a
lifetime.
It can. So, and it’s
kind of wild, Right, because we do diving for fun, but it is like, it is super. danger-
ous and We’re not even going that far down. Right? Like humans can only safely go
like, you know,
our.
I mean, if you go any further than a hundred feet, then
you’re, you can Only, stay down there, right? There’s a whole table. So if you dive,
there’s a whole day table for how deep you go and how long you could stay.
and if you’re going to about
a hundred feet, you can only stay for about five to 10 minutes before you have
to start,
your at a set up.
So when we’re talking about doing Gs, like we can’t even, we can’t even
[00:45:00] go a hundred feet down,
Joe: yeah,
Geo: no,
47Joe: we’re, I mean we’re designed for, we’re not extremophiles. So that’s, we
are
Geo: Wow.
Nick: y’all are really shoving that
in.
Joe: If you have your drinking game card and that’s it, extremophiles.
Nick: So wait, why do whales get to go up and down? Like, do they have some-
thing in them that allows them to. Go to such depths and then come right back up.
Joe: They don’t usually, they, when they dive, they usually don’t, in my under-
standing, I’m not I’m not a whale biologist, but my understanding is when they dive
they continue to dive, and then when they ascend they actually ascend slowly back to
the surface. But yeah, I don’t know if they make quick
that jetting because of
Geo: because of that very thing.
Nick: So
they’re they’re not just going down. grabbing something and
Joe: no, but I would’ve to look that up and put that in the show notes, but I, unless
Hayley, do you know, I mean, I
Nick: sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt you there, Hayley
either.
Hayley: I’m not I’m actually not sure
Joe: I think when they, I think when they [00:46:00] dive, like they don’t, once they
start diving, they they continue their descent and then when they ascend, they kind of
yeah.
Yeah. I don’t think it’s a quick, if
Hayley: If I had to, guess too, I would assume that.
48their girth also
provides some protection that they’re just
a Little less fragile, but
I bet that’s just a
Joe: yeah. The cardiovascular system could be a little different. They probably to
ascend, they have to use, air sacks. I’m trying to think of modifications they would
have that would be special for them to their boy that, to control their buoyancy.
Hayley: Yeah.
I think we, if we were truly to go to another planet, or even for long-term space,
flight, I actually,
think that a suit would, and once again in, in my
book, they also have
suits that help them to acclimate. That I think a suit to, to assist your body like, like
an exoskeleton to adapt Would be helpful.
Joe: Would the suit be integrated? Like, so would it be kind of like a cyborg kind
of thing? Would it integrate into. You know, or would just be truly external? Or do
[00:47:00] you think it would become part of the human to actually to have neurologi-
cal control, have all these kind of features?
Hayley: That’s a good question.
It is funny because
I
feel like
as an it’s tough because like, I
feel like, you know,
It’s funny ’cause when
I think
49one of the, one
of the things
that I think will become a thing in the future is like a chip, right? Like, oh, eventual-
ly that will have it a
chip in some, you know, that we’re able to implant some way in our brain to ac-
cess essentially the internet, right. And information and in a, at a thought speed. How-
ever, and I think that technology would be better if it was implanted.
However, I think that you’re gonna run up against the willingness of people to per-
manently modify their body with technology in a way that they don’t have. a control
over and they don’t understand.
’cause then I think you’re going to get into a lot of the cons, conspiracy and
And paranoia.
Nick: The subscription fees and all that.
Joe: You know,
Money seems to [00:48:00] be a driver, so I’m sure there’s people that are now,
you know, there’s companies that you know, oh, if you implant mag chips to open
doors and things. So there are people who are doing that at particular companies.
So I think there are people who are biohacking themselves. So I think there will be
a
group of people who jump in to the deep end and to see what happens.
Hayley: That’s just kind wild too, because, I mean, then you’re talking about the
obsolescence of technology, so you’re talking about having to update and then you
know,
you talk about having to insert
Joe: Can you be hacked? I mean, what’s the hacking, what’s your all these kind of,
yeah, no, I think once you start to.
50Biomechanically alter yourself. And then
Nick: I think cyberpunk, 2077 ends up talking about that. Where you’re able to
hack other people. Right, And it’s like, oh Now we’re that, that’s a good possibility.
Now that’s stuck in my head.
Joe: No, I think you right. I think you’d have that in it.
Would you take control of someone or can you control ’em? Can you run ’em like
a drone then essentially [00:49:00] for your work hours you’re just gonna be biome-
chanically, , running an ultra marathon.
Nick: Well, even with heart monitors and
stuff, if that, stuff can be hacked, then Like,
you can end that person’s life pretty easily.
Joe: The, like bio quantum and things like that, where now you’re using quantum
technology and quantum sensors that can go in and do monitoring of your biological
activity inside.
So as you are doing these things, as you are trying to push the limits of your hu-
man condition you’re getting instant feedback. It’s not even delayed, like where you
gotta, oh, do blood draws or temperature? No, it’s just, second by second you’re get-
ting a readout of core temperature of pH of all these kind of factors that are control-
ling.
And then can you actually modify it? So can we take someone, run ’em on the
treadmill, get this information, and they go, okay, here’s what you need now to be
modified. Genetically and to be compatible with your bio mechanical suit. [00:50:00]
Right. So that’s, that would be the ultimate, where you’re really like, so we’re headed
towards personalized medicine.
What about personalized, bio modifications both genetically and mechanically
Hayley: That’s always like, where it gets
51so Scary for me because
like I, when I think about that, of course.
at first I think the cost, right?
And So then of course. you
Joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Hayley: all of These
technologies would be for the extremely rich. And then
you would think, well, okay then what kind of like case are we creating?
In which case we
have, I mean, so I, the
The show with the evil superheroes, Why is it
not coming
The Boys?
so right. It’s like,
so
I mean, then it’s okay, if we have this case of very rich bio modified people, you
know, it’s like,
how
does.
that gonna
Affect.
us as a
society?
Is like what? So that’s where it gets wild for,
me,
is how that,
52Joe: yeah. I mean, you have the movie Repo Man,
Nick: Yes
Joe: the Forest Whitaker one. But where they had artificial organ, mechanical, bio-
mechanical organs that [00:51:00] people were getting, and then if they couldn’t
make the payments, then they had to, the repo men would come and repossess their
heart or liver or whatever organ was put in.
So yeah, it was, it’s a, actually, if you haven’t seen, is a really great movie, has a re-
ally twisty end at the end. So, but that, that plays that dilemma out. Like what happens
when, you’re buying modifications like. Used car,
Nick: Well, then you also get the black market that opens up with that, right.
Like
Doing underground modifications. And it’s like how safe is that gonna be? And
then gets real sketchy.
Joe: Yeah. Especially if you, I mean, like I said, you include the biomechanical,
Nick: can’t wait to do this episode
Joe: and you go and you have that, so, yeah. No, so it is very, and then you’re
right.
Then, the ultra wealthy they’ll get theirs and then you’ll have people doing it for
work. Like, are you need to be an underwater miner. So you need these modifications
to be successful at your work, but that means you won’t be able to live on [00:52:00]
land unless you, we take it away. After you earn so much, right?
So you start to set up these
Nick: paying the company. back.
Joe: That’s right. Yeah. We gave you these modifications, you’ve made money and
now you need to pay to have them undone. To start a normal
Nick: sounds like the Waylon corporation.
53Joe: Yeah. There you
Hayley: Or Yeah.
Or you can even go, I mean, kind of bringing us back to
like the bi the bio designing, right? Like there are, I know there are a couple books
out there, like the one of them I think of is the House of the Scorpion, where they use
clones,
right? Where They’re
growing these clones for the very purpose
of using their organs as
Joe: Right,
Hayley: For their original hosts.
But then if you
start Thinking, about, well, if we’re gonna go down this path, of, you know, this
thought path of the clones, Then you could start thinking of, well, are we, go, can we
alter the genetic makeup of a clone? Is it easier rather than to alter someone that’s al-
ready grown? Or is it easier to you know, adjust those embryos in in, in the beginning
Joe: Yep. Yep.
Hayley: Grow [00:53:00] specialized Mm-hmm.
space, or to go to the deep.
Joe: Yeah, that right. And that’s where I think their the movie I mentioned
Leviathan, but that was The Deep Sea one. It was a b horror movie, but one, one of my
favorites where, but they put the gene modification.
In
the vodka that they weren’t supposed to drink.
54Like they found it on some Russian UNK ship, and then they brought it back, and
then they started turning into these weird sea creature things. So yeah. No. Did you
see Leviathan?
Nick: No. I don’t think I have.
I feel like, that’s going on my list though.
Joe: it should be. Yeah. It’s got
Nick: it sounds familiar, like Peter,
Joe: is it Peter Wells, the Robocop actor?
He’s the main guy in it. And yeah. That was part of my childhood. And then it, I was
thinking of the book never Let Me Go. That was the one. Yes, that was it. Yeah. Yeah.
So, and they were growing clone.
You
were cloned at birth and then your clone was living a life, but it didn’t know it was
the replacement.
For some counterpart,
Geo: we need that heart. Sorry.
Joe: Yeah,
that’s [00:54:00] right. Yeah. No, that, that’s
exactly what it was. So, yeah, no yeah, and I just recently finished watching Firefly,
the
Nick: Yes,
Joe: and there was the last, was it the last episode where they had the or no, the
Geo: next are you gonna spoil it?
Joe: well, they just had a, the guy that was there, he was transporting organs.
So they were growing the organs in him, and then they were they would then, they
would go deliver ’em, then they would put his original organs back in. So they were
55like gene modified organs. That had to be transported in the living human. And so
they had live human mules running organs. So yeah. Yeah, you’re getting all these
weird,
Geo: that sounds like a fun, job.
Joe: Yeah, that’s right.
Yeah. All right. So we’ve touched a lot, I think of The bleak biomechanical future.
Nick: I mean, I do have one more question.
Joe: Go for it.
Nick: Have you thought about like actually putting together the suits that you
made for your book?
Hayley: Oh
my gosh. [00:55:00] I think, you know what’s funny, I
always used to say that the bioengineers and chemical engineers were like the
most difficult engineering because you were, like, I, don’t know. There’s just some-
thing about
taking
the bio part of science and Putting,
it
together. with engineering.
That was just
blew my mind. So that’s definitely not my area
expertise. ’cause like
in,
in my book. The suits that they have
The way.
56that they explain that the energy is they actually harvest the energy from the body.
So as
long as You’re continuing to,
replace the energy like that, you’re, that you’re expending
Nick: oh, like Jason Statham and Crank, is that Crank?
Joe: I don’t know. Maybe
I didn’t.
Hayley: that one,
Nick: I think that’s the one.
Is where he has to keep his heart rate going.
up,
Joe: Yeah. That is Crank. That’s that. That’s the line. Yeah. Yeah. I, no one ever does
photosynthesis. That’s a very efficient
Nick: I’m so sorry.
I didn’t mean to compare you to that. movie. I don’t know if you
Hayley: good. I know that humans, we
usually think
about how much
energy that
that we
expend, that we just have, you know,
are essentially
these Human batteries, right?
And If we could harness
our Energy
[00:56:00] and in,
57in some kind of and the suit could take advantage of that along with the nanana.
I think I have
a nanana, it’s made of
naite lattice, which actually probably does exist somewhere like, but Having to
make that biomechanical
link with the suit I think would be the tough part.
And also
in my book, we, they actually, they have these gogs that also links in. Once again
there it’s a it is like the chip that I described earlier that I thought is
One day gonna have. But it’s removable because I think, you know, that
people
like
to try to,
preserve their autonomy in some
ways, and
that linking
the thought to the suit
as well,
Is an amazing technology that I think is still belongs in science fiction, but would
be
Nick: Hell yeah.
Hayley: I.
Joe: Definitely. Yeah.
Cool.
Nick: Any last questions, Joe?
58Joe: I think that’s that’s it because it will, it’ll just keep going , we’ll just keep talk-
ing about stuff. ’cause Yeah. You raised that point, but now they’re doing things. With
folks who are amputees that are getting prosthetic limbs, they’re reconnecting those
back into their, [00:57:00] brain and then using AI to filter noise out to make the signal
very pure and controllable.
So that’s that’s now that’s, now technology not even sci-fi in there. So, yeah, no
some, so there’s cool things like that where, , it’s not pushing the body to extreme, but
you I think when I think about that you could start imagining a world where people
make decisions about removing their natural born limbs.
To replace it with a biomechanical limb that has some special feature, doesn’t feel
pain can have incredible grip strength. It doesn’t fail. So will people start making that
decision based on, , I have the money, I have the resources. You know what? I really
don’t, I don’t want a left arm, normal biological left arm.
I want the carbon fiber, nano lattice, mechanical arm. They now can plug that into
your brain. It’s not controlled by another chip it’s still you. You have a filtering device
or whatever that is, it’s tuned to you. [00:58:00] Okay. Get that off. And now you have
this extremely powerful, limb attached to your body that I can do incredible things.
Or will sport be that I want to be a basketball player? Okay, modify my legs, my
arms. Okay.
Nick: Now
I’d watch sports if that
was the case,
Geo: Well you
don’t get to watch. a modify,
Joe: that’s right.
Nick: No. I want them to be who
59wants straight up modified.
Joe: it. No,
so I think you could start thinking of this thing like pitchers, like I can throw now
ball 200 miles per hour.
’cause I’ve, you know, ’cause I’m making a hundred million dollars a year. That was
worth it to me to replace my arm to get, you know, so
Geo: that, but then there may be restrictions.
Right right.
Nick: None. I’d want
Joe: Nick will not be allowed to get, that’s the restriction.
Number one
Nick: No,
Geo: he won’t be allowed to compete if you have a bio,
Joe: Hayley, you got, looks like you’re,
Hayley: I mean, it’s just, it, is amazing ’cause I mean, there are even
today, there are leg lengthening
procedures. I mean, I know that people can
go and get, leg tion, and when we talk about,
enhancing
the human body,
I mean steroids, right? I mean, there are, there people take
[00:59:00] steroids And that is essentially,
you know, a, an enhancing drug that has costs.
But that obviously that, that people take. And whenever we
talk about those big technologies. I think it is amazing. I think people don’t realize
the
60amount of technology
and the futuristic things that do
exist right now.
And
The hurdles that
are,
that the reason that we don’t hear about.
them as much as, you know, we probably would like to, except on those, you
know, on the extreme is trying to make them producible, right?
That they’re trying to make
it Producible and affordable. and like that. I think That’s like the really, like, oh, it’s
always like the drag part of,
being an engineer is that you’re like,
oh, you know, here’s, this, like, we could
do all these amazing things.
It’s like, okay, well, can you make more? than one?
Joe: And
Nick: you
make Where it doesn’t cost Yeah,
exactly.
Geo: Right.
Hayley: Right.
Geo: realistic.
Yeah.
Joe: Yeah. I was gonna mention that I feel like we can’t have an episode without
mentioning kind of the birth or the idea of the marathon In Greek mythology in . Fip
61Nick: is
this, the first mention of a marathon? [01:00:00]
Joe: it was, see that, that ran a marathon at Anthems to develop, to deliver the vic-
tory message. And then he, and he died when he did that run.
So that’s that was the marathon. And it was supposed to be like 26.2 miles or, and
that was the distance, but he ran from Marathon Anthem, so that became the
marathon. So yeah, so.
Nick: have
you ran that amount, right? Like
Joe: she’s ran ultra
Nick: So
that’s what I’m saying, like
it
Joe: more than that
Nick: She’s doubled that
like.
Hayley: So, so I have run 26.2, but
I think it’s really interesting too, because there is an
ultra marathon in Greece that runs the route that he was
supposed to run,
And I,
for whatever reason, it’s way more than 26.2. It’s like, I think it’s like 125
Miles or something.
Even the Greek mythology, right? It is 26 point 20.
But, and, but They say, you know,
the, they say
62this was the route that he ran. It was actually,
a hundred and like 25,
and you have to do it in a ridiculous amount of time. It’s like 40. It’s like
It’s like 20, 20 hours ’cause it is supposed to be in the [01:01:00] amount of time
that he ran it.
And
if
I’ll have to
I’ll send you,
I’ll send you the link
To
this race ’cause it is wild. And yes, when I look at that, I’m like, yeah, I can see how
someone would die.
Because you’re also not talking about running
on roads, right.
Joe: That’s right. Yeah. That was,
Hayley: Greek
wilderness.
Joe: There was no yeah, no nicely paved streets. That
Nick: running from a bear a little bit, you know,
Joe: running from those dinosaurs, Jurassic Park, get that , you’re not running that
poorly constructed, genetically constructed dinosaurs wreck. So just let’s keep that in
mind.
When those dodos come back, they’re
Nick: I can’t wait.
you.
63I’m getting one as a pet.
Joe: Yeah. I don’t wanna mess with those birds.
Leave those birds
alone. Okay. I think that’s all I got. All right. I mean, I got more, but that’s all we got
time
Nick: We can keep going, but
Joe: I
could
Nick: going.
Joe: It’s a fun, yeah.
Cool.
Nick: But
so what
is the one movie that you think would use, should use more running in it? Like
Joe: there’s more
Nick: if,[01:02:00]
All right, so let me propose
this one better. question
running would be the answer in this situation for a movie like Jurassic Park, run-
ning away from them for a long time is gonna get you away from them, like
Joe: it’s gonna get you eaten.
Nick: Is it?
Joe: I think so,
yeah.
Nick: I think,
Geo: what do you mean? Like a zombie movie? That’s
64probably a good one.
to run
Nick: probably, I mean, it
follows is the first one that comes to mind. You know
Joe: Jason part six, the ultra marathoner, and he just follows you the whole thing.
Like he
Nick: He’s
trying to get me.
Hayley: So like, ’cause I mean in like in stuff like you know, world War Z,
you know. the zombies are Like super. supercharged
Nick: Those are, Joe’s
favorite. Those
are Joe’s
favorite zombie.
Joe: Don’t
get me started on fast zombies unless you’re biomechanically engineering them.
They’re not fast. You so
I wanted to
Nick: get started Nope. Nope.
no. because, and I’m
you can keep going.
Let’s just point that
Joe: the zombie in a [01:03:00] decay state cannot be faster than the living state.
I just find that hard to believe. So that’s it. Unless all those zombies were Hussein
Bolt before they turn to zombies,
they
65shouldn’t be running that fast. You know? It. So
Hayley: yeah, they can’t be decaying. They have to be rabid. It has to be rabid hu-
mans of
Joe: that’s, I would go if it’s like the, if 28 days later rage virus. ’cause they weren’t
technically, I mean, some were, I mean, it was a
Nick: weird
Yeah, it’s,
Joe: Yeah.
It was, they, it was fast and loose. Who was dead and who was just kind of infected
and angry. I will say that, but you shouldn’t be running full speed like that there,
there’s all sorts of problems. But there
Hayley: there is so there’s a Nike, there was an old Nike commercial where.
like Jason or someone was
coming after her And she just started running and she was running so far that Ja-
son just got tired and gave up. And like,
I honestly think if in any ghost movie where like the house is haunted and anything
where there’s a
guy in the house, like my solution is to run out of the house.
Joe: Yes. [01:04:00]
Nick: Right.
Geo: Right.
Joe: That’s probably
Nick: it’s a good,
instinct.
Geo: Yes.
Right.
66Joe: Yes. And your fight or flight will kick in, you know, you’ll break through any in-
visible walls and make it through.
Yeah.
Nick: Well, Thank you for being here with us.
It’s absolutely great.
Joe: Have any things you wanna plug? Any events, books, your
Nick: marathons
Joe: of your many books, your series? You got a couple, so do you wanna quickly,
Hayley: just wanna say thanks so much for having me. It’s been
a, it’s been a wonderful conversation. I’ve really enjoyed,
it. I always love talking science fiction. I
am, once again, I am a I.
have a science sci-fi series out, it’s called Into the Churn. It’s a completed series.
It’s about a girl an that she’s trying to save her mom’s terraforming lab by
entering this deadly.
race through a planet of storms.
And
It’s a lot of fun.
I usually pitch it as
like, hunger Games meets Twister, meets like Rogue One. So
it’s a good time if you’re interested
in something like that Into the Turn. Like I said, include series is out now,
so I really, once again, really appreciate being on the
Joe: Definitely. And congratulations. Right? I saw in Publisher’s Marketplace you
had [01:05:00] a,
Hayley: Yeah.
67So I Also,
have a
a very
Quirky young adult paranormal that we pitched as.
Adam’s Family
meets
Gilmore Girls meets like
Spirited away. That’s coming from Charlesburg
publishing.
but not till
Joe: Seven. Yeah. Cool.
Nick: We’ll have to get you back on for that when that comes out.
Exactly. Right? Love So you’ve,
I’m on my, first watch
through.
Joe: Yeah. I’ve watched Gilmore Girls a couple times. I’m on my second or third
watch.
I don’t know. But yeah, so. Awesome. Well, no, thanks for coming on. This was a
great conversation. I don’t always like running, but it was fun talking about it, so,
Nick: I
mean,
Geo: I’d
Nick: can’t say I I huge on running, but I think I might try to pick it up again.
Joe: Yeah, gotta do it. Let’s
Nick: Georgia, we’re gonna do a marathon.
Right?
68Joe: know what I
always wanna do, I’m not
sure.
Geo: maybe a walk the, race,
Joe: one of the
races I wanted to do, I had it on my race, like bucket list some years ago, but they
have these multi state city races. Like, so there was one where you run from Madison,
[01:06:00] Wisconsin to Chicago, and then there’s a route and it’s a overnight race
and you have a team of like five people and you usually match up the people, you
know, if someone’s really good at running hills for, 10 miles, 20 miles, and they run
that section and it, there’s a following van that you know has bandaids and,
Geo: I’ll drive the van. yeah,
Joe: I, and there’s a few, like the one, but there was a, the one that went from I, I
think Miami to the Keys and you run the final leg is the run out onto the, you know,
across the bridge onto the keys you know, and so, and there was one on the Pacific
Northwest and I was like, oh, I gotta get a team and do this.
And so, but I never found the other. Five people the Adidas with, so,
Geo: I don’t think,
Joe: am,
you don’t count me in,
so, but no it’s a cool,
Nick: I mean, maybe if I get really hi Joe, I can try. We’ll have to see.
Joe: Yeah. So, okay, that’s something fun. I’ll put that, I’ll put in the show notes if
anybody wants to
do
Nick: that.
69Joe: Cool.
All right, well you have me, Joe [01:07:00] here.
Nick: You got Nick.
Joe: got Nick,
Geo: Georgia,
Joe: you’ve got Georgia.
Nick: And we ran down some holes,
Joe: Oh, really long. Way down these holes.
Nick: runny holes.
Bye-bye.
Cheers.