Joe: [00:00:00] Hey,

welcome back to the Rabbit Hole of

nick: Research.

Joe: We’re down here in the basement studio. You have me, Joe,

nick: you got Nick again.

Georgia: Georgia,

Joe: we’ve got Georgia, and we have a special guest. Take it away,

Ben

Tanzer: Hey,

it’s

Ben.

Good to be back

or good to be here.

You’ll tell me in the middle of our time. Travel travails. Anyway, Ben Tanzer here

from Chicago

Author, fellow

podcaster,

college professor, Low key consultant. Dude, honored

to be a guest tonight and talk about one of my own books

’cause what could be more

self-serving than that? So thank you all

for having

6me and

I am gonna repeat this in case we lost it

before, but

I am

so jealous of that basement vibe.

and we

don’t have a

vibe, so I’m excited about

that. Appreciate it.

nick: So when was the last time he read your own book? Do you read your own

book?

Ben

Tanzer: I will read them after they come out,

but I’m really, not someone, it’s funny, if I was an actor, I would absolutely watch

my own movies.

For sure.

ego

[00:01:00] is both fragile and strong enough.

at the same breath.

But

no, I don’t necessarily go back and read my own books. So one of

the tensions

is there’s

so many books to

read.

I feel like you’re

7gonna waste time on your own book.

dude. No,

haven’t,

I don’t read them often.

and I definitely haven’t read this one in a while.

so it’s fun to revisit it.

with the Three of you.

nick: Oh yeah. Yeah.

Joe: We’re

Joking a little bit ’cause we’ve had a few technical difficulties getting this episode

started all, all on

nick: the production

man, that still, I still whatever role I played in it. Lemme tell

Joe: No,

need to apologize. It’s

Georgia: a,

No. It’s all Joe’s fault. it’s a

nick: field.

I was blaming the imaginary sound deck.

You

Georgia: yes, fire

nick: Our production

Georgia: production manager

now.

8Joe: If anyone knows a good production manager, let us know.

Georgia: That

nick: so Joe, do you have any lists that you want to go

over?

Georgia: Yeah,

Joe: do have,

Georgia: Why don’t you introduce us to what

is this? episode? Yeah, so we be

Joe: talking about

broken futures, trauma and the human condition. And this is framed as Ben had

[00:02:00] mentioned around his novel orphans.

And so I just wanted to lay. The groundwork for kind of these words, broken fu-

tures, trauma, human condition, just so we’re all grounded, and then we can get into

our discussion again.

Future,

I put together this kind of definition as a future where progress technology, sci-

ence, economics, paradoxically degrades human dignity, e exacerbates trauma and

disintegrates social structure rather than uplifting humanity.

So I mentioned trauma. Traumas is emotional, physiological, psychological re-

sponse to an event or series of events that overwhelms an individual’s ability to cope,

leaving lasting effects on mental, emotional, and sometimes physical health and trau-

mas when something happens to you. And a part of you stays stuck there. And the hu-

man condition refers to the essential experiences, struggles, emotions, and existential

realities [00:03:00] that define human life, including birth growth, conflict, love, work,

suffering, and mortality. It’s not just our biology or culture, is a total experience of be-

9ing human across time and place. The human condition is the beautiful, terrifying, and

endless attempt to find meaning between birth and death.

Georgia: Hold on. This could be a long episode

Joe: Yes.

Georgia: Yes.

Joe: And we’re recording

now. But

yeah, I’m

gonna pause here ’cause I do have a list, but I wanna

Georgia: Oh, you have also have

Joe: I have a list too.

Georgia: Oh. Oh, wow. I think

Joe: prepared.

Georgia: Oh my gosh.

Joe: once

nick: Georgia,

Georgia: button,

nick: I have the

Georgia: analyst, but I think maybe we should,

Hear a little backstory

About Yeah.

You talk

Joe: orphans and how I came to this episode and getting Ben to talk about an old

book, like he knows

Georgia: not very old

10Ben

Tanzer: No, not so old. Anyway, yeah. There’s like,

backstory and then

nick: yeah,

Ben

Tanzer: I feel like

a young man. though. I don’t know what that says about,

the young men I’m raising. They’re really young men,[00:04:00]

but.

there

is Backstory and then a little extra backstory. The Backstory to the backstory

and I don’t know what you call that, backstory squared is something I was talking

briefly to

you guys about.

was,

I had to go on a work trip.

It was a big opportunity. but It was also something that was very important to my

boss. And at the time, one of my kids was going through a

hard time and really it was a terrible time to go away. Not that, I

didn’t think my wife could handle it.

Not that she can’t, couldn’t handle it, the idea of

leaving her to handle this by herself

and she’s go man. You’re cool.

Okay,

so I’m flying cross country

and I have a layover

out West and I call home

11just to check in and things were not going

well, and I felt sick.

Honestly felt physically sick.

It’s funny, Joe, you talk about

trauma and being stuck

on something that was traumatizing.

that phone

call and

I’m gonna use all your

key words here,

know, my wife was like, just, yeah,

Right on. And my

wife

was just like, Just go

And so there was this moment where I

thought,

should I have told my boss this isn’t something I can go do?

But [00:05:00] I also

realized I didn’t feel

I could do that, but that was

balanced out

by what I recognized was my own ego and my own need to go do this thing I was

asked

to do which was a big deal.

and I

12realized it

wasn’t one or the

other. It was a

both and I was embarrassed

by that. I was embarrassed

that I couldn’t talk to my boss.

and I was embarrassed that I still

wanted this. So I was thinking a lot about that and I was thinking this

would

make for an

interesting sort of

book, right? What does it mean

to need to

work, to want to work,

to have work

dictate decisions for you?

And I’ve always been

very work

oriented

and focused

and striving. So I was

carrying that idea around in my head, what does it mean to be someone who

goes away to

travel, to leave your family, to prioritize work? And then I was

out running

one night

13And I was

running along the lake and

I looked up and I don’t know what planet or star I saw because this is where I’m

very

derelict in

my larger

[00:06:00] education,

But I looked up in the sky and I thought,

wouldn’t

it be interesting if this guy who’s got this job?

that involves travel?

What

he had to travel to

Mars? Like what if it was really

thing, not just fly to California

like I did back

and forth in

72 hours. What if it was a whole journey? And then I started thinking, wow, what if

this was like

death of a

salesman meets the Martian Chronicles. What

if you could somehow take these ideas,

It’s about work, but it’s also

about building a new universe or a new world. Could someone be,

14Speaking about the

human condition,

could someone be

caught somewhere in the middle of those things? And by the time I got home, I

could really visualize a book that I had

just been slowly

noodling on for several weeks.

Right? A guy.

who puts work before his family, but he doesn’t just go away for say, 72 hours.

Right? It’s gonna take

months

to go back.

and forth to Mars,

Even if I’m of

Joe: about nine months to get there, right?

That’s

Ben

Tanzer: right. Thank you. So even if [00:07:00] I’m messing

with what reality is like it’s nine months.

that seems crazy.

Stay I shortened it ’cause it’s the

future. it still has

to be

six months.

or three months, whatever it

has to be,

it’s not

15a short thing. And then I thought,

wow, there’s a whole

book here. What would that look like? And why are we going to Mars? And it’s

funny,

I don’t consider myself any more prescient than anyone else, but

authors sometimes

have those moments. And One of my ideas, which is funny

Now

and

I think it’ll seem more clear

why it’s funny

is I thought,

oh, this is rich.

People deciding to colonize,

Mars

’cause They’re done

with the Earth, right? That seemed very real to me. Now, of course, rich people,

Elon Musk,

in particular talk about that all the time. so I’m sure I heard that Somewhere,

I doubt it was an original idea, but it wasn’t like a normal part of the of conversa-

tion, and I thought this would be really

interesting.

This guy who’s never going to be rich, who’s barely keeping it together, is helping

sell this property on a planet that’s not developed yet, for rich people

so they can

abandon [00:08:00] people

16like him and his family.

Then I thought that’s a fun conflict to mess with, right?

So now you’ve got the conflict of

how do we live on

this

earth?

That gets into the dystopia.

Joe

was referring

to how, why do we have to

Cater

to the rich and how do we support

our families? Like this guy does need to support his family.

Could he do it back on earth? not clear. And then I just started playing that out. So

whatever point you all are in the book, that’s the sort of

that’s the

path I wanted to follow. The torture the human condition

of,

I need to do this, but do I really need to do this? ’cause that was my feeling.

Did I really need

to go do

what I did? So this guy’s a lot more extreme. He is going to Mars, but he is also,

the situation’s a lot more dire

for him in

terms of

cash

17flow

and he owes people money

and so there’s another dynamic. There’s a sense of violence.

and dread Over his shoulder all the time as well.

nick: he’s doing, what he, yeah, he just needs to do what he needs to do to sup-

port his way of living. And

Ben

Tanzer: love about that,

Nick, sorry. not [00:09:00] to cut you

off, but what I love about That

is that’s absolutely true.

And it still raises the question.

Is he

absolutely. doing? Is this The only thing

he could do, like

I frame it

like,

that’s how it feels

for him, and I

think that’s important,

but

Right. He’s doing what he has to do, but he is also choosing the most extreme way

to do,

it.

But we don’t

Georgia: I’m

sure he thinks

18Going to Mars. That’s pretty, cool. yeah

Joe: and

nick: when I was reading it I was picturing like, yeah, there could be other options,

but for him, this is the option. Like this is gonna help get as much of his debt paid so

he can keep surviving.

I don’t know if that was where you were going with it and

clearly now I can

Ben

Tanzer: No, I really wanted it to feel, yeah,

I wanted it

feel desperate

also,

It’s interesting to me

as a writer

as a thinker, as a fellow podcast or like desperation takes on so many shapes and

forms and

there’s so many layers, right? Like I had,

a gig

again, that’s what [00:10:00] prompted this.

was desperate for

it to go well,

but my family’s livelihood didn’t depend on it.

on the other hand,

I didn’t wanna deal with my, boss, so

I felt slightly desperate, but I also

19felt desperate with the feeling of, man, are you deserting your family and I

really didn’t want that feeling, but that’s also my own guilt and

shame.

And again, my family was fine. That’s the other

thing. Right?

My family was fine. I just thought

nick: Everyone survived.

Ben

Tanzer: Everyone

survived.

Not only did

Everyone survive, But they’re still all in the same apartment. I left them in all

those years everybody lives

at home again, so I know it

worked out

Joe: and I wanted to frame it a little bit and, if your story kind of takes a bent, but

the little sci-fi kind of thing, especially as we barrel towards ai,

robot automation and then maybe future thinking and getting the realm of hand

avium, cloning and replacements.

And that was where, I had the list of things to talk, in this world. Because not only

[00:11:00] maybe, in this future world, you have to do what’s best for your family, and

maybe that’s off world. But, like when, during World War ii, when the men went to the

front lines, people had to backfill in and take jobs.

So what if the backfill

The

20reason you can’t get a good paying job here on earth is because machines have

taken those and, or clones, can replace, you also,

Ben

Tanzer: Yeah, that’s that, Oh, sorry.

go ahead.

Joe: go ahead. No. Go forward it. That’s

Ben

Tanzer: I was definitely playing with that as well.

right? They have, even though they’re,

borderline,

I don’t think

they’re poverty stricken. they’re working

class

Their apartments

still automated. There’s still a Robot

vibe that takes

care of things and

there are robots

all

over town, because again,

you get to cut down on the workforce. The other thing I was really Interested

in around class issues,

and work.

was that there, it’s

not just, there’s no middle class,

there’s almost no

jobs that exist in the middle.

Right.

21You’re either [00:12:00] rich

and

running

Joe: you just poor.

Ben

Tanzer: Or you’re poor.

And I thought

that is where the country this felt

like,

this 10 years ago

to me, that’s where the country’s

heading. Last night

I got

home really late from

class and

I almost

got run down by some mechanized

delivery. thing. I don’t even know what you call those. It was zipping down the

sidewalk,

Georgia: Did it

Ben

Tanzer: 25 miles an hour.

Georgia: Oh, did it look? Were you walking? And then it went by you?

Joe: looked like a little rover,

Georgia: Yeah.

nick: it

Georgia: it look like a ice box or a cooler

Joe: on wheels.

22Georgia: Yeah. Like a robot Cooler.

Joe: Yeah. So our

Ben

Tanzer: that means Somewhere in my neighborhood.

some Delivery person did not get that gig. So it struck me that this is an interest-

ing

disparity

to explore and

then I don’t know if

you were alluding to this, Joe,

but the other thing that adds a level of tension for me in

the book

is that the guy.

When they send you away, they

Clone you

temporarily.

So not only

are,

you know

your family

not

missing and

this plays into my sitting in this airport, [00:13:00]

they not only don’t

miss you on a personal level, anything you would’ve.

done,

23support the family.

You’re

Someone,

some version of you is doing

Joe: And that was a was that Twilight Zone episode?

Georgia: No Remember we was that Black

mirror,

Joe: was that a Black Mirror

Georgia: Yeah,

Like more Recently there was the one where did you see the episode? Where

they’re in space together, but then it was a, was it a robot?

Yeah. They had It was a robotic. Version of themselves still at home,

I home

Joe: doing all the home stuff. And then they could download themselves

Georgia: into

the robot.

Joe: then

nick: like that

just makes it all more expensive. No.

Joe: I

guess it

nick: on the

Georgia: instead, right?

Joe: Or what, like

Georgia: that was a really good Black Mirror episode. that was,

24They’re They have that future technology bent to ’em and but you have that that

feeling there because you get into some interesting questions that in this. Zone. What

does it, if we think about that human condition, what’s it mean to love right now?

Joe: If you go off and you now have a clone, take your [00:14:00] spot or in this

black mirror where that happened. Also do you become,

Georgia: well

Joe: do you, can you fall in

love

with the clone and does the clone have

Georgia: Well, Okay.

I need to make some sort of distinction.

Now, a

clone. Is an actual human being that just has the exact same genetic

makeup.

Joe: True. Yes.

Georgia: how

I’m not, I guess I’m

trying to picture

how that works, because,

Joe: so

I don’t

know

How Ben or let’s not pick on Ben, but the, on the

nick: story,

Ben, let’s pick

25you

Ben

Tanzer: Oh no. Pick on

Ben.

Ben’s totally

Joe: yeah,

nick: I guess you’re here

yeah.

Joe: But

how was the cloning performed?

Because there George’s so a clone in particular is just a genetic copy of the origi-

nal. The problem with cloning in a way, it’s usually portrayed, and we did the cloning

episode last season. Is that the base memories of the original. Aren’t also necessarily

uploaded. So you have nature versus nurture kind of thing.

So the clone And how do you get an

Georgia: And also the clone has to

[00:15:00] then go from they’re a baby and they have to, go to be an adult.

So obviously In this situation, that’s not

plausible probably. Right.

to wait till that

Joe: waving. So

Georgia: the clone actually is like a copy that just happens at the time.

They

need it.

nick: I’m so lost on this

Ben

Tanzer: They, they, yeah. So my, my, I,

Joe: all the science and

26Georgia: full detail.

Ben

Tanzer: I did I did I mention to you guys that I was an English major and then

I went to social work school or grad school. So yeah, my science skills

Are slim,

but the way I, envisioned it was certainly

that they

bring you into the lab and

they’re creating a version of

you that’s good.

for six months or more.

And actually to your point, I’m glad you

brought this up ’cause I remember being conscious about it whether I pulled it off,

I’m gonna leave to the experts in the

room, but it’s a, g they’re using your DNA to create a copy, that’s a Genetic similar

similarity, that’s not the word I want.

But

to g [00:16:00] genetically similar and not, e not able necessarily to tell apart

though I

think

part

of the vibe is that

It’s a clone because there’s something missing, in terms of the sort of Energy or

heat or

whatever your significant other, whatever vibe they give off,

you can tell the

difference. But in

27my case, I thought it was important

that they also downloaded your memories so that the clone.

Is it necessarily looking to literally, but this is an interesting question.

Replace the person, but they can

be available

to offer solace and Conversation and nostalgia.

The question about

love is fascinating

’cause what I thought would be interesting is less that the significant

other might fall in love with the clone, but that at

a certain point, things

just start to blur that

it was less

about, falling in

love and Forgetting. that there’s a difference that I thought seemed Possible. To

me, If

you felt abandoned if you

were isolated.

And then this identical version is just

Why. think about them. We, you, we were thinking about the spouse or the part-

ner, [00:17:00] but if you have children that are younger they may not know the origi-

nal at all and become totally, in love with this replacement parent

nick: And then when you come back, like you don’t have those memories with

your child, right? You’re

like, oh, I’m sorry.

Joe: the memories back

28nick: uploaded? Do they go all right from,

Joe: January,

20, 28 when you left for Mars, you’re clone. Now we’re gonna give you all the

memories that they had and when you

came

Georgia: we don’t wanna ask every specific question about the book ’cause we

gotta read

Joe: I don’t know. Maybe this isn’t in the book. I don’t Well, but I,

nick: can say no spoilers

Joe: and let’s move along. Like I answered this in the

book.

Ben

Tanzer: spoil spoilers is good, but I

honestly, I

say this

with affection.

you all are going as far as I thought about

it but there’s definitely steps beyond.

It’s interesting, like with the children,

one

thing I

thought about, which I

just, I love

that you,

brought up children is that

one of the strengths

29of the clone, and clearly I was

projecting here

that the clone actually can be calmer and more patient. than [00:18:00] Maybe we

can be as a parent. That

one of the things

you’re building in

is the.

importance Of a clone bringing

sort of peace and equanimity to the house. Because again, you’ve already had this

person.

stripped away. So the

goal

And the goal of

the corporation who, the,

protagonist goes to work for, they need to keep people happy. And they need to

keep the people

at home happy. So,

part of my sense was, and again,

my own projection, right?

I was a parent of small kids

and I was terrible parent that

these people would

also have

more patience,

which is

30also nice for a significant

other. They can

be calmer. So I had this idea they would be better versions of us.

Georgia: And

then also.

Okay, so the person’s away

at Mars doing their job

and this clone

is at home. They don’t need to go to work

because, that’s right.

Because the That’s right. Other per, so then are they just at home all the time? Like

being

like almost like

a stay at home dad or whatever or mom or, however, this I’m just saying dad, be-

cause we were talking about it being a man, But but then that makes a [00:19:00]

huge difference if all of a sudden your only thing

to replace that person and be at home all the time.

And not

nick: they actually just hide

out in the closet.

I’m just curious

Georgia: oh, and then I don’t

expect you to an yeah.

Ben

Tanzer: Whatever the in-between place

is. Not quite hiding out, but yeah, no, not going to work either cleaning the

31house, chilling out,

nick: You go hang out at the

cafe.

Ben

Tanzer: Development.

Georgia: was gonna and I still have one more question about the clone. I’m sorry,

This

is just like, fascinating to me.

Joe: Let’s, figure it

Georgia: Is the clone a human being? It’s the clone

then after

the,

nick: different right

Georgia: after these six months, Do they

just like

disintegrate or, That’s what I’m saying. What’s their

Joe: agency

Georgia: and is it a human, right?

nick: The old yeller him and just take ’em out back.

Joe: Have,

nick: you

Georgia: can they be killed? If you clone

Joe: sheep,

right? It’s still a sheep.

Or if you have a pet and you go to

32clone it and it’s a dog, it’s still, we consider

Georgia: still a dog.

Joe: take a human. And you clone it. This becomes the ethics, and this is bioethics

1 0 1 here, [00:20:00] is that if you clone a human, then that human should have the

agency and the rights of its fellow people, right?

Georgia: Gosh. that’s

Joe: What

you would do. So yes, it

is a human,

and then you would have to make the parameters.

So if you had a disposable human, then that would be everyone agreed upon that.

In an in ben scenario, if you had a rich class. And a poor, and they just want the poor

people to go do their bidding. Then they might either a, give the clone some rights

that they can then go off and be a poor person and join a poor people group.

Or they just go, you know what, this clone, it’ll die. And it’s, it

has

Georgia: it’s like a self.

That totally is

ringing these bells which

Joe: Ding. You can ring my bell. Can’t,

Georgia: I

can’t bring it. Actually, into my

nick: for that. Don’t,

Georgia: But there’s a story I

33watched, we

watched where they

made a clone because the person was gonna have like terminal illness and die.

and then they made like a clone. But then that person ended up [00:21:00] living

But then everybody liked the clone. The clone better, Yeah yeah.

nick: That has to be harsh. Like

I don’t, have to be, I don’t,

Joe: that’s in Ben’s kind of scenario, the clone is actually much more likable.

Maybe if you’re

A-hole and you go off

and the clones like

lovable and,

a joy to be around, you

might go, you know

what?

You can stay on Mars and keep sending a paycheck because we got the sugar

daddy in the closet over here, and.

Georgia: We’re just

Ben

Tanzer: So now I’m gonna be very interested when one of you reaches the

end of the book and

you can tell me.

what you think Because this does play

into the ending of the book

for sure.

It also raises this question, you guys are all both saying

34it and dancing around it not dancing around it like in a cryptic way, but not know-

ing the

answer. And so I

don’t know the answer

either, but one of the things I was so intrigued by is

how

ultimately

replaceable is

everyone. And again, when you Filter it through the lens

of work.

And

I spend a ton of time thinking about work,

[00:22:00] Anyway,

a way

if you’re not the

boss, you’re not the

owner,

then everybody’s expendable.

And

One of the things, I’ll do my own callback, which is very self-serving.

This particular boss I

had, who I really liked. I wanna add that, if that may be unnecessary. He is not

gonna listen to this probably, but other people will,

He won’t, He won’t

for sure. I’m sure he is. Never heard a podcast, we’re

35all

expendable and there is a part Where you want to turn

down a job. And again,

this was a pretty

big job

I had at the time.

I worked in

the nonprofit universe. Let’s not confuse it with working at like CocaCola, or some-

thing.

There

was always this sense, of I could be replaced anytime. It doesn’t

matter that I, have a certain knowledge base now, or

institutional memory or there are people around the.

country who consider me

To be the expert in this area

or that area.

If the boss decides, you’re

done. And so I also

wanted to play with that

sense that

we’re all expendable. So

in this story, certainly the replacements for the people traveling

are considered expendable

until, Meaning[00:23:00]

we don’t know how long they’re going to go necessarily.

but

36the idea is when the person comes home.

The

clone

is done. and they will move the clone

Into some other,

job.

Joe: say

also if the person that goes to the Mars,

nick: cheaper for the company to just not send them back and,

Have it crash

Joe: Or Right. You don’t

have to

even deal with it. You go, oh, they died on Mars and, sorry. And they can just keep

working on Mars.

And I think this gets into, as we’re talking, thinking about you, you start to blurt a

line of, into slavery, right? You start you go from poor with agency to

agency and almost like the clones and the person sent to Mars,

I guess they’re getting a paycheck at some level, but you begin to, if you don’t

have rights to

nick: Even the company could own that spot that so it they’re not paying anyone.

They’re right. That’s right. Paying themselves. All right, cool.

Joe: It’s

Like when you go, oh,

you, you

37get $10, but you gotta [00:24:00] pay. Nine

50 to rent the apartment you live

nick: in the company, man.

So Really?

And then it’s

Joe: cents to get your feet eh, and then it’s, another

20 cents for clothes.

So you’re actually owe me,

Another hour of work.

So I think you do get

into these really

interesting a class,

nick: based outta history that you know, has already human

Joe: history. That humans aren’t

good stewards of labor and money and economics.

Georgia: or pretty much anything. But anyway

nick: let’s go with your trauma, Georgia. What trauma do you have with this one?

Georgia: But I wanna ask how are most of the

stories that you write

science fiction or

was

this something different for

you?

Do you know what I

Ben

Tanzer: That’s a great question. no, this is definitely

something.

38different.

had a moment this, when I was on this run. I wasn’t planning on writing something

science fiction, but

when I looked up and saw, and I was a voracious science fiction reader all

Georgia: All

Ben

Tanzer: All

through childhood, high

school, college, maybe I’ve slowed down

in adulthood.

But it was a genre I was [00:25:00] completely wrapped up in.

But this is also the first thing that I thought, let’s

try to double down and make this

science fiction.

what? And

Again and again, we have authors here, I’m not the only one. You

start thinking about your own

work.

I know I was at

the time and I thought, okay, how do I do a thing?

I believe

I do well but bring some new

wrinkle to

it, Right, Or wrap it.

in a new layer. And

39maybe,

and again, some of this was excitement and some of this is the desire

to create cool stuff, which I’m always trying to do.

Things

people enjoy and react to.

And we can have conversations like this.

To me, this is very, a very

peak reason. I would try to write that kind of

book.

’cause then I,

get to talk to the three of you and I don’t have all those answers. Right. I

thought about them and took copious notes whatever.

But no. So that was

the first time I tried that.

I felt like in that case,

And I

don’t usually

traffic very much an

inspiration.

I think about the

writing, like

work, like

today we sit down, we get back to work,

We’re on this thing. But that time it [00:26:00] really,

hit me

like,

40let’s make

this feel

not feel science fiction. Let’s

remove ourselves from

this planet. and start building something else. And

so it became science fiction. And I’m thrilled because again, I

nick: and it feels so human too. Like it

Ben

Tanzer: good. like it is

to hear that. like a, as I said, it was the entire time I’ve been reading, I’m like, oh,

this story doesn’t have to take place here.

nick: It could take place anywhere.

Joe: Yeah.

Georgia: So the univers, The universal human. Yeah,

nick: exactly. It’s a human story that’s made sci-fi.

Georgia: And I think a lot of times people think, oh, I’m not into sci-fi ’cause

it’s This or that. And I think, no, I think it can be a very approachable Yeah.

Like relatable thing.

It’s

nick: covering something that

very social forward, being like, okay, we’re gonna make this easily digestible. Not

saying that it’s, but it’s

Ben_Tanzer: dude. I

think actually to create [00:27:00] something interesting that’s digestible would

be awesome to me. I think,

that’s

41Joe: yep. just didn’t know if I was gonna be like, oh, man, I’m just insulting you.

Georgia: too. I

Joe: when a lot

of people say, because I I write in a speculative sci-fi genre mostly.

But I think when people go, I don’t like sci-fi, I think they’re thinking of hard sci-fi

and that gets bogged down. It’s like fantasy. There are fantasy novels. I get bogged

down into explaining. And I don’t wanna get in any trouble, different classes fairies

and trolls and,

And

there’s pages and pages of that, and the story kind of seems to slow down.

There’s people that really enjoy that.

nick: with all the lore

Georgia: Science, but

Joe: fiction that moves, it’s character driven, plot driven in a science that sprinkled

in there either

in a very loose way, very handwaving way, where it’s just a lab, DNA

clone, boom, I’m done. Or, myself, I

try to go a little bit more into it, but very, like the, conversational, very, bring it

down and fit it in, weave it into that.

The dialogue and through the narrative to have the world building happen. And I

[00:28:00] think that’s, I think someone who had

nick: big ideas

Joe: and it was interesting, Ben, you said you were a reader of sci-fi back in the

day and talking, I just thought about Isaac Mov and his robot series,

which really, that was the

crux of it.

42These big ideas

and the science was in there, but the big idea was that, it besides the detective, da

and their adventures and,

But it was more the society was

This kind of place where we had the classes and machines had taken over a lot of

jobs. And so people were very anti, had this luddite kind

attitude towards the robots that were replacing them.

And

then the robots

seemed to gain sentience, right? At some level. And it was like, how do we control

this thing? And that’s gonna replace us potentially.

And our homes and our lives. And so

that, that was ve interesting there, this kind of

the classic

example of this kind of dynamic that you are exploring.

So I tethered back

fast [00:29:00] forward a little bit, maybe early eighties Blade Runner, the dispos-

able kind of worker

disposable, when I was thinking, what

if your story reversed that you got cloned and then your clone

went off with no agency, so you got paid maybe some

sum. Oh, Ben, he’s really good at X, Y, and Z.

Georgia: Hey

Joe: can we clone you for,

A hundred k and then we’re

43sic,

gonna send your

clone off

and then your clone now has this eight no one’s written this story, I’m gonna

write it.

Ben

Tanzer: say, yo, this story needs

to be

Joe: you know what? Nevermind,

Ben

Tanzer: you are really, you are these whole series of

Comments, speak to what

tend to circle back to.

whether it’s conscious or not. You mentioned the human condition. The most ba-

thing

anything I write,

is trying to understand.

how

we, any of us

Exist day to day,

how we cope.

That somehow to me, the quotidian stuff, going to buy groceries or fighting

with your

Or, taking your

significant other to the doctor.

that Those are equally important.

44They’re important. If you can figure out how to talk,

about them, that how we work

[00:30:00] and how we’re denied

work and how we deny

ourselves things.

and that this

all plays out. And

then in this story, I just thought, there’s this sci-fi

element, right.

I’m gonna still try to do

what if Hopefully,

well, but

Can

you tell it through this different

lens? So that was really conscious and

It’s only recently that I had

another idea that is in that lens, and so I’ve

been pursuing that.

And it’s interesting early

And I’d never had this

reaction, before. I thought,

oh, I’ve got a sequel for

this book. And it looked like it was

going to go forward

And then

45that fell

apart for a variety

reasons. so I shelved it and then over the pandemic, I pulled it off the shelf.

Though Obviously

it’s a metaphorical shelf it was sitting in a file

Joe: Yeah we get

Ben

Tanzer: But I started thinking, okay,

That sequel thing is not going to happen, but there’s some interesting ideas. here.

So it’s only After 10 years, that I’m, working in that potentially

We’ll have to see if somebody wants the book, like in that

genre again.

But I always do come back to work and coping and,

thinking. and Yeah. sorry.

Georgia: Oh, I was gonna ask,

so as far

as bringing in the [00:31:00] science of the science fiction, how did you approach

that, since that’s not something that you typically write in, is that, did you have to do a

lot of research or?

Ben

Tanzer: So

that’s an

awesome question. ’cause I probably should have done More research

what I did, and in essence,

cheated a

little bit.

nick: your

46Joe: now, like at the rabbit hole of research and we

Ben

Tanzer: So it’s funny. Yes, I’ll be, trust me, I’ll be leveraging this relationship

next. You all are stuck with me indefinitely,

Georgia: And I think by that, Joe means himself. Okay.

Ben

Tanzer: then

Georgia: I

nick: don’t think they

Georgia: and I can, help you. can we?

nick: I got my take advantage of Yeah.

Ben

Tanzer: big brain

going

nick: part.

Georgia: We can

help you in the human condition. part. The human

nick: trauma. I got you.

Joe: Nick’s got you with coffee. It’ll keep you coffee

enough.

Ben

Tanzer: All right,

Joe, You,

are now officially a consultant. But what I

did Do

you know, and again, I’m always doing low key research, if I

have an

idea

especially

47with a scifi book or you’re thinking forward,

I’ll

look something like, I’ll have the idea first, then I’ll look it up.

[00:32:00] and see how

reasonable Has

anyone ever talked about that?

I had to back it up.

Could I do it’s like

You said

It’s gonna take nine months to get to Mars. So

I looked that

up at the time. I don’t remember what I looked up, but I

thought, okay, but what I

really

did which is such a cheat, is that when

I was,

excited about an early draft,

I sent it

to a friend.

of mine who’s a science

fiction And I

was like, just tell me where I’ve got it wrong.

And

that was a,

really,

48interesting He was also

at the

time

working

for a scifi, publisher. And so I was semi pitching. him, semi

picking his brain. but I really wanted

him to react.

to things and it’s funny. ‘

cause

He did react.

to whatever I had written down for how quickly you could get to Mars and he’s

just f no, whatever I said at the time. And then he gave me a number, like nine

months and I thought,

okay.

is this future enough where I can cheat and make it, three to six

months? So I was playing with all that, but

really had him

run.

me through The

ringer.

do you think is,

As a published guy, human, what,

Where am I

so far [00:33:00] off?

base,

49Because I was really interested in that.

Joe: Yeah. It’s really interesting when you George,

Georgia: oh, no, I’m sorry.

Joe: and I was gonna say, it is interesting when you get into.

sci-fi

and you start going down I think it’s anything if you get too far away, you’ll pull

people out of the story and they’ll go, hold on.

That doesn’t make sense. I even,

nick: like, how much of the world building do you have to add in?

Joe: I also

think like any expert topic, if I wrote in my story about coffee roasting and I was off,

I didn’t consult Nick over here and he reads the book, he would get pulled out if I

make some reference about that or something in the story.

And I think that’s always, writers have to be careful not just science, but in any top-

ic. If I’m talking about a nonprofit organization and this is what we’re gonna do. I

should talk to Ben or Georgia here who have dealt with nonprofits or organizations to

make sure that I’m not just saying something.

Totally. Because if you read it, you’ll just pull you, you’ll get pulled outta that story

and go, hold on, that’s not,

lemme look that up on Google. And [00:34:00] then,

if it’s wrong, you go forget this story. If

that’s

Georgia: And I think

nick: it’s interesting.

Georgia: yeah, people

nick: out

50Joe: listening

who write,

Talk to,

Georgia: I, that’s actually

exactly what I was gonna ask you, Joe, like, how important is it to get the science

right?

nick: See, but I don’t know, like I, if, all right, so using that is an example of you

have a coffee roaster stuff and you didn’t consult, right?

But I feel like that’s such a small percentage of people,

Georgia: right?

They’re

Joe: you, you’ll be surprised how many folks

would go back and go, I think that’s wrong. I think

it’s gonna be small.

nick: a lot of that stuff is it isn’t science. Like I have all my notes and stuff, but

there’s so much human error and each person is gonna be doing it differently That.

You can make an argument for damn near anything to be able to write it down.

Joe: Yeah.

nick: Yeah. Just saying like on an argument basis, you can be like, alright, I can, I

think this is exactly how [00:35:00] I do it. I have it at a low temp and I drop it all the

way up. Or bring it all the way up, not drop

Joe: Yeah. See,

You’re already but I

nick: think

Joe: but also

51just saying that you have to have a little domain knowledge about it. Because

if you

don’t, then it,

Georgia: I guess it depends, I think it depends on how central it is to the story. If

it’s, you know what I’m saying? It’s, but

Joe: yeah, in, in terms of

like science stuff pet peeve of some shows, they get in the lab and they get like

DNA results in 10 minutes or whatever, and they solve the whole case that I go, that’s,

no, you’ve never worked in a lab.

Obviously you, you didn’t consult someone who works in a lab. It, I understand TV

time and all that,

but

it also just gives this air of did they actually consult somebody? Did they just make

this up? And I think that can pull you out of a story. That’s the only thing. Be cautious

of that will it pull you out?

Because if you’re writing a sci-fi story, the people reading it are probably into sci-fi

and they’ve

read,

As Ben said you [00:36:00] read

nick: on the sci-fi. So

Joe: you know, either a, you did it

wrong,

nick: or the other

Joe: authors who wrote about this did it wrong. Because under

nick: these are

52Ben

Tanzer: Right, right. Yeah. And and I’m like,

you

You’ve referenced Twilight Zone,

Georgia: Yay.

Ben_Tanzer: Asimov, Black Mirror. Those are all

So On some level

you’ve got, it’s like prep work, Yeah, I

think it’s prep, but You’re also

drawing on something, which

is funny.

And I’m funny. It’s just interesting, like it’s a craft tip and you all touched on it. and I

get to talk to a lot

authors. I’m sure you do too, and

also get to coach people and One thing I always say is

if you think the person’s

going to get

stuck or I’m telling you, I

feel Stuck here and distracted. If you can’t fix

it, you gotta get rid of it. And so

with science,

fiction or that this kind of, Anything,

sci-fi, the

risk is higher, but to me it applies

53almost anything. If there’s something that someone’s

going

to get

stuck on because

they don’t believe or agree with how you explained it. Like that TV show,

that’s something that has to be fixed and it

seems like a minor comment,

when people are trying to get novels [00:37:00] published and get

things written, but it’s not minor.

To lose people over something

small. Like when Someone

says to me, I really, I’m really sorry I read the draft, and that

paragraph

on page

12, I can’t get

through it I really enjoy The book so far. Then I need to go fix that

paragraph. It may only be one person,

but.

Off,

I don’t have that many,

readers, so

can’t risk losing even one. If

that person is a sample size of anything. Then, you

know, I’ve done, I’ve made a mistake,

and I’ve worked

54with authors. It’s like the flip

side of this, but it’s still interesting.

They say something they don’t realize is provocative in some way, and then I’ll

say

to them

as a coach or as a consultant

do you

wanna keep that in?

And they’ll say, why?

And I’ll say, do you understand how that reads?

they’ll say no. And I’ll say, so it’s an important point, but you either need to go

deeper, or get rid of it. ’cause leaving it like

all someone’s gonna be,

thinking are gonna,

20 pages.

Georgia: they’re gonna call you out on it. Like John, Liko recently saying, oh, I

didn’t know it’d be any big deal that I’m gonna

Ben

Tanzer: [00:38:00] my God, I was, I literally texted back to my son.

This is very upsetting.

He sent me the clip. I just thought, come on man.

nick: Oh, isn’t he gonna

be in Harry

Georgia: Be he’s gonna be Dumbledore. And he was

Oh, I Didn’t know anyone. Why would anyone have a problem with, that?

nick: don’t know if it’s true or not, but I heard that Pedro Pascal might be in it too.

Georgia: No, that can’t

55be

Ben

Tanzer: Well,

nick: And he

Ben

Tanzer: That

seems impossible.

nick: already talking shit about JK Rowlings too.

Ben

Tanzer: is probably looking for work

again.

No spoiler

alerts

Georgia: No he,

nick: I heard he is gonna be a.

Georgia: He,

The been very,

nick: Father,

Georgia: I don’t, I

nick: I

Joe: Oh, really?

Georgia: Nick, we need to do some verifying here because

Ben

Tanzer: Was gonna say I, need a fact

checker

nick: I don’t know.

Joe: With, put that in the show notes.

We gotta,

nick: He’s gonna look, he can

Georgia: been very vocal about

56his opinion. Anyway. We could go

Joe: up that I wanted to, but

Georgia: But

Joe: I

I like to explore early examples and I’ve, I found too, which is interesting about this

kind of human replacement and because I [00:39:00] thought that was just an interest

and we went down that path.

one

was in Greek, Greek myth Pygmalion,

Sculptor disillusioned with real women, sculpts a, another version

and

that the Pygmalion is, a Shaw’s play and

You have that.

But that was, that’s eight ce, so very early on.

And the other one I

had was the Goum in Jewish folklore. And that, you have this kind of replacement

of the, the humanoid and replacing the human equivalent and taking over function.

So that’s, we, and that was 16th century like Prague esque in that timeframe.

These stories of human replacement. We

think about technology and cloning and robots and

all this stuff

we’re bringing

up, but really we’ve been struggling with

Our, the almost a, a fragile sense of the human condition and our place in the nat-

ural world and our mortality that brought that up.

57Because you can extrapolate out that if you can start cloning yourself. The ultimate

goal when you think about it is that, as I get closer to death, can I clone myself and

then, re-up

[00:40:00] Get a redo

And have all of

Georgia: my base

Joe: memories and, and that,

that’s the show.

Ben

Tanzer: it’s interesting ’cause maybe.

Sorry, go ahead.

Joe.

got excited about

nick: Yeah, no,

Joe: I, and I was just gonna bring up that the show where we started

watching that animated one Pathon.

And,

nick: how is, that’s, it’s

Georgia: it’s really good. It’s really Good.

Joe: Good. And we started

Georgia: and don’t talk too much about that.

’cause that’s gonna lead into a different episode.

Remember?

Joe: Oh, sorry. What is there?

Okay. Nevermind. I dunno.

nick: Oh,

Georgia: remember we

58talked about the idea for another one?

Joe: okay.

I guess we did,

Georgia: actually, if

Ben

Tanzer: I will not allow you, if I can help it for you to ruin future episodes, but

I will say, you Keep

talking about

keep talking about like prep work. or, I’m, I,

grew up immersed in the golem.

of,

my dad talked the golem

All the, time. So even if I didn’t know exactly.

what’s

Georgia: Mm-hmm.

Ben

Tanzer: Joe, To your point,

I know what the

point is. Which is

building new versions of

ourselves, building replacement versions. Then I gotta say

for a moment

when you said you did

research also.

that I thought,

Is he gonna

name [00:41:00] drop the movie?

59Weird Science. ’cause that would be a

magical,

Georgia: You’re

Joe: science. You’re

right. That

Georgia: is,

nick: and

Georgia: and we

nick: how

Georgia: accurate weird science was. That had the science down to a t

Joe: If you’re gonna clone

people out of a Barbie doll, a bra and some underwear on your head, that’s the

way to go,

nick: That

Ben

Tanzer: I worked for them and

Joe: so

nick: I, I did have

Joe: thinking of, I went way

back, but early sci-fi, probably the first

people

all

agree at some level that the first sci-fi kind of story was Frankenstein, and

nick: that

sci-fi or is it horror?

usually considered

60Georgia: I think. I think both.

Joe: I mean I, all right, I’m, that’s

Georgia: I do

think it’s both, but I think it’s the science because you’re reanimating, like the

wasn’t, like

nick: the

Joe: horror. So I think this is considered the first sci-fi. So let’s say that, so in there,

right?

nick: Yeah.

Ben

Tanzer: it’s funny ’cause I was joking about

weird science, but I was wondering

if you were gonna mention Frankenstein ’cause

of course You’re [00:42:00] building

I mean it’s

a monster.

I’m

doing that with air quotes.

Joe: thunder.

Usually,

Ben

Tanzer: No. I’m thrilled. I

actually tracking. you

nick: got something older.

Joe: Nick

has

Ben

Tanzer: No, but I was tracking. Was tracking

where your brain was going. I

61Joe: I have

nick: a list of

Joe: kind of,

this historical list of kind of stories that have human replacements.

I, I

Pride myself

Georgia: I think it is really fascinating because. I don’t know. Anyway, someone

else say something ’cause I’ve lost my thought.

nick: I can say

that.

Joe: I’ll go with Irwin by Samuel Butler. And that was 1872. And the whole theme

there was that machines might evolve and surpass humans. So that’s how long ago

we’ve been thinking about a machine replacing us there and society. Then

Ben

Tanzer: in the

Terminator,

right?

Joe: begin, they banned the machines. So we, we, at this point in time, we kinda

have the industrial revolution working its way and, you ban you then go, let’s just ban

machines.

That way

then they’ll never replace us. They’ll never [00:43:00] overtake

us. You, we cut

it. So go back in time. And that’s, unlike the Terminator who goes back and tries to

stop John Conner from being conceived, what if the humans went back and they said,

you know what?

Let’s just forget all these machines.

62They caused us all the trouble. And so you would have this whole thing. So now

I thought it, that’s a early

example of machines. We think about these stories being relatively new. And real-

ly we’ve been, the minute machines seem to replace humans and, I, and my

list of stories

to talk about with John Henry and our struggle against the machine.

I, I do,

Georgia: And I think it’s just so important to look at how science fiction can help

us, even help us in science. You know what I’m

saying? Like we bring up these things through science fiction that and different

possibilities that maybe we haven’t thought about in our everyday life.

Do You know what I’m saying?

Yeah. I do think it’s.

it Important to like, look at these [00:44:00] things in that

sense

Joe: Yeah. No, I yes.

Georgia: And I, but I always would thought Jetsons, and having the robots and

stuff would help you and

nick: don’t care enough about robots anymore. I want flying cars. If we’re talking

about the Jetsons,

Ben

Tanzer: I know the Jetsons is a bummer because everything they predicted,

if you’re around

my age.

Joe: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. So you’re,

we.

Ben

Tanzer: That’s 40, 50 years ago. We got none of it.

63Georgia: I know And then

Joe: we’re probably,

nick: not, they’re

Georgia: have the robot robots doing the dishes or doing

the stuff that you

don’t wanna do. that’s

my whole or making things easier

Joe: AI and all that

And it’s like,

nick: we’re

stealing the fun jobs. Why don’t

Joe: write art

and no, why they do taxes and dishes and, laundry.

That’s what I want the

machine to do that I don’t have time to actually work on, work

Georgia: need to write

Joe: stuff. Yeah, no, they don’t. Yeah.

Georgia: Yeah. No, there’s

Joe: nothing

about the human condition except what we teach ’em. And that’s,

nick: and the people that are teaching them are,

Ben

Tanzer: but Joe, to your point, I’m not gonna elevate orphans [00:45:00]

above. Its

Primarily

pedestrian

level on that continuum.

64But what’s

fascinating is

just how long the continuum is

of people

thinking

about

what does it mean to

build replacements? What does it mean to be replaced even

when you don’t even have a

sense of technology. Going back to,

Pygmalion, you still have

this idea

we can be

replaced, And for me.

but I think you’re also touching on this to Go

sort of full circle. How

often

it doesn’t, not only intersect with domestic life, but it intersects with,

Capitalism.

and the sense that

On the good side, hey, it could do my taxes.

I can write.

That’s a positive if we could figure that out.

But so often it’s really abused and leveraged so that most

of us are not going to get to do the work we

65wanna do

or live

the

lives

nick: Oh a hundred percent.

Ben

Tanzer: And

so I

think that’s it always. One of the other

inspirations for this book, which is very not scifi. Is bartleby

The Scrivener. and I dunno if you all know

that by Melville and

when I read that

book

college, I don’t know a, story, it’s a story,

but it’s about a [00:46:00] guy who

decides not

to work.

real question

of what’s any worker’s obligation to the boss.

The first time I read it I remember thinking, there’s no debate here.

A person

got a job. They

applied for a

job, they got hired.

66The teacher, the

professor at the time was like why do we assume

you’re just supposed to

whatever

you’re told? to do, even when you’ve been Hired, for a job. And I don’t think I’d

ever

conceived that there was

another side to that

equation.

To me, the other side was

then you just don’t

take

that job, or

you don’t stay on that job or you find another job or you suffer.

And I still don’t think I understand

fully in my

own head where that fits, but it also fits on this continuum of things we’re talking

about, which is what are any of our obligations,

and what are our obligations

to work and bosses and the larger corporations we all feed into, and, I’ll always be

fascinated by

Joe: On that line, the maybe. ’cause it’s all, this always leads to dystopia but it

does have a contrarian kind of view. And I had some points here. I thought of

[00:47:00] maybe pluses and on to this point, Ben,

Work has historically been a source of trauma,

67For the

most part.

You can go

nick: so much trauma, alienation,

Joe: Soul sucking

death, it is just all these things we hear. So in some ways would

mourn its collapse, if,

Would we actually embrace

forced

leisure?

Would that bring us some sort

Georgia: Did you say forced leisure?

That’s

Joe: Yeah. Because all these stories,

Georgia: better start having some leisure there.

nick: Like,

I would kill for

some leisure,

Joe: Henry. I brought that up because he actually is

struggling against a machine saying that humans shouldn’t be replaced and hu-

mans can do a better job than the machine.

And he worked

harder

Georgia: and he worked himself. to

68Joe: You’re right. Some versions of the legend he killed himself defeating the ma-

chine.

So when I say forced leisure, it’s, is it something about the human condition, the

human experience that

we fall into,

as Ben was saying, we fall into line, [00:48:00] that work is part of

our

Georgia: then human condition.

There’s, but there’s so many different things that you have to tease apart in that,

because if you’re working, let’s say you’re working at.

A fast food

place

And you’re barely surviving. That’s different work than, I’m a brain surgeon and I’m

making this big difference

in the world.

Like, how much purpose are you

getting out of your work?

Joe: But if you, if with the.

person at the fast food place who now you say, okay, you’re forced into leisure.

They might be more accepting of it. So you’re saying they’ll be more accepting of

the leisure than a brain surgeon that goes, oh, the machine can do it now, so now I

can go off and play golf

Georgia: off. I think

nick: but wouldn’t that

Georgia: how much,

69nick: exercise more with art? If you have the leisure, you’re more accepting to do

the stuff that you didn’t think you would like. That’s when great things could be writ-

ten. Great. Paintings can be painted. Video games can be made.

But, or

you

Georgia: [00:49:00] or it’s

Joe: is a counter argument that.

Because you’re now not suffering. You won’t have the inspiration. You won’t be

like,

Ben,

nick: there’s other things to suffer

about. With Ben. You get the love life of suffering. You get the, there’s plenty of

suffer your

sunburn from the golf course. You know what I was

Georgia: so I’m saying like, how much of your identity is in

that work, right?

Yeah, that’s it’s like the people

that, find, they get to retire and then all of a sudden they go, wait, I don’t really

wanna do anything else.

nick: There’s so many other things I’d rather

Georgia: That’s not, how I would

feel

I would be very happy.

No, I

nick: hell, I can just sit around here and chat with you guys all

day.

70Joe: of

a sudden

this is the case

do you embrace it?

Do you and

I at forced leisure? I think, ‘

cause here example if you’re that brain surgeon, you’re gonna be forced in a

leisure, even though you might enjoy. Your profession, right? So we’re talking about

the people that might not

Georgia: it’s also

Joe: off the

bottom of the fry pan, but

Georgia: But it’s also

[00:50:00] totally tied

to capitalism and money, right. Yep. Yep. So there’s so many different.

Joe: Yeah.

yeah.

nick: And hell I can’t think of a job I’ve done that can’t be replaced by like a com-

puter or a robot.

It’s like everything I’ve done I know can,

so if the,

Joe: To your

point, Nick, if the machine or clones or whatever are better at the job than us hu-

mans, should we just let ’em re replace us?

Why are we stopping them, right? Or is that, is

71that

Georgia: Part of it.

nick: think

Joe: Ben has some comment. I think I saw he made

nick: a

Joe: We don’t have

video

Ben

Tanzer: it made me, it made me smile. The question right becomes

If they’re

better.

if we can let them replace us. If they ought to replace us.

It’s interesting

’cause you’ve taken the sort

positive

tack on this Joe, but Of course

there’s some

universe, everyone’s

I guess

we don’t need you at all.

And you don’t get forced leisure either. funny is

Georgia: base

nick: material.

Joe: Because

Ben_Tanzer: Yes. It’s an

interesting.

72thing and maybe it’s particularly

American [00:51:00] society.

which I think it is. When you talk about forced leisure, I was just reading some arti-

cle.

People love to always

talk about the European countries France in particular, how much the focus is on.

Yes. Work

hard, but don’t work like

they do in America.

Like we’re just not going to do that. But what’s

interesting to

is that this is a country where work is so completely valued And as Georgia was

talking

and overvalued,

arguably, I was thinking too,

whatever you do, whatever you aspire to, to Nick’s

point, if you could be

replaced on everything.

don’t know, but it’s also an interesting

discussion to me

about opportunity, certainly the character in this book

feels

that his opportunities are limited. And

You talked about trauma

73Joe, you’ve referred to

it, During this conversation. I’d

also see the characters, the protagonist

in the story

as growing up rough and

without, lacking certain

fundamental things, certain

support.

And so they’re

hustling.

And that’s another thing. right? When you’re hustling, you’re that much, [00:52:00]

you’re that

much, more

desperate to not. be. hustling. And I

thought if I, could capture some of that vibe, they

found each other, they’re holding on they have a kid, like, it’s not that they’re not

without hope,

but they’re absolutely without the possibility that they’re going

to be

able to easily take care of themselves or maybe even take care of themselves at

all.

And that I thought is fascinating.

The universe of,

forced leisure, which by

the way,

I’m totally picturing the Black Mirror episode the three of you have to write.

74I find that really

fascinating.

lot of people couldn’t do

it. They wouldn’t, they wouldn’t Know what

do.

We haven’t

been conditioned by Society to embrace.

It reminds me of that Twilight Zone

where the guy’s a bank robbery

he gets shot.

and then he

is clearly dead.

Joe: a resident Twilight zone expert.

nick: She know, this episode, Georgia. So he goes, he turns out, he’s

Ben

Tanzer: dead

Joe: you’re the first

guest to point out a Twilight Zone

Ben

Tanzer: Oh my God.

I am obsessed. And I should say, I went to the, I went to the same high school

much later.

Rod

Serling went to my [00:53:00] high

Georgia: Wow.

Wow.

75Ben

Tanzer: I feel a level

ownership relationship. There’s this

episode where the guy gets shot?

and

Georgia: Is it set like in Old West Time or

Ben_Tanzer: No, No, no.

So This feels like,

it’s in the fifties,

but the

catch is he is

dead

And

everything is gold.

Like he he wants whatever

he wants.

he’s getting

and.

he’s

like, how did I

end up

in heaven.

This is crazy. I’m this bank robber, horrific, whatever guy.

And then he says to,

he has

A guide or a guardian angel,

76and he says, the guardian angel. Look man,

Like,

this is all too easy.

Everything’s

fun, everything’s cool, everything’s leisure. I win every hand of blackjack. All the

money’s coming my way. I gotta

get a little action. He goes, I wanna go

rob something. And the guardian

angel’s perfect, I’ll

set

that

up for you.

He’s so

when are you gonna get there? And do you need a gun? And what should the po-

lice do? And the guy’s no.

I don’t want it. Stage managed. This is a nightmare.

And then finally the guardian angel says, that’s how it works [00:54:00] here.

And then he, says, you know what? If That’s, how it works here. then I prefer to go

to hell.

And then the

angel’s like, where do you think you are?

Georgia: yeah,

Ben_Tanzer: is hell. This is your

version of hell.

There’s no excitement.

Joe: So just a quick lookup, a nice place to visit.

77nick: Hell,

Ben

Tanzer: that

sounds correct.

And you know you don’t know

nick: nice place to visit.

Joe: Yeah, no,

nick: that’s the

Joe: episode there used to Google machines while Ben

Ben

Tanzer: There you go. So, yeah, I can make Twilight Zone references

endlessly. My brother and I, not only did my brother and I

Watch every episode.

nick: seen that.

Joe: I looked at

the little picture of the episode.

And

Georgia: it’s ringing bells.

Joe: I do remember this one yet.

nick: So Georgia, when are you guys gonna start your Twilight Zone recap pod-

cast?

Georgia: Right. I love that. I will come back and be happy to stupidly talk about

Ben

Tanzer: every episode

I’m

Georgia: I have said that we should do an episode just on the Twilight Zone.

Joe: Yes.

nick: I think that’s just a whole new show.

Georgia: That’s true.

78nick: That’s true. But honestly, like I, it, I absolutely loved when the pandemic had

us [00:55:00] closed down. Everything was at a halt. I was thriving. It was great. De-

spite everything else around in the world, having that time of leisure, right?

Like not being able to experience like an actual vacation before that.

I loved

it. It was,

Joe: yeah.

nick: it’s like having that forced leisure. I think that would be the closest thing.

Georgia: That’s a great example. of that. We

nick: had two of that, yeah, you weren’t able to do absolutely everything you

wanted to, but you had that time off to do stuff.

Joe: Yeah, no I think you could put a positive spin on it, but

nick: Joe, would you be able to deal with that? Like a forced leisure?

Yeah. I

Joe: have

a million hobbies,

nick: Oh yeah, you do. I

forgot about

that. That probably, I, the

Joe: limitation would be, alright, the supplies I need free or do I need, they’ll keep

working for

Georgia: See that.

it always goes back to the money. You have

Joe: just if you’re saying money is of no

object, psen, you [00:56:00] would hit

the

79Georgia: you’re

talking about like science fiction and like Just totally going out. That is science fic-

tion. A world where you don’t need money.

Joe: Yeah.

We touched

nick: about, we touched on

Georgia: even,

Joe: in the economics episode. We had this, in, in that episode and we talked

about the economics of star Trek. Because that was the idea. It was a post scarcity kind

of economic kind of model, which our guests on that episode, Omron said that was,

nick: he had a lot of lot,

Joe: a

lot of hand waving problems yeah.

nick: that

was the show that pulled him out. He was like, Nope, I can’t deal with this.

Yeah,

Joe: you’re

right because you get to that point where then the economics and we talked

about on there about, usually economics is boring and you spikes it up. But it was in-

teresting because you get into that, that if you take away these things like what are,

what’s the friction in society?

What’s this economic friction? What is the movement of goods and things like

that. Because at the end of the day,

humans

80do that. That’s what we do. And, [00:57:00] time in and time out through our histo-

ry, we found a way to. Make things, commodities and some way to trade and ex-

change these things.

That could be goods. That could be products. And I think we would enjoy our

force leisure, and then we would kill all the robots and clones and that would start

some sort of war between the clones and the robots. And then we get into a termina-

tor situation or matrix

and it just won’t,

we fall.

nick: Maybe

that’s how the

Joe: started.

Maybe it, it was like forcely, Hey, you guys can leisurely do what you do. And then

the humans were like,

no we actually don’t want

that. And then the machine said we don’t need you. We’ll use it as batteries, which

Georgia: So would you call that a broken future?

call

Joe: a very broken

nick: future.

Joe: future.

Yeah. That’s as broken as the future can get where, the stupid machines uses as

batteries. ’cause that’s, we’re a poor energy source. Nonetheless, that’s a different

nick: radical. Wait, you’re saying I’m not a [00:58:00] good energy source?

Joe: you’re not,

81nick: Damn

Joe: pretty wasteful.

nick: Thanks, Joe.

Now my trauma’s maybe that remains unproven in the be in the

Ben

Tanzer: best

nick: That’s

right.

Joe: No, but yeah, ‘

you, cause you get, we’re gonna kind come to the end here, but you do have this

thing, and I just, last point and the story is that, that trauma, between, being useful, ob-

solescence and, and poverty like, which is worse, right?

That you’re now replaced in some society. So we could take Ben’s story here and

the clone can replace the human completely, or the machine can replace the human.

So you go from poor,

you

go from poor, this poverty

situation and desperate to now being replaced. So the, the trauma and all that,

amplifies.

Can we just, can you

nick: edit

Joe: out the

human trauma, right? Can you create the clone and teach them to enjoy it? Or

force [00:59:00] leisure? And then get rid of the human the next point. And that’s,

Georgia: and also there’s also a Ray Bradbury episode. Remember

the one where he made a clone and then

his wife fell in love with the clone and they put him in a box or something.

82that

Joe: Ray Bradbury or

Georgia: was

Yeah, it was a ray.

Joe: that maybe you’re right.

Georgia: Yeah.

Ben

Tanzer: I remember that.

episode. Right. guy’s,

Joe: go ahead. And Ben.

Ben

Tanzer: I may be wrong about this, but of course I, you’re talking about Twi-

light Zone again.

Georgia: It was actually Ray

Bradbury’s presents or whatever

his

Ben_Tanzer: Oh, okay. Sorry.

Joe: that presents,

Ben

Tanzer: thinking about a particular Twilight Zone where this guy, this very

slumpy

guy. He,

Georgia: for it.

Joe: it.

Ben

Tanzer: Oh,

okay. Sorry. I did what?

nick: time.

Joe: she usually

brings

83Ben

Tanzer: Oh, no.

Okay.

nick: though.

Joe: So

Georgia: Ben, you’re like still in the thunder here. No,

Ben

Tanzer: Sorry, I do not

nick: go for it. Go for it. That is beautiful. You

Joe: You can steal as much thunder as you like as a guest

Ben

Tanzer: This like Very schlubby dude his

wife [01:00:00] goes away

to I don’t know what we call them anymore.

She goes away to lose weight.

And while she’s

away, he

buys a robot not quite a

blowup doll or a sex doll, but like a robot.

And she’s young

and attractive

and he gets to spend this like week or two with her. And he is got someone young

who’s

Fun to look at, but also

waits on him and treats him like he’s

a hero and he is not used to any of this.

And

Then he starts thinking,

do I even need my wife to come back?

84So this

Picks up this whole,

thread tonight,

and you are like, do

I even need

her to come back. And then she

comes back and, she’s, again, this feels so, antiquated, now, I apologize. But She

comes back and she’s lost all

this weight and

we don’t see her,

Maybe we see her

beforehand, she’s really attractive.

And he’s

oh, maybe I overthought this.

The

robot

thing is great, but look

at my wife now.

Now I

appreciate

her.

So then he

Starts getting into some weird,

exchange with Her and he is I was gonna

replace you.

85but now I don’t need to.

And Then she’s you’re gonna replace me.

And then she reaches behind his neck and she [01:01:00] turns off his switch

He had once been a young, attractive

robot,

and he had grown into this slovenly, middle aged dude, robot and she replaces

him. And then she pulls a younger robot out of a box,

and now she’s gonna live her best life. She was always the only human in the mix.

Georgia: That

is awesome.

And I can’t say I even recall that episode, I know. It’s, crazy.

Joe: Ray Bradberry Marionette Inc.

Georgia: Which one?

Nette? The one that he no, Ray Brad. The one I was

Joe: you’re talking

about it’s from Illustrated man. Marionettes Inc.

And that was that one. And it was that was a story where they get the

clone

and then the wife has it, and then it’s on.

If he has the wife, the clones, more affectionate, da. And then he wants to like, he

realizes that the clone is like falling in love ’cause the wife never gets him to do what

he wants to do. So he gets to clone to do all the stuff the wife wants to do. And then

he realizes that the clone. Is falling in love with his wife not doing the job,

nick: And I’m pretty sure this was a [01:02:00] Futurama episode too. I’m

Joe: Yeah, that’s right.

nick: the amount of times that it’s oh yeah, you can just build off

86this locked in a box

Joe: like the clone eight. They like a struggle. And then he gets locked in the box

in the basement, and then it’s like that’s,

Georgia: Yeah. you

Joe: really know,

like they’re in the bedroom and you think it’s the clone kissing the wife, but you’re

unsure who actually got locked in the box.

So is that little double take

Georgia: Wow. I’m actually,

I gotta find out. That was but I have to find out what the episode is that he’s talking

about for Twilight.

Zone. Oh yeah. No, ’cause

Joe: what To look

Georgia: I gotta do Some more Twilight Zone reason. You gotta have that

Joe: the mini the mini episode that we do.

Ben

Tanzer: You’re gonna find out later.

I completely,

made Up and I somehow combined,

you know, Ray Bradberry with weird science with my own book,

Georgia: And it

was awesome. weird science

Joe: reference. Wow. That’s a good

Ben

Tanzer: sorry, one of my longtime obsessions.

nick: haven’t seen that movie in a minute. I haven’t

Joe: either. No, I

Georgia: I have to say

87this

Ben

Tanzer: I’m guessing it hasn’t

aged very

Joe: very well. No,

Ben

Tanzer: seemed appropriate.

Joe: Yeah.

It was, yeah, I know.

I doubt it aged any of those movies in that timeframe. Probably [01:03:00] not. No.

Yeah,

Ben

Tanzer: Maybe not. Unfortunately only unfortunate that

we grew up. At least I grew up watching

them

and caused all kinds of long-term

damage.

Joe: going

the theater to see where it’s iron, so Yeah. That’s Yeah. I done.

Georgia: And

Nick’s gosh, you guys are old.

Joe: No, I, I don’t, I think we’re around the same age fan.

Ben

Tanzer: We are I might be a little older. If I didn’t see it in the theater, that’s

only ’cause I was seeing some

other crap test. A

eighties

nick: You

gotta

88Joe: mannequin

weird science. There was a whole generation of those movies.

If people don’t know what we’re talking about.

Proceed with

Ben

Tanzer: Apologies. Anyone who

was born after the seventies and possibly the eighties.

Joe: Cool. What were you saying, Georgia?

Georgia: No, I was just gonna say. Actually this episode, it really wasn’t quite as

depressing as I thought it might.

be.

Joe: We made this future of

clones and robots replacing humans. Very fun.

nick: Yeah.

I’m down for it. Yeah.

Ben

Tanzer: It can be

fun.

Joe: leisure.

nick: and forced

Georgia: leisure.

nick: Sign

me up. I just have a

feeling that the company’s gonna end up killing me, [01:04:00] as soon as they re-

placed me,

that would

Joe: be the

Ben

Tanzer: it shakes out, Nick is gonna be very

89happy. And Joe, you’re gonna expect to be killed. And that’s gonna be the, that’s

where things are going to land.

George Is gonna be,

fine. The rest

nick: I’ll be watching Twilight Zone in my

Ben

Tanzer: There you go.

nick: Inc.

Ben

Tanzer: It.

Georgia: All

right.

Joe: I think

nick: Ben, where, what plugs you got?

Joe: let’s go. You got a new book coming out

has come do so May 6th,

Ben

Tanzer: so May 6th, this new book after.

Hours Scorsese Grief

and the grammar of Cinema

drops. It’s Again, it’s a partially a grief memoir

partially

film

commentary

I’m not gonna call

it film criticism again, but it’s really

a Deep

dive into sort of, into the movie after hours.

90and

how I connected to my father,

in particular, who died fairly young. But both my parents, their love of Scorsese,

but trying to use,

the movie as a lens

think about both

grief, but also

how we become creative people. So my father was

an [01:05:00] Artist,

fine artist, And he never. Quite got the success he wanted.

though he was acclaimed. he loved him and he’s a

wonderful artist.

This whole idea of how

did he get

in his own way, But also

when you don’t get to live a full life, who

knows what opportunities are lost, and so I thought

if I could somehow write a

book

about all that that would be cool.

And I, I threw all

kinds of.

things in just, Joe, I didn’t even know you in yet there’s lists and

there’s interviews. I

Joe: God have lists

91Ben

Tanzer: It’s funny to do a whole callback and pull our episode together

here. One of the first interviews,

I did for the book

it was with an

author actually, also at the

Chicago Writers Association conference, Let’s just

write Jeremy.

Wilson is a good friend of mine,

And he said, this is a Frankenstein

of a book.

And I thought, okay there. it is. that’s gonna be the theme apparently. And so you

all brought that

back. I appreciate it. Apparently I’m

dabbling in

Frankenstein.

if that’s a thing.

but

Yeah.

the book’s Coming out. I’m really, I’m excited when [01:06:00] anything comes

out. I’m excited when

anyone says, oh yeah, we’d love to publish this.

That always feels like a small miracle, right?

Joe: yes.

Quick question.

nick: Do you have any pictures of your father’s art in your book or no,

92Ben

Tanzer: Not in this book. That’s an

awesome

question.

No, ’cause we just didn’t

Shake out like that. So now of course when I get it

reissued down the road, we’ll have to incorporate some Mike Tanzer art. Yeah.

Now that’s

seeming Like

a big problem. So Yeah. no, Not necessarily.

though. It was

funny,

I have this fantasy

where I’m

gonna do

A podcast.

where I’m gonna interview my brother. and my mom, both.

of whom I interviewed for the book, And

that we’ll talk about the influence of movies on the family

but I’ll record it.

And so I did, a, we did

a Test

run. It wasn’t intended as

a test run, but We had some technical, difficulties. but there was a moment.

where I was looking at, I was

looking at them on Zoom and

looking at my own reflection and all three of us had artwork.

93of my father’s behind us. And

that was not planned.

we’re in three different homes

And

we each had something over

our [01:07:00] That’s awesome.

Yeah. Can’t escape, the shadow. don’t Wanna escape. shadow, and definitely can’t

escape which great.

Don’t, so

Georgia: that makes me think of my other question.

What is your

podcast?

Ben

Tanzer: So

I do a podcast called

this

Podcast, Will change Your Life.

And

It is Long, it has become, it was

always

intended, but I don’t think I had any of this language.

It’s long form interviews with authors.

Certainly. I hope you all will come on and join me.

But yeah, just talk to different authors I’ve been, what I’m

proud of lately, I hadn’t really noticed it until.

94previous

book came.

out and this started

coming up, but the show is now in

its 16th year.

so it’s got some longit longevity long

longevity.

So, said longevity. That doesn’t sound right. Longevity,

Joe: I

Ben

Tanzer: doesn’t sound right. Longevity.

Joe: Yeah. I

nick: I dunno

what you’re talking

Joe: about.

Ben

Tanzer: you know what’s great about that? tell,

could see the word in my brain,

but I could not

get my to match

nick: that’s like the microwave. I

immediately thought, [01:08:00]

yeah, this

is a word. I’m just not that bright. I

get this. No,

Georgia: but I,

Ben

Tanzer: I used a word in a different interview recently,

95and as soon as I said it, I thought that’s

not a word. Then I got really embarrassed

because I was speaking

to someone.

much more erudite than me. Again, I

grew up in upstate New York in the seventies.

my public School education.

is a little

shaky, and I

paused and

I went. I apologized. There’s no way That’s a word.

Another person said, that’s okay.

You’re on a Podcast.

You can Make up any,

words you

nick: Anywhere if you want.

Georgia: I was gonna,

Ben

Tanzer: but

Georgia: I like that word too. And I think may.

Ben

Tanzer: feel free to use it. You don’t even have to

Reference me.

It’d probably be more embarrassing if you

Joe: Yeah.

You should reference. No. Yeah. No,

Ben

Tanzer: then people will know how dumb your

96guests are and let’s not, add

to that or at least how dumb guest

is.

Joe: guess. And yeah, I definitely, I’d speak for myself and maybe the, my other

cohost love to be on your podcast sometime and talk about,

Ben

Tanzer: Let’s

make happen. ’cause I like to, you know, the other thing I do is

that I love talking to authors

especially as they have New things coming out not required. But then

I also like to filter in just getting

podcasters on.

and talking

Why They

what they [01:09:00] do. Like I know

what I do.

I know why I do what I do. Maybe we’ll talk

about making, get

the Three of

you. on simultaneously. That would be a

nick: yeah. absolutely.

Ben

Tanzer: we do that?

engineer

nick: whenever you want.

Joe: whenever you want.

97Ben_Tanzer: Okay. This summer. How about let’s just commit to it this summer.

We’ll make this

Joe: We’re

nick: A hundred percent we’re

Joe: it here

first on a rabbit hole of research.

We’re gonna

all appear

on Ben’s podcast title, the,

Ben

Tanzer: podcast will change your

life.

nick: will change your

life. I

thought you were forgot

first. Actually,

Georgia: especially the episode, we’re on

That’s

really gonna change. things. We won’t

Joe: talking about broken futures, trauma and human condition,

nick: Oh, I thought we were gonna dive into the trauma. We didn’t get

to dive into

Ben

Tanzer: I, I it’s gonna have to be trauma focused

for sure. But then we’ll find other things like forced leisure to

Joe: Yeah.

nick: Are you pro force leisure or against force leisure before we

Ben

Tanzer: Oh, I am, as Soon as you,

98add the phrase forced leisure, I’m in whatever it is, whether it’s forced

unforced offered.

Again, as long

it’s

not some larger nefarious.

plot to replace all of us.

if it’s [01:10:00] really just an option to be,

I could handle leisure.

My wife always jokes

about this, given especially how much I

work.

She’s Always oh my God,

Nobody was born

for leisure more than you.

You’ll be fine. have so much

stuff You wanna do that? Doesn’t evolve going to work.

yeah, Nick, you and I, man, we’re simpatico here. I’ll be fine. I will be fine.

nick: Joe pro or con force leisure.

Joe: I’m pro force. I

don’t like

forced to anything. I’m just leisure. I just love leisure. But

yeah, so if you’re gonna force me to do le

99stop doing what you do and do leisure and then Yeah. No I got things to, to fill my

time with and I’ve got country wisdom, so I’m ready for any robot apocalypse, mete-

orite, apocalypse

nick: meteorite,

Ben

Tanzer: All the we, we embrace all the apocalypses.

Joe: Yeah. I’m there. So yes. I’m Pro Force Leisure,

nick: Georgia.

Georgia: Yeah. You don’t even have to

ask.

me.

And I’ll say I really enjoyed the, I really enjoyed COVID.

myself.

See

Joe: the problem with COVID. I was like the, I had

this, I had the letter from the governor or whatever. I still had to [01:11:00] go in.

I was, I forget what they call

Georgia: it. Essential maybe essential

Joe: Yeah. I had to go to the lab and keep microscopes up and pivotal research,

and then I got sick with COVID.

nick: Yeah.

Georgia: What?

Joe: I didn’t have a

good COVID experience. But that’s a different story for a different podcast. But

nick: all right then. So I think

Thank you so much

Ben. Free.

100Joe: thank

Ben

Tanzer: man. Thanks for having

me. What a blast. You guys are awesome.

Joe: And so yeah,

you have me,

Joe here.

nick: You got Nick.

Joe: You got Nick. We’ve got Nick, we’ve got Georgia

and

we’ve got our guest Ben here who joined us

nick: and we went down some traumatic

Joe: We went

down some traumatic ho with

nick: with

Georgia: little forced leisure thrown in, forced

Joe: leisure on the other end.

Yeah. You guys stay safe out there.

nick: Bye-Bye.

Joe: We love ya.

Transcript: EP 41: Crimes in Time

Can a murder be solved across timelines? Author Lee Matthew Goldberg joins the Rabbit Hole crew to explore time travel, paradoxes, time machines, and mind-bending memory loops.

Listen to this episode now: Substack, Apple, Spotify, YouTube, Amazon

Joe: [00:00:00] Hey, welcome back to the Rabbit Hole of Research down here in the basement studio for episode 41. We’ll be talking about crimes through time. You have the crew. You have me, Joe, you got

nick: Yeah. Got Nick. You’ve

Joe: got Nick. We’ve got Georgia, how you there?

geo: Hi there.

Joe: And we have a special guest joining us please.

Lee: Hi, I am Lee Matthew Goldberg. I’m an author. I have two young adult sci-fi books that just came out. And I’m so happy to be here.

Joe: Definitely. And

your books, they revolve around time. One of them miles in time, is that right? That’s the awesome,

Lee: Yes. Yeah.

the title definitely,

Joe: we played off of that Crimes in Time.

Lee: traveling. Yes.

Joe: Yeah. And with that I’ll go ahead and give my little opening definition. We’ll save the list for later. I don’t know. I’m not gonna break my.

nick: Can you actually do the [00:01:00] list first?

Joe: I don’t

geo: Yeah. Come on. I wanna hear list.

Joe: No. You guys gotta wait. I want build a tension for the list. Yeah. That’s

geo: what

all.

Joe: like, that’s the fans like.

Time is an absolute universal parameter that flows at a constant rate for all observers.

It provides the backdrop against which all events occur, a cosmic metronome. Indifferent to space or motion, and it’s perceived to flow forward a straight arrow, a line that moves from cause to effect or from crime to consequence. But what if it doesn’t? What if time bends loops, fractures? What happens to justice when yesterday can be edited and tomorrow can reach back to pull the trigger.

What if the criminal disappears into the past? So worse is the past. What about murders that haven’t happened yet? Alibis that exist in parallel timelines, evidence that loops forever. And a terrifying idea that some crimes have no beginning at all.

nick: Is it just me or have your what, your descriptions gotten a lot more wordy. I don’t know. I don’t know.

Joe: I don’t know. And are you giving me, are [00:02:00] you upset about these? No, I’m just Okay.

geo: I think I agree. Yeah.

Joe: Yeah.

geo: I think it probably depends on the

topic. Yeah.

Joe: It

geo: like time.

Time is very romantic,

nick: Romantic.

geo: Yeah. Like that concept of time.

No,

but I think you can real, I can think you can wax poetic about time and I

Joe: Yeah,

geo: that’s,

Lee: I agree. I was with it the whole time, Joe. Yeah, I was, I.

Joe: thank you. Thank you. I get a lot of shade here from my cohost. I feel like

Lee: Good though. It No, it keeps you working for Yeah.

geo: I feel like there’s a little bit of pressure though, ’cause you’ve you’ve said what we’re gonna talk about.

Joe: Maybe I don’t actually. I, that’s what I wanna talk about, but I as listeners, our listeners know that is not usually I don’t get my way. So that’s

geo: you just

nick: by

Joe: so I’m trying to prompt everyone to talk about what I want, but No, it’s

okay.

nick: I felt like. Yeah he’s really trying, that’s

geo: That’s

what I felt like. It was more like,

nick: he knows he can’t script me, so he [00:03:00] tries to,

Joe: maybe what I’ve done is I can actually time travel and I’ve gone back and I’ve created

geo: oh, so we’ve already done this episode and now you’ve gone back and

Joe: right.

I’ve already done it like,

Lee: it’s edited perfectly to fit the narrative. Yeah.

Joe: And every time someone messes up, then I gotta go many times have you done this, Joe?

right. This is so boring.

geo: Those

Joe: Wow. Those jokes are perfectly timed. Yep. That’s it. I ran on top of it.

geo: So I wanna say something really exciting. I did read your book

Lee: Awesome. I love that.

geo: and I

Lee: I love that.

geo: I really enjoyed it. But you will know, you can ask Nick and Joe I haven’t really read a lot of the other, you usually get more done than I do.

And I actually read the whole book. Yeah. So there,

Joe: I

nick: I had to

Lee: I really appreciate that. That means a lot.

Joe: I’ve read, I read the first three chapters, so I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna try to lie my way out of it. I no time travel. I’ll have to go back and catch it.

nick: I had to [00:04:00] restart recently. ’cause I, I started reading yours for a different episode and I’m like, wait, where am I?

geo: It was like time traveling. Yeah.

Lee: Right. It got you again.

It got you again.

nick: I’m just like, wait, what parts do I remember?

geo: So

yeah, I really enjoyed it. And so there’s a part one which I read, but then you said there’s a second one. So when did the first one come out?

Lee: So the first one came out about two months ago, I think May 6th, and then the second one came out about a month ago.

the publishers wanted ’em. Yeah, they wanted both out. Which great. But it’s also like a lot of PR that you have to do for a book.

geo: right,

Lee: Have to do double the amount of pr.

But yeah, no. And will there be a third one? Probably not, but you never know. But probably, yeah, I think the loop has closed

geo: But you never know.

Joe: You never know.

Lee: You [00:05:00] never know. And if it became like a, a franchise of movies, sure. I would write another I would

geo: because I was, I read it and then I looked and I was like, wait, there’s a second one. And so I was surprised. Yeah.

Lee: Yeah. I think it, it’s good marketing. I think a lot of times with indie publishers, they really have the ability to try different things out and see what works, what doesn’t. So yeah, no, it’s great. They’re both out.

nick: And how long have you been write writing for

Lee: Wait,

geo: the,

Lee: been writing, so my first book came out about 10 years ago. My first book slowed down. But I’ve been writing since I was like a little kid. It’s always been what I’ve wanted to do with my life. I think I was saying, I used to write books about my dog getting in like a jam. I was always prepping to be a thriller author.

And then now I have these sci-fi books.

Joe: Yeah,

nick: So did your first book have anything to do with time too? ’cause it sounds like it might

Lee: Slowdown, no slowdown was just set in the present time. But books I’ve been working on for a long time, [00:06:00] so a lot of times, like a book is in the back of my mind while I’m working on another one. And both of these books were I

was figuring them out while I was writing other things. They just took a little longer to marinate.

nick: Oh yeah.

geo: And then I was looking, I think I was looking at some of your other books. Don’t you have something that’s a time travel, but it was like during the Gold Rush or

Lee: Yeah. So my book, the Ancestor it’s my favorite, it’s set in the present time, but it’s about a man who wakes up in the Alaskan wilderness with amnesia and he thinks he’s been stuck in time since the Alaskan Gold Rush. And he sees a man that looks just like him. Follows him home and it brings him like a rush of memories of his wife, his child, but all from back in the late 18 hundreds.

And so he becomes obsessed with this man more and more. The more time he spends with him, the more he remembers about his family. And then he remembers he left like a massive amount of gold somewhere in the wilderness, so he has to [00:07:00] go find it. So it plays with time travel and whether you could really be, stuck in time for a hundred something years.

geo: Okay.

Joe: This brings up some of the paradoxes in time travel. So you get your first of many lists, I

geo: was gonna say that sounds like a list.

Joe: No. And so you have the kind of classic ones is the, like the grandfather paradox where you travel back and you prevent Yeah. Preventing your grandfather’s existence, prevent your own or grandmother or anyone in your

nick: wait, so this isn’t the one where you become your own grandfather?

Joe: No, that’s, this isn’t,

geo: oh,

Joe: is that Futurama?

Wasn’t that a

Futurama episode?

nick: Yes, it is.

Joe: It’s been a while since we had a Futurama reference

nick: I know, right? I couldn’t really shove Tama in all the fantastic four

Joe: well maybe.

Then we have the Bootstrap Paradox. It’s an object or information exists without or origin. And so that one, it raises issues of intellectual property. This is the same [00:08:00] as a gin principle, which is a theoretical that an object’s introduced that doesn’t really have a start origin.

So you don’t know. And the classic was the Christopher

geo: I was gonna say the penny. No, I thought I was

Joe: exists.

And so who actually, when was the watch created? Was it created in his time or in the pastime? And you just have this loop where now an object has

geo: Oh, okay.

Origin. So because there was that penny. This is actually a spoiler.

Joe: It’s older than

20 years.

So,

geo: But they see, he sees the penny from the modern times. And that kind of throws everything off.

but that penny, you know where it came from, right? So it, doesn’t, that’s right.

Joe: It’s not it would not be the a bootstrap paradox or the gin particle kind of paradox. I was gonna say the other one, the other classic bootstrap para bootstrap paradox is in Back to the Future with Johnny B. Good and Chuck Berry, and he [00:09:00] goes, oh, listen, this is the sound you’re listening for.

So now the origin of, that music is, it really doesn’t have an origin because it’ll now be in this loop of just being created.

nick: stop me if we’ve had this conversation before. I don’t know if it was on air or off air, but didn’t it have to start somewhere? Because the start of that loop was when Marty McFly had heard it originally,

Joe: right?

Yes.

nick: And that was pre him going back in

Joe: right? Yes. But

now,

nick: it’s, we saw the start of it.

Joe: You know the start because, that’s the fun of it. You actually know Chuck Berry and his music, and you, we know he created it. But in that. Back

to the future world, it would be now just looped like, where did this music come from?

Because Chuck Berry technically didn’t create it now ’cause he just listened to the sound that some kid was playing on stage and

has reproduced it. So

geo: the question

Joe: so now you have this kind of weird loop because now the origin of it, and now you go in time, he now is, becomes famous [00:10:00] Chuck Berry. And then that loops back.

And

geo: I think it would depend on how much music he had done before that moment.

Joe: it didn’t look like he had done a lot. He was like in, in like his mom’s basement or something. I don’t know.

nick: Also, wouldn’t it make him like stealing IP at that point? That’s

Joe: what I said. You have an intellectual property thing and then Marty consume for, oh, okay. That’s,

geo: know there’s

enough

Joe: problems with Back to the future. I was gonna say that the one that kind of went to Penny and even the, your other story is the temporal identity conflicts where you meet past future selves. And, it raises questions about memory continuity, legal personhood and identity.

And so you have this whole, these moments in time. And then we have the pedestrian paradox. Attempting to change the past actually causes the event you’re trying to avoid. And probably one of the famous examples is 12 Monkeys.

Lee: I love,

Joe: think that one that’s, yeah, that’s a good one. So yeah, just some [00:11:00] paradoxes that you have to, so when you were writing your story, did you think about a paradox or did you just dive in and let the story, just take it where it goes without

spoiling it,

Lee: He, the in, in the Y book, he finds a, almost like in Beetlejuice or they find like about the other side, a book about it. He finds a book about what to do and what not to do in time travel. And his brother’s a genius inventor, so he like leaves it for him. So like one of the things is you should never run into your past self.

And my character is like f that like my past self maybe help me out

Joe: So Lee, I don’t want to cut you off, but maybe for listeners, could you give

Lee: Oh, I’m

Joe: synopsis of the story so that every, we all, I think we all know what it’s

about, but

I realize we’ve been talking

for a while. Oh, there’s miles in time travel and ta

geo: da.

Lee: Totally my bad. Um, So

Joe: just a bad host.

Sorry.

Lee: in, in Miles in time it’s set [00:12:00] in present time in Iowa and it’s about a 14-year-old kid named Miles. His older brother is a genius inventor. He may be working on a time machine and his older brother is murdered. And through kind of a code that the brother shared, he’s giving clues to where the time machine is.

Told to go back in time for a week, figure out who murdered him and save his life. So hence the book, the do’s and don’ts of time travel that the brother leaves for miles. So one of the things I said was to not meet your past self, but Miles is like an amateur sleuth. He’s a detective and he feels like he could use his past self.

So the two of them actually worked together to solve a lot of the mystery together. So I threw out a lot of the rules that I had seen before and other things, but, it’s like, it’s a kid’s book, it’s fun. I didn’t want to get fired too much in a complete believability, so yeah,

geo: Yeah.

That was one of the things that I was gonna bring up. But then I was like, I don’t know if I don’t think this a spoiler. And anyway, he did

Lee: no, you can say it. Yeah.[00:13:00]

Joe: But

geo: But yeah. I thought that was interesting that he did team up with his past self, because that is, I think that’s just so drilled into you Yeah.

That you

Lee: Yeah.

Joe: not, you’re gonna explode

Lee: And like who Who made that rule? Who really knows if that’s an actual thing

Joe: It’s a very convenient plot device. Not to

Lee: Exactly. So I don’t know, I just wanted to flip the script on time. Travel has been done so much in books and TV movies. So a lot of me was just trying to figure out like what kind of new could I do with it?

What kind of new things could I say about it? Also like being a real mystery at heart. ’cause he is an amateur Sherlock Holmes and I wanted it to be like a, who done it first and foremost.

Joe: You, it have to be a nice kind of. Having your own self in the time or the past time that you can consult with, because that kind of prevents your own memories from being corrupted during the time travel. So we have all this, like we were just [00:14:00] talking about the jinn particle, and things can now have a non origin.

And so it is, it would be useful to have someone that knows, oh, this is truly the origin of this thing, or this truly is a piece of evidence, not something that we’ve created. Because I guess through time travel, one could disrupt a change in time and then create another outcome or an event that then would have consequences in that

geo: Yeah. I think the other thing about this story is the fact that he only goes back a week.

you know what I mean? I think that you mentioned that, so

Joe: back to when he is like a

geo: so it’s like you look pretty much the same and Yeah. And yeah.

Lee: But they also are so different

Them has experienced the loss of his brother with that week and around that plus also going back in time. The other one is naive than miles from a week ago. So even though they’re only a week apart, like they couldn’t be more different. And I think they’re able to play off each [00:15:00] other like one’s innocence helps the other kind of almost grizzled, hardened detective even a week later from what he’s experienced.

Joe: Now could the past miles swap and go into the future or does that happen in the story? Sorry, I don’t want to spoil it.

geo: You have to read it and find out,

Lee: you’ll have to read it. Yeah, that’s a spoil there.

Joe: I hit on

geo: I do think that it made my mind went a little bit like when I’m thinking about time travel and then Okay. So, dark matter.

Joe: Blake Crouch? Yeah.

geo: that show, I really I read the book and saw the show, but that one really freaks me out. ’cause have you read it or seen it?

Lee: Yeah. Both. Both.

geo: because then all of a sudden, because there are all these other timelines, now all of a sudden there is like tons of, there’s a lot more of him. You know what I

mean? Yeah.

But that,

Lee: think they

want like a second [00:16:00] season and a third season and

Joe: I don’t think they were traveling through time, per se.

geo: Okay. I, they were,

Joe: They were all at the, they were all at present time. They were just, they were manipulating the multiverse idea. Not a time. They weren’t going back in time. So the split and you got all the hundreds of

geo: Oh, so

didn’t travel in different times at all. It was all in that same moment.

Joe: And the kind of, the idea they were, the hypothesis idea that they were playing off of was that when you make a conscious decision, then you would split that reality because now they’re, like stroger’s cat, is it alive or dead?

But when you make the observation, it then picks a path, but the other path also could create in a different dimension.

And so in

nick: in a different time where you actually chose

Joe: right. Yep. Exactly. Exactly. And so you would get all these hundreds of people because as you’re making decisions. You would keep splitting yourself and create another dimension.

But a lot of those would still try to come back to the same, so you had all these, I forget his name, trying to [00:17:00] find home. And so every time he made a decision that one and it, their dimension was trying to find home and they just all wound up in his home at some point in time. And so that’s why you had this whole thing, at that they didn’t, they rushed that, in the episodes, I think they really I think it was like eight episodes and it was like, boom, now we have hundreds of people and they’re taking a vote and things like that.

Yep. I don’t wanna spoil that either ’cause that’s,

geo: yeah, that’s fairly new. Sorry.

nick: I honestly don’t think I’d be able to work with myself if I went back in time. I forget everything already, like,

Joe: That would be good though, because you But maybe two of you.

Lee: Yeah, two of you could help each other. Remember what you forget.

nick: The two of us would just be like, what happened? I have no clue what happened.

Joe: the George’s point, you could actually think about it this way. What if you started going back at intervals of a day and picking up your past selves? And let’s keep going

geo: I know. I was gonna say then what if you,

Joe: Nicks

geo: If you didn’t travel back to your [00:18:00] present day, right? And you just kept living in that time, you are only a week behind and then there’s two of you,

Joe: And if you go another week, you got three of you and four, or you can fractionate it even more. So in a week you would have seven. Like I don’t know. We’re now getting crazy.

Your time machine’s gotta be pretty big or however you’re traveling.

nick: lot of handwaving going on with

Joe: A lot of folks in that DeLorean. Time travel is, yeah, a lot of hand wave. And at DeLorean, pack ’em in. You gotta have

geo: so there’s

Joe: a Yukon

geo: are you saying the plausibility of time Travel is very low.

Joe: Yes. We’ve discussed this in a

geo: I actually was not on the time travel episode and I was Yeah. And I wasn’t on the Doctor who episode either.

go.

Joe: So Lee should feel very special that Georgia chose the dress. No, I the book

Lee: read the book. Yeah.

nick: you got fully prepared. Right. That’s a,

Lee: fully

Joe: beat out Nick and I on the reading part and here No, I was gonna say,

Lee: right after this you’re [00:19:00] gonna want to pick it up. the, that’s the

geo: right. that’s right.

Joe: Or finish it. I guess I gotta keep. Plowing through it. Yeah. Yeah, I was gonna say the one show, and it came out in 2019, a movie spike Lee, I don’t know if he was the director or producer, but see you yesterday.

And that had a very similar vibe.

about

that. And that’s the

one

geo: good. Yeah. Where

Joe: her brother is killed through, I think, was it police violence or crime, like some

geo: I know he’s shot,

Joe: incident. He got shot wrongfully it felt like it was this wrong place, wrong time. And so she was an inventor was going back to try to correct that.

And so you had that whole, paradox there that it was almost like everything she was trying would lead to the event or just miss it. And it was a very,

geo: well, it made other horrible things happen.

Joe: So that kind of, that pedestrian

nick: does that also fall under the butterfly effect then?

Joe: a small thing that leads to other changes? I guess you could, yes. [00:20:00] Because if you go, that’s one interesting things about the time travel in my mind that when you go back you almost can’t leave the environment unchanged

nick: you being there.

Joe: That’s right. Yep. Yep. So you would definitely have that happen as

nick: you being there already

Joe: All right. Changes everything.

You’ve introduced just breathing, you’ve introduced stuff contaminate to that timeline, so let’s use that. Contaminant, yes.

You contaminate

geo: you’re bringing back like some weird

Joe: No, you’ve introduced, right?

So you’ve just going there and you’re dander off your skin, breathing your breath into the air, or breathing in.

You’ve now contaminated the timeline

nick: and then whatever pollution that’s different and blah, blah, blah, blah,

Joe: Yeah.

nick: You don’t Well, oh

geo: I don’t know. He’s weird this

nick: I agree with him on this one.

This is a

geo: particular story, he goes back to the same place that he was. So it’s not like he’s going to some foreign land.

Joe: Yeah, [00:21:00] but you yourself, the minute that you step, like in any environment, like when the minute you come into the room, like just like present time, let’s keep it there. You come into the room, you’ve changed the environment

geo: At least you didn’t say I contaminated it.

Joe: Sec, if it was a clean room, you did. So if you come, go into a clean room, you’ve contaminated. So you have contaminated with yourself. We all have as you come in and leave and go and be in the world. So that same principle exists if you time travel and you go back, even go back minutes.

That timeline has been contaminated by a new, similar, but different Georgia that came into that

timeline. That make sense? Yeah. Lee, what do you guys say? Are you,

Lee: Also that’s what creates a good story. If there was a way to go back in time and nothing was altered, there’d be no stories about time travel. In every story something gets affected, which causes something else to get effective, et cetera. I think in my [00:22:00] books. It’s like they try to do as little as possible with affecting the most change for them and not for a global atmosphere.

But they’re not successful at that either. Like, like of course they’re gonna do something that’s gonna create a bigger kind of effect and change.

Joe: a ripple effect

Lee: Yeah. And in the

second book, they go back in the second book, they go back into the nineties

to fix their family, so their family has issues.

So they go back in time when the issues began for the parents. And then it was just a fun way to go back to 1999. So

Did it.

geo: So did you think a lot about the plausibility or the science or was that something Yeah,

Lee: I definitely read a lot of time travel books. I watched a lot of movies that connected to it. Some of the ones that you mentioned, Joe, like 12 Monkeys. But also because the books are, adults have been reading them and honestly probably more than kids, but I really wanted to keep the the age, like 12 and up.

[00:23:00] So I didn’t wanna do too much, like I didn’t wanna overload 12 year olds with any kind of mathematics or anything that would bore me.

I kinda left out it. yeah.

Yeah. I think there’s nods to certain things here and there. He reads I might be mispronouncing it, but Godell, who is like a philosopher or scientist about time travel.

So that’s the passcode that he uses. So little things here and there, I kinda added into the books. But I’m not so smart in, in terms of science, math, but I didn’t wanna yeah, I didn’t wanna bite off more than I could chew in terms of

nick: You didn’t want a 14-year-old scrolling on the floor. All the mathematics of. The

Lee: Didn’t wanna. Yeah. Yeah. I didn’t want a 14-year-old being like, this guy doesn’t know what he is talking about.

geo: But it, kind of as simple as possible,

In general there, the sciences, there isn’t a lot of science.

Lee: Yeah. We have not traveled back in

Joe: No one’s done it.

nick: that we know of.

Joe: Yeah.

Lee: that we know of. That’s true.

Joe: Yes. No, that’s,

Lee: for the most part it’s speculation and, that’s good for a fictional author. [00:24:00] Like when there’s stuff that’s only been speculated, you could make things up as you go. It’s why writing sci-fi is fun.

nick: Just to be able to have that freedom of the unknown and

Lee: Yeah. Yeah. I’m creating worlds and like I said, most of my books are thrillers, but I’m more interested in moving towards. Sci-fi, the one I’m working on now has a little kind of like horror bent to it, but a little

supernatural. Yeah. Yeah. I wanna play around with it. I might do it under a pen name though, and then have separate.

Joe: from your, yeah.

nick: Is

that gonna be a ya a book as well or is it gonna be

Lee: No I don’t think I’m doing Y again. I think this is it. Yeah, you’re limited, there’s certain things you can’t do and I mostly write more disturbing thrillers. So I had to play a little, almost too nice for these where I want to go back to what I like to do.

geo: And I do think this had a lot more edge and it was the, but one of my favorite books when I was little and this [00:25:00] I’m somewhat dating myself, but also it was a really old book even then.

But have you ever heard of Homer Price?

Lee: That sounds familiar.

Joe: Yes.

geo: And I love those books, Homer Price and they’re illustrated by the guy that, that wrote that book Make Way for Ducklings.

Do you know that?

Lee: Okay.

nick: No.

geo: favorite make Way for Ducklings. No.

we might, we probably have that back there. No, but anyway,

Joe: It’s a time travel book.

geo: Anyways, I love the illustrations, but it’s like this kid, and he lives in a pretty rural area, but then it, like, all the little stories in it are things that happen and he has to solve these little mysteries and stuff.

So it really, it, I don’t know why it, it brought that to mind when I read ’cause there was something of a, there was an innocence to it,

Lee: yeah. Yeah, I wanted also, thank you. I wanted like a nostalgia factor and especially with the sequel the sequel kind of was when I was in high school, so like they go back to. At the [00:26:00] time that I remembered really well in terms of when I was that age. So yeah, I think anytime, a book connects you to nostalgia.

My favorite books as a kid were ULA and the Celery Stocks at Midnight by Deborah and James Howe about the kind of vampire bunny.

geo: oh yes. Okay.

Lee: those are my favorite

Joe: Very neat. I was gonna say,

Lee: adventure

Joe: Go ahead Lee. What was that

Lee: I’m saying and all the choose your own adventure

Joe: Yeah.

geo: Oh yeah,

definitely bump.

nick: Goosebump C Cho adventures were so good.

Joe: Yeah,

Lee: so I just was on a panel that I moderated last week at Thriller Fest and RL Stein was on the panel from

geo: Oh, that’s so fun.

Lee: was the best. He was like, we’re just gonna treat it like a standup comedy routine. And I was like, all

geo: that’s so fun.

Lee: Yeah, no, he was really funny. And he is very sweet. Yeah.

Joe: Yeah.

That’s cool. Your second guest that was on that.

was

in conversation

with Oh yeah,

Earl Stein. Yeah.

Lee: Oh yeah.

nick: about

that. Yeah.

Yeah. Jonathan Mayberry was had to [00:27:00] reschedule one of our recordings to go do an interview with

Joe: a

geo: he was doing An event.

Yeah. In

Joe: In conversation with,

geo: Stein.

Joe: or Earl Stein. Yeah. No, look at that.

He is

geo: I think we need

to get Stein on

Joe: Yeah. The universe is speaking to us. Our time travel from the future. I was gonna say we were talking about research and things and one that came to mind was the, I guess a mockumentary the history of time

geo: Oh, that was really good. Is

nick: that what mark du plus,

Joe: don’t, I don’t know who was in it. Yeah. It was the whole thing was about the creation of the time machine. And so this group, a group of or scientists makes a time machine and uses it, and then every time they use it. You see all these changes.

So like the Russians get to the moon first, or in technology, like the first

geo: it was really, it was a very clever

Joe: because the background,

Lee: was the name again?

Joe: The history of time travel.

Lee: History of

Joe: Time travel. it was

like, I think it was like 20 14, 20 15. Somewhere in that

ballpark.

geo: little [00:28:00] Easter eggs that were subtle, but like the pictures on the wall would then change when they’re like

Joe: or like the video game consoles that they use to build the time machine with to control it.

You start and you keep seeing it modify and yeah, it was, and then they go back to destroy the plans ’cause it’s ruining everything. So you have this whole

geo: yeah, it was really good

Joe: And then it, yeah, I don’t wanna spoil

geo: Yeah. Don’t spoil it.

nick: I think the one I was thinking of was safety not guaranteed with Mark

Lee: Oh, that’s a good one.

nick: And Rey Plaza,

Lee: I’ll be pause it. Yeah.

Joe: Yeah.

nick: Guy puts an ad in was gonna say about the ad. Yeah, Okay. Yeah.

Joe: Yep.

nick: yeah.

Was was definitely one of those time travel movies where I’m like, oh, that’s really good. Fun little adventure, trying to build a time machine as well. And everyone thinks he’s crazy.

He might be right. Mm-hmm.

Joe: We could just

Lee: That I love primer. It’s about

nick: Yes.

Lee: 20 years ago, I wanna say. Yeah, it was a small movie. I’m forgetting the director’s name. [00:29:00] Shane. Shane something. But it’s really good if you’re able I don’t even know if you could find it like beyond, probably like on DVD or something. But it’s great.

Joe: Yeah.

We’ll put

it in

nick: watch it on YouTube and

it’s

$3.

Lee: true.

nick: Oh,

geo: nice.

nick: Uh, Shane Cirth. Kth.

Lee: Yeah, with a C. Yeah.

nick: Is

Lee: then he did another movie that was like just as weird, not as good, but also interesting. And then that was it.

nick: Yeah. Primer was definitely one of those that were like, whoa. And

Joe: didn’t see

Lee: And probably made for $200,000. Like it was

really well made for how cheap it was.

nick: And still underrated,

Lee: Yeah, no, completely. Completely.

nick: my train of thought for a second. ’cause I kept thinking of primer.

Joe: Let’s go back.

Lee: That’s fair.

That’s

nick: like,

Joe: We got time travel back.

A couple

nick: all [00:30:00] brought me back on that movie and I’m like, Ooh.

Joe: I was gonna, I was gonna mention, ’cause we it came up in the conversation but just time travel the mind.

And how that can be a form of time travel where you don’t, it’s all just a construct. ’cause your brain can fa fast forward and imagine events, but also in the past you know it, which is somewhat corruptible. And so just in your own head, you could have a whole time travel esque story where you’re, in this loop, this mental loop of time travel.

And you have that. I don’t know if, I don’t think there’s any stories like that where you’re

nick: 51st Dates

Joe: That’s a,

I guess it would

nick: yep. 51st states

falls into that

geo: now what are you saying that you keep reliving something in your right.

Joe: not necessarily reliving it, but that the time travel component is more mental than almost in your brain than being [00:31:00] a physical manifestation of you traveling back into the past or into the future.

nick: which I.

I would think that 51st dates is Drew Barry Moore’s character is time traveling every day. She wakes up then.

geo: is that like Groundhogs Day?

nick: No.

What

she gets hit in the

Joe: Groundhog’s Day is a form of time travel.

he is time traveling back to the beginning of the day. but just keeps repeating and repeating. Keeps

it. He just keeps repeating

one day. Just over and over.

nick: Yeah.

Joe: And maintaining the knowledge of

nick: The previous day. 24 hours. Yeah.

Yeah. Previous experience.

Joe: Previous experience. There’s another one where they were stuck in a hotel. There’s been a few like that.

Lee: Oh

Joe: They were in, in a

Lee: yeah, with Andy Sandberg.

nick: palms.

No. Was

Lee: That one was great. Yeah. Palm Springs was that.

nick: was that it? I wanted to say that, but I was

Lee: was, it was like at the pandemic when it

came.

So like, it was

But I don’t have a memory around it.

Joe: It was like, oh, it was like time travel the

Lee: it was [00:32:00] really good. It

was,

Joe: right? Yeah. That was good. I’ll look it up and get that in the show notes too. A lot of good movies for time travel.

nick: Oh, a hundred percent. Like it’s such a

Lee: fun one to an argument, you could make an argument that every time you have a memory, technically it’s time travel.

nick: Yeah, I And that, that was the case of the

geo: the, and

Lee: Every memory you’re going back in, in time.

Joe: You are.

Lee: Even if the memory changed,

Joe: you do you will corrupt memories. So as you access memories, you can rewrite ’em. They’re not fixed in time. So it’s every time you pull a file out, you can make an edit, then put it back, and then when you pull it out again you go, oh, it was blue.

We, it was, we were driving a blue car Right,

it was red. So did you, to that point, did you time travel in a blue car? But now you’re in this, now in this

other timeline.

nick: E even sense can help can take you back in time.

Lee: Oh, yeah.

nick: Oui where the critic,

He had the oui and he was like,

And he

Joe: I think OU [00:33:00] has put a little bit of crack in his food.

Lee: they have said

that like.

nick: poison.

Joe: I think he was like, oh yeah,

ahead.

nick: say, Lee? I’m sorry.

Lee: Say, I can’t remember if what they say about deja vu is that deja vu. Oh, I not, this connects to dark matter. The deja vu could be a memory almost of a different slight multiverse of where you’ve Just the same, but something’s like a little off.

nick: So it’s that split in, thought process then. All right, one of us is doing this, but the other one is doing this.

Joe: Or, we’re in the matrix.

nick: Yes. Or it’s a glitch.

geo: could, it.

could be a simulation, say

Joe: deja vu,

Lee: Yeah. Look, it could be everything. We could be in a simulation that’s time traveling

Joe: Time travel, yes.

Lee: It itself, in a black hole again and again. Yeah. You don’t know?

geo: And then when you were talking about memories, it made me think of [00:34:00] the mento because in a way, he time traveled because he forgot everything and then had to go back and figure

Joe: 51st dates? Yes.

nick: Barrymore,

Joe: Yeah.

geo: I think I saw, I think I saw that.

Joe: And you keep going back to that Same. I can’t remember if I’ve seen that movie or not. I don’t think I’ve

nick: It’s been years and a half, but for some reason that movie popped movie mind. It stuck

geo: with It Stuck with you?

Lee: It’s a well-known movie. Yeah. It’s a beloved

movie.

nick: don’t know if it popped up on

Joe: they don’t describe it as a time travel movie, but I think they should. It probably would be more popular.

dunno. Adam Sandler? I don’t know how popular his movies are nowadays.

shoot. What? Laying a Shade down on,

nick: Sand, it’s not his nineties films where it was like, oh, every one of those was a hit. Yeah. Barrymore.

Lee: 50. First date was probably like the beginning of the end, yeah. Then he got a Netflix deal and he just started cranking him out

nick: oh yeah he’s

Lee: and like more power [00:35:00] to him, like I’m sure they paid him $50 million to do nothing.

nick: I would you get to hang out with your friends all day and Yeah,

Lee: Happy Gilmore too is coming out. I don’t have high hopes,

geo: that’s probably it.

Joe: with? Chris Rock and

nick: oh, grownups.

Joe: Grownups.

yeah. Then grownups

Lee: grownups. Yeah. Billy Madison is a classic. That was great. The weddings,

nick: the wedding

Joe: Wedding singer,

nick: Now we’re just time traveling through

Joe: The water boy. Yeah. There it

geo: we’re all reminiscing.

Joe: oh, remember when?

geo: I,

Lee: He and Chris Farley used to do this sketch on Saturday Night Live where they were like an old married, like couple, and they would read the GATS reviews and then just like shit on all the reviews. And it might be my favorite thing

nick: But

Lee: Chris Farley played the wife

she was like the positive one, and Adam Sandler was like the cranky, like old man.

geo: awesome.

nick: Oh, those were fun [00:36:00] ones. I miss those. But for I honestly think that there can be some kind of. Mental time travel though. Like I feel like out of all of them, that one might be the one that I can Get behind and being like,

go.

This is in the realm of plausibility

Joe: except I think it, when you start going down that road it’s your memory versus everyone else’s memory, right?

Yes. And so that becomes,

nick: because what was that movie with Jim Carrey?

He was a erasing Memories.

geo: Oh

Joe: Sunshine of a Spotless Mind.

nick: Would that be considered a time travel movie then?

Joe: I don’t

know if it’s time you,

nick: going back in his mind and

Joe: in his mind,

the way the movie was filmed and the story was told, you do have a lot of flashbacks where you’re going and you at some points in that movie, and it’s been a little bit since I watched it, but you were you were questioning where you’re in present.

’cause they almost fell back in love again. Because all their members are erased. Then they went back, so they reset and then they [00:37:00] fell in love. So you really didn’t have, you’re right, it was more mental. ’cause they didn’t chronologically go back, six months to the beginning of the relationship.

They just met each other and it was that kind of chemistry re-sparked and they had, they moved forward from there. So in some ways, yes, they reset. It’s

geo: It’s more of the talking about it like, like memories. Obviously

was saying yeah.

nick: of all of them, I think the memory one is in the realm of possibility.

Joe: That’s not a true chronological, you’re not really. Going back. I, in some ways you are, but you’re not really

nick: but trying to relive those memories in your head, that other person isn’t there.

So it’s changing your history.

Lee: Yeah,

nick: It’s just on a more

Lee: time travel element. There’s definitely time travel elements

nick: It’s just a personal time travel where no one else in your life is affected by it.

Other

Lee: There’s also the butterfly effect as well in that one [00:38:00] because their relationship changes due to the memories being erased as well.

geo: Yeah.

nick: Yeah. That’s the one where I’m like, it’s one of those not classified as a time travel, but probably is a time travel film. Like there, there’s so many of those that.

Fall into that category, like 51st dates and momentum. Is Momento considered a time travel movie?

geo: Momento.

Joe: Momento? No. It’s not a

time

geo: No, it’s a more It is his, he has that short term memory loss,

Joe: right?

nick: Which

Going by

geo: oh,

Joe: uhoh.

nick: I’m waving my hands around here and just,

Joe: a lot of hand waving ’em

nick: Yeah.

full hands tonight.

Joe: I was gonna say that we’re talking about.

Going in back into the past, but really that theoretically the math suggests you’ll actually be able to go forward

In time,[00:39:00]

nick: I think going forward is a better idea than going to the past. Like personally, I don’t think there’s anything in the past that I’m like, yes, I need to go to that.

Joe: There’s a lot of bad stuff in the past. Yeah. That I’d wanna

geo: And so you are hopeful that you are hopeful that the future may be better?

nick: Or I’m just dead in space. I don’t know.

Space.

Joe: in space.

nick: Yeah. If you go for

Joe: Hopefully you’ve done the math and you calculated Yeah. Where you need to land. Because you’re right If you miscalculate, then you’re are moving. Yes. You’ll be in a wall. Like you’re off a little bit. You’re just in a wall now can someone get me outta the drywall please?

nick: I’ve been splitting two.

Joe: Yeah. Why is someone, why is our walls talking all of a sudden? Sounds like Nick. No, I, so I think forward time travel, but it’s maybe not as interesting.

I don’t know. Maybe that’s why. ’cause usually either you’re forward time traveling, you learn something, oh man, [00:40:00] this meteorites gonna smash into the earth. And then you go back to convince people that you’re not, crazy and

you

geo: a Terminator,

Lee: Yeah.

Joe: Like Terminator. But they, when the machine is trying to kill you, I don’t know if you need a lot of convincing, not.

There’s a sophisticated AI machine hell bent to kill humans. Or

Sarah Kana

Lee: two.

Joe: particular.

Lee: Terminator two is still one of the greatest movies ever

nick: Yes,

geo: I think so. I love

Lee: just perfect. It looks fantastic. It like,

Joe: Yeah.

Lee: tens across the board.

Joe: when I was, this goes to, we’ve had this discussion about movies where the sequel is as good or better than the original. The first movie in the series. And I think the consensus we

Lee: one is great, but Terminator

Joe: two is, yep. Alien Aliens.

nick: Nope, we disagree with that one.

Joe: Superman.

Lee: Those are both good in their own

Joe: as good, [00:41:00] and I was going to say the discussion, Nick and I, we’ve come to some agreement I think, is that usually when you have that.

Is that the style of the movie changes,

off. So you have, alien was a horror, aliens was action. I think you can say the same thing about Terminator and Terminator two. Terminator one was more almost a horror thriller. And two was as action. It was, so you have that, the split between the movies and I think it is, it’s really, it’s well done.

I think if you’re writing a sequel, that’s a good way to go is to

Lee: Yeah. And then smart because it keeps enough of it the same, but also takes it in a different direction. So I think the audience wants something a little bit new from a sequel. So I feel like whenever they do that and do that right, it tends to be

Joe: Yeah. Yeah.

Lee: A lot of times they do it wrong though.

Like in the sequel, like I just saw yesterday, I saw that the Megan

sequel

Joe: yeah, I heard it.

Lee: That was an terrible movie.

Yeah.

nick: I forgot. That was already,

Joe: right. Yeah. [00:42:00] Yeah,

nick: I liked the first one. I just have not

Lee: one was fun and dumb, and then second one is like a full action movie and it’s just doesn’t work.

It’s

Joe: I think you, you have that with Slashers genre in general. You know that the second one is usually he just goes all

geo: or do you mean the 10th one

Joe: or to Yes.

Depending on the But I wanted it camper. Like I wanted,

Lee: Feel like that movie worked the best. It was leaning into its stupidity. Yeah.

But this one would have moments and then it would like veer from

Joe: Start taking yourself serious. Then you

Lee: A little bit. Like it had something to say about ai. It was like, I really need that from you, Megan.

Joe: Yeah.

Don’t need it.

Lee: we’re good. Just Yeah.

geo: we already know we’re

screwed.

Lee: Yes, it was. It was a Megan Ted talk. That was the vibe.

Joe: it is. They should lead with that. And that probably would get ’em some more fans.

Lee: Yeah.

Yeah.

Joe: No. Yeah. I think, yeah, forward time travel’s interesting. But yeah, the [00:43:00] storylines

nick: yeah.

geo: Yeah. So if you had to pick one, you would pick forward.

nick: Yeah. I have zero reason to go to the past. There’s nothing good back

Joe: Yeah. Yeah. Lee, how about yourself?

Where you

Lee: don’t know. I don’t know if I want to like to know the future and then have to deal with it. I don’t know.

nick: I just know going forward in time, you’re gonna either a die because of whatever kind of diseases are there now, or B, bring diseases that you already have now in the present

Lee: You’ll contaminate. You’ll fully

geo: go

Joe: contaminate to the

nick: the, you’re the,

Joe: so I, the question, and we will come, I’ll ask Lee and we can, George and I can answer, but how far are you going?

nick: Oh

Lee: If we’re already doing it, let me go like far, like I don’t want to go like 20 years. Let me really see 500 years

Joe: You are like time machine, like you’re going 10,000

Lee: yeah. Like

Joe: You’re

nick: I want 1000 years in the future. Thank you. Go full Futurama.

Lee: about right.

Joe: And hope your bank is still exists,

like, you know

nick: exactly.

geo: Like in Futurama, right?

Joe: Yeah.[00:44:00]

nick: We’re Fry going fu

Joe: I’m a billionaire.

nick: The full Futurama. How much is my interest now?

Joe: Yeah, so you’re going forward a thousand years, Georgia you did, you

geo: I don’t

nick: Lee’s going 5,000. Lee.

Joe: Lee, you said 500 or 5,000.

Lee: Yeah. That 5,000 might be,

yeah, like

Joe: forward, you’re

Lee: 500 and a thousand enough where it’s different. But I don’t want like Sea

Joe: Yeah,

Lee: Earth or any, yeah.

Joe: but so you’re going forward not backwards. Is your

Lee: For me.

Yeah,

I don’t know. I’ve written historical books, so Sure. I think it’d be cool to, like we were talking before about the Alaskan gold rush, like to go to an or. I’ve spent so much time researching. I feel like that would be really interesting. But yeah, sure. Let me go a thousand years in the

Joe: Future.

Okay. So we’re there. Yeah. ’cause going back to the gold rush, it seems like a hard life, even if you’re just

Lee: Really cold, like

Joe: like the vacation you don’t really want, like you

Lee: It’s not so much a vacation, like killing bear and eating bear and

Joe: [00:45:00] a, yeah. That’s a rough, that’s a

Lee: Let me go to a spot in the future if that.

Joe: There it is.

geo: gosh, I don’t know. That’s really tough because I feel like you’re really like just totally

control.

nick: Hopefully in the future.

they’ll have a Westworld type thing going

geo: No, It’s called Future world.

Joe: Future world

nick: Yeah. No, but I, in the future, I want a Westworld type.

Joe: Oh, I see. Yeah. You want to go to the future for the Yeah.

nick: That way I don’t have to deal with all the stuff of the past

geo: But you can experience it.

Joe: All right.

geo: Interesting. But you do know some of the complications that happened?

nick: bad happens. I don’t know what, I’d never, I didn’t finish the show, don’t worry. I can guarantee nothing it was a movie I’m actually going back to the 19th, whatever. Was it seventies?

Joe: You were going back to the seventies?

geo: No, not in the time. Travel. In the, talking about Westworld. Whenever the Westworld movie

Lee: Oh.

Joe: So you want, [00:46:00] so you, instead of Westworld, you want to go back to seventies?

geo: No, I, no.

Joe: Seventies world.

Lee: You want there to be a seventies world to go back

Joe: right. Yeah. So you go in the future to go back to the an

geo: I think that you guys

Lee: their version of the seventies, be a skewed version. It would be, real, but not fully real.

geo: I

dunno. I think I’d have fun. And it’d be more like if you could just go to different times. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Not,

and just

hang out a little

Lee: you don’t have to

pick

geo: what I’m saying,

like I, I think there’s some moments in history I would love to go to and just hang out, it’d be really cool.

But if it’s only one thing, one way I don’t know. Because you’re really like putting up so much to chance about going,

Forward. I don’t know.

Joe: Yeah,

geo: I don’t know if I can decide.

Joe: You don’t Dunno if you Boo.

that’s a lot of hand waving on there. I don’t know.

nick: Joe, what about you? Where are you going?

Joe: I’m [00:47:00] with Nick. I don’t really, I a

A person of color going back into the past, there’s not a lot of super great stops. So I, some it might be interesting for a little bit, but then you gotta deal with everything else. So yeah, probably I would punch my ticket to the future and I don’t know, I dunno if I would go super far. Like I see the point let’s just go hundreds and

nick: Like I want the future with flying cars. Like

Lee: Yeah.

nick: just we were promised this future and we do not

Joe: We have, there’s, there’s cars that can get you up in the air. That, that exists now.

nick: we’re,

geo: but it’s not like the Jetsons.

Joe: I don’t know if I want

Lee: Element. Yeah,

Joe: yeah. The fifth element I, and we drive with people with four wheels on the ground and they have trouble. So do you really wanna be in the air with people like zipping around like that? So if AI is controlling the flying cars and we just sit back and chill, then I’m for that.

But if people being, people are flying around in , 1500 pounds of metal[00:48:00]

and jet fuel, I’m gonna pass on that.

Lee: Disaster. More like minority report.

nick: I’m okay with that. Like that cyberpunk

Joe: Yeah. Thought police. I don’t know. I feel this going 10 years. 10 years up. 10

years.

’cause what can happen then? See, I’m still 10 years younger, but I’ll meet my 10 year older and then we can do stuff. We can like,

nick: wait, what kind of stuff are you trying to do with

Joe: into it? I

nick: get into it.

Joe: Why? Take over the world

nick: Oh. Oh, okay.

Lee: Oh

Joe: Not what are you guys talking about?

Stop it.

nick: drama. The way you were talking about it, I’m like,

Joe: No, we were talking about earlier about having your, yourself as your partner in crime or in Ah,

nick: Ah, trying to y you Yeah. Time looped it back around.

geo: wants to ti he wants to team up with

Joe: that’s

right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I guess I can go back 10 years. I go plus and minus 10. Just [00:49:00] this wheel of that the spinny and go the price is right.

geo: exactly when I would go back to,

Joe: yeah.

See now I’ve opened up a whole nother thing.

You get to go back and actually team up with yourself, like maybe your 25-year-old self, just go back and be like let’s get this done.

Let’s

do,

geo: are you, your, you 50-year-old

self?

Joe: The only reason I don’t wanna go back was because I was like, either I’m stopping at poor postdoc, poor grad student, poor undergrad, and none of that is there’s no capital to do anything.

So I figured if I go 10 years forward, hopefully I’ve, I have some capital. I’m not paying tuition anymore for kids or anything like that, and I’ve stockpiled some money and then now I come with my still youthful. Excitement about the future. I show up and we make it happen. I guess I could be a poor older also

nick: because

then you’re just changing the whole future for yourself.

Yeah. So then the you that exist now

Joe: I would, I, if we have time to prepare, if we have time to [00:50:00] prepare, I’m gonna get my country wisdom. And

nick: you’re gonna go live in the woods

Joe: no,

I would do things like if I, if you go you gotta go live and you can’t come back, then I would take things of value, so I would probably go get gold wire and things like that.

That would be a commodity to trade and sell. Very fixed things, but still light. So thin it up and then go, and then you have,

geo: Or would you get all the sports stats and then,

Joe: Oh, okay. Back to the future.

Lee: Sure. Yeah.

Joe: I don’t think, you’re going into the future. You’re, if you’re going in

geo: I’m saying if you’re going

Joe: are you getting?

geo: No, I’m saying you, I’ll never

nick: for you, you would end up going with sports stats, so you can

Joe: Yeah, but I’m going into the future. They’re no good. I got

nothing. One, I’m

like past too.

I said if I, if you go in the past, maybe, but you,

geo: yeah.

Obviously in the future people would be like, who cares? Who won the World

Joe: right. 30 years ago?

In 2025, the winner’s gonna be what? What do you mean it happened already? Oh

nick: wait. When am I

geo: like [00:51:00] this. I like this. A story of the time travel going wrong. Kinda.

Joe: You go, you show up, you’re like, oh, I’m going, I’m gonna go 10 years in the past with all these facts and figures you spent years memorizing and then you get in and you show up and you’re 10 years.

Plus just like

nick: who am I? What am I? Where am I?

Joe: Yeah, that would be

nick: I That would be the luck too. I’m going to the past. When am I the future?

Joe: you just spent all this time memorizing. Yeah, that would really suck. I’d feel bad for this person.

nick: I think it’d be really funny. Like I can’t wait to see that movie.

Joe: There it is, Lee, do you have any events or anything you wanna plug? You got your book, the two books you

Lee: yeah, I’ll be at Voucher Con, which is like the mystery thriller writer convention. The first week of September in New Orleans. Yeah.

Joe: cool.

geo: Very cool.

nick: What

Lee: I’m coming off like the second book?

is called Time Fixtures.

’cause they go back in [00:52:00] Time to Fix Time.

nick: Sorry. I, it’s been bugging me. I’m like, I don’t think you’ve said it. And I don’t know the name of it. Two points.

geo: Let’s fix that

Joe: miles

Lee: Oh, there you

nick: We’ll go back. Don’t worry.

Joe: Yes. Post edit.

It’s like

Lee: And yeah, it takes place in, in 1999. Like I said.

Joe: Nice.

geo: That’s awesome. ’cause then everyone’s worried about Y

Lee: Yeah, there’s a little bit of kind of Y2K paranoia and disc man, there’s a lot of kind of the music from that era.

geo: That’s really cool.

Joe: Yeah. But VH one is still, they had the, remember they showed they played party like 1999 by Prince On Loop

geo: for 24 hours.

Joe: hours. Yeah. It was like that. They still showed music videos, but they just had it on a loop. And

so,

nick: Wait. Hold on. What. VH one shows music videos.

Joe: They did? Yes.

geo: Can you

believe

Lee: that way.

Same tv.

Yeah.

Joe: Yeah. No,

Lee: One, it was [00:53:00] It was not just for teen

moms. I feel like they should bring it back music videos

Joe: you do.

like on, on Apple Music, music videos For songs like that, people still make

music videos. Yeah, but they’re not, yeah, they’re not as, there’s not TV for it, but They do it.

Yeah. They still make, but you’re right. Yeah. That was a heyday because people, they would try to outdo each other with their music videos and

Lee: I, yeah, I definitely grew up where I would watch MTV

Joe: Yep.

Lee: I forget the name of the show. It was the Request Quest. Yeah.

Joe: No, yeah. That was the life I was in.

geo: See, you can go back.

Joe: you can go, I

geo: You can go back,

Joe: be

creeping on

Lee: to,

Joe: creeping at college. Some the who’s this strange old man in the lobby watching

geo: TVI

nick: remember,

these days this song’s gonna be a hit in 15 years. I

Joe: I bet you this one’s gonna hit the top billboard. Come on, let’s get those bets.

geo: feel like something really bad’s [00:54:00] gonna happen if you’re older. Self goes, visits your young self. Actually, there was that movie that was really good. My old butt or

Joe: Oh, my, yeah.

The

Lee: my old

ass.

Joe: old

geo: my old ass.

My old

Lee: Yeah,

geo: I dunno.

Joe: The young adult version.

geo: But

That was really good.

I really liked

Lee: right where she’s on mushrooms

and yeah,

Joe: it was like mental

Lee: No, another Aubrey Plaza movie. Yeah

nick: Aubrey Plaza for the Win. she gonna be our time travel queen?

Joe: There we go.

Maybe.

Lee: But it’s,

geo: we’ll give award.

Lee: movies. There might be another one.

Joe: Yeah.

geo: But there was like, obviously Demi Moore being with her, like there could be some really bad consequences.

You’re like the nevermind.

Joe: Oh, you mean like substance? Yeah.

Lee: Wow.

Joe: But I think in that one it was more mental time travel, and I got back to that.

That’s another one

probably I would throw in, because you’re right, she was tripping on the shrooms and then she would have, she would see her older self.

nick: Is this the second episode this year? [00:55:00] We’ve talked about drugs and doing things with science.

Joe: I don’t know.

geo: Oh, I think there’s a lot more we could talk about.

Joe: There’s a lot

more we can

talk about.

nick: We’re gonna have It’s a lot that go hand in.

drugs, could do a whole

Joe: A whole

geo: episode

Joe: there. You heard in Air Force

nick: prepare for season three of the drug episode.

geo: Oh, what was the other show we watched? That was a series. Oh shoot. The, and they’re newspaper delivery and it’s based on the graphic novels

Joe: Paper Girl,

geo: Is that what it’s called? Paper?

Joe: Girl.

Yeah.

nick: What

Joe: it was four Girls

on Bicycles

geo: oh, and then that was a really good

Joe: Yeah, that was had some time travel. I was gonna say, for all of mankind, the Apple plus one, did they

geo: Did they time travel?

Joe: It’s an alternate. Reality.

geo: It’s an alternate reality. But nobody time travel.

Joe: mean it is time travel.

Okay, nevermind. That’s a whole different but I But it is ’cause there’s an alternate reality. But you’re right, it’s not time travel. Nevermind. I’ll scratch that. I’ll edit it [00:56:00] out

nick: No, leave it in.

Joe: I’m taking it out.

it’s Like

the Brussels sprouts. It’s gone. Yeah. Cool. I think that’s we’ve gone in and out around a lot of different

nick: We loop de looped it,

Joe: looped, de looped it, we wormhole it.

nick: Thank you so much, Lee, for coming on the show today.

Lee: Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, no, it’s a pleasure.

Joe: definitely. So

geo: and I’m looking forward to reading the second one. Yeah. Yeah. Let me know what, you, let me know what you think and yes, let me know what you think about the first one

Joe: Yeah, will do.

nick: I

actually didn’t realize that it was a young adult’s book until you said it.

I’m like, oh man. This is just an easy read. I like it.

Lee: I’ll take

it. a easy read.

nick: I just oh,

geo: my favorite books are young adult

nick: They’re just a nice breeze to oh, it’s an enjoyable read and.

Lee: Yeah, that was why I wanted to write them. I, like I said, I write more disturbing thrillers and I wanted a break from that. Yeah. The second one I think I wrote in like a [00:57:00] couple weeks. Like it

bad. Yeah. Yeah.

geo: Yeah, no, I, and I think that the character really for being that short time period, I think that character really matured and there was some more heavy things that came out later in the book. You know what I mean?

Lee: You’re dealing with the mom’s mental health, which becomes a big part of the second book and why they go back in time to fix her. Yeah the, with all young adult books, you need like issues to

geo: right. Definitely.

nick: Hell yeah. All right.

Joe: Yeah, you have me, Joe,

nick: You got Nick.

Joe: We’ve got Nick

Lee: Ali. And thank you again, Lee, and

Joe: and

nick: we went down some timey time

Joe: again and

again and

again.

nick: we went down some ttimeyhole

Joe: And again.

Stay safe out there when you time travel.

Love y’all.

Transcript: Fantastic 4 series: Episode 40: Mr. Fantastic (Reed Richards): Stretching:

Click link to listen or search Rabbit Hole of Research where you find your other podcasts:
EP 40: Mr. Fantastic (Reed Richards): Stretching
What would it actually take for a human body to stretch like Mr. Fantastic? Maria Dowell, MD joins us to explore the fascinating, terrifying, and biologically implausible science of stretching.

Transcript:

joe: [00:00:00] Hey, welcome back to the Rabbit Hole of Research down here in the basement studio hanging out. We’re bringing you the last of the Fantastic four Super series. This is, we’ll be covering all things stretchy,

nick: very stretchy

joe: Mr.

Fantastic. Himself. Himself. We are almost crewed up. You have me, Joe.

nick: You got Nick.

joe: got

nick: We’ve got Nick.

We got the foot of Georgia here.

joe: We’ve got,

I don’t know what that means, but

nick: she stretched away.

joe: she stretched away. I get it. Oh, I get it.

maria: and she left her foot.

nick: Yeah. She just, wanted to act like she was Still here.

joe: And we have our special guest.

nick: Wait. Hello there.

maria: Hello.

Hi, I’m Maria Dowell. I’m a pulmonologist at Northwestern and Laurie Children’s.

joe: Awesome. There we go. So people have been asking for someone to keep us sharp and on point with anatomy, and here we are. We deliver [00:01:00] on Reed Richard. Mr. Fantastic.

Just a little background if you’ve been following the series or if you’re new, the Fantastic four are fictional superhero team created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby.

First appearing in Fantastic Four, number one in 1961 from Marvel Comics. They were considered Marvel’s first superhero team of the modern era and help establish the more human, flawed and family driven style that defined Marvel storytelling. And a little more at sci-fi as we learned from some of our guests.

As I said, this is the fourth in the series, so episode 37 we had Nick Linsky. Talking about Sue Storm and invisibility, episode 38. We had Jonathan Mayberry talking about Ben Grime, the thing and strong skin. Episode 39. We had Dr. David Pincus, Johnny Storm, human Torch, spontaneous Combustion, and now we’ll be talking about Mr.

Fantastic Reed. Richard himself, [00:02:00]

the man of The fan, the group leader. He’s a scientific genius who can stretch his body into incredible shapes and lengths. He’s also a reckless scientist. He took his team and flew them into the cosmic

nick: I think reckless is a little bit of a

maria: experimental,

nick: them

maria: adventurous.

joe: But okay, we’ll touch this again ’cause I’m always a little like consent there because he just said, get in the ship, we’re gonna go check out some cosmic rays. And I don’t think he explained what could happen, but we usually open with a

definition, a little grounding open. And so I’ll do that, and then we get into it.

I do have a list, but this one here. So what does it mean to stretch in science? Stretching is a form of mechanical deformation. When a material is pulled beyond its original length, storing or dissipating energy in the process, and biology, stretching is dy. Stretching is the dynamic response of living tissues like muscle skin and connective fibers to tension [00:03:00] driven by proteins like elastin and collagen that determine whether a body snaps back or gives way.

But stretching is more than physical. It’s metaphorical and fiction. Stretchable characters like Mr. Fantastic Elastic girl, plastic man turn flexibility into superpower, embodying, adaptability, resilience, and transformation. They just don’t change shape. They change meaning. And today on this episode, we’re going to try and understand the biology and the science behind one of comic’s.

Most hand W Powers.

nick: hand wa

maria: I know.

nick: Whoa.

joe: Whoa. One of the most hand wa on powers.

nick: I don’t You say that every

joe: episode? No, I And this one,

every

nick: every

episode you’re like,

this

has an unreasonable

level of

handwaving.

joe: This one is up there.

nick: I don’t know about that, Joe.

maria: Human torch is not hand wm.

joe: Oh, I didn’t say it wasn’t that I,

maria: Oh, I, see.

Okay. I’m saying this is probably even, this might be more than the human torch

Okay. It’s on the spectrum.

joe: on the spectrum. It’s on the spectrum, yeah. And we actually I thought about it and I didn’t think about [00:04:00] the list, but I think we went in order of probably hand wa

real, realization, the hand waving on from percentage wise, I think invisibility, we probably can make someone invisible, mechanically or whatever.

There’s a path and we do that with materials. Strong skin. I think we talked about a few things. the human torch, was just a episode

nick: We were able to prove that to be able,

joe: we did, we got to some workable

nick: I think we’re gonna come to the same

joe: I don’t know.

nick: dunno. And

joe: We’ll

nick: gonna be like, wow, this is the most

probable

one out of all of ’em.

joe: I just think from a biological standpoint the reason is that with the human torch, what we did there was limit it to just the outer surface of a skin and separate that from internal organs.

So we didn’t have to figure out all the biology of making him completely heat resistant, just so that was nice. Here in this case, the same thing with the thing. He’s really just got the rocky exterior. So once again, that’s an external, there’s challenges, but [00:05:00] you go, okay, that’s external. But this one here, I think you have not only skin changing, you have internal organ structure.

Muscle bone. We have a lot of rigid structures. And Maria, here it’s just a lot of systems to

overcome.

E especially as fantastical as he appears in the comics where he’s not stretching just a few feet. He’s stretching, tens of

maria: He’s stretching.

He’s

splaying

out. he’s doing all sorts of

motions.

I was, thinking

about this and I

stretched,

my mind to

say,

When they

got raid,

whatever we’re calling that. I was thinking of the stretching as

The opposite

the strong skin. Right. Like whatever

happened To

the

collagen

and elastin and things that make up,

That or allow us to be stretchy or make up that structure.

It changed the

dynamic. Right.

And then I thought wait, his bone stretch,

his

organ stretch. All those things you said is cartilage stretches.

[00:06:00] what’s the common theme? One of the common things is collagen, right? We know That, and so maybe something cool

And mutated

happened to his collagen

in the opposite

direction.

Of the thick.

tough, thick

skin. right? So that’s one thing. But then I thought, how does he control it, it’s a balance. And You have collagen, you have elastin. and So thick skin guy has,

More collagen, less elastin and

maybe

Mr. Fantastic has

more elastin,

and less collagen or something.

I don’t know. What was The weird

mutation that happened,

joe: or mutations. Because you, I think you hit on a point and for all of, I think a lot of superheroes, they’re neurological control. You would have to almost reorganize to have that ability to at demand, stretch out and then recall and then have.

The nerve

maria: and why doesn’t it hurt? Because you guys, brought that up

with

why doesn’t it hurt?

When you know,

you’re,

your, you’re bumping against the tough skin,

thing Or your [00:07:00] back. Right.

joe: the human fla, we talked about the human tor with Johnny and

The pain receptors and things like that, like what happened there.

nick: Your body mutated to Be against that. Like, all right, We’re cool with this pain. like This, our nerve endings have changed.

joe: Yeah, yeah, I mean it’s but structures like bone are anti flex. Their design is

not

to be flexible. Is that, because of their content,

maria: right?

Again, it’s a balance,

right? They’re designed to be, to maintain structure,

But They do have some flexibility,

joe: but how much is flexibility? What’s our movement like? I’ve seen bones.

maria: Mine is not much

but Mr. Fantastic. It’s a lot.

joe: A lot. Yeah. But then would you be able to stand and walk if you had like rubbery bones, because then what, so I guess rubber, let’s say that you stretch, that means that you have an addition of some sort of mass, right? Because now you’re elongating and so you’re thin. You can do it two ways. One, you can get thinner and redistribute [00:08:00] cellular material or you add quickly and I guess so if he’s stretching is the bone.

Stretching with

it. Like it’s this, it’s a growth kind of thing.

maria: So you’re asking is he maintaining? mass?

joe: He

maintains strength, so you have to maintain ma mass. We have to, I think, assume that because he is still physically strong because if you stretch your arm out, it, you would lose, ’cause of the way the muscles overlap

and Yeah.

maria: If you stretch ’em too far. they can’t

contract properly. But he’s not normal.

joe: Yeah. But

maria: He’s got super normal.

joe: We gotta explain it how’s, what’s super normal. That’s hand w

maria: That’s hand

waving. Wow.

nick: I feel like,

she’s bringing good points here. And you’re trying to

maria: neuron stretch. If his neuron stretches then his

skeletal muscle can

joe: you could have, so or so.

nick: I feel like it would be weird if just skin stretched like,

maria: oh no, it’s everything. Yeah, it’s

joe: gotta be everything.

nick: You,

can’t just have. Loose skin fingers flapping [00:09:00] around

joe: Or maybe the timing, in the comics and animated and even the movies. It’s a very rapid response.

Maybe after he stretches out, it takes, he is gotta wheel it in to reform,

maria: but he’s in control he

can not, be stretchy and

look. perfectly fine And then he can flip a

switch. Do you think

that has anything to do with his level of intelligence? ’cause he’s super

smart.

joe: maybe you’re saying maybe you already had

nick: I feel like most superheroes do have a certain level of intelligence, to Control their powers Because so much of it. is, Johnny, with his being able to turn his flame

on mis invisible with her invisibility in force fields, it’s all very brain power based.

maria: And there’s precedent for that. Right.

The mind,

gut

access.

the,

nick: Oh, I feel like there are things now that some

people can do, but other people can’t because it’s just, all right, I’m able to control this part of my body. I’ve seen people be able to move their ears. That’s weird. But

joe: yeah,

maria: And There’s some people with really stretchy

skin.

For genetic conditions,

nick: Wait, you can move your ears. [00:10:00] What?

joe: I can, yeah. But we need video for

that.

maria: See it with headphones.

so just, I guess I was starting with the most rigid biological structure in humans, which we’re assuming Mr. Fantastic is a human and he has this and so one, he could, they got into, we, we touched on this before, genotype and phenotype, that he already had some genotype that predisposed him to, have, take advantage of the mutagen when it hit.

joe: And now he’s expressing that. Okay. But I think we gotta go one step further. You have. He can flatten out. So you do have a number of bones in your chest. Is that

maria: Oh yes. They’re called ribs.

They’re called ribs.

joe: Just

nick: is that what

maria: they’re,

called?

joe: I’m just

nick: like to eat those at barbecue

joe: been a while since I’ve taken anatomy, but yes.

And so they have to go somewhere. So now you’re,

they,

to flatten out. And then it, oh, go

maria: You’re

assuming that

they remain

ribs. There’s [00:11:00] collagen

in those structures too. so maybe if he can flip a

switch and be all stretchy in the skin, he can do it with his other organs.

And they can get more fluid.

joe: So fluid is good. ’cause I had an idea. What if he. What if its internal structures, juices up and it, you almost then become a fluid. And you could actually, there’s organisms like octopuses, things like that, that do have stretch. They can stretch their limbs and change shape and form and really elastic, but they’re usually hydrostatic.

And so could his bone structures and things be more hydrostatic and fill almost like a tube and then that would fill out

and the juice of his organs would then become would powered in his

maria: No. I think. you’re onto something. elephant trunks tongues.

Things like that. They don’t have bones in them. And they can do things and they can Change shape. So

joe: Camil chameleon tongues. They can also, they have, they can stretch out and curl and do all sorts of weird things, but and I will say curling,

you can roll your tongue.[00:12:00]

you can roll your tongue, that’s genetic.

maria: He’s right. He’s right. you, can’t, can he? Oh,

He can’t. He really Looks funny.

Yeah. Ooh,

joe: I can’t do that. What the,

maria: Yours is fluted,

Like aa.

joe: don’t know what’s

nick: Oh man

If only we had videos.

joe: Here it is.

maria: I don’t

joe: But yeah, no,

nick: hummingbirds tongues, don’t they roll up into their heads too?

No.

joe: know.

maria: Oh, they are, they,

do have,

to come out the, no, that’s probus,

joe: Yeah.

I don’t know what that is.

maria: Pocus Probus.

nick: Oh, I don’t know what that word

maria: that word is. like it comes out really long So it can go down. and, get the pollen and then it retracts up.

So maybe you’re Right? It does roll up.

nick: yeah.

I thought

joe: And I was gonna say that there are, with the, with kind of the thinking about the neurological axons and things like that, you could have a situation where you coil up, right?

So you have some length. And our, like our intestines. Our your intestines, average [00:13:00] adult’s about six feet long or so. Stretched out a little

maria: I think it’s longer than

that. Longer than that,

yeah,

much longer.

Like Probably in the

twenties.

joe: Oh, okay. So there you go.

feet, but it’s all coiled up inside of you. So

maria: I’m making it up,

I know

it’s longer than six.

nick: Yeah.

joe: We’ll put that in the show notes.

nick: All

I know is

joe: we got you here, Maria, to keep us

maria: Dang, this

is like a,

nick: feel like Maria’s closer than you are right now,

Joe. six feet.

right. I know. That’s

joe: That’s that’s, after you have a procedure,

nick: know anything.

joe: six feet left. Maybe that’s just a small, large intestine,

maria: that’s very

long.

nick: but yeah that’s

joe: I was gonna say that co that’s a nature. Does

maria: oh my God. 30 feet, nine meters The average.

joe: Wow.

There you go. People,

that’s a lot

nick: no, six foot,

lot of

joe: of intestine, but it’s

maria: probably more like twenties.

But

anyway, It’s

joe: coiled up

in there.

maria: yeah.

joe: a feature of nature, that it’s coiled. And actually, if you go to the ultra structure of the intestine, the villa, you have their coiled, and then you have the micro villa, which they’re on the [00:14:00] surface.

They actually are have this kind of , not coiled, but it’s it’s more folded structure. And so if you fold up something, you can pack it in, so a tighter space. So you could have this situation where so many structures are folded up, and then as you stretch

maria: yeah,

you

might have 25 to 30

feet,

Of a tube. But you’ve got a ton of surface

area inside, So agreed.

So you could, Lungs are similar. Yeah.

joe: Yeah, the lung’s, right? So they can flatten out. So he, you might have to juice up all the organs, maybe as a, maybe it’s not completely flat. There’s some lumpiness to it. And so maybe some things are being juiced and then

the

gi to generate the

fluid,

nick: really hate the way you’re saying

this,

joe: we have to.

But I think either way, I think at, if we had Mr. Fantastic here and we did some cell biology on him, I think he would have to have rapid cellular regeneration and growth. I think no matter how you slice it, how you stretch it that he would have to, [00:15:00] I think he would have to make new cellular material one way or the other.

Either stretching out or retracting back and probably both. Because the stretching out.

maria: So

elasticity,

and maybe some

plasticity,

nick: so

as he gets older, would his stretching ability

weaken

Or would it not retract as

maria: much

I say it would

get stiffer.

nick: I was just

thinking like an old rubber band.

That gonna right. That’s right. Yep.

joe: I thought it was interesting too. I was thinking about it and remembered

in the Incredibles, Alaska girl.

maria: She’s awesome. Yeah.

joe: But there was, when she was talking to oh, the woman that was making the super Edna,

maria: Mos talk to

joe: Edna Moons, and they were going over to suits, and Edna goes, it will stretch as far as you without injuring yourself. So that means that for elastic girl, there was some limit or perceive limit that you would stretch, and then you would actually cause physical harm, either get stuck there or not.

nick: No I took it as. If the suit didn’t [00:16:00] move with her, that would be the thing that hurt her.

joe: She said as

is, as far as

you, you would without injuring yourself.

So that’s more

nick: isn’t

joe: sounds more like it will stretch

maria: as far as there’s a limit you

joe: before until you hurt yourself. I, and it presumes that there’s a limit.

You, why say that, just say the suit was stretched as far as you can,

but it said as far as you can without injury. There was a, there was actually a qualifier there of injury,

maria: total

tangent.

But All the garments,

worn by the fantastic war, Why don’t they burn up or overstretch or are they

also imbued with The same

qualities.

nick: What It was

joe: Unstable,

yeah. Something like that. Yeah. Reed. Reed made up all of the

maria: Okay.

joe: outfits

maria: never change. Okay. never change your clothes.

nick: They

maria: assume they meant to,

nick: Adjust

to their abilities

joe: Yep. And even if they swapped, there was a,

what’s

that? A comic or the animated series where they switched power Johnny and

Sue

Switch Powers, but their suits still

nick: all of them. did. Mr.

joe: because they touched That’s right, yeah. Yeah. It was like by tut, right? Yeah.

Yeah.

nick: [00:17:00] Mr. Fantastics and in the comics Reed Richards can stretch up to 1,500 feet.

Just

so you know that’s his limit.

joe: That’s a pretty,

That

maria: was me being

speechless. Oh, wow.

I didn’t know that

joe: I looked at, I found it had about a hundred to 150% stretch limit before, before you tear. So that’s it. That, and that’s not a thousand, you said whatever, a thousand feet,

nick: feet.

joe: That’s not 1,500 feet. And,

is a,

so that means you would have to create new cellular material to keep stretching. That, that would mean that you would have to have some very fast growth of cellular material and then break down of the material.

maria: Wow.

That’s,

yeah.

Also,

nick: he can actually move his body parts

and

create the exact same part within himself.

maria: Wait,

what? example, please? Yes.

nick: I was reading comic recently with my daughter for a nighttime story where Reed goes [00:18:00] ahead and. They Reed and sue find a decayed body inside of a Doom bot, and he proceeds to put his eyeballs in his fingers

and

have it go throughout the body to examine it without

disrupting

the whole

body

itself.

It was absolutely

joe: So we can,

maria: is he a giant organism of

pluripotent cells,

and

he can just like, wow,

joe: just one big stem cell

maria: is one

joe: that’s going one, so yeah, that would fit that.

nick: Here you go.

maria: And there your regenerative aspect.

Ew.

Yeah.

joe: So that means Yeah, he could actually. Juice up his insides, take advantage of the kind of the hydrostatic skeleton.

nick: Also his making

maria: multiple, Appendages. and.

joe: And he maintains strength in all those appendages. Yeah. And

maria: So he’s a shapeshifter,

nick: Yeah.

But he

does wear himself [00:19:00] out while doing that,

joe: Yeah. So you

nick: I can send these to Joe And hopefully we don’t get them taken down.

joe: we’ll put ’em, in the show

maria: notes. Okay.

joe: Yeah, no, he would, you’re right, he is almost like a shapeshifter where he can manipulate,

nick: which Miss Marvel was able to do that as well.

Where

When she first got her power, she ended up changing into Carol Danvers.

And she

thought she was Carol Danvers then for a bit.

joe: But She Can mystique stretch if she. Or no,

nick: miss

that’s her powers

joe: will. Sorry, I meant would rogue stretch. So when she absorbs powers, so would she absorb Mr. Fantastics power?

nick: I’d

assume so. She

takes over anyone’s

Like No matter what it is, her abil, Her power is to take other people’s powers.

joe: a little

nick: And depending how much of her power, Their powers that she gets. It can either drain

them,

joe: Completely kill

nick: Yep.

joe: And then she, and she permanently gets their

nick: depending

on how long [00:20:00] she Holds on. Yes.

maria: I was thinking of the

stress and the strain for

Mr. Fantastic.

What

would

he do in a vacuum? What were, what if he were in space?

joe: Oh yeah. would he

maria: would he just Yeah.

Be a puff up?

blobby, protosome thing? or,

what would

joe: I,

presume he can control it. So you can you become more rigid?

maria: But he use gravity though.

joe: So you think it’s gravity based, especially if it’s

maria: some,

there

has to be some force,

right?

In in order to deform something.

That’s the Strain part.

force is do in space? It just loops, Right.

I’ve never heard water.

say, so maybe you’re

right, That sounded a little goldfish like that. does

joe: not have surface tension in water and space? Is that where you have it and I’m not,

maria: I don’t know.

my mind thinks it breaks down to

the smallest little thing.

that would,

joe: Yeah. People

they,

shoot water at each other and drink

nick: Yeah. They have water. gun fights up there. Like

joe: And the water actually at this, it does. Blob up and itself, it has its own surface tension, it still has its integrity, but it’s not fluid as we [00:21:00] think about it on earth.

That’s interesting. I don’t know I to look ’cause you can soak it up a sponge. Yeah,

maria: do that in

joe: I think it has its properties there, but a vacuum. I’m trying to think what happens to marshmallows. If you put it into a expand, they expand like in one of those flavor saver, vacuums, you suck all the air out, they get puffed up.

nick: yeah, they

joe: I would think that would happen to him. He would just puff up.

nick: So

he would just end up filling the space that’s in there.

joe: I, it, I presume if he can control how big it’s right, he can control. But if he can control his cellular growth and expansion, then he actually won’t experience anything necessarily be like a normal human.

You would just control that.

nick: What do the human do when there’s no. When they’re in a vacuum.

joe: Yeah. I think he, but I think he, I’m saying I think he can maintain a shape,

nick: but you’re losing consciousness too then. If you put Reed Richards in a vacuumed sealed room, I.

suck out all the air.

He’s not gonna be conscious enough to keep himself together.

maria: [00:22:00] But he might be because

he has the ultra structure to combat whatever is expanding him.

That’s why I think he can Use gravity to help

deform himself. That’s the stress on his system, and the strain is all the little movements that, that stress creates.

So that’s the deformation.

if he doesn’t have that,

then

he fights the opposite direction to keep himself together. I think he’d be fine.

joe: Yeah. I think you’re right. He would run outta oxygen and if he needs oxygen to live, and yes, he would. But he could be, I don’t know. Could he self.

Oxygenate through cellular breakdown at some level. I don’t know what his respiratory would be like. Is he using his lungs the same way as normal? Because if he’s flattening himself out and he is doing stretching and he is doing activities, then how is he actually inflating his lungs to push oxygenated blood through his system?

So I It’s almost a whole lot of

maria: Yeah. he, He’s maybe he’s turning his skin into, a respiratory system or something.

I don’t

nick: Being able to move [00:23:00] his organs and stuff around. He Could theoretically pump the oxygen that way? No.

joe: or if he, you, I don’t know until you’ve, gimme a better terminology.

When he juices his insides, then he would become more, you would have you would have dissolved oxygen in that fluid that can then be used and distributed in a very different way than a typical

maria: listen system, if Somebody can deform

themselves

that degree, they

could probably change

their hemoglobin to hang on

to whatever,

oxygen and use it over and over again.

Yeah.

I dunno.

nick: I feel like this whole series, you’ve

said

maria: the worst word every episode.

Wait, it was juicing

this time. Juicing your Organs. Juice

joe: up. His organs.

It’s

all squishy. Someone poke, Reed,

nick: so

for

his skin then we’re back going.

on the skin episode.

That’s

joe: right.

nick: But

how, like I wonder [00:24:00] if he does get cut, does it cut him or is he, just,

joe: See,

I think if he has increased

cellular regeneration,

I think he’s almost like a Wolverine or

nick: that’s what I was, thinking, like how

joe: That he would actually be able to heal cuts. And that’s a comic thing. I don’t, I’m trying to think if I’ve seen him injured like that.

nick: I don’t think I’ve

really

seen him,

someone

else

actually

do something

him other than what he does to himself.

And that’s where it’s huh.

joe: And it’s good in a comic that he runs out of energy because if you are doing this increased cellular regeneration and manipulation of your physical, both your external structures, but also your internal, that you would have this.

Yeah.

He could just

nick: I feel like he definitely does run out of his own

joe: He could be an octopus in the shape of a human,

maria: but I don’t think you can injure him. I

do think he can run out

of oxygen. and thus energy.

He’s a little beat after.

he reforms his shape.

nick: I feel like [00:25:00] that’s one of the main ways that he gets injured. And then if someone’s attacking his mind,

that’s

another way to

get to

joe: And that fits to what Maria was saying, that about the physical, mental control of the systems. And so if you are being mentally challenged and then also have to do physical challenges I think if he was playing chess and trying to, stretch out, would he be limited? Would he be

maria: able could we beat

him at chess Is what you’re saying? Beat

him at chess

We can beat him chess.

nick: no, ’cause

joe: outta reach,

right?

nick: do

his

lab stuff. I don’t know what you guys call that stuff, But he’s stretching himself out into multiple

joe: Yeah. But if you’re grabbing a pipette or something like that, you’re not doing a lot of

nick: a what

joe: it’s

nick: a pipe,

Are you

smoking a pipe. at The lab,

joe: called a pipette.

nick: What year are we

joe: pipette?

nick: Joe, I can

really picture you just with a

maria: but he can get snacks.

while he is in the

lab without moving.

joe: So we had we had some [00:26:00] fans stop by and that was one of the things they said they wanted stretching ability to reach the snacks. And so that’s it. But I think you would expend more energy getting the snack than you would actually could take in by the snack.

nick: Why, how many Big Macs are you gonna say, Joe?

joe: Yeah, I Big Macs. So I, once again, if he’s regenerating cells at that level. Then that puts him at the Wolverine Deadpool calorie load.

maria: That’s high metabolism. High

metabolism.

joe: We’re talking maybe baseline 10, 20,000 calories, just resting state. I think if he’s doing this other stuff where he is juicing inside and reforming, you may be in hundreds of thousands of calories.

nick: honestly,

he can take that all down With one bite.

joe: one bite. Was he, is he eating a whale? What are we talking about there?

nick: Open his mouth

and then shove everything in.

He doesn’t really need to sit [00:27:00] there and

joe: I guess you’re right. How’s he, what’s his in like stomach what’s his

maria: maybe he does take Something. in and then

he changes

all of his organs into a

big stomach, into big intestines There go. Extract

it on. And then

put your organs,

back. That’s,

I think he can, I

think he can

manipulate.

everything.

joe: Gotta get Jeff Goble, man.

nick: Oh yeah.

joe: Jurassic Park when he goes, that’s one big pile of

nick: what did he say? I’m

joe: That’s one big pile of poop.

think he used a different word there, but

maria: dinosaur.

joe: So maybe that’s so he can, but still that’s a lot of calories. That’s not so that means, as we talk about with other superheroes, does he have some metabolism change or more efficient? That’s been re pointed out. If he can do all this, then why can’t he change? Is his proteins that do work also difference and use and store energy.

Does he, is he using some sort of variable biological high energy [00:28:00] storage? Vehicle

maria: I like it. I think it’s a great theory.

joe: Yeah, that’s it. A lot of handwaving in there.

maria: Handwaving

nick: nailed to

joe: lot of handwaving.

But on the stretching thing and elastins great and that’s what humans have. But I was gonna say, the other thing I had found was Resilin

It’s a

nick: those of us who don’t know,

joe: Yeah. It’s a structural protein that’s found in certain insects. It was discovered in 1960 in Locust, and it functions as like a rubber biological rubber band. It can stretch recoil, it can store mechanical energy with minimal energy loss. And it’s found in areas such as wing hinges, jumping legs for frogs fleas, locusts or feeding or vibration systems like Circadas and things like that.

So it’s a very flexible elastic, protein, more elastic it can stretch up to 300% without damage. And and then there’s synthetic forms [00:29:00] that are engineered and they can stretch a little bit more about 300, 350, 300, 400, 400%. And so you could have used this modified structural protein.

maria: Mm-hmm.

joe: So when a cosmic ray hit

maria: mm-hmm.

joe: he had some sort of, I don’t know, I actually, I didn’t look up what the

maria: Elastin goes to lin

joe: Yeah exactly. Yeah. Yep. Or Reed was monkeying around with CRISPR and head, and I given everyone a little bit of a, he was trying to create superheroes in the lab and. The cosmic ray was the activating function.

I, I just think, I think Reed was up to something funny and I think Doom called him out a couple times about that and said, Hey, that, he experimented on you guys to the rest of the team. Because I think that’s what I think there was, I think he intentionally did

it.

maria: Brilliant.

but disingenuous.

joe: Yeah. Yeah, a little bit. That’s

maria: Experimenting on your

friends

Watch out

joe: using CRISPR in there. Hey, take a look at this

maria: [00:30:00] yeah, let’s see

what happens.

nick: you did that to me last

maria: let’s see what happens.

nick: What are you trying to say?

joe: you get a suit and a meal. But yeah, that, that was one that I found where you could actually start to go in and you could get something that’s a little more stretchy. And if you can combine it with some of these other things we talked about. With that,

would

that get you there to, yeah.

Closer to maybe stretching a little bit. I don’t know, about a thousand feet.

I just think 10, 10 feet

even. That’s a lot.

nick: I do feel like he was stretched further than that in a

comic before where, I want to say it was a

issue

of Spider-Man that was like a alternate universe where something was happening to earth and Peter snapped and stretched out Mr.

Fantastic. To keep everything together.

joe: Yeah.

nick: And that was a

weird Issue. It was dark. And

joe: now did he come back together or did he No. Stay, no.

nick: Reed was pretty much in [00:31:00] a agonizing state.

joe: So he, there was a,

maria: but he didn’t do it

he was stretched.

So back to the mind, body, part. yeah.

Ah,

nick: Where he was keeping

stuff together and it was just like. He

was not,

joe: doesn’t matter if you knock him out, if you,

maria: if

You could injure him, But if he is yeah. If He’s conscious

and

Reshaping himself,

whatever, what are

we calling it Deforming himself. I don’t know himself. Stretching, himself. There we go. Stretching himself.

joe: He Stretching We’re not using that,

maria: to

stretching himself, then he’s in control. But if you take that control

away. we could inre him. We could hurt

him.

joe: That’s it.

maria: are

we working for Dr.

nick: Doom

today?

joe: got it. We can get him.

nick: I do feel like him and Doom are a very good, villain, hero matchup, because

they both do have their darker side as well as a good side.

’cause

what Mr. Fantastic ends up becoming the maker

who

is a [00:32:00] alternate version of him that is absolutely off the walls bonkers where. He wants to control absolutely everything. And Doom is a person that is trying to keep his

country

in order and wants to better them, So it’s like they

have

the good and bad

in them,

and it’s always so cool to see when, yes, they still fight.

But

what I wanna say Doom is the Godfather to Reed and Sue’s children.

joe: Yeah. Yeah.

nick: And

what one of the last issues we read, Reed ended up doing a thing where he took out a whole block

New York to take out some alien invasion, and he sent it a future

year

in the future.

Doom, got found out, freaked out, tried to fix it, and as soon as that year was up, doom [00:33:00] couldn’t do anything.

And

Reed ended up sending him a picture saying, Hey, I know you tried, but what I did worked and here’s a picture. knowing, letting you know that they’re all good. It’s like

they

still, they’re frenemies.

Yeah. that’s, I think That’s what I’m trying to go at. Yeah.

joe: And it reminded me of something with talking about that and the interdimensional mass storage, and we had this with Cyclops and his eye powers. Now he’s pulling from another dimension to use the optic blast that he has. So he is opening a portal through his eyes.

But we had this, I’m trying to think who else. We’ve talked about this where. This mass conversion. So the one way is that he’s has some rapid cellular, gener generation and then retracted. But what if the mass comes from another dimension? And that would tether into kind of Reed’s overall story of his [00:34:00] intelligence, science, stretching, and then this dimensionality that he has

maria: A human portal,

joe: A human portal, right? So he actually is, instead of channeling energy through his eyes, he actually is channeling through himself. And then you could get to a thousand feet.

maria: Okay.

nick: Where

is he pulling it

from?

joe: from? That’s

maria: it’s still him.

nick: no matter what part of it? You

go to,

maria: His brilliance. there

joe: could be many hims though, right across the

maria: There are Many,

hims, right?

joe: And so he’s just pulling from and himself.

maybe in, in some other dimension, he becomes very tiny and shriveled. And while he is stretching out or from multiples, he’s just pulling a little bit of material from many reeds.

nick: Are you high right now?

joe: No,

nick: That

one came outta left

field for me. I was

like,

joe: know.

maria: I like,

joe: I know, but

maria: because it’s so weird.

joe: a lot. [00:35:00] It gets you we gotta, we’re trying to make the jump from 10, 20 feet to a thousand. And so I’m just throwing something out there. Then

nick: take that,

take

the stretching ability to, any other stretcher, miss Marvel, Elastic girl,

plastic

Are they all doing that?

joe: So I, like I said, I think Elastic Girl has some limit and that was revealed. We don’t know what the limit is, but even in the show, she only stretched so far, she didn’t stretch a thousand feet. Okay. Maybe she has rapid regeneration. Maybe it’s a genetic, she was born that way.

maria: But

she always

has an appendage or she

always has a body,

appearance, right? Yeah, that’s right. She does. Indeed

but Reed

doesn’t, oh, So I think if you

joe: No. I’m gonna stop. She turned into a parachute and a boat.

maria: She did, but she still had,

A head,

joe: had a head. But I think Reed also has a head, usually his head doesn’t flatten or

maria: because it’s all coming from there,

joe: I’m just saying He also doesn’t but Right. Go ahead.

maria: Yeah, but he can’t maintain mass then, when [00:36:00] I’m thinking about that A thousand feet. I’m sorry. he’s gonna have to, do some regeneration because if

you,

took his mass and you

stretched it. out,

joe: that’s right. Strength and

maria: tiny little thread trying to beat up on you.

we go.

joe: He gets there.

Tink. But if you’re pulling mass Other dimensions and building up as you go, then you can maintain. And then when you get there, you have a powerful punch. ’cause now you’ve been

maria: and when you’re going back to

yourself, you just shove it back down the hole

nick: attacking anyone at that length.

joe: He’s grabbing things. He’s don’t, why stretch a thousand feet if you’re just for a

heck of it?

You’re

maria: just

joe: look what I can do kids. And

nick: I would,

joe: think he’s, I

maria: and then a Breeze comes.

and blows his

like, he’s

joe: grabbing something. Even if something, you could, it could be something that’s trivial as grabbing a knife off the ground at a thousand feet stretch.

You don’t have enough

nick: you grabbing a knife from a thousand feet away?

joe: He’s gotta get, he’s not close

maria: to stab somebody. Of course.

Secretly,

nick: Oh man. I left something at home.

Hold on.

Where What are you doing? I’m grabbing something, don’t worry. [00:37:00]

joe: But if he had, if he was pulling mass and keeping his strength, and then, ’cause when you stretch out, also we’re just talking about stretching in a vacuum.

It was like a physics test. There’s no friction, but

maria: I know

joe: i’s equating,

maria: worth thinking about

joe: if your arm is stretching out and then your gravity’s pulling on it, right? So now as you’re getting thin, not only will it get thin, but now it’s just slump. It’s gonna have a big,

it’s gonna sag in the middle like a, like a weighted clothes line.

And so you’re gonna have a big saggy thing and at the end, your hand’s gonna be out there and super skinny and thin. No, I, yeah.

It’s gonna

be weird. Yeah. Yeah. A thousand feets. That’s a

maria: lot.

That’s a,

joe: I think inter dimensionality, now I’m gonna go with it.

maria: A thousand feet. That’s like

football

field, right?

joe: A thousand feet. A

maria: That’s a hundred?

yards.

Yards. Oh, that’s 300 feet. Sorry. That’s three, three and a Three. plus, sorry.

We’re

nick: How big is a football field.

maria: I know that’s A hundred yards. but I,

Yeah.

Okay.

[00:38:00] That’s,

joe: And there’s three feet in the

yard.

maria: I

like the,

portal part.

I think that’s pretty good. That would explain a lot, right? ’cause he can pull on the energy and the Oxygen from whatever. He doesn’t have to maintain. Lung volumes

or,

Or blood volume or, yeah, he just yanks it.

joe: you put ’em in that vacuum. He is just

maria: pulling from

joe: some other dimensional Reed that’s now suffocating for no reason. I can’t breathe. What’s wrong with me?

maria: He would not have to eat a whole pasture of cattle to,

joe: that

is true too.

maria: to maintain

his energy level.

joe: It’s but you would need to eat though, because to maybe opening his portals, that takes some energy. So he would need, he, you might not even have to sustain it during the stretching.

nick: I feel like you just put this weight anymore into hand.

Avium.

joe: It was already

maria: I think if you’re a portal, it just is.

mean, if we’re gonna, we’re, and we’re gonna have to embrace the hand WM here. I’m trying to actually, the portal might work like, ’cause Cyclops does it, I’m not saying that’s not hand wave him also, but

do the cosmic rays make him smarter?

nick: I

[00:39:00] don’t think

joe: I think he was already like genius level,

maria: right?

nick: I think he was

joe: yeah.

nick: Top universe.

joe: That was his thing.

maria: So it Didn’t

hit him in the head.

It hit him everywhere else.

nick: I don’t think.

it affected

joe: Maybe. What was his personality like before? It felt like he was the same, but we started close to him wanting to take his friends up to the cosmic race, his wife, his brother-in-law, and his best buddy to get bombarded by Cosmic Ray to see what would happen to him.

And then they crashed, landed back on earth I believe, and then they woke up with powers.

maria: Boy, And how did they ever

trust him again? That so

rude.

nick: I don’t know about you, but I’m looking for power’s.

joe: Yeah, you

maria: Okay. But

it’s

joe: there’s a an advertisement

going

to explore cosmic ray. Are you in next one? Yes. I

maria: it’s a wild card, what you’re gonna get. You could turn into a giant nose,

you know,

nick: I am

maria: just

one

joe: cancerous tumor or you’ll get superpowers.

maria: [00:40:00] flip a coin. It’s a

gamble

I’m

willing

nick: to take.

Either It’s gonna be something, wild And

joe: That gets into that and there’s a lot of non-consensual superpower gaining in comics.

nick: Oh, a hundred.

joe: And I think. I think this was one of those cases.

nick: I feel like most of them are like,

oh, no no one’s really I’m going

for

joe: Some are accident, truly accidental. Like Spider-Man, he got bit by a spider while he was, and

once again, poor lab animal control that, there was, there’s issues, but some powers are like, you’re actually experimenting. You’re actually trying to do whatever thing happens to you and that’s you consent it yourself.

Now was it, should there be, OSHA rule? Should you be looked at and there, human, scientific experimentation, ethics. Yes. But I think you have that category, but then you have the other category where it’s just like. We’re gonna like we joke about the reign of Superman comics where it was like, we’ll give you a sandwich in a, a suit if you lick this rock and we’ll see.

It’s, and we, and [00:41:00] the scientists know something. Something’s crazy’s gonna happen.

nick: don’t know what’s gonna happen but Something’s gonna happen.

maria: Who was that little kid that was chasing back to the Incredibles for a minute that was chasing

Mr. Incredible

around wanting to be

him. And then Syndrome.

Yes. Syndrome. I Forgot how he got his power. What does

do? he

joe: he doesn’t have power. That was his whole point. He created technology.

maria: Oh, it was technology.

That’s right, that’s right. Fake power.

nick: Did you hear the theory that he was actually a

Mr.

Incredible son?

joe: What are you watching?

nick: So many random things. on YouTube.

Yeah. There. Legitimate

joe: son or yeah,

wow.

nick: That was pre elastic girl.

joe: Interesting.

maria: Yeah. That

it was

one of those things I was watching and I’m like, that would be weirdly

joe: It would be.

nick: And that’s why he was

going

around with a

joe: Right.

He had all of the shrine to him and he was older than Violet. It’s Right.

maria: but smaller than

Violet.

joe: [00:42:00] Shorter,

was like stocky. He had, it was a super

nick: he looks like dash

joe: a non-super, right?

maria: He was Dash,

with a

big head. Yeah.

nick: And his power was having a big brain.

maria: Yeah. I wonder what the, I always the genetics of superheroes, so we have Sue and Reed and they have kids

Mm-hmm.

joe: and they both are powered. And so it’s whatever the mutation was, it’s not, it’s actually

could be passed. It’s hereditary, so

maria: it wasn’t somatic

Wanda had kids too,

nick: mary Jane.

Mayday she has powers.

joe: Some,

maria: did Wanda’s,

they

joe: already genetic, right? So with

nick: have

maria: powers. Wanda’s kids had power. Wanda.

and Vision.

joe: Yeah, but vision wasn’t

Android,

maria: He,

joe: I don’t know how that worked, Yeah. right. That’s a different okay. maybe,

maria: was gonna

say wrong topic.

I say with,

joe: with I was gonna say with Re Reed and Sue who got bombarded by the cosmic race, usually, sometimes that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s [00:43:00] gonna pass that you’ve affected your. Germ line. Your germ

maria: cells,

the non somatic ones. I would think it would affect them all.

Yeah. Yeah.

joe: What do you think it would, Yeah, mutate with similar, so really the mutations would be

maria: I think it’d be random.

joe: Okay. So that’s why the kids not necessarily have invisible and

maria: I have no

evidence. What else

I would predict it.

would be

like rolling the D It’s rolling the dice going up in the cosmic race. Yeah. So It’s every kid would be different. That’s the weird part.

joe: but also, but that, you can say that with Sue because she has all of her a, your women are born with all of their

maria: you got all your eggs.

But

joe: sperm are regenerated. And so that means his germ line, the actual progenitor

maria: And maybe that’s a wild card. Why,

why they have different powers

joe: and maybe, and you said maybe it’s just one big stem cell. So maybe when he reproduces, he just regenerates some genetic out of the juice soup.

maria: Gotta throw juice In there.

don’t you?

joe: [00:44:00] I did it. I was gonna

nick: juice soup

there, Joe?

joe: I was trying, I’m birthing a new term.

Soup Primordial

maria: Mm-hmm. That

joe: Could you

imagine? He’s like lashing around after he gets out of a battle.

nick: One of my

maria: favorite. I think that’s what happens. And then

nick: And you’re saying juice so much and

maria: and then the cells decide, oh wait, I’m the heart cell and oh,

I’m the liver cell and oh I’m your

bones’

joe: have little, or you could just

maria: go where they need to nuggets, little

joe: in there that are for me.

maria: I believe that.

joe: And then. And then you would just, and that’s why you can move the organs around, like you said, they move, they’ll reform his livers here.

And that goes to what Jonathan was talking about, like the medical treatment. Could you imagine like cutting into him and it’s just just

nick: don’t think you’d even need

to cut into him,

He could just pull it out? to the

joe: he’s he’s incapacitated. You gotta help him out. Like he’s now, his heart’s stopping or his, his lungs are not inflating.

maria: I don’t think you could cut into him if he were conscious,

joe: he’s un, let’s say he’s unconscious, you knock [00:45:00] him out and now you’re gonna have to do some work, right? Because we’re saying that when he is conscious, his cellular regeneration or his interdimensional mass, Ree equilibration is so active that if he is

conscious,

he will stop you.

But that means if he’s conscious and he wants medical treatment, he can allow you to open him up.

That would be,

nick: he just open himself up then.

joe: Can you just open yourself up?

Can you make a pore?

maria: Yes.

nick: he’s able to move

every

other thing around his body. Why wouldn’t he be able to just

plop

it out front?

joe: Like he would just move it out like in here’s

maria: I’m gonna move it right here. Here’s my liver. Here, go here.

This is

nick: I need it to be

joe: Maybe he doesn’t need fixing. Maybe he can just generate, but I guess if you have a genetic issue like cancers, like what? What’s his Yeah.

nick: because Mm-hmm. I don’t

maria: think he needs anything fixed, to be honest.

nick: If you go into the cancer category, then you get Deadpool.

Who his body’s constantly killing himself, but he’s also regenerating [00:46:00]

joe: Yeah.

nick: It’s that war with himself.

joe: Now what if Reeds other dimensional reeds aren’t all superpowered?

Would,

Could he pass superpower.

Material back and forth through to dimensionality as he’s stretching and reforming and he’s pulling from his other counterparts,

maria: don’t pull from

the wrong

one. Is that what you’re saying?

joe: Don’t pull from

nick: then you can’t even choose. You

can’t pick and choose who you’re pulling from.

joe: Maybe can,

maria: I think he

has more control than you think. because he

doesn’t Maria, get cancer. That would be cells outta control. He’s in control of the cells.

And

joe: he’s regenerating ’em at that level, would he would,

nick: but

doing the interventional portals, that’s where you’re like,

maria: he says buddies on the other

side. he that.

Yes.

is the only pulling

joe: from dimensions that have super they’re already, they have the cosmic ray, so

maria: That’s his brilliance.

You guys that missed the

joe: pool of,

nick: I feel like

that, [00:47:00] I.

don’t know. Like it,

joe: Yeah, I think cancer is interesting because his, if he has this rapid regeneration also that means his cells have figured out ways to bypass the normal checks that cells have.

So with normal cells, they have like contact limitations. So once they your cells touch each other, they stop growing. But cancer cells, when they have certain mutations, they’ll grow over top of each other. They almost become immortal ’cause they’ll just keep growing into a big mass, uncontrolled mass.

That’s the idea there. So if he’s, now he’s taking advantage of that system to actually create rapidly new cells to stretch and manipulate his internal organs. Now, his external structure,

maria: but to control it enough so he doesn’t turn into a giant sarcoma.

joe: Yes.

nick: A What

maria: basically his

stretchiness over

want

I say

over produces itself.

and just

takes over.

yeah.[00:48:00]

oh it’s

A soft tissue tumor. Oh.

yeah. So if you don’t

have control of this process,

Not

overgrowing yourself,

You turn into an OMA

and in that situation. be sarcoma. so,

joe: yeah.

nick: Did not know

maria: either. Yeah. I

nick: I feel

like there was a lot of words that dropped. today

maria: know.

nick: wait, what is

that?

Yeah.

What

else you got for us there, Joe?

I see,

joe: I always got

nick: tapping away.

maria: Do you have questions?

joe: Questions? As a quiz?

maria: Yeah.

No, I mean.

Generated questions.

No, I, think we

went through a portal. we went through.

joe: Yeah. I just have I

maria: control of the Slushy. A slushy, is better than juicing

juice.

joe: You, and you don’t, do you slushy?

maria: slushy

joe: slush

up?

maria: Yeah. Because you have a catchphrase like slush up

better than

smoothie.

I dunno. than smoothie.

nick: It’s better than juice.

maria: [00:49:00] Better than juice.

joe: He’s juiced in there. I let’s go. I do have a little list of characters and we talked about Mr. Fantastic already. And everything that he does, plastic man

Yep. He was there and he like can twist himself and he he’s more cartoonish than Reed I think in the comics.

Like more, more humorous and what he does, we talked about last girl Helen Par and hers was more genetics had. Plastic man was a chemical accident, so he fell in and he became, his skin became elastic and his, almost like he got dipped in vinegar or something and

maria: Elastic

plastic, because I think of plastic, The opposite of elastic. Yeah.

Okay.

nick: Which he also goes from good to bad a lot.

joe: He does. Yeah. He’s you

nick: know where he’s at.

joe: Yeah. He’s kinda like a joker or where he has

nick: falls in the dead pool

joe: Yeah, maybe Deadpool. Yeah. I

maria: Can he do a flat Stanley?

Yes.

Oh, okay.

he’s everything

nick: like this This guy I feel like he’s [00:50:00] more all over the place than Reed is.

joe: Somebody didn’t, not

realize elongated man

and

he was a DC character also. He consumed gin gold extract. And that. Made ’em stretchy and as gin gold was based on ginkgo extract which ginkgo extracts a real thing. It won’t make you stretchy.

maria: It’s often used to support

cognitive function, memory, How do you know that show?

joe: to the brain.

maria: It just won’t make you stretchy.

it’ll, you’ll know

joe: you need to drink

maria: rabbit

joe: hole of research is, we’re know, take

nick: he’s trying to

save us from

people being Like,

drank this ’cause you,

mentioned it on the

show. I just

joe: a quart of ginkgo

maria: and nothing happened.

joe: thing that stretched was my inside got

juiced.

Someone I wasn’t, and maybe, are you familiar with one piece? Yes. And Luffy, is it Louy?

Luffy Monkey.

nick: I

read

them. I [00:51:00] don’t,

I will pronounce it However,

do in my head. but I’m not gonna say it.

out loud.

joe: Luffy.

maria: Luffy. Luffy.

Like Puffy.

joe: They have like rubber arms and can bounce and things like that.

Someone I

came up to T 1000 from Terminator two. Liquid metal.

nick: No, I

wouldn’t say. Is he

joe: they can stretch out and they can manipulate their liquid metal form. It’s not biological, but it is a stretchy material that he has functional control over.

maria: think you’re getting into the materials science

world. And we need

joe: maybe Reed maybe he’s liquid metal

maria: science.

joe: And he gets stretch a thousand still difficult. Then there was, when I was a kid, I remember. Stretch Armstrong.

And a stretchy latex

maria: I remember Gumby

joe: was here. Gumby

maria: not a superhero, but Gumby.

joe: But Gumby,

maria: that’s

joe: right.

nick: Don’t know. Gumby was

joe: He was a super, oh my god.

nick: I’m here to say?

[00:52:00] It?

maria: You liked pokey

nick: Yeah. He was mean to

maria: pokey

nick: all the time.

joe: there it is.

maria: Read. Richard’s not the NICE’s guy.

in the world either,

joe: Gumby

maria: that love, hate that internal war.

joe: Gumby never took pokey to space to examine cosmic race.

nick: Pokey

is a

creature

that has,

joe: He can’t

nick: speak for himself.

maria: Okay.

nick: Stand up for the little guy there, Joe.

saying,

joe: man, it was. We have it there, but yeah. Gumby, I haven’t thought about Gumby in a while. Do you know the Gumby theme song, Maria?

maria: I do not.

nick: I Am Gumby. I am Gumby. that’s it

joe: went. I don’t. And then the go historical 16th century and this has come up journey to the west.

It’s one of China’s four great classical novels. There’s a character s song, W Kong, the Monkey King, and he could

nick: Oh, I, for God,

joe: stretch, transform his body and [00:53:00] shrink and grow in size. So more size morphing powers than any elasticity, I think we’ve been using those a little

interchangeable.

nick: Miss

Marvel goes in big,

and then

she Makes herself giant.

joe: yeah,

nick: So, yeah, it’s

a possibility

to use it.

joe: Yeah.

And I thought I just, now, I don’t know why, just when you said that made me think of it. The pin particles and that

maria: was

joe: we and the inner

maria: dimensionality

joe: aspect of it with mass conversion.

And so it could be a similar thing. Maybe read, discovered pin

maria: Yeah, I think mass is off the table. We talked about

preserving mass before mass

is never

off table.

No. I meant in terms

of conserving mass.

joe: That’s your hand. Wavy re’s, just like mass is gone

maria: It

went into the portal, into the

internal portal.

nick: Joe opened that can, and you’re like, yes, portal. I

don’t have to explain.

anything.

joe: right.

nick: Put it in the I like it. [00:54:00] Like you explain it by explaining it

joe: and it’s just explained.

But yeah, no, I think we’ve covered, like we talked skin. The only other system I had was muscle, but I think if we can get skin and everything else, then you would just, you would do the same trick. Just grow a bunch of new muscle or pull it from, another

nick: So Would he be able to make himself as big as the Hulk?

joe: Yeah. Why not?

he,

does, he does that kind of, that’s if he’s, if you’re going to do it, then yeah, I think he could beef

nick: don’t see why he would need,

joe: I think there’s a different episode and maybe one on just mass conversion. ’cause I don’t know where the Hulk gets his mask for him, like when he bulks up.

So either he has cellular, the same sort of process that he can

maria: pin particles.

in reverse.

No,

nick: It’s actually a portal that just comes out of nowhere in his,

joe: it’s the ga Yeah.

maria: antman. Got really big ones. Really

big, ones.

joe: He had to have orange slices afterwards too. But yeah, no, so you have that, the muscle, but you’re right, you could see [00:55:00] Reed, I think, if you maintain strength a thousand feet away, then why can’t you just bring that back in this beef up?

Become, bigger than Hulk,

mass wise.

maria: I,

always think of ’em as stretchy.

though, and not Really bulky.

joe: Yeah. I think he doesn’t take advantage of it. He presents

nick: I mean he doesn’t

maria: he doesn’t Oh, he is holding, back.

He’s

joe: holding, he presents as like a skinny, lanky dude.

nick: I feel like he doesn’t need to be strength like he has been for that, for the most part.

And then,

joe: That’s just,

nick: he just works.

in self around things.

joe: right? Is that they got the strong guy

nick: Yeah. I mean if you don’t need to,

joe: he doesn’t need the flex.

nick: Yes, he doesn’t need a flex on Ben. He’s

joe: He’s just juicy.

nick: alright.

I need you

maria: yeah,

think what

we decided, this one

joe: very hand waving.

nick: I, think we proved it and we’re, we’ll talk about it in

maria: I don’t know. I mean, there’s a little hand W [00:56:00] portion to it. I think the human body can do strange things

And

bones

can get

Flexible and muscle. you,

still,

joe: you’ve avoided the how flexible are we talking before breakage?

maria: Inches There are or feet?

Oh,

Not

joe: Okay. So we’re already,

maria: but if you can do it a little

and you

get a cosmic

ray hit, then you can do it a

nick: See, this is why I like having her on.

maria: That’s the potential. because there’s precedent there. It’s just on a different

scale. race have you seen this happen?

joe: You have a

maria: what have you seen it on?

joe: i’s why

I want,

maria: anything hand

joe: I’m on team hand Wao, you’re on team. It could happen if we find some cosmic rays. Let’s do

maria: it.

Cosmic gray and a portal. we got both.

Get a

phone call from you Joe,

joe: guess what? Those cosmic rays?

maria: we got a trip. you wanna take it?

nick: Hey Joe, you wanna go

on a road trip

maria: at your base?

nick: To where?

Space. don’t worry.

joe: Yeah, I don’t know. You too. You’re really [00:57:00] leaning into these cosmic

maria: your brains.

joe: I,

don’t Woo. Yes. They’re insides will be juiced. We’ll see you.

maria: that in

Slushy. slushy Smoothie.

joe: Slushy Smoothie.

maria: Reed

joe: Mr. Fantastic. Mr. Pedro Pascal himself. That’s who’s playing. Mr. Fantastic. Are you excited about the movie, Maria?

maria: Now I’m gonna have to see it Yeah,

for sure.

There it’s, yeah. Yeah. I’m

growing excitement. Can’t you tell

Your excitement. I’m stretching.

my excitement container. Oh, I Can’t wait to hear the fanfic from this movie.

nick: Oh,

joe: all

maria: gonna Have to have a watch party.

or something. Yeah. have watch

joe: Alright.

I think that’s yeah, I think we can wrap this up. We wanna thank Maria,

nick: thank you so much for being here. My pleasure.

maria: My pleasure. I learned a lot.

some

nick: words that, I’ll never

maria: lot.

joe: words.

Yeah. You have me, Joe.

nick: You got Nick.

joe: got Nick. We’ve got Nick and [00:58:00] yeah, thanks for Go listen.

Fantastic Four, see the watch a movie. couple days, it’s coming out. So yeah, super excited and we’ll report on it in our mini, I think we already made a date to go. Awesome.

maria: you

gonna interview people again?

Okay.

joe: but

maria: No. That like strangers, what’d you think of the movie? What’d you

joe: Not at the movie. No, that’s, yeah.

Okay. yeah.

And

nick: we went down some stretchy holes.

joe: Y’all stay safe out there.

nick: Bye. Bye.

joe: Love you.

Transcript: Fantastic 4 series: Episode 39: Johnny Storm: Spontaneous Combustion

Click link to listen or search Rabbit Hole of Research where you find your other podcasts:

EP39: Johnny Storm and Spontaneous Combustion

We torch the handwavium behind Marvel’s hottest character—Johnny Storm, the Human Torch. Dr. David Pincus of the University of Chicago explores how biology might survive a “Flame On!”

Transcript:

joe: [00:00:00] Hey.

Welcome back to the Rabbit Hole of Research down here in the basement

nick: studio.

We are setting it a blaze

today. Joe

joe: a blaze today.

david: y’all.

nick: Did you

joe: know it’s coming. We are talking about the human torch. Johnny Storm.

nick: and

joe: our Fantastic four series.

nick: We’ve already talked about

geo: Woohoo ability.

joe: we’ve talked about the thing, and now we’re here talking about human spontaneous combustion

geo: fire.

joe: And here today, joining me, you got me, Joe. We’ve got

nick: Nick.

You got Nick,

joe: we’ve got Georgia.

geo: Hello. Hello.

joe: And we have a guest, a returning guest. I,

nick: I think this is our first, is this his first

Wait, has he been on before?

joe: first returning

geo: shut up.

nick: Yes. Yes. People might remember Dr. David

joe: We’ll let ’em introduce was up on, you might remember our episode on climate disaster

nick: and the permit turpentine

joe: farms.

That was

david: It was it was pretty good.

geo: [00:01:00] it was fun. It was a fun one. I think

joe: was

nick: was as fun as

joe: disaster can

nick: be.

joe: but

david: Always a barrel of

monkeys.

joe: Pincus, will

you wanna give

david: Yeah. I’m David Pincus, uh, assistant professor in molecular genetics at University of

Chicago. And Hopefully

any day now, any day now, I’ll be cashing them checks. Yeah, and I happen to be an expert on the heat shock response, which, , hopefully will come up at some point today.

nick: Wait, if I recall correctly on the last episode, you go, why am I on this episode again,

joe: yeah, yeah.

david: Well, this one was much clearer to me. Spontaneous combustion and I happen to study how cells cope with, , thermal stress. So it actually it’s not that even a simpleton like me could

make that, uh, too.

joe: surprised on this one. I was, I was

nick: like, I

joe: well, I will I

nick: drop the, the Anil. I get on you.

joe: Like, why am I here? Oh, that’s

nick: why.

Yeah.

david: Oh.

nick: we’ll put

a link to that episode

joe: the show notes. It

nick: Wasn’t fun

Nick Nick and I are always here and we don’t have, uh, our science degrees.

[00:02:00] never. I actually was gonna start. Piggybacking off Joe’s, you know, be like, yeah, I’m a scientist by association.

geo: we could get an Well, if they ever promote me, I’ll give you all honorary degrees as soon as they let

nick: I am all for it. I need an honorary degree or something.

joe: Honorary degree. All right.

david: or an honorarium,

nick: oh,

joe: that’s even better.

nick: take honorarium. Yep, definitely

better. Yeah.

Let’s jump into this. You guys know how I do it? I have a definition

Do you have a list today?

geo: I thought you had a description.

joe: I mean all the above, but we’re gonna go, a D words. Yeah. A

nick: , we, , covered

joe: Fantastic four Marvel’s first family 1961,

nick: Stanley Jack

joe: Kirby. And so this is Johnny Storm. He is Sue’s younger brother, , just so that he can generate flames, fly and surround himself with them.

And so I wanted to start with what is combustion,

nick: and that’s

joe: as the [00:03:00] moment when matter breaks. Its bonds when oxygen, heat, and fuel collide, rapid oxidation, molecular breakdown, and a violent release of stored energy. This energy erupts in a form of flames, it and light, but in storytelling, fires mourning chemistry.

It is a symbol of change, rebellion of passion and destruction. And no one in a superhero cannon embodies this better than Johnny Storm the human torch. He doesn’t wear a mask. He doesn’t hide. He explodes with a single shout flame on. He becomes pure fire, radiant, reckless, and often just barely in control.

But fire is never just fire. It is the heat of adolescence, the illusion of ego, and the threat of catastrophe. It’s Johnny’s gift and his curse, a transformation that makes him powerful, but also volatile

geo: very nice.

joe: Thank you.

david: In short,

he’s hot.

nick: I’m shocked. Yes.

geo: Wait, okay.

nick: I wanna say in all senses of the

word, say,

joe: will say, oh, go ahead.

geo: Which character does Pedro Mascal

nick: Pascal, Mr. Fantastic.

joe: We’ve

nick: Which [00:04:00] we haven’t gotten to yet.

Because I was gonna say,

this would be spoiler alert,

joe: Next

geo: because he, because

nick: he’s hot,

geo: so maybe

david: That is a great character. Uh, I’m not gonna lie.

Yeah. I will, say out of probably all the shows that we’ve done and all the, you know, hypotheticals that I, I think this character is probably, I.

joe: The most hand. WII Yeah. This is a tough one. I mean, come on.

geo: come on. So spontaneous combustion.

nick: people do this all the time. All the

time. Yeah. Yeah.

There

has been

mysteries. inquire?

I I have not

no. Did you hear about that story where the guy burned alive in his chair with nothing else around him on fire? Come on. It’s usually

geo: everything like the torso and everything, but the hands and the feet don’t move.

joe: he walk away?

nick: No, he died. Okay. Well that’s, that’s part of the spontaneous

complexion, let’s say

geo: a.

pile of ashes.

nick: Okay,

Let’s say he was a charred skeleton,

joe: combustion work. [00:05:00] He,

nick: Johnny keeps living, right? I mean, so

got

a explain,

so we got a bunch of hand wavy of stuff

going on here. So a we have, and it’s a rundown his powers that did a little bit, but he can spontaneously combust, set himself ablaze, alright?

joe: That’s, and then he lives he turns it off just as fast

geo: he is not burnt or anything. He’s not

joe: or

david: no, no scar

tissue. scarring. He can fly.

nick: the fire, by the fire, by fire

to fire, which, we, we’ll

get back.

It might

geo: like

nick: propels him. Propels

david: feel like once you can,

you

nick: Once you go, and then

he can project the fire

joe: out.

You Yeah, yeah.

geo: thrower.

joe: thrower. like a flame thrower.

Exactly.

nick: this all seems addict. Insane. yeah, so that’s,

um, and you know, so

joe: so

geo: the plausibility is pretty much 0%?

nick: I’m,

joe: I’m gonna go. Yes, we’re

nick: gonna try.

joe: That’s, that’s the

nick: goal.

joe: We will,

david: Let’s just condition it like what’s the probability even of at will Spontaneous combustion,

joe: No

david: right? Like, let’s set the bar

low. heard of of spontaneous [00:06:00] combustion, but I never thought it was at will.

I suppose

nick: I, I think

david: that’s true. So maybe he’s adding energy. Maybe that’s the thing. The will adds the energy so it’s not spontaneous.

nick: Oh,

geo: So

I mean, you have to think about it, then

nick: he

joe: would be creating a whole new, set of organs probably to be able, in neurological

david: Or

joe: to project heat out, you know, we think about , a firefly or , with luciferase,

david: Sure. so some specialized chemical reaction.

nick: you can think

joe: of a lot of different oxidizers

david: stuff you put in your pockets in the cold, where you mix it

together and then your hands are warm.

nick: Mm yes.

About hot hands.

So, and you have to Hot hands. because,

david: the hot hands in the dice game.

nick: and you have to.

Yeah. and you have to generate

joe: because of oxygen, right.

There. There’s not enough oxygen in our atmosphere. It’s about 21% that you would be able to have spontaneous flame in this way. So you probably [00:07:00] would have to have some oxidant. We could think of a couple, maybe hydrogen peroxide, maybe a, a nitrous kind of compound, you know,

david: Or a heavy metal, maybe like arsenic

might work.

nick: I was thinking of

something that would kill us.

geo: are you

nick: Are you

joe: and that we

david: Yeah,

nick: because we, are you that he’d have to put that on his skin and then like, or

joe: it in some way?

nick: That’s, that,

the plausibility

of that he would have, he would have to develop some new kind of

gland .

, so it’s like a sweat glands,

Like a, like sweat

joe: Yes.

david: Except

with flames.

nick: Except that they would converse.

joe: Right, right. And they will converse

geo: They’d have

david: Would you imagine like there’s jets, like pores where the flames are coming out. , or

Like a grill,

nick: you

joe: kind of like

david: Like a propane

grill.

joe: Like a propane grill with

geo: a, but okay.

nick: A loose hose

geo: So

nick: David’s house,

in the comic, you’re testing the grill turns

into an

experiment.

david: Meat is the bal

geo: let’s not test that. Literally. Okay.

nick: Okay.

geo: [00:08:00] Now

in the comic book

He doesn’t have like pores or anything. Well, with your skin,

nick: I he doesn’t have like vis visible,

joe: cover that.

nick: I mean they just cover him in fire at all.

geo: at all?

joe: Not that I know of, no.

nick: You know, we have to,

You have ‘

david: cause what is, what is combusting, right? Like you need fuel, here.

joe: you need, you need heat and you need, you need an oxid

david: Yeah. And So the skin is presumably not the fuel

nick: But he can,, collect the heat energies

geo: from others.

nick: Yeah. So, uh, in an issue I’ve read, yeah, he, ended up heating up

david: Ah,

nick: lake.

To destroy a certain bacteria and then was able to go back in and absorb it

david: wow. Now that

nick: So he didn’t

david: that is the.

nick: all the, they took the fish out first.

joe: How’d they take the fish? Nevermind.

geo: Oh, okay. That, that

joe: yeah. Now we’re,

geo: that

nick: that all, so Reid was gathering them with his hands and then he was gathering invisible women, woman was, we

haven’t talked about Mr. [00:09:00] Fantastic yet. ‘

joe: cause that’s pretty

nick: fantastic. But

joe: let’s

nick: honestly, what he was making neck with his fingers, you know, just,

I can picture it.

geo: I can picture it.

nick: Just a couple things,

joe: just to set the baseline I think, David, you were headed this way a little bit,

nick: is that,

At,

joe: something around 41 c, 105 degrees Fahrenheit, you begin to get protein,

denaturation cellular lipid bilayer degradation. So the, the cellular bilayer, that’s what holds the stuff inside your cells. Inside of cells.

david: I mean even long before that, so that’s a, that’s even, you know, we’re at 37

degrees,

Yeah.

joe: Right,

david: even when we have a fever, right? If we get a bad fever of above like 103, 104, the reason you’re going to the hospital there is ’cause you’re actually not able, your proteins are starting to denature

and as the proteins go, so goes the function of, of the cell and cognition and all that stuff we like

so.

nick: what happens

joe: to proteins at high heat, just imagine an egg, right?

I mean, that’s mostly protein that you’re frying up [00:10:00] and it coagulates into it like that.

nick: Is this like one of those drug TSAs, like Right.

david: This is your brain.

nick: you’re

geo: You’re,

david: is your brain on

heat.

geo: all I, all I

nick: a superhero?

geo: All I know is that , when I lived in Phoenix, sometimes you could fry an egg on the sidewalk.

joe: You

david: On the cement. Yeah. , on the asphalt, right?

Yeah.

geo: yeah. It’s hot.

joe: So there and

david: you know, tardigrade though, these, uh, there, there are certain extremophiles, how many times do tardigrade come up? Pretty much every episode.

joe: Not as many as you think, but it’s come up.

nick: Yeah.

david: things, , they actually evolved proteins that don’t even have a shape so that, , they can survive.

It’s really primarily for desiccation, but you can take these things up to 120 degrees. Hotter than anything else on the planet. And , they’re still kicking.

So, and

yeah.

it is evolutionarily possible

To recode [00:11:00] the proteome of certain cells to make them extremely thermo tolerant, heat resistant.

But a flame is really frigging hot, like Fahrenheit 4 51. Right. If it burns a book, it’s gonna burn

your skin.

joe: I, I think then, you know, with the glands that it may have a couple of functions. One may be to provide the oxidant for the

david: Ah,

the prop, the propellant.

Yeah.

joe: layer

of protective jelly or something

nick: Well, it’s also in his mouth too,

joe: you. It’s in his mouth.

nick: Yes,

geo: Have you

nick: So, uh, I

geo: anything?

nick: in one of the,

david: Of course,

geo: Come on, Nick.

nick: Well, in one of the cartoons, , he ended

up,

joe: you watching?

nick: That was watching all the Fantastic four ended up switching powers where he ended up getting invisibility and he, right.

Yeah, that was Yes,

joe: yes. That was the animated one. Right? Okay. Yep.

nick: So he, what? Heated up a slice of pizza and he took it outta the [00:12:00] microwave and he goes, oh, the pizza bit me. And I’m like, wait, what? You would have

to, and he’s like, oh, that’s ’cause it’s hot.

Yeah, This, this,

uh oh. ’cause

geo: oh,

joe: because

nick: protective,

whatever.

It’s protecting him from all heat it, it might be

that

his pain

joe: receptors are different,

geo: but you know, that

joe: be the

nick: other, ‘

joe: cause

david: ah.

nick: so you might have a

joe: whole neurological kind of change when you do this.

So, so you have to. Affect that also, that you might perceive pain very differently than you would a normal person.

geo: But do you remember the time that we were at the museum and then the stump people were there?

nick: The what?

geo: then they, the stunt people that

nick: oh,

stunned. I heard Stu.

joe: like

nick: like,

geo: stubby

david: stu

people,

joe: stu people were here,

nick: Georgia, please. You’re gonna get us canceled again.

geo: No, the stunt

nick: people,

geo: and they set themselves on fire. Like they put the stuff on , and then they set themselves on,

nick: they have

a lot of protective gear,

joe: like they’re not bare skin. So that’s why I

nick: think that,

geo: that guy in that show we [00:13:00] watch was bare

david: So you would have to regenerate this though, right? Because,

joe: right. Yes. I,

nick: I agree.

david: so there would,

joe: Yep. Some

david: there would be some refractory period, or at least some limit, right? On the.

geo: the,

nick: on

david: On the amount you could withstand if it were some type of protective layer,

nick: Yes.

Or you would,

joe: you would have some.

nick: Rapid

david: unless it’s other hand waving like atium or something like that.

joe: We we’re trying not to do

nick: we already in hand wa we’re trying

joe: take it

nick: away.

geo: Well, there was the, that guy that, oh, what’s his name? David. David Blaine.

joe: David Blaine,

geo: And we watched that show recently. And he sent himself on fire and dived into the remember, right?

joe: Yes.

geo: And there

nick: he he coated himself with like,

geo: some, but it

nick: was material jelly. That would

geo: skin, wasn’t it?

nick: it? Isn’t that like what you do with the spray? What’s that? Like axe body spray and people used to set it on fire.

yeah. Like

david: trying to get some in New Jersey?

joe: flame thrower.

It’s just

nick: is like

some

homemade flame throwers. Yeah.

geo: Yeah.

joe: movie when

nick: they’re [00:14:00] like, they got, they’re reaching on the counter. and They got the lighter

joe: a, you know, a can of aerosol.

geo: Yeah, but see that’s the opposite of protecting you. That’s makes it

nick: supposed to protect it? That’s

geo: like glider fluid. That’s right.

joe: Don’t put lighter fluid on yourself.

nick: are you sure

that’s not,

let’s not try. But gets to

geo: not

nick: that do not play with fire, period.

Unless you really want to No,

joe: no, please

geo: no.

nick: out here in in the

david: no kids. No. No kids.

geo: But

joe: a a couple things touched on, I mean you touched on , the tardigrades, but there are also the Archie that live in thermo vents and so they also have specialized, uh, kind of

geo: think of them.

nick: of them.

david: Extremophiles.

nick: clue what that is.

And

I think that David’s point,

geo: And what are those? Can you tell us what those are

nick: with a definition, please?

david: Thermi Aquatics is the most famous one, right? So. The reason we’re able to sequence the human genome or do any of the things that we do in modern molecular biology, amplifying [00:15:00] genes,, all this diagnosis for genetic disorders. It all comes from the, this extremophile called thermos aquatics, which is an organism that lives in one of these heat vents.

And people realize that it had to be able to replicate its DNA at an extremely high temperature so it can grow it, almost boiling water and still divide. And so it has these proteins in it that have evolved to be rock solid, so they won’t even denature under, boiling conditions practically.

So The cloning of this genome, what I mean by cloning is once people figured out what the sequence of the, of what’s called the DNA polymerase, it’s the enzyme in the cells that copies. Double helix and makes , the copy for the daughter they cloned that gene, found the sequence of that, and then you can put it in a batch of another organism like e coli and then produce a bunch of it, a bucket load of this enzyme and [00:16:00] then, , you can descend it to all your friends all over the world.

And now they can take their DNA and put it in a really high temperature and put it through a series of temperatures to allow this copying mechanism to occur. And so really the genomic revolution depends on an extremophile that was able to evolve to withstand a high temperature. Now

joe: It’s

david: still we’re solving a problem that’s not, uh, exactly getting us

there, But,

uh, it is quite

awesome.

Right?

joe: it’s a, it’s what’s called a pro

nick: is

geo: that like a single cell?

joe: it’s a single cell,

david: single cell Yeah.

nick: They are

joe: where you carry out, its, that means an a procars. We have a nucleus that contains our DNA. We have organelles like the mitochondria that provides power for our cell. A TP energy. A pro cario doesn’t have those specialized structures. , they are probably the simplest life forms.

geo: I

nick: argue, we throw viruses

in there, but

but

geo: I think, I think that name, that, that’s like a superhero [00:17:00] name. Can you,

could be, can you say that again?

david: tack. Yeah.

geo: No. What was it, ex the, what are they

david: Extremo file

geo: doesn’t that sound like that should be something that’s, so

nick: something, There, there are many,

david: Extreme.

geo: there are

joe: there

nick: are superhero, no,

joe: and there are many extremophiles there. There’s organs.

geo: organisms, so

nick: of

us kicking out on ex extreme ex files.

geo: Not, not all of them can get really hot. Just some

david: yeah. So This

one’s a specific, a

thermo file. Yeah.

joe: at thermal

vents in the ocean.

geo: You know what, when you’re

nick: you, when you’re talking about thermo

geo: I’m picturing like some vent in like a house there inside. I dunno.

nick: And, and then like

david: Turn the air conditioner off.

geo: and then some scientist is just looking in their vent. Oh,

nick: thermo file in there.

joe: Yes, yes.

nick: Get it out these thermophiles that,

joe: Gotta go down there GitHub. So,

geo: sorry.

joe: No,

nick: no, that’s

joe: [00:18:00] I

david: it’s the thermophiles versus the germaphobe.

geo: pho,

nick: I mean he are,

joe: and that’s, uh, the thermo files. They’re just, um, these kind of geothermally heated kind of vents that are on the ocean, sea floor and where kind of tectonic plates would be.

So you’re releasing a lot of heat and gas there. So it’s pretty, pretty hot. It’s pretty

nick: extreme. Just extreme. That’s

geo: and

david: like only Mountain Dew down there.

nick: The fact

geo: there’s scientists, that that’s what they study. I mean, do they have to be in the ocean? Like I, I don’t know.

I’m just, it seems so

david: so the scientists that discovered this, right, never, you know, they got funding for this back in, I think the seventies or something, and this guy just went to go and dig cores and then catalog what was in there and, , put it away for later. And then somebody, and then these guys, , 30 years later when they started making these little pieces of DNA were like, , it would be cool the allegedly took LSD [00:19:00] and had this vision of

nick: This is my kind of science driving down,

joe: , in California. Like some

david: Highway one, right? Or, or, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

geo: to

nick: he pulled over tripping. And

he saw it in the,

david: He saw,

geo: Oh my God. Saw

nick: the

david: Yeah.

This is, at least this is the apocryphal story, I think. I don’t know if it’s real, but

geo: I, I

david: so, so it, so it said.

joe: learned the same story and it’s been passed

david: Yeah, exactly.

nick: So it’s like, that’s like lore,

geo: it’s science scientist lore.

david: this guy won a Nobel Prize.

His name’s Kerry Moles.

Yeah,

geo: crazy. That’s interesting.

nick: So

you’re saying we should be doing more LSD, is that

david: Basically that’s the moral of the story.

nick: I

geo: No. You

joe: you remember, do you remember the magazine

geo: Bio Kids don’t do

david: Yeah, of course. I know Bio techniques.

nick: somewhere I have

joe: one

nick: the

joe: the early. Issues him talking about PCR polymerase chain

david: Oh yeah. This thing’s called the

polymerase PCR. Yeah.

joe: That, and that you can take just a few fragments of

DNA and

or [00:20:00] RNA the instructions for life

nick: and

joe: then you can replicate it and then you can make many more copies, in a tube in a matter of, , hours.

And so

david: You may remember , in COVID, the gold standard test was the PCR

test, You could have a antigen test or a PCR test anyway. All the same

stuff.

joe: there? Yep. And that’s where it comes from. Someone doing LSD on the drive home.

nick: and this is,

geo: And

nick: it

hit too

david: there’s a main line from LSD to

COVID is now what we’re

saying.

nick: now

we’re making it a line. If you do LSD,

joe: can flame on probably. So We’ll,

nick: what’s wrong?

joe: the

nick: So on it come

david: As long as that LSD is fire.

joe: right. Flavor. on. Don’t try at all.

david: Another thing we should not do.

geo: So thir, you said they, they discovered

joe: these

geo: extreme files.

joe: extremophiles,

david: Extreme.

geo: can’t even say it. Yeah,

they found that and then it was 30 years later when he is like,

david: Yeah,

yeah,

geo: moment.[00:21:00]

david: totally. , it was one scientist doing the sort of. Scavenging for the future, not knowing necessarily what they were gonna find, but cataloging it. Well, doing the naturalism and just, , getting a small grant and going out on a expedition thinking that there would be some type of interesting biology down in these very, extreme conditions.

And lo and behold,

geo: In these holes

nick: holes

david: down

joe: hot

geo: holes.

david: it’s hot.

joe: that, that just

geo: that just goes to show, so does that original scientist that was doing more basic research. Did he get involved in an, in any kind

david: You know, he never got the Nobel Prize as far as I

know. Um,

nick: because

david: but I do believe, yeah, he didn’t even get to do LSD

joe: Nothing.

david: you know, I don’t

know. I don’t know this

man’s life.

geo: he might

david: I don’t know that

this man’s life.

geo: document it. Okay. So

david: And I also don’t remember his name and I do remember Carrie

Mo’s name. [00:22:00] So,

anyway. Yep.

geo: this

nick: a question,

LSD

joe: story, that’s

geo: this is kind of going,

nick: Yeah. Young scientist

joe: that.

Like, you just go off and, you know, I don’t know, you’ll just

nick: up all

geo: have an epiphany.

nick: You

joe: some napkins with some great equation written on

it. How’d that,

this here? Do we need to do this? Is this a rabbit hole of research science experiment? No.

david: uh, I some field work.

nick: yeah, that’s

joe: right.

But

geo: I, I have a question, so, yeah, go for it. Does, do people like scientists doing really, really basic research ever win Nobel prizes? Or is it usually something more advanced? Do you know what I mean?

joe: think

david: Well,

joe: Nobel Prize winners were doing basic research. I, I don’t I, I don’t think any, I can’t think of, I

nick: may, there may be somebody,

david: but

there’s always other basic researchers that should also get the Nobel Prize that are not included. ’cause they can only ever give it to three people. And any given thing, , involves, thousands.

right. [00:23:00]

Who knows,

nick: Okay. And who has their hands on it the most? Their labs.

Like they’re

joe: the labs they were in, they generated grad students, postdocs,

Technicians had worked with

geo: Right.

nick: Right. And so usually there’s a, there’s a web of kind of researchers who work and then those are the three that might win the prize.

joe: But then you had many collaborators, colleagues who, you know, they also participated in it. I think

nick: it’s like the Oscars,

it’s

joe: to Oscar with the, with the Nobel

geo: It’s like so many things, right? I think the big thing

joe: with the Nobel Prize is that it really shines a spotlight on particular areas of science and then amplifies that message.

And you gotta, to do that, you gotta highlight a couple people and go, oh, these are the people that really helped push this, , technology. So cryo

nick: EM

joe: 2017 at Nobel Prize was awarded and then everyone jumped in and had to build out their EM facility, you know, so it was this

whole kind of push and it really was because of the Nobel Prize.

And then people said, aha, this is really important. So. I think you

geo: get, it gives that validation, but. [00:24:00] I think that that’s why sometimes it’s much harder to, to convince people about basic research. Yes. You know what I mean? Like why are you

david: but there was

geo: time doing that?

david: There was a Nobel Prize for the temperature sensing receptors that, you know, speaking of heat and cold.

David Julius won the Nobel Prize a couple years ago for how, , how we detect vibrations that, , in our skin that actually, , tell us what temperature it is

geo: and

david: and how the capsaicin, the hot, , the ingredient in in chili peppers, it activates exactly the same receptors that actually detect heat, so you feel hot because it’s the , same signaling.

So I always thought that was quite cool.

Yeah.

joe: if Johnny can eat really hot peppers. Like what is the, because we talked about pain,

nick: I feel like he, could he just go

joe: and he just,

david: can you go ghost pepper?

nick: Well, I mean considering like

joe: Tennessee Reaper?

And, and just go

david: Chomp. Yeah. Ah,

joe: yeah. So I, I [00:25:00]

david: oh yeah. Good question.

nick: it. Like he’s like, no, this is fine. This is fine.

geo: He’s not gonna admit

nick: Yeah. You can’t say that.

Like he’s

joe: have to suck it up,

nick: he like, he’s a

joe: pizza. I’m just wondering, ’cause the pain receptors are what’s, what is the true nature of the pain?

Is it directly related to heat and it’s many versions of heat because one is, . Do you know, is the capsaicin heat receptors similar to other pain receptors or are there different pathway?

david: the, the trip family of, uh, so yeah, it’s a part of a giant family of, , what’s called ligand gated ion channels. So, they’re different things that respond to various things in the environment and allow neurons to turn on and off direct leave by sensing the environment. So, pain receptors have, some of them are in this class.

Yeah, I do believe that’s true. Yeah.

geo: Yeah.

joe: All right.

nick: So, yeah,

joe: so maybe we can get flames on, so , we

nick: flame on,

we can

joe: generate [00:26:00] some sort of oxidant, maybe hydrogen peroxide or something like that.

Our bodies already make that, so not a huge leap.

nick: Maybe to get there,

joe: you have some sort of glands so you can ooze

nick: it

out.

geo: And also the fat, the fat in your body would work as like a candle.

joe: The, the fat in your body

david: You think, that’s what’s actually being burned?

joe: But his internal organs stay intact.

geo: Doesn’t, I was

nick: say, he doesn’t melt from the inside. usually that’s

geo: that’s not a good thing.

joe: you don’t wanna, yeah. Yeah. But

no,

nick: uh, you’re right. Lipids,

joe: you know, and fats do burn. I mean, that’s, we, um, if

nick: calories would he have to have?

joe: well, we’re gonna get some calories potentially.

nick: But I was gonna touch

david: Yeah, that’s a

good

question.

joe: if you do any staining or any, , cleaning linseed oil, things like that, and you, if you read the can you’re supposed to take your rag , and lay ’em out to dry.

Because if you take it and you boil ball it up, , the lipids in there, in the oils will start to oxidize. And you have, then you have a fuel.

geo: a [00:27:00] spontaneous combust,

joe: fuel and it will spontaneous combust if you do that.

david: Oh no.

geo: I

nick: and in grad school we had a

joe: a professor of mine, he wanted to demonstrate this.

We were talking about these processes. So he took, a rag, dipped it in, linseed oil

nick: or

joe: tung

oil, one of the, one of the oils.

nick: And, uh, ball balled it up

joe: threw it in a beaker and left it on a table. Did the lectures, like hour long lecture, nothing happens. Really? Oh man, I was anti-climax.

nick: all leave Next day he

joe: in and the beaker, it’s like just ash.

I guess

sat it

nick: the hood,

joe: safely. That was the best place. Probably. He sat up on a bench or somewhere, put it in the

geo: hood, but still

nick: Still balled up and stuffed in there. he was disappointed. It didn’t flame

on.

And so at

joe: time during the night, his postdoc called him and was like, there’s a beaker in the hood on

nick: fire.

joe: Should I put it out?

is like, yes, put

it out. What you doing?

No, let it burn.

yeah, then he brings a beaker the

next day and he

tells a story and it was like, oh.

nick: And so, yeah, that, that’s a [00:28:00] safety warning out there for anyone

joe: using any, do not just ball a rags up and throw ’em in the, in the corner of your garage.

nick: But I love doing that.

They will fy here

joe: or

nick: throw it into the, dumpster and,

joe: and see what happens.

But

nick: yeah,

geo: that’s dumpster fine. Essentially

joe: you can,

there are

mechanisms love us biologicals

to spontaneously combust. I think the issue here is that it’s on command. And it’s fast. It’s

geo: not, and it doesn’t hurt him.

nick: time? Like right. And it doesn’t. That’s the third thing. But that’s, that’s probably the

geo: most important thing.

joe: That’s,

nick: I

think it’s fairly important if you’re gonna set yourself ablaze in, in some way. So that,

or I mean, for it to not hurt.

other

thing is maybe you have very fast skin regeneration. I mean, he is already himself on fire. So that’s some ability. He got these abilities ’cause he was bombarded with cosmic ray.

joe: Um, so it activated all sorts of genes and things like that. And, , we talked about

nick: this genetics,

joe: you know, your genome. And your phenotype. And I was just wanna say

nick: that

often

you don’t, you know, so he could have already [00:29:00] had

joe: advanced

skin

regeneration, let’s say.

david: S And so here’s the, here’s the thing. I was thinking about what kind of mutations that could help, right? So I know for a fact that you could increase the heat shock response and increase the ability of the proteins in the cell to stay folded with just a few mutations. But then, yeah, the regeneration too.

You would have to ga basically have a localized cancer stem cell population that just regenerates, but , never escapes the niche. You know what I mean? It’s kind of it. Those were the two, mutational ideas that I had. Yeah.

Anyway.

joe: that’s and I was saying that if you have,

know,

at, at some level, if you are never tested. Then you’re unaware that you have some new phenotypic ability,

geo: but then you happen to, so, so maybe, but then you happen to get,

nick: right.

He got this power

joe: then that was the thing that, right, it was kind of

the[00:30:00]

fusing to

Wolverine skeleton. It was because he had healing factor that allowed him to have Adam Addium fuse to a skeleton successfully. And so you had that, so if

nick: you didn’t know you had that power, you could

joe: just accidentally get tested on and then wake up with this power and you, you lived and no one else.

Because that, that was a question. And a couple episodes ago it was like, how come no one’s done tests to find a genetic, , pathway to recreate.

A human torch or a

geo: is that the question that we had asked?

david: mean, these

days we would use PCR.

And Oh, I thought you were gonna say LSD. No,

geo: that’s only if you’re Same, same, only if you’re a scientist.

joe: if

nick: If a you know, the, road trip, that’s right. If you’re on it, you’re not No,

you’re not.

joe: No. A PhD scientist. We’re gonna set some

nick: bad.

joe: here.

david: yeah, that Venn diagram is a circle.

nick: David. You got me right. We’re good, right? I I I can do this, right. No, I, for science,[00:31:00]

Georgia was asking,

because

joe: we had, , Jonathan Mayberry on and at towards the end of the episode, he had asked about how

nick: does

joe: Johnny stop from dehydrating?

geo: Oh, that, that was a, yeah. Thought that

joe: was a good question because you are. When you’re on fire you are, removing,

geo: the

david: this is where the tar grade proteins might come in. Right. You know, they’re also desiccation tolerant, so it’s gotta be some combination of, Antifreeze type proteins that you develop. I don’t know, it

seems,

joe: know, I had, I had another idea, I don’t know, if you might think this one, but I was thinking about face separation and biomolecular connaissance. I don’t conc

david: Ooh, yeah.

nick: Oh yeah. Oh yeah, me too.

Yeah.

joe: experience on that, but, uh,

david: Yeah. That’s, that, that, that’s a that’s another thing I do.

nick: Yeah. So, and just

to and

can you give

geo: us a little bit of a, so I was

nick: so I was just gonna say that

joe: that these condensates form when proteins and or RNA [00:32:00] undergo liquid, liquid phase separation, and so they reorganized themselves from this kind of liquid phase into a more dense membrane free droplet inside the cell.

Presumably giving it some heat protection or protection against other stresses, heat shock, oxidative nutrient, de deprivation, DNA

david: Absolutely. Yeah. All the,

nick: of.

joe: Yeah.

david: yeah, the,

if, if you can sort of

add,

that’s great. Yeah.

That’s fantastic. And

I, I,

nick: on

joe: so that’s why I,

geo: I just heard

joe: give a, a lecture

nick: on

this,

joe: so

nick: that’s why.

david: That was incredible. But yeah, it’s basically because the cells made of stuff and this stuff is all gooey.

joe: gooey

david: when you change, when you change the. Anything, the temperature, the goo mixes in different ways, right?

And will reorganize, it’s like a lava lamp in there, basically. And , as the lava lamp stays on longer, it gets hotter and you see the more mixing, right? So it’s the same type of idea that, , the [00:33:00] interior of the cell, it’s been a billion years that this thing’s been evolving. As the temperature goes up and down and up and down and over the seasons and over the latitudes, you just have a huge range.

And then the extre of files, right? We all have

In our genes the memory of all of this fluctuation. And so that has made us super tough. And so you can imagine somewhere out there, there’s some suite of genetic mutations that could confer an incredible amount. Tolerance. Now, it’s hard to imagine that being in a

joe: a

david: big ass person, like a human, like an animal, like I can see it in a cell, or, or a small

animal, I don’t know.

joe: effect, right?

So we

nick: could

geo: not a Johnny.

joe: so you could have these, uh, connaissance that lock. Like kind of vulnerable enzymes and proteins into some sort of protective

geo: you know, what bubble,

joe: that, um, it kind of

david: and [00:34:00] casing. Yeah.

joe: And then he’s just kind of,

nick: so almost a, that’s why I

joe: you would have to start at the layers of the skin and to protect everything in.

So you might not have to have this across every cell type in your body.

david: I see what you’re saying.

joe: limited to, uh, maybe even some specialized new It’s almost like a plasma TV screen. You know that’s a liquid crystal display.

david: actually. that’s, that’s

the right. metaphor.

nick: go. So what we’re saying is we’re moving out of the realm of handwaving. Right. Like, we’re gonna make

david: Yeah. You know,

this is, I’m, I’m, I’m coming a little bit round to the idea that this is a little

more,

nick: making

geo: this like

nick: And so you could have percent plausible

Yeah. I mean this goes

to like the

joe: episode. We

nick: ended there

joe: leading into this, because that was where I started and started thinking about that, is that you would, now, if you say well take all the other organs out and body, how do you protect everything inside just on the outside?

And that would be, so now you can have specialized glands with your oxidase or [00:35:00] peroxidase in there and some specialized organ generating the, the, that

there. And

you have

david: Little

reaction trap, the heat, so it

right. Yeah. I think

joe: you

nick: can even form that

joe: as condensates until it’s needed.

Right? So that’s that rapid on and off. So you could actually go turn on, ’cause peroxidase will form these nice crystalline structures inside of cells. And so you could turn on and then you ooze out and you then you

david: You know

what? You could, you could, if you had a little,

little mitochondria, ooze out, flame on.

geo: right?

david: If you recruit mitochondria over there Right. You could uncouple the mitochondria and generate localized heat.

joe: That’s right. Right.

geo: This

is what

david: Yeah. to

get the spark with the, the mitochondria uncouple or could be

nick: the spark.

Yes. That’s where

joe: I was. Yeah, you could do that.

geo: This is what happens when you get a couple scientists

nick: together.

david: the spark, man. This is,

this could, This could be This has legs.

joe: All

nick: right so

maybe we can

set ourselves on fire

joe: and not, [00:36:00] not die.

nick: So would it be safe to say that he doesn’t get sick then, or No?

joe: I think he’s still gonna get

nick: because I mean, if you’re raising the body temperature at the same

david: You’re

basically autoclaving yourself.

nick: yeah, you, you may. right. We

david: there could be some downsides to microbiome, right?

joe: so we just said that we were leaving all internal organs alone, so we were gonna try to maintain physiological temperature nor, uh, normal

nick: physiological

temperature.

But your body has to raise temp either way. No.

joe: Maybe just on the outside,

nick: which is still the inside.

joe: Hold on. What?

geo: No, but

nick: I mean, if you’re ha

david: I mean on LSD.

nick: a,

joe: you’re gonna have a, you, so

nick: you would have multi

Yeah.

but like, you

do get, you do get

fevers, right? So hold on. I’m saying that for the flame

on we’re going to,

joe: we’re gonna now have.

Several specialized layer new layers of skin, one a jelly layer

nick: to kind of

joe: insulate us, the jelly

david: Yes. Yes. Yes,

joe: gonna have then the,

you’re gonna have the [00:37:00] oozing layer that, that generates. And then you’re gonna have

nick: may, maybe, actually no,

joe: that back. You wanna have the, the jelly layer.

nick: and then

you would

joe: have some sort of other skin layer that might be a little more thermal resistant, can have this kind of, the kind sits on and off. And

nick: then I

joe: you would have your ooze layer

nick: and you would have

joe: kind of on top there. And now you would have, you

would have the ooze come through

but also in his mouth as well, is what we

david: You had, you had.

nick: You just said

only thing about

joe: the mouth was that the pain receptors were different. You didn’t say fire shoots out the mouth. No.

nick: No,

but

joe: means that his pain we said also that this pain receptors might also be modified so that he doesn’t really feel the pain.

nick: His temperature would go up. So it if it’s all around your mouth, you’re still having that pain receptors in there.

You’re not getting burnt every time you talk.

joe: Yeah. I mean, yes.

nick: And he talks all the time. I think the

joe: issue you’ve brought up and andour than the mouth is the eyeballs. I don’t,

david: Oh,

joe: know, I, I have, I

nick: don’t, he has some gooey [00:38:00] balls.

geo: he has go eyes.

david: Just always like gga.

nick: he probably has really dry eyes,

right? Yes.

joe: yes. See you.

geo: so

nick: They’re not gooey. I didn’t, I didn’t. Or

joe: Or, or you have some sort of like a membrane that forms already eyes

david: yeah.

joe: So there you go. Okay.

david: A heat re a heat shield.

nick: And you

might have

joe: membranes in your nose and your, your mouth. You might have specialized, like, you know,

david: Lids.

joe: Lids, yes.

nick: Cats.

joe: breathe, uh, uh, alternate breathing apparatus. So that

david: Yep. Yep. ABAs.

nick: yes,

geo: this sounds so plausible. Breathing’s

nick: gonna

joe: be difficult also. So, I mean, I wonder if he can hold his breath for a long time. How long can he flame on? Like, it’s like indefinitely, right? Yeah.

david: he can also fly, right?

So,

nick: is,

joe: flying is its own thing.

nick: What? He’s projecting it

david: but you could propel, yeah, you can propel

right?

geo: like Iron Man. Yeah.

nick: so I think,

joe: I think that before we go to flying, we should talk about projecting the flame, because that’s what you need to do. You [00:39:00] gotta do that before you can fly

geo: like a flame

david: I see.

nick: which he can project. An identical version of himself.

joe: Oh man, come

nick: He can’t,

geo: No, I’m done. That’s, I’m gonna

nick: throw

that

joe: in hand away.

nick: He calls ’em fmo, rip that magazine out,

joe: that comic up.

nick: He would bring it out.

Yes.

So I mean, yeah.

joe: you would have to, the projection system here is, is what you need. And, and there are organisms that project, you know, like the bomber day or beetle.

I think they

david: Oh yeah.

joe: Uh, some,

nick: exo, an

exothermic. I forgot

geo: about the bomb.

nick: I mean, how did you forget that? An

exothermic, uh,

david: Baba Doba Dome

geo: I

joe: it’s like a hundred degrees. I think it’s like a little,

nick: it gives

joe: its enemies a little surprise. It’s like you’re messing with me and

david: and the ladies.

nick: and the,

joe: so

nick: you would need, you would need this, a projectable flame,

joe: maybe gland.

I, I just like, we’re going with glands. Like you, you would have to have some built in, almost

like Spider-Man his web gland,

nick: are you [00:40:00] talking about? Spider-Man uses web fluid, not all of them.

Mm. That was in

joe: MCU. They had the

nick: no, it wasn’t in the MCU. He did it.

joe: well, that comes out

nick: of you. Oh, that

joe: That there? Yep.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

nick: I mean, I, I don’t count him as in the MCU, but he’s in the MCU now, you know?

Once again, everyone was confused by him.

geo: what are some other, what are some other like fictional outta

nick: wait, it comes out of you just there,

joe: That

geo: that set themselves on fire?

I writer.

nick: Yep. I was gonna say, say, I think a Nicholas Cage, right?

Cage. There it is. Element, yeah.

geo: Nick Cage, cage

joe: Element also goes on fire

nick: element. You have,

geo: Cole? Yes.

nick: you have the, you don’t know who Element does

geo: No.

nick: No. Look on your face when you said that. Oh yeah. Element Stephen

joe: King’s fire starter. Oh, drew

nick: Barry

joe: Moore in the early eighties.

nick: that’s

geo: been a really long time since I saw that, and I really enjoy that

joe: she, her

nick: thing she didn’t

claim one, but

joe: projected the fire

geo: the, everything would be on f

joe: Well,

nick: that’s once you

joe: a little fire, then the[00:41:00]

geo: becomes a big fire.

joe: fire though,

geo: But it seemed like it just all of a sudden became really

joe: got that.

We didn’t start

geo: Yeah, we, we know, we know.

joe: Okay. Um, moving

nick: on.

stopped. That’s

geo: have, I

nick: have a list. I

joe: I have a

nick: a list of,

joe: of pre early fire controlling fictional characters pre Johnny Storm, 1961.

david: Ah, nice.

joe: so I was gonna go through a few of these. Uh, the Flame first appeared in Wonder World Comics number three

nick: wasn’t who 1939 inspired Johnny.

I mean, I think

joe: these kind of inspired, uh, that was 1939. You

nick: had the Human Torch,

joe: Jim Hammond, that’s the one right there. That was Marvel Comics number 1,

geo: 39. Woo.

nick: Mm-hmm. And

he was a synthetic

joe: Android who ignites into flames, flies, and protects fire. So he was an

nick: Android.

geo: I was gonna

nick: Android I

david: that

makes sense. Yeah.

Engineered. Yeah.

joe: You had, uh,

david: get, get around all the, all the biocompatibility.

joe: you had Prince Flame from Fiction House, planet [00:42:00] Comics

geo: Prince Flame. I

nick: thought he

david: at first I thought you were talking about Prince.

joe: Yes.

nick: Purple rain.

And

So Purple Rain and purple fire. Yeah.

He had full body flame control

joe: and he had fire projection. It was more a sci-fi. And we were talking about so many sci-fi in the golden age of comics like these sci-fi based, uh, comics.

We had fireman and dynamic comics, number 3, 19 41. And he gains fire powers from exposure to a volcano. He can flame on and off at Will, and he shoots flame and resists heat. Um, so very similar to Johnny Storm,

Man,

1941, punch Comics number one. He also shoots fire, super heat body abilities, wears a costume to contain or direct a flames.

geo: Like, um, the guy in the stand that started all the filming. Oh, right.

joe: Yes.

nick: What was his,

geo: he? Oh,

joe: that guy’s name.

Yeah,

nick: Gasoline.

geo: man.

No. Um,

joe: Gas man. No

nick: gas man. I

geo: I don’t know.

nick: know. It’ll probably, I don’t wanna be anywhere [00:43:00] near someone named that.

That’s a scam up.

geo: I know you read that so many

times.

joe: I

geo: Trashcan man.

Ooh, trash Can man.

joe: Trashy. Oh, trashy trash can man.

david: All right.

joe: Turkey tide.

nick: Okay. Yeah, and then there were, there were a number of,

joe: could imagine of kind of mythological folks who, who

david: Prometheus, right?

nick: Prometheus.

joe: You know, you had, uh, cer, , and Norris mythology was, uh, you know, the Ragnar Rock

You know, the giant who wields a flaming sword and engulfs the world of in Ragnar Rock.

So. Yeah, you had, um, you know, fre and uh, Islamic mythology.

david: Where do dragons come in?

nick: Dragons.

joe: yeah. Right. I think, you know, also they would, they breathe fire, so they have this ability. So they, that’s, and

so that got

me thinking, that’s why I went external with, with Johnny and trying to

david: Mm-hmm.

joe: a way to hand w them, because now you don’t have to explain [00:44:00] internal structures because you’re, uh, I think to David’s point, you have a lot more organs and systems that would be much more responsive and heat

damaging

effects that would, may take a long time to recover.

Our, our skin is very flexible and pliable and so, you know, a little more resistant to damage

nick: Was that a hint at the next episode?

david: Ooh.

joe: you mean the episode before this?

geo: Yeah. Flexible.

nick: Oh, oh, flexible. I don’t know where you’re going with it. Come on.

geo: yeah. It’s so confusing. Skin

nick: Flexibility.

joe: gotta have flexibility.

Um,

geo: I think Joe, you could be the solo stove man.

joe: A solo stove. I don’t wanna be the solo stove,

david: that’s another source of heat. that’s what you are in my phone now. Solo stove. Am

joe: I a solo stove man?

nick: Solo stove man.

joe: So, yeah.

Thinking about projection. Let’s go back ’cause I don’t know if we’ve solved that problem.

I guess we had the gland and you could [00:45:00] shoot out the gland.

geo: Is that like the goo

nick: Is that like the go? The No, the oohs,

geo: The goo in the lava lamp.

joe: Sure. Yeah, yeah. yeah. David’s point. Yeah. it. You

david: You know?

nick: wait, what

joe: a controlling,

nick: Why would that be? What

joe: a controlling gland to

nick: actually focus the fire

out? That

only

david: exactly you need to play. You need a way to focus.

Once you can focus, I feel like release is a little easier.

joe: Yes. ’cause

nick: a ‘

david: cause that’s,

nick: release

joe: stuff, like we talked about the bomb,

david: yeah. Like you dissipation. So once you have a, a channeling, uh, yeah. Anyway you, you generate the heat and then you localize it, and then you

And that can be done. I think that’s downhill.

joe: Yeah. once That’s downhill. the initial flames over your body squirting out

david: Once you have the

scaffolding,

joe: The

david: yeah, you can.

nick: squirting out.

your, oh, stop saying that. Goo.

I know There’s so many, there’s so many

david: just like another appendage.

geo: there’s so

nick: many [00:46:00]

geo: icky words. I think the, the only other thing,

joe: and so Johnny’s

kind of biology would be interesting ’cause we, we made all these modifications of skin and

david: Yeah. Right.

So how do you control it? Yeah.

joe: and things like that to, to actually have that.

nick: And if he loses

joe: his pain receptors, that already suggests that there’s been some neurological reworking

david: Some different type of feedback.

Yeah,

joe: that would happen. The turn on, turn off.

nick: I don’t, the

joe: thing I, I haven’t. Is quenching the fire? Is that as simple as stopping

nick: the

joe: release? I’m not gonna say ooze anymore. The release of

david: Right. Do or do you need an active shutdown?

I think you could I think release is as bad.

a, a closing of the channels. A closing of

the channels. That’s better.

joe: better. The of the channels.[00:47:00]

He’s finished.

Yes. But yeah, I mean that’s, yeah. And, and that, that fuel source, that, that could be lipid. That

geo: we figure out the dehydration thing?

joe: Well, we we talked

the protective jelly layer. Oh, gel layer. Okay. In there we talked about the conduits that might help with dehydration.

So as you have these stress events, you could be protecting or instead of having a proteins that, that’s, uh, d de nature, which means they just unfold. So proteins have a, usually a complex folding structure, and that’s what allows ’em to work and do specific work. You de nature, you’re just stretching that back out and then it can’t work any longer.

geo: And then is that when people die,

joe: People will die if there are proteins in nature. Yes. Okay. That’s, that’s generally what it happens.

david: People

Die.

joe: think

about the

frying egg. or a You heard it here first. Your

proteins Do not proteins We’re all gonna die,

geo: Defold

nick: You can’t be [00:48:00] folding yourself. And

they fold and, and usually they, they fold back in the same order so that you might go, what happens?

joe: You take the temperature down, so they actually denature then they start to kind of bundle up like spaghetti into clump and yeah, there’s problems. So,

david: then you get a LS or something.

joe: yeah, you get something bad. Let’s, um, don’t do that. People,

nick: um,

joe: yeah. So

nick: I

geo: that’s,

maybe we should list all the things you shouldn’t do.

nick: I just have a

david: set yourself on fire. There’s been a lot of don’ts

here. can end on some dos. Yeah.

joe: So,

Nick, what do you got? You said you had some hard hitting research coming in.

nick: Did I, I thought we were already go going over that, or, or, or, well, I

think he brought

geo: a lot in as far as like some of fans

joe: and. Extremophiles.

nick: have nothing on that stuff. No. He

dropped

geo: whole mouth thing. He

nick: He brought out, of like the, the setting of

geo: water on fire and then taking the heat.

nick: right.

And so the, the water on [00:49:00] fire,

joe: the set, you know. How big was this lake? A

nick: pond? It was like a small

joe: pond. Like some, a backyard pond.

nick: I mean, I don’t know what a backyard pond is. What is a backyard pond.

Joe, you don’t have a pond in your backyard

pond that would fit in

david: Was it? Yay big.

joe: Was he like

nick: a little, a

little pot of water? I mean, I can You know, end to the other. I this a fantastic, scooped out the few koy goldfish and,

joe: and on

david: we talk in Arizona golf course or New England golf course.

nick: I, I, I don’t know where either of those are, so I’m gonna go New England. I feel like they don’t have a lot of water there.

david: Oh yeah, I should have said something. Swampy

joe: Arizona doesn’t have a lot of water either. Come

by not a lot water, you would go Arizona,

nick: I don’t know, man.

It’s dry heat.

joe: Yeah, it’s, it’s dry

nick: I’m not from Arizona guys. Um, George is over here trying to fry eggs on sidewalks in Arizona. The

thing with, with

geo: Hey

joe: did he have, um, is his outfit specially [00:50:00] designed? Yeah. Does that give him some also protection? Potentially?

nick: It keeps unstable being nude. It’s every time he lights up is

in a nude. It, Sony doesn’t have the fashion It comes out

Buck

naked. No. It saves him from being Oh yeah. It’s so that he’s just like flame on and he comes

off. It’s so he doesn’t have a fashion Like, um, I

david: Hi.

nick: the first, first, until

the

fabric was made, he, he would just

stroll out flame. Pretty much. Yeah.

joe: just, you’re like, whoa, that guy is buck naked

nick: fly. Yep.

joe: on fire. Yeah.

Okay.

Okay. Um,

david: when you got it, flaunt it.

nick: what about his hair?

Hair.

That’s right. His hair doesn’t burn off. His

hair not burn off, which I think it would, that would be a nice fuel source. Yeah. I think that’s a

david: Oh yeah.

joe: the come, he should be shaved, he should have a shaved head.

nick: I mean, he was, has a mustache now

joe: have the

geo: the hair flaming,

joe: but then it, it burns off.

nick: But then we already established, that doesn’t happen to him. His eyebrows, he hold

the whole and body, Unless it’s made of a substance that helps to dissipate heat.

joe: but then how [00:51:00] biological substance. Yeah.

david: Like some, some keratin derivative.

joe: or something. Yeah. Or some other protein structure. Is this hair fluffy and light, or is it coarse and brittle?

nick: I.

david: Does it conduct

nick: You know,

joe: No. Yeah.

nick: this is on the pages of a comic. I have

no, once again, thank He’s an expert on that. You know, I, I, I don’t know.

joe: a comic, he might have fluffed his hair, like, you know, like a model, like, you know, we, a video. You

david: like flock of seagulls?

nick: That’s right.

joe: yes.

nick: Like Bobby, he throws his hair back. I don’t know man. He’s got a mustache. Yeah. Yeah.

joe: Yeah.

geo: That

nick: problem. Yeah. Hair.

joe: I think, I think he should be hairless. Like, we’re gonna do this. Right. He should be hairless, no

david: Full alopecia.

nick: That’s right.

So he, to glue him on every time

And I think all of his orpheus

should have

joe: membrane guards.

Like he should

david: Yes.

joe: Yeah. I [00:52:00] think nose, eyes, ears, mouth.

nick: Wait, so what is a membrane guard now? Like, is is it supposed to be like a flap?

geo: it.

joe: Yes,

nick: exactly.

This is

disgusting. He

geo: about it.

nick: Yeah, but he didn’t really go over it. He

just, it was like a lid.

Spanked their

flap. Also, man, you

geo: a lid

joe: You know, you have everything there.

nick: So you’re, you’re, you’re just pretty much putting corks in everything,

joe: the holes,

nick: corks in every hole.

joe: They’re

nick: not, you got a hole, we’re gonna cork it.

Flaps,

david: plug you.

joe: they’re membrane All right. And that’s, I mean, that’s in nature that are a lot of animals that have There are, Kind of, uh, protection.

geo: Well, is that what our, is that what our islands are?

joe: ways yes, but there are, I think all, I mean is it alligators? I’m trying to think of so many aquatic animals that are amphibious

david: With, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

joe: when they actually go into water, they have another membrane that will cover their

david: like STO in plants, right? STO are a great

nick: Stomata for

joe: gas exchange.

And so they allow gas [00:53:00] exchange between the environment. So maybe Johnny has some Sada and

david: Yeah.

joe: he can have

nick: some gas exchange

Johnny

geo: Ada.

in The gas exchange hanging with . Oh my,

david: Oh,

nick: look out Look out

geo: that gas exchange.

joe: Torchy.

david: well that explains the heat.

joe: He’s rigging a heat. But yeah.

nick: But that,

joe: I think that would be the way.

Now if flying is I don’t know. I got nothing for that.

david: I got nothing for flying.

I mean, unless we got gas exchange propulsion.

joe: It’s

nick: shooting it down. ’cause you guys have glands now

shooting down.

david: just like a whoopy cushion,

geo: Yeah.

nick: But you, gotta, he’s shooting out the flame it’s a, you also

have to generate enough

joe: for lift. you, you just can’t shoot like a little, like

nick: to set you on

joe: fire. I just need to shoot a little flame at you and you’ll

nick: go. But he doesn’t just web it out. It’s[00:54:00]

joe: yeah. He shoots it out like his

nick: hands.

Yeah. Which is what

geo: have. It’s like

nick: gland in his

geo: Ironman. That’s how he takes off.

david: hand glands,

joe: he,

nick: but, but he’s, he’s

joe: some propulsion, right? So you’re generating force to push, to give you lift. And he has, he has boots. He has like the propulsions on his boots and so he lifts

nick: off. He’s got the propulsions on his feet too.

joe: That’s

david: he, he stands

on his grand gland

hands.

joe: Johnny.

nick: Yeah. Oh, he has

joe: glands in his feet.

nick: I mean, I’d assume so.

joe: He has feet glands. We didn’t talk about that. I

I guess

if he has skin, he could shoot,

he could have glands all over the place. You’re right.

nick: He is a gland.

joe: we gave him a new layer of skin

geo: gland, man.

joe: That’s

nick: why his skin looks so good. Stop. Maybe

that’s

joe: his skin looks so good. He looks so

david: Oh yeah.

Glow up,

nick: But now he’s just gonna be hairless. He’s just

joe: just hairless

nick: Beautiful skin.

Skin though.

joe: skin though

geo: Hair.

david: but but yeah,

joe: What kind [00:55:00] of jelly do you apply to your

david: because it’s on fire.

nick: And so, yeah. So then I had

joe: you, you asked about I think you asked about the caloric intake.

Yeah.

david: Oh yeah.

joe: if we go with this whole process where you are you know, I mean, all sorts of stuff. You know, this new skin, skin regeneration. , this jelly, whatever it’s made out of, , maybe something like aloe vera kind of product in there. That’s, that’s very insulating.

nick: Yeah. I mean

joe: I’m, you’re probably just base metabolism.

You’re, you’re 10, 20,000. Um, I think if you’re an

nick: even ex skirting all the goose going,

joe: I think if you’re, you’re, I think that’s just chilling. I think it’s the most like wolverine level that, that this might be 50, 50,000, I mean, the cellular regeneration, the,

david: Yeah. Yep,

joe: You might need increased hemoglobin for oxygen, you know, we talked about.

So you don’t suffocate as you’re flaming on and depleting oxygen.

nick: I

joe: do think that you would, yeah, I think you would burn some significant calories

nick: in this burn

[00:56:00] process, no pun intended.

joe: yes. But yeah. So I’m, I’m on a high end 50 a hundred K per minutes of flaming on like, I think

david: brushing eggs all day.

joe: you’re just gonna be

nick: chewing through calories. Big Max Golo. Oh my.

joe: Just line ’em up.

nick: But

joe: they’re fantastic for, they’re pretty wealthy. Yeah,

nick: yeah.

joe: Yeah. So,

nick: I mean, they can afford

it.

joe: need to go to trial. I mean, that’s why they were doing unsanctioned

nick: space exploration

joe: led to this all, you know,

nick: this whole catastrophe.

because scientists are just normally wealthy.

david: we’re just great. in it. That’s right. Just hanging out We’re taking

with extremo foils.

joe: at the extreme of files. We’re going,

We’re gonna

go some un unsanctioned space Odyssey,

I’m Oh, yeah. Let’s go. Yeah,

let’s do it. I’m in. some, superpowers.

just need my

get little

nick: get little degree. Yeah,

david: [00:57:00] Just your honorarium and a vial of LSD.

geo: I’m in. That’s it.

nick: That’s

david: Let’s go

nick: that how we’re gonna get to space? Bunch of

LSD.

david: field research.

joe: get

somewhere.

nick: My car will turn into a spacecraft.

Here I go again.

joe: Yeah. So

nick: cool.

joe: think we did it. I think we pulled Johnny A.

geo: I don’t know what we did, but

nick: I mean, I, I I think we’ve completely made him

joe: Stillman

geo: Ani and

joe: Yes.

nick: Alright.

david: All right.

nick: Yeah,

david: Well, thanks. Thanks you all. It was a treat to be on here as always. I, I hope to get a green jacket on my third appearance,

so uh,

joe: there you go. Yeah, yeah. You got something

nick: you’re, you’re gonna be on for

david: I’ll get something.

nick: Season three.

geo: gonna get an honorary degree.

joe: We’re gonna get you

david: Oh yeah. Awesome.

nick: a nice suit, some

joe: Yeah, some oozing glance. That’s, uh, that’s it.

david: May we all have oozing glands.

nick: Oh no.[00:58:00]

david: Alright.

joe: on that note, you have, uh, you have me, Joe.

nick: Yeah. Nick.

joe: You got Nick. Got Nick. We’ve got Georgia and David and Oh, we got David still there. He already said bye when he said bye again.

david: Yeah, but I’m still here,

so yeah.

joe: We

nick: didn’t cut you

off. Bye.

You,

joe: We

nick: don’t

do that

today, guys. We let it,

joe: we let it ride out. And did we?

nick: I think we set some holes of flame

joe: We

geo: We

david: All right.

nick: Some hot holes. Holes.

david: will actually leave now.

nick: we’ll see you

david: Thanks Everyone.

nick: Bye-Bye Love.

joe: y’all.

Fantastic 4 series: Episode 38: The Thing: Strong Skin

Click the link to listen or search Rabbit Hole of Research where you find your other podcasts:
EP38: Ben Grimm and The Thing About Skin
NYT bestselling author Jonathan Maberry joins us to explore the handwavium, biology, and symbolism behind strong skin—from the Thing’s rocky dermis to memory tattoos and the scars that shape identity.

Transcript:

joe: [00:00:00] Hey,
welcome to the Rabbit Hole of Research. We’re down here in the basement studio with another exciting episode in our Fantastic four
series. We’ll be focusing
a little bit on the thing and
all things strong, tough skin. As usual, we have the whole crewhere. You have me, Joe, you got
geo: Nick, we’ve gotNick and Georgia.
joe: We’ve got Georgia.
geo: And
joe: have a specialguest with us.
geo: And for our
joe: we
geo: let the guestsintroduce themselves.
joe: Please.
Jonathan: Hi, I’mJonathan Mayberry. I’m a New York Times bestselling author. Multiple genres. Iwrite horror, science fiction, fantasy, whatever. And also a comic book writerwrote for Marvel for a bunch of years, dark Horse, IDW doing some freelanceprojects. Now they’re a lot of fun. I also edit Weird Tales magazine and keepmy myself pretty immersed in the pop culture world, which is my home space.
My, that’s my comfort zone.
joe: Yeah. Awesome. No,it should be fun. Hopefully we can fit [00:01:00]you, fit right in here with our witty banter at times. I don’t know. So you
nick: I do have tosay that I’ve read a lot of your stuff that I did not realize was yours untilabout a month ago. I was like, I read that. Oh wait, I know his stuff. It wasjust
Jonathan: get a lotof that from folks at events too. And that, that’s cool. It’s always a readingthis stuff that’s what matters most, but. When I was at the the world premiereevent for the Black Panther, Wakanda forever I not only did were peoplesurprised that I had written anything that became part of that movie.
Everybody there was surprised I was white including RyanCoogler. Ryan Coogler had came up to me in the, at the after party. He, you’rewhite. I’m like, I am. Oh my God. He had no idea. He thought I was black. Interms of talking about skin, that’s interesting.
joe: Yeah.
geo: There you go.That’s a great segue.
nick: Yeah. Sousually
joe: I
geo: have
joe: a definition thatget us grounded and I have a
geo: list
joe: so I’ll do thedefinition what is skin. [00:02:00] But I dohave a special list for Jonathan because I know he likes facts and he alwayshas posts on social media.
If you follow him on all the different flavors of social media,he has. Tell me something new or something. I don’t know. So
nick: I have
geo: a list and
joe: I’ll see how manyof those facts, but I’ll
geo: start with thedefinition to get us started. What is skin? Skin is biological armor.
joe: It’s a sensorinterface, a site of cultural
geo: inscription
joe: and a metaphor foridentity.
It’s the most visible and tactile representation of self and infiction, a canvas onto which transformation, trauma and power are projected. SoI think that’s
Jonathan: Wow. Nicelyphrased. I like that.
joe: you.
nick: Yeah. And so wewere,
geo: as I said,talking
joe: the FantasticFour.
geo: And,
joe: We already had thefirst episode on a Fantastic four come out.
And but just a recap. It’s a fictional
superhero team uh, by Marvel,
created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby first appeared in Fantasticfour, number 1, 19 61 Marvel
comics. [00:03:00] consideredMarvel’s first superhero team, or the
first family and helped establish a more human,
flawed,
family driven style that defined Marvel storytelling.
Ben was one of the members of that team. He was Reed Richard’scollege roommate and former football star.
Jonathan: Yep.
joe: And Ben had he, hewas
geo: after a
joe: trip
illegal
and or
A unscripted trip into space they
were bombarded by
cosmic rays Ben got disfigured and he was given this kind ofrocky, orange,
scaly skin
that was superhuman strength impenetrable and had all thesekind of nearly imper impervious to damage and things like that.
So yeah, that’s the character.
nick: Yeah. So I dohave to say that it is always so interesting seeing him in the comics becausethey tend to show the strength of his skin. ’cause are, [00:04:00] we’re considering it skin. Yes. I would
geo: consider
joe: skin. Yes. As the,
probably the
outer later the dermis was modified in some way, but,
nick: Yeah. And it’salways so fascinating ’cause I was reading an issue I’ll have to put it in theshow notes where they it was they were pulling him apart and like you just sawall of his skin. It looked like a gum being pulled. And it was just like, whoa.Like the amount of pain that has to be, I’m assuming it’s like a scab thatwould just be like.
Jonathan: Yeah. One,one that’s not ready to fall off, but they’re trying to pull it.
nick: exactly. Andthen I told him, I’m like, oh it’s, yeah. Fantastic. I love that.
Jonathan: And Ialways loved when Kirby would show me him getting a really hard impact. One ofthe ways they would use to emphasize the impact is pieces of rock would beflying off of him.
joe: Yeah.
geo: another
Jonathan: would beblood from a, a busted nose. But for him it was always pieces of rock fallingoff and that kind of defined how hard he was being hit because he’s impervious.
But somebody could [00:05:00]do that, at least to him,
joe: and knock off bitsof skin and or his outer structure, which is interesting. And thinking abouthow that would actually form I think NICU hit on it with and scar tissue wasone that, that immediately came to my mind that as he was bombarded was, wasthat now some scarification and you have this kind of, , in terms of scars, youget fibrous tissue that forms as you get the scar. So is that now
geo: been
joe: modified as DNA?And so you get this kind of overgrowth and then calcification and then almostkind of mineralization there that would form this kind of outer exterior.
then
as you as you were just pointing out, Jonathan, that as it getsdamaged, bits gets knocked off, but presumably is regenerated.
And so that means this is some
geo: active
joe: process thathappens.
Jonathan: And hisskin would have to be, his rock skin would have to have to be at least porousor something. Otherwise he would,
nick: Thanks.
Jonathan: the theskin’s the most important breathing apparatus next to our lungs. And [00:06:00] so he would need that. And funny ’causeI’ve had a conversation about this with Stan Lee years ago at the Houston ComicPalooza, I think it was.
And buttress, we’re talking about different characters and howthe, somehow the conversation come up is how they would get medical treatment.
nick: Oh,
Jonathan: Ben Grimmhad beautiful white teeth. how dentist worked on. Were his teeth set in gums orwere they set in
joe: Rock.
Jonathan: A couple ofus were asking questions of Lee and he is we didn’t think that far.
joe: I mean, Nails,Nonas fingernails.
Yeah. I mean you, you have all of those external
besides breathing and pores, you also have tactile sensation. Askin is our communication to our environment.
So if you lose that you lose a major sense. It’s almost likebeing blind or deaf or any losing any other senses. So that is something that Idon’t know if they cover that in any comic line or,
Jonathan: they touchon it because there are times, even though when he, especially in the earlyFantastic four comics, he and Johnny were always in a a baiting war. They’realways trying to get [00:07:00] you right intoeach other. And sometimes Johnny would try to scorch him and he would, he wouldact, he would run away, he would react to it so he could feel pain, feelpressure but his skin.
It was like being on the other side of a fireproof garment. Youfeel the heat, you just don’t get the actual firm. So that might be where theywere going with it if they even thought that far. But, because presuming thathe, he, something like that could exist.
And the version of it we’re seeing in the most recent trailersfits the old Ben Graham a little more.
How I envision him. He’s more fluid, he is more flexible. It’sless like a rock man trying to move than a man who made a malleable rock. Andit must be malleable.
If he’s going to reach
joe: right?
geo: Yeah.
nick: Be able to grabthings.
joe: Yeah. You have tobe flexible still. And that’s part of it, that when this transformationhappened, when
geo: Yeah.
Jonathan: theflexibility can’t just be the subdermal layer because if he was stretching, youwould see gaps as, so it must be the rock itself rocket [00:08:00] that is stretching like an alligator skin and so on,which looks armored, but it still has a degree of flexibility. ’cause otherwisethe thing couldn’t operate couldn’t swim or anything else.
nick: that’s actuallya really good point. Like putting it towards like an alligator skin. I wouldn’thave even thought of that.
Jonathan: Actuallywhere I’ve always gone with the things skin because it has to move and know.You mentioned that I’m a research or knowledge junkie. I am a knowledge junk. Iwas a kid I, that’s what I was trying to figure out how he did that, where theHulk got his extra mass from, because Bruce was maybe 150 pounds and the Hulk.
So there, I knew just enough about science even as a kid. Tohave questions. And some of those I did get to ask, Stan, because I got to knowhim pretty well last few years of his life. And also some of the other folkswho worked on Fantastic Four. I had conversations with John Byrne about it.
J Byrne was more of the, everything’s elastic, just reallytough thing. And I mentioned to him about I called it crocodile skin, but thesame alligator skin, same thing. [00:09:00] Andhe said that, that’s probably exactly what it’s like that just thicker.
joe: Yeah.
nick: A
joe: more adorable or
geo: yeah,
joe: Or calcified insome way.
So you would have that, some combination, maybe armadilloscaling also would, it has some level of flexibility in It’s the way it’sjoined. And
geo: also
Jonathan: he smiles,he laughs, he frowns. All of those require elastic skin of the facial musclesand skin.
joe: And a muscle.Yeah. You, the muscle control of all that’s just not you.
You still have to maintain that. Yeah. Yeah. That
Jonathan: I.
nick: Yeah.
Jonathan: like thataspect of the thing of that, that concept of the thing being more elastic,more, it makes him more human and also makes him more of a scarified victim ofwhat’s going on, rather than a transformed into a monster thing. Because I, hewas always about the monster and he wasn’t a monster.
He was a victim of a reaction, a mutated skin reaction tosomething, it’s a cosmic race. It’s unfair and sad that he became, the [00:10:00] ugly one.
nick: I think you hiton a good thing right there where he does get identified as a monster and seenpeople with different deformities do get, back then people were like, oh,they’re either had a curse put on them or something.
It was just always, this is a monster.
Jonathan: yeah. Andthen we’re leaning in a little bit to the paranoia that was pretty common inthe fifties and sixties, anyone who wasn’t us. That, that other thing, plus,it’s the beginning of the civil rights era. Era, so you have a lot of that,it’s not us thing but that’s also, again, Kirby and Lee leaning into, justbecause it looks different, doesn’t make it not human.
I think there was a little bit of that in there too, which theyexplored with the X-Men and some other things. But I love the fact that BenGrimm is a good guy and I hated the fact that, and so many of the early comics,he’d be walking on the street maybe with a slouch hat and a car up.
Somebody would see him and it would be terrified. First off,why about issue two? They should know he exists.
geo: Right
Jonathan: It, they,Lee and Kurt kept wanting to make the point. And it’s funny [00:11:00] because the point they were making is whatwe in, in, in the novel trade it’s one of the rookie mistakes of assuming thereader doesn’t remember from the last episode to detail play down and keepsneeding to be reinforced.
I can understand it in Fantastic Four ’cause it was the firstMarvel comic, but they kept it going well into I think the forties issue,forties and in that
Still regarded as a monster. And I think even I, I’m Monster Ithink was maybe one of the titles or this man, this monster that was the
So that he’s still trying to get back to being human ’cause hestill is has now bought into the, people see me as a monster, therefore I amone.
geo: Yeah. That
Jonathan: It’s a sad
joe: and that, thatseemed like some of that storyline, if we think about just his identity, thathe was just sweet, caring person, but then he had this external kind of, it wasthis play maybe oversimplification
of these, traits that he had.
And you get that [00:12:00] andI you brought up. Just to segue a little bit to the civil rights movement thingis Luke Cage then in the, who came out, who also then was given tough skinunder different circumstances, this coerced, experimental activity. And thenthe racist the warden or police officer screwed with the
instrumentation.
then he was given, the super strong literally impenetrable kindof skin. So this very tough skin. And so that was a very different. So he wasvery normal on the outside, but society, at, seen him as a monster. So it’sthis this area.
Jonathan: also do youguys, guys know who John Lewis was, right?
nick: Yeah.
geo: Yeah. Yeah.
joe: yes.
Jonathan: So he did acomic called a March for IDW. We did a signing, together at one of, at ComicConone year. And we were talking, and Luke Cage was I think just coming on TV atthe time somewhere around the the Luke Cage era on Netflix.
And we were talking, and he’s in his theory on the, you LukeCage having the armored skin, is that black men, [00:13:00]black people had to be so bulletproof in terms of their reactions to what isbeing
About. That, what they did to Luke, what Luke represented was,no matter what you say, you can’t hurt me.
Was that kind of an approach that was at least John Lewis’stake, and I valid one
joe: Yeah. No, I,
geo: But
Jonathan: but again,I don’t know if the creators had that specifically in mind. It’s like withGeorge Romero in Night of Living Dead. I just wanna jump
A second, because in Ge Night of Living Dead, you had a blackman who was the only strong, intelligent
geo: right.
joe: And
Jonathan: and all thereviewers said, my God, this was this incredible civil rights movie.
It’s about racism. It wasn’t, he was the only good actor whoauditioned.
joe: Yeah,
Jonathan: right,George Romero saw those reactions and from then on leaned into that as theinterpretation of even that first movie. I think I would agree Marvel may becounting its own design aesthetic when, they gave some of these characters,these qualities.
I think they [00:14:00] may,I’m hoping at least on some subliminal level, they were trying to make thatkind of of equitable statement, about just because we are different does notmean we are bad or wrong or evil or monsters or anything. And, Marvel had themore progressive vibe than DC anyway, so I think that may have been, aningredient in the soup at least.
joe: Yeah. No, yeah, Ithink I totally agree with that and see that from that perspective especiallygrowing up in, in America as a a. Person of color, a black man that, that it issomething that you go out in the world and you have to be
as
good or better than your white counterparts at times.
And sometimes you’re the only, and so then you have that weightgoing out into the world, so that, that is also, both. And Luke Cage’scharacter was a large man, almost a John Henry kind of figure. So it wasn’tlike they took a skinny, black man and said, okay you’re now
nick: but superskinny.[00:15:00]
joe: he was
geo: a right,
joe: He was really a,he was
nick: intimidatingfigure. Yeah, that’s
joe: right. For, so
geo: and it wasliterally having tough skin. Literally
joe: skin. And,
geo: And, being ableto deal with
joe: right. And
geo: All, and skin,and
joe: Touch upon it alittle bit. But, enslaved people were used in experiments on skin andparticularly testing of thick skin.
So there was this
geo: theory
joe: that, theseenslaved people didn’t feel pain because they had thicker hides like animals.And so you had
geo: a
joe: number of slaveowners who would do these experiments and torturous experiments and go throughit. So that was it. And those myths persist even today.
That, with pain medication and thing that, that black peopledon’t need, as much, or can tolerate more pain because of these these kind ofracist ideals that, that were put out
nick: and that havecontinued,
joe: has continued.Yeah.
geo: Yeah.
Jonathan: there,there was a a poem that may Angelou read at Temple University years ago, [00:16:00] and one of the lines in it, and I’ve triedto find this online, is just because I survived being whipped didn’t mean Iliked it.
joe: Yeah.
Jonathan: That andthat
geo: kind
Jonathan: speaks alittle bit to this, just because they survived the things that people put themthrough, didn’t mean they were invulnerable.
It meant they, they were committed to survival
It should have been admired rather than looked at as a freak ofnature, thing. But,
joe: No, definitely.Yep. No.
Jonathan: I just
wanna say one more thing about Fantastic Four. I don’t know ifyou know this story, Joe, but that comic first of off, it was my favorite comicand this was the very first comic I ever
joe: Wow. There it is.
nick: Oh damn.
geo: Oh wow.
Jonathan: Bought thatwhen I was a kid.
I was nine years old.
geo: Wow.
Jonathan: The thingabout Fantastic Four is I, my background had a lot to do with skin in thisregard. My father, who was a terrible human being, ran the local chapter of theKKK. So I grew up in a household dominated by racism in a neighborhood inPhiladelphia that was known as White Town, USA.
That was the [00:17:00]nickname of my neighborhood. It’s still rated as the worst neighborhood inPhiladelphia, even, it’s yay team. And it was
joe: which neighborhooddid you grow up in? Kente. Okay. I was gonna try to guess, but I didn’t
Jonathan: never beenthere. If a black family would move in the neighborhood, their house would befirebombed,
joe: Yeah. Wow.
Jonathan: terribleplace.
So when an issue, was it 52 that black Panther showed up? Whenthat character f because I’ve been, even though this was the first, fantasy 466 was the first comic I bought. I’ve been reading comics since I was a littlekid. My brother gave me all his comics before he went off to Vietnam.
So I had, fantasy four, going back to issue two and issue 52 ofFantasy four introduced a black character who was nobody’s sidekick. He was no,he was not comic relief. He was not a start to, he was the king of his ownnation. He was a scientist and he was a superhero. And of course, my fatherwould see that comic, he’d rip it up.
And, I would always rebuy them. And then later on in seventhgrade, I actually went to a, my middle school librarian and brought a co [00:18:00] one of the copies one of the comics in andsaid my father, she knew who my father was. Everybody did, my father hates thiscomic. I don’t really know why.
’cause I was, I hadn’t met any people of color up until seventhgrade. My neighbor was white. And she looked at the issue and said thatparticular, she was about apartheid. I’m like, what? What is that? And sheexplained it and she said do you know about the Jim Crow laws? I’m like, no.
And she said, do you know who Martin Luther King was? I said,yeah, he was this, and unfortunately, I used a racial epithet because that’swhat we were trained to use. I said, he was a bad guy who was killed my father,had to throw a party. And she said, sit down. For two and a half hours.
She gave me a crash course in what intolerance and racism areall about.
nick: the
Jonathan: And theissue that I brought in was interesting because it speaks to the topic hereabout skin. It was the issue where Tal is arrested in the Marvel universeversion of South Africa. I forget what the, what they used to call it in thecomics, but he was arrested, he was in prison.
And Ben and Johnny go to [00:19:00]break him out. Ben is orange, brown, Johnny when he is a is red a brown man anda red man helped a black man out of a prison. That is not an accident. EvenSue. Nowhere in sight.
joe: Yeah.
Jonathan: And it flewright over the head of a lot of people. But, my my librarian, she said, this islike very clear.
It’s, this is about, the races who have to stick togetherbecause they have a greater enemy. But they’re still people and they should bere regarded based on their actions and, content of their soul or quality ofsoul. But it was so interesting that they had, I think it was Ro Roy Thomasmaybe wrote that episode over that issue, but it was so clear, brown, red andblack.
joe: Wow.
geo: Yeah.
joe: Yeah.
Jonathan: threedifferent skin tones that were really politically charged at the time, withthat 1971 or so. And it, because it could, they could float it by people in acomic, because you could talk about different skin colors, different skin typesin comics because they’re superheroes or super villain.
geo: Right?
Jonathan: But therewas a group, [00:20:00] there was a percentageof the fan base that was getting it.
joe: Yeah. That’s good.I know
Jonathan: I got ahint of it there. And from then on my views and my father’s views split justsay on an epic level.
geo: wow.
joe: Yes. No,
nick: So I have toask how.
joe: how.
nick: Did he knowthat you wrote for Black Panther and all this? He
Jonathan: He was, hedied before that. But had started studying martial arts on the sly when I wassick because, it was a very bad household to grow up. And my four sisters and Iwere pretty badly, abused. And when I was 14, he and I had it out. We had afight. And from that point on he just say there were no more meetings of theKKK in our house.
And he did not make any statements or put his hands on anyone.But
He did not live long enough to see my Marvel comic stays. SoI’m hoping that he’s in his graves spinning it about war. None. Not only did Iwrite Black Panther, I wrote Black Panther, but the female lead, so I wrote afeminist Black
geo: Wow.
Jonathan: probablyhis bones have probably exploded.[00:21:00]
geo: Wow.
Jonathan: I’m okaywith that.
joe: Yeah.
nick: That is sointeresting to hear like that Is your upbringing like being able to come fromthat kind of background to writing some fantastic stories about minority leadsthat, that’s so in
Jonathan: of thatstory. I got the job at Marvel for this particular thing ’cause Reggie Hu,who’d been writing Black Panther. I was already done. I had done a MarvelZombies, I did a Punisher on Wolverine thing, for Marvel by that point. Andthey were Reggie was thinking of stepping down.
He had been the writer for Black Panther. And they were lookingfor someone to replace him. And the assumption was they would, he would pick ablack writer which makes perfect sense. But he heard me talk on the radio,talking about my childhood and how the Black Panther was the pivotal momentwhere my life began splitting away from my father’s racism.
So he went to bat for me at Marvel and got me the gig. And alsobecause I had spent 35 years of my adult life teaching women’s self-defense, hedecided to [00:22:00] give me an extra littlebonus. He said, look, the last six issues of my run, we’re gonna turn Sureyinto the panther. Why don’t you come and post, write that storyline.
I’ll do the maid storyline, but major storyline. But you do theSurey storyline, so you’ll be the first person to put her in the armor and thenyou’ll pick up the comic after that. That’s what we did.
geo: Wow, that’samazing.
Jonathan: I’m still,I, Reggie was also at the Black Panther, Wakanda forever and we were joking.
He said, that radio, if you hadn’t done that radio interview, alot of this wouldn’t be happening right now. But, it was so surreal.
joe: Yeah,
geo: Wow. So
joe: I do want to touchon one of your characters who has skin
as part of their storyline, and that’s Monk and that,
geo: yeah.
nick: You had to
geo: know that wascoming.
Jonathan: actually, Ididn’t I didn’t, but I’m glad you brought up. Monk is one of my favorite
geo: It’s, I love himso much. Glip is like, one of my all time favorite novels. Yeah.
joe: Georgia had, she
geo: and that’sprobably why I
joe: on our chalk boardin our kitchen, and she
geo: Did you, Ialready read
joe: book. And I wasI’ve [00:23:00] been reading your stuff for awhile. And Georgia picked up that book ’cause it was just laying in, in thehouse. And then she was like, oh, this is did you read this line?
I was like, I read the whole book. Yes, I
geo: know.
Jonathan: Monkappears in two other novels and in a short story collection. He’s in Inc.
joe: Yep. Yeah, sure.
Jonathan: BurnedShine, the latest Joe Ledger
joe: Yep.
nick: If you can seethey geeked out and had all your
Jonathan: yeah, thereyou go. And of course, monk Addison’s
geo: That’s right.Yeah.
Jonathan: But hestarted off as a comic book character.
Actually.
geo: Oh, wow.
Jonathan: at onepoint IDW was going to do a shared horror universe, kinda like the DC and theMarvels with the a shared, so it was gonna be Steve Niles Joe Hill, myself, oneor two other guys. We were gonna create monsters that lived in the same world,but were also like heroic monsters.
And we were all ready to go. And then there was a managementchange at Marvel at the IDW rather than never happened. So I took the characterback and I decided to make a short story out of him. And it intended to be aone-off. But as soon as I start writing, I just love the concept of someone whois [00:24:00] haunted by what he does and bythe, the faces of dead people on his
And their ghosts never leave him,
joe: and
Jonathan: are we’regetting a little bit of interest in for film. VIN Diesels reading Ink rightnow.
nick: Oh,
joe: That would be,that, that would be incredible. I can
nick: totally see.That’s really cool.
geo: Oh
joe: and to folks whoare listening you should go read one of the, we’ll put in the show notes, oneof the many stories that Monk is in, but he’s a, an a private
Jonathan: I couldBrenda, he’s a former special ops soldier who then became a private militarycontractor, burned out, went on the pilgrims road to find who he was. And hefound out like he got a tattoo at one point. And he realized that when thetattoo was completed, it was a face of someone.
He was able to then relive their death. And there, there was alittle girl that was murdered and he is able not only relive her death, but seewhat she saw when she was dying, which gave him clues to be able to go out andfind the killers. And that became his road to, it’s hard to call it salvation’cause he isn’t going out killing people.
But at the [00:25:00] samepoint, he’s, it’s a, he’s doing something that is a redemption story, not areligious story, but a redemption
And he has all faces all over him of all these murder victims.And when the tattoo is completed, he, relieves the death, goes finds the killerand if he can stop this person, not as revenge, but to prevent the person fromdoing more killing, and he takes the guy off the board, but the ghost that kindof hired him to do this is always with him.
So he’s surrounded by all the ghosts of the people that he’s,that were murdered and he killed their killers, but they’re always with himlike 24 7. And it, it’s a tough life, but he’s one of my favorite characters.There’s a lot of the thing in him in that with the thing. You always know wherehis moral compass is pointing. He’s not a conflicted character. He is notreally a gray area of character. Reed gets real gray at times. The thing, if hehas your back’s covered. Monk is the same way. Monk’s a dangerous guy. He’s notnecessarily [00:26:00] friendly, he’s not, I’mnot even sure he is likable, for the people who know him. But if he has yourback,
joe: Yeah.
Jonathan: You’reokay. You’re gonna be okay. He will not ever hurt the innocent. And that’sthere’s, so there’s a little bit of Ben Grimm in him for sure.
joe: yeah,
geo: Wow.
joe: it’s That ideathat the tattoos are speaking through him, to him, I was looking up some stufffor this episode and preparing is the Skin Ego it’s this kind of theory Dieter,I. And Zoey and suggests that the skin serves as a metaphorical container for theego and provides a sense of boundary and containment for psychic content. TheSkin Ego is like the physical skin, and it’s the boundary that separatesindividual from the external world and also holds to psychic apparatus togetherbody boundaries reflecting kind of psychological boundaries. So it, it was indigging around I was, trying to make the science of monk work a little.
nick: bit.
geo: So I,
Jonathan: Yeah,actually I need to find that thing you were talking about, I [00:27:00] needed to read that. It sounds like it’sreally the right thing for me because if we’re gonna be pitching Monk for filmor tv, I want to be able to build a pitch that really digs deep into thispsychology of it. Most people don’t know this, but Vin Diesel’s an actuallyreally well read individual.
nick: Oh yeah,
joe: Yeah,
Jonathan: He doesn’talways play those types of characters. Unlike Johnny Bernthal plays ThePunisher, the two of them look like together. Based on some of the charactersthey played looks like together, they, collectively of the IQ of about 60. Butin reality, both really good, down to earth nice guys.
Some of the press isn’t always this. I think the press defines’em by their characters more than by them.
But
joe: VIN Diesel, beforethe Fast
geo: Series,
joe: was in BoilerRoom, which I thought was just an incredible movie where it wasn’t Muscle andBraun. It was a very, it was a, a. Thinking movie, I guess if we’re gonnaclassify
nick: Guns
geo: versus,
joe: Yeah.
But I, that was some of his early stuff before he got into theaction. And he found this stride [00:28:00]and, I think that happens. Like he’s a beefy dude and he plays those rolesreally well, but Yeah.
Jonathan: hilariousthough that he’s a DD dungeon master, though.
geo: Yep.
joe: Oh yeah.
nick: Yeah. And he’sa giant nerd.
geo: Oh, wow. Yeah,
Jonathan: actuallyhas a cloak with the hood when he plays
geo: wow.
joe: Wow.
nick: I’ve read that
Jonathan: Becausehe’s one and Henry CA’s one too, and you got these two guys who are, they’redefined a lot by their ability to punch things
Yet, they’re both book nerds, fantasy nerds, pop culture nerdsmakes me like them a lot more,
geo: I think that’sperfect for playing Monk. Because he is such a tough guy, but is introspectiveand do you know what I mean? So that just Yeah.
Jonathan: Sure. Andmonk is trying to find, there, there’s a, I have a long game with the characterof Monk. He’s trying to find his way to the fire zone, which is referenced in acouple different works. And it’s a book I will be actually writing called TheFire Zone that, that kind of TERs together.
But he, he wants peace,
joe: Yeah.
Jonathan: he’s doneso much harm in his life. As a, first not asking questions, who he [00:29:00] has to shoot when he was wearing a uniformand asking even fewer questions when he was a private military contractor, hehas, to quote black Widow a lot of red in his ledger and he
And, that isn’t usually done by doing pretty stuff. But alsohe’s good at it and he knows he’s good at it. And there’s a burden there too.When somebody is good at something, even if it’s something that hurts them, butit benefits other people. It’s hard to lay down your sword and shield on thatone.
nick: Yeah,
joe: No, that’s good.Now,
geo: monk also, it’snot just about getting the tattoos and having the ghosts, it’s also what’s inthe, it’s the actual blood, right?
Of,
Jonathan: Yeah. Bloodis mixed with holy water and tattoo ink to create these these tattoos. And hisbest friend Patty Cakes is the tattoo artist. It was her daughter that wasmurdered and that was his first, first of these tattoos. It’s,
joe: I think I thinkonly one of it I, as I’ve heard you talk about this and you do not have atattoo, Jonathan, is that right? Or do you, okay.
geo: Yeah.
joe: You’re like me.
geo: I don’t have,but
Jonathan: We’re lessthan a month [00:30:00] away from me being agrandfather
nick:congratulations.
geo: Oh, wow.
Jonathan: thanks. My,my son and his fiance are, are expecting and the baby’s gonna be named Orion,
geo: Oh, nice.
joe: Yeah.
Jonathan: so afterthe baby’s born and healthy and mama’s healthy and everything else. Sam, my sonand I are gonna go out and get Orion constellation tattoos.
joe: Awesome.
nick: cool. Verycool. Honestly, it just feels like a cat scratch.
joe: So I
nick: was gonna say,Nick has, I have multiple, yeah. It, oh, you got that thick skin right here.
joe: Oh boy.
nick: There,
joe: now
Jonathan: it’s beenpunctured enough times. I used to be a bodyguard, so I had been stabbed withice pick screwdrivers, knives chopped in the shoulder with a meat cleaver andet.
nick: o yeah.
joe: Yeah. So
nick: So
joe: I,
Jonathan: I have, myskin is not impervious Wish. It was really
joe: If
geo: it was, you wentto get medical
joe: That’s always init. You
nick: brought that upearlier
joe: how do you get,how do you get treated if you need
geo: someone
nick: needs to goinside of
geo: you to
joe: fix something.That’s
Jonathan: I thinkthat’s a missed opportunity for Marvel to do a TV series about, ’cause theyhave [00:31:00] damage control and they had thenight nurse. But I think a clinic for superheroes would be
joe: Yeah.
geo: In Luke Cage,they tried to, they were trying to Netflix. They got
joe: shot with thebullet
nick: that
joe: the kind ofexploding drill tip.
geo: And then she wastrying to get,
joe: she took ’em backto the
geo: original Right.
joe: and cooked them inthe,
geo: there was a,
joe: whole clam.
And it’s interesting ’cause mollus
geo: actually, thereare
joe: that have ironkind of formation in their foot. So in the, so they can scrape algae off ofrocks and fer those out there, mullis are like octopuses cuttlefish clams.Those are classified as mollus.
And they have
geo: shell
joe: they have a footthat can come out and they. They can do work. And so that’s one. And then theyhave, there’s another mole that has like teeth, like kind of iron teeth tocrack shells and things like that. So it is a,
Are some real world. And so that was the idea there that,that’s, and the show, they played on that, that’s what was in this soup.
And they were gonna heat ’em up and then that would [00:32:00] loosen the structure, the molecularstructure, which a
nick: little, a lotof hand waving
joe: as a, so
nick: I was like, oh,
joe: does this work?
geo: But yeah,
joe: it was they didcover
geo: that. At leastthey, at least they tried to cover it. Yeah. Tried attempt to
joe: explain it.
But,
Jonathan: Yeah. Andthey used the night nurse character, I’m forgetting her, Claire, they usedClaire as,
joe: Yep. Yep.
Jonathan: as thego-to person for Daredevil and so
geo: Yeah.
Jonathan: I wouldlove to have seen that become a secret department within the hospital sheworked
I might pitch it to Marvel
joe: yeah.
geo: I like that.
Jonathan: doctorfriends. We could some people who would advise me, so
nick: that would be areally cool, like just medical series. Yes. Yeah,
joe: if you’re lookingfor a writer, then, happy to write something for you.
geo: Nonetheless
nick: the other thingI was
joe: say about thetattoos and you, another thing I was looking up was all of the kind of dermalsensors.
I, I didn’t really know a lot about that till I was looking itup, but the MIT had a project where they were using bio sensitive inks in therethat was a reactive to glucose, pH, sodium kind of to monitor [00:33:00] health . And so this tattoo ink was biowas actually bio censored.
And so you have this kind of.
Jonathan: They’reworking on diabetics to be able to like literally flash a little warning when,things like that. Cancer sensors and other things. And also the, one of thethings they’re, they’ve been talking about, I don’t know if they’ve gottenthere quite yet, is an implant that will sense the onset of seizures of onekind or another, and then transmit immediately to 9 1
Or to the, the contact person for, care. It’s a great idea. Andthat’s the kind of body mods I’m okay with. I’m not a big fan of body mod forthe most part, but that one, those sort of things, when science is used for theright thing,
Right? I’m
joe: Yep.
Jonathan: doing upone of my upcoming Joe Ledger novels is going to deal with cybernetics and allof its different good and bad phases.
And I started doing some research and man, it’s amazing what’sunder RD right now. And it’s freaky that we’re so much further along than Ithought we were. A lot of the stuff is there, it’s just a matter of getting theright funding, right grants and [00:34:00]getting it past people who don’t want that kind of thing attached to them.
They’ll find with going out and getting a barcode or a QR codetattooed on them, not something, that’s not stylish, but their health.
joe: Yeah. I think theso at the University of Chicago where I do research at and work I’m part of thethe cube, which is a quantum NSF funded facility where they’re
geo: where they’re
joe: trying to developquantum sensors for biological applications like that. And so that is, it’sreally, so I was just in a meeting because I’m a biologist, so I go and try tointerface with the physicist and chemists talk about applications.
So that’s where. I come in,
geo: I know
joe: enough to talkabout qubits and, how entanglement works, but I’m not, that is not myexpertise. But and going over how these sensors can work to report informationout is super important. So yeah it’s a fascinating as I got into that and hearabout some of the things and, ’cause it’s like, how do we get this
geo: thing that
joe: in cells on aPetri dish now into a body or what’s the [00:35:00]mechanism?
And, it’s
geo: the, you’reright
joe: it is
geo: some of the
joe: stuff that’s insci-fi and, it’s now making its way and it’s that’s more real than you think,
Jonathan: sciencefiction has always been one of the reasons they called it speculative fictionor, it’s a lot of people looking forward. The cell phones, we’re clearlyinspired by the communicators on Star Trek, but we do more, much more now. Thecell’s far more, it’s like the communicator, the tri-quarter, about 15 otherthings.
In our phone now, but that’s where the idea came from for itsstructure. And a lot of other things, what I grew up reading, the reprints, theban of reprints of the old doc Savage novels, man of bronze, if you’ve everread any of those. They published 175 of them published in the thirties andforties.
And he always had advanced technology that he developed and alot of it’s stuff we have now.
geo: Wow. Yeah.Contact
Jonathan: lensesanswering machines, planes that, this is 1934 planes that flew 500 mile anhour.
Have that. All so many of the things that, that Lester Dent,who wrote most of the novels, put in the stories for [00:36:00]things that people were just saying, wouldn’t it be cool if
writers threw that stuff into fiction and some of the peoplereading that fiction grew up three scientists.
joe: Yes. That’s theway it works sometimes.
geo: Yeah.
Jonathan: one of mybest friends, one of my best friends, Ronald Coleman, who’s now actually acharacter, ongoing character in my Joe Ledger stories.
But he’s a molecular biologist, stem cell scientist. And I’mconstantly talking to him about wouldn’t it be cool if we could do this?
And sometimes he’s yeah we did that in
joe: Yeah.
Jonathan: Or we’reall come up with, wouldn’t it be cool if we could do this? Would this even bepossible? He is not yet, but maybe by the time the book is out, because I knowworking on grants for that, I love science and I love the fact that keepsmoving forward.
What I don’t like is that there are groups that, that aretaking this science, and of course the biggest funding is for DARPA and thingslike that. The military research,
nick: Yeah.
joe: Yeah.
Jonathan: I’ve talkedto those guys a bunch of times and yeah, some scary nerds.
joe: right?
nick: The best kind,scary nerds. So I do have a question, Joe. How likely is it to have [00:37:00] skin? Like the thing, because I know thereis that syndrome where
joe: yeah,
nick: guy had thetree skin,
joe: Your skin can cal,calcification of skin and I’m trying to think of the disorders.
Like FFAP, FOP or something
nick: I think it’ssomething around there. Yeah. And so
geo: your,
joe: yeah, you justhave this kind of all your fibrous tissues begin to calcify and over calcifyinto bony structures. The problem with that, you’d have to make this next leapbecause as we talked about earlier, how do you make that flexible, right?
Because those folks usually are fairly, they come very stiff intheir structure and they, and rigid. So you need to, now how do you make that.So almost, it can’t be an internal structure. It has to be external in terms ofthe way you would form it. So that would have to be either a new fourth skinlayers
nick: created
geo: that
joe: then give you thisextra properties and or your dermis would now excrete something some material, [00:38:00] either, one of these iron
geo: sulfide kind of
joe: compounds or couldbe even calcified.
We talked about diatoms in I think the plant episode. And sowhere they produce silicate or coral, they produce a calcium kind of deposit.So there are organisms that do excrete these materials. And you could havethese snails That’s right, snail shells, right? So there are these bio your
nick: teeth
joe: a biomaterial,right?
And so there’s a lot of folks Working on that. I know some ofthose folks, and it’s fascinating because the interface between biology and,this kind of this biomaterial is unique and, difficult to reproduce. That’s whyyou go in for dental work or implants stay, they don’t stay all the time orthey, it’s a interesting field there.
But yeah I
Jonathan: One of theconceits within comics though on that topic though, is that when, they neverconsidered that a lot of these mu mutations would be detrimental to
joe: Yes. Yep. Yes.
Jonathan: withinskin, the [00:39:00] way it is, he would be a,a patient in a hospital somewhere. He would be walking around punching the.
nick: Yes. When wetalked about
joe: the cosmic rays inthemselves would be pretty damaging, so you would have to be a mutant alreadyto tolerate the cosmic race from not just being a cancer patient. You’re right.He would be in those the, instead of tough skin, it would just have tumors allover him and, a ruined thyroid because he’s been,
geo: On your chest,
joe: You’re now beendevastated by cosmic race unshielded and exposed to cosmic race.
Which, you know, so Yeah. It you’re right. About that.
nick: Yeah, so
joe: And so
geo: it
Jonathan: It doescreate a, an opening though for stories to be told that would explain it. Andjust like there have been a lot of folks that come along and tried to explainthe physics of Star Trek or Star
geo: right.
Jonathan: On thephysics of Superman. There are plenty of books out there where, scientists likeyourself are trying to say, okay, if that is
joe: right. That’sright
Jonathan: then how.
I played with this, actually not on, on the skin subject, but Idid a book called Zombie, CSU, where I [00:40:00]interviewed a couple hundred people in the real world about what would happenif zombies were real. If zombies were here, inarguably here, I would beresearch, react, respond, whatever. And, talked to scientists, talk to, all thedifferent types of scientists military and everyone else, everyone has atheory, but it would be, it would need to be a new there wouldn’t have to bethere.
Somebody have to be, throw a hell of a lot of money intoresearch to finding out how these people are not dying as a result of thesechanges. And I think that opens up a lot of storytelling possibility for comicstoo. But I would love to do an anthology, a prose anthology where scientistswrite superhero stories that explain the superheroes.
joe: Yeah.
geo: No.
nick: there you
geo: there you go.No,
Jonathan: I do know abunch of scientists, writers.
joe: Yeah.
geo: Yeah,
joe: Yeah. right. Yes.
Jonathan: Some inthis room.
geo: that’s
nick: That’s what
joe: that’s what we tryto do on the podcast. Nick could throw me that question. I
geo: know. Yeah, it’s
joe: I
geo: do think,
joe: and you talk aboutsome of those things, like you have other heroes Colossus who has, he puts themetal armor on and you talk about your skin [00:41:00]breathing, he’d have to take that off pretty quick and, or is there some othermechanism that he’s using to actually dissipate heat and things like that.
So you do have these kind of these characters who have thisthese abilities. And then to form a metallic skin and then take it away alsorequire some level of. Rapid metabolism. And on this, on the podcast, we alwaystry to explain things in terms of how many Big Macs would you have to eat tocompensate for the caloric load of doing some of these modifications quickly.
Jonathan: Yeah.
joe: that’s right.Yeah.
geo: Which no talks
joe: the calories, sothat’s why
Jonathan: Yeah withColossus, it would make a little more sense if instead of it just being steel,it was plates that,
joe: Yes.
Jonathan: Under whichair could get through
joe: Yes.
Jonathan: Evaporationhappen and so on. But again, the comic book writers are not scientists. We’rein the 21st century. We’re 25 years into century.
It’s time to level up and let the nerds come out to play andmake the comics make sense, which I think would bring [00:42:00]in whole group of readers because a lot of people dismiss comics foolishly assaying that they’re not literature, they’re not good, but they are, they’rereally
geo: Absolutely.
Jonathan: if, youcould use comics as a way to teach stem, STEM
joe: I agree.
geo: Definitely
Jonathan: much,there’s a lot of good science there.
But there’s also what if science and what if science is whatdrives science forward?
joe: We talk aboutzombies. That was so that how I got into, I always wanted to do science,education and outreach. And I realized a lot of adults don’t know anythingabout science. And I had a friend who was doing these art and science talks,and he approached me with this idea and he said, oh, I’m doing these talks, butno one shows up to hear about the science lectures.
And I was like, oh. So this was some years ago. And it’s how Idiscovered your view because I was I said I’m a big zombie fan and that’s kindsof zombies and how it works. So I started reading everyone at, had the zombiestuff and kind of where they’re at. Where’s the literature at? All the [00:43:00] movies.
And so I pitched to my friend, I said, Hey, we should do theart and science to science of zombies. And he looks at me and who, and he ofthe sciences also, he goes, but no one does research on zombies.
geo: I go, I know,but if you want people to show up, then
joe: talk aboutsomething that’s super fun and then we’ll sneak science in on em.
And I’m a cell biologist, so we’ll do all cell biology and kindof talk. And it was, we filled this art gallery up with people. It was standingroom only. And he was like, wow, this really worked. And so now as he does it Ithink he’s stopped or taking a pause, but every time he does it, he has somelittle hook like that now.
And I’m like, yeah, let’s keeping going. And so that was then,how we arrived to this podcast was at that idea, but that was the start of it.Zombies was the the fun and figuring out how you would get the infection eventand then what would happen after that. In fast zombies.
nick: you love fastzombies.
Jonathan: yeah. In mydead at night series, I worked with scientists to come up with a parasitedriven one. Toxic plasma, green jewel wasp, whole bunch of other
And
joe: sometimes[00:44:00]
geo: you,
Jonathan: You can geta certain distance toward doability, toward, actual rea realizing it for some,if you talk to the right scientist and get them to really, put their mind toit, you get a lot further and closer to it than is comfortable sometimes.
But you’re talking
geo: right
Jonathan: the artgallery thing here in San Diego. We have the Fleet Center, which is a sciencecenter attached to the the astronomy center. And I was on a panel there. Theyhad also been trying to do panels and nobody was showing up to them. So becauseComic-Con is in San Diego, they decided to start bringing in comics people totalk to scientists.
The very first panel where I met the scientist I mentionedearlier, Dr. Ronald Coleman. It was Kevin Eastman, the artist who co-createdthe Ninja Turtles and myself. We were comic creators. And then the two, therewas a var Virologist who’s sadly named, I’m blanking on Nancy something, Ican’t remember her last name.
And Ronald Coleman, who’s, said a stem cell scientist. And wewere asking them questions and they were, they they were asking us questions.The [00:45:00] audience was asking questions.Kevin, the artist from Ninja Turtles, he wa he was like, goo or whatever. So wejust, we need, we needed a thing.
We just call it that. That’s total there. Or my V wars thing, Iwanted it to be a genetic disorder that was latent. And, as melting polar rice,softened permafrost, all diseases were. And I, that’s an idea I had before thatactually started happening, by
geo: Oh boy.
Jonathan: Before wegot to the popular press I subscribed to some science newsletters and I read anarticle back in 2010 about melting rice, releasing old bacteria and possiblyviruses.
And I’m like. That’s scary as hell. Let me write a book,
geo: right?
Jonathan: not the TVwars,
geo: Yeah.
Jonathan: But
joe: yeah. Yeah.
Jonathan: thezombies, the fun thing about zombies is, each individual thing it does, can beexplained by nature. Like the fact that it has a lower metabolism be, so itdoesn’t rot as much. There are animals, the ground squirrel the, I forget thename of the frog, that, that freezes solid every year and then falls, withoutthe tissue damage because of the way [00:46:00]the sugars,
That exists.
The if the motor cortex was working. Or even on a minimallevel, the zombie could walk, bite, chew, swallow. Without the motor of cortex,it couldn’t, unless there’s respiration, a zombie couldn’t moan. And we knowzombies moan. You can make an argument that zombies are not dead, they’re notalive, they’re living dead.
A third state of existence based on a great a rate ofmetabolism so greatly reduced that they appear dead to the point where theirouter tissues become necrotic, but they’re still not actually dead.
joe: It’s
geo: yeah, I hadthought
joe: In my own head andwe’re getting off, I gonna get back to skin ’cause we’re gonna have to closethe episode a little bit.
But yeah I had a dual infection event. One of the mind, butalso, people forget about the second brain and that’s our gut, which is justfilled with bacteria.
So as our control systems, entropy starts to take over, thenthat would be your driving force. And those bacteria then would have somepreservation of [00:47:00] self. Especially ifthe brain was now infected by something else, it might not have as tight ofcontrol over the system, so you can then have this dual function.
That also explains why in movies you have this, not everyone’sinfected by a splatter of blood or something like that, because you need bothparts to become infected. And so you could
geo: be primed.
joe: And then onceyou’re primed and maybe you have a death event,
geo: and now
joe: the brain parasitecan take over, and then the gut ones can now go, oh, you know what?
There’s no more control. Everything’s leaky, leaky gutsyndrome. We
geo: can get inthere, we can now invade.
joe: And we now we canhave this kind of two brain system in control. And hence why, your movementsare shambling and things like that. Not necessarily because your coronation isbad, but because you your, you have two.
Competing entities in inside one, one body. But
geo: That’s
nick: Anotherepisode, another rabbit
geo: hole.
joe: But
Jonathan: That one
nick: you’re in,
joe: you’re in,
nick: so I do wanna,
geo: I’m gonna touchon my
joe: [00:48:00] fun fact list. I promise a list and I’dlike to deliver,
geo: but
nick: There’s awebsite
joe: maybe you’refamiliar with it. I just learned about it. It’s called bio numbers.
geo: and it’s this
joe: fun website, atleast I think it’s
geo: fun where
nick: you
joe: search fordifferent topics and it will give you these kind of biology relevant numbers.
And so how many proteins are inside of a cell or
nick: how,
geo: so
joe: I put in, aboutskin and then it has the paper reference, which then I clicked on links becausethat’s what I do. And
nick: So it was just
geo: fun. Things
joe: and it saved mesome time on this weight
geo: of skin.
joe: On average isabout nine pounds or 4.1 kilograms for the folks who wanna go to metric.
The
nick: number of
joe: skin cells, about1 billion on average number of bacteria in skin, about 1 trillion. So that’s alot of bacteria, which we didn’t even talk about. The skin kind of, how wouldbend skin the bacterial that keeps that, that
geo: are very
joe: and beneficial?How are they living?
How are they getting along?
nick: Do you think hehas to [00:49:00] moisturize?
geo: when he gets
joe: fungal infection,like ringworm underneath those
geo: rocks. Yeah.What kind of lotion does he use?
nick: foot, athlete’sfoot there?
Jonathan: a story.Somebody needs to write that story.
nick: Yeah. I wouldjust assume the human torch is just Hey, I’ll get that. Hold on.
geo: 90% of the humanbody
joe: covered in hair. Ididn’t realize that, but that was
geo: how much? 90%.90%.
nick: Is that it?Density of
joe: procars, soprocars are bacteria. So these are organisms without a nucleus versuseukaryotes, which we are ourselves are eukaryotic.
The density of procars in the skin of humans. And this is cellsper centimeter squared. It’s about a thousand to 10,000 and you’re growing andunder your arm, it’s about a million. Per centimeter, per centimeter squared,or that’s about 0.78 inches squared for those who think in inches.
So that was and
geo: and this allcame from that one website,
joe: website. The
geo: term of
joe: in your entireepidermis is about 26 to [00:50:00] 27 days. Soyou got, so yeah, so you,
nick: it’s
geo: oh, all that,
nick: that dried dead
joe: skin you’regenerating, that’s you’re danner.
So that’s another for Ben. How’s he dealing with
nick: I thought itwould just be rock dust. No, that’s
geo: to us. That’s
Jonathan: that when,I wish that when skin generated, it would take scars away. ’cause I got
geo: yeah. So
joe: that was those aresome fun. And then I, the concentration on microbes in human gut, I just hadgot, I, that one was there and that’s in the tens of billions of cells and,number of human cells.
’cause it, this was something I always think about are we morebacteria than than human? But the number of total number of human cells in yourbody is about 10 to 30 trillion. So you’re, so you got about hundreds ofbillions of. Bacteria on you, in you, but you still are a little more human.
Just,
nick: Slightly morehuman than bacteria.
geo: Yeah.
nick: I don’t,
Jonathan: quitehuman. But
joe: yeah, that’sright.
geo: So there you go.There’s
Jonathan: I thinkthey’re more bacteria,
joe: so those are somefun, just some fun skin facts and others,
geo: But yeah, bio
joe: I can,
Jonathan: Oh, I’mdefinitely gonna be hitting that. I wrote [00:51:00]it down.
joe: yeah. Yeah.
geo: It’s a fun,
joe: and when I learnedof it, I was in a lecture and someone had these cool numbers and I went, I waslike, how do you get these, did you just guess at this stuff?
And they were like, no, there’s this website, bio numbers. Andthe first thing I did when I got back to my office pile numbers,
Jonathan: I love thatthere is nerd porn for scientists too.
nick: it exists.
joe: Like we, we keepit secret. It’s our
nick: own little
Jonathan: Like nerdporn for writers is the TV troops website. If you ever been to TV troops,
geo: oh,
Jonathan: that, allof the tropes of everything and a
joe: in there.
nick: Interesting.
joe: Yeah.
Jonathan: days on it.I,
joe: Wow.
Jonathan: So much ofmy stuff’s on there and I, somebody said, oh, you’re on, I saw you on TV trope.
I’m like. TV tropes when there’s a whole bunch of my stuff andthey’re breaking witch tropes and which variations of tropes are used and soon. But I love the, that’s fun. I gotta grab that because, sometimes when ascientist in a story wants to, as Bob, that sort of thing when they’re infodumpy moment, you do want your details.
My science guy I normally go to, he [00:52:00]actually does work a day job. But so I have to catch him when he’s available.
geo: Yeah,
joe: you go. You canhave some numbers to throw out there
geo: and the paperreferences so
joe: you can look it upand see where to get the numbers. ’cause it is it was interesting. So there wasa lot of cool things in there, but yeah.
There you go. Yeah. So I
Jonathan: I knowwe’ve just about run outta time, but is there one, was there another topic onskin that we need to go back to that we didn’t cover?
geo: I
joe: do you guys,unless
geo: you havesomething
joe: you want to do,
nick: please. I havea whole list of
Jonathan: the
geo: We have another,yeah.
Jonathan: Yeah. Youmentioned the human torch
joe: Yep.
nick: yep.
Jonathan: how thehell does he not dehydrate? Like
joe: That’s right.
geo: So we’ll have,
joe: we’re gonna do anepisode on all the Fantastic Fours.
Jonathan: Okay.
joe: have,
geo: we actually
joe: are gonna have aDr. David Pincus from University of Chicago on for that episode. And so hejoined us for actually the permafrost episode,
geo: Was
nick: which was
joe: of the funniest
geo: episodes.
joe: yeah he kind ofstudies, the impact of environmental changes on organisms short term and longterm.
And one of the things [00:53:00]is heat stress and heat shock. So I think it, I
geo: so that’ll be agreat question for him.
joe: it would be. Yeah.We’ll pose that to
geo: him.
Jonathan: Ice Man.Ice Man
nick: Iceman. Yeah,that’s
joe: right now,
geo: Man. Oh yeah.
joe: Yes. So how doeshe live in that ice state? That’s a whole nother, that’s another episode Ithink.
nick: And movingthose arms with ice on him.
joe: without cracking.Yes.
geo: How’s he stayflexible?
Jonathan: I have, Ijust have this idea that somewhere there’s a DARPA lab where a couple of guysare trying to figure out how to make the sup, make the Fantastic Four
nick: Right.
joe: Yes.
nick: I’m in
geo: Cosmic Rays
joe: is not the answer.I’m gonna go right there.
geo: That’s,
nick: We can’t rollthat out yet, Joe. I will.
Jonathan: actually,one of the funny things is guys have seen Night of Living Dead, right? The
joe: yes.
nick: Yes, of course.
Jonathan: So one, oneof the conceits there is that the major theory in the first film is thatradiation from returning space probe. George Romero was a huge fan of theFantastic Four, and that was his nod to the
joe: interesting. Wow.
Jonathan: though onespace probe returning does not explain global, I [00:54:00]busted George a lot on this because,
geo: Neither livingDead. Was
joe: it truly global orwas it local? Just in Western Pennsylvania, because that was that clear
Jonathan: wanted itto be global because people were talking about it in Washington and other
joe: Okay. Yeah. Imight’ve been on the radio. Yep.
Jonathan: clearlywas, but the first one, he was the first one he actually expected it to be,defeated.
It was never intent to be a series, but he immediately, decidedto go further with it. His next film actually explored another aspect of it,the Crazies,
nick: Oh yeah. Of
joe: the
geo: I love thecrazies.
Jonathan: rage
joe: Yeah. That’sright.
Jonathan: That wewouldn’t have 28 weeks, 28 days
joe: That’s right. No,that’s exactly right.
Jonathan: genres,
joe: Yes. The crazieswas it. Yeah. Yeah. But
Jonathan: but Iactually wrote dead of Night because I wanted to as a, like a thank you note toGeorge Romero, how he and I became friends.
Actually, he read the book and loved it. We became friends. Wedid an anthology together. But I couldn’t stand that. The science made no sensein the book, in the movie. It me, 10 years old, it bugged me.
geo: right? Yeah.
Jonathan: The thing,the thing, his skin the [00:55:00] Hulk, hismass Reed Richards, every bodily function when he’s stretching.
joe: right. We have,we’re gonna have a MD on to Maria do at Northwestern University is gonna be onthat episode. So yeah, we’re gonna have, we’re gonna get into a little bit morescience. So the first. Was it Sue, we had a comic critic in review to open up theseries and now we’ve, we have you, Jonathan, on skin and yeah.
Then we have a couple scientists and a MD coming in to, toround out the fences of force. Yeah. So we’ll
Jonathan: befollowing these episodes. This is speaking to my nerdvana
geo: Yeah.
joe: yeah. No
geo: Science forweirdos.
joe: Science forweirdos is what someone told me. We, someone, we were out and someone said, oh,
geo: you do that
joe: And they go, yeah.It’s like we, I’ve been listening to it, it’s like science for weirdos andthat’s my thing, and
nick: I’m like,
joe: oh, I kinda likethat.
geo: It’s
nick: I
Jonathan: I, I thinkthat is dead on. Yeah. That’s, yeah.
geo: yeah. It’s beenjust
joe: a greatconversation
nick: thank you somuch for joining us.
geo: Go ahead and [00:56:00] plugs
joe: anything? You havesome new stuff coming out. I know for sure. So it’s,
Jonathan: yeah, I gotI, I’m, I got a lot of stuff going. I always have a lot of stuff coming out. Iwrote
geo: I saw your lastpost that you were outta
Jonathan: novel everythree minutes. Yeah.
joe: it said
geo: your brain wasoutta words.
nick: Yeah.
Jonathan: was, butI’ve already started the next novel.
nick: Novel,
joe: Congratulations.That’s awesome. Your inspiration to us young novelists
Jonathan: am I have agraphic novel coming out in June Joe Ledger and Violin Hearts and Minds, whichis a comic original story. Ba is set in my Joe Ledger world. Crystal lake isputting that out. And last year I had a really fun one was Godzilla versusKullu Comic.
geo: Oh, wow.
joe: Yep.
Jonathan: Comic orcome on games. But next up for me is the next Necro tech book deep Space Book,crafting Horror.
And we are in discussions with an anime company in Japan
joe: Cool.
Jonathan: based onthat series. Giant Me, mech Robots that Are Shape-Shifting piloted by the Ghostof Dead Pilots.
nick: Oh, damn.
joe: Yeah.
geo: Wow.
Jonathan: [00:57:00] the book that I just finished the otherday was the third in that series.
joe: That’s cool.
Jonathan: I love thefact I’m leaning more and more into science fiction these days.
I’ve got two different science fiction series running now. I.And it’s fun because, and this is one little thing I wanna just throw in beforeI skedaddle, is that one of the reasons I love working with scientists, talkingto experts in various fields for my books, there’s an old calm man saying, usenine truths to sell one lie that really applies great to any kind of fiction.
Because if you can build your fiction on a structure ofplausibility, it makes it so much easier for suspension of disbelief and alsothe trust when they know you’re stepping off that the top of that scaffold intofiction, they know that you’ve done your homework. So the fiction is gonna be areasonable extension of the non of the nonfiction, and they’ll go with you forthat.
But if you’re just making shit up so that you can tell ascience fiction story, there’s no structural basis to it, you’re only going toget the people who don’t know science. And that’s an increasingly small [00:58:00] number, I hope, because there’s a lot ofanti-science going on right now.
geo: right.
Jonathan: But
nick: Fingers
Jonathan: yourfingers crossed there are still people who want it to believe in it. They wantto believe that we can have superheroes. They want to believe that people cando this, that people will become stronger, that maybe somehow we’ll be able tosurvive a polluted planet and get wise enough to fix the planet.
So I love doing that. I love working with scientists. It’s fun.It’s so much fun for me to be on a podcast with people who understand scienceuntil I, that, that
joe: Thank
nick: you
geo: coming on andus. Yeah,
nick: What,
joe: Nick and Jordan
Jonathan: Nerds getit by extension. I’m not a scientist either, but all my science addictedfriends, we all love the fact that’s, that there’s real scientists out there
geo: right?
Jonathan: manyscientists are actually in the nerd
joe: Yeah.
nick: Oh, a hundred
joe: And I
geo: want,
joe: Jonathan, youdidn’t mention it, but we have some, I’m sure there’s some writer friends thatlisten, but you do a great masterclass series and so on different topics in thewriting, both [00:59:00] writing the art ofwriting, but also the business side of writing.
And, I’ve attended several
geo: of them
Jonathan: and they’refundraisers.
nick: And
joe: They’re alsofundraisers, right? The money goes to the no kill shelter or the
Jonathan: kill animalshelters, women’s shelters, homeless shelters. And these are programs thatprovide meals for children in, areas where they’re not getting it, family don’tenough income and 50 cents can buy a whole meal. I do a hundred percent of themoney from my workshops goes there.
It does a lot of good. And also, I hope people can use materialto get into the writing business because it’s more fun when there are more kidsin the playground.
nick: Definitely.
joe: No, so check itout, you writers out there,
nick: One lastquestion for you, if you don’t mind. Who is your favorite? Unbreakable skincharacter.
geo: Oh.
joe: oh,
geo: Oh, the
Jonathan: Oh, theHulk. I’m sorry.
geo: Yeah.
Jonathan: Sorry. Thething has always been my favorite unbreakable character because of the factthat he’s the hu the Hulk I liked, but the Hulk was Jekyll and Hyde with,dipped and green. The, it’s that, but the thing [01:00:00]he was always leaning into his humanism, An empathetic character and empath,when you have a character who looks like basically a big rock monster, butempathy is his trues super strength, man.
I gotta love a character like
nick: I’m so glad wehave you on this episode, because he is your favorite,
Jonathan: yeah. Andvery first comic I ever bought has him on the cover of it,
joe: Yeah.
Jonathan: 4 66.Believe that’s 1967. Good lord.
geo: That’s it.
joe: Awesome. Thanksagain for joining us. It was a lot of fun. And yeah, just a lot of cool nerdingout in pop culture,
nick: very much
Jonathan: and thanksfor inviting me on too. I had a lot of fun. I wish I had a little time rightnow, but I hope you guys will invite me back ’cause I’ll
joe: I will do. Yeah,no, definitely. No you already brought up several topics that we will have tohave you on now for, and, you know
nick: wait, are yougonna be the fourth rabbit in the hole?
joe: right.
Jonathan: And also I,with one of my upcoming classes, we haven’t set the date yet, but my, mymolecular biologist friend is going [01:01:00]to co-teach a class with me on working with
joe: Cool. That’d beawesome.
geo: That’s
Jonathan: be a lot offun too, ’cause a lot of writers don’t know how to ask the right questions andthey don’t know how to follow it down that rabbit hole into.
A plausible story and having a scientist on there would be fun.And if I’ll give you a free pass of that one, Joe, so you can join theconversation
joe: be fun. Yeah, no,
geo: and also theother way too, scientists don’t always know how to translate. That’s right.Their science communication is big,
joe: right?
That’s right. Yeah. And
geo: so they can use
A writer or they can use someone that the, the scientist just
joe: did a piece andthey, I was interviewed for, it was oh, it was like speculative fiction in, Howspeculative fiction and bench science kind of merge. And so they
Jonathan: that arecent
joe: of us.
It was, it came out last month. I can send you a link to it.Yeah, it was a fun, it was a few of us in it.
Jonathan: get thatand read it. I need to renew my subscription to the Scientist
joe: yeah. Yeah, no, itwas a fun article and had a couple quotes in there. So I was happy that [01:02:00] something came outta my interview.
Jonathan: I might betapping some information too. Getting a walk on in something.
geo: anytime, man,anytime I’ve helped
joe: other people ortried to help. ’cause sometimes people, you’re right they call and then they’relike, I wanna do this thing with this equipment. And I’m like, you can’t dothat thing with that equipment. Or there’s practical reasons why you won’t getthe image you think you’ll get, it’ll charge, it’ll look bad.
geo: And they go
joe: I need this is ifI can’t do it with that piece of equipment then my story fails. And I’m like
geo: you need,
Jonathan: story
nick: I’m like, weneed
geo: to, let’s have alonger conversation
joe: and figure thisout. And and some I, we did, it was like, you need this piece of equipment. Butthey’re like, but that’s not in that room.
And I’m like you need to have this scene happen in this roomnow because, so yeah.
Jonathan: Yeah. I’veactually had to repl whole novels because I talked to a scientist and found outthat my assumption, like writers, we have a lot of information in our head.Doesn’t mean we’re experts on it, but it’s enough to get us into trouble orhopefully to ask the right questions.
And I had this really great idea for something and I asked to acouple people who were into [01:03:00] nuclearscience, power plants and so on. My idea made no sense. It was laughably naive.I was like, oh shit. Glad I didn’t write the book. ’cause my editor didn’t knowit was a bad idea
Working with scientists, big important thing.
geo: Yeah, no.
joe: And experts andthings like that. No, it’s awesome.
geo: I’m
Jonathan: I’m theexpert that a lot of my friends tap for
geo: Martial arts.
nick: know. Yeah. I
joe: I was that’sawesome. I have a a friend, I don’t know if he joined the last one, I told himhe should get on, but I know he has a lot of action and fighting scenes and hedid wrestling and jiujitsu, so I was like, oh, you should jump on, becauseJonathan, he’s, that’s his background, especially writing those scenes andgetting it across.
Jonathan: Years now.
joe: yeah. Yeah.
geo: Cool. I
joe: know you need torun and so
Jonathan: stuff, sothanks. This guy, guys. I can hang with you
geo: I
nick: know. Yeah. I’mlike, Hey,
joe: That’s why I’mlike, Hey,
Jonathan: I will behappy to come back and and nerd out with you guys again.
nick: Absolutely.Anytime. Thank you.
geo: Thank you. Havea good night. Cheers.
nick: Thank you.
Jonathan: bye.
geo: Bye.
joe: you have me, Joe.
geo: We got Nick. Wegot
joe: Nick, we’ve got
geo: Georgia.
Georgia,
joe: and we’ve
nick: gone down some[01:04:00]
geo: holes,
joe: some tough skin
nick: tough skin.
joe: I dunno.
nick: Bye-bye.
joe: Hey, you stay safeout there. Stay strong.

Transcript:

Transcript: Fantastic 4 series: Episode 37: Sue Storm Richards: Invisibility

Click link to listen or search Rabbit Hole of Research where you find your other podcasts:
EP37: Sue Storm and Invisibility* What does it take—biologically—for a human to vanish? Guest: Writer and cultural critic Nick Ulanowski.

Transcript:

joe: [00:00:00] Hey, welcome back to the Rabbit Hole ofResearch down here in the basement studio. As
nick: who’s talking?I can’t tell. I hear a voice, but I don’t see anyone Stop it.
joe: Stop it. Lemme getmy intro
geo: I can’t seeanything
joe: guys now doingthis thing here
nick: where we
joe: you just starttalking over me. Come on. Yeah, we are going to go over the Fantastic Four andso there’s four members and so we’re gonna do four episodes and today we’regonna be talking about the Invisible Woman.
Sue Storm,
geo: And ininvisibility in general,
joe: invisibility inother characters who kind of factor in there. So yeah. We do have a guestjoining us on the Zooms. So you wanna introduce yourself?
nick_u: I’m NickRomanowski. I’m the author of MasterCard at The Comic Shop. It’s a horror novelabout a comic shop owner, his friends are, and his friends and regularcustomers, and a mask toxic fan, killing them off at the chainsaw. I’ve alsowritten comic book reviews for CBR, formerly known as [00:01:00]comic book resources.
However, I’m now writing comic book reviews and reporting oncomic book news on Substack at starving author.substack.com.
joe: Yep. And we’llthrow that in the show notes so you guys can find that and go check out Nickand stuff. He writes about, he does great reviews, so I’ve been reading themand. My college comic knowledge has improved greatly. So it
geo: a long ways togo, but
joe: I’m not saying I’mat the the pinnacle yet, but,
nick: Thanks forjoining us, Nick.
joe: Yeah. Yep. Yep. Soyou wanna jump in? Do this
nick: Yeah. You got alist for us, Joe?
joe: I’m gonna do I’mgonna do it a description. I’ve been doing descriptions, like descriptionheavy, so I’m gonna go
geo: can
joe: a littledescription
geo: no lists.
joe: have lists. Ialways have lists.
You’re just not gonna get
geo: I’m not sure whyyou’re
joe: I’m not sure whyyou’re, we’re gonna get into
geo: between list
joe: I kind of wannatalk about, introduce the Fantastic four. Oh, okay. Maybe some people don’tknow who the Fantastic Four are.
nick: Yes. Who arethe Fantastic
geo: to say I wasn’tthat interested until I saw Pedro [00:02:00]Pascal gonna be in the movie. Now I’m really interested.
nick: George waslike, I have a crush on Pedro.
joe: Yeah. There you
nick: go.
geo: So
nick: anyway yeah,the
joe: Fantastic Four,they’re a fictional superhero team. They were created by Stanley and JackKirby. They first appeared in Fantastic Four, number one in 1961. For MarvelComics and they were Marvel’s first superhero team of the modern era and kindof established a more human, flawed and family driven style that defined Marvelstorytelling.
nick: AKA, the firstfamily,
joe: AKA,
nick: the firstfamily.
joe: And there’s fourmembers, so I’ll go over their powers. Like I said, we’re gonna have an episodeon each Reed Richards, Mr. Fantastic. He can stretch his body, compress,reshape. He’s a brilliant scientist, dabbles in engineering and, exploring theboundaries of science In the multiverse we have Johnny Storm, human Torch.
He his pyro Canis so he can send his body ablaze fly Projectfire [00:03:00] And his background, he’s Sue’syounger brother, cocky, impulsive. Often comic relief.
nick: And
joe: we have Ben Grime.He’s the thing. And he has supernatural strength and near and vulnerableorange, rocky skin. He is Reed’s best friend, a former astronaut test pilot,has to deal with the pain of his transformation.
He’s the only one that became disfigured in all this. And thenthe woman of the hour is Susan Storm, the Invisible woman. Her power isinvisibility and she can force field generation background. She was initiallyportrayed as a team’s heart and emotional center, but later developed into atactical powerhouse.
She’s a second in command and her powers are among the mostversatile and potentially the most powerful in the Marvel universe. So that’sthe four. And just their origin story. ’cause every good comic story has anorigin story because they took an unauthorized space mission. To study cosmicrays.
Yeah, I’m [00:04:00] always,
geo: And
joe: the minute you sayunauthorized, something bad’s gonna happen. All four who are exposed to intenseradiation, but instead of dying their body’s mutated, giving each member thepowers that we just discussed when they’re based on their personalities. So readintelligent, flexible, mentally flexible sue, social invisible literal kind ofinvisibility.
Johnny Hotheaded, he became he,
geo: what was that?
joe: I don’t know.
nick: think that camefrom Joe, probably he became
joe: his fire powersand then tough exterior. Literally the thing with the rocky exterior. So Ithink I’ll stop there and dive in. We can talk we have the comic itself and therole that Sue plays, but then we have the biology of how one.
Might get or become invisible.
nick: So it ispossible.
geo: Yeah. What’s theplausibility of
joe: It’s a significantamount of handwaving.
geo: How many bigMacs would you have to eat to become invisible?
joe: It’s swing back tohow[00:05:00]
geo: although youprobably, it goes the other way, right?
joe: You would, no youneed to to become invisible.
And there are animals that, that have some transparency or nearinvisibly mostly marine organisms, like jellyfish x-ray fish,
nick: They don’t turntransparent. They are transparent. They are
joe: exactly right. Soyou have to
geo: Like I was gonnasay, like in a certain situation, they become more transparent.
joe: They, no, they’realways transparent, but you have to,
nick: to get there,you’re gotta say, we have something.
geo: there are somebiology
joe: Yeah, that’sright. Okay. And in cephalopods, cuddle fish, octopuses, squids, they cancamouflage, they have mechanisms to actually blend in.
And so they have, on the fly almost so not invisible onceagain, have to manipulate their.
nick: whole body.
Body
joe: to right tochange, so
nick_u: do you mindif I add a little something to your synopsis
joe: Yeah. That’s I,yes, please.
nick_u: Absolutely. Ithink that it should also be noted that, there’s a superhero. The super genreis very versatile a lot of ways, and [00:06:00]the Fantastic Four often used to tell more science fiction centered stories,necessarily hero teams.
I think that’s important to,
joe: Yeah
nick: I do feel likethey also have a little bit more human aspects to them. There’s more dramabetween the four members. Of themselves,
joe: Yeah.
nick_u: AlthoughMarvel’s whole thing in the sixties was that they were, oh, DC at the time, allthe superheroes were Godlike and Marvel came in we’re gonna give real, we’regonna establish real people with real problems, with flaw, with character flawsthat DC didn’t have at the time. And now that’s a lot more common in superherostories, but at the time it was a lot less prevalent.
And I would say the X-Men have probably actually have even more
nick: oh, a hundredpercent. Yeah.
nick_u: But yeah.
geo: and the factthey’re a family too. That’s,
nick: Yeah.
joe: Yeah, no, I thinkthat’s the storytelling elements in there and that’s a good point you madeabout being more sci-fi than just a typical action comic was that one of thefirst [00:07:00] kind of
nick: Sci-fi
joe: Of
nick_u: There was alot of weird stuff in the golden Age, but certainly, since in the sixties itwas definitely known for being more sci-fi.
joe: Yeah, definitely.And, getting their powers. That was
nick: Definitely. And
geo: have a question
It’s the mom and dad,
nick: right?
joe: No, it’s justhusband, wife, a younger brother of Sue, and then best friend of
geo: So no kids. No
joe: No kids.
nick: No, not yet.Okay. They come later down the line. Okay. Oh,
geo: you’re spoilingit.
nick: I am sorry thatyou are not caught up on your comic books.
geo: actually,anything you say today will spoil
joe: it. Did
nick: the
joe: the
and half powers,
nick: I believe bothof them do correct. Nick?
nick_u: Yeah, Ibelieve so. Yeah.
nick: They have twokids. Because
geo: when you werefirst talking about it I automatically was picturing the Incredibles.
joe: The Incredibles.Yeah. No, I think that’s a
geo: And I was likebut then I was thinking, oh, that’s interesting, because their kids were reallyyoung but the, [00:08:00] these weren’t kids.
These were like the
nick: Okay.
joe: Going on anunauthorized space journey.
geo: Got it.
nick: But you’re
joe: right, theIncredibles, like when you watch it, the styling of the Incredibles.
Probably mid, mid modern and 60 esque, and I think it was adefinite kind of, nod to the Fantastic four in their setup.
nick_u: It definitelywas. There’s people who say that there can’t be a fan, a good, fantastic horrormovie, and that’s absolutely not true. Look at The Incredibles,
joe: yeah.
nick: A hundredpercent.
joe: That’s right.Which is, yeah, hopefully in the new movie I do
nick: have high hopesfor it, but I really hence why we’re doing this series. Yeah. I have high hopesfor this. And I think
geo: you always haveto kinda keep your expectations like moderate
joe: Some of that,
nick: that,
geo: sometimes youlike hype yourself, Yeah.
Out
nick: of
geo: enjoyingsomething. Oh, yeah. Do you know what I mean? I
joe: mean?
I think it also with the MCU, and this goes to the movie that’scoming out and their story, their general, when they stick to their characterbuilding and they [00:09:00] have a compellingvillain. They have compelling protagonists, heroes, and they complete thosestories. I think those are the best MCU movies. I think it gets complicatedwhen they try to weave in other storylines and then they dilute
geo: Oh, we’replanning on making that movie in five years and we wanna make a tie in, solet’s just throw this random character.
And it’s
nick: but with itbeing Marvel’s first family, I feel like they are going to be sticking more tothe story building of the characters.
joe: Yeah. Andintroducing Doom. I know, right? So that’s, that was one of their majorvillains besides, and the Silver Surfer Galacto, like you, you see these otherstorylines are gonna come in, but you just can’t throw it all in one movie and,
nick_u: Yeah. AndDOMA is a very compelling character ’cause he believes he’s right, all thebest, all believe that they’re a good guy in some way,
geo: and then I thinkit’s interesting, like you said, that it’s a brother and a
nick: sister,
joe: so Yes.
geo: Wanda, [00:10:00] right?
joe: And her brother,
nick: Paid
geo: maybe that Ijust, is there very many brother and sister
nick: Superhero,teens?
joe: Yes. I think thereare a few.
nick: Yeah,
joe: You’re right thatthey, yeah,
geo: I don’t know.
I just,
joe: Yeah.
nick_u: Yeah, that, Ican’t think of too many other than
nick: Yeah.
joe: It’s yeah, thereare, but
nick: We’ll throw itin the footnotes. Yeah.
joe: We’ll get in theshow notes there. We’ll look at that. We’ll
geo: I think thatautomatically becomes an interesting dynamic
joe: Yeah. You, I wouldimagine that in the X-Men kind of storyline, there would be more siblinginteractions.
’cause if one sibling got. Mutant power is you wouldpotentially, there’s high potential that the other sibling would also have somelevel of power,
nick: Scott Summershas a brother that also has, yeah. Superpower or is also a mutant
joe: Reen and sabertooth. They’re brothers technically, yeah. Yeah.
geo: So you saidthat, and I’m sorry, are already forgot her name.
Is it[00:11:00]
nick: Sue.
joe: Sue. Sue Susan.
geo: You said she wassecond in command? Second in command.
joe: Second in command
nick: who’s Reed?
joe: Reed?
geo: and
joe: the husband.
geo: Okay. Is herhusband.
nick: husband.
joe: Mr. Fantastic.We’ll talk all about him in his own episode.
geo: Yeah. Yeah. Idon’t, eh, we can wait on him, but okay.
joe: Yeah, you get intothat also with Sue being, she’s the woman of the team and she has invisibilityand Nick touched on like the, some of the sixties themes, but one just womenempowerment and that was part of her story arc, and she started out. Limited inher powers
nick_u: that soundsright. Yeah
joe: yeah. They regaher
geo: do you thinkthat she was limited in her powers or she just held back because she was awoman
joe: Prior the story inthe comics, she was, she had limited powers. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
geo: then she wasable through something that
nick: happened,
joe: all comic books.
They, yeah. New authors, new writers.
geo: they go to, didthey go on another unauthorized trip?
joe: No, I don’t thinkthey did. I think it was just, that, that they had a storyline gets clipped andthey [00:12:00] had, but they enhanced theirpowers with that, the force field. So instead of just being invisible, she thencould cast these, she did some of that, but she could do it much more extreme.
Like she could build the force field inside of someone andexplode ’em essentially. You could just, wow. Only think about, and then shecould control the entire visible white spectrum. So not just her own body, butshe could start to manipulate, make weapons, make, it was yeah.
So she had this, her voice got stronger too in thestorytelling. But also that’s that idea that women are invisible and then, theygo to this kind of position of power
geo: and some,
joe: yeah. Yeah. Yeah.And I think
geo: in some ways,women’s power can be their invisibility.
Because you just ignore, like you just disregard.
And then that’s when the person has
Sneaks up on you with their great power.
nick: is that whywomen make great spies? Exactly.
geo: I think that’sexactly right.
nick: real andfictional. Yeah,
geo: because you
nick: black widow, [00:13:00] that whole operation is females that are,yeah. I think that’s assassin essence.
joe: That’s right.
Right.
nick_u: I think onthis note it we should acknowledge Ms. Marvel, which later became captain, backin the seventies I believe, that was actually pretty controversial that hername was Ms. Marvel. ’cause it was viewed as being very feminist. And I get alot of angry letters about that.
nick: Yeah.
joe: Yeah. Yeah, andeven in the comic world, there’s some, a lot of progressive storytelling.
We highlight the X-Men, they’re probably the most allegory ofcivil rights, but I think they, Stan and Jack, they really weaved in these kindof social issues through their storytelling. So and
geo: I have animportant question. So when she would turn invisible her suit, her super suitwould also turn
joe: What’s that?
nick: That’s
geo: do they everexplain that? Except they did in the
nick: read, readcreated a, what was it? Unstable fabric?
joe: Yeah. I forgetwhat yeah.
nick: Could adapt totheir powers, which is why.
Her clothes go invisible with her, but later on she is able to [00:14:00] change all of her clothes. Invisible aswell as other people.
joe: That’s right.That’s
geo: can change otherpeople to
joe: could make otherfolks
Yeah.
nick: Okay. If she’son a mission with Reed or they’re out somewhere,
joe: What
nick: I was readingsomething recently and she had both her and Reid go invisible.
geo: that’s handy.
joe: So then I thinkher power essentially is that she can bend light around her body. So inmatching the index or refractive index. Of what her surroundings. So that’s theway to power. And then she can extend that
nick: to someone
joe: to cover otherpeople. And Ben so you’re projecting some sort of, you’re projecting a field.
geo: So is there anyplausibility for to have clothing that would go invisible?
joe: go invisible
geo: You know what Imean? Because there’s like probably no, like a person probably can’t goinvisible. But can clothing go
joe: You can. I meanyou, so there are technologies now where using materials that you can bend thelight and essentially reflect what’s [00:15:00]behind and to front.
So that, as you look at it a couple ways, it could be thematerial, but also gonna be cameras. If you have cameras set up, you then cancreate a projection that would fool you and have you look at that. So thosetechnologies do exist, but they’re materials or equipment, they’re not,
geo: they seemcumbersome.
joe: Yeah.
Lot of, there are folks who characters who go invisible thathave. Potentially tiger from the Thundercats he has the belt and that’s whatgives him his invisibility. And generates the field, if you think of it thatway. Not an innate biological phenomenon.
nick_u: Do you knowoffhand when Susan Storm got more powers? Was that in Jonathan Hickman’s run?Because I know that’s when, that’s the, those are some of the very belovedmodern fantastic four
joe: yeah. I don’t knowthe exact
geo: Who was
joe: was writing thatstoryline, but Yeah.
nick: I’m so bad withknowing who’s write, who I’m reading from, like currently I’m trying to gothrough what was like the last few like story runs I’ve been reading and it’s [00:16:00] oh man, there’s so many of them that I’vegone through and I’m like, oh wait, which one are we on now?
But go ahead.
geo: Oh, I haveanother question related to the physical things being
nick: invisible.
geo: how plausiblethat is. And I think that’s a very important question, but is it possible tohave an invisible jet?
joe: They are workingon materials that would be able to do that, right? If you just, you reflectrain.
The whole idea is to bend light around optically fool the eye,right? That’s, yes, they’re working on that type of thing. I know there’stanks, ships, all sorts of, and if it’s a material thing, they can do it. It’sreally the person that you would go and that’s, so it’s a little bit ofbiology, so her powers are even more kind of awe-inspiring because not only isshe invisible to the eye where you bend light, okay, maybe we can figure out a [00:17:00] machine or something to do that.
But she’s also visible from infrared. She’s invisible her smelllike so no one smells her. So you have all these things that also no heat
geo: and sound. Isthe sound totally gone?
joe: think she stillcan talk. You can hear, she’s, her thermal signature is gone. Wow. So you’remanipulating all of this the MAs stat.
So that, that’s where this idea of the field, the force fieldmakes sense. So if you generate some sort of forward field that you emanate outof your skin or your body, then you can start to explain these other thingsthat happen. Along there that she cannot be detected. So
geo: Back to theInvisible Jet. No I always
joe: I didn’t wanted toget to this,
geo: no, that’s my
nick: only
joe: you’re here isWonder Woman that’s gonna say Wonder Woman,
nick: I know.
geo: And those werelike my favorite episodes, but they were so silly because she’s flying along inthe air and you could totally see her, but you know what I mean? Her jet wasinvisible, but she still, you could see her flying in there. So that was just
joe: I [00:18:00] think she would turn invisible also in areal world. Like
nick: yeah, itwouldn’t make sense just to have because then you could see the rest of thestuff inside
joe: Hey, look, there’sa lady. It looks like Wonder Woman
geo: that’s justsitting there flying through the air
nick_u: feel likemodern writers have moved away from the invisible jet thing ’cause
joe: Yeah. Yeah.
geo: Oh
joe: So you do havelike vehicles in, in movies. There’s tons of those. The Visible Jet, the shieldhe carrier the Rolin, Warbird and Star Trek. The Predator goes invisible.
geo: and thepredator. You saw the heat signature though, right?
nick: I don’t
joe: know. He would seeother people’s heat signatures.
Oh, that’s right. Yeah. He had the, but I don’t know. I guessno one ever looked, but he,
geo: that would’vebeen a smart thing
joe: He bleeds and youcan kill him. Yeah, the the Quinjet.
geo: Was gonna say,in like some of the modern Marvel movies, right? That’s right. Hasn’t thathappened?
joe: Yep.
Yep. The Blackbird and the
nick: the X-Men
joe: the Tardis. Wejust had the doctor [00:19:00] episode earlierthis season. But yeah, the TARDIS does become invisible to people. The Observercan’t look at it because that’s the other I
nick: I thought itturns into something that blends in. Yeah,
joe: I thought it could
geo: more likecamouflage.
nick: like camouflagealso.
I thought it was more camouflage than Goes Invisible. I couldbe wrong. I don’t remember. That episode was a while back.
joe: we gotta bring theexpert back in Dr. Who fan. Chime in there. Let us know.
nick: So I, why doesinvisibility go hand in hand with a force field like. I feel like those
joe: Yeah. Yep.
nick: yeah. Arepretty hand in hand with damier every care hero that has that power.
joe: I think it’seasier to explain, right? So we had to make a human or anything invisible. Wehave a lot of problems. You might go, okay, skin is transparent. But if youlook at like the aquatic examples, I point out earlier, you still see theirbones, their organs your blood is pigmented.
So the hemoglobin, so you [00:20:00]gotta de pigment that. Your bone structures certain organs, your eyes, you havepigments that produce colors throughout your body. So to go invisible, youwould have to find some means to get rid of all of that, and so that’s
geo: But you’resaying, but you’re saying with a force field, it’s possible,
nick: or is that justthe bubble that keeps it encased?
joe: yes, That’s thebubble that you’re hiding in. It’s like a cloak then.
geo: Okay. And I wasgonna say, I really dislike someone and I don’t want to talk about their booksand I don’t even wanna bring it up. But I also enjoyed,
nick: got beef andthis is Georgia’s beef corner.
Can
geo: talk about theinvisibility cloak without talking about
joe: Oh yeah.
geo: who had that?
nick: So
joe: the, that’s, thatconcept has been used throughout mythology. So you can talk about the cloak ofArthur. That’s King Arthur mantle of invisibility and mythology, welsh’smythology kind of thing.
Or the rings of the Gorges. So there’s all sorts of referencesto a [00:21:00] physical object that allows youto become invisible. And the cloak is, one of these things that this particularauthor used I think a lot these elements were scattered through folklore and,mythology.
So Sure. You could
geo: we can just skip
joe: Yeah, you’re gonnaskip. Yeah. I see.
nick: and
geo: talk about Yeah.
nick: So
joe: So you can go backto the
nick: I don’t knowwhich one you’re talking about. Georgia. Yes.
geo: you do.
joe: you’re you are,where you’re just bending light, right? You’re reflecting light and you’rematching then the index of the surroundings, right?
So when light passes through things or interacts with somethingit reflects, it bends, refracts, and so can you use that and can you just bendthe light? So essentially, light rays are hitting everything. So can you justbend a light around you from what’s behind you? So that way then when you look,it’s oh, I don’t see you, I see what’s behind you.
So if you have a cloak like that made outta some mythicalmaterial or has some sort of magical powers. Or an energy source, and it’s got,so right. So then you can just do that. You can have it and hide [00:22:00] behind it. So yeah, the cloth, actually,the cloak may be the most plausible of all the invisibility,
geo: and why is thatmore plausible than like a
nick: vehicle? Is itbecause it covers the whole you?
geo: any, anythingthat’s like a physical thing that’s not a human
joe: non biology. Yes,that’s right. Yes. Okay. So there’s the bi the biology to get to someone that’sinvisible. You could start, you go, okay, that’s difficult.
But there could be other things, like it could be some sort ofquantum kind of shift. So I. The observer effect, we talked the observer effectwhere once you look at something, it locks it into some state. The weepingangels in the Dr. Who,
nick: so have yougone back to Dr. Who recently? I’m going back. You feel like you’ve beenbringing it
geo: like he needs toI
nick: He’s trying toredeem himself. Yeah.
geo: he’s got a lotof ground to
joe: I got a lot ofbeef for only watching a couple episodes,
nick: so
joe: Don’t stop givingme a hard time. I was like the Lord of the Rings. I get there. I get
nick: Which I’mshocked that you haven’t brought up that the ring turns ferdo invisible.
joe: You to talk aboutthat.
nick: Oh, you did.You just did.
joe: this is a perfect,[00:23:00]
nick: So
joe: you, this is agreat segue. Thank you, Nick. That’s why, because I was gonna say that if youare tapping into the multiverse that you are, you may not be invisible, but youmay have gone to another.
Dimensional space and therefore,
geo: and that’s whathappened in Lord of the Rings, he went to another
joe: Yeah.
nick: it was,
joe: yeah. Some fi it
nick: was, oh,
geo: Ooh, anotherdimension like Twilight Zone.
joe: is there aninvisibility episode?
geo: Oh my gosh, Idon’t know. I gotta do some research.
nick: Can’t believeyou Georgia,
joe: But you could havethat type
geo: I bet you thereis, don’t
joe: that type ofthing. And I always think of when I think of that as an infants and their, theconcept of permanence.
nick: Oh, so likeplaying peekaboo.
joe: They playing
geo: They love peek
nick: invisible tothem.
joe: You do. Yeah. Soit
nick: is,
geo: just disappear.
joe: So you could do,That was the thing with the
geo: I can’t waittill we have video for
joe: Oh my gosh.
geo: that
joe: but the shadow inthe thirties. He was a noir detective, pro nore, ’cause thirties that what [00:24:00] happened and he was manipulate minds.
He had a cloud of kind of illusion and people would not see himand
nick_u: that sounds,yeah. And yeah, he predates a lot of pretty much any superhero,
joe: Yeah. Yeah. That’sright. Yeah.
geo: Yeah. I wasactually thinking about that. Maybe it was, it wouldn’t even be that someonewouldn’t see it, but that someone’s controlling that person’s mind where theydon’t see
joe: That’s right.Yeah. Yeah. So you could do that. You could become, so there’s a number of waysto get there without. Trying to,
geo: though that ispretty, not very plausible
These are not the droids you’re looking for.
joe: That’s right.Yeah.
nick: I,
geo: droids areinvisible.
joe: I’ll say that theFantastics four science nose dives into hand avium early on with theirinteractions with the cosmic these cosmic particles these high energy. Sourcesof energy bombarding their bodies. Generally, 99.99% of the time you’re gonnadie a horrific, normally cancerous tumorous death.
geo: Normally that is[00:25:00] not,
nick: but there’s achance, is what you’re telling me. I’m
joe: yes. Yeah,
nick: There still isa chance, but
joe: we have a soup, wehave a meal and a suit. That’s a and a spaceship. Let’s go.
geo: It’s likethinking, oh, it’s a good idea to go in a little tiny submarine and under thewater. That sounds like a good idea.
joe: Yes. No, I thinkit’s a,
nick: a
nick_u: and that,that’s a lot of oh, superhero, super villain origin stories though. But likerealistically, they would just die. Electro for instance, got electrocuted andit became a,
nick: Sandman. It’salways some kind of experiment gone wrong.
joe: Yeah.
nick_u: right.
nick: But
joe: did, since we leftthat small door open, I think one you could go, maybe as they passed and he isgot bombarded by these cosmic rays
nick: Okay.
joe: that potentiallytheir ship could have had some level of shielding.
geo: And
joe: so our selectiveprotection, so maybe as they were getting [00:26:00]bombarded, that’s why their powers are different. It affected ’em differently.Maybe the radiation activated dormant kind of genes transposons or theseretroviruses that are contained in our bodies and started to do careful geneticand what you have.
Is you essentially they probably speciate in real time.
nick: So
joe: they
nick: became, is itpossible that they were mutants that got accelerated along the lines of aninhuman? And
geo: and thosemutations are what got activated.
nick: That’s
joe: exactly right.That’s where I was headed. The speciation.
Because now they’re just they’re the proto X-Men.
geo: It’s like thatexact perfect.
Moment in the exact Perfect.
joe: So that’s why
nick: circumstancesmade this
joe: And that’s why Iwas asking
geo: And that’s why Iwas asking, it’s kinda like Dr. Strange would say that is a one in a like 5trillion chance that
joe: I don’t think hesaid 5 trillion, but
geo: know. I’m justmaking that
nick: up.
joe: I was gonna say,that’s why I asked about the Children’s, because mutants, if you look at theX-Men story, when mutants have kids, [00:27:00]they generally have powers. The Incredibles, they have their kids off, sobecause those are genetic inheritable traits. But if they were not, they werepoint mutations, they didn’t infect the kind of your genome of your
nick: sperm.
joe: and egg, that’s,when you have kids, they would just be normal human kids.
nick: So wouldn’t youneed to have another super to the, alright, so
joe: I dunno wherewe’re going.
nick: This is, if theIncredible Hulk
joe: Yes.
nick: was with anyoneother than a superhero, wouldn’t it still hold a massive amount of radiation?
joe: So Go ahead Nick.You
nick_u: No I actuallyjust didn’t understand the question.
joe: Oh yeah.
nick: so
joe: this isreproductive biology 1 0 1 here.
nick: We all knowthat. The incredible hu is it’s extremely radiated. He has all kinds of riddledradiation,
geo: it probablywouldn’t even be safe to get [00:28:00] busywith.
nick: Exactly. Unlessit he’s with another super. That can withstand that.
joe: But he doesn’temanate radiation, does he? He, in a, especially MCU, comics, he’s around
geo: I think he he,
joe: I think he wasjust mutated.
P got the large blast of gamma
geo: What about thefact that he stayed the incredible
nick: ho now
geo: Now that hasnothing to do with it. Nevermind
nick: Yeah.
nick_u: yeah. Thewhole thing with units is that they’re born
nick: But if itaffects, but
joe: if you I think thepoint is of that. If you become, and I think that was a line in some of theX-Men storylines, like who is considered a mutant and who isn’t? Do you havepowers that you were innately born with? Or did you inherit the powers becauseyou licked the rock and you
geo: you, are youjust really wealthy and you can build it in a cave
nick: Scraps?
nick_u: Okay.
joe: where’s the thatidea of speciation that, that was magneto’s push, was that the mutants were thenext evolutionary step of humans. Like they, [00:29:00]they became speciated to something else, but from a total species, they stillcould reproduce with regular heat.
So
nick_u: yeah. Hohomo,
joe: Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
nick_u: Yeah. Yeah.And yeah.
nick: But
joe: yeah.
nick_u: I was justhomo superior instead of homo.
joe: superior, right?Is that what that was it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
geo: I think that’sdefinitely his point of view, right?
joe: Yeah. No, and asNick pointed out earlier, that the villains often think they’re a hundredpercent correct and,
nick: But likeMagneto was,
geo: I was gonna say,I was gonna say you have these special powers.
You, you and these special mutations. You are superior, right?You, if you’re stronger, faster, or whatever, that makes you, what are youdefining as
joe: superior?
nick: You know whatI’m saying?
nick_u: Magneto isone of those characters that there’s a lot of different interpretations of him.I think sometimes he’s more right. Sometimes he’s less Right. Depending onwho’s writing
nick: Exactly. Yeah.It’s like sometimes he’s written, even though he’s still [00:30:00] a bad guy, he’s a hero. It makes sense,or,
joe: or,
nick_u: Yeah.
nick: but it dependson who he’s going against and what side he’s standing against.
geo: seems so muchmore realistic.
nick: Oh, a hundredpercent.
joe: Yeah. Very nuancedapproach to that.
geo: Okay. I wantedto bring up something, but I should have done a little research,
joe: Okay.
nick: but
geo: Kevin Macon,
joe: The Invisible man.
geo: No. Wasn’t itHollow Man?
Was it called Hollow
joe: I don’t know. Theydidn’t not get the IP to invisible.
I don’t, and Right. But yes, it was hollow man, but I think itwas just the invisible man and,
nick: and
geo: I’m just like,you know how I’m number one fan? And Kevin, if you are listening, I’m numberone fan. But
nick: she has a lotof number one fans,
joe: your number onefan.
geo: And I guess thisgoes back to the invisible man, I can’t remember what happened that made himinvisible.
nick: Yeah.
joe: There was aformula
nick_u: Yeah, he was,it was an experiment that went wrong.
joe: Yeah. Again, itwas an unauthorized experimentation.[00:31:00]
geo: So he was liketrying to do something else, and then he realized
nick: he was, I
geo: I can’t, I justcan’t remember. All I can remember is
nick_u: Wasn’t hetrying to make
joe: invisible? Yeah.That was his goal was to become invisible. So he, it, I guess it succeeded.
Yeah. But then he went
nick_u: Yeah.
geo: yeah.
joe: and all sorts ofstuff. Yeah. But he changed the reflective, the refractive index of his body.That was the idea. That’s that we were talking about. You’d have to do. But he,it clothes didn’t disappear, so he was just be walking around
nick_u: So how muchof a tangent would it be to talk about ghosts or is that a whole other episode?
joe: We are planning aghost episode, but Yeah. If you wanna touch on it. Yeah. Go forward. Yeah.’cause they were. Yeah.
nick_u: Yeah. I I wasjust I’m just thinking that there’s a lot of ghosts and fiction, including incomics, there’s a comic called Cyrus Perkins in the Haunted Taxi Cab, which isa very indie comic, but it is all about, how this guy can’t be seen. He’sinvisible and how frustrated he feels with that.
I know with ghost, sometimes they have, it’s, they leavetrails. I can’t think of [00:32:00] the termoffhand, but yeah, I just, that’s, something that we see a lot in fiction. Theghosts are invisible,
nick: definitely.
joe: are. Yep. As youdon’t see ’em, they’re
geo: Except sometimesin
nick: likephotographs and stuff.
joe: Yeah, inphotographs.
geo: No,
nick: look at thisphotograph. Georgia.
geo: They have allthose things where yeah,
nick: but so whenyou’re talking about ghosts being
joe: invisible. Yeah.But
nick: they do havethat ability to make themselves known, right?
So would that be a power of them then? ‘ cause they are able toshow themselves, but their regular state is so it’s like a reverse invisibility, right?
nick_u: Yeah. I thinkit depends on another thing that depends on the writer. I think Ghost Ghostsare sometimes that way, and sometimes they’re not. I know the Remember Me booksby Christopher Pike, there were also, there was also about, the character beinga ghost and frustrated with not being seen, and she couldn’t make herself seen.
nick: Yeah. Yeah.
joe: No ghosts. Yeah,you’re right. I don’t know what their base state is.
nick: Because I feellike in any story, ghosts can always see other [00:33:00]ghosts, but humans can’t always see the ghost.
nick_u: Yes. Thatsounds accurate. Yeah.
nick: I feel like itwould be the willingness to wanna be seen in that.
Where for invisibility, it’s the willingness to not wanna beseen. I don’t know.
joe: Or to, it could bethe perception of the observer. So you have that, you also have that to keep inmind is that, are you prepared to see what and believe?
I think there’s that’s the other idea. There’s some belief andthings like that cooked into the ghost lore.
nick: We’ll find outsoon enough, Joe. We’re
joe: We’re gonna findout soon enough,
geo: And this is atotal tangent, but like daredevil. Okay. Daredevil is blind, so he can’t see.But then he does see
nick: everything
geo: and that’sbecause it’s like he can hear echo,
joe: Yeah. I thinkthat’s his ability there. Yep.
nick: So would he beable to pick up Sooth storm?
Like
nick_u: I guess youwould
joe: he would. Hewould, yeah. Yeah.[00:34:00]
nick_u: Done beforein
joe: Yeah.
geo: It was done.
nick_u: I wonder ifthere’s a comic where that has been done
joe: over. Yeah.
geo: Oh yeah. That’sa good question.
joe: she, yeah, it’sinteresting because he relies on the echolocation, but also smell and heatsignatures. He picks up on all of sensory is, and, but Sue actually mass allthat. She becomes
nick: minus thesound,
joe: invisible. I don’tthink she makes sound unless she wants to talk.
nick: See,
geo: the, myquestion. Like
joe: I don’t think,
I don’t think
geo: able to say,okay, no sound. Exactly. Yeah. Or does she just, she can just get really quiet,’
nick: cause her force
joe: fields can fly.She can float ’em. So you wouldn’t have to make any sound. It, you’re, she’spretty powerful, when you think of her as a character and what her powers areand how she could exploit those powers
nick: and within thebubble, she probably can’t be smelled.
geo: That’s what hewas
joe: That’s what sayingThat’s right. Yeah.
nick: Huh.
joe: I get funky inthat bubble.
I always, with force fields, I’m always like, what’s the flowof oxygen? You need [00:35:00] to breathe andso how big is your force field? How much oxygen was in that force field whenyou got contained? Is there some passive, can
nick: you fit throughthis door
joe: molecules likeoxygen flow through? Yeah I’m always, ’cause the force fields are impenetrable.I mean they’re, so maybe it’s a size, maybe it’s a speed of projectile. I don’tknow. But that’s always something that’s not really explained. It’s like we gottaa force field around us.
Let’s go do some work. And it’s and that was in the IncrediblesViolet, she can also make force fields. That was her part of her power set.
nick_u: Nice. Yeah.
joe: And I was gonnasay I had other characters, but in that timeframe, in, in the sixties, it wasinteresting that you have a few the shadow thief from DC Comics in 61.
Was
geo: was
joe: invisibledimensional. He is a dimensional dimen, dimen meter. It was a tech
geo: Can you saythat?
Three
joe: No, I am not
nick: wait, I wasn’tpaying attention. What is that Phantom girl?
joe: 61 also. And shehad phase shift to other dimensions. It was all this kind of [00:36:00] dimensionality shifting. We were talkingabout one way to become invisible.
DC also had a 63 chameleon. Boy, explain. I didn’t evenrealize. I was,
geo: was gonna say,these are all like band names. This is like
joe: the
nick: one I realize
joe: the spot. But hehas inter interdimensional portals usage. So
nick: I wouldn’tconsider the spot invisible.
joe: It dips out,right? So if someone’s there and they leave,
nick: that’s notgoing invisible. That’s dipping out.
joe: Yeah. But if youshow up again, you’ve, if you go to a different dimension. That’s the sameidea. That’s just inter, so if you’re here, it’s like playing
nick: people that’sjust leaving.
joe: weaving.
geo: Just,
nick: that’s just,hold on. I’m gonna walk out this door, but I’m going invisible. Don’t worry.
geo: Yeah. I have toagree with Nick on that one because if you’re not there, then what? What? Yeah,
nick: can
joe: come back. You caninstantly,
nick: I can walk outand come back in.
joe: Yeah. But I cansee you.
nick: You didn’t oncethe door shut.
joe: Yeah. I don’tknow. What do you think, Nick?
nick_u: I’m not sure.
joe: He
nick: He wasn’t gonnahelp you on this one. Joe, [00:37:00] knows I’mright. He sticks with the nick because
geo: ’cause. Thewhole idea of being invisible is that you’re still there, but people don’t seeyou. If you are just suddenly not there, then how is that?
joe: If you if when Suestorm goes invisible, she generates this force field, what if it’s aninterdimensional force field?
What if she goes away,
geo: Then she’ll missout on some important information.
joe: Maybe she can hearit.
geo: she won’t be agood spy. Maybe
joe: she can hear theinformation. Still
nick: from adifferent German dimension.
geo: a different what
nick: dimension?
joe: Okay, I’ll skipit. So 87 you had Ghost
nick: Unrevealed
joe: ID and Iron Man.Two 19 Marvel.
That was quantum stealth tech. So yeah, you guys have shut
nick: Oh, was
nick_u: MilesMorales, and I didn’t know how that’s modern though.
joe: Yeah. Yep.
nick_u: My MilesMorales shirt right now.
nick: Hell
joe: Yep. Yeah, he did.Yeah. Like a bio bioelectric. Camouflage. Was that his, [00:38:00] that was how he went invisible, right? Yeah. Yeah.
nick_u: Yeah. And Iwonder are there actual spiders that can do that? And that’s where they got theidea.
Dennis got the idea.
joe: I, I don’t know ifthere’s, there may be spiders that can camouflage themselves that wouldn’t beout the realm. That’s like the
geo: bet there
joe: cephalopods, thechameleon itself. Like they can blend in so
geo: And spiders arerelated to,
joe: They are related.
But I don’t know, I don’t know any off the top of my head thatdo that, but it wouldn’t surprise me if there were,
geo: like I
joe: I said, I blendinginto your environment as a chameleon or as the CE epha pods do. I think that’s
That’s within the realm of,
geo: The most
joe: critical, right?
Yes.
geo: It’s like theguy in guardian guardians of the galaxy.
joe: Oh Drax. I’m gonnamove so slow.
nick_u: Yeah,
geo: I
nick: He learned thatfrom Gru
geo: That’s so good.
nick_u: invisible to.
joe: Yeah. Yeah,exactly.
nick: I’m standing.So still.
geo: Was
joe: I eating the Znuts or [00:39:00] zar nuts?
geo: z nuts?
joe: Yeah. Then therewas a whole bunch of like
nick: cool characters
joe: I’ve found throughcomics that have these things and we can, I don’t know, split hairs if it’s, ifquantum. Dimensional traveling to, to disappear is becoming invisible or not?
nick: I feel likethat one is a stretch.
geo: Ooh. Good pun
joe: All right, Mr.Fantastic.
nick: But yeah I feellike to be invisible, you have to be still present in this dimension.
joe: So you can’t be ina different dimension.
nick: No,
geo: put that outthere. So anyone listening to this weigh in on that.
nick_u: Yeah. Yeah,that does sound accurate. If you’re still here, you’re just invisible. You’rein this.
geo: I think it, it’sa different definition,
joe: but you could be,you could beat us in super position, right? You could be in both states. So you
geo: oh, now you’retrying to change it. It could be
joe: in this otherdimensional space, right? So you are still present, but you’re not Well,
nick: but going backto the spot, he’s not, unless he has another portal there, which he still [00:40:00] visible.
joe: Yeah I’m, okay,I’ll give you the spot one. But all the other ones I’m going to,
nick: I wasn’tpushing back on any other one, but the
joe: The spot. So I hadnight crawler also. But that’s the same, you’re, you’re probably gonnadisappearing,
geo: But
nick: thendisappearing
joe: is becominginvisible.
nick: That’steleportation. No,
geo: but then you’renot there once you disappear.
You’re not there even if you reappear super fast.
joe: But you are, he isthere, right? I don’t
geo: gosh. Okay. All
joe: Yeah. No.
nick: That’steleportation. We’ve already covered this,
joe: but we didn’t saythey could become invisible with it, right?
You guys are a hundred percent hand waving on now I gotta makethese yeah.
nick_u: Yeah. Yeah. Ifeel like if you can split yourself and we’re, you’re also in anotherdimension, a whole other power,
joe: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,early fiction the Invisible Man by HG Wells, the 1897
geo: an accident gonewrong? Yeah, that was the same as The Hollow Man.
joe: Yeah. Hollow Man.Yeah. And then Topper’s Ghosts. So we had this, the ghost that was once again [00:41:00] came up and
geo: Topper’s Ghost,are you talking about like Carrie
joe: 1937, the film?
geo: Yeah. Oh my God,I’m so impressed.
I love Topper. I love
joe: The InvisibleAgent film 1942. Yeah, that, and then in the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen,there was a,
nick_u: Nice.
nick: the invisible
joe: man, right? Yeah.So it was the Invisible man.
nick: I wonder whyinvisibility did become as well known as it is, like beyond like superherorealms.
It’s also in the scientific realm where it’s oh, if they weretrying to go with an experiment to do this why? What was the purpose for thatthen?
joe: You mean
geo: I’m not sure Iunderstand what
nick: mean. Yeah.Like why were they trying to go invisible?
joe: You mean in reallife or in the,
nick: in, I thinksome of it’s in like the Invisible Man or hollow man.
joe: I think he wasdoing it just to do it right. And I think it had practical kind of tech imple,you could sell us to, [00:42:00] industries
nick: but it wasn’ttech. It wa it was experimenting. Yeah.
nick_u: the madscientists with a precursor to the. Tech, the Mad Tech guy.
joe: You can imagineThat was in 18, 18 96, 7. That’s,
geo: I think
joe: Not buildingIronman suits.
geo: I think thedesire to be able to be somewhere without being seen, I think that’s somethingthat probably like people have always wanted to do,
nick: That’s becauseit’s creepy
joe: to be present
geo: But also to belike, you find out a lot of stuff.
Yeah.
joe: Or situationallyyou may wanna be, not seen and that’s an invisible man, the novel. That’s
geo: you said, alwayssay I want oh, I would’ve liked to been a fly on the wall. Because people don’tpay attention to the flies on the wall unless there’s a lot of ’em.
Then they do.
joe: Yeah. Yeah. Idunno where we’re headed today.
nick: I get veryannoyed if there’s a fly in the room.
geo: I really dislikeflies.
joe: But the invisibleman, the novel. That was what it was about being invisible in society and.
There. So I think becoming invisible [00:43:00]can have both as a power where you can spy on people.
Creep on people.
geo: Like we weretalking about the women, women not being taken seriously and then sneaking upon you.
joe: What are yousaying, Nick? Oh,
nick_u: yeah. And the2020 Visible Man was essentially about gaslighting where he an abuse tacticwhere make making everyone think she’s crazy when, ’cause no one’s believingher, that he turned himself invisible and that these things,
joe: Yeah.
nick: As I said, itgoes back to being creepy.
joe: Yeah.
nick_u: right?
nick: I think
joe: you also just go,I think in a lot of these they were playing off the mad scientist trope, butthen also just losing your mind. ’cause now you are invisible right now, nomatter how cool that power is, no one can see you.
You could be in a space
nick: but
joe: seen. That’salmost
nick: it does havethat social commentary where there are people that do just feel invisiblebecause of X, Y, and Z where they exist. But no one like the ghost Taxi or itwas Ghost.
nick_u: Oh, Cyrus [00:44:00] Perkins in the haunted taxi camp. It’s a,yeah, it’s a horror comic from the, about 10 years ago.
nick: I haven’t readit, but it did catch my interest already.
geo: know. I justlove the title. Yeah.
joe: Yeah. That’s cool.We’ll throw that in the show notes.
nick: just to seewhere that goes, because I don’t know if you can. Comment on this, but what isthe general social commentary for that? ’cause it feels like it’s just a driverthat just everyone ignores.
nick_u: Yeah, I thinkthat’s act. It was been some time since I’ve read it, but I read it when it wasnew and I think it was about 10 years ago, 2015 ish. It, it was definitelysaying something about class I remember that much where, people, like peoplejust don’t pay attention to the taxi driver.
It’s like he is invisible, and they’ll just say whatever theywant in front of a taxi driver,
nick: yeah. And thatmakes extreme sense.
joe: Yeah. And just foreveryone out there, don’t know, that was Ralph Ellison, his novel I wasreferencing
geo: and it hadreally nothing to do with
joe: to do with beingphysically
geo: Invisible Man isvery [00:45:00] different
nick: than the
joe: Yes. HG Invisibleman. So I wanted to make sure the commentary was there that the Ralph Ellison’sbook was a social commentary about being black in America.
And being invisible.
geo: it was in, andit’s so timely. And it was written in the forties, but
joe: yep. Yeah. Let’s,good read, put it in show notes. Cool.
nick: so Nick who isyour favorite invisible person?
nick_u: That’s a goodquestion. As far as superheroes, I guess would be Miles Morales love the 2020Invisible Mad movie that, that guy’s so creepy.
joe: Yeah. Yeah.
nick: I feel likethere’s a good reason why there aren’t that many men who are invisible.
joe: It’s probably,yes.
nick: At least Milesis a genuine person where it’s okay, I can trust this character with thispower.
nick_u: right.
nick: Any other onesyou’re like, ah, let’s not,
nick_u: and that’sthe whole thing with great power
joe: Yeah. Exactly.Yes.
nick_u: bad thingswith this power. Or you can do horrible things
joe: right?
nick_u: [00:46:00] I’ll, excuse me. You can do good thingswith the power. You can make the world a better place or you can do horriblethings with it and self selfish things with it.
joe: Yeah. That’s oneof the special things with Sue is that she can control the invisibility.Because a lot of folks, you, you’re either invisible all the time and there isno coming back.
So like the invisible man, he was just invisible and then hehad to live with that state for the rest, for the rest of his life and docreepy stuff. Then you just start,
If you’re like, I’m just be invisible, why not? Why not creepout? I don’t know.
nick: Why not creepout Joe? Oh, no.
geo: Okay. Okay.Nick, what’s your favorite?
nick: Oh, so I thinkit’s a, it’s probably a tie between Sue and Miles because both of them havesuch a strong personality.
joe: Yeah.
nick: And both usetheir powers in different ways. And their range of powers goes to two endswhere miles is very much more contained.
Where Sue. [00:47:00] Does havemore of a ability to blend others as well and other objects. So it’s like
joe: Protective role,right? Yeah. So she has that
nick: a veryprotective, motherly figure.
joe: Yes. That she cando that, use her powers, Georgia.
geo: Yeah. Since,like I said, I’m not super familiar with Sue.
I would,
I look forward to finding out more about her.
I don’t know if I really have a favorite invisible character.Yeah. ’cause the jet, that’s not a person. Jet, I
joe: but Jet, I knewyou were gonna say that. Jet Georgia
nick: No. And
geo: and I would sayKevin Bacon’s character, but that actually, to be honest, is not one of myfavorite Kevin Bacon
joe: Yeah. The HollowMan.
geo: You know what Imean?
yeah, it’s tough to,
nick: I’m shocked
that you didn’t go violet.
You,
geo: I actually, Iwas just gonna say
joe: yeah. Violet.Violet par.
geo: and the Yeah.
joe: Yep. From theIncredibles. Yeah, that’s a good one.
geo: that is a goodone.[00:48:00]
joe: And yeah I I’mwould go with Tiger from the Thundercats 85. That’s, that was,
nick: that was
joe: was right. Thatwas right in my wheelhouse there.
So I’m gonna do it. That was. I love me some Thundercats.
geo: How could younot like someone named Tigris?
joe: tig.
geo: Oh, sorry.
joe: But you’re right.Tigris
nick: want to takethat again? Georgia?
geo: I like Tigressand I like tiger.
joe: Maybe a quickquestion for everyone. Would you want the power of in. Invisibility and maybeto make it a little more difficult, you’re stuck with it.
You, you are invisible or you’re not you get to pick.
nick: Nick, you wannastart off?
nick_u: I think Iwould like the power if I could turn it
joe: Yeah. Yeah.
nick_u: but I.
geo: Yeah. I agree. Iwouldn’t want it if I could’ve turned it off.
nick: I know Inormally go with yes for most of these, but I’m gonna go back to being theinvisibility power gets creepy with guys, and
joe: Yeah. You don’tthink you could control, you don’t think you would serve restraint.[00:49:00]
nick: I like to fuckwith people. This would just enhance that ability.
geo: Then, but youwould enjoy it.
nick: It wouldn’t befor anything good.
geo: Okay.
joe: Yeah. Okay. Yeah
nick_u: I feel likeit’s power could used to expose powerful people or the corrupt very easily, ordo behind closed.
nick: exactly.
joe: Yeah.
nick: but thenthere’s the element of I can really make this person. You start gaslightingbillionaires
joe: and that’s stillit becomes a slippery slope. Because that’s when you get on it. You might bedoing something in your head. As Nick pointed out, like most good villains,they feel just in their actions that they’re doing it for the right reason.
nick: And
joe: if you write, ifit’s a good storytelling and well written, you go, you know what they do have apoint. I think they’re going about the wrong way,
nick: all right. Yousold me. I can keep this job as a podcaster.
joe: Yeah.
geo: And in a waywe’re, we are invisible.
nick: Our liveperformances just could be me recorded.
joe: Yeah, that’sright.
nick: here? Yeah, I’mright here.
joe: Nick at?
nick: Just
[00:50:00] behind the curtain,I promise. What about you, Joe? You taking the power?
joe: Yeah. I
think I’m a pass, I’m gonna pass on this one. I think if Icould, I threw that little disclaimer in ’cause if I could control it.
I would do that, but I’d eat a lot of Big Macs. So
nick: do you neverdid go over like I, is it calorie count for being able to
joe: so yeah. I don’t,speculating out what you would have to do to generate and bend light, are youcountering energy? What’s the role of that?
You probably are gonna be burning some galleries to throw forcefields over other people or yourself, or to make weapons. And if you’redimensionally traveling, that also is, gonna cost some,
nick: no one was, noone brought that one up.
joe: We did bring itup. It was there, it works. Yeah. So
nick: I didn’t knowif that would be more of a mind thing over like a physical
joe: We had, we touchedon a couple different ways. One could. Get to invisible. One was mind control,like the shadow in the
geo: and then, so if
nick: Controlling [00:51:00] the force field with your mind. Yeah.
joe: We didn’t talkabout some of that.
I think to, to go invisible and then come back, you probablyare gonna have to have some neural reworking. You might have a new layer ofskin. You might actually have to physically have all this ’cause your reactiontime has to be fast in a control ad.
You’re now controlling almost another sense in some ways to goinvisible. So you’re right. I think, from a, from some level, I think it’s I’msurprised people haven’t, I guess they were just bombarding themselves withcosmic rays trying to recreate invisibility or get that what genes were turnedon or off.
nick: So now I have aquestion. Is for the invisible man, is he just not smart enough to turn it off?Yeah, I don’t,
joe: yeah I, go ahead
geo: but I think.
nick_u: I don’t thinkthat what, that’s what
joe: Yeah. I don’tthink it was about him not being
geo: I think itdepends on the mechanism. I think if it’s the force field mechanism, you’reable to turn it off Do you know what I mean? I don’t [00:52:00]that’s,
joe: I’m
nick: like, is itjust that part of your brain that you’re not like. Focusing on. See,
geo: I don’t thinkit’s a part of your brain. I don’t know.
joe: I think I thinkthat’s, that was a, that point about is it genetically viable? Because I thinkin the Invisible Man story where it got turned on, he drank some sort of potionor a compound that then remove pigmentation like that was, he wasn’t generatinga force field.
He was going more the way. The cephalopods would do it, orchameleons, like they, he was actually trying to modify the refractive index ofhis body to have light pass through without being seen or Ben. So
geo: That makes itperfectly clear.
nick: Yeah.
joe: yeah. Yeah.
nick: Crystal. Allright. Nick you want to go ahead and run through your plugs for us one moretime?
nick_u: Sure. Yeah, Iam. I’m Nick. I am [00:53:00] currently writingabout books on Substack, starving author.substack.com. I have a horror novelcalled Massacre at the comic Shop. And I’ve written two books of poetry as wellAmerican Bug and as the Moonlight Shines. And and I also wrote about comic booksfor comic book resources.
You can check those reviews out. Oh, I’m no longer at thecompany. The thing that I really want people to check out is my substack, whichwhere I’ll be updating on the first and third Friday of every month. And notjust writing comic book reviews, but also reporting on comic book news,especially any indie comic books that I don’t see.
Any of the websites talking about I’ll, I might occasionallywrite an article about that.
geo: Nice.
nick: Very cool. Arethere any specific articles you want people to check out?
nick_u: For comicbook resources, I wrote an article titled a Action Comics Number one is one ofthe greatest works of anti-fascist art ever made where I write about and it’sconsidering that Superman movies coming out soon. You should definitely checkthat out.
nick: hell yeah.
nick_u: I in theoriginal [00:54:00] action comics, the firstappearance of Superman and widely considered to be the first superhero comicbook, not necessarily the first superhero story, but, or even the firstsuperhero comic, but comic book and where Superman, beat up a domestic abuser, gotan innocent woman off death row.
And and went after a lobbyists. And that was the originalSuperman and how it was created by two Jews in the 1930s during, the rise ofAdolf Hitler and global antisemitism and and how there were a lot of Jewishrefugees at the time and people didn’t accept refugees. It was the union polls,actually, if you compare it to I’m getting, I’m just diving into the wholearticle right now, but it’s
nick: Yeah. Yeah.
nick_u: But if youactually compare it to opinion polls in the 1930s, the attitude towards Jewishrefugees 1930s were significantly worse than the attitude towards Muslimrefugees today, believe it or not people.
In America hated them. And and I don’t think it was acoincidence that when they wrote [00:55:00]Superman, they made him a refugee. And I view it as statement of solidarityagainst other people that have, were being mistreated by society. And and it’s,again, the article settled Action Comics number one is one of the greatestworks of anti-fascist art ever made.
joe: Nice. cool. Yeah.Cool, cool. We’ll have that in the show notes for people to check out. Yep.
right. On that note let’s wind it down. You got me, Joe, here,you got Nick.
nick_u: How’s it?
joe: Gotcha. We
geo: Nick, we haven’tgot,
nick: And we got Nick
joe: we got anotherNick. And we have Georgia.
geo: Bye. See youlater.
nick: Thanks again,Nick, for joining
joe: Thank you. Thankyou.
nick: And
we went down an invisible hole. I
geo: I can’t seeanything.
joe: stay visible outthere. Stay safe.
Love y’all.

The Show Notes: Episode 18: Cybernetic Futures: Technology Meets Humanity Are We Ready?

We dive into the realm of cybernetics, the possibility of advanced prosthetics, Biohacking, futuristic sci-fi scenarios like in RoboCop, and what it means to be human.

Listen to Episode 18

Welcome to the Shownotes! We are staying organized with timestamps (folks seemed to like them). As always, feel free to comment, and we will address it in future shows! Enjoy.

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artwork by

Georgia Geis @atomic_number14

Joe’s Show Notes:

00:00 Welcome to the Basement Studio

00:27 Craft Beer Chat

Joe: Seed, Stalk, and Root dark lager- collaboration between Brooklyn brewery and Cajun Fire
Nick: Fúme — Mac Brewery — Barrel and Flow Collaborative Beer

01:08 Introduction to Cyborgs

1:17 Definition of Cyborg

Cyborg
The term was coined in 1960 by Manfred Clynesand Nathan S. Kline.

01:49 Cyborgs in Pop Culture

Bicentennial Man:

Issac Asimov’s story
Robin Williams’ movie (1999)

04:17 Inspector Gadget and RoboCop (1987)

10:34 Bionic Eyes and Prosthetics

20:42 Exploring Robocop’s Directives

“Serve the public trust”
“Protect the innocent”
“Uphold the law”
“Any attempt to arrest a senior officer of OCP results in shutdown” (Listed as [Classified] in the initial activation)

21:33 Treasure Planet‘s Cyborg Pirate

22:24 The Eyeborg Project

23:30 Biohacking and Grinders

24:18 Hearing Colors: An Artistic Innovation

25:15 Biomagnets and Body Modifications

26:57 Brain-Computer Interfaces and Neuralink

27:25 Wearable Medical Devices

31:47 Cyborg Insects and Environmental Monitoring

33:22 Ethical Questions in Cybernetics

36:39 Personal Cybernetic Enhancements

39:16 Concluding Thoughts and Future Possibilities

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The Show Notes: Episode 17: Brainwaves and Superpowers: Can Humans Really Move Objects with Their Minds? Separating facts from Handwavium.

Joe, Nick, and guest Michael Lynn talk about the science and handwavium of telepathy and telekinesis. Discussing everything from twins, government-funded research, brainwaves, to the truly bizarre.

In Episode 17 of the Rabbit Hole of Research, hosts Joe and Nick welcome guest Michael Lynn, a material scientist and YouTube creator behind the YouTube Channel: ROTOFORGE, to discuss the fascinating and mysterious topics of telepathy and telekinesis. They delve into historical references, pop culture depictions (like Jedi from Star Wars, Professor X from Marvel, and Matilda), and even touch upon government experiments such as those depicted in ‘The Men Who Stare at Goats.’ Michael provides insights grounded in science and even contemplates the potential of future technological advancements in brain communication. Enjoy the fun banter, quirky references, and let’s not forget—what’s everyone drinking today? Dive in for an exciting exploration of whether these fantastical abilities could ever become reality!

Listen to Episode 17

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Guest: Michael Lynn follow him on his YouTube CHANNEL: ROTOFORGE

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Joe’s Show Notes:

00:00 Welcome to Episode 17

00:18 Meet Our Guest: Michael Lynn

Youtube channel: Rotoforge

01:09 Nick and Joe Communicated telepathically?

2:26 What are we Drinking?

Joe: Two Hearted IPA, Bells Brewery and water
Nick: Emo Emu by Sun King and Liquid Death
Micheal: Soylent and Rum
Movie: Soylent Green (1973)

03:44 The Science and Fiction of Telepathy

Term coined in 1882 by Frederic W.H. Myers of the Society for Psychical Research, but similar ideas likely predated the term itself.
- Direct Mind-to-Mind Communication: the direct transfer of thoughts, emotions, or information between individuals without any intermediate tools or devices.
- Types of Telepathy:
- Emotive Telepathy: Transmission of emotions or feelings.
- Mental Telepathy: Transfer of thoughts, concepts, or ideas.
- Physical Telepathy: Influence over physical states or actions, often considered part of psychokinesis.

4:39 What is peer review?

Definition: the evaluation of scientific, academic, or professional work by others working in the same field.

4:49 Government Research and Historical Accounts

7:14 The ancient Indian Sanskrit epic Mahabharata

7:28 Jesus

8:17 1889 story “To Whom This May Come” by Edward Bellamy

8:48 Dr. Sleep (movie:2019)

10:45 fMRI- Functional Magnetic Resonance

11:51 The Concept of Twin Telepathy

Videos of Twins separated but identifying same objects

12:31 Identical twins with similar brain structure

13:07 Genetic sequencing of telepaths and twin telepathy

15:22 Animal Communication and Brain Waves

John Lilly
- Elephants: use low-frequency rumbling calls eallowing for transmission of simple messages over long distances.
- Cetaceans (whales, dolphins): echolocation may involve a form of telepathy by encoding information in sound waves.
- Primates: chimpanzees and bonobos may have a basic form of mind-reading by interpreting each other’s intentions and emotions.

16:33 Brainwaves

Brainwaves are the electrical impulses generated by the billions of neurons communicating with each other in the brain. These waves of electrical activity can be detected and measured using techniques like electroencephalography (EEG).
There are several main types of brainwaves, categorized by their frequency ranges:
- – Delta waves (0.1-3 Hz): Deep sleep, unconscious states
- – Theta waves (4-7 Hz): Light sleep, meditation, intuition
- – Alpha waves (8-12 Hz): Relaxed but awake state
- – Beta waves (13-30 Hz): Alert, focused mental activity
- – Gamma waves (30+ Hz): Higher cognitive functions

17:00 Brain Computer Interface (BCI) and Biophotonics

Brain-Computer Interface (BCI) technology creates the ability for humans to communicate directly with machines.
Brainwave based authentication
Brain Password
In 2015, Andrea Stocco and his colleagues at the University of Washington in Seattle demonstrate first brain-to-brain interface
In 2018, brain-to-brain interface between three people

20:19 Japanese concept of “ishin-denshin“

26:18 Long Term exposure to microwaves

22:06 Theoretical Possibilities and Genetic Engineering

27:14 Organoid

28:29 Super-man story and Space Jesus

The Reign of the Super-man (1933)
a short story written by Jerry Siegeland illustrated by Joe Shuster

31:11 Telepathy and Corporate Espionage

32:10 Nick Cage movie Next (2007)

Telechronology—Rabbit Hole of Research original term for mental time-travel

37:05 Telekinesis and Government Experiments

Men Who Stare at Goats — 2009 Movie
Government study

38:54 Sheep go to Heaven and Goats go to Hell

Cake song (1998-Album:Prolonging the Magic)
Biblical reference:Parable of The Sheep and the Goats from Chapter 25 of the Gospel of Matthew

42:00 Telekinesis: it’s always about the Calories

Eleven from Stranger Things always eating Eggo Waffles (180 Calories per waffle).

47:31 Chicago Southside Makerspace

ssh:Chicago

48:29 Francis E Deck

49:23 Nick Cage movie reference again

Bringing out the Dead (1999)

50:00 Monsters, Inc (2001)

Children are rumored to have telekinetic powers

50:22 Telepathy in Fiction and Pop Culture

Michael: Deanna Troy (Star Trek: Next Generation)
Nick: Professor Xavier and Matilda Honey
Joe: Scanners (1981) and Carrie (1976 movie) 1974 Stephen King novel

53:59 Wrapping Up and Final Thoughts

Check out Michael’s Youtube channel: Rotoforge

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The Show Notes: Episode 16.1 the b-side: Ultimate Alien Invasions, Panspermia, and Jeff Goldblum.

This is a companion episode to Episode 16. We talk about Jeff Goldblum, Sigourney Weaver, Will Smith, Starship Troopers, Invasion of the Body Snatchers, Thundercats, and are we made of alien stuff?

Welcome to the Footnotes of the B-sides! In this mini episode,Joe and Nick discuss their recent movie and TV show viewings including the new Alien movie, ‘Parasite’ and ‘Umbrella Academy Season 4’. They also revisit their ‘Ultimate Alien Actor’ debate, discussing contenders like Jeff Goldblum, Sigourney Weaver, and Will Smith. They delve into concepts of alien invasions in popular culture from ‘Starship Troopers’ to ‘Invasion of the Body Snatchers’ and ‘Thundercats’. The episode ends with a tease for the next episode, urging fans to send in comments and questions.

Listen to Episode 16

Listen to Episode 16.1 b-side

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artwork by Georgia Geis @atomic_number14 https://www.instagram.com/atomic_number14/

Show Notes:

00:00 Welcome to the Basement Studio

00:33 What Nick is watching:

Alien: Romuls Movie Review

02:13 What Joe is Watching:

Parasyte: The gray two episode left.
Finished Umbrella Academy season 4

03:06 Ultimate Alien Actor Debate

Sigourney Weaver

Alien (1979)
Aliens (1986)
Alien 3 (1992)
Alien: Resurrection (1997)
Avatar (2009)
Galaxy Quest (1999)
Paul (2011)
Avatar: The Way of Water (2022)

Jeff Goldblum

Invasion of the Body Snatchers (1978)
The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai Across the 8th Dimension (1984)
Earth Girls Are Easy (1988) – Plays an alien.
Independence Day (1996)
Independence Day: Resurgence (2016)
Thor: Ragnarok (2017)
Asteroid City (2023)

Will Smith

Independence Day (1996)
Men in Black (1997)
Men in Black II (2002)
Hancock (2008)
Men in Black 3 (2012)
Men in Black: International (2019) – Cameo via portrait.

Lance Henriksen

Aliens (1986)
Alien 3 (1992)
Alien vs. Predator (2004)
Alien vs. Predator: Requiem (2007)
The Visitor (1979)
Close Encounters of the Third Kind (1977)

Donald Sutherland

Invasion of the Body Snatchers (1978)
Virus (1999)
Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within (2001) – CGI role involving aliens.
The Puppet Masters (1994)

Kurt Russell

The Thing (1982) – Features a shape-shifting alien.
Stargate (1994) – Involves ancient extraterrestrial beings.
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 (2017) – Plays Ego the Living Planet.

06:58 Thundercats and Animation Styles

09:19 Panspermia and Alien Invasions

NASA Astrobiology Institute
Panspermia.org
The Murchison Meteorite
Journal of Astrobiology
Invasion of the Body Snatchers (1978)
The Blob (1958)

12:09 Nick’s Spiderman comic fan recommendation:

MARVEL KNIGHTS: SPIDER-MAN – FIGHT NIGHT

13:40 Wrapping Up and Teasers

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Episode 16: Exploring Alien Invasions: Movies, Theories, and is Jeff Goldblum the Ultimate Alien Actor

JOTHAM AUSTIN, II PHD AND NICK ELIZALDE

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The Show Notes: Episode 16: Exploring Alien Invasions: Movies, Theories, and is Jeff Goldblum the Ultimate Alien Actor

We talk alien invasion movies, Independence Day, The Thing, Mars Attacks, Cloverfield, and more. We discuss the Fermi Paradox, Bioforming, and debate if Jeff Goldblum is the ultimate alien actor.

Listen to Episode 16

Hello Fam! Hope y’all are doing well. So, here is Episode 16, Nick and Joe talk about Alien Invasion. Thank you for tuning in and supporting us. Our goal is to have a little fun exploring science through the lens of science fiction, fantasy and pop culture.

Back in the basement studio, Joe and Nick return, with beer in hand, to discuss a variety of topics centered around alien invasions in movies, literature, and pop culture. They share insights and personal favorites including ‘Independence Day,’ ‘The Thing,’ ‘Mars Attacks,’ and ‘Cloverfield,’ while also speculating on the Fermi Paradox, galactic policing, bioforming, and the potential implications of real-life alien encounters. They debate Jeff Goldblum’s versus Will Smith’s contributions to alien movies and who should receive the Ultimate Alien Person Award. Joe and Nick present a fun and informative discussion while enjoying their drinks, making geeky science relatable and entertaining.

Don’t forget to Rate the show!

artwork by

Georgia Geis @atomicnumber14https://www.instagram.com/atomic_number14/

Joe’s Show Notes:

00:00 Welcome Back to the Rabbit Hole

00:46 Alien Invasion Movies Galore

01:38 Drinks and Discussions

Joe and Nick are drink twinsies:
- Beer: Apathy is a Cold Body from Foreign Local
- Coffee: Cold Brew from Bean Me Up Roastery
- Water

05:45 The Fermi Paradox and Alien Theories

Enrico Fermi

11:34 Age of Universe

~13.7 Billion years

12:16 Alien Prometheus

Engineers

12:56 Pop Culture and Alien Invasions

18:05 Paul (2011) (Simon Peg film)

18:44 E.T. and Other Alien Scouts

19:20 Ray Bradbury: Zero Hour (1947)

20:09 Movie – Mac and Me (1988)

22:09 Joe gives RHR award for ultimate alien person goes to: Jeff Goldblum

Invasion of the Body Snatchers(1978)
The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai Across the 8th Dimension (1984)
Earth Girls Are Easy (1988)
Independence Day (1996)
Independence Day: Resurgence (2016)
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 2 (2017)
Asteroid City (2023)

22:50 Nick gives RHR award for ultimate alien person to Will Smith

23:25 Debating Jeff Goldblum’s Role in Independence Day Alien Defeat

24:19 Drunken Superheroes and Future Visions

Movie –Hancock (2008)
Book- Geoffrey Kerr -Under the Influence (1953)

25:05 Inviting Jeff Goldblum and Will Smith

25:37 Biological and Terraforming Alien Invasions

The Great Filter Theory
Berserker Probes
Zoo Hypothesis
The Dark Forest Theory
Resource Exploitation Theory
Interstellar Colonialism
Technological Singularity and Superintelligent AI
Galactic Policing and Ethical Intervention
Extraterrestrial Pathogens
Parasitic Aliens
Bioforming
Kinetic bombardment

26:10 The Day the Earth Stood Still Discussion

(1951)
(2008)

27:07 The Thing: A Beloved IP

27:56 Galactic Policing and Ethical Intervention

29:54 Predator and The Thing Crossover Idea

34:28 Intelligent Alien Life Forms

35:42 Alien Invasion Strategies and Movies

39:07 HG Wells war of the worlds (1898)

39:34 Robert Potter The Germ Growlers (1892)

41:11 Nick’s favorite Alien Invasion movie: Men in Black (1997)

42:47 Joes favorite Alien invasion movie: Cloverfield (2008)

42:47 Nick changes his mind and goes with District 9 (2009)

44:46 Final Thoughts and Farewell

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We dive into the realm of cybernetics, the possibility of advanced prosthetics, Biohacking, futuristic sci-fi scenarios like in RoboCop, and what it means to be human.

Joe’s Show Notes:

00:00 Welcome to the Basement Studio

00:27 Craft Beer Chat

01:08 Introduction to Cyborgs

1:17 Definition of Cyborg

01:49 Cyborgs in Pop Culture

04:17 Inspector Gadget and RoboCop (1987)

10:34 Bionic Eyes and Prosthetics

20:42 Exploring Robocop’s Directives

21:33 Treasure Planet‘s Cyborg Pirate

22:24 The Eyeborg Project

23:30 Biohacking and Grinders

24:18 Hearing Colors: An Artistic Innovation

25:15 Biomagnets and Body Modifications

26:57 Brain-Computer Interfaces and Neuralink

27:25 Wearable Medical Devices

31:47 Cyborg Insects and Environmental Monitoring

33:22 Ethical Questions in Cybernetics

36:39 Personal Cybernetic Enhancements

39:16 Concluding Thoughts and Future Possibilities

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Joe, Nick, and guest Michael Lynn talk about the science and handwavium of telepathy and telekinesis. Discussing everything from twins, government-funded research, brainwaves, to the truly bizarre.

Joe’s Show Notes:

00:00 Welcome to Episode 17

00:18 Meet Our Guest: Michael Lynn

01:09 Nick and Joe Communicated telepathically?

2:26 What are we Drinking?

03:44 The Science and Fiction of Telepathy

4:39 What is peer review?

4:49 Government Research and Historical Accounts

7:14 The ancient Indian Sanskrit epic Mahabharata

7:28 Jesus

8:17 1889 story “To Whom This May Come” by Edward Bellamy

8:48 Dr. Sleep (movie:2019)

10:45 fMRI- Functional Magnetic Resonance

11:51 The Concept of Twin Telepathy

12:31 Identical twins with similar brain structure

13:07 Genetic sequencing of telepaths and twin telepathy

15:22 Animal Communication and Brain Waves

16:33 Brainwaves

17:00 Brain Computer Interface (BCI) and Biophotonics

20:19 Japanese concept of “ishin-denshin“

26:18 Long Term exposure to microwaves

22:06 Theoretical Possibilities and Genetic Engineering

27:14 Organoid

28:29 Super-man story and Space Jesus

31:11 Telepathy and Corporate Espionage

32:10 Nick Cage movie Next (2007)

37:05 Telekinesis and Government Experiments

38:54 Sheep go to Heaven and Goats go to Hell

42:00 Telekinesis: it’s always about the Calories

47:31 Chicago Southside Makerspace

48:29 Francis E Deck

49:23 Nick Cage movie reference again

50:00 Monsters, Inc (2001)

50:22 Telepathy in Fiction and Pop Culture

53:59 Wrapping Up and Final Thoughts

Check out Michael’s Youtube channel: Rotoforge