j: [00:00:00] Hey, welcome back to the rabbit hole of research. We’re down. No, we’re not
nick: are we? I don’t think we are. At the
j: We are not in the basement studio. This is the month of October, month of horror
geo: Like our first season
j: we took the show on the road and we are here being hosted by the Horror House.
nick: Hello all.
Moses: Hey, what’s up you guys? Thanks for coming.
Vinny: location, so we have a little more
j: bigger location.
geo: Yeah. It’s really stretch
nick: my legs out a little
j: bit. A lot has happened.
It is night.
nick: time
j: Yeah. Yeah. We were tucked in. It was cozy. It was a cozy, comfortable horror space. Yeah.
geo: Yeah. Nice. Where, what’s the address now?
Vinny: 28 42 North Milwaukee Avenue. So
nick: are the voices we’re hearing?
j: I know
Moses: Moses Gibson and my brother Vincenzo Malave,
Vinny: Vinny.
For people who don’t want to save Vincenzo.
j: Yeah. And you got me, Joe,
nick: You got Nick.
j: Nick. We’ve got Nick Georgia. We’ve got Georgia, and we’re here at the Horror [00:01:00] House, converting it to the basement studio once again.
geo: Recording. Live right now, but not live that you won’t get to sit here at
nick: No. They’re hearing this as we
Vinny: Yeah, so don’t try knocking on our door and expecting
geo: get
j: on
Vinny: here with the headphones on recording a podcast. ’cause sorry to break
j: the mic. Hey, is this podcast happening? The other day we’re gonna talk about graveyards, ghost and graveyards and the horror in involved in that. Which there’s a bit. So we’ll see where we get to. Like always I do have a opening, but if Vinny, Moses.
If you guys want to go and just introduce yourself, introduce the shop and then we’ll do some promos at the end for you guys.
geo: Absolutely.
Moses: Yeah. Thank you guys for coming first of all. This is the Horror House. So my brother said 28 42 North Milwaukee Avenue or right across the street from this awesome horror themed coffee shop called The Brood. So if you’re ever in the area in Chicago, you gotta come check us out.
We sell all manner of different horror merch and [00:02:00] memorabilia from apparel posters, figures, collectibles, art pieces, you name it. VIN
Vinny: as far as a little background mean, Moses started doing this back in like 2016 when we started a brand called the Cryptic Closet.
Fast forward six years and we’re opening up a horror shop where we carry the cryptic closet stuff and a bunch of our friends.
Yeah, it’s been cool. We’ve been a store firm for about three years and do a lot of special events and I don’t know, I think just try to keep ourselves very involved in the horror community in Chicago.
j: Yeah. Yeah. If you haven’t come and visited, you should make a trip to the Horror House and check everyone out. Moses Vinny, they’re super nice. They’re super chill dudes, so come on in. Even though tar themed, there’s probably something for everyone and a great coffee shop, you know, the brood we got some coffees there this morning.
So yeah, really
Vinny: There’s a guy who comes in every week who just comes in to walk over to the Mortal Kombat machine in play.
j: Oh, yeah. There you go.
Vinny: He’s been, he’s come for the [00:03:00] past, like almost year and yesterday when he came in, he played and then he walked out and he looked at me and he said, nice to meet you.
j: I
Vinny: met him like 20 times.
nick: You’re
Vinny: change my voice when I said it. But yeah, so come in. We’ll, literally, if you just wanna come and play Terminator or Mortal Kombat.
All is welcome.
j: There we go. Hell cool.
So yeah, so let’s jump into this. Let me
nick: a list for this, Joe?
j: I have a list at some point, but I’m gonna, I’m just gonna give a little let’s set the groundwork or what’s beneath the ground.
So I, I’ve got graveyards. Worms
nick: worms,
j: are human landscapes of memory and mortality. They are places where the living organized to dead shaping stone and soil into records of history. At their simplest graveyards are spaces of burial and ritual defined by rows of markers of habitats, and the quiet work of decomposition beneath the ground.
As Nick said, worms, they serve practical, cultural, and ecological functions from the management of remains to the preservation of collective memory, and even as accidental [00:04:00] sanctuaries for wildlife. Ghosts by contrast, are intangible presences, aberrations said, to persist beyond death. Wandering in place where memory, grief, and fear converge.
They appear in every culture and every era, sometimes as harbinger of danger, sometimes as ancestors, keeping watch sometimes as restless. Echoes of lives unfinished. it seems like a door
Vinny: cat.
j: Oh, okay. Yeah. I’m like, oh man, here we go.
Vinny: or a graveyard.
geo: You’re introducing the, our guest.
nick: I was like, I saw a door open.
geo: our ghost guest. Perfect
j: segue explanations,
Moses: goes like, oh, hell nah.
nick: like,
j: It’s done. We’re
nick: I was down for it. All right, we’re finished. I was like, let’s go get that. Ouija board boys.
j: Yeah. . great , segue here. Explanations range from neuroscience and physics to folklore and theology.
Yet the ghost endures as a cultural constant haunting of spaces where the living and dead overlap. And this episode , we’ll enter the graveyard gates [00:05:00] to explore the science and symbolism of ghosts. So
nick: just to start off, ghosts aren’t always in graveyards. Yes, they can
j: That’s true. Yes.
nick: In houses, in bars,Reed’s,local
Vinny: in,
Moses: reads. Yeah. I heard
j: Yes. There is a ghost
Moses: I heard that. I heard that. It’s
nick: She says, I still haven’t seen anything.
We had the EMF last
geo: And they haunted our podcast
j: if you listen last year
Moses: forgot about
nick: It wasn’t technical error. It was a ghost
j: It was the ghosts. That’s
Vinny: troll.
Moses: Ghost show. Straight unplugged. Just,
nick: Yeah. It was like, you know what,
j: I don’t we wanna hear this episode. We’re gonna cut it.
Vinny: Yeah. It’s like we’re a ghost, but we’re like a nerdy techo. So I’m gonna fuck up your entire podcast.
I’m not gonna boo you.
j: I think the that Melissa say the ghost preferred gin and we were drinking Molart. I know. There, there was probably some conflict of spirits.
That’s right. And it makes sense
And it
geo: makes sense because that spot used to be a mortuary.
j: Right. That’s right. Yep. Yep. And we’ll,
Vinny: my question is, how did she find out that the ghost likes gin?[00:06:00]
j: yeah, there
Vinny: like she probably left out a little shot glass and then like, cut the straw in
j: I think there was some mention that it ask in some way. I don’t know.
Let’s, she
Vinny: We’ll have to, we’ll have to revisit that.
j: again. Yeah.
Moses: No, I don’t like Jim.
I am Agin.
nick: and a gin.
Vinny: Style.
j: Yeah.
nick: Ooh. That makes it even worse.
j: but yeah, there’ve been tons of movies. Oh.
geo: Oh no, I was gonna say, I think that’s what Joe was saying, ghosts and graveyards. Like not necessarily only ghosts and graveyards. No
nick: I just had to make sure, you know,
j: and usually a lot of thinking
nick: that only if you’re in a graveyard, you’re
j: No.
Vinny: Listen, the movie Ghosts with Patrick Swayze,
nick: Swayze
Vinny: one of my favorite movies.
And then the not to, there was not even one graveyard
j: There was not a graveyard. And I was gonna say, most ghost movies or cultural references don’t necessarily happen in a graveyard. They usually happen in the house or there’s some,
nick: if there is, the graveyard has been paved over.
j: now.
geo: Exactly.
j: Poltergeist.
Poltergeist. Go
Poltergeist going [00:07:00] Poltergeist. There it is. Little
nick: ghost there.
Moses: Little disrespect to the,
j: Yeah.
nick: I mean it’s a typical story. Disrespect.
j: You gotta have respect there, ancient burial grounds and you go forward. Yeah. So
geo: all right guys.
Moses: what
j: else we
geo: Why are you looking at me?
Vinny: The new
j: I dunno. I was looking at everybody. I’m gonna go
nick: I thought Georgia had something to say
Moses: We already covered Ghost, the movie
j: We got movie
Vinny: Okay.
I was just gonna say, I was like, I can keep talking about ghosts.
Like I, I’ll put a penny on the door right now. I love that movie.
nick: Yeah.
j: It’s been a while since I’ve watched ghosts.
But it had all the elements there where the, you know, usually a lot of the ghost themes some of them, they come back because they were wronged and then they’re trying to correct that wrong. And so part of the movie is them figuring out they were ghosts and then trying to do something with their ghost hood.
It’s Ghost Hood and then Tale From
Moses: the hood.
j: That’s right. Tale. I don’t know what the ghost person. Yeah. Ghost hood. It’s like [00:08:00] adulthood. You know? Now
Vinny: Oh, I thought it was like a neighborhood of
Moses: hood.
j: That’s right.
nick: actually, there’s a ghost hood
j: Is there a movie called Ghost Hood? That’d be cool.
Moses: sounds like we need
j: make it happen.
Yeah, we should make it a ghost hood.
Moses: horror comedy. Let’s go.
j: why’s the rent so cheap here? This is the ghost hood.
nick: Oh, we,
Vinny: the landlord’s, like, I want to go pick up the rent, but my tenant ghosted me.
j: Yeah. We have so many one-liners like that. And then they come back and then and then you are going through their wrong. Then once they correct the wrong, then they are released from the physical plane.
nick: Or if they’re really angry.
j: Usually some, somebody wronged them, right? They usually gotta correct the wrong,
nick: don’t know. I feel like there’s still always just some angry ghosts that are just angry for no reason. That’s if
j: you need a part two.
Vinny: That
Moses: See, they’re haters. They’re in it for the love of the game.
j: That’s right. Yeah. No,
Vinny: Those are the ones, those are the ones that tend to stay on earth. And then like they never make it up to heaven. So they’re bitter or they’re just like stuck in
nick: I thought they’d just become politicians
Vinny: No, they’re waiting for somebody to to record a episode of a podcast with a Ouija board so they can get the
j: That’s [00:09:00] right. It ain’t come out.
nick: I am trying.
geo: unfortunately Nick did not get to do the Ouija board yet.
j: we’re not doing a
nick: Why aren’t we doing the Ouija board?
j: I don’t know.
Vinny: Did you see Somebody made a Luigi board and it’s a Ouija board.
It’s like Super Mario theme and it was pretty badass.
j: I think they have
geo: pretty fun.
Vinny: of that.
j: a OUI board for every, like, you know, it’s a Barbie Ouija board. There’s like every themed
Moses: they sell ’em at Toys are
j: board, right? Yeah.
Yeah.
Vinny: I bought a Stranger Things once and
j: Toys are Rus isn’t toys are ru close?
Moses: They reopened.
geo: Oh
j: they, okay.
Moses: yeah,
j: it
Vinny: It’s
he
the, it’s
geo: Did they just in way?
Vinny: yes.
geo: Just recently, right?
Moses: not
Vinny: yeah, it’s
j: okay. Yeah, basically
Vinny: they took over like an old KB toy spot in the mall, but there’s like no physical location.
I think the only place that I know that has like the old style like tile and all that is in Canada.
j: Okay. Yeah.
geo: Okay. Oh,
j: Yeah. It’s a ghost. Have
geo: the Ghost of Toys Us
Location.
Vinny: They’re supposed to bring back more, but I don’t know if like, I mean it would be really cool if they just targeted the old toys [00:10:00] Russes and just packed back up and opened in those spots.
Because like the places that took over those spots when I walk in, it just feels like toys are us when you first walk in. So I’m like that. That’s the experience for me when they said, oh yeah, toys Are us is open. I went to the mall and I walked into like a shitty little KB toys. I was like,
j: yeah, I felt
Vinny: like I
not the same.
Yeah.
Moses: Funko pops,
geo: But, and then the Ouija boards are for ages eight and above, so
Vinny: I wanna see an 8-year-old. Just get cursed.
j: one of friends. There’s there doing Ouija board stuff. I don’t it was a
geo: people are very much, have a really strong opinion about Ouija boards.
I don’t
nick: understand
it. Like everyone is very much like, hell no. It’s like it’s a toy.
Vinny: I think also we’re in 2025, there’s so many messed up things happening that they’re like, no, I’m not taking another one.
nick: like,
geo: oh, remember like standing the broom up?
Vinny: Oh yeah.
j: Yes. Making
geo: the broom stand.
j: I think you, I think with the Ouija board and a [00:11:00] lot of this stuff, I think people are truly have some respect and fear of supernatural things.
If even if you don’t fully
nick: no respect or fear of
j: that’s why you’re, that’s why you’re gonna be haunted. And I don’t want no parts of it. So that’s
nick: Joe, as a scientist, do you actually believe this?
j: I should poll everyone. You do you believe ghosts
nick: No.
j: You’re, no. Okay. Moses, what do
Moses: Ghosts? I believe in a spiritual realm.
j: Okay. So you believe in ghosts? I don’t know.
Moses: I don’t know if ghost is the
nick: what would you call them?
Moses: Interdimensional entities.
Vinny: That’s too many.
That’s, I’d rather just
j: Aliens, yeah,
Moses: Aliens, ghosts, demons
j: you’re, it sounds like you’re splitting hairs a little bit.
Moses: We’ll just say, we’ll say the demons.
j: if you have like the spirit world, so if one of the spirits come back to the physical world, they would be a ghost.
So you believe there is some congregation of,
geo: there some connection between the spirit world and the
Moses: in the physical plane?
Yeah. Yeah.
geo: I think your answer is yes.
Moses: Yeah,
j: Yeah. Yeah. [00:12:00] I’m gonna go with Yes. He did a bunch of hand waving on there, but
Vinny: I have asthma. I just gotta say ghosts. I can’t say I gotta save my breath. I do believe in ghosts. Don’t, I can’t say how or how it’s, how it works, but there’s been enough between the stories that I’ve heard and stories from my family, from like the old home that my grandparents used to live at. I definitely there’s ghoster just like, there’s some kind of afterlife, you know?
j: Because I’ve
Vinny: seen enough weird shit. And I think all of us, especially with the internet, you know, we’ve seen enough videos that are unexplainable, you know, so I don’t exactly know how or like how to explain it, but I’m one of those people that probably wouldn’t mess with the Ouija board only ’cause I’ve heard stories
From friends or like, you know, when I was younger, me and my cousins played with the Ouija board.
They never seem to end too well. So I’m just like, with my luck it’ll really work really well. So I’m just like,
j: yeah, you
Vinny: I’ll just watch. Yeah.
j: Yeah. Georgia.
geo: Yeah. I think I’m gonna give a wishy-washy [00:13:00] answer. No,
nick: cannot give a wishy-washy answer. You attacked MO
j: I know, right? It was like,
geo: I think there something to that, but I don’t know. I guess can I could still be undecided? No. Alright,
j: right, you can on the side. We’ll revisit at the end there.
Vinny: Ghosted that answer.
j: Yeah. That’s, there
nick: that’s the kind of ghost I believe in ghosting.
geo: I think that definitely is some other presence and like things that are unexplainable.
And I think people have like energies that probably live on after
Vinny: They’re
geo: they are no longer alive. So I guess that could be a go, that could be set that could be ghosts.
j: right? Yeah. I’m not a big believer in the ghosts.
geo: How is that not a big surprise for me?
j: I think our, you know, just a.
Moses: to
j: loop
back maybe a little, but our brains are really good at trying to make patterns out of things that don’t necessarily have a pattern or isn’t real. And so we [00:14:00] try to explain our world and what we perceive through that.
And so I think if something happens, or a noise, like we had just earlier, we were laughing about it while I was opening the show. There was a door creaking open and we were all primed to think about ghosts. And our heads probably all of us, if you’d asked me if I believe in ghosts at that moment, I’d like, yeah, it’s coming.
It’s gonna come through that door right now. And then Vinny goes, no, is this my cat? I’m messing with the door, messing with this. And so I think that’s some of this here and there are a lot of physiological cues that we get from our world that we aren’t maybe necessarily can interpret.
And then we have to funnel that through our cultural experiences and. I think death in, in the afterlife is a big part of that. And so that’s where I stand on
So do you
geo: think that we want to believe in ghosts because we wanna stay connected to those that have died? So it’s interesting ’cause we talk about [00:15:00] fear and ghost and horror obviously, but also it can be of
nick: we’re more prone to be fearful of the ghosts, where in like Asian countries, they’re more open to being Yes.
They’re more friendly.
geo: Right. And I think if anything it gives a comfort, not just a fear, you know, there’s a comfort that
j: I think we’re always looking for that, but then you have, ’cause you don’t necessarily have to see a physical manifestation. To feel though, like I, I think that was Moses. You know, that split in the hairs is like, you, you believe that there is some spirituality or some place afterwards that, spirits go, but not necessarily physically manifesting and moving stuff on your shelf and messing with you.
In some way. Be it fun. I heard Casper
Vinny: I will say I, I’m, you’re saying all this, and in my head I’m like I should have just not told him I had a cat.
j: That’s right. You
Vinny: then you would’ve been even more freaked out. You’ve been like, wait, there you guys, you heard the creek and then a black cat came out, a random black cat.
Like, I [00:16:00] don’t know, dude.
nick: I don’t see a cat just
Moses: I’ve never seen this in my
j: Yeah. You just go What cat? Whatcha talking about
nick: cat are you
Vinny: I have a whole bunch of cat food back there, but it’s purely a coincidence.
nick: It’s a ghost cat
j: cats and ghosts. That’s really interesting is they have gone together historically in there way back to like, the Egyptians believed that cats could see into the afterlife and could ward off evil spirits.
So you have this kind of relationship and then cats through history and across culture, you know, Japanese folklore, they were shape shifting kind of cats tied to death. Medieval Europe, you know, linked with cats, witches and hauntings, which the witches and cats
Moses: the witches.
j: that was
nick: not the witches,
j: the black plague.
There was women who had cats and they didn’t get the plague because the plague was transmitted through fleas on rats. And so if you had cats the rats with the fleas didn’t come into your home and you were less likely to contract the plague. And but they saw these women with the [00:17:00] cats , who were, you know, not.
And so society’s eye, , a proper. lady.
And then they were vilified and deified as witches
Moses: They’re
j: of that. So they were haters, but
nick: Why are you still alive? And I’m dying.
j: It was like, how come these women, with all these cats and then cats have this kind of historical kind of connection to, spirituality and quote unquote power.
And then you see that and you just assign it. Once again, humans, oh, they must be using cats to do something weird and we don’t like ’em because they’re not dying. Let’s go get ’em. So it’s a, it know let history cats, and magic spirituality have really intertwined through history in interesting ways.
So
Vinny: yeah.
Moses: Cultism and all that.
j: And I was gonna say, one interesting things I had saw was that there are frequencies. I’m trying to notice infrasound at sub 20 Hertz vibrations and they can trigger anxiety, nauseous, and even aberrations in the
nick: oh, I’ve [00:18:00] actually heard about this.
’cause wasn’t there a government testing a weapon within the past decade that was supposed
j: testing weapons somewhere.
Moses: Yeah. On giant crowds of people too. It’s not just like one person. They’re like, yeah, you see those, like 50 people over
j: Yeah.
Moses: Take this and just shoot it in the general area over there and
nick: It’s supposed to be like one of those that just messes with your head
j: it does. Yeah. Sound. Yeah. And so like earthquakes cause these volcanic eruptions, avalanche, large waterfall. So this is like a natural.
Frequency that you would physiologically, respond to. And it was interesting is one of the things with cats, and people go, oh, cats they’re staring off into the distance. And they must be looking at some sort of spirit or ghost or entity, but some of it could just be a they pick up the smallest of movement in their environment and then b, it could just be some motor running your refrigerator motor at some frequency and it kicks on and it’s like, oh, what is
So you’re saying, you are saying
geo: that you’re hearing this instead of a ghost?
j: We assign our cat’s behavior. Or behavior in general to fit a narrative. And if the narrative that cats [00:19:00] have a special ability to see beyond,
geo: Oh, so you’re trying to explain the,
j: but maybe it’s just there.
This, there’s some little thing, you know, flutter in the corner that they’re looking at past you, everyone has a cat know what I’m talking about. The
Moses: Yeah, no they get geeked up for a second. They
j: That’s right. Yeah. And they just stare off past you and it’s like, what are you looking at?
And you look behind you and there’s nothing there but empty space. But some of it could just be they’re hearing some frequency somewhere that’s happening or some
Moses: it’s not per it’s perceivable like range of,
Vinny: I feel like if I’m listening to this podcast, my initial thought is these guys better do a follow up podcast. At a haunted location,
nick: I would totally do it. And I want to, we were
geo: We were,
Vinny: a legit,
Moses: be dumb for
geo: Yeah.
Vinny: has activity.
’cause that’s a
j: you
nick: And then we’ll bring out a Ouija board.
j: You stop with the,
Moses: see. That’s a lot of doubling down statistically of like,
Vinny: like, yeah, we, he’s like, yeah we didn’t believe in ghosts or Bos. Now we’re witches.
nick: know what, I’m totally d It’s
Moses: like, now I’m a [00:20:00] full blown occultist
nick: I would give into it. I would give into it all. If we can get some hard proof.
geo: So we could just stop here and then meet up again at the cemetery
j: we
nick: let’s pack up guys.
You guys aren’t opening the
Moses: where’s the nearest cemetery?
geo: Yeah.
j: Yeah. There we go. We go to cemetery. Yeah. And I’m getting all these things about why not, but maybe why, and I, my head goes to, oh, go ahead.
Moses: I was just gonna say that, our perception of just in general, not, like human perception, obviously we can read into like the electromagnetic spectrum and kinda, you know, pick things up with machines to help us out.
But I feel like even with that, there’s so much in existence that we cannot physically interact with most of existence, really. So it’s one of those where it’s hard it’s hard to rule anything out,
j: Yeah. No truth.
Moses: truth is definitely stranger than
j: No I think that’s right. And I was gonna, you know, for all the reasons you have ghosts, that. May not manifest with classically [00:21:00] explained science.
You know, they have masks, they can move objects, they emit light and sound. How are you doing all that? How many big Macs do they need to do that? But that’s a
nick: They need at
geo: Of course, they’re not eating Big Macs
j: How do,
nick: they’re eating souls.
j: But
Moses: I
nick: saw,
j: I was thinking about some of this and we’ve touched on this, but the, a couple things came to my mind. One was the multiverse that, that ghosts or the way we perceive ghosts, they’re just apparitions from another multi-dimension that we happen to be interacting with, right? So it crosses over for a second and we have this experience or keep having this experience.
’cause in this house or this place that was where their domain was at one point in time or in their universal line. That’s different than ours. Significantly different that we have that. So that was one idea had. The other one was that, and this, you know, we have some fans of the show.
Is the simulation hypothesis that ghosts are glitches in the matrix? They are unclean programs and I think [00:22:00] even the Matrix, they touched on that, the ghost programs and things, but we could have, that could be Is that evidence? So
geo: so this, do you believe in more than Ghost, I believe?
j: No. I,
Vinny: like,
Moses: How do you feel about, how do you feel about simulation theory
Vinny: is Lawrence Fishburne. They both really exist.
nick: Wait, they’re real.
Vinny: Yeah, I found that out last week.
nick: thought they were ai,
Vinny: was an interview and I was like, wait a minute. Can’t spell Matrix without ai. Also, side note, there’s a drinking game that we have, we currently have our door closed and we have a sign saying that we’re recording a podcast, and two people so far have pushed a door still.
So I will make note, and then anybody who’s listening, just take a shot. So then by the end of the podcast, you’ll just be too drunk to do anything.
j: They’ll see ghosts
Vinny: Yeah, probably. And
nick: they will become the ghost. Just start knocking things down. What was that?
j: Yeah. I’m not a believer in the simulation hypothesis, and we did an episode early in season two on this topic or into season one.
I can’t, yeah. But. And I’m
nick: this season.
j: a season? Yeah. Whew. [00:23:00] Season’s
it really? Yeah.
nick: Yeah. This we’re on season two guys. We’re,
j: we are, we’re in season two. But that was an idea , and the other thing would be the, this quantum and entanglement and and then you have waveform collapse, the observation effect where you have things exist in both states, so superposition, and then until you make the observation, you collapse down to that thing being gone.
So a ghost could be there. When you look at it, you’ve now made an observation and you’ve collapsed waveform form back. And then, you know, over time, you know, the, I have problems with that because it’s not.
predictable
or reproducible in some way. Like it’s changes for whoever’s watching.
Yeah. Yeah. And I’m not a quantum physicist, so maybe I’ll be like, no, you’re wrong. That’s, it can be proved. If we’re going to say it’s real then here’s some ideas to make it real.
geo: Has anyone done like a movie or a book about that type of concept? Like that’s what, ghosts
j: Our quantum
geo: yeah. I [00:24:00] don’t think so.
j: so. No. I feel
geo: I don’t know.
Vinny: Ghost
nick: I don’t know guys
Moses: Ghost Hood. The
Vinny: Ghost.
Idle hands? Seth Green and his best friend. No, I’m kidding. I’m
j: Oh, I was like, really? I was like, dude, dad on top of it. As
nick: as you said Seth Green, I was like, oh wait. He might actually be
j: you know, there was I have a little a list here, but Black Mirror, then they have the the one.
Moses: Had. Which episode? It
j: San L No, it’s the one where the woman, they kept going. They were living through the memory. Oh. And then they go and keep repeating and you could get digitally uploaded or it was like some sort of
Moses: Oh, he was trying to remember that girl’s face.
nick: Oh
Moses: Yeah.
j: I can’t, I’m trying to think of that one.
But yeah, that was one, I think that had something like that, but I don’t have the actual source of that. But no, most I mostly ghost movies. It’s supernatural, right? Supernatural. And usually it’s a revenge style. It know somebody’s wronged you, you’ve been wronged and then you are you’re coming back for vengeance , except Casper, he was one of the few,
nick: Actually, I, you know, let’s go with the conspiracy theory.
Is [00:25:00] Casper our killer?
Vinny: No. The real conspiracy, I’ve read it everywhere is Casper one ghost or was the other ghosts?
Part of his like,
j: oh, split personalities. Yeah. Have
Vinny: Have you heard about that?
j: No, I haven’t heard that.
Vinny: Yeah, me either. I just made it up right now.
nick: I did hear that. He might be Richie Rich.
Vinny: Wow.
j: I did see that.
That
Vinny: No, I did see
j: drawing. Yeah. The, yeah.
Vinny: think it was just a lazy
j: Yeah, we have a Casper, if people don’t know, it was a children’s story that was first created in 1930s, was unpublished and it became famous, the Casper, the Friendly Ghosts as a cartoon in 1945. And it was unique at the time because most ghosts were from the horror kind of lens of revenge and, you know, scaring the heck outta people.
But this was , a story I always like Casper, lonely,
not scary, and actually kind.
geo: the, and then they came out again in like the, was it like the seventies and eighties or
j: 95.
Vinny: then nineties. I was gonna say the movie. ’cause then because then it, it made no sense. ’cause then I saw final destination. I’m like, he’s a [00:26:00] ghost. Like how is he gonna die? He’s Casper and
j: And they made a backstory that he died of pneumonia, I think, or something like that. And he had like, it was like a kind of a dark layer,
Vinny: had the black
Moses: sick boy.
j: Yeah. Yeah.
Vinny: So it really, side note it’s slightly on topic though. Do you know when you go to like corn mason or like pumpkin patches? They have like those big cut out, those cut out wood things where just like a farmer and his wife and then the top parts cut in a curve and you just put your head on top and then you take a photo. I think there’ll be a really good gravestone idea. Like, I want
geo: Oh, so then like a photo op at the graves? Yeah.
Vinny: I don’t know, I’m just trying to think outside the grave, the
box.
geo: I like that.
Moses: Honestly, that’s a great idea. Yeah,
geo: I really actually like
Vinny: you know, that like, that meme of that guy who’s like sitting there like on crouch knees and he has, is a peace sign up probably that it and graveyard for him with the head cut on and you can, oh my
geo: oh my gosh I actually really like it.
Vinny: I die
geo: Yeah.
Vinny: or after
Moses: The living something fun to do, you know? Yeah. That’s for them [00:27:00] anyway, where if you know everybody
geo: right?
Moses: is dead
nick: I just wanna be tossed in the woods, you know, let the animals eat my dead body.
Let it do something good once,
Vinny: like did you see what Vinny did before? Did you see what he did for us before he died? He’s like a
j: A funny Jesus,
Vinny: Jesus’.
do anything except make a weird ass gravestone. And he left a dad joke on the other side of it. It’s like a double whammy. That’s how I’m gonna leave the earth. You’re
nick: you’re not gonna come back as a ghost?
Vinny: I might.
nick: You should find some
Vinny: I just said somebody has to bring out a
Moses: you should find it.
Vinny: Ouija board. That’s the only way it can come out is if it’s a Barbie licensed Ouija board.
geo: I got
j: I got you.
Vinny: Then I’m gonna come
j: It’s ready to go.
Vinny: to go and I’m gonna whisper the
j: think. Vinny, are you
geo: gonna start collecting Ouija boards.
Vinny: So you see, you’re like, I did the Barbie Ouija board and like, I feel like Vinny’s voice is whispering. That Matchbox 20 push song in my ears, I’m sleeping.
Moses: Crossover of ghosts with dreams and weird encounters [00:28:00] actually even post, right? Because you have the whole phenomenon of like, sleep paralysis and the hallucination. But what’s fascinating to me is that like across the world the hallucinations are, it’s usually like a set
nick: the shadow man. It’s
Moses: usually a shadow man. Or like somebody, like some somebody in your bed or like on top of you,
geo: Yeah.
Moses: which is weird. Like, why are they on top of you? Why are they on your chest?
j: That was a
nick: Isn’t
Moses: ’em, get em off.
nick: the feeling of not being able to get up
j: Yeah. So you’re
nick: your body, oh, you got the science stuff
j: I mean I was gonna, you go, you could do it.
Moses: He’s got the, he’s got the colloquial speak version.
nick: got you.
j: you’re in that a transition of conscious states and so your body as you go to sleep, your respiration, your heart rate, everything slows your muscles. You’re in this, you’re in this state of sleep and
and
become aware.
While you’re in this state,
nick: aren’t you also in between REM cycles too?
j: Yeah, you, I don’t the exact state of where you’re Yeah. You’re in a more deeper sleep state. [00:29:00] And as you become aware. You also are aware that your respiration rate has been suppressed, your heart rate, your muscles you’re pretty much para paralyzed, yet you’re aware of your surroundings and now your mind has to make sense of that, right?
So you can imagine that you’re gonna see all sorts of things ’cause you’re now in this very trapped, confined state. And you, I think that’s part of this. And then you have other myths on top of that, once again to the, like the cats and sucking your soul. And that’s been, I think you, I’m trying to think of a movie where the cat will sit on your chest and things sit on your chest to have access to your mouth, to pull your soul, your spirit out of you.
And
Vinny: I’m so pissing my cat right now. I let her do that all the time.
j: That was thought what they were doing. And and then like having kids and stuff, it’s like, don’t have, because cats will. Rest on your chest and, I think it’s just comforting for them ’cause they fill your heartbeat. Your breathing rate and things
geo: So really the, so really this is the cat [00:30:00] episode?
j: Oh no, I don’t wanna, I’m not deifying cats, like, you know, I love cats. We have a cat, Ivan. He is a good
geo: I know. I love cats.
j: So I
but you do have cats in this, they’re used a lot in this kind of thing and I don’t, they get, you know, wanna de deify them and say, you know, it’s just they’ve got a lot, they got a lot of pressure put on ’em because they’re,
Vinny: Yeah.
Don’t say that too loud. She’s right there. Yeah.
Yeah.
No, but like, so with Ghost, I also curious to know, like, do you believe in the theory of reincarnation,
nick: No.
Vinny: like where you pass away and instead of becoming a ghost, it’s almost like you come back with No with no knowledge of your past life. And it’s almost like a reset because like, I’ve also heard. Theories like that. And then it also ties into the weird deja vu moments. ’cause like nobody can explain deja vu and why you have them, or why everything feels certainly familiar or you feel like you’ve done something before. Like it’s crazy that we’re in 2025 and that’s something that still can’t be.
nick: so that wouldn’t be reincarnation then?
Vinny: No. But I’m[00:31:00]
nick: that would be
Vinny: would wouldn’t that
j: different ideas there.
Vinny: But I’m saying that deja vu. I’ve also heard theories that like, it could be something from your past life being triggered as to why something feels familiar.
nick: I did hear something about this. It’s what was it? It was something about.
Deja vu is your body reliving it as if you’ve died already?
Vinny: That’s
I’m saying. Like it’s, it could
nick: just your brain doing that whole, your life flashes before your eyes, shit. Yeah.
Moses: But just for like the mini second. Yeah. Not the full, it’s not the full blown joint.
Vinny: When I
that, I was like, in my mind I was like, man I want that to be real so bad.
’cause it gives more answers to things that aren’t answered, you know? ’cause I’ve always wondered about dejavu and like, is it like past life or whatever it is. ’cause Yeah, at this point I’ve watched enough horror movies where I’m open to the possibility of almost anything, you know, as far as like supernatural
goes,
j: and
And I think you’re, once again, we go back to our brains, to human brain [00:32:00] and finding patterns and things that, people have white noise, what is the Spirit radio?
Spirit boxes. Yep. That does white. And you hear it’s just white noise. And we hear voices. We make things. People play the records backwards. And I hear so, our brains are designed per a, to keep us alive, you had to find patterns really fast. And then identify patterns that might be like something else, a past situation.
So some of these deja vu situations could be that the situation is close enough. And your brain is actually just processing and trying to lower your anxiety somewhat to go, Hey, this has already happened. Or prepare you if it’s some bad situation you’re going into. So you have this moment where your brain is actually just analyzing its environment.
It’s and saying what makes sense. Oh, this is like, I felt I’ve been here before. Okay, this isn’t so bad. Or I’ve been here before and I really need to leave
Moses: Yeah.
j: ’cause
it, it didn’t turn out so well.
Vinny: That’s why you gotta talk to those four or 5-year-old musical prodigies who are like four years old and they’re playing [00:33:00] guitar like they’re fucking Jimi Hendrix. I’m like okay. Somebody sacrificed their, one of their children for
j: People that are like, I think we have neuro a neural spectrum and we, you know, people that have like autism and we think about, we identify that, and then you have like this savants that come in and usually they’re at some extreme in, but we don’t, you know, identifying that al early in some skillset that is talented.
We, we all, once again, put that in context with ourselves and go, man, that’s super impressive. But they could be somewhere on that scale. We usually see math, savants or, artistic, but it could be, they play guitar. They just can hear music.
They see it
Moses: different perfect pitch and
j: play Right. And they just can play that. And they see the instrument, you playing it, and then mimic it and then add their own creativity to it and can go. But they’re still social. They still have, so yeah it’s interesting what our brains can do.
So yes,
nick: Yeah. Guys, I think they’re a ghost in
j: Nico Ghost is throwing things now it’s upset. It’s like, you’re gonna believe Joe, you’re gonna believe, yeah.
Vinny: Maybe it’s just me wanting believe it’s a ghost because I’m like, it has to be somebody reincarnated.
’cause [00:34:00] when I was four, I was. Learning how to
j: and see reincarnation is interesting because I, and you asked that question.
Vinny: perfection
nick: wait.
Vinny: all. I’m just trying
j: trying to move it along here.
Vinny: know how slow in life I was.
nick: I was like,
j: Move it along.
nick: over this. I,
j: I’m just gonna
nick: aren’t you four years old? Learning
j: like, I was a grown man before I learned how to wipe No,
nick: I didn’t stop peeing the bed till I 23
j: 16
Vinny: I realized I didn’t have to wear a diaper.
Moses: I’m crying.
j: I got reincarnate. No. But yeah, reincarnation was re trusting me because I always thought, and in my own head, and this is I haven’t looked this up, I haven’t thought about this in a while, but somewhat are conservation of DNA and you go from bacteria, through human octopuses, whatever you think the intelligent kind of life forms are.
We share our DNA like humans to banana. I think we’re 50%. There’s a lot of, mechanistic systems, which are the same, you know, and are the way our proteins are made the genetic code bananas. Yeah.
Vinny: You like, I wanna know more about this,
j: [00:35:00] 50% our genetic.
nick: is that where bananas and pajamas comes
j: No. Our genetic code, like the instructions of life, we share about 50% of those instructions with a banana.
And some of that’s just cellular function, like how proteins are made ribosomes, they make proteins or your mitochondria proteins. Those are all shared, those are historical. Those haven’t changed that much through time. So those are just a basis of cellular life. So you share a lot of the same cellular kind of functionality at the cellular level with a banana.
And as you go, you get higher. You have muscles, you have you know, your neurobiology is different than a banana. If it has neurobiology. We have different systems that then will separate. They have to do something different in their life. You do something different in yours. But if you think through that with reincarnation, one could easily go, oh, you could you, it’s not that different, right?
You, it’s a loss of function or gain of genetic code and information and how that is processed and how is that moved. And then you get into how is memory stored? How are these things, is memory stored by the architecture of our brain [00:36:00] and how it’s wired? And so does some of that base memory carry over? If you’re thinking about reincarnation at the genetic kind of molecular level,
Moses: Cellular memory.
j: Cellular memory, right? So could you have that, could that persist in your code? You know, like most, like from biology, most of our, you know, there, there are sequences that get in our DNA code that get turned on and turned
nick: Is the cloud real? The cloud,
Vinny: yeah. I have a bunch of my pictures on ’em right now.
j: cloud
nick: like, is there, is if there’s reincarnation, is there like a person
j: how do we get to the cloud?
geo: A person cloud.
nick: ’cause I was just thinking, so
j: So you mean like, is there some if they, if
nick: if reincarnation was real and right. Yeah. Then there’s just a cloud of uploaded people or
j: Or your genetic because your genetic, yeah.
Coding is different. I think you, if you had just over time all the combinations that could happen in humanity, I don’t think we’ve recycled yet. So you could go,
Vinny: I mean we, we do have a lot of [00:37:00] space sloughs. Huh? You get it. Space
Moses: But I think that speaks to the deja vu thing too. I think that’s, I feel like, just like we know over time, adaptations come from lived exp experience, the survival of those who made it through things and how experiences are even like trauma can be passed down like to the next generation.
Epigenetics, all that kind, how far that goes. So maybe we’re like having experiences that aren’t literally, it’s not even your experience. This is something that happened that could have happened to your generation, your dad, your grandfather. This could have been like 10 generations back. You don’t even know who those people are.
But
j: comment on that epi epigenetics. So that’s his kind of control of our genes and how they’re turned on and turned off at some level. And really interesting and fascinatingly, is that all your epigenetic markering or most of it comes from the mother, right?
Because you gotta think, you gotta think that the DNA payload and we’re getting a little reproductive volume away from ghosts but sperm really is just, it’s just full [00:38:00] of mitochondria. So energy to swim to the egg and deliver your half of the genetic. Input. And so there’s not a lot of extra room.
You can’t carry around a lot of extra proteins or information. It’s just a genetic code. Whereas the mother provides the egg, which then would have all of this kind of other information embedded in there. All of their imprinting, all of their kind of genetic controller epigenetic control is imparted on that load.
So when that 50% comes in, then the maternal side then imprints on. And that’s why when they do kind of anything mitochondrial kind of ancestry thing that did get a pur, it usually go to the mitochondria, which is maternal passed. So all your mitochondria. Have come from your mother ’cause you’ve, you know, the sperm has burnt it all out.
And so when you get there, that’s, the mother has provided all this kind of generational history in. So usually you follow lines through the mother’s, pedigree and in human history that people, we’ve had some concept of that because, like slavery.
Then when they made all [00:39:00] the changes, it was like, your your freedom state comes from your mom, right? It’s like passed through your mom. You look at other cultures that it is always through the maternal side that you get your cultural kind of background. And so at some level it’s really interesting and fascinating that, generational things are usually passed that way and learned genetic memory. We talked about this on the the swarm episode and crows they have, they actually will pass down memory faces. So
nick: they pass down
j: has identified they don’t like you or they like you. Then their progeny will also carry that on and have the same hatred for you.
So if you go out and you upset crows or mag pies or jays, I think they will remember and keep coming to, get you the
Vinny: It
Moses: take out the whole bloodline is
j: that’s
Vinny: If that’s the case, like my mom’s Puerto Rican, so I’m probably more of like a plantain banana.[00:40:00]
j: Yes. There it is. can’t
nick: I think we just did the show. I think we’re,
j: it.
geo: I just have no idea how this relates to Ghost, but
j: yeah.
geo: If crows can remember and like hold a grudge. I know, but I was just thinking about that. And then humans. We aren’t born, like, you get all that from your parents or from culture whether to hate someone or to, but you don’t just automatically see someone and know whether you should hate, how does that work with crows and not humans?
j: Yeah
geo: good
Vinny: ’cause crows don’t wear like douchey t-shirts or anything, you know, like we, we at least get to see somebody wearing a really dumb outfit and we’re like, I hate that guy. Like, crows are all the same. Like, how do you
geo: yeah,
j: Yeah. I dunno.
geo: I don’t know. Anyway,
j: go. But no. Yeah, that’s, it’s a fascinating thing. You’re right. There’s a lot about brain chemistry and human brain, like Yeah, I think we are you, it came up earlier that there’s a lot we don’t know that’s even [00:41:00] about ourselves and how our brains work to that level, or crow’s brain, which is smaller and, you know, potentially you could understand it better, but Yeah, no, they’re, it’s sophisticated and they show intelligence.
So that is a sign of intelligence, but it’s a generational, and I will say that probably there are generational traumas that get passed
There is,
and you go in humans and we just don’t, we don’t think about it because then it’s taught also. But you have some innate kind of, you know, especially a person of color, you have some innate.
Fear is some somewhat, it’s like, and you, your parents try to teach that out of you. But then also the wink, wink, nod, like, you know, oh, okay, don’t do this that, but you may not know why you’re not supposed to do this or go to this neighborhood or hang out there. But you just know to trust that and go, you know what, you know until you don’t, until you’re like, I’m gonna go find out.
And then you find out
nick: Isn’t there like the stories that get passed down, like don’t whistle at night. You
j: Yeah. It’s just
nick: stories that get taught down and you know, you forget where it all came from.[00:42:00]
j: Yeah. Yeah. They go in there and the ghost stories, tie it all back together, that we have a lot of those also.
Vinny: Why
nick: are there no recent ghosts? All the ghosts seem to be like at least a hundred plus years old.
geo: Are you talking about like in stories and stuff or what do you
Moses: and lore. Like even in real life, like legends of
nick: Yeah. I want a hipster ghost around here. Like I just want it to annoy
Vinny: Those are hard. You gotta leave PBRs out.
j: Yeah, that’s right.
Vinny: Like Santa.
nick: I want someone to be like, man, your music taste sucks. And I’ll be like, yeah, it probably does.
Vinny: makes it easier for us to track regular ghosts. ’cause now that we know that you just gotta like do really ancient shit, you gotta put on like, I don’t know, Charlie Chaplin movies or something for these old ass crusty ghosts to come
nick: But like, it,
Vinny: you
j: yeah.
nick: wouldn’t it make sense that they’re, they would be ghosts now, like
Vinny: seen John Wick?
j: Yeah. They go, yeah. Hey, new
Vinny: new ghosts.
j: that’s, I was gonna say,
nick: I want a new
Vinny: Ghost [00:43:00] revolution
j: From a mo like movies. Let’s go there because some, and it touches on the kind of ghosts.
Vinny: Okay. That’s a ghost right there. That’s
geo: Please clarify. Please clarify.
Vinny: his weird. Siri
Moses: The government was listening.
Vinny: on
j: started jumping in. But I was gonna say one of my favorite probably ghost adjacent movies is Event Horizon. And it touches on that multiverse, like you have the space time. I think George, you had asked if there’s any movies, but that’s one that that I think I’m gonna, I enjoy a lot, man.
That’s just a great movie. But it has that ghost haunted feeling and it’s actually filmed, if you watch it the color of the tint of that movie is almost sickening. You feel anxious through that whole movie as they get going and the descent into madness and this multidimensional ghost and these voices that he’s hearing and just sabotaging the ship and killing people.
No, it’s a barium.
Vinny: could
nick: ghosts be
j: a.
a,
nick: a,
Vinny: Hipsters
nick: if [00:44:00] seeing ghosts, could it be associated with schizophrenia or other mental disorders? Yeah.
j: Yeah. I, yes. I think any, like, tampering with the mind, be it degenerative kind of disorder, a disease like schizophrenia or drug induced, I
Vinny: ’cause people, if they have
Moses: Yeah. Take some psychedelics. You will see
nick: something exactly like it’s all.
j: all, and it’s how you perceive it. So I think if you’re hallucinating or you’re having that and how you perceive what you’re hallucinating of becomes then a. That could become a ghost, that could become a thing if you’re anxious and hyped up already and you hear like, you know, with the cat in the door earlier you didn’t, your brain is already primed and you’re just gonna process that.
Not even rationally, none of us thought, I didn’t think, oh, that’s a cat. Or that’s somebody in a know back in the back room doing something. We were primed to talk about ghosts and graveyards then. Oh, we heard creaky noise or something. Drops in the corner. Your brain my brain, your brain will go right away to, oh, that, that must be, that, that proves it right there.
That’s it. That’s the proof. We got it on tape [00:45:00] and then you spiral on control from there. And then you have the ghost hunters come in with the E em f tools or they’re low frequency kind of recorders.
nick: Joe, should we become ghost hunters?
Moses: I think he’s, I think he’s saying that they’re, that they’ve fallen into delusion. Yeah.
j: That’s They’re gonna come after me now.
geo: Alright.
nick: yes, you come after me for that. I’m fine.
Moses: Okay. I have one I read something on Instagram recently that I thought was interesting, somewhat poignant to the conversation. I feel like it was back to the dream, you know, like the sleep paralysis or even in rem sleep, right? When you’re actually dreaming and encounter weird stuff.
And then in association, particularly with lucid dreaming, so people that, that can lucid dream, they said that and again, this is just like, you know, internet theories. Jargon, but they’re like, yeah, if you’re lucid dreaming, maybe don’t tell the dream entities people that are around you, that they are not real because the spiral of, you know, it could, you could trigger.
You know, some glitches in the dream and then you end up [00:46:00] in a nightmare because of how that feed loop act. I did that once. I actually did that once prior to reading that, but it didn’t go that way.
j: You told the dream people that they were dream
Moses: it was one person. It was a friend of mine. It was Daniel.
geo: But
Moses: his response was funny. ‘ cause he told me he al he was like, yeah, I know. So that was weird.
j: Yeah. You didn’t have to go through a whole sixth sense kind of
Moses: thing. No. He was like, oh yeah, I know. I was like, that’s weird. And then I told him about that and he was like you know, the archetype of Daniels the dream interpreter, so that makes sense.
I was like oh shit.
Vinny: shit. I, there has to be one.
I, I wanted to be like Tam my whole life. I’ve just been talking shit to every person in my dream saying, you’re fake ass motherfucker. I’m real. You aren’t
j: I’m not real.
Vinny: real. It’s like, that’s why my life is in shambles.
j: could be like, it could be like inception, right? ’cause you had the inception where they got buried in a dream and at the end you don’t know if he’s stuck in a dream or if he’s back in.
I
Moses: a dream like that where it was like several in one, like where you woke up and you’re you, how do you even fall asleep in a dream? That’s [00:47:00] the craziest part.
j: I suffer from sleep paralysis. So I’ve had that happen to me a few times. And usually it’s like where I am pushing. I’m not getting good sleep. I’m like really burning a wick at both ends, maybe a few hours.
I don’t sleep that many hours a night anyway. But usually this is like, I’m physically working, like we were doing renovation on the house, so I’m up, I go to bed at one in the morning, wake back up at, four to do something to start planning. And then all of a sudden I will get in a cycle where I then have sleep paralysis episodes.
And it is creepy because if it’s so bad, like if I push it too long and I don’t really respect the start, you know, you get a warning, like you’re gonna be,
Vinny: I’ll say, what does a warning feel like?
Like when you know that you’re getting close to that point?
j: Yeah. Usually it’s your dreams the way you feel.
You might have an episode but it’s not as severe, like where you, you feel it, but then you snap out of it. And the worst though was, yeah, I had this where I went and it was like sleep paralysis, inside of sleep paralysis. So you’re in sleep paralysis, you can’t move, you’re freaking out, you’re seeing things and then you feel yourself wake [00:48:00] up out of it.
But really then that’s just another cycle of sleep paralysis. And it was like, oh, I gotta go to bed, like at 6:00 PM and like, sleep or like, you know,
nick: So was yours ever like stress induced or No,
j: not really.
A lot of it was just like I said, burning a wick at both ends.
Just poor sleep habits where I am just, I’m just probably exhausted mentally. And then that just triggers this whole cycle. So the first, when it happened the first time I was in grad school, and it could have been stress induced, like, you’re getting ready for things and you’re
nick: I feel like
j: You’re quantifying exams, things like that.
nick: It’s one of those things that ends up Yeah, having like a stress induced,
Moses: Yeah,
j: Yeah. Yeah. You’re anxious. But Yeah, I was, I didn’t walk.
a walk?
No, not that I know of.
Moses: Good. Good. That’s that, that, that freaks me out. Like I feel like the potential for somebody to like, get hurt doing
Vinny: doing that. Yeah. It’s not as fun as stepbrothers. Like, I always think of stepbrothers when I think of people sleepwalking.
I don’t know, taking the pillow cushions and putting ’em in the stove. But like, I’m just thinking like, man, that would really f like that would fuck me up if I woke up and I was like
j: in
Vinny: different state and I realized that I was [00:49:00] sleepwalking like it.
j: There’s been murder cases like that
Moses: dang, somebody killed someone like that.
j: Yeah. And then they went somewhere killed, someone came back. It’s like a total I don’t have it. I didn’t have it for exotic
Moses: Can we, how do you prove that though?
j: go. Yeah. But there’s a bunch of, I think there’s a couple
was sleeping.
Vinny: there’s a guy who’s reading that right now.
j: right.
nick: you’re talking abouts
j: right.
Vinny: guy right now who’s reading that and he’s gonna cheat on his girlfriend and say, I was asleep.
j: I think the
nick: I dunno what you’re talking
j: wife. I think it was like, it was, yeah. They killed her wife. Then they wake up somewhere and it’s like, oh, you killed this
nick: person. Look at the video of me. Look
Moses: Oh, by the way, you totally murdered that lady
j: That’s
Vinny: at some point, like with situations like that, if the person’s like saying I was sleepwalking, and they genuinely were, how do you fucking prove, like, do you have somebody do a lie
j: Yeah, no, it’s like, it’s a total, yeah. I think one person got off and one person got convicted.
I I would’ve to look it up, but there’s a few documented cases and similarly drove, but we, I was gonna say, we just watched that show. We were just talking about it. The one where the doppelganger, killed somebody and then he was doing the lecture and then they went The
the
geo: outsider. [00:50:00] I
j: The
nick: started that
geo: Oh, it’s so good. It’s so good. It’s a series on it’s a series on HBO and it came out like, what, like maybe five, five years or more
j: years ago. Yeah. I
geo: I think it’s based on Stephen King. It’s really good
Vinny: think
that like, you people can be in that sleepwalk like state and Yeah.
geo: Yeah. I don’t,
Vinny: life and do
geo: I just don’t buy
Vinny: Like I, I
geo: I don’t buy it.
Vinny: doing something like, I’m gonna get up and I’m gonna leave and I’m gonna go kill some person and then I’m gonna come back home and then lay back
j: drive your car, go there,
Vinny: I don’t buy, I don’t buy it.
nick: having a full on conversation with someone
Vinny: Yeah. Yeah.
nick: Yeah, then I go back to bed and what they’ll bring it up hours later when we wake up and they’re like, what are you talking about? I don’t know what you’re talking. Like it’s a whole on conversation that I just don’t have any memory of.
Vinny: Hey guys, take a take shot number three. ’cause that kid just tried to push the door open while he’s
nick: his face is leaning against
Vinny: against
Moses: I know. He, it’s funny [00:51:00] how close his forehead is to the sign that says, we’re open at one 30,
Vinny: right? No, but
j: We’re recording here.
nick: any of you used watch the movie Dream Scenario with Nick Cage?
Moses: Yes. Yes. That 8 24 movie. It’s so
Vinny: was in everybody’s dreams.
j: Yeah. Oh wow.
nick: that one was a really weird,
j: like a ghost of dreams. Really?
Vinny: Yeah. And some people were scared of him.
Some people were like,
nick: but he wasn’t doing
Vinny: love with him, but he wasn’t doing anything. I see.
j: see.
nick: Was just a boring person
Moses: then they started having nightmares and then they’re all blaming him. He’s like, I literally didn’t do any like, that’s like
nick: like, what did you do?
Vinny: I also like this whole conversation has made me even want to go back and rewatch the sixth sense.
j: Yes. Yep.
Vinny: Really good.
j: Really
Moses: up Bruce Wallace, wake up.
j: dead people. But I was gonna I wanted to touch on some traditions. We talk about ghosts and things, but there are a lot of cultures. So one that I found I didn’t realize was the Tibetan sky burials, Tibetan sky burials. And it’s a practice where the human corps is placed on a mountaintop to decompose, while exposed to the elements, or to be eaten by [00:52:00] scavenging animals like vultures
Moses: and
j: and they come. And so I was like, that’s really fascinating the way, ’cause Western culture, you, you get buried in like, casket. You’re really like, isolated from the natural world when you really should be, you know, reunited with it in that way.
And so I thought that was an interesting one. And then the other culture that is is Dia de los Muertos.
Where and that’s also ghosts are involved there. The movie Coco, I believe
geo: And that goes back to what Nick was saying, that you embrace this and you welcome these spirits and then you celebrate
nick: Yeah. It’s very different in each culture,
Moses: Yeah.
Vinny: that’s why
nick: why it’s like,
geo: I, that seems so much more healthy.
nick: Yeah. And that’s why I think it’s very much a mental thing where it’s again, why I don’t believe in ghosts, but it’s a very psychological event
Vinny: event
nick: where it’s gonna be very personal to you and it’s gonna be very much in your own head.
But it’s not to just say, oh, this isn’t a thing. But [00:53:00] it is a thing too, that person,
geo: I think. And that the whole big thing is as long as someone remembers you, you haven’t like the whole thing about like, Coco, like I think that’s so true. Like just keeping those memories. And then once those memories are gone,
nick: I
geo: is that like,
nick: trust me to remember them
j: that is
geo: I know that is true. Memory remembered. I don’t have the best memory.
j: is that part of the ghosts, you know, kind of mythology is being remembered. And so if you haunt or if you, if you’re not getting revenged, ’cause we talked about that, but if, you know, other type of ghosts are you really kinda like a Casper, you’re just lonely.
You
geo: forget about me
j: in this realm. Like, you know, hey I was somebody of, you know, note maybe, I
Vinny: or like, do ghosts have the option to stay and be petty? You know what I mean? Like,
geo: Like,
Vinny: is that an option?
j: Yeah.
Vinny: I just want to hang out by fucking old lady Ruth’s house and I just want to fucking take a finger and just like open one of the cabinets once a day and [00:54:00] make her paranoid for us.
Or you know, like,
j: or think about it and go, oh, you know, you know, da, I used to be here and, you know,
Moses: used to do
j: doing that, right? That’s just like that. So is it a way to remember,
Vinny: I would troll people if, like, if
if
I had the option to go to heaven or hell or stay on earth and troll people,
j: just,
Vinny: I would stay and troll people because that’s heaven to me.
j: right? What if you’re misremembered though? What if you’re like there and Moses like, oh, that’s that’s my boy Johnny that’s doing that, and not Vinny, will you go harder? You’d be like, you know, you’re gonna, I’m gonna prove to you it’s
geo: That’s why you need to, that’s why you need to get out the Ouija board. Come on.
nick: Thank you.
j: Who’s here? Is this who’s Mo’s
Vinny: you’re like, who’s leaving these empty inhalers around here?
It can’t be
j: Who’s leaving all the cabinet
nick: Wasn’t that what Houdini and his wife did? Like, they had
geo: they had seances. And Houdini spent a lot of time like trying to debunk. Did debunk. Yeah. And they’d do these seances and stuff, and he’d go and like
nick: this [00:55:00] is what this is.
j: Find like ghosts. Like
geo: like, yeah. Show it all the little
j: he’d go find a Whoopi Goldbergs of the world and proved that they were.
frauds,
which he was not in a movie,
nick: he was the original
Vinny: Yes. He
nick: the original Ghostbusters,
Vinny: He
he had eyebrows. We’ll be
be clear.
anyway.
geo: Okay. So
Vinny: sorry.
j: yeah.
geo: should we talk about? What’s a favorite ghost?
What’s a favorite?
j: close to the end here, so Yeah. What’s our,
Vinny: I’m curious to know with like graveyards though, I feel like we didn’t go as
nick: we did not
Vinny: we?
geo: Graveyards. We got
Vinny: like
j: Graveyards are in Yeah, we’re at the end in a graveyard.
Started us off, but
Vinny: it would be hard to dismiss that there’s something like when you go to a cemetery,
We talk about movies where things are haunted because they’re paved over it.
geo: When nothing’s
Vinny: paved over and it’s just bare at cemetery, there has to be like, I don’t know that, that’s the kind of thing where.
People who are sensitive to those things will tell you with no hesitation. Like my aunt was who [00:56:00] had passed would see things. And my mom I’ve been in the car with her where she would see a ghost, like literally while we’re driving. She’d like, did you see that person? I remember there was one time where we were driving on 95th and she said she saw, she’s like, is that person like, isn’t he scared that the cord’s gonna get messed up?
And I thought my mom was like, hallucinating. I was like, what are you talking about? She’s like, that guy back there. I was like, what guy? She’s like, he was holding a, like a megaphone with a cord and he was holding up a sign. I was like, mom,
j: there was nobody there.
Vinny: Just looking.
I looked back and she’s like, oh no, I think I saw a ghost. So like I, things like that where I’m like, there’s something there that maybe not everybody can see, but I think when you go to a graveyard, there’s, there goes number four.
See
Moses: let’s see if they go back to back and make it five, no
Vinny: it would be hard to believe that there isn’t anything, you know, like when the physical bodies are six feet under.
geo: What? And
Vinny: and it
geo: there’s so many
Vinny: bodies
geo: there’s so many there. And I think also maybe just the feeling of grief and people’s, it’s almost like a [00:57:00] tangible thing
nick: There’s a
Moses: A
geo: a place like that, you know,
Moses: been historically haunted, like where there’s a lot of, usually that’s what it’s associated with.
Like haunted locations is tragedy or a lot of negative emotions or just negativity in general. Like, you know, there’s a lot of
nick: if you didn’t know that place was like tragedy happened there, would you still have that
Vinny: Yeah. ’cause
Moses: It’s happened to some people and then they figured it out after the fact.
Vinny: Like,
j: like what
Vinny: Amityville horror is like a perfect example where there a family. And they moved into a home that had history.
nick: that all bullshit?
Vinny: Depends
nick: that was the Warrens shit and the Warrens were
geo: think
Vinny: the warrants were called,
nick: and
geo: Yeah, no, there were actual people and they actually had these accounts. I’m not saying that’s for sure true, but I actually my ex-brother-in-law was, knew one of the people that lived there.
Vinny: Yeah.
nick: I feel like [00:58:00] that stuff all ended up coming out after the fact. And they’re like, oh, we’re gonna start leaning into this as I push my,
j: but also, I know, what are you doing?
Vinny: we mentioned earlier, Poltergeist is another example of that, right? The family that moved into the home and it was right
j: On top of the native graveyard, a burial grounds.
Vinny: I feel like
I don’t
j: But that was a, that thing of respect, right? That respect wasn’t given to this burial site. And then it was also, you know, consumerism and all that layer, there was some other messages there, but you’re right, the ghost there, they were haunting because they wanted they wanted revenge, but they also.
Took a liking to the carolann, you know? She could give them something, like she could, her innocence could guide them into, or back from the, this kind of spiritual plane. And they were using that also, but, so you had a mix little message in there of what they were doing. And then it was like, oh, we’re, you shouldn’t have, paved over this, ancient burial site.
Because the spirit that was there wasn’t friendly, obviously. So it wasn’t even like, you know, we want, [00:59:00] we went out or you’ve done something wrong. It was like, now I’m gonna, let’s really torture you.
Vinny: But
yeah, there’s so many interesting angles to like, look at it from, especially when you start including actual stories and experiences that people have actually gone through, you know, outside of like. Your life. ’cause it’s like, obviously depends on what you’re around and what you expose yourself to. But I don’t know, there’s enough weird shit going on in the world where I’m like, I wouldn’t be surprised at this point, you know?
j: Yeah. So what’s so they get to George’s question. Favorite ghost
Vinny: Ghost
Moses: Favorite? Favorite graveyard?
j: Your favorite graveyard? No. What’s your favorite ghost? What’s your favorite ghost movie? Let’s do that.
nick: For me, I think it would be between Insidious and Talk to me. Like those two are both on the newer side, but I feel like their ghost stories just linger a little bit longer than most,
Moses: That’s fact.
Yeah. Talk to me slapped.
nick: Especially for it being like a younger audience, like, or cast. I was so happy with [01:00:00] how
Moses: I think that’s what helped with it. ’cause if it didn’t have the younger cast, it wouldn’t have hit the same because it was, it is one of those where it’s the I guess like you said, irreverence, like the young crowd being like, yeah, like on paper, should we not be doing whatever we’re doing?
We’re getting TikTok views.
j: right. Yeah.
Moses: We’re getting clout with our friends at, you know, in the, in their, you know, community space. So it’s like,
nick: so what?
Moses: What will the kids Gen Z?
nick: for Yeah. Which I feel like this is like the first Gen Z horror film that was
j: good.
nick: You know, yeah.
geo: So that was a newer ghost?
j: Newer
geo: Or is
j: multiple.
Moses: It’s a, it’s like a hand that gives you access to the,
j: yeah.
Vinny: said it’s not the hips or ghost that you were
j: No. Yeah. The
nick: That, that’ll come later.
Vinny: I lovely Bones.
j: Ali Bones.
nick: Oh yeah,
j: Yeah. That
Vinny: one was a really cool one where.
Basically the ghost of the girl helps dude figure out her murder.
Yeah, who
Yeah. I read that book. Yeah, that was really good actually.
Moses: Phone.
nick: Black phone. I [01:01:00] forgot about how good that
Vinny: dude, black phone two is gonna be insane. Have you seen the trailer?
nick: No, I don’t watch trailers.
geo: like
Vinny: nightmare on Elm Street ish. Like it’s insane.
And it’s almost like sleep paralysis where like
She’s
knocked out.
But
the things that are happening in her dream are being reflected to the people who are seeing her
nick: I’m gonna change mine to sinister actually.
Vinny: Sinister. You can’t change yours.
Moses: Was more Ethan Hawk.
Vinny: it.
nick: That’s why I was like, wait, Ethan Hawk sinister because that was a
j: a
Vinny: fantastic
j: Yep,
Vinny: Georgia.
I ghost is
j: Ghost.
Vinny: That was my, that was
j: I
geo: did like Ghost a lot and I did like six Sense. Yeah. That’s just
j: Those are classic Poltergeist.
geo: You remember that one? Devil’s Backbone.
j: Oh, devil’s Backbone. Yeah. That’s, that one’s really good. Yeah. That’s like, session nine.
geo: Oh, session nine. Yeah.
j: That was a really good one also where they had the ghosts that insane asylum that were, they were removing the asbestos from. So that was a good one.
Vinny: 13 ghosts.
I
j: No one mentioned Ghostbusters.[01:02:00]
Vinny: Oh, yeah. Or ghost ship.
nick: I brought up Ghostbusters.
j: You got a candy, man. I’m rocking
Moses: Can Candyman. I guess that counts, right?
j: yeah. So what’s your
geo: favorite?
j: I Event Horizon. I think you I just, I’m gonna go with that. I mentioned it. I brought it up, but it’s really it’s a little off. It’s not, it wasn’t built as a ghost story, but when you watch it, it really is a ghost story in space. Like, you’re not, there’s not many of those where you have that.
nick: I think we solved ghosts. We solved, we didn’t touch,
Vinny: think, I don’t think
j: dunno, that’s what we thought.
Moses: Bachelor’s Grove is my favorite graveyard.
j: Yeah. That’s, yeah, that we’ve heard that before. Bill Heller, which one talks about the Bachelor’s Grove?
nick: yeah, that’s where I want to go. You want to
geo: that’s where we were gonna go do,
Moses: down to go back.
nick: Yeah. We’ll bring in a spirit box and
Moses: I don’t know about no boxes. Come
geo: on.
j: We gotta brainstorm with us. Bring our own
geo: the Ouija board in. She’s gonna have
nick: it on my chest.
geo: What?
Vinny: the planchette Yep. planchette necklace is crazy.
j: His shirt is really a Ouija
Moses: Yeah. I’m just worried about us getting kicked out of there. You gotta go [01:03:00] during the day. If you go at night. They like, there’s cops over there during
j: Oh, really? Yeah. I can imagine.
Moses: Oh. ’cause people go over there
geo: Maybe we could do it like outside of October.
j: Yeah. Maybe we can do it official. We can just
Vinny: Joliet, the old Joliet haunted prison.
j: Oh, that would be cool.
Vinny: A podcast?
j: Yeah.
Moses: See then you ain’t gotta worry about anybody bothering you, you know?
j: one in Crown Point, with
geo: The old jail. Yeah.
j: You go in there and let’s
Vinny: We just never come back. They’re like,
j: I know, right? That’s it.
That’s how a movie gets made, right? That’s how a horror movie is. Is it?
Vinny: this hidden footage. I think it’s their last episode that they never uploaded
j: person that leaves,
Vinny: possessed.
Moses: Lost
j: you know, it’s gonna be Georgia, probably the final girl usually makes it out.
We’re all gonna be, we’re all gone. I’m, I’m done. I’m be the
nick: the first. Yeah.
j: maybe Moses or Dick might beat me to it, but
nick: Me for just doing something stupid.
Vinny: What’s the
geo: Ouija board.
nick: Come here, lemme fight you. If it’s anything like fasm phobia, oh, I’m gonna be yelling at them. Calling ’em cowards all day.
j: about fantasm, right? That was another one where you
Moses: [01:04:00] Yeah. Fantasm definitely
j: Yeah. That’s a old school one. There. Yeah, I think that’s we’re at the end of time. I think we can keep going.
As Vinny mentioned, we
geo: No. ’cause there’s a lot of people that, there’s a lot of people that wanna get into the store.
I think we need to wrap it up.
nick: banging down the
j: it up. We haven’t
geo: we don’t wanna like, touched
j: we haven’t touched on graveyards
geo: We don’t wanna, like
Moses: We might we might have to split that into a
j: Let’s go another one. Yeah. Maybe do it.
Moses: grave yard.
Do it. Yeah. Do it at a graveyard.
j: Yeah. As we go,
Vinny: you guys
nick: you guys have anything to plug?
j: Yeah. You guys got things going on October, ’cause that’s your
Vinny: month.
So we got in October, we have it’s not necessarily horror, but we’re doing like a, I think you should leave like Tim Robinson event at the arcade bar
j: Yeah. Yeah. Saturday
Vinny: the fourth. Then we have we’re gonna be doing our own thing called Halloween Hangout that we do every year at the same arcade bar where we get a whole bunch of vendor friends come hang out.
j: And
Vinny: and then in November we have a big screening at Music Box On the 26th, we’re doing a 35 millimeter screening of PeeWee’s, big Adventure
nick: Wow. Hell
j: There
Vinny: and 35 millimeter.
Nice.
j: [01:05:00] Cool, cool.
Vinny: so yeah, if you guys aren’t doing anything in Black Wednesday and want to come start your night with us, we’re gonna do like a big merch drop and have like a big old fun party.
Usually we do horror movies, it’s so close to the holidays. It’s like, it just feels like,
j: Do something lift modes. Yeah.
Vinny: we’re big Peewee fans. It’s like we finally have the excuse to
j: to do it. Cool. Yeah. And we’ll
Moses: Oh, and that gey screening October 10th.
Vinny: Yeah. We’ve been doing these like backyard screenings
j: cool.
Vinny: cool
call we call it the Midnight Rewind Society where we do like old VHS tapes and
j: Oh wow. Cool.
Vinny: Play ’em in the back.
Nice.
j: We’ll put links and have that on the newsletter that comes out and, you know, you can check it out and find these guys. Come up, visit the horror house and get all your horror related
nick: Play some games. Play
j: Yeah. But don’t come when they’re recording a podcast
Yeah. Or read the signage. But yeah, so Cool. Thanks again for having us join you for the second year in a row. It was, it’s always fun in conversation and everything like that. So you have me, [01:06:00] Joe,
nick: you got Nick. You got Nick
j: we’ve got Nick
geo: Georgia. We
j: got Georgia,
Got Moses,
Vinny: Vinny and Elvira.
j: El Elvira.
Vinny: El.
j: it
Moses: the kitty
j: Creaking doors open,
geo: Oh sweet. And
nick: we went down some holes
Vinny: holes,
j: holes.
Moses: Y’all
j: curious. Stay safe. Love y’all.
nick: Love y’all from the other side.
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