Joe: [00:00:00] Hey,

welcome back to the Rabbit Hole of

nick: Research.

Joe: We’re down here in the basement studio. You have me, Joe,

nick: you got Nick again.

Georgia: Georgia,

Joe: we’ve got Georgia, and we have a special guest. Take it away,

Ben

Tanzer: Hey,

it’s

Ben.

Good to be back

or good to be here.

You’ll tell me in the middle of our time. Travel travails. Anyway, Ben Tanzer here

from Chicago

Author, fellow

podcaster,

college professor, Low key consultant. Dude, honored

to be a guest tonight and talk about one of my own books

’cause what could be more

self-serving than that? So thank you all

for having

6me and

I am gonna repeat this in case we lost it

before, but

I am

so jealous of that basement vibe.

and we

don’t have a

vibe, so I’m excited about

that. Appreciate it.

nick: So when was the last time he read your own book? Do you read your own

book?

Ben

Tanzer: I will read them after they come out,

but I’m really, not someone, it’s funny, if I was an actor, I would absolutely watch

my own movies.

For sure.

ego

[00:01:00] is both fragile and strong enough.

at the same breath.

But

no, I don’t necessarily go back and read my own books. So one of

the tensions

is there’s

so many books to

read.

I feel like you’re

7gonna waste time on your own book.

dude. No,

haven’t,

I don’t read them often.

and I definitely haven’t read this one in a while.

so it’s fun to revisit it.

with the Three of you.

nick: Oh yeah. Yeah.

Joe: We’re

Joking a little bit ’cause we’ve had a few technical difficulties getting this episode

started all, all on

nick: the production

man, that still, I still whatever role I played in it. Lemme tell

Joe: No,

need to apologize. It’s

Georgia: a,

No. It’s all Joe’s fault. it’s a

nick: field.

I was blaming the imaginary sound deck.

You

Georgia: yes, fire

nick: Our production

Georgia: production manager

now.

8Joe: If anyone knows a good production manager, let us know.

Georgia: That

nick: so Joe, do you have any lists that you want to go

over?

Georgia: Yeah,

Joe: do have,

Georgia: Why don’t you introduce us to what

is this? episode? Yeah, so we be

Joe: talking about

broken futures, trauma and the human condition. And this is framed as Ben had

[00:02:00] mentioned around his novel orphans.

And so I just wanted to lay. The groundwork for kind of these words, broken fu-

tures, trauma, human condition, just so we’re all grounded, and then we can get into

our discussion again.

Future,

I put together this kind of definition as a future where progress technology, sci-

ence, economics, paradoxically degrades human dignity, e exacerbates trauma and

disintegrates social structure rather than uplifting humanity.

So I mentioned trauma. Traumas is emotional, physiological, psychological re-

sponse to an event or series of events that overwhelms an individual’s ability to cope,

leaving lasting effects on mental, emotional, and sometimes physical health and trau-

mas when something happens to you. And a part of you stays stuck there. And the hu-

man condition refers to the essential experiences, struggles, emotions, and existential

realities [00:03:00] that define human life, including birth growth, conflict, love, work,

suffering, and mortality. It’s not just our biology or culture, is a total experience of be-

9ing human across time and place. The human condition is the beautiful, terrifying, and

endless attempt to find meaning between birth and death.

Georgia: Hold on. This could be a long episode

Joe: Yes.

Georgia: Yes.

Joe: And we’re recording

now. But

yeah, I’m

gonna pause here ’cause I do have a list, but I wanna

Georgia: Oh, you have also have

Joe: I have a list too.

Georgia: Oh. Oh, wow. I think

Joe: prepared.

Georgia: Oh my gosh.

Joe: once

nick: Georgia,

Georgia: button,

nick: I have the

Georgia: analyst, but I think maybe we should,

Hear a little backstory

About Yeah.

You talk

Joe: orphans and how I came to this episode and getting Ben to talk about an old

book, like he knows

Georgia: not very old

10Ben

Tanzer: No, not so old. Anyway, yeah. There’s like,

backstory and then

nick: yeah,

Ben

Tanzer: I feel like

a young man. though. I don’t know what that says about,

the young men I’m raising. They’re really young men,[00:04:00]

but.

there

is Backstory and then a little extra backstory. The Backstory to the backstory

and I don’t know what you call that, backstory squared is something I was talking

briefly to

you guys about.

was,

I had to go on a work trip.

It was a big opportunity. but It was also something that was very important to my

boss. And at the time, one of my kids was going through a

hard time and really it was a terrible time to go away. Not that, I

didn’t think my wife could handle it.

Not that she can’t, couldn’t handle it, the idea of

leaving her to handle this by herself

and she’s go man. You’re cool.

Okay,

so I’m flying cross country

and I have a layover

out West and I call home

11just to check in and things were not going

well, and I felt sick.

Honestly felt physically sick.

It’s funny, Joe, you talk about

trauma and being stuck

on something that was traumatizing.

that phone

call and

I’m gonna use all your

key words here,

know, my wife was like, just, yeah,

Right on. And my

wife

was just like, Just go

And so there was this moment where I

thought,

should I have told my boss this isn’t something I can go do?

But [00:05:00] I also

realized I didn’t feel

I could do that, but that was

balanced out

by what I recognized was my own ego and my own need to go do this thing I was

asked

to do which was a big deal.

and I

12realized it

wasn’t one or the

other. It was a

both and I was embarrassed

by that. I was embarrassed

that I couldn’t talk to my boss.

and I was embarrassed that I still

wanted this. So I was thinking a lot about that and I was thinking this

would

make for an

interesting sort of

book, right? What does it mean

to need to

work, to want to work,

to have work

dictate decisions for you?

And I’ve always been

very work

oriented

and focused

and striving. So I was

carrying that idea around in my head, what does it mean to be someone who

goes away to

travel, to leave your family, to prioritize work? And then I was

out running

one night

13And I was

running along the lake and

I looked up and I don’t know what planet or star I saw because this is where I’m

very

derelict in

my larger

[00:06:00] education,

But I looked up in the sky and I thought,

wouldn’t

it be interesting if this guy who’s got this job?

that involves travel?

What

he had to travel to

Mars? Like what if it was really

thing, not just fly to California

like I did back

and forth in

72 hours. What if it was a whole journey? And then I started thinking, wow, what if

this was like

death of a

salesman meets the Martian Chronicles. What

if you could somehow take these ideas,

It’s about work, but it’s also

about building a new universe or a new world. Could someone be,

14Speaking about the

human condition,

could someone be

caught somewhere in the middle of those things? And by the time I got home, I

could really visualize a book that I had

just been slowly

noodling on for several weeks.

Right? A guy.

who puts work before his family, but he doesn’t just go away for say, 72 hours.

Right? It’s gonna take

months

to go back.

and forth to Mars,

Even if I’m of

Joe: about nine months to get there, right?

That’s

Ben

Tanzer: right. Thank you. So even if [00:07:00] I’m messing

with what reality is like it’s nine months.

that seems crazy.

Stay I shortened it ’cause it’s the

future. it still has

to be

six months.

or three months, whatever it

has to be,

it’s not

15a short thing. And then I thought,

wow, there’s a whole

book here. What would that look like? And why are we going to Mars? And it’s

funny,

I don’t consider myself any more prescient than anyone else, but

authors sometimes

have those moments. And One of my ideas, which is funny

Now

and

I think it’ll seem more clear

why it’s funny

is I thought,

oh, this is rich.

People deciding to colonize,

Mars

’cause They’re done

with the Earth, right? That seemed very real to me. Now, of course, rich people,

Elon Musk,

in particular talk about that all the time. so I’m sure I heard that Somewhere,

I doubt it was an original idea, but it wasn’t like a normal part of the of conversa-

tion, and I thought this would be really

interesting.

This guy who’s never going to be rich, who’s barely keeping it together, is helping

sell this property on a planet that’s not developed yet, for rich people

so they can

abandon [00:08:00] people

16like him and his family.

Then I thought that’s a fun conflict to mess with, right?

So now you’ve got the conflict of

how do we live on

this

earth?

That gets into the dystopia.

Joe

was referring

to how, why do we have to

Cater

to the rich and how do we support

our families? Like this guy does need to support his family.

Could he do it back on earth? not clear. And then I just started playing that out. So

whatever point you all are in the book, that’s the sort of

that’s the

path I wanted to follow. The torture the human condition

of,

I need to do this, but do I really need to do this? ’cause that was my feeling.

Did I really need

to go do

what I did? So this guy’s a lot more extreme. He is going to Mars, but he is also,

the situation’s a lot more dire

for him in

terms of

cash

17flow

and he owes people money

and so there’s another dynamic. There’s a sense of violence.

and dread Over his shoulder all the time as well.

nick: he’s doing, what he, yeah, he just needs to do what he needs to do to sup-

port his way of living. And

Ben

Tanzer: love about that,

Nick, sorry. not [00:09:00] to cut you

off, but what I love about That

is that’s absolutely true.

And it still raises the question.

Is he

absolutely. doing? Is this The only thing

he could do, like

I frame it

like,

that’s how it feels

for him, and I

think that’s important,

but

Right. He’s doing what he has to do, but he is also choosing the most extreme way

to do,

it.

But we don’t

Georgia: I’m

sure he thinks

18Going to Mars. That’s pretty, cool. yeah

Joe: and

nick: when I was reading it I was picturing like, yeah, there could be other options,

but for him, this is the option. Like this is gonna help get as much of his debt paid so

he can keep surviving.

I don’t know if that was where you were going with it and

clearly now I can

Ben

Tanzer: No, I really wanted it to feel, yeah,

I wanted it

feel desperate

also,

It’s interesting to me

as a writer

as a thinker, as a fellow podcast or like desperation takes on so many shapes and

forms and

there’s so many layers, right? Like I had,

a gig

again, that’s what [00:10:00] prompted this.

was desperate for

it to go well,

but my family’s livelihood didn’t depend on it.

on the other hand,

I didn’t wanna deal with my, boss, so

I felt slightly desperate, but I also

19felt desperate with the feeling of, man, are you deserting your family and I

really didn’t want that feeling, but that’s also my own guilt and

shame.

And again, my family was fine. That’s the other

thing. Right?

My family was fine. I just thought

nick: Everyone survived.

Ben

Tanzer: Everyone

survived.

Not only did

Everyone survive, But they’re still all in the same apartment. I left them in all

those years everybody lives

at home again, so I know it

worked out

Joe: and I wanted to frame it a little bit and, if your story kind of takes a bent, but

the little sci-fi kind of thing, especially as we barrel towards ai,

robot automation and then maybe future thinking and getting the realm of hand

avium, cloning and replacements.

And that was where, I had the list of things to talk, in this world. Because not only

[00:11:00] maybe, in this future world, you have to do what’s best for your family, and

maybe that’s off world. But, like when, during World War ii, when the men went to the

front lines, people had to backfill in and take jobs.

So what if the backfill

The

20reason you can’t get a good paying job here on earth is because machines have

taken those and, or clones, can replace, you also,

Ben

Tanzer: Yeah, that’s that, Oh, sorry.

go ahead.

Joe: go ahead. No. Go forward it. That’s

Ben

Tanzer: I was definitely playing with that as well.

right? They have, even though they’re,

borderline,

I don’t think

they’re poverty stricken. they’re working

class

Their apartments

still automated. There’s still a Robot

vibe that takes

care of things and

there are robots

all

over town, because again,

you get to cut down on the workforce. The other thing I was really Interested

in around class issues,

and work.

was that there, it’s

not just, there’s no middle class,

there’s almost no

jobs that exist in the middle.

Right.

21You’re either [00:12:00] rich

and

running

Joe: you just poor.

Ben

Tanzer: Or you’re poor.

And I thought

that is where the country this felt

like,

this 10 years ago

to me, that’s where the country’s

heading. Last night

I got

home really late from

class and

I almost

got run down by some mechanized

delivery. thing. I don’t even know what you call those. It was zipping down the

sidewalk,

Georgia: Did it

Ben

Tanzer: 25 miles an hour.

Georgia: Oh, did it look? Were you walking? And then it went by you?

Joe: looked like a little rover,

Georgia: Yeah.

nick: it

Georgia: it look like a ice box or a cooler

Joe: on wheels.

22Georgia: Yeah. Like a robot Cooler.

Joe: Yeah. So our

Ben

Tanzer: that means Somewhere in my neighborhood.

some Delivery person did not get that gig. So it struck me that this is an interest-

ing

disparity

to explore and

then I don’t know if

you were alluding to this, Joe,

but the other thing that adds a level of tension for me in

the book

is that the guy.

When they send you away, they

Clone you

temporarily.

So not only

are,

you know

your family

not

missing and

this plays into my sitting in this airport, [00:13:00]

they not only don’t

miss you on a personal level, anything you would’ve.

done,

23support the family.

You’re

Someone,

some version of you is doing

Joe: And that was a was that Twilight Zone episode?

Georgia: No Remember we was that Black

mirror,

Joe: was that a Black Mirror

Georgia: Yeah,

Like more Recently there was the one where did you see the episode? Where

they’re in space together, but then it was a, was it a robot?

Yeah. They had It was a robotic. Version of themselves still at home,

I home

Joe: doing all the home stuff. And then they could download themselves

Georgia: into

the robot.

Joe: then

nick: like that

just makes it all more expensive. No.

Joe: I

guess it

nick: on the

Georgia: instead, right?

Joe: Or what, like

Georgia: that was a really good Black Mirror episode. that was,

24They’re They have that future technology bent to ’em and but you have that that

feeling there because you get into some interesting questions that in this. Zone. What

does it, if we think about that human condition, what’s it mean to love right now?

Joe: If you go off and you now have a clone, take your [00:14:00] spot or in this

black mirror where that happened. Also do you become,

Georgia: well

Joe: do you, can you fall in

love

with the clone and does the clone have

Georgia: Well, Okay.

I need to make some sort of distinction.

Now, a

clone. Is an actual human being that just has the exact same genetic

makeup.

Joe: True. Yes.

Georgia: how

I’m not, I guess I’m

trying to picture

how that works, because,

Joe: so

I don’t

know

How Ben or let’s not pick on Ben, but the, on the

nick: story,

Ben, let’s pick

25you

Ben

Tanzer: Oh no. Pick on

Ben.

Ben’s totally

Joe: yeah,

nick: I guess you’re here

yeah.

Joe: But

how was the cloning performed?

Because there George’s so a clone in particular is just a genetic copy of the origi-

nal. The problem with cloning in a way, it’s usually portrayed, and we did the cloning

episode last season. Is that the base memories of the original. Aren’t also necessarily

uploaded. So you have nature versus nurture kind of thing.

So the clone And how do you get an

Georgia: And also the clone has to

[00:15:00] then go from they’re a baby and they have to, go to be an adult.

So obviously In this situation, that’s not

plausible probably. Right.

to wait till that

Joe: waving. So

Georgia: the clone actually is like a copy that just happens at the time.

They

need it.

nick: I’m so lost on this

Ben

Tanzer: They, they, yeah. So my, my, I,

Joe: all the science and

26Georgia: full detail.

Ben

Tanzer: I did I did I mention to you guys that I was an English major and then

I went to social work school or grad school. So yeah, my science skills

Are slim,

but the way I, envisioned it was certainly

that they

bring you into the lab and

they’re creating a version of

you that’s good.

for six months or more.

And actually to your point, I’m glad you

brought this up ’cause I remember being conscious about it whether I pulled it off,

I’m gonna leave to the experts in the

room, but it’s a, g they’re using your DNA to create a copy, that’s a Genetic similar

similarity, that’s not the word I want.

But

to g [00:16:00] genetically similar and not, e not able necessarily to tell apart

though I

think

part

of the vibe is that

It’s a clone because there’s something missing, in terms of the sort of Energy or

heat or

whatever your significant other, whatever vibe they give off,

you can tell the

difference. But in

27my case, I thought it was important

that they also downloaded your memories so that the clone.

Is it necessarily looking to literally, but this is an interesting question.

Replace the person, but they can

be available

to offer solace and Conversation and nostalgia.

The question about

love is fascinating

’cause what I thought would be interesting is less that the significant

other might fall in love with the clone, but that at

a certain point, things

just start to blur that

it was less

about, falling in

love and Forgetting. that there’s a difference that I thought seemed Possible. To

me, If

you felt abandoned if you

were isolated.

And then this identical version is just

Why. think about them. We, you, we were thinking about the spouse or the part-

ner, [00:17:00] but if you have children that are younger they may not know the origi-

nal at all and become totally, in love with this replacement parent

nick: And then when you come back, like you don’t have those memories with

your child, right? You’re

like, oh, I’m sorry.

Joe: the memories back

28nick: uploaded? Do they go all right from,

Joe: January,

20, 28 when you left for Mars, you’re clone. Now we’re gonna give you all the

memories that they had and when you

came

Georgia: we don’t wanna ask every specific question about the book ’cause we

gotta read

Joe: I don’t know. Maybe this isn’t in the book. I don’t Well, but I,

nick: can say no spoilers

Joe: and let’s move along. Like I answered this in the

book.

Ben

Tanzer: spoil spoilers is good, but I

honestly, I

say this

with affection.

you all are going as far as I thought about

it but there’s definitely steps beyond.

It’s interesting, like with the children,

one

thing I

thought about, which I

just, I love

that you,

brought up children is that

one of the strengths

29of the clone, and clearly I was

projecting here

that the clone actually can be calmer and more patient. than [00:18:00] Maybe we

can be as a parent. That

one of the things

you’re building in

is the.

importance Of a clone bringing

sort of peace and equanimity to the house. Because again, you’ve already had this

person.

stripped away. So the

goal

And the goal of

the corporation who, the,

protagonist goes to work for, they need to keep people happy. And they need to

keep the people

at home happy. So,

part of my sense was, and again,

my own projection, right?

I was a parent of small kids

and I was terrible parent that

these people would

also have

more patience,

which is

30also nice for a significant

other. They can

be calmer. So I had this idea they would be better versions of us.

Georgia: And

then also.

Okay, so the person’s away

at Mars doing their job

and this clone

is at home. They don’t need to go to work

because, that’s right.

Because the That’s right. Other per, so then are they just at home all the time? Like

being

like almost like

a stay at home dad or whatever or mom or, however, this I’m just saying dad, be-

cause we were talking about it being a man, But but then that makes a [00:19:00]

huge difference if all of a sudden your only thing

to replace that person and be at home all the time.

And not

nick: they actually just hide

out in the closet.

I’m just curious

Georgia: oh, and then I don’t

expect you to an yeah.

Ben

Tanzer: Whatever the in-between place

is. Not quite hiding out, but yeah, no, not going to work either cleaning the

31house, chilling out,

nick: You go hang out at the

cafe.

Ben

Tanzer: Development.

Georgia: was gonna and I still have one more question about the clone. I’m sorry,

This

is just like, fascinating to me.

Joe: Let’s, figure it

Georgia: Is the clone a human being? It’s the clone

then after

the,

nick: different right

Georgia: after these six months, Do they

just like

disintegrate or, That’s what I’m saying. What’s their

Joe: agency

Georgia: and is it a human, right?

nick: The old yeller him and just take ’em out back.

Joe: Have,

nick: you

Georgia: can they be killed? If you clone

Joe: sheep,

right? It’s still a sheep.

Or if you have a pet and you go to

32clone it and it’s a dog, it’s still, we consider

Georgia: still a dog.

Joe: take a human. And you clone it. This becomes the ethics, and this is bioethics

1 0 1 here, [00:20:00] is that if you clone a human, then that human should have the

agency and the rights of its fellow people, right?

Georgia: Gosh. that’s

Joe: What

you would do. So yes, it

is a human,

and then you would have to make the parameters.

So if you had a disposable human, then that would be everyone agreed upon that.

In an in ben scenario, if you had a rich class. And a poor, and they just want the poor

people to go do their bidding. Then they might either a, give the clone some rights

that they can then go off and be a poor person and join a poor people group.

Or they just go, you know what, this clone, it’ll die. And it’s, it

has

Georgia: it’s like a self.

That totally is

ringing these bells which

Joe: Ding. You can ring my bell. Can’t,

Georgia: I

can’t bring it. Actually, into my

nick: for that. Don’t,

Georgia: But there’s a story I

33watched, we

watched where they

made a clone because the person was gonna have like terminal illness and die.

and then they made like a clone. But then that person ended up [00:21:00] living

But then everybody liked the clone. The clone better, Yeah yeah.

nick: That has to be harsh. Like

I don’t, have to be, I don’t,

Joe: that’s in Ben’s kind of scenario, the clone is actually much more likable.

Maybe if you’re

A-hole and you go off

and the clones like

lovable and,

a joy to be around, you

might go, you know

what?

You can stay on Mars and keep sending a paycheck because we got the sugar

daddy in the closet over here, and.

Georgia: We’re just

Ben

Tanzer: So now I’m gonna be very interested when one of you reaches the

end of the book and

you can tell me.

what you think Because this does play

into the ending of the book

for sure.

It also raises this question, you guys are all both saying

34it and dancing around it not dancing around it like in a cryptic way, but not know-

ing the

answer. And so I

don’t know the answer

either, but one of the things I was so intrigued by is

how

ultimately

replaceable is

everyone. And again, when you Filter it through the lens

of work.

And

I spend a ton of time thinking about work,

[00:22:00] Anyway,

a way

if you’re not the

boss, you’re not the

owner,

then everybody’s expendable.

And

One of the things, I’ll do my own callback, which is very self-serving.

This particular boss I

had, who I really liked. I wanna add that, if that may be unnecessary. He is not

gonna listen to this probably, but other people will,

He won’t, He won’t

for sure. I’m sure he is. Never heard a podcast, we’re

35all

expendable and there is a part Where you want to turn

down a job. And again,

this was a pretty

big job

I had at the time.

I worked in

the nonprofit universe. Let’s not confuse it with working at like CocaCola, or some-

thing.

There

was always this sense, of I could be replaced anytime. It doesn’t

matter that I, have a certain knowledge base now, or

institutional memory or there are people around the.

country who consider me

To be the expert in this area

or that area.

If the boss decides, you’re

done. And so I also

wanted to play with that

sense that

we’re all expendable. So

in this story, certainly the replacements for the people traveling

are considered expendable

until, Meaning[00:23:00]

we don’t know how long they’re going to go necessarily.

but

36the idea is when the person comes home.

The

clone

is done. and they will move the clone

Into some other,

job.

Joe: say

also if the person that goes to the Mars,

nick: cheaper for the company to just not send them back and,

Have it crash

Joe: Or Right. You don’t

have to

even deal with it. You go, oh, they died on Mars and, sorry. And they can just keep

working on Mars.

And I think this gets into, as we’re talking, thinking about you, you start to blurt a

line of, into slavery, right? You start you go from poor with agency to

agency and almost like the clones and the person sent to Mars,

I guess they’re getting a paycheck at some level, but you begin to, if you don’t

have rights to

nick: Even the company could own that spot that so it they’re not paying anyone.

They’re right. That’s right. Paying themselves. All right, cool.

Joe: It’s

Like when you go, oh,

you, you

37get $10, but you gotta [00:24:00] pay. Nine

50 to rent the apartment you live

nick: in the company, man.

So Really?

And then it’s

Joe: cents to get your feet eh, and then it’s, another

20 cents for clothes.

So you’re actually owe me,

Another hour of work.

So I think you do get

into these really

interesting a class,

nick: based outta history that you know, has already human

Joe: history. That humans aren’t

good stewards of labor and money and economics.

Georgia: or pretty much anything. But anyway

nick: let’s go with your trauma, Georgia. What trauma do you have with this one?

Georgia: But I wanna ask how are most of the

stories that you write

science fiction or

was

this something different for

you?

Do you know what I

Ben

Tanzer: That’s a great question. no, this is definitely

something.

38different.

had a moment this, when I was on this run. I wasn’t planning on writing something

science fiction, but

when I looked up and saw, and I was a voracious science fiction reader all

Georgia: All

Ben

Tanzer: All

through childhood, high

school, college, maybe I’ve slowed down

in adulthood.

But it was a genre I was [00:25:00] completely wrapped up in.

But this is also the first thing that I thought, let’s

try to double down and make this

science fiction.

what? And

Again and again, we have authors here, I’m not the only one. You

start thinking about your own

work.

I know I was at

the time and I thought, okay, how do I do a thing?

I believe

I do well but bring some new

wrinkle to

it, Right, Or wrap it.

in a new layer. And

39maybe,

and again, some of this was excitement and some of this is the desire

to create cool stuff, which I’m always trying to do.

Things

people enjoy and react to.

And we can have conversations like this.

To me, this is very, a very

peak reason. I would try to write that kind of

book.

’cause then I,

get to talk to the three of you and I don’t have all those answers. Right. I

thought about them and took copious notes whatever.

But no. So that was

the first time I tried that.

I felt like in that case,

And I

don’t usually

traffic very much an

inspiration.

I think about the

writing, like

work, like

today we sit down, we get back to work,

We’re on this thing. But that time it [00:26:00] really,

hit me

like,

40let’s make

this feel

not feel science fiction. Let’s

remove ourselves from

this planet. and start building something else. And

so it became science fiction. And I’m thrilled because again, I

nick: and it feels so human too. Like it

Ben

Tanzer: good. like it is

to hear that. like a, as I said, it was the entire time I’ve been reading, I’m like, oh,

this story doesn’t have to take place here.

nick: It could take place anywhere.

Joe: Yeah.

Georgia: So the univers, The universal human. Yeah,

nick: exactly. It’s a human story that’s made sci-fi.

Georgia: And I think a lot of times people think, oh, I’m not into sci-fi ’cause

it’s This or that. And I think, no, I think it can be a very approachable Yeah.

Like relatable thing.

It’s

nick: covering something that

very social forward, being like, okay, we’re gonna make this easily digestible. Not

saying that it’s, but it’s

Ben_Tanzer: dude. I

think actually to create [00:27:00] something interesting that’s digestible would

be awesome to me. I think,

that’s

41Joe: yep. just didn’t know if I was gonna be like, oh, man, I’m just insulting you.

Georgia: too. I

Joe: when a lot

of people say, because I I write in a speculative sci-fi genre mostly.

But I think when people go, I don’t like sci-fi, I think they’re thinking of hard sci-fi

and that gets bogged down. It’s like fantasy. There are fantasy novels. I get bogged

down into explaining. And I don’t wanna get in any trouble, different classes fairies

and trolls and,

And

there’s pages and pages of that, and the story kind of seems to slow down.

There’s people that really enjoy that.

nick: with all the lore

Georgia: Science, but

Joe: fiction that moves, it’s character driven, plot driven in a science that sprinkled

in there either

in a very loose way, very handwaving way, where it’s just a lab, DNA

clone, boom, I’m done. Or, myself, I

try to go a little bit more into it, but very, like the, conversational, very, bring it

down and fit it in, weave it into that.

The dialogue and through the narrative to have the world building happen. And I

[00:28:00] think that’s, I think someone who had

nick: big ideas

Joe: and it was interesting, Ben, you said you were a reader of sci-fi back in the

day and talking, I just thought about Isaac Mov and his robot series,

which really, that was the

crux of it.

42These big ideas

and the science was in there, but the big idea was that, it besides the detective, da

and their adventures and,

But it was more the society was

This kind of place where we had the classes and machines had taken over a lot of

jobs. And so people were very anti, had this luddite kind

attitude towards the robots that were replacing them.

And

then the robots

seemed to gain sentience, right? At some level. And it was like, how do we control

this thing? And that’s gonna replace us potentially.

And our homes and our lives. And so

that, that was ve interesting there, this kind of

the classic

example of this kind of dynamic that you are exploring.

So I tethered back

fast [00:29:00] forward a little bit, maybe early eighties Blade Runner, the dispos-

able kind of worker

disposable, when I was thinking, what

if your story reversed that you got cloned and then your clone

went off with no agency, so you got paid maybe some

sum. Oh, Ben, he’s really good at X, Y, and Z.

Georgia: Hey

Joe: can we clone you for,

A hundred k and then we’re

43sic,

gonna send your

clone off

and then your clone now has this eight no one’s written this story, I’m gonna

write it.

Ben

Tanzer: say, yo, this story needs

to be

Joe: you know what? Nevermind,

Ben

Tanzer: you are really, you are these whole series of

Comments, speak to what

tend to circle back to.

whether it’s conscious or not. You mentioned the human condition. The most ba-

thing

anything I write,

is trying to understand.

how

we, any of us

Exist day to day,

how we cope.

That somehow to me, the quotidian stuff, going to buy groceries or fighting

with your

Or, taking your

significant other to the doctor.

that Those are equally important.

44They’re important. If you can figure out how to talk,

about them, that how we work

[00:30:00] and how we’re denied

work and how we deny

ourselves things.

and that this

all plays out. And

then in this story, I just thought, there’s this sci-fi

element, right.

I’m gonna still try to do

what if Hopefully,

well, but

Can

you tell it through this different

lens? So that was really conscious and

It’s only recently that I had

another idea that is in that lens, and so I’ve

been pursuing that.

And it’s interesting early

And I’d never had this

reaction, before. I thought,

oh, I’ve got a sequel for

this book. And it looked like it was

going to go forward

And then

45that fell

apart for a variety

reasons. so I shelved it and then over the pandemic, I pulled it off the shelf.

Though Obviously

it’s a metaphorical shelf it was sitting in a file

Joe: Yeah we get

Ben

Tanzer: But I started thinking, okay,

That sequel thing is not going to happen, but there’s some interesting ideas. here.

So it’s only After 10 years, that I’m, working in that potentially

We’ll have to see if somebody wants the book, like in that

genre again.

But I always do come back to work and coping and,

thinking. and Yeah. sorry.

Georgia: Oh, I was gonna ask,

so as far

as bringing in the [00:31:00] science of the science fiction, how did you approach

that, since that’s not something that you typically write in, is that, did you have to do a

lot of research or?

Ben

Tanzer: So

that’s an

awesome question. ’cause I probably should have done More research

what I did, and in essence,

cheated a

little bit.

nick: your

46Joe: now, like at the rabbit hole of research and we

Ben

Tanzer: So it’s funny. Yes, I’ll be, trust me, I’ll be leveraging this relationship

next. You all are stuck with me indefinitely,

Georgia: And I think by that, Joe means himself. Okay.

Ben

Tanzer: then

Georgia: I

nick: don’t think they

Georgia: and I can, help you. can we?

nick: I got my take advantage of Yeah.

Ben

Tanzer: big brain

going

nick: part.

Georgia: We can

help you in the human condition. part. The human

nick: trauma. I got you.

Joe: Nick’s got you with coffee. It’ll keep you coffee

enough.

Ben

Tanzer: All right,

Joe, You,

are now officially a consultant. But what I

did Do

you know, and again, I’m always doing low key research, if I

have an

idea

especially

47with a scifi book or you’re thinking forward,

I’ll

look something like, I’ll have the idea first, then I’ll look it up.

[00:32:00] and see how

reasonable Has

anyone ever talked about that?

I had to back it up.

Could I do it’s like

You said

It’s gonna take nine months to get to Mars. So

I looked that

up at the time. I don’t remember what I looked up, but I

thought, okay, but what I

really

did which is such a cheat, is that when

I was,

excited about an early draft,

I sent it

to a friend.

of mine who’s a science

fiction And I

was like, just tell me where I’ve got it wrong.

And

that was a,

really,

48interesting He was also

at the

time

working

for a scifi, publisher. And so I was semi pitching. him, semi

picking his brain. but I really wanted

him to react.

to things and it’s funny. ‘

cause

He did react.

to whatever I had written down for how quickly you could get to Mars and he’s

just f no, whatever I said at the time. And then he gave me a number, like nine

months and I thought,

okay.

is this future enough where I can cheat and make it, three to six

months? So I was playing with all that, but

really had him

run.

me through The

ringer.

do you think is,

As a published guy, human, what,

Where am I

so far [00:33:00] off?

base,

49Because I was really interested in that.

Joe: Yeah. It’s really interesting when you George,

Georgia: oh, no, I’m sorry.

Joe: and I was gonna say, it is interesting when you get into.

sci-fi

and you start going down I think it’s anything if you get too far away, you’ll pull

people out of the story and they’ll go, hold on.

That doesn’t make sense. I even,

nick: like, how much of the world building do you have to add in?

Joe: I also

think like any expert topic, if I wrote in my story about coffee roasting and I was off,

I didn’t consult Nick over here and he reads the book, he would get pulled out if I

make some reference about that or something in the story.

And I think that’s always, writers have to be careful not just science, but in any top-

ic. If I’m talking about a nonprofit organization and this is what we’re gonna do. I

should talk to Ben or Georgia here who have dealt with nonprofits or organizations to

make sure that I’m not just saying something.

Totally. Because if you read it, you’ll just pull you, you’ll get pulled outta that story

and go, hold on, that’s not,

lemme look that up on Google. And [00:34:00] then,

if it’s wrong, you go forget this story. If

that’s

Georgia: And I think

nick: it’s interesting.

Georgia: yeah, people

nick: out

50Joe: listening

who write,

Talk to,

Georgia: I, that’s actually

exactly what I was gonna ask you, Joe, like, how important is it to get the science

right?

nick: See, but I don’t know, like I, if, all right, so using that is an example of you

have a coffee roaster stuff and you didn’t consult, right?

But I feel like that’s such a small percentage of people,

Georgia: right?

They’re

Joe: you, you’ll be surprised how many folks

would go back and go, I think that’s wrong. I think

it’s gonna be small.

nick: a lot of that stuff is it isn’t science. Like I have all my notes and stuff, but

there’s so much human error and each person is gonna be doing it differently That.

You can make an argument for damn near anything to be able to write it down.

Joe: Yeah.

nick: Yeah. Just saying like on an argument basis, you can be like, alright, I can, I

think this is exactly how [00:35:00] I do it. I have it at a low temp and I drop it all the

way up. Or bring it all the way up, not drop

Joe: Yeah. See,

You’re already but I

nick: think

Joe: but also

51just saying that you have to have a little domain knowledge about it. Because

if you

don’t, then it,

Georgia: I guess it depends, I think it depends on how central it is to the story. If

it’s, you know what I’m saying? It’s, but

Joe: yeah, in, in terms of

like science stuff pet peeve of some shows, they get in the lab and they get like

DNA results in 10 minutes or whatever, and they solve the whole case that I go, that’s,

no, you’ve never worked in a lab.

Obviously you, you didn’t consult someone who works in a lab. It, I understand TV

time and all that,

but

it also just gives this air of did they actually consult somebody? Did they just make

this up? And I think that can pull you out of a story. That’s the only thing. Be cautious

of that will it pull you out?

Because if you’re writing a sci-fi story, the people reading it are probably into sci-fi

and they’ve

read,

As Ben said you [00:36:00] read

nick: on the sci-fi. So

Joe: you know, either a, you did it

wrong,

nick: or the other

Joe: authors who wrote about this did it wrong. Because under

nick: these are

52Ben

Tanzer: Right, right. Yeah. And and I’m like,

you

You’ve referenced Twilight Zone,

Georgia: Yay.

Ben_Tanzer: Asimov, Black Mirror. Those are all

So On some level

you’ve got, it’s like prep work, Yeah, I

think it’s prep, but You’re also

drawing on something, which

is funny.

And I’m funny. It’s just interesting, like it’s a craft tip and you all touched on it. and I

get to talk to a lot

authors. I’m sure you do too, and

also get to coach people and One thing I always say is

if you think the person’s

going to get

stuck or I’m telling you, I

feel Stuck here and distracted. If you can’t fix

it, you gotta get rid of it. And so

with science,

fiction or that this kind of, Anything,

sci-fi, the

risk is higher, but to me it applies

53almost anything. If there’s something that someone’s

going

to get

stuck on because

they don’t believe or agree with how you explained it. Like that TV show,

that’s something that has to be fixed and it

seems like a minor comment,

when people are trying to get novels [00:37:00] published and get

things written, but it’s not minor.

To lose people over something

small. Like when Someone

says to me, I really, I’m really sorry I read the draft, and that

paragraph

on page

12, I can’t get

through it I really enjoy The book so far. Then I need to go fix that

paragraph. It may only be one person,

but.

Off,

I don’t have that many,

readers, so

can’t risk losing even one. If

that person is a sample size of anything. Then, you

know, I’ve done, I’ve made a mistake,

and I’ve worked

54with authors. It’s like the flip

side of this, but it’s still interesting.

They say something they don’t realize is provocative in some way, and then I’ll

say

to them

as a coach or as a consultant

do you

wanna keep that in?

And they’ll say, why?

And I’ll say, do you understand how that reads?

they’ll say no. And I’ll say, so it’s an important point, but you either need to go

deeper, or get rid of it. ’cause leaving it like

all someone’s gonna be,

thinking are gonna,

20 pages.

Georgia: they’re gonna call you out on it. Like John, Liko recently saying, oh, I

didn’t know it’d be any big deal that I’m gonna

Ben

Tanzer: [00:38:00] my God, I was, I literally texted back to my son.

This is very upsetting.

He sent me the clip. I just thought, come on man.

nick: Oh, isn’t he gonna

be in Harry

Georgia: Be he’s gonna be Dumbledore. And he was

Oh, I Didn’t know anyone. Why would anyone have a problem with, that?

nick: don’t know if it’s true or not, but I heard that Pedro Pascal might be in it too.

Georgia: No, that can’t

55be

Ben

Tanzer: Well,

nick: And he

Ben

Tanzer: That

seems impossible.

nick: already talking shit about JK Rowlings too.

Ben

Tanzer: is probably looking for work

again.

No spoiler

alerts

Georgia: No he,

nick: I heard he is gonna be a.

Georgia: He,

The been very,

nick: Father,

Georgia: I don’t, I

nick: I

Joe: Oh, really?

Georgia: Nick, we need to do some verifying here because

Ben

Tanzer: Was gonna say I, need a fact

checker

nick: I don’t know.

Joe: With, put that in the show notes.

We gotta,

nick: He’s gonna look, he can

Georgia: been very vocal about

56his opinion. Anyway. We could go

Joe: up that I wanted to, but

Georgia: But

Joe: I

I like to explore early examples and I’ve, I found too, which is interesting about this

kind of human replacement and because I [00:39:00] thought that was just an interest

and we went down that path.

one

was in Greek, Greek myth Pygmalion,

Sculptor disillusioned with real women, sculpts a, another version

and

that the Pygmalion is, a Shaw’s play and

You have that.

But that was, that’s eight ce, so very early on.

And the other one I

had was the Goum in Jewish folklore. And that, you have this kind of replacement

of the, the humanoid and replacing the human equivalent and taking over function.

So that’s, we, and that was 16th century like Prague esque in that timeframe.

These stories of human replacement. We

think about technology and cloning and robots and

all this stuff

we’re bringing

up, but really we’ve been struggling with

Our, the almost a, a fragile sense of the human condition and our place in the nat-

ural world and our mortality that brought that up.

57Because you can extrapolate out that if you can start cloning yourself. The ultimate

goal when you think about it is that, as I get closer to death, can I clone myself and

then, re-up

[00:40:00] Get a redo

And have all of

Georgia: my base

Joe: memories and, and that,

that’s the show.

Ben

Tanzer: it’s interesting ’cause maybe.

Sorry, go ahead.

Joe.

got excited about

nick: Yeah, no,

Joe: I, and I was just gonna bring up that the show where we started

watching that animated one Pathon.

And,

nick: how is, that’s, it’s

Georgia: it’s really good. It’s really Good.

Joe: Good. And we started

Georgia: and don’t talk too much about that.

’cause that’s gonna lead into a different episode.

Remember?

Joe: Oh, sorry. What is there?

Okay. Nevermind. I dunno.

nick: Oh,

Georgia: remember we

58talked about the idea for another one?

Joe: okay.

I guess we did,

Georgia: actually, if

Ben

Tanzer: I will not allow you, if I can help it for you to ruin future episodes, but

I will say, you Keep

talking about

keep talking about like prep work. or, I’m, I,

grew up immersed in the golem.

of,

my dad talked the golem

All the, time. So even if I didn’t know exactly.

what’s

Georgia: Mm-hmm.

Ben

Tanzer: Joe, To your point,

I know what the

point is. Which is

building new versions of

ourselves, building replacement versions. Then I gotta say

for a moment

when you said you did

research also.

that I thought,

Is he gonna

name [00:41:00] drop the movie?

59Weird Science. ’cause that would be a

magical,

Georgia: You’re

Joe: science. You’re

right. That

Georgia: is,

nick: and

Georgia: and we

nick: how

Georgia: accurate weird science was. That had the science down to a t

Joe: If you’re gonna clone

people out of a Barbie doll, a bra and some underwear on your head, that’s the

way to go,

nick: That

Ben

Tanzer: I worked for them and

Joe: so

nick: I, I did have

Joe: thinking of, I went way

back, but early sci-fi, probably the first

people

all

agree at some level that the first sci-fi kind of story was Frankenstein, and

nick: that

sci-fi or is it horror?

usually considered

60Georgia: I think. I think both.

Joe: I mean I, all right, I’m, that’s

Georgia: I do

think it’s both, but I think it’s the science because you’re reanimating, like the

wasn’t, like

nick: the

Joe: horror. So I think this is considered the first sci-fi. So let’s say that, so in there,

right?

nick: Yeah.

Ben

Tanzer: it’s funny ’cause I was joking about

weird science, but I was wondering

if you were gonna mention Frankenstein ’cause

of course You’re [00:42:00] building

I mean it’s

a monster.

I’m

doing that with air quotes.

Joe: thunder.

Usually,

Ben

Tanzer: No. I’m thrilled. I

actually tracking. you

nick: got something older.

Joe: Nick

has

Ben

Tanzer: No, but I was tracking. Was tracking

where your brain was going. I

61Joe: I have

nick: a list of

Joe: kind of,

this historical list of kind of stories that have human replacements.

I, I

Pride myself

Georgia: I think it is really fascinating because. I don’t know. Anyway, someone

else say something ’cause I’ve lost my thought.

nick: I can say

that.

Joe: I’ll go with Irwin by Samuel Butler. And that was 1872. And the whole theme

there was that machines might evolve and surpass humans. So that’s how long ago

we’ve been thinking about a machine replacing us there and society. Then

Ben

Tanzer: in the

Terminator,

right?

Joe: begin, they banned the machines. So we, we, at this point in time, we kinda

have the industrial revolution working its way and, you ban you then go, let’s just ban

machines.

That way

then they’ll never replace us. They’ll never [00:43:00] overtake

us. You, we cut

it. So go back in time. And that’s, unlike the Terminator who goes back and tries to

stop John Conner from being conceived, what if the humans went back and they said,

you know what?

Let’s just forget all these machines.

62They caused us all the trouble. And so you would have this whole thing. So now

I thought it, that’s a early

example of machines. We think about these stories being relatively new. And real-

ly we’ve been, the minute machines seem to replace humans and, I, and my

list of stories

to talk about with John Henry and our struggle against the machine.

I, I do,

Georgia: And I think it’s just so important to look at how science fiction can help

us, even help us in science. You know what I’m

saying? Like we bring up these things through science fiction that and different

possibilities that maybe we haven’t thought about in our everyday life.

Do You know what I’m saying?

Yeah. I do think it’s.

it Important to like, look at these [00:44:00] things in that

sense

Joe: Yeah. No, I yes.

Georgia: And I, but I always would thought Jetsons, and having the robots and

stuff would help you and

nick: don’t care enough about robots anymore. I want flying cars. If we’re talking

about the Jetsons,

Ben

Tanzer: I know the Jetsons is a bummer because everything they predicted,

if you’re around

my age.

Joe: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. So you’re,

we.

Ben

Tanzer: That’s 40, 50 years ago. We got none of it.

63Georgia: I know And then

Joe: we’re probably,

nick: not, they’re

Georgia: have the robot robots doing the dishes or doing

the stuff that you

don’t wanna do. that’s

my whole or making things easier

Joe: AI and all that

And it’s like,

nick: we’re

stealing the fun jobs. Why don’t

Joe: write art

and no, why they do taxes and dishes and, laundry.

That’s what I want the

machine to do that I don’t have time to actually work on, work

Georgia: need to write

Joe: stuff. Yeah, no, they don’t. Yeah.

Georgia: Yeah. No, there’s

Joe: nothing

about the human condition except what we teach ’em. And that’s,

nick: and the people that are teaching them are,

Ben

Tanzer: but Joe, to your point, I’m not gonna elevate orphans [00:45:00]

above. Its

Primarily

pedestrian

level on that continuum.

64But what’s

fascinating is

just how long the continuum is

of people

thinking

about

what does it mean to

build replacements? What does it mean to be replaced even

when you don’t even have a

sense of technology. Going back to,

Pygmalion, you still have

this idea

we can be

replaced, And for me.

but I think you’re also touching on this to Go

sort of full circle. How

often

it doesn’t, not only intersect with domestic life, but it intersects with,

Capitalism.

and the sense that

On the good side, hey, it could do my taxes.

I can write.

That’s a positive if we could figure that out.

But so often it’s really abused and leveraged so that most

of us are not going to get to do the work we

65wanna do

or live

the

lives

nick: Oh a hundred percent.

Ben

Tanzer: And

so I

think that’s it always. One of the other

inspirations for this book, which is very not scifi. Is bartleby

The Scrivener. and I dunno if you all know

that by Melville and

when I read that

book

college, I don’t know a, story, it’s a story,

but it’s about a [00:46:00] guy who

decides not

to work.

real question

of what’s any worker’s obligation to the boss.

The first time I read it I remember thinking, there’s no debate here.

A person

got a job. They

applied for a

job, they got hired.

66The teacher, the

professor at the time was like why do we assume

you’re just supposed to

whatever

you’re told? to do, even when you’ve been Hired, for a job. And I don’t think I’d

ever

conceived that there was

another side to that

equation.

To me, the other side was

then you just don’t

take

that job, or

you don’t stay on that job or you find another job or you suffer.

And I still don’t think I understand

fully in my

own head where that fits, but it also fits on this continuum of things we’re talking

about, which is what are any of our obligations,

and what are our obligations

to work and bosses and the larger corporations we all feed into, and, I’ll always be

fascinated by

Joe: On that line, the maybe. ’cause it’s all, this always leads to dystopia but it

does have a contrarian kind of view. And I had some points here. I thought of

[00:47:00] maybe pluses and on to this point, Ben,

Work has historically been a source of trauma,

67For the

most part.

You can go

nick: so much trauma, alienation,

Joe: Soul sucking

death, it is just all these things we hear. So in some ways would

mourn its collapse, if,

Would we actually embrace

forced

leisure?

Would that bring us some sort

Georgia: Did you say forced leisure?

That’s

Joe: Yeah. Because all these stories,

Georgia: better start having some leisure there.

nick: Like,

I would kill for

some leisure,

Joe: Henry. I brought that up because he actually is

struggling against a machine saying that humans shouldn’t be replaced and hu-

mans can do a better job than the machine.

And he worked

harder

Georgia: and he worked himself. to

68Joe: You’re right. Some versions of the legend he killed himself defeating the ma-

chine.

So when I say forced leisure, it’s, is it something about the human condition, the

human experience that

we fall into,

as Ben was saying, we fall into line, [00:48:00] that work is part of

our

Georgia: then human condition.

There’s, but there’s so many different things that you have to tease apart in that,

because if you’re working, let’s say you’re working at.

A fast food

place

And you’re barely surviving. That’s different work than, I’m a brain surgeon and I’m

making this big difference

in the world.

Like, how much purpose are you

getting out of your work?

Joe: But if you, if with the.

person at the fast food place who now you say, okay, you’re forced into leisure.

They might be more accepting of it. So you’re saying they’ll be more accepting of

the leisure than a brain surgeon that goes, oh, the machine can do it now, so now I

can go off and play golf

Georgia: off. I think

nick: but wouldn’t that

Georgia: how much,

69nick: exercise more with art? If you have the leisure, you’re more accepting to do

the stuff that you didn’t think you would like. That’s when great things could be writ-

ten. Great. Paintings can be painted. Video games can be made.

But, or

you

Georgia: [00:49:00] or it’s

Joe: is a counter argument that.

Because you’re now not suffering. You won’t have the inspiration. You won’t be

like,

Ben,

nick: there’s other things to suffer

about. With Ben. You get the love life of suffering. You get the, there’s plenty of

suffer your

sunburn from the golf course. You know what I was

Georgia: so I’m saying like, how much of your identity is in

that work, right?

Yeah, that’s it’s like the people

that, find, they get to retire and then all of a sudden they go, wait, I don’t really

wanna do anything else.

nick: There’s so many other things I’d rather

Georgia: That’s not, how I would

feel

I would be very happy.

No, I

nick: hell, I can just sit around here and chat with you guys all

day.

70Joe: of

a sudden

this is the case

do you embrace it?

Do you and

I at forced leisure? I think, ‘

cause here example if you’re that brain surgeon, you’re gonna be forced in a

leisure, even though you might enjoy. Your profession, right? So we’re talking about

the people that might not

Georgia: it’s also

Joe: off the

bottom of the fry pan, but

Georgia: But it’s also

[00:50:00] totally tied

to capitalism and money, right. Yep. Yep. So there’s so many different.

Joe: Yeah.

yeah.

nick: And hell I can’t think of a job I’ve done that can’t be replaced by like a com-

puter or a robot.

It’s like everything I’ve done I know can,

so if the,

Joe: To your

point, Nick, if the machine or clones or whatever are better at the job than us hu-

mans, should we just let ’em re replace us?

Why are we stopping them, right? Or is that, is

71that

Georgia: Part of it.

nick: think

Joe: Ben has some comment. I think I saw he made

nick: a

Joe: We don’t have

video

Ben

Tanzer: it made me, it made me smile. The question right becomes

If they’re

better.

if we can let them replace us. If they ought to replace us.

It’s interesting

’cause you’ve taken the sort

positive

tack on this Joe, but Of course

there’s some

universe, everyone’s

I guess

we don’t need you at all.

And you don’t get forced leisure either. funny is

Georgia: base

nick: material.

Joe: Because

Ben_Tanzer: Yes. It’s an

interesting.

72thing and maybe it’s particularly

American [00:51:00] society.

which I think it is. When you talk about forced leisure, I was just reading some arti-

cle.

People love to always

talk about the European countries France in particular, how much the focus is on.

Yes. Work

hard, but don’t work like

they do in America.

Like we’re just not going to do that. But what’s

interesting to

is that this is a country where work is so completely valued And as Georgia was

talking

and overvalued,

arguably, I was thinking too,

whatever you do, whatever you aspire to, to Nick’s

point, if you could be

replaced on everything.

don’t know, but it’s also an interesting

discussion to me

about opportunity, certainly the character in this book

feels

that his opportunities are limited. And

You talked about trauma

73Joe, you’ve referred to

it, During this conversation. I’d

also see the characters, the protagonist

in the story

as growing up rough and

without, lacking certain

fundamental things, certain

support.

And so they’re

hustling.

And that’s another thing. right? When you’re hustling, you’re that much, [00:52:00]

you’re that

much, more

desperate to not. be. hustling. And I

thought if I, could capture some of that vibe, they

found each other, they’re holding on they have a kid, like, it’s not that they’re not

without hope,

but they’re absolutely without the possibility that they’re going

to be

able to easily take care of themselves or maybe even take care of themselves at

all.

And that I thought is fascinating.

The universe of,

forced leisure, which by

the way,

I’m totally picturing the Black Mirror episode the three of you have to write.

74I find that really

fascinating.

lot of people couldn’t do

it. They wouldn’t, they wouldn’t Know what

do.

We haven’t

been conditioned by Society to embrace.

It reminds me of that Twilight Zone

where the guy’s a bank robbery

he gets shot.

and then he

is clearly dead.

Joe: a resident Twilight zone expert.

nick: She know, this episode, Georgia. So he goes, he turns out, he’s

Ben

Tanzer: dead

Joe: you’re the first

guest to point out a Twilight Zone

Ben

Tanzer: Oh my God.

I am obsessed. And I should say, I went to the, I went to the same high school

much later.

Rod

Serling went to my [00:53:00] high

Georgia: Wow.

Wow.

75Ben

Tanzer: I feel a level

ownership relationship. There’s this

episode where the guy gets shot?

and

Georgia: Is it set like in Old West Time or

Ben_Tanzer: No, No, no.

So This feels like,

it’s in the fifties,

but the

catch is he is

dead

And

everything is gold.

Like he he wants whatever

he wants.

he’s getting

and.

he’s

like, how did I

end up

in heaven.

This is crazy. I’m this bank robber, horrific, whatever guy.

And then he says to,

he has

A guide or a guardian angel,

76and he says, the guardian angel. Look man,

Like,

this is all too easy.

Everything’s

fun, everything’s cool, everything’s leisure. I win every hand of blackjack. All the

money’s coming my way. I gotta

get a little action. He goes, I wanna go

rob something. And the guardian

angel’s perfect, I’ll

set

that

up for you.

He’s so

when are you gonna get there? And do you need a gun? And what should the po-

lice do? And the guy’s no.

I don’t want it. Stage managed. This is a nightmare.

And then finally the guardian angel says, that’s how it works [00:54:00] here.

And then he, says, you know what? If That’s, how it works here. then I prefer to go

to hell.

And then the

angel’s like, where do you think you are?

Georgia: yeah,

Ben_Tanzer: is hell. This is your

version of hell.

There’s no excitement.

Joe: So just a quick lookup, a nice place to visit.

77nick: Hell,

Ben

Tanzer: that

sounds correct.

And you know you don’t know

nick: nice place to visit.

Joe: Yeah, no,

nick: that’s the

Joe: episode there used to Google machines while Ben

Ben

Tanzer: There you go. So, yeah, I can make Twilight Zone references

endlessly. My brother and I, not only did my brother and I

Watch every episode.

nick: seen that.

Joe: I looked at

the little picture of the episode.

And

Georgia: it’s ringing bells.

Joe: I do remember this one yet.

nick: So Georgia, when are you guys gonna start your Twilight Zone recap pod-

cast?

Georgia: Right. I love that. I will come back and be happy to stupidly talk about

Ben

Tanzer: every episode

I’m

Georgia: I have said that we should do an episode just on the Twilight Zone.

Joe: Yes.

nick: I think that’s just a whole new show.

Georgia: That’s true.

78nick: That’s true. But honestly, like I, it, I absolutely loved when the pandemic had

us [00:55:00] closed down. Everything was at a halt. I was thriving. It was great. De-

spite everything else around in the world, having that time of leisure, right?

Like not being able to experience like an actual vacation before that.

I loved

it. It was,

Joe: yeah.

nick: it’s like having that forced leisure. I think that would be the closest thing.

Georgia: That’s a great example. of that. We

nick: had two of that, yeah, you weren’t able to do absolutely everything you

wanted to, but you had that time off to do stuff.

Joe: Yeah, no I think you could put a positive spin on it, but

nick: Joe, would you be able to deal with that? Like a forced leisure?

Yeah. I

Joe: have

a million hobbies,

nick: Oh yeah, you do. I

forgot about

that. That probably, I, the

Joe: limitation would be, alright, the supplies I need free or do I need, they’ll keep

working for

Georgia: See that.

it always goes back to the money. You have

Joe: just if you’re saying money is of no

object, psen, you [00:56:00] would hit

the

79Georgia: you’re

talking about like science fiction and like Just totally going out. That is science fic-

tion. A world where you don’t need money.

Joe: Yeah.

We touched

nick: about, we touched on

Georgia: even,

Joe: in the economics episode. We had this, in, in that episode and we talked

about the economics of star Trek. Because that was the idea. It was a post scarcity kind

of economic kind of model, which our guests on that episode, Omron said that was,

nick: he had a lot of lot,

Joe: a

lot of hand waving problems yeah.

nick: that

was the show that pulled him out. He was like, Nope, I can’t deal with this.

Yeah,

Joe: you’re

right because you get to that point where then the economics and we talked

about on there about, usually economics is boring and you spikes it up. But it was in-

teresting because you get into that, that if you take away these things like what are,

what’s the friction in society?

What’s this economic friction? What is the movement of goods and things like

that. Because at the end of the day,

humans

80do that. That’s what we do. And, [00:57:00] time in and time out through our histo-

ry, we found a way to. Make things, commodities and some way to trade and ex-

change these things.

That could be goods. That could be products. And I think we would enjoy our

force leisure, and then we would kill all the robots and clones and that would start

some sort of war between the clones and the robots. And then we get into a termina-

tor situation or matrix

and it just won’t,

we fall.

nick: Maybe

that’s how the

Joe: started.

Maybe it, it was like forcely, Hey, you guys can leisurely do what you do. And then

the humans were like,

no we actually don’t want

that. And then the machine said we don’t need you. We’ll use it as batteries, which

Georgia: So would you call that a broken future?

call

Joe: a very broken

nick: future.

Joe: future.

Yeah. That’s as broken as the future can get where, the stupid machines uses as

batteries. ’cause that’s, we’re a poor energy source. Nonetheless, that’s a different

nick: radical. Wait, you’re saying I’m not a [00:58:00] good energy source?

Joe: you’re not,

81nick: Damn

Joe: pretty wasteful.

nick: Thanks, Joe.

Now my trauma’s maybe that remains unproven in the be in the

Ben

Tanzer: best

nick: That’s

right.

Joe: No, but yeah, ‘

you, cause you get, we’re gonna kind come to the end here, but you do have this

thing, and I just, last point and the story is that, that trauma, between, being useful, ob-

solescence and, and poverty like, which is worse, right?

That you’re now replaced in some society. So we could take Ben’s story here and

the clone can replace the human completely, or the machine can replace the human.

So you go from poor,

you

go from poor, this poverty

situation and desperate to now being replaced. So the, the trauma and all that,

amplifies.

Can we just, can you

nick: edit

Joe: out the

human trauma, right? Can you create the clone and teach them to enjoy it? Or

force [00:59:00] leisure? And then get rid of the human the next point. And that’s,

Georgia: and also there’s also a Ray Bradbury episode. Remember

the one where he made a clone and then

his wife fell in love with the clone and they put him in a box or something.

82that

Joe: Ray Bradbury or

Georgia: was

Yeah, it was a ray.

Joe: that maybe you’re right.

Georgia: Yeah.

Ben

Tanzer: I remember that.

episode. Right. guy’s,

Joe: go ahead. And Ben.

Ben

Tanzer: I may be wrong about this, but of course I, you’re talking about Twi-

light Zone again.

Georgia: It was actually Ray

Bradbury’s presents or whatever

his

Ben_Tanzer: Oh, okay. Sorry.

Joe: that presents,

Ben

Tanzer: thinking about a particular Twilight Zone where this guy, this very

slumpy

guy. He,

Georgia: for it.

Joe: it.

Ben

Tanzer: Oh,

okay. Sorry. I did what?

nick: time.

Joe: she usually

brings

83Ben

Tanzer: Oh, no.

Okay.

nick: though.

Joe: So

Georgia: Ben, you’re like still in the thunder here. No,

Ben

Tanzer: Sorry, I do not

nick: go for it. Go for it. That is beautiful. You

Joe: You can steal as much thunder as you like as a guest

Ben

Tanzer: This like Very schlubby dude his

wife [01:00:00] goes away

to I don’t know what we call them anymore.

She goes away to lose weight.

And while she’s

away, he

buys a robot not quite a

blowup doll or a sex doll, but like a robot.

And she’s young

and attractive

and he gets to spend this like week or two with her. And he is got someone young

who’s

Fun to look at, but also

waits on him and treats him like he’s

a hero and he is not used to any of this.

And

Then he starts thinking,

do I even need my wife to come back?

84So this

Picks up this whole,

thread tonight,

and you are like, do

I even need

her to come back. And then she

comes back and, she’s, again, this feels so, antiquated, now, I apologize. But She

comes back and she’s lost all

this weight and

we don’t see her,

Maybe we see her

beforehand, she’s really attractive.

And he’s

oh, maybe I overthought this.

The

robot

thing is great, but look

at my wife now.

Now I

appreciate

her.

So then he

Starts getting into some weird,

exchange with Her and he is I was gonna

replace you.

85but now I don’t need to.

And Then she’s you’re gonna replace me.

And then she reaches behind his neck and she [01:01:00] turns off his switch

He had once been a young, attractive

robot,

and he had grown into this slovenly, middle aged dude, robot and she replaces

him. And then she pulls a younger robot out of a box,

and now she’s gonna live her best life. She was always the only human in the mix.

Georgia: That

is awesome.

And I can’t say I even recall that episode, I know. It’s, crazy.

Joe: Ray Bradberry Marionette Inc.

Georgia: Which one?

Nette? The one that he no, Ray Brad. The one I was

Joe: you’re talking

about it’s from Illustrated man. Marionettes Inc.

And that was that one. And it was that was a story where they get the

clone

and then the wife has it, and then it’s on.

If he has the wife, the clones, more affectionate, da. And then he wants to like, he

realizes that the clone is like falling in love ’cause the wife never gets him to do what

he wants to do. So he gets to clone to do all the stuff the wife wants to do. And then

he realizes that the clone. Is falling in love with his wife not doing the job,

nick: And I’m pretty sure this was a [01:02:00] Futurama episode too. I’m

Joe: Yeah, that’s right.

nick: the amount of times that it’s oh yeah, you can just build off

86this locked in a box

Joe: like the clone eight. They like a struggle. And then he gets locked in the box

in the basement, and then it’s like that’s,

Georgia: Yeah. you

Joe: really know,

like they’re in the bedroom and you think it’s the clone kissing the wife, but you’re

unsure who actually got locked in the box.

So is that little double take

Georgia: Wow. I’m actually,

I gotta find out. That was but I have to find out what the episode is that he’s talking

about for Twilight.

Zone. Oh yeah. No, ’cause

Joe: what To look

Georgia: I gotta do Some more Twilight Zone reason. You gotta have that

Joe: the mini the mini episode that we do.

Ben

Tanzer: You’re gonna find out later.

I completely,

made Up and I somehow combined,

you know, Ray Bradberry with weird science with my own book,

Georgia: And it

was awesome. weird science

Joe: reference. Wow. That’s a good

Ben

Tanzer: sorry, one of my longtime obsessions.

nick: haven’t seen that movie in a minute. I haven’t

Joe: either. No, I

Georgia: I have to say

87this

Ben

Tanzer: I’m guessing it hasn’t

aged very

Joe: very well. No,

Ben

Tanzer: seemed appropriate.

Joe: Yeah.

It was, yeah, I know.

I doubt it aged any of those movies in that timeframe. Probably [01:03:00] not. No.

Yeah,

Ben

Tanzer: Maybe not. Unfortunately only unfortunate that

we grew up. At least I grew up watching

them

and caused all kinds of long-term

damage.

Joe: going

the theater to see where it’s iron, so Yeah. That’s Yeah. I done.

Georgia: And

Nick’s gosh, you guys are old.

Joe: No, I, I don’t, I think we’re around the same age fan.

Ben

Tanzer: We are I might be a little older. If I didn’t see it in the theater, that’s

only ’cause I was seeing some

other crap test. A

eighties

nick: You

gotta

88Joe: mannequin

weird science. There was a whole generation of those movies.

If people don’t know what we’re talking about.

Proceed with

Ben

Tanzer: Apologies. Anyone who

was born after the seventies and possibly the eighties.

Joe: Cool. What were you saying, Georgia?

Georgia: No, I was just gonna say. Actually this episode, it really wasn’t quite as

depressing as I thought it might.

be.

Joe: We made this future of

clones and robots replacing humans. Very fun.

nick: Yeah.

I’m down for it. Yeah.

Ben

Tanzer: It can be

fun.

Joe: leisure.

nick: and forced

Georgia: leisure.

nick: Sign

me up. I just have a

feeling that the company’s gonna end up killing me, [01:04:00] as soon as they re-

placed me,

that would

Joe: be the

Ben

Tanzer: it shakes out, Nick is gonna be very

89happy. And Joe, you’re gonna expect to be killed. And that’s gonna be the, that’s

where things are going to land.

George Is gonna be,

fine. The rest

nick: I’ll be watching Twilight Zone in my

Ben

Tanzer: There you go.

nick: Inc.

Ben

Tanzer: It.

Georgia: All

right.

Joe: I think

nick: Ben, where, what plugs you got?

Joe: let’s go. You got a new book coming out

has come do so May 6th,

Ben

Tanzer: so May 6th, this new book after.

Hours Scorsese Grief

and the grammar of Cinema

drops. It’s Again, it’s a partially a grief memoir

partially

film

commentary

I’m not gonna call

it film criticism again, but it’s really

a Deep

dive into sort of, into the movie after hours.

90and

how I connected to my father,

in particular, who died fairly young. But both my parents, their love of Scorsese,

but trying to use,

the movie as a lens

think about both

grief, but also

how we become creative people. So my father was

an [01:05:00] Artist,

fine artist, And he never. Quite got the success he wanted.

though he was acclaimed. he loved him and he’s a

wonderful artist.

This whole idea of how

did he get

in his own way, But also

when you don’t get to live a full life, who

knows what opportunities are lost, and so I thought

if I could somehow write a

book

about all that that would be cool.

And I, I threw all

kinds of.

things in just, Joe, I didn’t even know you in yet there’s lists and

there’s interviews. I

Joe: God have lists

91Ben

Tanzer: It’s funny to do a whole callback and pull our episode together

here. One of the first interviews,

I did for the book

it was with an

author actually, also at the

Chicago Writers Association conference, Let’s just

write Jeremy.

Wilson is a good friend of mine,

And he said, this is a Frankenstein

of a book.

And I thought, okay there. it is. that’s gonna be the theme apparently. And so you

all brought that

back. I appreciate it. Apparently I’m

dabbling in

Frankenstein.

if that’s a thing.

but

Yeah.

the book’s Coming out. I’m really, I’m excited when [01:06:00] anything comes

out. I’m excited when

anyone says, oh yeah, we’d love to publish this.

That always feels like a small miracle, right?

Joe: yes.

Quick question.

nick: Do you have any pictures of your father’s art in your book or no,

92Ben

Tanzer: Not in this book. That’s an

awesome

question.

No, ’cause we just didn’t

Shake out like that. So now of course when I get it

reissued down the road, we’ll have to incorporate some Mike Tanzer art. Yeah.

Now that’s

seeming Like

a big problem. So Yeah. no, Not necessarily.

though. It was

funny,

I have this fantasy

where I’m

gonna do

A podcast.

where I’m gonna interview my brother. and my mom, both.

of whom I interviewed for the book, And

that we’ll talk about the influence of movies on the family

but I’ll record it.

And so I did, a, we did

a Test

run. It wasn’t intended as

a test run, but We had some technical, difficulties. but there was a moment.

where I was looking at, I was

looking at them on Zoom and

looking at my own reflection and all three of us had artwork.

93of my father’s behind us. And

that was not planned.

we’re in three different homes

And

we each had something over

our [01:07:00] That’s awesome.

Yeah. Can’t escape, the shadow. don’t Wanna escape. shadow, and definitely can’t

escape which great.

Don’t, so

Georgia: that makes me think of my other question.

What is your

podcast?

Ben

Tanzer: So

I do a podcast called

this

Podcast, Will change Your Life.

And

It is Long, it has become, it was

always

intended, but I don’t think I had any of this language.

It’s long form interviews with authors.

Certainly. I hope you all will come on and join me.

But yeah, just talk to different authors I’ve been, what I’m

proud of lately, I hadn’t really noticed it until.

94previous

book came.

out and this started

coming up, but the show is now in

its 16th year.

so it’s got some longit longevity long

longevity.

So, said longevity. That doesn’t sound right. Longevity,

Joe: I

Ben

Tanzer: doesn’t sound right. Longevity.

Joe: Yeah. I

nick: I dunno

what you’re talking

Joe: about.

Ben

Tanzer: you know what’s great about that? tell,

could see the word in my brain,

but I could not

get my to match

nick: that’s like the microwave. I

immediately thought, [01:08:00]

yeah, this

is a word. I’m just not that bright. I

get this. No,

Georgia: but I,

Ben

Tanzer: I used a word in a different interview recently,

95and as soon as I said it, I thought that’s

not a word. Then I got really embarrassed

because I was speaking

to someone.

much more erudite than me. Again, I

grew up in upstate New York in the seventies.

my public School education.

is a little

shaky, and I

paused and

I went. I apologized. There’s no way That’s a word.

Another person said, that’s okay.

You’re on a Podcast.

You can Make up any,

words you

nick: Anywhere if you want.

Georgia: I was gonna,

Ben

Tanzer: but

Georgia: I like that word too. And I think may.

Ben

Tanzer: feel free to use it. You don’t even have to

Reference me.

It’d probably be more embarrassing if you

Joe: Yeah.

You should reference. No. Yeah. No,

Ben

Tanzer: then people will know how dumb your

96guests are and let’s not, add

to that or at least how dumb guest

is.

Joe: guess. And yeah, I definitely, I’d speak for myself and maybe the, my other

cohost love to be on your podcast sometime and talk about,

Ben

Tanzer: Let’s

make happen. ’cause I like to, you know, the other thing I do is

that I love talking to authors

especially as they have New things coming out not required. But then

I also like to filter in just getting

podcasters on.

and talking

Why They

what they [01:09:00] do. Like I know

what I do.

I know why I do what I do. Maybe we’ll talk

about making, get

the Three of

you. on simultaneously. That would be a

nick: yeah. absolutely.

Ben

Tanzer: we do that?

engineer

nick: whenever you want.

Joe: whenever you want.

97Ben_Tanzer: Okay. This summer. How about let’s just commit to it this summer.

We’ll make this

Joe: We’re

nick: A hundred percent we’re

Joe: it here

first on a rabbit hole of research.

We’re gonna

all appear

on Ben’s podcast title, the,

Ben

Tanzer: podcast will change your

life.

nick: will change your

life. I

thought you were forgot

first. Actually,

Georgia: especially the episode, we’re on

That’s

really gonna change. things. We won’t

Joe: talking about broken futures, trauma and human condition,

nick: Oh, I thought we were gonna dive into the trauma. We didn’t get

to dive into

Ben

Tanzer: I, I it’s gonna have to be trauma focused

for sure. But then we’ll find other things like forced leisure to

Joe: Yeah.

nick: Are you pro force leisure or against force leisure before we

Ben

Tanzer: Oh, I am, as Soon as you,

98add the phrase forced leisure, I’m in whatever it is, whether it’s forced

unforced offered.

Again, as long

it’s

not some larger nefarious.

plot to replace all of us.

if it’s [01:10:00] really just an option to be,

I could handle leisure.

My wife always jokes

about this, given especially how much I

work.

She’s Always oh my God,

Nobody was born

for leisure more than you.

You’ll be fine. have so much

stuff You wanna do that? Doesn’t evolve going to work.

yeah, Nick, you and I, man, we’re simpatico here. I’ll be fine. I will be fine.

nick: Joe pro or con force leisure.

Joe: I’m pro force. I

don’t like

forced to anything. I’m just leisure. I just love leisure. But

yeah, so if you’re gonna force me to do le

99stop doing what you do and do leisure and then Yeah. No I got things to, to fill my

time with and I’ve got country wisdom, so I’m ready for any robot apocalypse, mete-

orite, apocalypse

nick: meteorite,

Ben

Tanzer: All the we, we embrace all the apocalypses.

Joe: Yeah. I’m there. So yes. I’m Pro Force Leisure,

nick: Georgia.

Georgia: Yeah. You don’t even have to

ask.

me.

And I’ll say I really enjoyed the, I really enjoyed COVID.

myself.

See

Joe: the problem with COVID. I was like the, I had

this, I had the letter from the governor or whatever. I still had to [01:11:00] go in.

I was, I forget what they call

Georgia: it. Essential maybe essential

Joe: Yeah. I had to go to the lab and keep microscopes up and pivotal research,

and then I got sick with COVID.

nick: Yeah.

Georgia: What?

Joe: I didn’t have a

good COVID experience. But that’s a different story for a different podcast. But

nick: all right then. So I think

Thank you so much

Ben. Free.

100Joe: thank

Ben

Tanzer: man. Thanks for having

me. What a blast. You guys are awesome.

Joe: And so yeah,

you have me,

Joe here.

nick: You got Nick.

Joe: You got Nick. We’ve got Nick, we’ve got Georgia

and

we’ve got our guest Ben here who joined us

nick: and we went down some traumatic

Joe: We went

down some traumatic ho with

nick: with

Georgia: little forced leisure thrown in, forced

Joe: leisure on the other end.

Yeah. You guys stay safe out there.

nick: Bye-Bye.

Joe: We love ya.

The Show Notes: Rabbit Hole of Research Episode 10: Time Travel is Weird

Nick and I talk about the Event Horizon, Groundhog Day, Evil Dead, Somewhere in Time, Final Destination, Handwavium, Encyclopedia Britannica, Handwashing, Video Game logic and more spacetime stuff.

Listen to Episode 10

Episode 10: Time Travel is Weird

This has no particular format; it’s just correcting or updating anything in the show we didn’t get a chance to fully talk about or things we had on the tips of our tongues and couldn’t get out as we recorded. As always, feel free to comment, and we will address stuff in future shows! Enjoy.

Don’t forget to Rate the show!

artwork by

Georgia Geis @atomicnumber14 https://www.instagram.com/atomic_number14/

Say hello and let us know:

If you traveled through time what Three Books would you take?

Favorite Time Travel Machine?

Is driving a car considered time travel?

What we drinking?

Nick and Joe shared a celebratory Leche Borracho: Bottle Logic Brewing

Images from the Fan Event held at Bean Me Up Roastery. And if you missed it, don’t worry we will do one again for our 1 year podcast anniversary!

Joe’s Show Notes:

Time travel: refers to the hypothetical concept of moving between different points in time, either forwards or backwards.

What is a black hole? a region of spacetime where gravity is so strong that nothing, including light and other electromagnetic waves, is capable of possessing enough energy to escape it.

What is a wormhole? a hypothetical structure connecting disparate points in spacetime, and is based on a special solution of the Einstein field equations

In Einstein’s theory of general relativity, making a wormhole is pretty straightforward: You just build a black hole and connect it to a hypothetical white hole (which is the exact opposite of a black hole), and boom, there you have it: a tunnel through space-time.

What is a white hole? a hypothetical region of spacetime and singularity that cannot be entered from the outside, although energy-matter, light and information can escape from it.

What is spacetime? a mathematical model that fuses the three dimensions of space and the one dimension of time into a single four-dimensional continuum

The Year Ash ended up in Evil Dead 3 is 1300 AD: Army Of Darkness

Evil Dead Timeline.

Time Bandits (1981)

We realized after recording it wasn’t Miracle on 34th street but It’s a Wonderful Life (the Christmas movie I was thinking about.)

HG Wells Time Machine movies; 1960 and 2002.

Is Final Destination a Time Travel Movie?

The Encyclopedia Britannica 15th edition with 32 volumes was last printed in 2010.

The Cotton Club

Kitty Pride Time travel by phasing.

The Flash time travel and the Multiverse.

Let The Ants Try. 1949 by Frederik Pohl (as James MacCreigh)

Young Marvels by Skottie Young, Dan Slott, Ruben Diaz

Earth has a rotational kinetic energy of 2.14×10^29 J. So You’d need a minimum of twice that much energy to stop and then start Earth rotating in the opposite direction.

Somewhere in Time (1980)

Superman: The Movie (1978)

Christopher Reeve

History of time travel Movie (2014)

See You Yesterday (2019)Produced by Spike Lee

Horology: the study of time and the art of measuring it. It involves the design, construction, and maintenance of clocks, watches, and other timepieces.

Chronometry: the science of accurate time measurement

MYTHICAL REFERENCES TO TIME TRAVEL

Hindu mythology, the Vishnu Purana mentions the story of King Raivata Kakudmi, who travels to heaven to meet the creator Brahma and is surprised to learn when he returns to Earth that many ages have passed.
The Buddhist Pāli Canon mentions the relativity of time. The Payasi Sutta tells of one of the Buddha’s chief disciples, Kumara Kassapa, who explains to the skeptic Payasi that time in the Heavens passes differently than on Earth.
The Japanese tale of “Urashima Tarō“, first described in the Manyoshu tells of a young fisherman named Urashima-no who visits an undersea palace. After three days, he returns home to his village and finds himself 300 years in the future, where he has been forgotten, his house is in ruins, and his family has died.
In Jewish tradition, the 1st-century BC scholar Honi ha-M’agel is said to have fallen asleep and slept for seventy years. When waking up he returned home but found none of the people he knew, and no one believed his claims of who he was.

Early examples of Prolonged Sleep Time Travel

The Year 2440: A Dream If Ever There Was One, (1770) by Louis-Sébastien Mercier.
Rip Van Winkle (1819) by Washington Irving
Looking Backward (1888) by Edward Bellamy
When the Sleeper Awakes (1899) by H. G. Wells

Early examples of Backward Time Travel

Chinese novel Supplement to the Journey to the West (c. 1640) by Dong Yue features magical mirrors and jade gateways that connect various points in time
Samuel Madden’s Memoirs of the Twentieth Century (1733) is a series of letters from British ambassadors in 1997 and 1998 to diplomats in the past, conveying the political and religious conditions of the future.
Charles Dickens’s A Christmas Carol (1843) has early depictions of mystical time travel in both directions.

Early examples of Machine Based Time Travel

The Clock that Went Backward by Edward Page Mitchell,which appeared in the New York Sun in (1881).
Enrique Gaspar y Rimbau’s El Anacronópete (1887) may have been the first story to feature a vessel engineered to travel through time.
H. G. Wells’ The Time Machine (1895) popularized the concept of time travel by mechanical means.

Time Travel Paradoxes

1. Grandfather Paradox: As mentioned earlier, the grandfather paradox involves a time traveler going back in time and preventing their own grandfather from meeting their grandmother, thereby preventing their own birth. This creates a logical contradiction because if the time traveler prevents their own birth, they would not exist to travel back in time in the first place.

2. Bootstrap Paradox: In a bootstrap paradox, an object or information is sent back in time, creating a loop where the object’s origin cannot be determined. For example, a person might travel back in time and give their past self a book containing information about the future. The question then arises: where did the book come from if it was never created?

3. Predestination Paradox: Also known as a causal loop, the predestination paradox occurs when a time traveler’s actions in the past inadvertently contribute to the events they were trying to prevent. This paradox suggests that events are predestined to happen in a certain way, regardless of attempts to change them.

4. Ontological Paradox: Similar to the bootstrap paradox, an ontological paradox involves objects or information that exist without having a discernible origin. For example, a person might receive instructions or blueprints from their future self, allowing them to create a new invention. However, the question remains: who originally created the instructions if they were never created by anyone?

5. Twin Paradox: In the context of special relativity, the twin paradox arises when one twin travels through space at relativistic speeds while the other remains on Earth. When the traveling twin returns, they find that less time has passed for them than for their sibling. This paradox challenges our intuitive understanding of time dilation and the effects of relative motion.

The idea of reversing the rotation of the Earth to travel back in time—pure Handwavium

1. Conservation of Energy and Momentum: Reversing the rotation of the Earth would require an enormous amount of energy and would violate the principles of conservation of energy and momentum. Even if it were somehow possible to reverse the rotation of the Earth, it would not cause time to flow backward.

2. Time and Spacetime: In physics, time is considered a dimension of spacetime, and reversing the rotation of the Earth would not alter the direction of time. Time is a fundamental aspect of the universe that flows inexorably forward, regardless of the rotation or movement of celestial bodies.

3. Causality and Paradoxes: Even if it were possible to reverse the rotation of the Earth and somehow manipulate time, it would likely lead to paradoxes and inconsistencies in causality. The implications of reversing time would raise significant philosophical and theoretical questions about the nature of reality.

Okay, that’s it for this episode. How’d we do?

You can always email (I do answer back), click the comment link below, or follow me online for real time tracking.

Rabbit Hole of Research Podcast Episode 4: Giant Animals Show Notes

Find the Rabbit Hole of Research Podcast here to listen

Episode 4: The Show Notes

What we drinking:

Joe: Phony Negroni —St. Argrestis

Nick: Water

Let us know:

What’s your favorite animal?

What’s your favorite giant animal movie?

Favorite color?

Leave a comment

Subscribe now

Technically any plane carrying the president is designated as Air Force One:

Air Force One (1997) movie

What is Dry January

Food of the Gods 1976 movie

Food of the Gods Novel by H.G. Wells

Let the Ants Try by Frederik Pohl (short story)

Where do sloths live?

Sloths are found throughout Central America and northern South America, including parts of Brazil and Peru

Who sings song—“You and me, baby, ain’t nothin’ but mammals So let’s do it like they do on the Discovery Channel”?

Bloodhound Group—‘The Bad Touch’

Aldi and Trader Joe’s history

E. L. Doctorow: Homer and Langley—universal newspaper

Seanan McGuire (Mira Grant) Into the Drowning Deep

Pushing beached whales into ocean?

Whalefall—Daniel Kraus

Largest land animal

The African Elephant (Loxodonta africana) holds the title for the largest land animal. Adult male African elephants can weigh between 5,000 to 14,000 pounds (2,268 to 6,350 kilograms) and stand about 8.2 to 13 feet (2.5 to 4 meters) tall at the shoulder. Female African elephants are generally smaller than males but still large compared to other land animals.

It’s worth noting that the size of elephants can vary, and these measurements are approximate. The African Elephant’s large size is a testament to its adaptation to diverse habitats across the African continent.

Largest sea animal

The blue whale (Balaenoptera musculus) holds the title for the largest sea animal and, in fact, the largest animal on Earth. Adult blue whales can reach lengths of up to 100 feet (30 meters) and weigh as much as 200 tons. These enormous marine mammals are filter feeders, primarily consuming small shrimp-like animals called krill.

The sheer size of blue whales is remarkable, and they are found in oceans around the world, making them a truly global species. Despite their massive size, blue whales are gentle creatures, and their conservation status is classified as endangered due to historical whaling practices. Conservation efforts are ongoing to protect and preserve these magnificent marine animals.

The size of animals is constrained by various biological, ecological, and physical factors. Some limitations include:

1. Metabolic Demands: Larger animals generally have higher metabolic demands. Meeting these demands becomes challenging, as it requires sufficient food intake, efficient energy utilization, and effective waste removal.

2. Support Structures: The strength of bones, muscles, and other support structures is crucial. Beyond a certain size, the ability to support the body’s weight becomes a limiting factor.

3. Respiratory System: Diffusion-based respiratory systems become less effective as an organism grows larger. Efficient gas exchange becomes challenging, potentially limiting the maximum size of animals relying on this mechanism.

4. Heat Dissipation: Larger animals face challenges in dissipating heat efficiently. This is due to the decrease in surface area relative to volume, affecting heat exchange with the environment.

5. Reproductive Challenges: Larger animals often have fewer offspring and longer gestation periods. This could impact reproductive strategies and population dynamics.

6. Predator-Prey Dynamics: Size affects the ability to evade predators or capture prey. Both extreme sizes, very large or very small, can be disadvantageous in certain ecological niches.

7. Evolutionary Pressures: Evolutionary pressures may favor smaller sizes in specific environments, promoting agility, rapid reproduction, and adaptability over large size.

8. Ecological Niche: Each species occupies a specific ecological niche, and the size of an organism is often adapted to its role in the ecosystem. Deviating too much from the optimal size for a given niche could be disadvantageous.

Sources:

• Schmidt-Nielsen, K. (1984). Scaling: Why is Animal Size So Important? Cambridge University Press.

The size of insects is constrained by various biological and physical factors. Here are some key limitations:

1. Exoskeleton: Insects have an exoskeleton made of a rigid material called chitin. As they grow, they need to molt and shed their exoskeleton to accommodate a larger size. This process becomes more challenging as the insect gets larger due to the increased structural demands.

2. Respiratory System: Insects rely on a system of tiny tubes called tracheae for respiration. As they grow larger, the surface area available for gas exchange becomes insufficient, limiting their ability to provide oxygen to all cells effectively.

3. Muscle Efficiency: The efficiency of muscle function decreases as insects get larger. The relationship between muscle strength and size is not linear, and larger insects may face challenges in coordinated movement and efficient muscle function.

4. Metabolic Rate: Larger insects might struggle to meet the metabolic demands associated with increased body size. Efficient energy utilization becomes a limiting factor, affecting overall viability.

5. Predation: Larger insects may become more vulnerable to predators. Their size makes them easier targets, and the advantages of being smaller, such as agility and concealment, become essential for survival.

6. Feeding Efficiency: As insects grow larger, their feeding efficiency might decrease. The energy required to forage for food may surpass the energy gained from the food itself.

7. Developmental Constraints: The developmental processes of molting and metamorphosis, which are integral to an insect’s life cycle, impose limitations on the attainable size.

8. Environmental Conditions: In certain environments, such as those with limited oxygen concentration, larger insects might struggle to obtain sufficient oxygen, further restricting their size.

9. Evolutionary Trade-offs: Evolutionary pressures may favor smaller sizes in certain ecological niches due to trade-offs between size, reproductive strategies, and adaptation to specific environments.

Sources:

• Chapman, R. F., Simpson, S. J., & Douglas, A. E. (2013). The Insects: Structure and Function. Cambridge University Press.

Limitations of size for Animals Living in Water:

1. Buoyancy: Water provides buoyancy, supporting the weight of aquatic organisms. This allows for the existence of much larger animals in water compared to on land, where the gravitational pull is a more significant constraint.

2. Respiration: Aquatic animals often have gills, enabling efficient extraction of oxygen from water. This allows for a more effective respiratory system, potentially sustaining larger body sizes.

3. Swimming Efficiency: The streamlined shape and reduced effects of gravity in water allow for efficient movement, enabling larger sizes for aquatic animals. Whales, for example, are among the largest animals on Earth and are adapted to life in the oceans.

4. Food Availability: Water ecosystems can support larger populations of prey items, providing a more abundant food supply for predators. This abundance can contribute to the development of larger species.

5. Temperature Regulation: Water provides a more stable environment for temperature regulation. This stability can support larger animals that might face challenges related to temperature fluctuation on land.

Sources:

• Alexander, R. McN. (2006). Principles of Animal Locomotion. Princeton University Press.

• Vogel, S. (1994). Life in Moving Fluids: The Physical Biology of Flow. Princeton University Press.

The concept of an animal growing 10 times its natural size in fiction, using a lot of Handwavium!

1. Extreme Nutrient Density: An exceptionally nutrient-dense food source could potentially fuel rapid and substantial growth in an animal. This might include a novel substance with highly concentrated essential nutrients that the animal can efficiently assimilate.

2. Genetic Modification: In a fictional context, genetic modification or engineering could play a role. Introducing genes that enhance growth, metabolism, or nutrient absorption might result in animals reaching sizes beyond their natural limits.

3. Magical or Extraterrestrial Influence: In a fantastical setting, magical elements or extraterrestrial factors could be introduced. For example, exposure to a magical substance or an extraterrestrial nutrient could trigger extraordinary growth in the animal.

4. Biological Anomaly: A rare biological anomaly or mutation that dramatically increases an animal’s growth rate could be part of the fictional narrative. This could involve an unexpected interaction between the animal’s genetics and a specific type of food.

5. Artificial Growth Stimulants: In a speculative scenario, the presence of artificial growth stimulants, either intentionally or accidentally introduced into the animal’s environment, could lead to accelerated growth.

Various mythologies, religions and fictions around the world feature giant animals, often portraying them as powerful, mythical beings or creatures with extraordinary abilities. Here are some examples:

1. Jormungandr (Norse Mythology): Jormungandr, also known as the Midgard Serpent, is a giant sea serpent in Norse mythology. It is said to encircle the Earth, grasping its tail in its mouth. According to prophecy, Jormungandr will play a significant role in the events leading to Ragnarok, the end of the world.

2. Nemean Lion (Greek Mythology): In Greek mythology, the Nemean Lion was a colossal, supernatural lion with an impenetrable golden fur. It was one of the Labors of Hercules to defeat this fierce lion.

3. Kaiju (Japanese Mythology/Fiction): While not strictly part of ancient mythology, Japanese kaiju are giant monsters often featured in modern fiction and films. Examples include Godzilla, Mothra, and Rodan, representing colossal creatures with destructive powers.

4. Garuda (Hindu and Buddhist Mythology): Garuda is a mythical bird or bird-like creature in Hindu and Buddhist traditions. It is often depicted as large, with the ability to carry off elephants. Garuda is a divine companion of the god Vishnu.

5. Fenghuang (Chinese Mythology): The Fenghuang, also known as the Chinese Phoenix, is a mythical bird in Chinese mythology. It is often described as a giant and colorful bird with various supernatural abilities, symbolizing grace and longevity.

6. Yamata no Orochi (Japanese Mythology): Yamata no Orochi is an eight-headed and eight-tailed dragon or serpent in Japanese mythology. It was defeated by the storm god Susanoo, and one of its tails contained the legendary sword Kusanagi.

7. Bunyip (Australian Aboriginal Mythology): The bunyip is a mythical creature from Australian Aboriginal mythology, often described as a large, amphibious monster inhabiting waterholes, rivers, and swamps.

8. Simurgh (Persian Mythology): The Simurgh is a mythical bird-like creature in Persian mythology. It is often portrayed as a large, benevolent bird with magnificent plumage, sometimes said to possess healing powers.

Okay, that’s it for this episode. How’d we do?

You can always email (I do answer back), click the comment link below, or follow me online for real time tracking.

Leave a comment

Subscribe now

Books:

I read six since the last time I checked in (not including the six books I read for the CWA BOTY contest). I read in a few genres: from Horror (Cynthia’s reimagining of the Pied Piper). Speculative and Science fiction (cloning and space drama). A great film study of one of my favorite movies, The Thing. A thrilling story about a diver that gets swallowed by a whale, and Seth Godin (marketing, leadership and living a creative life). These were some great reads to take my mind off the tasks at hand.

The Dip: A little book that teaches you when to quit: (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6547148) Seth Godin (Non-Fiction leadership)
Never Let Me Go(https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6334): Kazuo Ishiguro (Speculative Fiction)
The Thing (BFI Film Classic) (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1200879): Anne Billson (Film Study)
Children of Chicago (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/55878030): Cynthia Pelayo (Horror)
Whalefall (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/62919162): Daniel Kraus (Thriller)
Fractal Noise (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/62711641): Christopher Paolini (Science-Fiction)

Comics/Graphic Novels:

I read two graphic novel/comic series. I mentioned last time I went to CAKE (Chicago’s Alternative Comics Expo) with Georgia last month and one of the artist/writer I met was Megan, and her Lady Eudora book was a great fun read about a proper woman exploring the world of BDSM. I also read Big Sex Criminal (it’s been in my TBR pile for a year or so)—A couple can stops time when they have an orgasm and decide to rob a bank…

The Lady Eudora Henley (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/52740645): Megan Rose Gerdis (Erotic, BDSM)
Big Hard Sex Criminal Vol 1-6 (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/24484259): Writer: Matt Fraction, Illustrator: Chip Zdarsky (Sci-Fi)

You can follow me on Goodreads to see what I’m reading next:

Jotham’s Goodreads

What’s Jotham Listening to:

Music:

Just been digging some algorithmic curated apple playlists.

Podcasts:

Here are the four top podcasts I’ve been finding time for (Yes, this is the same list as before, but what can I say these are awesome):

Creative Peptalk by Andy J Pizza (A companion for your creative journey)
Story Nerd: Melanie Hill and Valerie Francis (Story theory and how to use)
The Shit No One Tells You About Writing: Bianca Marais, CeCe Lyra and Carly Waters (Behind the scenes look at publishing industry)

Okay, that’s where I’m at. I’ll try to update y’all every month on books, comics, and music (podcasts) that I’ve been digging! Maybe I need to add shows and movies??? What have y’all been digging?

Leave a comment

Find your next favorite book or author with these newsletter giveaways (Reader Magnets), new books, or virtual book-fairs:

Reader Magnet: The Earth is gone. Can the colonists of Mars forge a new society for humanity to survive?

Book: Only 0.99 cents until September 10th: A future society about to collapse. A reluctant hero alone in the world. When he suspects sabotage, will he abandon his newfound friend to save humanity?

Book: When the FBI can’ t help, an unassuming banker takes matters into his own hands to bring his son home

Reader Magnet: Three Prequel stories to The Dragon Eater

What’s been happening May-July 2023

What’s Jotham Reading?

Books:

I’m not sure how I did it, but I read 8 books since the last time I checked in. As you know I didn’t write a couple newsletters, so that’s where the extra time went. LOL. I read in a few genres: from Horror (cordyceps fungus zombies and supernatural revenge), literary fiction, and a healthy dose of Seth Godin (marketing, leadership and living a creative life). These were some great reads to take my mind off the tasks at hand.

M. R. Carey: The Girl With All The Gifts(zombies)
M. R. Carey: The Boy On The Bridge (zombies)
Elizabeth Wetmore: Valentine (literary fiction: CWA 2020 Book Of The Year)
Seth Godin: Purple Cow- Transform Your Business By Being Remarkable (marketing)
Seth Godin: The Practice: Shipping Creative Work (creative life)
Seth Godin: The Icarus Deception: How High Will You Fly (leadership)
Seth Godin: Linchpin: Are You Indispensable(leadership)
Stephen Graham Jones: The Only Good Indians(supernatural horror)

Comics/Graphic Novels:

Not only did I spend the past three months away from y’all reading novels, I also read 6 graphic novels. Everything from Manga horror, coming of age and a banned book. I also went to CAKE (Chicago’s Alternative Comics Expo with Georgia last month (I’ll be sharing finds from that next newsletter).

Charles Forsman: I’m Not Okay With This(Coming of age; Netflix series)
Maia Kobabe Gender Queer: A Memoir(autobiographical gender identity: Most challenged/ banned book)
Junji Ito: Tomie
Junji Ito: No Longer Human
Junji Ito: Shiver
Junji Ito: Deserter

You can follow me on Goodreads to see what I’m reading next:

Jotham’s Goodreads

What’s Jotham Listening to:

Music:

I was still digging my monthly subscription to Vinyl Moon. It’s like a mix-tape on vinyl, except they create an experience combining the curated eclectic mix of songs with story telling and artwork. It’s pretty cool and I’m excited to get more editions. ‘

I did do some record digging at a record shop recently, and I’ll share those gems next month.

Podcasts:

Here are the four top podcasts I’ve been finding time for:

Creative Peptalk by Andy J Pizza (A companion for your creative journey)
Akimbo: Seth Godin (a podcast about culture and our place in it)
Story Nerd: Melanie Hill and Valerie Francis (Story theory and how to use)
The Shit No One Tells You About Writing: Bianca Marais, CeCe Lyra and Carly Waters (Behind the scenes look at publishing industry)

Okay, that’s where I’m at. I’ll try to update y’all every month on books, comics, and music (podcasts) that I’ve been digging! Maybe I need to add shows and movies??? What have y’all been digging?

Leave a comment

Category: podcast

The Show Notes: Rabbit Hole of Research Episode 10: Time Travel is Weird

Episode 10: Time Travel is Weird

Say hello and let us know:

What we drinking?

Joe’s Show Notes:

MYTHICAL REFERENCES TO TIME TRAVEL

Early examples of Prolonged Sleep Time Travel

Early examples of Backward Time Travel

Early examples of Machine Based Time Travel

Time Travel Paradoxes

The idea of reversing the rotation of the Earth to travel back in time—pure Handwavium

Okay, that’s it for this episode. How’d we do?

Like this:

Share this:

Like this:

Episode 10: Time Travel is Weird

Say hello and let us know:

What we drinking?

Joe’s Show Notes:

MYTHICAL REFERENCES TO TIME TRAVEL

Early examples of Prolonged Sleep Time Travel

Early examples of Backward Time Travel

Early examples of Machine Based Time Travel

Time Travel Paradoxes

The idea of reversing the rotation of the Earth to travel back in time—pure Handwavium

Okay, that’s it for this episode. How’d we do?

Share this:

Like this:

What we drinking:

Let us know:

Show notes:

Technically any plane carrying the president is designated as Air Force One:

What is Dry January

Food of the Gods 1976 movie

Food of the Gods Novel by H.G. Wells

Let the Ants Try by Frederik Pohl (short story)

Where do sloths live?

Who sings song—“You and me, baby, ain’t nothin’ but mammals So let’s do it like they do on the Discovery Channel”?

E. L. Doctorow: Homer and Langley—universal newspaper

Seanan McGuire (Mira Grant) Into the Drowning Deep

Whalefall—Daniel Kraus

Largest land animal

Largest sea animal

The size of animals is constrained by various biological, ecological, and physical factors. Some limitations include:

The size of insects is constrained by various biological and physical factors. Here are some key limitations:

Limitations of size for Animals Living in Water:

The concept of an animal growing 10 times its natural size in fiction, using a lot of Handwavium!

Various mythologies, religions and fictions around the world feature giant animals, often portraying them as powerful, mythical beings or creatures with extraordinary abilities. Here are some examples:

Okay, that’s it for this episode. How’d we do?

Share this:

Like this:

Books:

Comics/Graphic Novels:

What’s Jotham Listening to:

Music:

Podcasts:

Okay, that’s where I’m at. I’ll try to update y’all every month on books, comics, and music (podcasts) that I’ve been digging! Maybe I need to add shows and movies??? What have y’all been digging?

Find your next favorite book or author with these newsletter giveaways (Reader Magnets), new books, or virtual book-fairs:

Share this:

Like this:

What’s Jotham Reading?

Books:

Comics/Graphic Novels:

What’s Jotham Listening to:

Music:

Podcasts:

Okay, that’s where I’m at. I’ll try to update y’all every month on books, comics, and music (podcasts) that I’ve been digging! Maybe I need to add shows and movies??? What have y’all been digging?

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