A protective spell, witch hunts, flying ointments, Salem and bad rye bread, black cat myths, and witches from Rosemary’s Baby to Hocus Pocus.

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Episode 90 Transcript

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In Episode 90 of the Rabbit Hole of Research, Joe, Nick, and Georgia head back to the basement studio for the second episode in their month of horror. Returning guest Bill Halliar kicks things off with a protective spell, just in case. We talk about the Malleus Maleficarum, the numbers behind Salem and Europe’s witch hunts, the science of flying ointments and eating moldy rye bread, did the Pope really order black cats to be killed, and how witches have been portrayed in media, from Rosemary’s Baby to Hocus Pocus. And a Live Lobotomy…What???

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Where to find Bill Halliar:

Bill Halliar (@skeletongue)

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Georgia and Jim’s Touch of Noir 2027 Wall Calendar —

12 months of all-original art by Jim and Georgia; orders are open now, with mailing expected in September

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Check out what the RHR crew is creating:

Joe:

• Named by the Guild Literary Complex as one of the 35 Writers to Watch!
• Red Line: Chicago Horror Stories Anthology featuring a story by Joe!
• Joe’s Sci-fi physiological thriller Novel: Will You Still Love Me If I Become Someone Else?
• Joe’s Rom-Com Novella: Tomorrow May Be Too Late

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Future Events to Hang with the Crew:

Podcast Cross-Appearances

• Joe on GoIndieNow: 21grams with Joe Compton talking about villains.
• RHR Crew on This Podcast Will Change Your Life with Ben Tanzer

Events & Conventions:

Joe:

• Art show Ultrastructure: Science is Fun, with Carol Estes at Promise You Art House in Highland IN until Nov 7th, Closing reception November 6th, 6-8pm.
• Family Day: Seeing the Invisible World to Build a New One; in conjunction with the fall exhibition: teamLab: Everything Exists in Infinite Continuity, at the Smart Museum of Art In Hyde Park, IL, Nov 14th, 11-3pm
• Art and Science lecture about the Science of Zombies at Parlour and Ramp Art Gallery, 2130 W 21st St, Chicago, IL 60608, Dec 10th, 7-10pmGeorgia:
• The Inaugural 4th Street Print Fest exhibit at Chesterton Art Center is still up (go check out Georgia’s artwork and a panel with Georgia on Nov 7th). The exhibit goes until November 28th.
• Black, White and Gray Exhibition — Fulton Street Collective, Chicago

It’s Science for Weirdos

Want to support the show? Tell your friends. Follow us on social media, Discord, share the podcast, and let us know what topics you are excited about. Leave a Comment. And for email alerts sign-up for the Substack newsletter and never miss an episode, exciting updates or the bonus images we talk about on the episodes. 

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We discussed these questions on the episode and now want to Hear From You (leave a comment):

• Did you ever mix leaves, twigs, and rocks into a “potion” as a kid? 
• What’s your favorite witch or witchcraft in media: a movie, show, book, or comic?
• Did you grow up thinking witches were women and warlocks were men?

Drop your thoughts in the comments. We read them all, and your ideas often shape future episodes.

Leave a comment

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Future Episodes

• Episode 92: Surviving After the ApocalypseGuest: Wil McCarthy
• Episode 94: Doomsday series 1: Dr. Doom, Science and AlchemyGuest: Rengasayee (Sai) Veeraraghavan, PhD
• Episode 96: Doomsday series 2: Building Dr. Doom and His WorldGuest: Julio A. Guerra (@artedeguerra)
• Episode 98: Season 3 recapGuest: Alex and others TBA

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Show Notes & Fun Facts 

Stuff crew said they’d put in shownotes:

Books, comics, and plays

• Malleus Maleficarum: Heinrich Kramer, 1486/87 (Speyer, Germany)
• The Witch-Cult in Western Europe: Margaret Murray, 1921
• More Weight: A Salem Story (graphic novel): Ben Wickey
• From Hell (graphic novel): Alan Moore and Eddie Campbell, 1989/1999
• Witchcraft for Wayward Girls: Grady Hendrix, 2025
• The Southern Book Club’s Guide to Slaying Vampires: Grady Hendrix, 2020
• The Girls We Sent Away: Meagan Church,2024. 
• The Mad Wife: Meagan Church, 2025
• “Old Virginia” (short story): Laird Barron, collected in The Imago Sequence and Other Stories, 2007
• Conjure Wife: Fritz Leiber, 1943
• The Witches of Eastwick: John Updike, 1984, and the sequel The Widows of Eastwick, 2008 
• Practical Magic: Alice Hoffman, Putnam, 1995 
• The Dresden Files: Jim Butcher, beginning with Storm Front (2000) 
• Discworld series: Terry Pratchett, beginning with The Colour of Magic (1983). The witches debut in the third book in the series Equal Rites(1987)
• The Crucible (play): Arthur Miller, 1953 
• The Scarlet Letter (1850) and The House of the Seven Gables (1851): Nathaniel Hawthorne 
• The Handmaid’s Tale: Margaret Atwood, 1985 
• Dungeons & Dragons (tabletop RPG): Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson, published by Tactical Studies Rules, 1974

Films

• The Wizard of Oz (1939)
• Rosemary’s Baby (1968)
• The Wicker Man (1973)
• The Wicker Man (2006): starring Nicolas Cage
• The Thing (1982)
• The Witches of Eastwick (1987)
• Thelma & Louise (1991)
• Hocus Pocus (1993)
• Practical Magic (1998)
• The Blair Witch Project (1999)
• Ginger Snaps (2000)
• Ocean’s Thirteen (2007)
• ParaNorman (2012)
• The Conjuring (2013)
• The Witch (2015)
• Hereditary (2018)
• Weapons (2025)
• Practical Magic 2 (2026)
• Lady and the Tramp (1955): Disney

TV

• Bewitched: ABC, 1964–1972
• Charlie’s Angels: ABC, 1976–1981
• Halloweentown (TV movie): Disney Channel, 1998 
• Buffy the Vampire Slayer: The WB/UPN, 1997–2003 
• Gilmore Girls: The WB/The CW, 2000–2007 
• American Horror Story: Coven (Season 3): FX, 2013
• WandaVision: Disney+, 2021 
• Agatha All Along: Disney+, 2024 
• Widow’s Bay: Apple TV, 2026. 

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Fun Facts to Impress Your Friends With or Win Trivia:

1. The “flying ointment” was real. The salves were fatty mixtures made from nightshade-family plants like deadly nightshade and henbane. They contain tropane alkaloids (atropine, scopolamine, hyoscyamine). Eating the plants can kill you, but absorbed through the skin they can cause sensations of flying and falling, along with vivid dissociative hallucinations. Technically a deliriants, a different class from classic psychedelics.
2. Salem and the moldy rye bread theory. Ergot is a fungus that grows on damp rye. It produces alkaloids that are chemical cousins of LSD. In 1976 researcher Linnda Caporael proposed that tainted rye explained the Salem accusers’ fits, but most historians now consider it largely discredited. The symptoms, timing, and pattern of accusations track social and political rivalries much better than moldy bread.
3. The Black Death was a flea problem, not a cat problem. Yersinia pestis was carried by fleas, and the plague spread through multiple routes, helped by poor sanitation, malnutrition, and dense trade routes. Pope Gregory IX’s 1233 letter Vox in Rama never ordered cats killed. There’s no credible evidence of a church-directed cat cull, so the “Pope killed the cats and caused the plague” story is a myth and gave black cats a bad rap.

Episode Highlights

• 00:00 Basement Studio Roll Call: Joe welcomes everyone back to the basement studio for the month of horror, and Bill Hallier joins as a three-peat guest.
• 01:37 Spooky Season Witches: Joe sets up the topic, pointing out that witches and their iconography are everywhere this time of year.
• 02:14 Protective Spell Intro: Bill recites a mock protective spell to shield listeners from “the evil spell” they’re about to hear, and the studio lights promptly flicker.
• 04:58 What Is Witchcraft: Joe explains that witchcraft is usually defined as an innate ability to help or harm through supernatural means, while sorcery is a learned technique.
• 06:27 Warlocks And Semantics: Georgia asks if warlocks are just male witches, and Joe says the word carries a “corrupted bargain” undertone of a pact with the devil.
• 09:15 Malleus Maleficarum Origins: the 1487 Malleus Maleficarum by Heinrich Kramer, a misogynistic witch-hunting handbook that even the Catholic Church criticized.
• 11:47 Salem Trials And Numbers: Salem lasted about 15 months with 200 accused, 30 convicted and 19 hanged, and nobody was burned, while Europe saw roughly 100,000 trials.
• 15:35 Why Witch Hunts Happen: Little Ice Age crop failures created a need for scapegoats, and some historians argue the hunts were a tool to break women’s economic independence.
• 16:46 Modern Witch Hunts Today: witch hunts still happen in places like Tanzania, Nigeria and New Guinea, often targeting elderly women or children with albinism.
• 18:28 Pop Culture Witch Journey: Bill traces his path from shrugging off the Wicked Witch of the West to Margaret Murray’s invented ancient cult and Lovecraft, and then to realizing how much of the genre is built on accusations against the powerless.
• 26:49 Spotting A Witch Tests: Joe lists the “toolkit” of the devil’s mark, familiars, the rigged swimming test and the Sabbat.
• 29:52 Buying Spells Online: Nick discovers you can order a love spell or a $9.99 money spell on eBay, which sends the group to urban fantasy and The Dresden Files.
• 31:40 Black Cats And Plague Myth: Joe debunks the story that the Pope’s 1233 bull set off mass cat killings and fueled the Black Death, since the real document targeted a specific sect and never ordered cats killed.
• 34:56 Science Behind Witch Lore: Georgia want real science and Joe brings up the “flying ointment” made from nightshade and absorbed through the skin could produce sensations of flight and falling.
• 38:10 Salem Ergot Theory Debunked: s Linnda Caporael’s 1976 theory that moldy rye bread caused the Salem fits, which is now largely discredited because it doesn’t match the symptoms or the social pattern of the accusations.
• 41:28 More Weight Pressing Story: Bill tells how Giles Corey refused to enter a plea and was pressed to death, answering “more weight,” so his land stayed with his family.
• 43:34 Fear Politics And Scapegoats: trials correlated with cold periods, crop failures and economic competition, with older, poor or widowed women hit hardest.
• 45:12 Satanic Panic Memories: Bill remembers hiding his Dungeons & Dragons books under the bed and says police interviews were great at convincing kids that something happened.
• 45:33 Coerced Confessions: Nick describes how leading questions, no sleep and hours in a room make you “say anything you can to get out of that room.”
• 46:46 Mass Hysteria Explained: mass psychogenic illness, a conversion disorder that spreads through a socially bonded group under stress.
• 47:46 Stockholm Syndrome Debate: Nick asks whether children in Satanic Panic interviews experienced something like Stockholm syndrome, and Bill explains how it differs from a kidnapping.
• 49:05 Witchcraft in Horror: Joe says that horror usually portrays witchcraft as a negative force, examples like The Witch, Hereditary, Rosemary’s Baby and The Conjuring.
• 52:39 Wicker Man and Witch Films: The group debates the 1973 Wicker Man against the Nicolas Cage remake (“Not the bees!”), and Georgia calls Rosemary’s Baby one of her favorite movies.
• 53:24 The Witch Deep Dive: Bill and Georgia praise Robert Eggers’ The Witch for echoing Salem, with children as accusers and open questions about what the film is saying.
• 56:13 Witchy Childhood and Potions: Nick asks whether Georgia mixed leaves and twigs as a kid, then admits he has a cast-iron cauldron.
• 59:03 Wicca as Real Religion: Wicca is a real modern religion, founded by Gerald Gardner in 1954, and distinct from both historical accusations and fictional witches.
• 01:01:03 Iceland Fairy Rocks: Joe says about 90% of Iceland’s accused witches were men, and Bill recalls roads built around rocks where the fairies might dance.
• 01:02:56 Pop Culture Witch Roundup: The group covers American Horror Story: Coven, Wanda Maximoff and Agatha All Along, Bewitched, and the witches of Terry Pratchett’s Discworld.
• 01:05:47 Wizard of Oz Witch Template: Joe says the 1939 film set the template for the green-skinned, pointy-hatted witch, even though the hat was actually a Puritan fashion, and Bill recommends ParaNorman.
• 01:09:46 Books and Female Friendship: After a detour through The Witches of Eastwick and Practical Magic and the scarcity of female-friendship movies, Georgia shows off the Subterranean Press edition of Grady Hendrix’s Witchcraft for Wayward Girls.
• 01:12:09 Salem Dogs Tragedy: Joe shares that two dogs were killed during the Salem hysteria by residents who believed they were witch familiars.
• 01:13:56 Favorite Witch Media Picks: Georgia picks Ruth Gordon in Rosemary’s Baby, Bill picks Laird Barron’s “Old Virginia” and the graphic novel More Weight, Nick picks Hocus Pocus, and Joe picks The Blair Witch Project, with a nod to Widow’s Bay and Aunt Gladys from Weapons.
• 01:20:41 Wrap Up and Next Topics: Nick thanks Bill for his three-peat and pencils him in for a future episode, and Bill pencils himself in for his fourth appearance to talk about D&D and the occult.

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“Stay curious, stay safe… Love Y’all!”

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Transcript

00:00:00 joe: Hey, welcome back to the Rabbit Hole of Research down here in the basement studio for the month of horror.

[00:00:10] Georgia: Ooh. Ooh

[00:00:12] Bill: treat.

[00:00:12] Nick: on you.

Oh,

[00:00:15] joe: down here in the basement studio. You’re

[00:00:17] Bill: down here than

I- remember, guys.

[00:00:18] joe: here

[00:00:18] Nick: really did some d- redecorating.

You

[00:00:21] joe: got me,

Joe.

[00:00:22] Nick: You got

Nick.

You got Nick.

[00:00:23] Georgia: Georgia.

[00:00:24] joe: got Georgia,

[00:00:25] Nick: hey, we got a- Special guest … special

[00:00:26] joe: guest.

[00:00:27] Bill: Hi, Bill Hallier.

[00:00:28] Georgia: Hallier.

[00:00:28] Nick: we seen you before?

[00:00:30] Bill: I might have been here.

[00:00:31] joe: here. He’s been

here.

[00:00:32] Bill: Hiding.

[00:00:34] joe: and I wanna-

[00:00:34] Nick: You haven’t left.

[00:00:36] joe: He’s just been living

in the basement studio- Oh … in the

[00:00:39] Georgia: been living in the studio. Oh, Bill’s still here.

[00:00:39] Nick: Yeah.

[00:00:40] Bill: Every time something goes missing from that little fridge-

upstairs-

[00:00:43] joe: Yeah.

[00:00:44] Bill: it’s been me.

[00:00:45] joe: I was gonna say that when David Pincus was on, he became the first three-peat guest. Oh. And yourself and Melissa from Reed’s Local are also three-peat guests. Oh, good. [00:01:00] And so- Yeah … David, he’s petitioning to get an episode- … right at the beginning of season four.

So, and y- yourself and Melissa usually does the, the horror episodes.

You guys come on and anchor us in towards the end of the year. So- Yeah … I don’t know. It’s like now this,

Competition … this

competition

happening, so I just want everyone to know where they’re at in the

[00:01:17] Bill: The

three-peat. What is

You got three-peat? What is the four? Four.

[00:01:22] Nick: think it’s still

four-peat I

[00:01:23] joe: a four-peat,

yeah.

I don’t know if they get creative after

[00:01:26] Nick: do They go turkey after that, right?

[00:01:28] joe: They go turkey? after that, right? They go turkey?

Yeah. Oh, I don’t know.

[00:01:30] Georgia: Oh,

[00:01:30] Bill: ’cause of the five.

fingers? Yeah.

[00:01:31] joe: I

[00:01:32] Bill: see.

[00:01:32] Nick: Yeah. Yeah.

All

[00:01:33] joe: see. Yeah.

Yeah. All right.

Well, we’ll cross

those roads when we get there. Let’s

let’s focus in.

This episode here, we’re gonna be talking about witches that was kind of here in, in spooky season.

Witches are everywhere, and- Mm-hmm … you see their iconology and things like that. So yeah, we’re gonna dig in. But I, in this episode, don’t have a monologue,

but-

[00:01:53] Nick: Is it ’cause someone put a spell on you?

[00:01:56] joe: Okay.

Yeah.

[00:01:57] Georgia: That’s- You used

[00:01:58] Bill: You

used that one so

[00:01:58] joe: know, right.

Yeah.

[00:01:59] Nick: [00:02:00] Listen, I’ve already used it twice.

[00:02:01] Georgia: right out the gate. Right

[00:02:02] joe: out the gate we’re there. But it sound like Bill, before we started, he had something up his sleeve ready to go, so.

[00:02:10] Nick: Go ahead, bewitch us.

[00:02:12] Bill: his Ladies

to go, so. Go ahead, Bill, witch us. Ladies and gentlemen,

the podcast you’re about to hear contains an evil spell, as used by practitioners of witchcraft for centuries.

Even today,

in many parts of the world, people practice black magic and witchcraft.

Charms, amulets, amulets, voodoo candles, grave dirt, and locks of hair are believed to ward off evil spirits and spells. You may doubt the effectiveness of these spells, but through every civilization, people have believed in witches. Could they all be wrong? don’t I don’t think so, for I have seen its power proved too many times.

I am now about to dispel all evil spirits that may radiate from the speaker during this performance. [00:03:00] Oh, creator of Hecate,

Damkina, marduk’s messenger, Tempkera, Ra neemu,

Beelzebub in the netherworld, Satan in Gehenna,

controller of the 7,007 curses and talismans, and who is known to obedient disciples as Gangida, hold all your powers and those of your do-bidders

and their familiars, and cast a protecting shield above those gathered here present. Pull back from any airy bodies those vested with evil. Grant, oh magnificent one, no harm from the spells about

to be heard. Direct them not. This faithful servant begs for thy favor.

Ihtefa inae ina’e zet. now, with a free mind and a protected soul, we ask you to enjoy the Rabbit Hole of Research.

[00:03:56] joe: research. Nice. Yeah.

Man.

[00:03:59] Nick: The [00:04:00] voices in my

head

have stopped. “What did you do? Really. I also think I have to leave.

now. like- something is pulling me.

[00:04:06] Bill: ran out.

[00:04:06] joe: lights are- ……My

[00:04:07] Nick: is tingling.

[00:04:09] joe: Lights are flickering on and off. The sensor

light just kind of flicked off and-

[00:04:13] Georgia: off and,

[00:04:13] joe: even though we’re all …sitting here.

[00:04:15] Nick: You did a great job.

with that.

Thank you. I was so impressed.

Yeah,

[00:04:19] joe: yeah.

[00:04:19] Nick: That’s…

[00:04:19] Bill: I love that stuff. It’s so fun.

[00:04:22] joe: It is. No, but,

I

[00:04:25] Bill: it protects

us. I hope it protects all the listeners at home, in their car, doing their

laundry, you know? ‘ that’s the last thing you want is to be accidentally bewitched.

[00:04:34] joe: No. You don’t wanna be bewitched.

[00:04:36] Nick: now I can easily t- bring up Robert The Doll right? Is that what the episode- Oh, yeah … we’re talking about?

[00:04:42] joe: We’re not talking about Robert Taddeo.

[00:04:44] Nick: I don’t know why You guys never let me talk about Robert. No. No. No.

[00:04:47] Georgia: he-

[00:04:49] Bill: I don’t know Robert the Doll. Who’s Robert the

[00:04:50] Georgia: Who read them? Oh, gosh what We’ll talk about them Yeah. We

can’t.

[00:04:53] Nick: have an episode next season about it. No, we

[00:04:55] Georgia: No we won’t.

[00:04:56] joe: So

yeah, just,

Witch- [00:05:00] witchcraft came up there, and that’s It’s usually defined as a belief that certain people can cause help or harm through supernatural means, not necessarily through a ritual. That’s more like sorcery. And so sorcery would be learned technique. Witchcraft is innate

[00:05:19] Bill: Oh, interesting. I don’t know that I’ve ever heard

that distinction

[00:05:22] Georgia: in

[00:05:23] joe: I don’t know that I’ve ever heard that distinction. In Eng- everyday English, kind of looking this up, it’s used… They’re used pretty interchangeably now, but there were historically, and so we’ll maybe get more into this and how it got there, but European history, witch was a legal and religious accusation- Mm-hmm

that became there. And so,

and there’s no unified, at that time which religion being persecuted. It was just a label applied to a huge range of actual behaviors: folk healing, midwifery- Being a

[00:05:50] Nick: So mainly women, right? …

[00:05:52] joe: a neighbor, having unexplained illness or simply being an unmarried, widowed, older woman. So you have that. Yeah. That’s totally-

[00:05:58] Georgia: So it’s always referred to… [00:06:00] women.

[00:06:00] joe: It’s

not necessarily referred to women, and actually something I… When I looked this up and get into some of this, there were a, a number of men who were also persecuted under witch- … witchcraft kind of label. And so you can have that. Definition is not…

It’s gender neutral-esque, like,

…but

women generally are the… Especially European. I mean, the European witch hunts and witch trials were mostly women, but there were men also in

[00:06:27] Georgia: the term warlock Is

that related? I don’t know why I thought witches were women and warlocks were men.

Is that-

[00:06:35] Nick: honestly believe that as well.

[00:06:37] Bill: That’s that school ground, you know?

Yeah, “Don’t call me a witch, I’m a warlock.”

Shit,

[00:06:42] joe: I’m a…

[00:06:42] Bill: man.

[00:06:42] Nick: Yeah.

[00:06:43] Georgia: a warlock. Yeah.

[00:06:45] joe: Yeah,

I mean,

I think you have that term where warlocks are considered, like, a male witch, but I don’t…

[00:06:53] Georgia: And that might’ve been, like- because there

is so much …negative associated with [00:07:00] women and witchcraft and witches. Maybe it was like, “Oh, we need another word for us ’cause we’re guys,

and-

Okay. I don’t know, maybe.

[00:07:08] Bill: be lumped in with all the ladies.

[00:07:10] joe: and I think

the- …

interesting here

[00:07:12] Nick: like that? … the semantics …

[00:07:13] joe: notes I had that the warlock it- it’s a corrupted bargain undertone.

Oh.

[00:07:19] Nick: And that that- So w- warlock was a deal made with

[00:07:21] joe: devil …right, with the devil kind of thing. A pact. A demon, a fiend, or other worldly,

[00:07:25] Nick: you, that’s where you draw your power.

from.

[00:07:28] joe: Yep.

[00:07:28] Georgia: that- but it’s- … that is pretty different, then.

[00:07:30] joe: it’s pretty different then … pretty different, but it does show up just as a neutral synonym for male witch also. And I think maybe historically in American culture, Bewitched, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, they used the term warlock to mean male witch. But historically, that, that’s not its definition.

It’s kinda like the, sorcery and it, they get, they just get interchanged now because we’ve lost the historical context of these things. But yeah, the warlock just culturally been a, a male witch.

And in D&D I [00:08:00] think warlocks

[00:08:00] Bill: a- Mm-hmm …

[00:08:02] joe: Kind of lean into the original meaning of a, a pact.

[00:08:07] Bill: I was wondering, I, m- I didn’t come across it. I ended up doing, look- looking at a bunch of pop culture stuff.

[00:08:14] joe: Yeah.

[00:08:15] Bill: But I’ve, I was wondering when, obviously all these things that were witchcraft, they’re all labeled witchery, like you said, healers and, and the like. That was all stuff all sorts of people did forever people did forever

up to a certain point.

When did things start… W- when did it go from, “Oh, I go down there and, you know, Agnes Nutter makes me a poultice that helps my arm,” go from that to, like, “She’s making a tincture to make my cows sick.”

[00:08:48] joe: yeah. Yeah. Like,

[00:08:49] Georgia: where does it,

[00:08:49] Bill: where does it change from, “She’s doing good for us,” to “She’s a witch and she’s gotta be hanged,” you know?

[00:08:56] Nick: I thought they were burned at the stake- or drowned.

[00:08:59] joe: [00:09:00] No …actually,

[00:09:00] Bill: most witches were hung

from what

I’ve seen. Right. yeah, burned at the stake. There’s very few

[00:09:05] Nick: that was like, the, just the most- effective way that they-

could

[00:09:07] joe: them. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

[00:09:08] Nick: Just- all right. I mean, I feel like that’s just a general

thing

[00:09:11] Bill: them in a row

[00:09:12] Nick: kills humans. Mm-hmm. Like-

[00:09:15] joe: I think one of, one of the things that I had found was a document from 1487,

[00:09:21] Nick: The

[00:09:22] joe: the Malleus Maleficarum, Ma- Malle- Malleus

[00:09:25] Bill: Ah, yes … Mali- Malleus

[00:09:26] Nick: Malle- Malleus

[00:09:28] joe: Maleficarum The Hammer of

[00:09:28] Bill: The Hammer of Witches

Yeah.

[00:09:29] joe: that, right. So that was kinda this text and probably some say the most influential witch hunting text that was there. And it was this

really weird thing in that you would have very misogynistic,

[00:09:39] Georgia: misogynistic.

[00:09:40] joe: In, in this whole thing.

[00:09:41] Georgia: was- No, You’re

[00:09:42] joe: Yeah the devils.

And yeah, it was there. And it was kind of interesting because the Catholic Church actually criticized parts of it as theologically unsound and unethical in its methods. I mean-

[00:09:54] Nick: wait, I have to read this now.

Where do I find this?

[00:09:56] joe: sure you can find a copy

[00:09:58] Bill: on the internet

for sure.

[00:09:59] joe: that’s it [00:10:00] probably.

[00:10:00] Georgia: Internet

[00:10:01] Nick: they’re against it.

Yeah.

I sorta

[00:10:03] Bill: Latin translation.

[00:10:04] joe: And some of it was

the,

like the…

I think a lot of people think it was the switch, especially with Christianity kind of coming in. But actually one of the things I had read was that the… that transition, they actually rejected witches and witchcraft because God was the ultimate power.

So you couldn’t go… that you had these other people with innate abilities that would rival. And so it took a little bit, but then eventually then you started getting to heresy when that started coming along, and then it became… It went from this kind of helping or making tinctures or doing these kind of helpful things

to accusatory.

It started to have legal, you know, kind of persecution with it, and really it was just out

[00:10:46] Nick: just,

[00:10:47] Georgia: just

[00:10:48] joe: You just want… You didn’t like somebody, like I said, you would go, “They’re a witch.” And then you would have to… you would go through these things to try to prove if they’re a witch or not,

so.

[00:10:57] Nick: did they actually try to prove it, or did they [00:11:00] just go, “These are some random things that I’m gonna ask you, and I think you’re a witch already, so it’s pretty much a done deal”?

[00:11:07] Bill: The Malleus

Maleficarum has like, has some of that in there, right? It says , “Here’s what witches do, and here’s what you do to find-” out witches. And here’s also what you should do- once you’ve found out they’re witches.” It was like a whole handbook for sniffing them out and then dealing with them.

[00:11:24] joe: After that,

[00:11:24] Georgia: Who wrote this book?

Do we know?

[00:11:28] Bill: know? A German.

[00:11:29] joe: Yeah,

it- was. And I, actually

have

[00:11:31] Georgia: guess it was a …

man. Heinrich Kramer …

[00:11:33] joe: yep. I was like, I have it in my notes. That sounds right.

I

[00:11:36] Bill: it was published in Germany in 1486. I just remembered that …1487,

[00:11:41] joe: yep.

[00:11:41] Bill: in there. Yeah.

[00:11:43] joe: Yep. Heinrich Kramer,

[00:11:45] Bill: And then the,

[00:11:46] Georgia: th-

[00:11:47] Bill: one always comes up and then the, the Boys from Salem. The,

what are they Cotton Mather and Increase Mather.

[00:11:53] joe: Mather

[00:11:54] Bill: Both wrote books about witches and how to s- you know, s- spot [00:12:00] them and deal with them. All

rolled up in

that

whole American Salem witchcraft

[00:12:06] Nick: stuff.

Yeah.

I, Yeah.

that, th- that’s always Such a shocking situation to know that was part of our history. It really is. Like,

I do believe that a lot of that was due to land.

[00:12:20] Bill: Yeah, it does feel

that way. Like- some historians say definitely not. But then you look at

the land- where the land went from the people who were accused of being

witches and hung, and it all sorta s- started pooling with the people that accused them of being witches. Whoa And that does seem a little odd. Well, and

[00:12:38] Georgia: Well, and you just look at anyth- any time in history when somebody is like, “Oh, look over there, bad people.”

And then, you know, so that you can do whatever the hell you want. you know? Exactly. Yeah.

[00:12:50] joe: So

That, the Salem witch trials it lasted 15 months approximately. 200 people were accused, 30 [00:13:00] convicted, 19 were hanged. One man was pressed to death.

[00:13:03] Georgia: Nobody was burnt. Trials- No one was burnt,

[00:13:06] joe: No one.

That was, that’s a, that

that imagery is usually- That’s like a European thing … it had continental European things. So they did, there were places like Europe, it wasn’t even. There were some places that

went after witches in Europe, especially like kind of germany- hundreds-

and, you know, these countries like that.

Hundreds and

[00:13:22] Georgia: and hundreds.

[00:13:23] joe: you had-

[00:13:24] Georgia: People

were

[00:13:25] joe: Yeah,

I mean, historians say somewhere around there was 100,000 formal witch trials in Europe between 1400 and 1780

1780 resulting in, you know, the center is somewhere around 50,000. You know, there’s some, you know, between 40 and

60,000, right?

But you have that. It was, like I said, it was uneven. About three quarters of Europe saw no witch trials at all. The craze is really centered in the Holy Roman Empire by the modern Germany, Switzerland, France border regions.

[00:13:54] Georgia: did I

think Ireland?

I don’t know.

[00:13:56] Bill: yeah, ‘

Cause it’s such a magical

[00:13:58] Georgia: Yeah,

[00:13:58] joe: Ireland. It’s a magical place. Yeah, right. That’s

kind of feels like [00:14:00] witches

would be there. No, I and then

roughly 75 to 80% of the accused were women. Male victims run 20, 25%. Germany alone, they had about 16,500 documented trials, 7,000 executions. So that was the numbers there.

So really it was

this

[00:14:15] Nick: How many trials?

[00:14:16] joe: In Germany alone, about 16,500 documented trials. Oh.

[00:14:21] Nick: Oh. So yeah.

Interesting.

[00:14:23] joe: All together it was about 100,000 formal witch trials in these kind of, this, this time period, this kind of 300, 400 years that this lasted. And,

[00:14:33] Georgia: you know, I wonder why it

[00:14:34] joe: there were… Oh, go ahead

[00:14:35] Georgia: Oh, no. I was just gonna say, I wonder why it was such a short-lived thing in in, america.

or-

[00:14:42] joe: Oh,

in

the Salem, that was interesting. It kind of, fizzled out- …

When the the governor’s own wife was accused.

Exactly. And then the colony pulled back. So that

was

[00:14:52] Bill: have any, like,

[00:14:53] joe: I don’t know if we have, like- You know? Yeah …historical,

[00:14:54] Georgia: like,

[00:14:55] Nick: documents

[00:14:55] Bill: to prove this, but I feel like in most cases, that [00:15:00] kind of thing is

what

[00:15:01] joe: That is… Yes.

[00:15:02] Georgia: Like, it

[00:15:02] Bill: reaches its height, and then somebody says, “Hey, I accuse-“

the mayor. I accuse his wife. And they’re like,

Hold up.” “

Yeah Pull back on this witch thing.” “Maybe it’s not

cool”

[00:15:10] Nick: are nonsense. And so

[00:15:12] joe: And so they, the burning was more common in Scotland and on the continent of Europe.

So Scotland is maybe where you’re

[00:15:18] Georgia: Maybe that’s what I’m thinking, of. yeah, even, and, Ireland But

[00:15:20] joe: yeah, you probably

had it there, but Europe was the… Continental Europe was the, the hub, was the there. But you were asking, it was kind of interesting. So you had the document, the Malleus Maleficarum, which I’m, I am just gonna say that how many times in different ways.

But in

other things in this time period, like you had the, a little ice age, which caused a lot of crop failures, needed scapegoats. Mm-hmm. There you go.

[00:15:43] Bill: to blame.

[00:15:43] joe: Yeah. And then there was, like, some feminist historians that argued that the witch hunts were a deliberate tool of early capitalism to break women’s economic independence and control r- reproduction.

[00:15:55] Nick: I’d believe

that, too. Oh, I-

[00:15:56] joe: this was, like, kind of-

…Interesting … it’s contested. Like there’s, you know,

[00:16:00] historians debate that, but that is another

theory about

[00:16:03] Georgia: I mean-

[00:16:04] joe: especially at this time period where you had

[00:16:06] Nick: I bet those are men who are- disputing these.

[00:16:09] joe: these. I betcha.

[00:16:11] Georgia: I mean, and you

[00:16:12] Bill: You mean warlocks? … if you think

about-

[00:16:14] Nick: women. Yeah. Yes.

[00:16:15] Georgia: You think about seeing women hung, , in some public spot, I mean, that’s

gonna curb a lot of, you know- Right,

right. “No. Okay. I think I’ll get in line Like, i, my head I think of Handmaid’s Tale.

Mm-hmm. I think it’s the same-

[00:16:31] joe: Mm-hmm …

[00:16:34] Georgia: thing. And Margaret Atwood based everything in her book on actual events, actual things that happened. Yep. yep. So I wouldn’t be surprised if she did pull from- Mm-hmm … The Salem witch- Oh …

trials.

[00:16:46] joe: yeah. And I will say the other thing that I found, which I…

There’s so many crazy things in the world I, some things go missed, but there still are modern witch hunts. Yes. They’re… and especially in Sub-Saharan Africa.

Mm-hmm.

Tanzania, [00:17:00] Nigeria New Guinea. They often target elderly women or children with disabilities or Oh,

[00:17:05] Bill: Al-

[00:17:05] Nick: Of

albinism

[00:17:06] joe: albinoism

So-

[00:17:06] Bill: That’s the thing that always cracks me up in many of these tales, is, like, this person here, for whatever reason, has power, so we have to be wary of them and take them out.

That old lady who lives by herself

in a

[00:17:20] Georgia: a hut-

[00:17:20] joe: hut- Right,

[00:17:21] Bill: can barely

sustain

[00:17:23] joe: she is

[00:17:23] Bill: she is m- super powerful. Let’s go kill

her. Right. You know? She’s- g- Right … why wouldn’t

she use her power to do anything for herself? Right. Yeah. There’s no outwardly… You would think, like, the rich guy obviously has power.

He is using it to spin flax into gold or, you know, make sure that his crops yield. But no, it’s the people that are weak and-

Yeah … have nothing that always become the- That’s

[00:17:46] Georgia: That’s ’cause they can’t fight back,

[00:17:48] Nick: focus for this.

You know?

I think that’s the main thing.

You act like you- have more power then after that.

[00:17:52] Georgia: And then, the, it’s, like, that almost just totally sums up a lot of the… I don’t wanna bring up politics,

[00:17:58] Nick: I mean- maybe- it’s

[00:17:59] Georgia: may- Yeah, [00:18:00] that’s what this- But-

……But- We do

[00:18:02] Nick: yeah it’s just witches. But- …

[00:18:03] Georgia: But the thing is, I feel like that happens every day when we’re talking about, like, immigrant rights- and …things. It’s like, oh yeah, those very poor people that have absolutely almost nothing, they’re the ones that are making your life- miserable. It’s not the billionaires that are, you know-

[00:18:22] Nick: The trillionaire now?

Yeah. Exactly,

[00:18:24] Georgia: So it’s exactly the same thing.

[00:18:26] Nick: Well, this

actually-

[00:18:27] Bill: Yeah.

[00:18:27] Georgia: this

[00:18:28] Nick: is…

[00:18:28] Bill: thing. Well, this- is- Yeah …actually, …this is, I’ve come to recently over the past couple years, this is sort of my jour- I’ve had a journey with witches. Like, I started off as a kid, couldn’t care less about witches. You know, the,

[00:18:39] Nick: Really? … green faces, Oh, boy … the, like,

The neon green- Wizard

[00:18:42] joe: of

Oz …

[00:18:43] Bill: the Wizard of Oz.

I’m like, “

Ah, witches? Who cares? Yeah. That- doesn’t interest me at all.

And then I got older, and I got, I came across some cooler stories, , and with witches were portrayed as sort of, like, more like,

There’s a book by Murray, Witch Cults in,

[00:19:00] the Witch Cult in Western Europe, this woman named Margaret Murray wrote.

And she, based on very little evidence, wrote this whole thing about, oh, this is how witches work, and they’re actually this ancient cult that’s been passed down, since antiquity, and they have these, all these rules, and that’s where we get, like,

a coven of 13,

and we get all these i- you know, all these modern ideas- Right

are things that she made up from reading, , transcripts from the witch trials- and took hold in the popular culture. that’s the stuff that got me. I’m like, oh, the idea of this, like, ancient cult that’s been around forever, that are, like, lurking behind the scenes and manipulating things, that I really got into.

[00:19:45] Georgia: Now tell me again, how did you discover that and how old were you? Like-

[00:19:49] Bill: … so that was probably, well, I was, I started reading Lovecraft.

H.P. Lovecraft. …In my teens, my early teens, and he subscribed to her ideas. He [00:20:00] even mentions her in a couple stories- …talking about these ancient cults and unspeakable rites carried out under a full moon, and that kind of a thing.

And I’m ” like, Oh, that’s

[00:20:08] Nick: cool.”

And

[00:20:08] Bill: that got me into more, like, cosmic horror. And there

are, like,

great authors like Fritz Leiber did this wonderful story, the– called The

Conjure Wife.

And there’s a modern guy, Laird Barron, I love, that does such cool witch stories. You know, very creepy. And they’re these, the witches are-

You don’t get a leg up on the witches, you know?

You only think you do because they’re allowing you to, and then as soon as they’re done with you, you, it’s over, you know? And they’re so cool. It’s really interesting, but it is as I have learned more and grown older and seen that, oh, all of these ideas are really just, like, to put women in their place,

to put- …poor people …in their place, to take ad-advantage of already disadvantaged people, [00:21:00] it really s- it, it really, like, sours the stories. And I go back and look at these stories written and They’re horror stories. They’re written s-to scare you. But, like, everything that’s levied against the witch is something that’s like, “Oh, that’s exactly what you would say if you wanted

[00:21:17] joe: Yeah

[00:21:17] Bill: to kill somebody and take their land. That’s exactly what you would accuse

somebody of- …if you wanted to get a whole group of people against them. And that has really

That’s kind of, tainted my whole enjoyment

story as ,

Of the… genre, you know? right. Yeah. And it’s-

it’s interesting, ’cause it’s something that I, you know, you need to know and you need to deal

with. But it is it’s just sad how badly these people were treated, you know? A, a couple months ago, I read a really good graphic novel called More Weight. It’s this huge doorstop of a graphic novel- oh, damn that is heavily researched. It’s about the Salem witch trials. Mm-hmm. And, A

bunch of the text from [00:22:00] the trials are actually straight from the transcriptions.

Oh. Right?

So the things that people are

[00:22:04] Nick: other- That …is cool

[00:22:06] Bill: like

right word for word out of the transcriptions. So it’s like, oh, that’s, really close.

And it’s just so sad. Yeah. And insane to see these things, you know, like play out, where just a handful of young girls start saying, “This person is persecuting me in the night.” And her dad is like, “

She’s got some land for… Yeah, she… Yeah, she is in… Huh? Let’s let’s do something about that. That’s terrible. That’s really terrible.”

[00:22:38] joe: Yeah. I think,, one of the other things, there’s a couple things I wanna touch on, that, you have this dynamic where, the witches often embodies body horror or aging fears- … Decay, transformation which is really interesting ’cause it’s different than other monsters that we have.

‘Cause this one is very female specific- … And

[00:22:57] Georgia: I- female human, female … female human, yeah.

[00:22:59] joe: [00:23:00] That’s right, yeah. So, but yeah, you have it, the fear, the unlicensed knowledge, power- … kind of we gotta keep ’em under control,

[00:23:07] Georgia: The horror of a woman It really- …growing old

[00:23:10] joe: And e- even

in that

time-

They had knowledge. They were healers. Yeah. Herbalists. They did have this kind of understanding of the natural world that other people didn’t, and that, that was a fearful thing, that knowledge to have there. So, that was interesting. Y- and a coven like you said, really up until 1921 when that, that book was written, there was no…

Coven really was, it just meant to gather. Mm-hmm. And then the 13 was based off of one particular trial, and that w- historically, that was it, and that was just some people thought they saw 13 women gathering. But really there was no other evidence or anything like that,

[00:23:47] Georgia: because I always think of the number 13 to mean You know, like Friday the 13th. or, you know- I don’t know … 13.

[00:23:54] Bill: and

[00:23:54] joe: and I think that’s why,

Yeah, that, 21. Yeah, I mean, that’s-

[00:23:57] Georgia: came from then, or

did the number 13 [00:24:00] carry something, even before?

[00:24:02] joe: There was… This is where it all comes from, this Margaret’s Murray’s book. And she made a basis for the number 13 being this kind

[00:24:09] Georgia: this kind of- And then why did

[00:24:10] joe: go-

Said in that,

[00:24:11] Georgia: I wonder why We started thinking Friday the 13th.

was…

Anyway, I’m

[00:24:15] joe: Yeah. No, that’s

interest- … That’s a different … Yeah.

[00:24:17] Bill: numbers in

[00:24:17] joe: kind …Right.

[00:24:18] Bill: Like-

[00:24:18] Nick: Just,

[00:24:19] Georgia: just- Yeah

[00:24:20] joe: You go and, you have that. So that’s,

[00:24:22] Bill: I read… I knew about H- Margaret Murray’s

book, but when I was looking that stuff up, I saw that she wrote the entry in the Encyclopedia Britannica for witches.

[00:24:33] joe: Really? Wow.

[00:24:34] Bill: it was- Wow

[00:24:34] Georgia: the,

[00:24:36] Bill: it was the, you know- Definition … the go-to definition for witches for, like, almost 20 years.

[00:24:41] Nick: And

[00:24:42] Bill: that was, like, the ’40s through the ’60s or whatever. If you wanted to f- know what a witch was, you read Margaret Murray’s definition for a witch is in the Encyclopedia- Wow

Encyclopedia

Britannica, And you came away with all these ideas

that

[00:24:55] Georgia: And she came away with all these ideas that basically, …you know- Yeah … Led to the witch hunts And

[00:24:56] Bill: they’re all- And at that same time just one person’s ideas ………where

[00:24:59] Georgia: [00:25:00] anything that a woman, like, anything that a woman did would, it was, like, a mental illness. It was, Like hysteria. It was like, “Oh, no, she needs a lobotomy.”

I mean, you know what I mean? Lobotomy.

[00:25:11] Nick: Georgia, have you had your lobotomy yet? Like, I know that you’re due for one, but

[00:25:15] Georgia: me

[00:25:15] Bill: me to top you up? I’ve

got

[00:25:17] joe: it came … Yeah, right. He’s ready to

[00:25:18] Georgia: And that

that

[00:25:19] Nick: That’s really good. And that, that- Is this where we do the live lobotomy?

[00:25:20] Georgia: He’s growing another eyeball.

[00:25:20] joe: I know. We’d need video for that.

[00:25:22] Georgia: It

fits perfectly with that same time period.

[00:25:25] Bill: 100%.

[00:25:26] Georgia: Oh. 100%. The ’40s to the ’60s, you know. And I brought this up on a different episode, but

Oh, shoot. Megan Church, The Mad Wife. And that it’s basically about that, like, you know, just it was just so easy to throw- …a woman into a mental institution and say-

[00:25:46] joe: Oh,

yeah,

[00:25:47] Nick: Yeah, I mean-

[00:25:48] joe: Right. Didn’t do your housework.

[00:25:49] Bill: Know-

[00:25:49] joe: was all sorts of… Yeah, that was your grounds to be tossed away into a mental institution.

[00:25:54] Bill: Oh, man. So- I’d be in so much trouble.

[00:25:57] joe: Well, yeah.

[00:25:58] Georgia: so much trouble.

Well, yeah. No, you’re a man. I am. But [00:26:00]

[00:26:00] Nick: what,

I-

it,

there’s so many things that even we’ve learned from that we still do that are witch- considered witchcraft. Yeah.

[00:26:07] joe: Like- Mm-hmm …

[00:26:09] Nick: you ever spilled salt and threw it over your shoulder? That’s considered a witchcraft. I wanna say it was even blowing out candles on your birthday because you’re making a wish before blowing them out, and that is part of witchcraft. Talking to the trees or plants.

[00:26:24] joe: the candles, like, isn’t it you, if you blow out a candle then you kill a Oh. that

[00:26:28] Bill: Oh. Something like that, Oh, no.

[00:26:30] joe: in kind of, Wasn’t that’s, like, another one. I mean, it…

Those are s- Yeah …like, some of those are superstitions, right? Yeah. So you’re- All of them …you’re blending that. Yeah, right,

so. Is that why when

[00:26:35] Nick: I- the,

I mean, they all stem

from- You relate

[00:26:36] Georgia: Yeah, right. So. Is that like when you

hear a bell an angel gets its wings?

[00:26:41] Bill: a bell and you forget something?

[00:26:42] Nick: I

don’t even- know what you’re talking about

[00:26:43] Georgia: A witch. Witch. She knows too much.

[00:26:46] Bill: She knows too

much. the arcane arts flow through

her.

[00:26:49] joe: gonna say how to, how do you spot a witch, right? This was the toolkit to spot a witch. It came up. I was looking through my notes because I have it. There was, like, four things. One is the witch’s mark or the devil’s [00:27:00] mark. Mm-hmm. Any mole, birthmark, scar, extra nipple was

[00:27:04] Nick: I have three.

[00:27:06] joe: Three.

He says-

[00:27:06] Bill: It says- Wait, You have a third nipple or three extra

[00:27:08] Nick: Three

[00:27:08] joe: would,

[00:27:09] Bill: Oh,

[00:27:09] Nick: Wow. Yeah. You

[00:27:10] Bill: wanna

[00:27:10] joe: So they

would

[00:27:11] Bill: bring enough for The whole class. Yeah. What’s up?

[00:27:13] Nick: The,

[00:27:13] joe: Yeah, he’s got a bunch of nipples.

But the, the accusers would search the bodies for insensitive spots, pricking them with needles since a true witch’s mark supposedly didn’t bleed or hurt, and it was a rigged test since the needles could be retractable frauds.

So they would have it, like, “Oh, I got a needle. Look, I’m gonna do it.” And then it’s, like, you know, a trick needle where it didn’t

really.

Familiars, so this was

animal companions. Mm-hmm. We see that. Cats, toads, birds, they believed to be demons in disguise serving the witch. And this is almost certainly why black cats got their sinister reputation in the West.

And actually, there was… I got a follow-up on the black cat thing, so that was an interesting little rabbit hole.

The swimming test.

Accused were bound and thrown in water. Floating proved guilt ’cause water is a pure element and said to reject the guilty.

…Sinking proved [00:28:00] innocence,

But

[00:28:01] Georgia: But then you drown.

[00:28:02] joe: Yeah, so a, a horrifying rigged test either way. Like, like less,

[00:28:07] Nick: You’re screwed. Either you’re

gonna be thrown in the water.

Yeah.

And then hanged.

[00:28:11] joe: you float, and then you’re h- yeah, or you drown, and then you sink down, and then you float again, like, right? I mean, it’s kinda

like, “Yeah, “

look at that.”

[00:28:19] Georgia: at that.

[00:28:20] joe: then

the Sabbat it was an alleged nighttime gathering of the witches to feast, dance, and pay homage to the devil. largely, it was largely an, an invention of demonologists and c- and conquistadors, not a real practice, but it became the template for centuries of witches, covens, imagery, and fiction.

So that was

[00:28:38] Georgia: So

[00:28:38] joe: it.

[00:28:39] Georgia: So when you

are reading

[00:28:40] Nick: wanting to been involved, invited.

I’ve always wanted to be invited to one of those.

So

[00:28:44] Georgia: I

know, right?

[00:28:46] joe: wanted to

[00:28:47] Georgia: you read How to Spot a Witch. What year did that come out, or-

what- that was all part, what was

[00:28:52] joe: that was part of this that document, 1487. That was all kind of ways… It was embedded in there. “This is how you can tell.” That… It [00:29:00] was used, that was a true document. It was like, “Here’s a document.

This is how you tell

a witch-

This is how you dis- patch of them. You know, how you get, how you purge this from, , society.” And that was really interesting. And I w- I was gonna… The other thing we, we got, we touched a little bit on class and things like that, and to really nail that point during that Middle Ages period, right, you had wizards were really respected, and wizard just means wise.

Mm-hmm. You know, and so you had people actually practicing wizardry, and they were respected. They were, , included in royalty, all sorts of things there. And, , Merlin, I mean, you have, you’ve, it… You can just think about that, but you had people who were, … The women were poor, or they were being just classified as witches, like, because they knew too much,

or, “They’re too powerful.

We gotta

go get them,” like you said. They’re just chilling, like, just kinda living their life and, you know.

[00:29:52] Nick: Hey, guys, I do have something to add right now.

If you go to eBay, you can go ahead and order a spell. Oh. [00:30:00] Yeah.

[00:30:00] joe: know what that means. What are

[00:30:01] Nick: what that means.

[00:30:01] joe: now?

[00:30:01] Bill: The rack? What,

[00:30:02] Nick: or- yeah Intense biting, binding love spell

[00:30:05] joe: like, “Biting?”

[00:30:06] Nick: That’s only

$15, guys.

[00:30:08] Bill: That’s only $30, guys. 15 bucks. that’s a

steal.

[00:30:09] Nick: That’s-” steep. Athletic spell boosts physical s-

strength- Physical- …and …performance. …

[00:30:13] Georgia: a witch,

[00:30:15] Bill: that’s very

[00:30:15] Georgia: on? I

[00:30:16] Nick: I believe it is. Yeah. They they have pictures of all the stuff that they use, and I don’t know. Do I order one, guys?

Like, is this in our budget for, the … I don’t think-

[00:30:25] joe: I don’t know, man …

[00:30:26] Nick: can I order spells in our budget? I

[00:30:28] joe: think you should be ordering spells

[00:30:29] Bill: can Write it

[00:30:30] Nick: There’s a money spell though …

Money spell?

It’s only $9.99. That

reminds

[00:30:34] joe: me,

too. This is kind of,

[00:30:36] Nick: a- …

[00:30:36] Bill: That’s pretty

[00:30:37] joe: that touches into, like, urban fantasy, right?

‘Cause that’s the whole idea, that vampires- Yes … werewolves, witches, they all kind of exist, wizards, in contemporary times- Mm-hmm … and then they can do things. I’m just reading Jim Butcher, and the, the Dresden Harry Dre- he’s a PI. He’s a wizard PI, and you can go, and he… It’s, like, very noir.

It’s, like, [00:31:00] kind of a noir feeling. There’s things happening, and then he kinda goes. There’s a coven. There’s a, a, not a coven, a council of, the guardians of magic or whatever. You know, it’s like this whole thing. So yeah, it’s really kind

[00:31:11] Bill: great …

[00:31:12] joe: really cool.

I think it’s got like 17 books

or something like that, and so yeah, eBay that doesn’t surprise me that

[00:31:17] Nick: Yeah. Some witches

[00:31:18] joe: who thinks they’re a witch, or maybe they really are. I don’t wanna,

I don’t wanna- And

[00:31:22] Nick: you been on WitchTok? I have not

[00:31:24] joe: I have

[00:31:24] Nick: No? They have a whole subgenre. Is that

TikTok?

Yeah, on TikTok

you

can find a

[00:31:28] joe: Oh, I

thought it was like

a witch specific

thing.

[00:31:31] Nick: It’s just like once you go down that rabbit hole, you- get-

[00:31:34] Bill: Boy, you don’t come back.

[00:31:34] Nick: Oh.

I’ve

been down it quite a few times.

So,

[00:31:40] joe: So I was … So I talked about the black cats, and this one was really interesting because we get the y- it’s the black cats, Black Death.

So the idea was that Pope Gregory, the ninth? 1233 bill Vox in Rama declared cats, especially black cats, to be agents of Satan, triggering mass cat [00:32:00] killings across Christian

Europe.

With the cats gone, the rat population exploded, and then rats had the fleas, which carried Yersinia pestis, which is Black Death.

Black Death? Oh.

[00:32:09] Nick: plague? Oh.

[00:32:09] joe: And that result, that supercharge of Black Death, Okay … you know, plague, 1347 to 1351. Now that’s the-

[00:32:15] Nick: I love when that

[00:32:16] joe: the myth.

That’s

the claim. Okay.

But what the actual document says, this is a real document, it was really issued, but it was addressed to the King of Germany and a arch- archbishop of Mainz about a specific alleged h- sect the Luciferians near Schrodinger, Germany.

It describes a bizarre initiation ritual in which a black cat statue supposedly comes to life. It does not order the killing of cats, does not mention cats in general as evil, and was never a Europe-wide kind of directive. So there’s no credile- no credible evidence of any organized church-directed mass cat culling of

it.

Okay. And so the, the myth does persist because [00:33:00] cats, especially black ones, and especially those kept by older solitary women generally just … They’d pick up these supernatural sinister associations in later medieval and modern folklore linked to the familiar concept so that’s

kind of

like that cultural connection.

And then you had , this the conveniently packaged church superstition and a pandemic into kind of a morality tale about religious irrationality causing mass death. So weaponizing this to go after the church and what they’re doing. So, but there’s really… They haven’t…

They- they’ve traced the primary source and how it’s described. And the causes of Black Death severity there was multiple plague transmission routes you had poor sanitation, malnutrition, the trade route density, lack of any concept of germ theory but that’s all more boring

than

[00:33:48] Bill: all very- …the cats,

Very. complicated Yeah, right.

[00:33:51] joe: The Pope

killed The

[00:33:52] Bill: The Pope killed the cats the living statue

Yeah,

[00:33:54] joe: that’s right. Yeah. Yeah. It

w-

That was

the only thing they wanted, and

then

it was like, “

You know what? This kind of germ theory thing is kinda [00:34:00] boring. Why don’t we just say you know, the Pope killed all the cats?” And then

yeah.

So that’s a much more exciting

and lively story, but then that just persisted into kind of this idea that black cats have some weird, tether to the occult.

[00:34:12] Nick: And I do have to say that black cats are adopted or tried

to be adopted around this time of year. And as soon as the s- season’s over, they go to the animal shelters. and stuff.

[00:34:23] joe: Yeah,

[00:34:24] Nick: So please do not.

Yeah.

No.

Leave those cats alone.

[00:34:29] Bill: a

kitty. Yes. You know?

[00:34:30] joe: Yeah,

[00:34:31] Nick: yeah. It’s not just a thing to be like, “Oh, I got a black cat.” for Halloween.” It’s like-

[00:34:35] joe: your

[00:34:36] Bill: What, you don’t need a supernatural servitor. in like, December? A familiar? You know? of course you do. I want

a familiar like

that. January comes around, I still need it. You know? I

still need a demon to do my devilish bidding. I…

[00:34:48] Georgia: follow. Right, right.

[00:34:50] Bill: Right.

[00:34:52] Nick: Can’t do it all by myself.

[00:34:53] joe: are not-

[00:34:54] Bill: No

[00:34:55] Nick: is there any

[00:34:56] Georgia: damn. Black cats are not- So is there any science related to witchcraft?

[00:34:58] Bill: to witchcraft.

[00:34:59] Georgia: Science

[00:34:59] Nick: is [00:35:00] witchcraft. Yeah.

[00:35:00] Bill: That’s

[00:35:01] joe: Science is the witchcraft. Yeah. That’s true. There

[00:35:01] Bill: that

is the thing, Right?

[00:35:02] joe: Like- There

were some-

[00:35:03] Bill: were early scientist alchemists- and stuff-

Yeah … where they’re testing-

the natural world and Using

what they think

works. ……a

[00:35:09] joe: few interesting ones that I found. The flying ointment

[00:35:15] Bill: classic Gross. By

[00:35:16] joe: witches

And so I was gonna say also cunning folk was a term that was used for people before they were called witches.

They was called cunning folks. That would include men and women who were kinda herbalists. You go to them. You had folks too, there was kinda two classes: one who would do kinda medical things, you know, midwifery, kind of child birthing, you know, all this stuff here, healing. And then you had other, folk who would…

I’m like, “Folk,”

Who would,

You go to them and say, “Well, I lost my, my precious, necklace that was from my grandmother. Can you help me find it?” And then they would go out and help you find it. Or kinda like eBay here.

Like, …you know,

you can buy a potion or something

like that.

It was kind of…

That was this, this other class, [00:36:00]

[00:36:00] Nick: Joe. It’s- a

[00:36:00] joe: know what it is.

[00:36:01] Nick: So-

They do it and then send it to you.

[00:36:03] joe: So this kind of this this, this flying ointment, they made it from the nightshade family, so the deadly nightshade. If you eat it, you, you would die. It’s deadly.

But if you take it and you make a fatty salve with the kind of compounds that are in nightshade- Mm-hmm … and applied it to the skin, so a topical it was absorbed through the skin, and it would cause sensations of flight, falling, and vivid dissociative

hallucinations

and a distinct class of psychedelics.

Yeah. Wow. So it was a real thing, and you had it.

[00:36:38] Bill: Now, this is the thing they say you make this with a baby

right?

[00:36:41] joe: That, that was the… Right. So that, that’s, I know what you’re talking about. At death or at birth, you get a burst of DMT, which is the a, the hallucinogenic at birth and at death.

But there’s really no

[00:36:53] Bill: no scientific,

Right. you could also use, like, a hanged man. Yeah. This, The

Hands of a hanged man or something like

[00:36:57] joe: of a hangman or something like that. There’s

No scientific proof that happens, [00:37:00] so.

[00:37:00] Bill: Oh, well then I’ve got a lot of cleaning up, to

do when

[00:37:02] joe: we

were done. Now

let’s say there was,

[00:37:03] Bill: disappointing.

[00:37:04] joe: There was a

claim,

and this gets to the broomstick, is that the broomstick was coated with this ointment and then inserted vaginally.

It was like a popular, it was a popular kind of online- Guys, that’s

[00:37:18] Nick: that’s not what they were doing … They were trying to do something that the men

of their time could not.

[00:37:23] joe: was not … and that was

a…

[00:37:24] Nick: But the, And if they had ’em, It was- considered Witchcraft … But

[00:37:27] joe: that was done. Like, that’s just a, that’s kind of just internet rumors going out.

But yeah, you get… Yeah. So

[00:37:35] Nick: that

[00:37:35] joe: one- was,

[00:37:35] Georgia: me how this relates to science.

[00:37:38] joe: Well,

the- The actual flying ointment

is true, that you

could-

[00:37:42] Georgia: that it was- … hallucinogenic and- ……give

you a hallucinogenic and

[00:37:44] joe: like you’re flying or

whatever. Yeah. So, right. So

[00:37:46] Georgia: that

was one theory about it. Well, Yeah. I would see there’s a lot of natural- But I think it’s more- … medicines … the

[00:37:50] joe: in this broomstick thing. That’s, you know,

[00:37:52] Nick: Is that not just ecstasy or-

[00:37:53] Bill: So…

[00:37:54] Georgia: There’s a lot of, like, natural medicines and ways

to use,

[00:37:58] joe: Yeah, but this one,

it gave you the [00:38:00] sensation of flight and falling, so that’s why, because we think of witches flying or doing something.

Right. so.

[00:38:06] Bill: They’re all just tripping out

In the living room.

[00:38:08] Georgia: Yeah.

[00:38:09] joe: do

[00:38:09] Nick: Yeah. I do

that on

a nightly.

[00:38:10] joe: There was another idea for d- for Salem. It’s ergotism. And so the ergot fungus grows on damp rye, and it produces a type of alkaloid, so it’s a kind of a chemical cousin of LSD.

And so the idea is that it was proposed by a researcher in 1976 Linda Caporael,

Caporael

that it was rye, just a bad batch of rye bread that was tainted with this,

[00:38:38] Nick: Wait, so that

wasn’t witches?

[00:38:39] Georgia: It’s like a fungus

or? It’s a fungus.

[00:38:41] joe: right. Okay. And

it produces a type of alkaloid that’s similar to LSD,

and it was like

You know, it’s an interesting, fantastic science hook.

[00:38:51] Nick: I love

that idea. But most

[00:38:52] joe: now consider it largely discredited since it doesn’t match the specific symptom patterns and timing or the social pattern of the ac- [00:39:00] the accusations. So, and like you guys are saying, a lot of the, the accusations tracked social political rivalries than any other- Right … Kind of- Plausible kind of contamination map.

So that’s why that… But the rye bread thing was an interesting idea. Mm-hmm. That you do have these. So that was one. So we talked about the flying ointment. That was actually a real thing. And then this one,

[00:39:19] Georgia: Eating bad rye bread … yeah, tripping

off

[00:39:22] joe: bad bread …

Yeah.

They’ve been tripping off

[00:39:23] Nick: But it

was witches who did

[00:39:24] joe: But it

was really- Yeah …witches, that’s right. Yeah. And then I- you got the psychology aspect of it, right? You got the moral panic, scapegoating coerced confessions, all that kind of ropes into-

[00:39:35] Nick: Well, yeah. Then

they force them to confess that they were witches- and- that’s the only way that they would be saved.

[00:39:42] Bill: saved.

Yeah.

[00:39:43] Nick: And it would o- They would say, “Oh, it would… It will save your soul.”

[00:39:48] Bill: This,

This I ke-

[00:39:49] Georgia: c-

[00:39:49] Bill: The stuff in this Moore-Waite book really- … laid some of the stuff.

[00:39:53] Nick: out.

[00:39:53] joe: it’s

[00:39:53] Bill: It’s truly bonkers.

[00:39:55] joe: Like- Mm-hmm …

[00:39:56] Bill: the people who were accusing the witches were [00:40:00] in the room with the witches, in the court, right? And they’re mostly young little girls, and They’re being like, you’re like, “Yes, go ahead, tell them what’s happening.” They’re freaking out in front

of everyone. ……And

They’re even saying things like, “

You’re here, you know? You’re… I’ve accused you, Georgia.”

And I’m sitting there saying, “Georgia’s coming to me now. She’s here, she’s standing next to me. She’s poking me, she’s pinching me. It’s- I’m tormented by her.” And you’re sitting there, everyone can see you, but this little girl is saying that you’re also standing next to her and tormenting her,

and they’re like flopping around and screaming. And going crazy. And- And-

[00:40:38] Georgia: And then,

[00:40:38] Bill: went for

[00:40:39] Georgia: and they should- … be the ones- locked

[00:40:40] Bill: Yeah. Why

[00:40:41] joe: yeah. It’s

[00:40:42] Bill: they, why aren’t you… You’re Obviously something’s wrong with you.

Not

anybody else. It was- really-

Where- …

[00:40:48] Georgia: Yeah. Wow

[00:40:49] Nick: bonkers.

[00:40:50] Bill: would you look at that and be like, “Oh, that’s obviously this person who’s sitting here normally, who has no power, who’s-” not doing anything, [00:41:00] …and this other person who’s freaking out is, must be telling the truth, you know?

[00:41:03] Georgia: Wow.

[00:41:03] Nick: Wow.

I wonder how many people actually were like, “

Yeah, it’s me” and like- … just to see if they would back off, like…

[00:41:11] Bill: That’s a good question. ‘

[00:41:12] Nick: I mean-

[00:41:13] Bill: like to scare them. Yeah. You know? I will use my powers on you if you- Yeah …get out of

here.” I

[00:41:17] Georgia: think

[00:41:17] joe: you’d just get hung

[00:41:17] Bill: down. Yeah.

[00:41:18] joe: Yeah. Yeah. I think you would just go

[00:41:19] Nick: Not unless you curse … them …It was,

[00:41:21] joe: Agatha All Along, right?

[00:41:22] Nick: mind. I

love that. Well, that

[00:41:23] Bill: Corey

got pretty close, that dude who

got

pressed.

[00:41:26] joe: dude who got pressed. Oh,

[00:41:26] Georgia: He-

[00:41:28] Nick: He

[00:41:28] Bill: started off, he actually a- accused his wife

at the beginning and was like, “I think she bewitched me.”

And they arrest her, and then after a while things start getting going and he’s like, “Wait a minute, none of this makes any sense.”

And he tries to take it back, and it doesn’t work, and then… Well, they tried, he tries to take it back because they accuse him. If your wife is a witch- And

you know what she’s doing …you know what she’s doing- you must also be a witch. He gets accused, he gets arrested, and then basically they accused him of being a witch, they put him on trial, and apparently,

I’m not [00:42:00] 100% how this works. I’m not a 17th century lawyer

[00:42:03] Nick: Are you

sure? Yeah,

[00:42:04] Bill: But if he pled guilty or not guilty,

he would be entering the legal bonds of, you know…

And then after he was, after he dies, the court would get his land. Mm-hmm.

[00:42:18] joe: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:19] Bill: So he decided not to say anything at all.

[00:42:22] Nick: And

it

[00:42:23] Bill: was part of the law that if you didn’t,

[00:42:26] Nick: you didn’t

[00:42:26] Bill: say anything, you weren’t part of it yet. So that’s, they’re like, “Well, s- you know, d- are you guilty or not?” And he didn’t say anything.

And eventually they’re like, “Well, you gotta You press him. So they put him under some some wood, and then they started putting rocks on top

of him. And they kept asking him, “Are you ” guilty? Are you guilty or not? Are you guilty or not?” And all he said was- “More weight. More weight.” And eventually

[00:42:51] Nick: That is …so cool …after

[00:42:53] Bill: three days-

[00:42:54] joe: I wouldn’t go as far as cool, but

[00:42:56] Bill: from being crushed by the rocks. But because he never-

[00:42:59] Georgia: Then they weren’t [00:43:00] able to take

[00:43:00] Bill: said he was guilty or not guilty, he was never actually part of the legal proceedings- and his son-in-laws retained the rights to his

[00:43:10] joe: Wow.

[00:43:10] Nick: Wow. So, so he- r- figured out what was going on.

[00:43:14] Bill: It seems that way, you know- But- From what-

Granted,

[00:43:16] Nick: he’s probably not the first- to have figured that out. Yeah. But he was the first to-

[00:43:22] Bill: was

[00:43:22] Georgia: of- the- Wow.

And just the

[00:43:23] Bill: maybe one of the only- Yeah … is …to

like,

stick it out.

Most

people,

after a while of- being

crushed- Yeah …

would just say, “Screw it. Yeah.

[00:43:29] Georgia: kind of torture. “

[00:43:30] Nick: I’m not guilty.”

[00:43:31] Georgia: Yeah. Wow.

[00:43:32] Bill: It’s wild. Wild stuff.

[00:43:34] joe: But that, that idea too about the kind of land and politics, you had that a lot of the trials correlated with cold periods, crop failure, economic competition among women.

You were asking about the older women. Mm-hmm. And if you’re in trades like midwifery, brewing, healing,

the accused were disproportionately older, poor, unmarried, or widowed women who threatened or burdened the social order. So you had this kind of [00:44:00] competition, jobs. It’s like, jobs are scarce. Right. I need to get in.

Then let’s take that person out and move forward. So yeah, you had a lot of that, It was all just a big, , cover to eliminate and take out people- Mm-hmm … who you didn’t… You wanted their land, so you go after them. Or once something happened like that, the wife got accused did the opportunity come up,

“What- yeah we could do is we can actually, we can use this to our advantage and get, get the land,” right? So I think you had this,

[00:44:26] Georgia: And

I’m sure

There were people that believed it. I mean, you know what I mean, And I’m sure

[00:44:32] Nick: sure See, look at the things people believe nowadays.

And right.

[00:44:35] Georgia: I’m

sure there are people, like, were very scared.

like

[00:44:38] joe: moral panic. Yeah.

[00:44:39] Georgia: Yeah. they saw these

people freaking out. and They really thought it was. Yeah. You know, witches

And,

[00:44:44] Bill: What a terrifying

[00:44:45] Georgia: So to really Play on people’s fear- and panic, paranoia.

[00:44:50] Bill: like,

[00:44:50] Nick: think about it. How much fun would it be to play on people’s fear like that?

[00:44:55] Georgia: like that?

Just

[00:44:56] Bill: be to play on people’s fears like

that?

[00:44:57] Nick: Yeah. they’re terrified of this. How stupid [00:45:00] are they? And like just rolling with it, I… The joy I’d get.

[00:45:06] joe: I don’t know. I

[00:45:07] Georgia: I don’t know. “Oh, I think You’re a

[00:45:10] joe: You’re gonna be…

[00:45:12] Bill: I always, it it always brings me back back to

the… I lived through the Satanic panic. I vividly remember that. growing up.

remember hiding my Dungeons & Dragons-

[00:45:23] Nick: I

was gonna

[00:45:23] Georgia: you play D&D,

did

[00:45:25] Bill: to hide them

under the bed- … you know? I, because they were evil, and devilish. And I was l-

, com- communing with, the the great Satan or whatever. And you hear some of those, you know, some of those early interviews where the cops have a kid, and they just…

They’re… First off, they’re terrible at interviewing to get the truth.

They are great at interviewing to convince the kid that something happened.

Yep. And that’s exactly what happens every time,

Listening to

[00:45:55] Nick: to all of that just- It’s- … was a modern-day- … it’s it- … Salem

witch trial. yeah.

[00:45:59] Bill: And it’s, v- …I’m [00:46:00] sure very similar things happened during the witch trials,

Oh. yeah. Where the people in charge

just convinced people-

Right, you know, to say the things that they needed to say. And then after a while, , if it’s been days and people have been telling you, “No, this is… well, Tell us what really happened.” you start to think it did, you know? Maybe you start to- Well, yeah.

[00:46:21] Nick: You, get into your

head … to think it yourself.

[00:46:23] Bill: Yeah, exactly. ‘Cause they’re-

Maybe I am in league with Satan

[00:46:26] Nick: It’s leading the questions and then having the answer that you want. You’re not getting any sleep. You’re not getting- Right … what you need. You’re locked in a room answering these questions for what?

24 hours? If that. And then you, ju- you just kinda give in. Yeah. You’ll say anything you can to get out of that room.

[00:46:46] joe: No, I was gonna say that mass mass psychogenic illness is there. It’s this,

[00:46:50] Nick: some,

[00:46:52] joe: accusers

The convulsions and fits of the com- the accusers resemble documented cases kind of mass, this mass psychogenic [00:47:00] illness.

It’s a conversion disorder spreading through a socially bonded group under stress. And so you see it in modern outbreaks too, kind of unexplained feigning or tics in schools. So you have these kind of outbursts that no one knows, and it’s just this- We talked

about that …

we talked, yep,

[00:47:14] Georgia: very recently.

Yeah.

[00:47:16] joe: an

[00:47:16] Bill: is really interesting. so it’s like a meme this i- ideas are transferred. And you catch it. That’s right. People start catching it.

[00:47:23] joe: you start doing it, then it just builds up. Yeah. So you can imagine at this time- Yeah … you start having that. Not only do you get them in and try to coerce this this thing out of them, but you also then you start

behaving in some way because it’s, you know, it’s

[00:47:37] Bill: Yeah

[00:47:38] Georgia: Yeah

everyone

else

[00:47:39] Bill: it. Everyone’s doing it. yeah.

[00:47:40] Georgia: of- Everyone’s doing it. Yeah

[00:47:40] joe: you know,

[00:47:41] Bill: That is w- that is

[00:47:43] joe: Yeah.

So that one is really kind of, crazy there, so.

[00:47:46] Nick: What’s the term when you’re kidnapped and they convince you that you’re one of them?

[00:47:53] joe: The Stockholm

[00:47:53] Nick: Stockholm

syndrome. Would that be considered what they did to these kids too, the [00:48:00] police?

[00:48:00] Bill: Oh, you mean, like it, in the

[00:48:01] Nick: in the Satanic panic.

Like because-

[00:48:05] joe: Because- Mm-hmm …

[00:48:06] Nick: they’re young

[00:48:07] Georgia: It is

[00:48:07] Nick: They don’t know what they’re doing …kinda

[00:48:09] Bill: that, but it’s different because-

[00:48:12] Nick: They’re cops?

[00:48:13] Bill: Well, yeah. a- actually, yeah. It’s d- Which I see the difference

[00:48:15] Nick: I don’t see the difference then …because they’re

still being-

[00:48:18] Bill: putting

the same pressures, the same exact kind of pressures on those kids. But there is

[00:48:25] Nick: the

[00:48:26] Bill: s- you know, when you’re being, when you’re kidnapped by somebody-

Yeah … there is no, you know, you don’t know you’re getting out of that or

what’s gonna happen. At least the cops ostensibly have to book me tonight, young tonight …let

[00:48:36] Nick: that young and naive- Or whatever … you don’t know

[00:48:38] Bill: you’re a kid,

[00:48:39] Nick: you don’t have any of this information yeah,

it’s like, well, same kind of things, yeah. But

I think- You’re in fear. You’re in- you,

[00:48:44] joe: empathize with your kidnapper.

Like you, you begin to agree with them, so you don’t,

[00:48:50] Nick: you

Which they

are- …

end up agreeing that-

[00:48:53] joe: But I think a

[00:48:54] Nick: these things happened to me. I’m- In- ……Under

this satanic spell …

[00:48:57] joe: Yeah.

Yeah.

[00:48:59] Nick: season I think we’re gonna have [00:49:00] to cover

the Satanic Panic.

[00:49:01] joe: have to cover the Satanic panic. We’ll have to do it.

[00:49:02] Nick: ‘

‘Cause I

totally feel like I’m going into that rant. It’s

[00:49:05] joe: I was gonna kind of, you know, somewhat in, in our fictional world,

[00:49:10] Nick: let’s

[00:49:11] joe: there, is that in horror you always see, , witchcraft presented as negative forces, right? So

in,

[00:49:20] Nick: like it’s been

[00:49:21] Georgia: changing … not always.

[00:49:22] Nick: Been changing more in recent

years sure, yeah. I think Look at Practical Magic?

[00:49:26] joe: Pop cul- I was gonna say, but that’s not… I mean, is that a horror movie? I said horror. I said in

[00:49:31] Bill: when it’s horror.

[00:49:31] Nick: it’s horror,

it’s- I mean-

[00:49:32] joe: witches, witchcraft is always portrayed negatively. In pop culture I think there’s many examples that we can find that would be more positive and you would have that.

So that’s an example there. But I’m, I was saying that- Halloween Town …horror is one of those that you get…

[00:49:47] Nick: I’ll start naming off some stuff. I’ll rattle

[00:49:50] joe: them. I’m just saying it’s one it’s interesting that in horror you have

[00:49:52] Georgia: say, what, you know, I would say the majority.

[00:49:56] Bill: Yeah.

[00:49:58] joe: you know? ‘

[00:49:58] Nick: cause I mean, you end up [00:50:00] going from a supernatural to a human. That whole jump, anything above human is terrifying because you

[00:50:10] joe: don’t- Not necessarily witchcraft though. That could be many other things. You know- I’m thinking like you got The Witch, you got Hereditary

Rosemary rosemary’s Baby. Good … The Conjuring.

[00:50:18] Bill: Conjuring.

[00:50:18] Nick: Baby was-

not- Horror. I’m

[00:50:21] Bill: big fan of

[00:50:22] Nick: that. That wasn’t witchcraft. Yeah.

[00:50:24] joe: it

was.

[00:50:24] Georgia: was.

They were witches. that

[00:50:25] Nick: was- yeah, Satanic.

[00:50:27] Bill: it’s like combined.

[00:50:28] joe: I think that was- Well- Yeah …

[00:50:30] Georgia: I think that is a good point. You can have witches that

are- like this

satanic-

Mm-hmm coven and you’re summoning demons- and you’re worshiping Satan or whatever. That isn’t always the case, but that was in

Rosemary’s Baby.

[00:50:47] Bill: you had, like, those original things, like the, the Malleus Maleficarum- and all that stuff- and Salem stuff those, they were communing with the devil.

And then in- Murray’s book, she’s saying that, [00:51:00] “Oh, they communed with something older than the devil that the Christians looked at and in- interpreted as the

[00:51:07] Georgia: the devil.” Mm-hmm.

[00:51:08] Bill: then those two things kinda get watered down and mingled together, so sometimes in some stories, the witches are communing with the devil, and sometimes they’re

communing with anc- more, ancient- earth species or something.

[00:51:21] Georgia: then you can talk about, like, pagan relig- Right, Like a pagan- which is, it’s like, can be very positive. Yeah. You know? right. So- but, I, but-

[00:51:31] Nick: But I feel like a lot of our fear comes from the Catholic religion- Mm-hmm … when it comes- to witches and stuff.

[00:51:36] Georgia: and stuff- Mm-hmm

[00:51:37] Nick: because it’s something that they never truly understand, but they ended up taking some stuff from paganism, what’s- what’s the witch, Which witch is which?

But, like, a lot of the stuff ended up being influenced by it even though they said it was bad. Yeah.

[00:51:54] Bill: Yeah, that all the, yeah, it all- there’s a lot of

stuff they picked up and-

Yeah-

[00:51:58] Nick: I mean, ’cause-

[00:51:58] Bill: Became, you know-

[00:51:59] Nick: I [00:52:00] grew up Catholic, right?

from all different places. It’s something

that y- you, you do, and then just going through the rituals- Mm-hmm … you notice that, like, it’s- some stuff of it is, like, what they have that incense burning- … and it’s like, that’s a paganist- thing Yeah …that they stole, and they were like, “Oh, yeah, this is the way we do it.”

[00:52:22] Bill: Ritual, yeah. It’s very important.

[00:52:24] Georgia: Yeah. So Wiccan- It’s powerful …like-

[00:52:27] Nick: that’s what it is. Wiccan,

[00:52:29] Georgia: and

As a

[00:52:30] Nick: religion …

[00:52:31] Georgia: is-

right. it’s based on pagan, or

it’s different?

[00:52:36] Nick: I thought it was, like, an offshoot.

[00:52:37] Bill: Yeah, I think it is.

Which, you know, which brings in… You can sort of make something like The Wicker Man, one of my favorites- …I could bring that maybe under the witch-

[00:52:47] Nick: bees! Getting that- Not the bees!

[00:52:48] Bill: The bees! Get it, Not that- Not the

[00:52:49] Nick: Not the bees! that’s Not the Wicker

Man.

[00:52:50] Bill: not that Wicker Man.

Oh, God.

[00:52:52] Nick: No, that’s The best one.

[00:52:53] Georgia: Not the bees … not that bad Wicker Man. Oh,

[00:52:54] Nick: that’s the

only one there

is.

[00:52:55] Bill: is.

[00:52:56] Nick: the

bees!

[00:52:57] Georgia: you talking about 1974? The [00:53:00]

[00:53:00] Bill: bees!

[00:53:00] Georgia: one.

Or,

’70… Yeah. Yeah, that’s my Wicker Man.

Yeah.

[00:53:02] Bill: Wicker Man.

[00:53:02] joe: Yes. Yeah.

[00:53:03] Nick: yes. Okay. Nick Cage

is my Wicker Man.

[00:53:05] Georgia: know who you’re talking about.

No.

[00:53:08] Nick: the Nick Cage one. The one-

[00:53:11] joe: We love

Nick Cage, but,

[00:53:12] Nick: that was fantastic. …I consider, you know,

[00:53:14] Bill: certainly, How many- …Rosemary’s Baby gets brought- Oh,

into the witches. The, …

[00:53:18] Nick: Rosemary’s

Baby

[00:53:19] Georgia: is,

[00:53:19] Nick: like-

[00:53:19] Bill: like-

[00:53:20] Georgia: one … of my top top favorite movies.

Yes. The Witch.

[00:53:25] Bill: Yeah, that

Robert Eggers’

Witch, that’s a really

[00:53:27] Georgia: my gosh.

[00:53:29] Nick: God, So

[00:53:30] Georgia: incredible

[00:53:32] Bill: your viciously.”

[00:53:33] joe: Yes.

[00:53:34] Bill: please.

[00:53:35] Nick: Yes,

[00:53:37] Georgia: That one is- Oh, my gosh … that is a crushing one. And that is just such genius in

[00:53:38] Bill: That one

[00:53:38] Georgia: to just the smallest details, you know? It just, yeah. There’s so much in

[00:53:40] Nick: gosh …

[00:53:40] Bill: That

is,

a crushing one.

to

[00:53:41] Nick: that is

[00:53:42] Bill: And that is

[00:53:43] Georgia: such

genius

in filmmaking, like,

there that’s related to the Satanic structures.

Mm-hmm

You know, with

[00:53:50] Nick: just…

Yeah.

[00:53:52] Bill: There’s so much in that’s related to the Salem witch trials- you know, with

the children, the younger children being the sort of, like, [00:54:00] accusers, you know? And,

[00:54:01] Nick: Black Phillip.

[00:54:02] Bill: you know, Black Philip. But then the question is, like, well, what is this movie saying?

Well, they turned out, it seems that, you know, that there is a devil and there are witches and they are

[00:54:14] Georgia: It works good for a horror

[00:54:15] Nick: movie.

[00:54:15] joe: Which is,

[00:54:16] Bill: Witches, exactly, yeah.

[00:54:19] Georgia: Exactly,

yeah.

[00:54:20] Bill: even though everyone turn… Everyone dies because they turned on each other,

they turned on themselves.

It was just that small tipping point at the beginning that set everything off, when the baby gets taken, you know? And then at the end when our final girl- gets,

[00:54:38] Georgia: how old is this movie? Are we

[00:54:40] Nick: We’re fine.

[00:54:42] Bill: But, then like, you know, it’s like,

well, what is- are you saying that

women are evil? Is that what this thing was?

Is that what

this, I don’t know,

it, I

I don’t know.

what’s great about it is that it is, there is a lot,

There’s a lot of space, a lot of unanswered questions- around it. you know? it’s-

[00:54:58] Georgia: It’s really just

an

[00:54:59] Nick: [00:55:00] in the emptiness. Like-

It’s really

[00:55:01] Georgia: just an evil goat.

Yeah. You know?

[00:55:05] Bill: Black goats.

Black cats.

[00:55:07] Nick: thought they were all just tripping, like- Someone

got drugs by accident and, you know.

[00:55:13] Georgia: There was a book I read, and it was a couple years ago and I can’t think of the title, but-

[00:55:18] Nick: of the title, but

[00:55:19] Georgia: it was a book about this woman who had been in, like, a corporate world, and her husband was horrible and, like, she, so she was divorced from her husband and she ended up just going back to nature and she let her house kinda go back to nature and and then she became really wise in,

like- in using herbs and …using, and she actually could do

spells.

[00:55:44] joe: of the house are, the bone’s buried?

[00:55:46] Georgia: But it was so cool because it was like this empowerment. Mm-hmm. It was like taking the witch’s story, but making it like this woman was empowered, and then she helped these other women and these kind of horrible m- mainly men.[00:56:00]

[00:56:00] Nick: they were-

able- What? Are men being horrible? Never heard of that. And

[00:56:04] Georgia: able to

[00:56:04] Nick: know-

[00:56:05] Georgia: kinda get their revenge in a good way. You know what I mean? So. So Georgia- But I’m sorry I can’t think of the name of it. I will think of it.

[00:56:13] Nick: I have a question for you.

[00:56:15] Bill: I can…

[00:56:16] Nick: Do you ever recall as a little girl if you were mixing, like, leaves and stuff with twigs and,

like, rocks? Like, is that something you ever did?

[00:56:29] Bill: Did you make potions?

[00:56:30] Nick: Like, yeah, no,

like-

[00:56:31] Georgia: I’m trying to remember. I mean, I remember playing outside and, you know, playing in nature- and stuff. But to be honest, I, my favorite thing to play was that I was a Charlie’s Angel.

[00:56:46] Bill: Nice.

[00:56:48] Nick: Cause I, like, I, I know people, I know Michelle ended up doing this as well, where they would end up putting stuff together and mixing them up, and not understanding what they’re [00:57:00] doing, or, like, knowing about witches, but they would be like, “Oh, I’m gonna mix all this stuff together, and mix it around, and throw it everywhere.”

And, you know, later in life you were like, “Oh, wow, that was, like, an early form of what you would f- see a

[00:57:16] Georgia: w- almost just seemed like a natural thing to do. Exactly. Mm-hmm.

[00:57:20] Bill: Oh, there is- there is some great-

There’s like

[00:57:22] joe: is that, that… Is that tethered to, like, cooking and- Exactly … mixing things?

‘Cause

[00:57:27] Nick: have a cauldron now at my

[00:57:29] joe: a caul- Yeah,

right.

[00:57:30] Nick: No, like a legit- cast iron- cauldron? And I love using it- … Because I’m like, “I’m creating stuff that is good for you.” Mm-hmm. Like- Yeah …it is my version of a potion.

[00:57:42] joe: But that’s a positive… I mean, that’s kind of the witchcraft in its true…

And we started there. In its truest form, it was about being a, a herbalist, making potions, healing trying to do these, these types of things i- for your [00:58:00] community. So if you go back to that root before it was politicized, I guess- … in some ways, and demonized, you would have this…

No pun intended there. …

[00:58:08] Georgia: you

[00:58:08] joe: would have

this… I mean, I guess it was, but you would have that kind of thing, where it was

[00:58:13] Georgia: And there’s a lot …of

[00:58:13] joe: some knowledge and some-

And also- … ability, so-

[00:58:17] Georgia: ability, so- The, also, I

think a really positive thing was women coming together and understanding those friendships.

Mm-hmm. right. and

having

[00:58:25] Bill: knowledge down …

[00:58:25] Georgia: understanding that community, and I think that’s something also, because I think if anything- People wanna divide everybody.

[00:58:34] Nick: the moral of

the story is- groups of women are dangerous?

[00:58:38] Georgia: They

[00:58:39] Nick: They should be feared?

[00:58:41] Georgia: Yes.

[00:58:41] joe: that was the idea, yeah. That was it.

[00:58:44] Nick: Yeah,

[00:58:44] Georgia: they have a

[00:58:44] Nick: Charlie’s Angels.

[00:58:46] Georgia: have

[00:58:46] joe: have

Yeah, that’s right. They have a lot more power than people give ’em credit for. Yeah,

And so

[00:58:47] Georgia: a lot, they have a lot more power

than people give ’em credit for. And so look out.

[00:58:51] Nick: I am

all down for groups of women who want to cast spells. Yeah. Please do it more often.[00:59:00]

[00:59:02] Georgia: Right.

[00:59:03] joe: So, and then just touch that Wicca is an actual religion.

[00:59:08] Georgia: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:08] joe: that just don’t wanna have that lost in, I think it was Gerald Gardner, I have, in 1954,

[00:59:14] Bill: 1954

[00:59:16] joe: was a retired British civil servant who did Witchcraft Today.

[00:59:20] Georgia: And

I know at least one person that practices Wicca, and…

Not practices. Do You say practices Catholicism. I don’t know, that’s a weird way to

[00:59:30] Nick: would think that

[00:59:31] Georgia: Okay. But and I feel like it’s a very positive-

[00:59:35] Nick: Right

[00:59:35] Georgia: it’s a very positive thing Yeah,

[00:59:37] joe: Yeah, there’s a lot of- yep. I mean, that’s kinda going

[00:59:39] Nick: No religion anyone’s like, this is a evil religion that I’m practicing. It’s

[00:59:44] Bill: like-

[00:59:45] joe: Yeah

[00:59:46] Nick: It’s just

not a

thing for

[00:59:48] Georgia: those,

you know, teenagers back in

[00:59:50] Nick: in the

Right.

[00:59:52] Bill: Oh, we were into the

evil. Yeah. We were doing it ’cause it was scary.

[00:59:54] Georgia: the-

[00:59:54] joe: wanna make that it’s, it is a real practiced modern religion, and it’s [01:00:00] meaningfully distinct from the historical trial here.

Witch which was more an accusation, And in the fictional pop culture kind of witch, which are usually story devices, as we were talking about. So I just wanna-

And that- I wanna make it clear that is a

real thing

[01:00:12] Georgia: more of a supernatural.

[01:00:15] joe: In fiction, right, yes.

[01:00:17] Nick: I would like to add on that if there’s any Wiccans out there

that would like to contact us to talk more about it- we’re totally down. Yeah. I want to know more.

Please.

[01:00:27] Bill: Love spells, money spells

[01:00:29] Nick: I’m going to

[01:00:30] joe: I- Love spells, money spells.

That’s right. Yeah, no. That’s-

[01:00:31] Georgia: ac- Money spells. I’m going

[01:00:32] joe: don’t

[01:00:32] Georgia: I’m not sure about that.

But

[01:00:34] joe: but yeah. I will open a radical research college. I actually- I actually think

[01:00:35] Nick: the Rabbit Hole of Research wallet for this. I

[01:00:37] Georgia: I actually think

I h- might have a connection.

so.

[01:00:40] Bill: Oh,

[01:00:41] Nick: Cool.

[01:00:41] joe: not

[01:00:41] Nick: Connection.

Where were they for the today, Georgia?

[01:00:44] Georgia: I know.

That’s because,

[01:00:46] Bill: This is how all the horror movies start.

[01:00:49] Georgia: I’m

really

not good

about-

[01:00:51] Nick: Talking

to people?

Yeah, and scheduling stuff,

[01:00:54] Georgia: so.

Actually, this podcast would’ve been dead in the water a long time ago [01:01:00]

if it was based on my ability

to

[01:01:02] Nick: it wasn’t for Joe.

[01:01:03] joe: Iceland, georgia. Maybe you’re thinking of Iceland also. They had witch trials. Oh. But they mostly executed men. About 90% of its 120 accused.

Good. So that was a, that was an exception, and it all tethers to, like, old Norse- Mm-hmm … Kind of,

[01:01:19] Bill: Iceland is really cool They still have,

like- like, just across the board, like supernatural beliefs, they are much more open to things, just in general. Like, this stone is where the fairies dance.”

[01:01:36] joe: Mm-hmm. Oh,

[01:01:37] Georgia: yeah.

[01:01:38] Bill: let’s just go around the s- let’s build our road around the

stone.”

Well,

[01:01:41] Nick: yeah, you don’t wanna

mess with the fairies.

[01:01:43] Bill: Like, the, they will do that, you know? Well, they believe in chances.” They have a very rich very

[01:01:47] Georgia: be real.”

[01:01:48] Nick: “This could be real”

like

[01:01:50] Georgia: history.

and- It’s

[01:01:51] Nick: Whimsy- whimsical.

…It is.

And I love that.

[01:01:53] Bill: You know? And I talked to a whole bunch of people when I was over there, and they’re like, “Yeah, well, maybe there is.” Yeah. I know. Who’s to say that it’s [01:02:00] not, that’s not a fairy rock? Let’s just go around it just in case.

Well, yeah. You know what I mean?

[01:02:04] Nick: we-

[01:02:04] Georgia: much

[01:02:04] Nick: People believe in a

[01:02:05] Georgia: world would be if we had that kind of attitude. They

[01:02:08] Bill: rolled with it, like, “All

[01:02:10] Nick: let them be.

[01:02:10] Georgia: Yeah.

[01:02:11] Bill: Yeah.

Like,

[01:02:11] Nick: I,

y- you don’t stop anyone from believing in things. You just let them be.

[01:02:15] Bill: Well,

you know- I don’t, again, I don’t wanna get political, but unless you’re hurting people.

But

[01:02:20] Nick: Unless you’re hurting people-

Consumerism,

[01:02:22] Bill: you know, like,

You know, you can’t run a company really well if you’re spending extra money to go around rocks. You know what I mean?

Got it. You

[01:02:31] Nick: I mean-

[01:02:31] Bill: bu- bulldoze through it,

you know? If you don’t care about

people- Papa, I’m home …you also don’t care about- you don’t care about what they believe

or

what they don’t believe or anything, so

[01:02:40] Georgia: If you

[01:02:41] Bill: it’s

easier to just,

eh.

[01:02:42] Nick: Just smudge it up.

[01:02:44] Georgia: just bulldoze it up”

[01:02:46] Bill: But then I’ll make some little stuffies based on

the fairies that used to live in that rock, and I’ll, we’ll sell those online.

[01:02:52] joe: Yeah.

There you go. On eBay. Seems

like there’s a market maybe. Yeah.

[01:02:56] Georgia: So I, and just some other, I mean, there’s so [01:03:00] many pop, pop culture-

References. But the American Horror Story- one of my favorite …seasons was- it called The Coven.

it

was called The Coven, Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And, but I think they’re bringing The

Coven back.

Yeah. I think

that’s gonna be a,

a, like a, another s-

[01:03:16] joe: s-

[01:03:16] Bill: got the impression this

new season- is gonna have a whole bunch of

[01:03:20] Georgia: bunch of

[01:03:20] Bill: it’s gon- it’s bringing all sorts

[01:03:22] Georgia: sorts of Coven together, okay … Oh, so maybe

[01:03:24] Nick: I didn’t know the show was.

still going.

[01:03:26] Bill: show was still going.

I didn’t either. Yeah.

Yeah.

It

[01:03:27] Nick: I thought they ended that years ago.

I

think

[01:03:29] Bill: it’s on the 13th season …

the

[01:03:31] Georgia: So

[01:03:31] joe: or whatever

was the

[01:03:32] Nick: Are they ending it on this season? … have a break?

[01:03:34] Georgia: Or have they been- Yeah … I’m curious. too because When they made that one that was more or less like a p- about politics- Mm-hmm …and about, I, I just couldn’t do it.

I’m like, you know what?

[01:03:45] joe: Yeah.

[01:03:46] Georgia: I need to escape from

[01:03:47] Bill: I need to escape from it.” You need a break.

[01:03:49] joe: Because we need the, a

little- It is

[01:03:51] Georgia: and I

[01:03:51] Nick: something a little bit more lighthearted. Yeah.

[01:03:53] Georgia: I know. My horror needs to be a little like, yeah, more-

[01:03:57] Bill: yeah, more-

[01:03:57] joe: of light, I was gonna, I was gonna ask about Wanda [01:04:00]

Maximoff in the MCU- Yeah.

Scarlet

[01:04:01] Nick: She’s- The Scarlet Witch

[01:04:03] joe: that

duality of both good and, , when she’s grief stricken, she’s, \ , a

little

[01:04:09] Georgia: Don’t mess with

her

[01:04:10] joe: Agatha … you know. It was Agatha all along. I gave that reference earlier, no

[01:04:13] Nick: You did. I know. So I’m bringing it

[01:04:14] joe: fits. I’m

bringing it back

now more full-throated.

[01:04:17] Nick: enjoyed that

[01:04:18] Georgia: Agatha all Along.

I gave that reference earlier. Yeah.

I really, I r-

Now

[01:04:20] Nick: I

think WandaVision and Agatha All Along were super well-written.

Mm-hmm.

[01:04:25] Bill: Yeah. Very

cool.

[01:04:26] Georgia: Like, Agatha All Along-

[01:04:28] joe: Yep

[01:04:29] Georgia: was

[01:04:29] Nick: Holy shit

that show

[01:04:31] joe: positive examples, I mean, I think they’re,

I mean, we, ’cause I’ve s- said horror, they have it as mostly, but I think that’s one where you get… It is n- nuanced.

[01:04:40] Bill: Yeah. there’s

[01:04:40] joe: have that

kind of, right, that, that story there of them using their abilities , to empower themselves- Mm-hmm

and to get, what they want. I mean, right?

Mm-hmm. That’s kind of the

whole idea there.

[01:04:51] Georgia: And

then you do have the more lighthearted, like Bewitched.

[01:04:53] joe: Like Bewitched, that’s

right, yeah. And I

[01:04:55] Georgia: think- Bewitched was just brilliant because- she was just al- like, he was just such [01:05:00] a fricking idiot.

You know? And like, just

[01:05:03] Bill: it’s

just like…

[01:05:05] Nick: I don’t

[01:05:05] Georgia: know. I loved Bewitched when I was… I loved watching

that.

[01:05:08] Bill: that was good.

[01:05:09] joe: Yeah,

[01:05:10] Bill: You know, the, you know, Terry Pratchett In his Discworld

we have hundreds of, Right of books in there. A good chunk of those are witch.

He’s got a g- group of witches, and those are really fun,

Very positive, like cla- classic, you know, wise woman style- Yeah

[01:05:27] Georgia: Oh, very good.

[01:05:28] Bill: The mother, the crone, and they, like, get things done. And a lot of their magic is really just-

knowing

things. Just- Yeah

[01:05:36] Georgia: Just being wise …

[01:05:38] Bill: wise …just being wise. Yeah. Not like magic, but just, like, knowing, Don’t eat that mushroom.”

[01:05:41] Georgia: Don’t lick the

rock,

[01:05:43] Bill: one. Yeah, exactly.

[01:05:44] Georgia: Listen-

[01:05:45] joe: Listen- And you

[01:05:45] Nick: this is how I get my powers.

[01:05:47] joe: You also had, like, the Wizard of Oz, I think. We didn’t… I don’t think we’ve touched on that in 1939, and I think that set the template for what we think of

in

[01:05:55] Georgia: You have the Wicked Wi- right?

witch but you also

[01:05:58] joe: skin and the pointed hat …

[01:05:59] Nick: I [01:06:00] feel like that was also tied in racism.

Like-

[01:06:03] joe: You did have some of

[01:06:04] Georgia: then you had the Good

[01:06:05] Nick: the Good

[01:06:06] Georgia: witch

[01:06:07] Nick: because She’s all, white and pure It could

[01:06:09] joe: But you also had the I mean, like the, the hat

[01:06:11] Bill: too Well,

[01:06:12] Nick: do. It’s ’cause I’m bewitched. Thank

you. the

[01:06:15] joe: hat was actually a Puritan fashion as- accessory. It wasn’t part of the witch costume element. Like, they didn’t really go around wearing the pointy

hats like that. Mm-hmm. But that in The Wizard of Oz, that, so that witch hat, that is…

That’s totally-

100%

[01:06:30] Bill: 100% from The Wizard of Oz? Or, yeah. Because visually?

[01:06:33] joe: It’s-

[01:06:33] Georgia: It’s a- No, it was a Puritan hat

[01:06:35] joe: It’s a

Puritan hat, right, but I mean, it wasn’t

…associated- Puritan …with

witches per se.

It was just this Puritan kind of thing, and they associate it. Now we associate that with witches more.

If you see someone with that pointy hat, you

don’t go, “Oh, they’re a Puritan.” No.

You, which, I mean, a Puritan and witch is

probably-

No … polar opposites.

[01:06:49] Nick: Are they not the

[01:06:50] joe: not the

same?

[01:06:51] Nick: I’ve always thought that they were the same.

[01:06:53] Bill: So yeah- …

[01:06:54] joe: no, I think that’s

[01:06:55] Bill: You’ve gotta see- ParaNorman. You can get to

see the witches fight the Puritans Yeah …in that one.

There’s some good

[01:07:00] stuff.

[01:07:00] Nick: the Puritans. There’s some good stuff. I’m totally down for that. Oh wait, that was the

claymated? …

[01:07:03] Bill: Yeah, that, like,

stop-motion

animated one.

Oh, I

[01:07:05] Nick: I

do remember that.

[01:07:06] Bill: where, like,

Oh … …

it’s zombies, but they’re Puritan zombies- Yeah … who are brought

back by a curse from a witch-

[01:07:11] Nick: I remember that … Type of thing.

Yep.

[01:07:12] Bill: Yeah. That’s got some good stuff.

in

[01:07:14] Georgia: So- I did- Oh, go ahead.

[01:07:16] joe: Oh, I was gonna say, I was gonna… I was just on a movie kick here looking at my list, and I had the Witch of Eastwick-

Witch

[01:07:21] Nick: Which

I

just watched recently.

[01:07:23] joe: then it’s a book also, which-

It’s a

book …

It is a book yeah.

[01:07:27] Nick: Just like Practical Magic?

[01:07:28] Georgia: Practical Magic- is a book- … and then a movie of course,

Which

[01:07:32] Nick: I

didn’t know about …

[01:07:33] joe: they’re

[01:07:33] Georgia: making a n- a new

one. Which

[01:07:35] Nick: I think it’s coming out this

month.

[01:07:37] Georgia: very… And then-

[01:07:38] Nick: last month …

[01:07:39] Georgia: and

then-

[01:07:39] Nick: or

[01:07:39] Bill: a TV show?

[01:07:40] Nick: Movie.

Oh.

Number

[01:07:41] Georgia: the, but also

the book.

I also think she’s releasing a book. I think

[01:07:45] Nick: a book.

I think the book already came out.

[01:07:46] Georgia: Okay.

[01:07:47] joe: Yeah. It was

John Updike, right? He wrote Witch

[01:07:50] Nick: Which I can’t wait to see.

[01:07:51] Bill: Wait, really?

[01:07:52] Nick: Practical Magic 2.

[01:07:53] joe: Wait, really? …

Fresh. Didn’t he write it? Didn’t he write that?

Oh. Am I wrong about

[01:07:55] Bill: not know.

[01:07:55] Nick: I

think we’re planning on going,

[01:07:57] joe: Let

[01:07:57] Nick: opening weekend.

[01:07:59] Bill: [01:08:00] Is it just in time for

Halloween

[01:08:01] Nick: believe

so. I’m gonna look that up real quick.

[01:08:04] Bill: I had no idea.

[01:08:07] Georgia: And then I was gonna mention- it

[01:08:08] joe: was a 1984 novel by John Updike. The sequel was The Widows of Eastwick. Oh. Was published in 2008.

But It

[01:08:16] Nick: came out September 10th.

Oh.

[01:08:19] Bill: It’s happening

already.

They’re already here

[01:08:22] Nick: I am late.

[01:08:25] joe: But I think it was like the, the book, it was supposed to be like a, a female power, you know, kind of empowerment story.

[01:08:32] Georgia: The Witches of Eastwick. or Practical

[01:08:34] joe: The Witches of Eastwick was supposedly a… But, you know, the, a lot of people say the book didn’t really push it as hard as the movie did. So the movie really kind of- I mean-

That

[01:08:44] Nick: the actresses in it For Sure

were fantastic.

Right.

[01:08:47] Georgia: Right, right, right. And then the thing

[01:08:49] Nick: Oh, Cher … Practical-

Holy shit, she was amazing …

[01:08:51] Georgia: Practical Magic, it was, like, female friendship, and it was like… And if you think about it, what-

[01:08:58] Nick: Well, the

covenant was, that they [01:09:00] had, they ended up pulling that group of women together, and they all had such a strong bond, like, after the fact.

It was beautiful.

[01:09:08] Georgia: is beautiful And then think about movies about female friendships. There’s not a lot. There is not a lot. I think of Thelma Louise and-

[01:09:16] Nick: Ocean’s

13

[01:09:17] Georgia: end well? No.

[01:09:19] Nick: Yeah. Ocean’s 13, Gilmore Girls,

[01:09:23] Bill: Gilmore

[01:09:24] joe: Ginger

[01:09:24] Nick: me some Gilmore

[01:09:25] Bill: Ginger Snaps.

[01:09:26] Georgia: I

don’t know

about that.

[01:09:27] Bill: of

[01:09:28] joe: Spiced Girls.

Okay, I’m just

[01:09:30] Georgia: Okay, I’m just saying.

[01:09:31] Nick: I can go on.

[01:09:32] joe: I

[01:09:33] Georgia: Magic really-

[01:09:34] Nick: really- Oh, yeah, but, like, women being- friends in movies and TV shows I can back you up on those. you need recommendations, I will

give

you. them.

[01:09:44] Georgia: Okay, good.

[01:09:46] Bill: And

[01:09:46] Georgia: I was gonna have a little show and tell in our podcast that you can’t see.

[01:09:50] Nick: Oh, wow.

But-

Is that the book of the dead, Georgia?

[01:09:54] Bill: Georgia? No, this

[01:09:55] Georgia: No, this is-

[01:09:56] Nick: The Necro- This is Grady

Hendrix,

[01:09:59] Georgia: Witchcraft,

[01:10:00] R-

[01:10:00] joe: Rich…

[01:10:01] Nick: Raw.

[01:10:02] Georgia: ugh Witchcraft?

Yes, For Wayward Girls. And I’ve read this, and I didn’t know, and Joe bought this beautiful-

[01:10:09] Bill: a beautiful

[01:10:10] Georgia: is beautiful, This beautiful Subterranean Press copy …of it where this artist- Babs

Y- we actually met her at Dragon Con.

[01:10:20] Nick: you get it signed?

Awesome.

[01:10:21] Georgia: No, because I mean, it, how, I didn’t have this book. You didn’t? Well, it is signed. Oh. ‘Cause

[01:10:22] Nick: we didn’t have- Oh …I didn’t have this

[01:10:23] joe: book. It was already signed, yeah. It is signed.

[01:10:25] Nick: Oh.

[01:10:25] Bill: sh- ‘Cause that’s, when

[01:10:26] joe: that’s,

[01:10:26] Georgia: you

purchase it, it’s signed by Grady Hendrix and the artist.

[01:10:30] Bill: awesome.

[01:10:30] Nick: Yes.

[01:10:31] Georgia: it is,

[01:10:31] joe: like-

[01:10:32] Georgia: and we actually bought one of her you know, prints of one of her pieces that is like this.

But look at this artwork.

[01:10:38] Bill: Oh, man, it’s

[01:10:39] Georgia: It’s just-

[01:10:40] Bill: evocative ……

[01:10:41] Georgia: oh, my gosh. But this is, …I have to say this is one of my very favorite Grady Hendrix books, and it is so powerful. I don’t know if you guys

have

[01:10:51] Nick: it. worth the wi- read?

[01:10:52] Georgia: to What Street? Oh, my gosh, it’s so good.

And

it’s about, witchcraft is in there, but [01:11:00] more importantly, it’s about the time period in our history where girls that were pregnant were all just taken away and put- into …these maternity houses. And then their baby’s …taken away. So,

I,

I wanna ‘

say

[01:11:17] joe: ’60s?

[01:11:17] Georgia: 60s?

[01:11:18] Bill: say ’60s.

[01:11:19] Georgia: I’d have to look, but it’s just, it’s so good. Anyway.

[01:11:24] Nick: Very.

[01:11:25] Georgia: So That was

my-

Sure.

[01:11:26] joe: That’s awesome …

[01:11:27] Georgia: and-

[01:11:28] Bill: I’ve read a few Grady hendrix books.

[01:11:30] Georgia: I’ve read Grady Hendrix books. Yeah,

and I think this is, like, my favorite. This, and then I love Southern, The Southern, Book Club Guide to Slaying- Vampires

or

something.

I don’t…

Like,

but there’s also another book about the same, it not in about the witchcraft, but about that same thing about the, that time period when so many women

were,

had no control over their bodies and were taken, and it was like, “Oh, here’s this pregnant girl.

We can take her [01:12:00] baby,” because another book, and it was actually by that same woman, Megan Church, wrote The Girls We Sent Away. And it’s so good. So anyway.

[01:12:09] joe: So I wanna- But the pivot, ’cause I hadn’t, you know, you do a

[01:12:13] Georgia: two, doing a

little

[01:12:13] joe: research,

and there’s just some weird

stuff. But during the Salem kind of hysteria two dogs were killed also.

We d- we talked about the human

victims- … but two …

[01:12:25] Bill: but the dogs,

[01:12:26] joe: and

they were not officially tried or executed by the court.

Instead they were killed by terrified superstitious residents who believed the animals were either witchers- witch familiars or demons in disguise.

And so

that was,

[01:12:39] Bill: did those dogs do to

[01:12:40] joe: that was like,

[01:12:41] Nick: know- They

[01:12:42] Georgia: Oh,

my gosh … it

[01:12:43] joe: cast some spell … it was really

[01:12:44] Nick: They got r- a little mischievous, like- I mean, it’s

[01:12:45] Georgia: like-

Wow I mean, they go like

That is being in the-

[01:12:47] joe: don’t like someone’s

dog. …Like- Yeah. We need- I don’t like your dog, Bill. I think it’s a witch.”

[01:12:50] Nick: dog looked at me

[01:12:51] Bill: night.

[01:12:52] joe: We

[01:12:52] Georgia: being in the wrong place at the wrong time. That

[01:12:55] joe: dog just kinda chilling like, “What?

[01:12:57] Georgia: Me?”

[01:12:57] Nick: at the wrong time. That poor dog is kinda chilling like, “What? Me?” That dog’s eyes are going this

way and [01:13:00] that way. Huh? “You talking to me?” He left a

[01:13:00] Bill: and “

[01:13:00] joe: You’re talking to me?”

[01:13:02] Bill: left a

spell

all over my front

[01:13:03] Nick: The guy,

[01:13:04] Bill: That’s what

[01:13:04] joe: yeah. That’s what got it. They, they

really knew, and he was like, “You talking to me?”

[01:13:09] Nick: I wanna go poop on your floor.”

[01:13:12] joe: I think that’s

[01:13:13] Georgia: no.

[01:13:13] Bill: I’ve heard

about pigs being tried? And, you know, animals, But boy, two dogs getting-

Two dogs. pulled into that. That’s

[01:13:19] joe: kinda

[01:13:20] Nick: that.

That’s so sad. Poor puppers.

[01:13:21] Bill: I would love to see that story.

The Salem witch trial.

From

The two dogs

that

[01:13:26] joe: suspected. That’s right, yeah.

[01:13:27] Bill: It’s Just

What?

[01:13:27] Nick: Huh?

[01:13:28] joe: Huh? They’re coming for

you.

[01:13:29] Bill: you.

It’s

[01:13:30] joe: It’s like

Lady and the Tramp meets, you know,

[01:13:32] Bill: my. The Crucible.

[01:13:33] joe: Yeah.

[01:13:35] Georgia: Scarlet Letter

[01:13:36] Bill: and Lady

and the Tramp.

[01:13:37] Nick: You never suspect the Spanish.

Inquisition.

Oh.

[01:13:43] Bill: Inquisition. There you go. I

[01:13:43] joe: got it good, yeah. Yeah. No.

[01:13:45] Bill: go back to the

’70s- …we have Dis- … and have Disney- Yeah … animate that.

[01:13:48] joe: Yeah, go to Disney. We got a perfect story for you. Yeah. All right. Well, I think we’ve-

Well-

Go ahead. You got something? Yeah.

[01:13:56] Nick: So, I’m gonna go ahead and ask the table what’s your favorite [01:14:00] witchcraft media?

[01:14:01] joe: Witchcraft media?

[01:14:02] Georgia: Yeah.

[01:14:04] Bill: that’s

[01:14:04] Nick: when- Books.

Oh, I see.

[01:14:06] joe: I thought you meant like myrtle and petals or

you know,

raven’s feathers.

[01:14:10] Georgia: I

[01:14:10] Nick: you wanna start it off?

[01:14:11] Georgia: I, prefer potions.

No.

[01:14:13] joe: Yeah.

I’m like…

[01:14:16] Georgia: I have to say my favorite witch is Ruth Gordon in Rosemary’s Baby.

[01:14:22] Bill: Oh, she’s so great.

[01:14:23] Nick: Ah, yes. Ah,

[01:14:24] Bill: yes. Ah, with that little voice.

Ah.

So,

like, politely

insistent

You know? But, like, “Get, what are you… Get out of here. I didn’t invite you

in.” “Oh, “No,

it’s all right. I’m

coming in

Like,

[01:14:38] joe: anyways.” “It’s fine. It’s great. Don’t worry about it. It’s

[01:14:40] Bill: gritty, Don’t worry about it. “It’s tannis root, You’re fine.”

[01:14:43] Georgia: fine.”

You’re losing your hair?

[01:14:45] joe: hair? Awe, it’s

[01:14:47] Georgia: Aww, it’s

[01:14:47] Bill: Oh, man.

Well, for me, I… There are so many great, like, witch movies, but the

things that resonate with me are these witch stories

I’ve read- like n- Novels and short stories and stuff by [01:15:00] …specifically, like, Laird Barron, somebody I’ve read a lot in the last 20 years or so, who does awesome cosmic horror- and also, like, pulp-

[01:15:10] joe: also, like, witch-

[01:15:10] Bill: right …

stuff. And when he combines them together,

It

doesn’t get much better than that for me.

He’s got a story in one of his first collections I read called Old Virginia, which is, like, narrated by a old five-star general that’s gone to seed, and he’s doing, like, one last job for the for the government. A black ops, black bag job. He’s just supposed to be watching this science experiment, and it just so happens the science experiment is

on this ancient witch who’s- like- wow who is- the …familiar

of an ancient earth goddess. And they think they’re in control, and they’re not, you know. And it’s such a, it’s such a hard-boiled story

and also, like,

such a creepy story.

[01:15:56] Nick: I,

[01:15:56] Bill: think about that one all the time.

[01:15:57] Nick: I have to check

that out.

[01:15:59] Bill: It’s

not long. [01:16:00] It’s- Yeah. Yeah … It’s a great Halloween read. Old Virginia by Laird Barron. We’ll

[01:16:04] Georgia: Ooh. I’ll definitely check that, out. And I definitely wanna… …I le- I wanna look up the More Weight. That sounds- Yes.

[01:16:11] Nick: That one sounds amazing

[01:16:13] Bill: that one was a heck of a read. It was very long, really beautifully drawn. incredible stuff in there. Oh, yeah. It, did this… Have you guys ever read From

Hell- Yeah … by Alan Moore? It… He was obviously influenced by From

[01:16:26] Georgia: From Hell- N- From Hell is- … Jack the- Yeah Ripper, right? Jack the Ripper.

[01:16:28] joe: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[01:16:29] Georgia: Yeah.

[01:16:29] Bill: but, like, in From Hell, Alan Moore does this thing where, like, he jumps back and forth a little bit between… Well, like,

Jack the Ripper sort of initiates the 20th century in a way, and there’s this, like, long, awesome chapter where he takes his, like, helper around London and points out all these spots where the patriarchy is chaining- or just destroying the matriarchy, and this is leading- into what the 20th century will be,

and [01:17:00] he is doing this spell, basically, how he kills and where he kills, that’s going to initiate the 20th century. And in More Weight, he j- he does a similar thing where he jumps through time. He does the, like, straight, this is what happened in Salem story, but then he jumps back to, I mean, forward to, like,

Nathaniel hawthorne,

and another author I can’t rem- oh, I can’t believe

I forgot his name.

Their,

Haw- Hawthorne’s,

like, great-great-grandfather was one of the, one of the judges, Hathorne, and he actually changed his name so he wouldn’t be associated with That- Yeah. And then he wrote a bunch of stories- like the House of the Seven Gables and

stuff- Yeah … yeah,

[01:17:42] Georgia: Self- Yeah. Yeah- that were …

[01:17:43] Bill: trying to, like- saying that this is bad and crazy. And so you get that story, and then you get a

s- you

get,

like, what’s Salem like

now and how everything is

cartoony

and commercialized- Yeah

and witches are, like, just these, like, silly-

[01:17:56] Georgia: Magnet … yes. You get a magnet. or like-

you get a little

[01:17:59] Bill: of it or this, [01:18:00] like, or this little puppet

or whatever.

[01:18:01] Nick: I’m not even gonna lie to you … my movie is one of those. Yeah? Hocus Pocus.

[01:18:07] Bill: Hocus Pocus.

[01:18:08] Nick: I- …

love- that movie.

[01:18:11] Bill: I don’t think I’ve seen that. No? No.

I mean- I gotta check that out …

[01:18:14] Nick: I don’t know if it’s nostalgia for me for that one, because, like, I watched it when I was really young- obviously, or if it’s actually any good. I

can’t-

[01:18:23] Bill: when

the devil gets his

hooks

[01:18:24] Nick: I can’t tell you.

But it’s one of those movies where it’s like, “Oh, yeah, this is a Salem movie”- and you’re like

[01:18:30] joe: like-

[01:18:31] Bill: like- “

Oh, “

[01:18:31] Nick: Oh, okay.” Like, I know the backstory of it now, and that’s really…

dark

[01:18:37] Georgia: it’s

[01:18:37] Bill: weird, right?

[01:18:38] Nick: Yeah. What about you, Joe? What’s your go-to?

[01:18:41] joe: Yeah, you know, I was gonna… It didn’t come up in the episode, but I had it on my list, ’cause… and that was the Blair Witch Project. Oh,

[01:18:49] Bill: boy, oh, boy.

Because

[01:18:50] joe: you don’t…

[01:18:51] Nick: You don’t, you

[01:18:52] joe: you don’t s- …you don’t

see the witch, which we talked a lot about this, and it’s really about the paranoia- Yes … of something of an event, [01:19:00] of just this kind of shared- … psychosis, this kind of shared

[01:19:03] Georgia: like The Thing? like The Thing.

yeah.

[01:19:05] Nick: The Thing. Which I never

really- yeah, took that movie as a witch movie. be- right. I, It’s in the title, yes. But- you don’t ever see it until the very end. right.

[01:19:13] joe: Yeah. You don’t

even… At

the

[01:19:15] Georgia: And you don’t even really

[01:19:16] joe: in a corner, right? I mean,

that’s all, that story

re- That’s right, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

[01:19:21] Bill: That’s

just so great and

[01:19:22] Nick: That’s such a good movie …

[01:19:24] Bill: that, gets the closest to making you feel like maybe- the c- people in Salem might have felt at

[01:19:30] joe: right. That’s right.

[01:19:31] Bill: That paranoia- that, like- creeping dread- …that something- …is out there …and completely out of your control- and maybe it’s got powers that you can’t- understand

or control … and

[01:19:40] joe: mention a, a modern one, and that’s, and then we gotta cut right off the air, but Widow’s Bay-

I think also has

[01:19:47] Georgia: Oh.

[01:19:47] Bill: God, I love it …

[01:19:48] joe: that, that witch, that

that-

It’s all that undertone of it,

[01:19:52] Georgia: Oh, Yeah,

Patricia Getting the book

[01:19:54] joe: And they had the mushrooms, they had the hallucinogenic mushrooms, that rye bre- You know. Yeah. all these

things

we talked about [01:20:00] as I was thinking about

less there,

but- You were on the podcast … of Blair Witch and… Yeah, right. It’s I mean, you

told

me not to… You told me to be supportive.

Yeah, no, I think that’s,

Yeah,

so that’s a good one and I thought about that. But I was also in a Widow’s Bay-

[01:20:12] Nick: Yep, yep. at,

[01:20:13] joe: At Dragon Con, so that was really fun. But-

[01:20:15] Georgia: was really fun. Oh, nice. But, And another new,

another fairly recent one is of course Aunt Gladys

From, Weapons Oh.

Oh.

[01:20:23] joe: Oh, right.

Yeah,

[01:20:24] Nick: I was

like, Aunt Gladys.

Okay,

great. Your Aunt Gladys, is a

witch. Great.”

[01:20:28] Georgia: and they’re gonna make the story about Aunt Gladys, yeah. So that’s

…gonna

be something. to look

[01:20:33] Bill: That’s really interesting. I totally forgot

about that, but

[01:20:36] joe: There you go … yeah.

So many, like you said. Yeah. There’s just a lot as you start going down the

the rabbit hole.

hole.

[01:20:40] Nick: Mm-hmm. But thank you so very much- for being here again. for your three-peat.

[01:20:45] Georgia: Three-peat.

[01:20:47] Nick: Woo.

Next year you’re coming on for Satanism, right?

That’s

right?

Hell

[01:20:51] joe: right, yeah.

[01:20:52] Bill: Let’s Talk about D&D and the occult.

[01:20:54] Georgia: Yes.

[01:20:55] joe: Yes.

Well, you

got me,

Joe.

[01:20:57] Bill: up

a new

[01:20:57] Nick: You got Nick.

[01:20:58] Georgia: Georgia.

What you got, Georgia?

[01:20:59] joe: time. What do you [01:21:00] got, Georgia?

[01:21:00] Nick: And we

went

down some witchy holes. Love y’all. Bye

[01:21:05] Georgia: Stay safe.

All those

[01:21:08] joe: those black

[01:21:08] Georgia: cats.

Love y’all.

[01:21:10] Nick: Bye.

[01:21:11] Bill: Bye.

[01:21:13] joe: Bye.