Pave paradise over with a parking lot? Dunes, ecology, nature and neurobiology, and Poison Ivy.

In Episode 78 of Rabbit Hole of Research, Joe, Nick, Georgia, and Mary welcome guests Anne Sedlacek and TJ Gaertig of Save Briar East Woods to explore the 32-acre dune forest in Hammond, Indiana.

Briar East is the last sliver of a 4,700-year-old sand ridge, an urban forest sitting just south of steel mills and oil refineries, and it’s doing the work of soaking up the stormwater that would otherwise be in somebody’s basement.

The crew talks about how UChicago’s Henry Cowles invented ecology on these very dunes, what Marc Berman’s walk-in-the-park research says about nature and your brain, why fiction keeps casting tree defenders like Poison Ivy as the villain, and what the forest might actually say if we could learn to speak tree.

GeorgIa and Jim’s Touch of Noir 2027 Wall Calendar —

12 months of all-original art by Jim and Georgia; orders are open now, with mailing expected in September

Basement Studio’s New Look:

Check out what the RHR crew is creating:

Joe:

Named by the Guild Literary Complex as one of the 35 Writers to Watch!
Red Line: Chicago Horror Stories Anthology featuring a story by Joe!
Joe’s Sci-fi physiological thriller Novel: Will You Still Love Me If I Become Someone Else?
Joe’s Rom-Com Novella: Tomorrow May Be Too Late
Essay by Joe: From Beyond Press: Specific Knowledge: Jotham Austin, II, PhD on Transformations in Fiction

Future Events to Hang with the Crew:

Podcast Cross-Appearances

Joe on GoIndieNow: 21grams with Joe Compton talking about villains.
RHR Crew on This Podcast Will Change Your Life with Ben Tanzer

Events & Conventions:

Dragon Con — Atlanta, GA (September 3-7, 2026) – Joe attending as Professional

It’s Science for Weirdos

Want to support the show? Tell your friends. Follow us on social media, Discord, share the podcast, and let us know what topics you are excited about. Leave a Comment. And for email alerts sign-up for the Substack newsletter and never miss an episode, exciting updates or the bonus images we talk about on the episodes.

We discussed these questions on the episode and now want to Hear From You (leave a comment):

What’s a movie, show, or comic that villainizes nature, and did you catch it while watching/reading?
Is there a patch of woods, a park, or a green space that anchors you to where you live? What would you lose if it were gone?
When’s the last time you were really out in nature? Did you feel the difference?

Drop your thoughts in the comments. We read them all, and your ideas often shape future episodes.

Future Episodes

Episode 80: Magic: the Power and Cost of Magic SystemsGuest: B.L.Mostyn
Episode 82: Climate Change and Data CentersGuest: David Pincus, PhD
Episode 84: ETGuest: Chris Guzman (@theboxinggloveartist)

Show Notes & Fun facts

Stuff crew said they’d put in shownotes

Save Briar East Woods — the website (savebriareastwoods.com)
- Documentary: youtu.be/7NFDIby31O4
Mayor’s Night Out — gohammond.com
Big Brains / Marc Berman:
- “How to Use Nature to Restore Your Focus, with Marc Berman”
- https://climate.uchicago.edu/news/how-to-use-nature-to-restore-your-focus-with-marc-berman/
Anne’s Band (Shy Bronco) instagram: @shy_bronco
- Wed, Aug 26 — The Owl, Logan Square (Chicago)
- Sun, Aug 30 — The Cellar Door, Michigan City

Books

When Trees Testify: Science, Wisdom, History, and America’s Black Botanical Legacyby Beronda Montgomery

Movies

Avatar
The Lorax
The Fog (John Carpenter)
The Blair Witch Project
The Wizard of Oz
Pocahontas (Grandmother Willow)
Beauty and the Beast
Killer Piñata (features The Owl bar in Logan Square)

TV

Harley Quinn (HBO Max animated series)
Dark Matter (Apple TV+, filmed in Chicago — also features The Owl)

Comics / Characters

Poison Ivy (DC)
Ra’s al Ghul (DC)
Batman (DC)
Swamp Thing (DC)
Man-Thing (Marvel)

Fun Facts to Impress Your Friends With:

Briar East Woods is old. This 32-acre forest sits on a 4,700-year-old sand ridge, an ancient Lake Michigan shoreline that dried out and slowly built itself into a forest.
Your brain sees a forest in “low-res.” Nature is full of fractals, repeating, scale-free patterns you see in a snowflake, a coastline, or a tree canopy. Your brain processes them easily, like a compressed image file, so a walk in the woods actually rests your attention. A walk down a city street, where you’re constantly labeling buildings and signs, works it harder.
Eleven trees on your block = a $10,000 raise. UChicago researcher Marc Berman found that adding about 11 trees per city block improved people’s health by an amount comparable to a $10,000 salary bump, or feeling seven years younger. Just put the phone away while you’re out there; the effect doesn’t work if you’re scrolling.
The U.S. loses about 36 million urban trees a year. A 2018 USDA study found American urban and community areas shed roughly 36 million trees annually — about 175,000 acres, or 1% of canopy every five years — almost all of it paved over. When that study came out, Georgia was the state losing canopy fastest.

Episode Highlights

00:00 — Meet the Crew and Guests: Joe, Nick, Georgia, and Mary break in the newly redecorated basement studio and welcome in-studio guests Anne and TJ.
01:10 — Joe’s Opening Monologue: Joe rewinds 4,700 years to the moment a Lake Michigan sand ridge stopped being a beach and slowly became the forest we now call Briar East Woods.
04:34 — Why Briar East Matters: Anne calls it the last sliver of genuine ancient dune ecosystem left, with plants that are thousands of years old and benefits Hammond’s administration refuses to recognize.
07:00 — Bridge Plan Explained: Anne lays out the Governor’s Parkway project — a bridge that would take 12 of the woods’ 32 acres and clear the path for a 68-lot subdivision and two commercial spaces.
08:16 — Urban Nature and Health: The crew digs into research showing wooded areas boost the brain, and why urban green space matters most where pollution and truck traffic are heaviest.1
6:46 — Fractals and Brain Rest: Joe explains how nature’s fractal patterns let your brain process the world in “low-res,” resting your attention the way a compressed image saves space.
20:48 — Trees as Living History: Joe connects photosynthesis to 150-to-200-year-old black oaks that literally hold the history of everyone who’s ever exhaled beneath them.
23:30 — Safety Claims Debunked: TJ dismantles the school-safety pitch — the bridge is a mile from the actual train crossing and would send kids on a two-mile detour.
33:47 — Flooding and Sewage Reality: TJ describes Hammond’s overdevelopment turning streets into rivers and basements into raw-sewage pools, with Briar East acting as the last sponge.
37:50 — Political Pushback Ideas: Mary floats handing out sponges at the Mayor’s Night Out.
39:27 — Council Meeting Reality: Mary describes public expression as wailing into the heavens while officials look down at their phones and refuse to engage.
39:56 — Project Stalled Timeline: The group confirms the project has sat untouched since June of last year — stalled, by some counts, for going on three years.
40:28 — Bears Stadium Politics: TJ suspects a potential Bears stadium could finally distract the mayor enough to let Briar East off the hook.
41:56 — Restoring Urban Nature: Joe points to Seoul, where tearing out an elevated highway to restore a stream brought a ~600% biodiversity jump, cooling, and rising property values.
44:38 — Can the Land Be Bought: Nick asks whether the group could just buy the land; Anne explains that with a reasonable administration maybe — but…
46:01 — Why Green Space Wins: The crew imagines Manhattan without Central Park and revisits Chicago’s Burnham Plan as proof that protected green space can become a city’s legacy.
49:17 — Poison Ivy Debate: Joe makes the case for Poison Ivy, a botanist turned defender-villain, and the crew questions why fiction keeps casting nature’s protectors as the bad guys.
57:24 — Call to Action Links: Anne shares savebriareastwoods.com and the Save Briar East Woods social handles, and TJ’s simplest ask: just go breathe it in.
58:43 — Parks Versus Wild: Mary draws the line between a manicured park and something primal and untouched, with the crew insisting they’re pro-park, too.
01:00:40 — Wildlife and Cicadas: Anne talks about the animals of Briar East nesting barred owls, foxes, hawks, bats, bullfrogs. And Joe asks, would you eat a cicada.
01:02:06 — Forest Screams and Cryptids: Nick asks if anyone goes out to scream into the trees, TJ admits the woods block the sound, and the need for a Briar East cryptid.
01:03:54 — What the Forest Says: Asked to speak for the trees, Anne and TJ answer simply — “I’m alive, I’m still here”
01:05:50 — Plugs and Farewell: Anne plugs the merch and her music (Shy Bronco), and the crew signs off with:

“Stay curious, stay safe… Love Y’all!”

Join Rabbit Hole of Research on Discord: https://discord.gg/2nnmKgguFV

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Transcript

[00:00:00]

joe: Hey, welcome back to

The Rabbit Hole of Research down here in the basement

studio

Mary: Fully

Nick: loaded …

joe: loaded.

The new redecorated,

reorganized- Reorganized …

basement studio. That’s right,

yeah.

don’t know what the…

Georgia: every

mic is full.

joe: every

mic

is full.

Every mic is full.

now. We had to, we knocked some walls out.

We went Iron

Man-

Nick: This is our cave.

TJ: move,

joe: mo- mode. Yeah,

yeah. I gotta

po- post, some pictures.

It really looks different in here.

But we, yeah, we have a great episode planned gonna be great.

Nick: it’s

going, yeah

Mary: Yes,

do.

Nick: You wanna introduce yourself

there,

buddy? Hi.

joe: I,

am Joe.

Yeah,

let’s get into it. I am, yeah, I’m Joe.

Nick: You got Nick.

Got

Georgia: Nick.

Georgia.

joe: got Georgia.

Mary: You got Georgia. And You got Mary.

You

Nick: You

Mary: Mary.

Nick: and hey, look, we got some special guests … over here.

Mary: In person, In studio …

In studio.

joe: studio.

Nick: In studio. All

Mary: six mics

joe: Are hot right now, so please.

Anne: I’m Anne.

joe: I’m Anne.

TJ: Okay. And I’m TJ.

joe: TJ, yep. And we are here to talk about Briar East Woods and urban [00:01:00] deforestation.

So yeah, so it’s,

Nick: hits- close to home for all

joe: home, yeah. We’re right here, and probably for a number of people in urban settings that, that have to deal with this, and we’ll get

into

lot of that.

Nick: Do, do you have a monologue for us

today, Joe?

joe: I have one. I,

This one touched me a little bit, so

I put

something together for y’all. I’m gonna lay it on you

Nick: I’m gonna start crying.

Mary: I’m

joe: start this episode

millennium ago four thousand seven hundred years ago to be exact.

By this point in

geological

time, Lake Michigan had already spent thousands of years shoving sand inland, building ridge after sand ridge, and then the water receded and one of these ridges dried

out, and this is the point it stopped being a beach and started transforming into something else.

Actually, what happened

next is the only reason there’s a forest in Hammond.

On this dry sand ridge,

marram grass came first and their roots formed a complex network that could hold the sand down so the wind couldn’t erode it back into Lake Michigan.

Over the next centuries,

the grass [00:02:00] dried, rotted and made something you could call soil.

That soil brought

Cottonwoods brought

Pines brought oaks, each one building the ground the next one needed, eventually transforming that sand ridge into a forest.

sure if

you’re keeping count, but to create a forest you need a lot of time.

It took

centuries for Briar East Woods to form.

To put this into context, compared to man-made urban jungles, Chicago burnt to the ground and rebuilt itself in 20 years.

To understand how a forest assembles, a little over a century

ago, a UChicago botanist named Henry Cowles walked these same dunes, noticed that walking inland was the same as walking forward through time and more or less invented the science of ecology.

And that ecology, in 32 acres of original ancient dune that is now a forest sitting in Hammond, like all urban forests, it’s

more important than most people realize. It absorbs storm water

that would o- otherwise be in someone’s basement, it pulls the temperature down a few [00:03:00] degrees on a summer afternoon, and it

does all this without sending anybody a bill.

126 years after henry Cowles worked out

how the dune assembled a forest, another UChicago researcher, Mark Berman, is now working out the positive effects nature and the forest can have on the human brain, calling it environmental neuroscience.

And that’s the trouble. All the benefit the forest does for free never

shows up on a city planner’s budget line, and there’s always an overpass that needs somewhere to go or a project to pave paradise to put it in a parking lot. Preach it, Joni Mitchell.

Nick: And if the

joe: the woods could

Petition politic, they’ll argue on their own the way they’re always doing in fiction, they win every time. But unfortunately, they can’t, so in

this episode, we’re gonna make the case for them.

Nick: Wow, Joe

Mary: That was

great. Thank-

Nick: I think

that was your best one.

Oh. That should be

the end of him.

You it.

Mary: That’s it You

guys heard anything? No,

I’ll see. it. We’re done. Pack it

joe: up.

Mary: Okay.

joe: Yeah,

no, I think

that’s

A, I

liked the, the place to [00:04:00] start.

I named a… went over a few things in there, and we’ll probably d- unpack it a little bit more.

But

I’ll go ahead and let the guests dive into the Briar Ridge,

What it is what it’s

Georgia: Briar East.

joe: Oh, sorry.

Briar R- Briar Ridge?

there

a Briar Ridge?

Is that

something?

TJ: is.

yeah.

There’s a lot of Briars ……like Hammond. Oh, that’s right.

Georgia: a housing yeah. housing development. Oh,

joe: right. I

don’t know why that’s a bad…

Mary: Stop.

Nick: That’s where the rich people are. We gotta get

Mary: Briar East Woods. Yeah.

joe: Oh, this will be edited out.

No,

Mary: Yeah. That’s okay.

joe: Yeah,

just to talk

about

Briar East, yeah, and just

Mary: you’re,

Nick: Briar East, what you guys are doing.

Mary: guys are doing. Yeah.

Well,

Anne: retreat to which you guys went Yeah. Well, I really like the historical perspective you put on that.

And I do think that the image of walking forward

from

the shoreline into

the

land

is so powerful

because

it really is such an ancient

place, and

it pales in comparison to,

you know,

the development that’s come up there over the past couple hundred years.

It’s

thousands of years old, 4,700 years old, as

you said. And it’s basically the last sliver of that

[00:05:00] ancient- dune land left, and it is genuine sand dune ecosystem,

which

makes it unique.

Yeah, the plants there, they are ancient plants, and they need to be saved because as you were saying as well,

you know,

even for

the

people who are living there, Hammond is a really industrialized-

…overdeveloped area already,

and the benefits of that forest are not being recognized at all by the administration there-

Yeah

For the people who live around it,

So,

yeah.

TJ: Yeah. I, like you were saying, I think, yeah, for the people of Hammond in northwest Indiana, spaces like this that anchor you to, like, the heritage of the land and,

Nick: like-

TJ: something that is real about where you live and not artificial

is is

really crucial for everyone’s psychology.

And Le- let alone it

being an urban

green space Yeah …for people to… With two and a half miles of trails in it that people constantly use until [00:06:00] the city fences it off. But,

Georgia: know-

And Can you give a little background on what is

happening- And why this is an

issue, Like-

Mary: Well, maybe,

like, l- well,

let’s step back a l- just a little bit even more than that.

Like,

We’re talking about Briar East Woods yeah, we,

you know,

We’re Briar East Woods i- in Hammond, Indiana, so- a- and

so,

How did you all get involved i- with this? How did you get started with this project, Anne?

Anne: Well,

TJ and I got involved at the same time- because we went to a

Hammond City council meeting, and we heard, there’s

a public

expression at every meeting,

and Ken Rosic would speak at the meetings every week. And

so we heard him talk,

And and then after that, we ended up running into him at a bar. And he gave us the whole spiel, and then- …a couple weeks later,

I think, gave us a

tour of the

woods. Yeah. And we were

hooked.

And We were hooked. ‘ cause it was so beautiful

to see it, and the idea of it not being there anymore,

It was really distressing. Yeah.

It was really distressing. And

[00:07:00] So yeah.

But,

Ken has been working… The

project has been in motion

since 2018.

So the city of Hammond

has a

bridge project that they’re trying to build

right through the woods. So it would take up 12 acres of the 32 acres of the woodland.

And it’s a bridge that’s supposed to go over the train tracks, but the way that it’s aligned, it basically clears the way for a path for an entirely new subdivision with 68 residential lots and then two commercial spaces,

which is what was included on the city of hammond’s grant application

to the state. And they used to deny that there was gonna be any housing, and then at some points the mayor, Mayor McDermott of Hammond, has slipped up and said, “Oh, no-” well, There might be or, you know, something like that. So they’re

TJ: would never rule it out. He would never rule it

Anne: he would never rule it

out.

Mary: And

if there

were, then just think how much more everyone else’s property values would go up,

Right.

Anne: Yeah.

joe: yeah. Yeah. If that were to happen. Yep. Yeah, yeah. Sounds like the, uh, plot to Avatar, right? Oh, yeah. Just go… Yeah, right. You know, like- Yeah … you just wanna use the natural resources- That’s right … just to, uh, dig through

Mary: If that were

to happen. Yeah.

joe: Sounds

like the the plot to Avatar.

right?

Avatar,

Nick: was just thinking the [00:08:00] exact same thing. I was

like,

Mary: “Wait, you

Nick: guys, you just wanna use the natural resources just to

say screw

Georgia: it'”?

joe: Cut down

a mother tree

and dig out

Nick: Might as well. Look at all the stuff in

there

joe: There’s gold in them there hills. That’s right. That’s right. All this stuff. We’re gonna make

tons of money. Everyone’s gonna make money,

gonna make money. right?

Yeah, no, I think

that’s

yeah

really,

cool. We were talking about the

kind of impact and the neurological part of it that you go and walking in the woods, there’s a lot of research into that now that having wooded area and people going into nature really has that positive effect on them.

And, just spending time, you have that. But the problem is when you live in urban areas the folks who can get to wooded areas is limited. So having this in an area like in Hammond and having that local resource so you don’t have to travel far. I think that’s another point there. So y- you said there was trails and things like that that- Yeah … crisscross through

Anne: Yeah. It’s super important to maintain that urban green space

and the access to it because it’s not only [00:09:00] beneficial for people, but it’s actually harmful living in an urban environment often- with the noise pollution. the air pollution. It is psychologically distressing as well as physically

distressing. And Living in cities with high amounts of pollution like that is linked to, Cardiovascular disease and anxiety depression, all types of things like that. So to take away urban green space in a place that already place has, like, the heaviest truck traffic in the country-

TJ: is directly south of two steel mills

and an oil refinery.

Georgia: and an oil refinery.

Right.

TJ: Right.

joe: Right. Yeah.

Right.

Yeah,

you have that.

But … the Indiana Dunes is an example where they built up industry and they maintained and preserved the dunes, creating a national park, the Lake- national lake shore in ’66, the Na-national park in 2019.

So you had this,

industry, so really a model exists that you

can- But also-

Georgia: that was because of just specific certain people that fought for [00:10:00] that. Yeah …

That’s right.

Yeah.

yeah. Which-

Mary: Yeah. Yeah. go ahead.

TJ: The,

the model that exists is industry and developers wanting all of it.

Georgia: Right,

Mary: Right.

Right.

TJ: is what’s happening i- with Briar East

Woods.

Right.

Georgia: then

someone standing up and saying, “Wait a second.”

TJ: And then, yeah, people

that live there mobilizing against

that-

that, force.

joe: Mm-hmm.

Nick: So are,

your mission to make it a national park, or- wh-

TJ: what-

Hey,

I’m not against it.

Nick: What

Mary: Why

joe: right. Right. Why not?

TJ: I

think just

a city park, really.

Anne: Or- Yeah.

Or-

Nick: Or,

TJ: be honest with you- just to leave it alone.

I mean-

Mary: Yeah. Yeah.

joe: But

it is a historical site

though, right?

I That’s the

thing. Like for this- it would-

Georgia: would

joe: would be nice if it was actually

Georgia: protected,

which- I don’t know what that means these

joe: That’s right. No, that’s it,

TJ: It doesn’t

carry much weight.

right.

Georgia: So

Anne: You know?

Mary: Right. So-

joe: yeah.

Nick: Just ’cause, with

the dunes being a national park, I didn’t know if that would be a-

…beneficial- goal

or if it’s just-

joe: An extension of the dunes, [00:11:00] like in that-

Yes

its

Anne: It is the

same dune ridge.

Like,

you know. The

TJ: high

tallest in shoreline.

joe: tallest and shoreline. That’s right. Yeah. So ideally, at the end of the day, it would be part of the national park. Right, right. I think the main goal right

Anne: So ideally, at the end of the day, it would be part

of the national park. But I

think the main goal

right now is to

stop

the

development project-

……which

the way is called Governor’s Parkway, and then it

would be

Nick: to- Yeah,

joe: like

any kind of-

TJ: it

Anne: and

Make sure that it’s a park, make sure it’s preserved,

you know, not gonna be developed in any way, shape, or form. And then maybe

can talk state and national level.

But

Yes.

joe: Yeah.

TJ: I’ll tell you what, something I find really interesting about Briar East Woods specifically, as opposed to protected parks that are across Northwest Indiana, is that it’s not a park,

it’s not protected, it’s just undeveloped land.

Mm-hmm. Which-

Right

lends a very unique character to it.

Mm-hmm.

One where it’s not like they close the doors and

shut the fence.

Georgia: organic. It’s

very

TJ: very organically, yeah. It’s extremely organic.

All the trails are made by the people that live there.

Yeah.

[00:12:00] Nothing is maintained.

It’s

only maintained by people that ride ATVs through there that need to chop up trees to fall on the trails.

And,

Anne: And

when we clean up. the and-

TJ: and …us. yes.

Mary: Yes.

joe: you mentioned Ken and his efforts,

right? He was a duster, is that-

what was it called, the,

TJ: Yeah. So- The the Dune

Anne: original name of the group, which is now more formally known as Save Briar East Woods.

it was the

Dune

Dusters- Dusters I think The Dune Dusters sounds cool.

joe: That’s Dune Dusters sounds cool.

TJ: I like a bunch of old guys- The Dune Dusters sounds cool.

Nick: I like that … who like to clean. I kinda wish you guys some… Yeah, right. me. the Dune

Anne: more swaggy. we- still use

Georgia: You could say AKA. say AKA. little icon, You

joe: got a little

icon,

a little

guy, like with a little duster kind of going through there.

Nick: Oh, I thought it was just a

jacket. How about Oh, a jacket, yeah.

joe: Not A a show, duster in the Dunes? yeah. like the play the album. A dust- a

yeah.

Georgia: There

joe: Yeah, duster can be

a little woodland creature.

TJ: or- it’s

joe: like, yeah, no. Yeah. No, that’s cool.

No, so that’s how

that all started. Community driven. Ken took the charge

Georgia: Now, You said you, you got involved in 2018. When did Ken

First,[00:13:00]

Anne: Ken first get involved? So the

project itself they City of Hammond applied for funding for it in 2018, and then Ken began organizing

TJ: a year

later.

Anne: Yeah.

Around

2019,

Nick: Oh, so you guys were, like, ground floor of

this.

Anne: on this. TJ and I

got

involved- in

it- Yay ……Yeah. It was very localized- before then to mostly people in… It’s in the Hessville neighborhood of Hammond.

so very local issue.

And then,

TJ: And then it branched out to people living in South Hammond.

You’re doing here. And

then

Mary: Those interlopers.

TJ: The whole country.

joe: What are you doing

Anne: And the region at

large, and The Midwest- Yes.

and the coal country. Yeah.

joe: The world.

Mary: world. The

Georgia: all

Nick: The world.

Anne: The world even

joe: What I was

gonna say,

I mean,

we- we’re focused on local because we all live in the Northwest Indiana area, and,

This is important. I mentioned about

The kind of storm water and things like that. Clean air, you mentioned noise control. But

I saw this USDA in 2018 paper.[00:14:00]

It was about US urban community are- areas lose approximately 36 million trees a year. About 175,000 acres, roughly 1% of canopy in five years, and almost all of that is swapped for impervious su- surfaces, so pavements, buildings, parking lots.

So you have this.

And I think it- they noted Georgia at the time was the state with the steepest canopy loss.

And so yeah, This is a serious problem

that- Like I

Georgia: when you think of deforestation-

Mm-hmm

you think of like the Amazon.

That’s right.

yeah.

joe: yeah. Cut and burn, that’s what we learn.

Georgia: Far

away.

Yeah. No, it’s happening-

joe: Here yeah.

And we

don’t think about it ’cause we’re,

We’re industrialized, and so we’re just marching forward with our structures, housing. Instead of going vertical, we like to go horizontal.

And I think that’s a,

you know,

The presidential center, Obama Presidential went up, and it’s a vertical structure. And people are like, “Oh, that’s… Why is it vertical?” It’s

like, and they were giving them a hard time, but really, they dedicated a lot of that space to restoring

[00:15:00] the …area around that, …and the

gardens and everything.

So there was some effort

in a

urban area to actually build a struc- build this museum, and then also have,

These structures that benefit the community- The

Georgia: I think that,

joe: and,

Georgia: I think

that also is a matter of

the community too.

Right.

That’s right. Yeah. Because Jackson Park-

has

Very passionate- people- Yeah. wanting to protect Jackson Park, So I’m sure that had a huge-

Mary: And

joe: I’m sure that

had part of it. I’m not saying

Georgia: they didn’t

listen. Right, Right. ’cause obviously, but-

joe: Well,

that Mark Berman, I think that was his… That’s a lot of his research.

The, the famous one was walk in the park experiments, where he had people go on a 50-minute walk through, the park. And their psychology changed. Their attention they could focus. So people with attention deficit, things like that,

they became much more aware, and they could actually focus on things like that.

Yeah, then he’s gone on to do other studies.

Ones where it’s like if you have just 11 trees, like per block, like that’s enough to actually start… That, that’s as [00:16:00] equivalent to a $10,000 salary raise or seven years of cardiovascular health

It’s really like just these

things. So he talks about that in, in spaces and stuff.

Yeah.

Georgia: There’s a great a

Big

Is it called Big

Brains?

joe: Big Brains. That’s right.

Yep,

Georgia: That’s right. Yeah. It’s a podcast from UChicago, and they had one-

…specifically on his

research Yeah. Okay.

So that’s something to check out- ’cause it’s really good … Oh,

Nick: it’s really good … listened to that other podcast. Oh, what was his name again? After you listen to this episode. after you

listen to this

joe: after you listen to this episode.

Nick: you

TJ: podcast. No.

Mary: After that. after

TJ: episode.

joe: Yeah.

right.

Mark Berman. Okay. Yeah, he’s a University

of Chicago, Yeah … faculty member. Yep. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Georgia: And they,

like you said, like even people that don’t like nature-

right. still got a

benefit like-

joe: did. Yep, yep, Yep, yep, That was some of his

research. Yeah.

Georgia: themselves- they still

got

joe: Even if you’re

there. But you can’t, you can’t be… It was really interesting.

You can’t be on like your phone in there. Put your phone away.

Nick: What

about- headphones? Can you- Yeah.

Is head- are headphones allowed? you

joe: no,

You wanna be immersed in nature.

And it was really

interesting ’cause then it was like, “Why?” and some of the [00:17:00] reasons that they had was that when you go through nature the environment is low res, right? So when you go through and they start this fractal idea. So a fractal is this kind of repeating, scale-free repeating pattern.

So like a snowflake, if you look at it, it’s got its shape. If you zoom in, you see the same shape. You zoom in further, it’s the same shape. So that’s a, a fractal. It’s a repeating kind of a pattern.

And when you’re out in

nature the structures, mountains, tree canopy, they have a fractal pattern. And so your brain can just process that, and if you think of it in computer terms one way you can,

Compress images is take

like, 100 megabit image and make it 10 because your brain doesn’t recognize the condensing

Of the pixels.

Nick: know a with me more than what you said before.

joe: learned a lot more from you than you said

before.

Oh, that’s what we

here. We

try to give a lot of

examples,

make

it work.

And so that’s kind of the idea, that

when you walk through the forest, your brain isn’t processing. Your brain also isn’t labeling everything. It’s like tree,

you know,

[00:18:00] leaf, grass.

You look at grass on the ground, you’re not counting every blade, whereas when you’re in an urban environment, you are processing a lot of language.

What’s this building? What’s this shop? What’s this here?

You’re going through …and your brain is

mentally mapping your environment much heavier

And your focus is really different.

So you have this kind of focus difference that you’re going through when you’re in nature, and that allows you then to, when you come out, you’re actually refreshed ’cause your brain wasn’t heavily worked in this- … this time period. So really it’s this- That’s interesting … it’s really

fascinating

research and

Going through that and how beneficial this is in, in some of the studies.

And then there was even, they tried to do it with pictures.

So would a picture of the farm nature work? And I think some of the re- th- I think

it was like, yeah, it’s just as good, but I think there’s other blind studies that are like,

eh,

you know,

it’s probably

best if you get out

and go. Yeah. But once

again, it’s

TJ: try. It was

joe: it’s

but it’s access, and

They had things where they did

In some of [00:19:00] the The

Projects and things in urban environments. And

They had it ’cause that’s randomized. You’re just put in whatever apartment. So some looked out to green spaces.

Some looked out to non-green spaces. Same thing with health patients. You’re assigned your

room

Georgia: random.

Just Having

windows.

was

joe: Having windows. Right. Having windows looking

out to a green space, that, that improved health recovery. That also led to

conditions in these kind of different homes,

Nick: So

Would having,

like,

those

windowsill plants

Be helpful, in that case, like if you’re in a

higher

floor?

joe: Right.

Right.

Yep. Yep. There was talk,

I mean, that was the other thing. It was about having indoor plants. So let’s say you’re in a space like the Basement Studio. We don’t get a lot of natural … We get

some

Nick: nothing green down here-

Mary: some.

joe: Yeah,

Nick: that is natural

joe: when I

was reading all

this

and doing

Georgia: we’d need, like, a sun lamp or …

joe: I thought you just need,

You need to have plants, have some artificial plants, because the same fractal- Artificial? Yeah, you can have artificial plants and have those in your

space.

Georgia: easier.

to care for [00:20:00]

joe: You won’t,

get the olfactory,

the smell, the, the kind of sensory, but you will get the visual kind of relaxation there. So yeah, that’s

Bringing,

you know,

These ideas

Georgia: tree

In the basement We

joe: tree we

need, in the in

a Basement Studio. We’re gonna

do like a … We need some more

TJ: gonna do, like, a, we need we can get

joe: a tree

and… the, We’ll just get

tree in a basement will plant one Right here in the middle. of the

Nick: desk.

Adopt, middle Adopt,

Georgia: adopt a tree.

for adopt a

joe: tree. Yeah, you’re gonna

We’ll write your name on every leaf or something. I don’t know. Do something. It’s artificial tree, not a real tree.

TJ: Oh.

Nick: Oh.

joe: Yeah. We’re not gonna torture a real tree that way. Oh,

Mary: Oh, yeah.

joe: But

Nick: We are anti-torturing trees.

thank you

that’s

TJ: our whole thing.

Nick: Oh,

is that what you.

g- Wait, are

you guys the pro getting rid of…

joe: you guys the pro game group?

Nick: guys no.

Anne: the pro guinea

pig? guys no. Yeah.

TJ: the pro getting rid of…? Guys, no.

Nick: Yeah.

Mary: You

guys,

joe: You mentioned

The age of some of those trees, and

think there’s black oaks, and they’re, like, in the

Hundreds of years

Anne: Yeah, 150, 200.

years old.

TJ: Yep.

joe: and there’s a…

talked about this on the mini, but I’m in the middle of [00:21:00] reading this book called When Trees Testify, so

really interesting. Do you know that? Do you… I see you saying,

“Okay, yeah,

It’s really cool.” It’s called Science, Wisdom, History, and America’s Black Botanical Legacy.

Beronda

Montgomery talks about these tree species through America, through the lens of Black America, and how these trees hold history.

And some of it is

just a process of photos- photosynthesis.

Mary: photosynthesis.

joe: Sunlight converting CO2 to sugars and producing oxygen on the back end that we breathe in,

and we

exhale CO2, carbon dioxide, for the plants to have this process happen.

And

the idea then is that

trees take that in. So historically people that were around a tree, you’re walking through Briar East and you’re breathing these trees are making your CO2 that you’ve exhaled, a part of you, molecules that were in your body then become part of this tree, its bark, its structures, its complex structures, its stable structures as it grows.

And so through [00:22:00] history, 150 years of history, that’s a, a century and a half, two centuries, 200 years old, that’s a lot of time and a lot of people who passed through there.

And both the good

And the bad, if we think

Of trees in American history what they were used for. So

it was just really good. And

so when you think of these ancient trees in forests like that, the history

And the things they’ve witnessed- Yeah … is really just powerful, and I think people don’t think about that, so.

TJ: Oh,

yeah. Yeah. I’m sure

there

are plenty of trees in Briar Woods that are

old as the city itself-

Oh, yeah if not older,

so.

joe: Yeah.

TJ: And just the individual tree, it’s been there the whole time.

joe: Right.

Right.

Watching,

Like judging.

TJ: S-

soaking it

in. Yeah.

Georgia: Yeah,

and that sense of place. Yeah.

TJ: Yeah. Oh, Yeah,

joe: like, it’s

a place. I mean- Yeah …

yeah.

Yeah. No, Yeah,

Anne: Yeah, they’re like

monuments

a way.

Mm-hmm.

And

yeah, you can tell a lot about what’s happened in

an area

too, like from opening up a tree and investigating the inside-

the

core too. So

they hold [00:23:00] onto all of that.

Georgia: that.

It’s,

s- Yeah, seeing the rings and-

the Oh,

joe: yeah.

the age, right,

Nick: forgot about that. That’s why I was like-

“Wait, what are you doing? opening up trees?” “Don’t do

that. We’re saving these

TJ: torturing trees.” We just went over this.

Can’t wait to crack this baby open. Wonder

Nick: your trees. “

We just went

over

this.”

joe: it’s

like-

Nick: a

tree, Nick.

Georgia: that…

Yeah.

joe: Yeah.

Nick: I wonder

how many-

00 was in can make from this tree.

TJ: Oh,

Mary: make from this. Oh, no.

joe: Yeah,

you’re walking through, “Hey, buddy,

you behave,

okay?”

Nick: Joe,

stop Sherman was here. Sherman- is here. Sherman.

Mary: One

of…

And like for Briar East Woods, the justification for cutting down Briar East Woods keeps changing too.

joe: Yeah.

TJ: By the

Mary: way …Right.

TJ: It j- when- whenever you get ’em.

Mary: so what was… So

I became aware of this issue very late in the game, just only in like the,

the last year and a half or so. But what was the ha- like the justification for cutting down Briar East Woods originally

When Ken when Ken got involved with this? Or…[00:24:00]

Anne: this? Yeah.

So,

Hammond is a city, and especially

the hessville neighborhood, there’s a lot of train crossings. And so there was a pedestrian, or not a pedestrian, sorry. There was a fatality that occurred at the Grand avenue crossing, which is a bit east of Briar east Woods. And additionally there was, a public safety crisis where, and proPublica reported on this in 2023, where there’s five schools on Grand Avenue, and children walking to school would get caught by the train, and so they would start climbing or

TJ: through- A, a parked,

train? parked train.

Anne: Parked

Nick: Oh.

TJ: not

moving train. When

Mary: they were there-

they were, like

S- stayed still, like standing,

Stopped trains for, were, stopped so long.

TJ: For Hours or

sometimes days. Yeah. Oh. Yeah.

Anne: up to

like three

days I think- was the longest one. So the idea behind the bridge that is gonna cut through Briar East Woods is to alleviate that issue of the stalled [00:25:00] trains, getting around those trains particularly for school children.

Mary: However

Anne: However…

Nick: However…

TJ: We

can dispute

that

point- …

Well ……very

well.

Mary: Yeah. Let’s ta- yeah.

let’s

talk about, yeah.

TJ: Well,

I mean- Yeah … so

the,

th- on Grand Avenue where the

train

was parked and all the kids are crossing and all the schools are, that’s wonderful. We need a bridge there perhaps. The bridge is a mile away.

Mary: The bridge-

Like, The bridge- in Briar East Woods,

right.

Yeah.

Yeah, Briar

TJ: East Woods. Yeah. Right. Briar East Woods-

The trail it would take the kids on-

…is a two-mile

detour.

Nick: what- Whoa. So

it’s always easier-

joe: it’s always

Georgia: they were trying to- make this a solution for that-

Yes …when-

Nick: it gonna be any solution at all though?

Like there-

Anne: no- No.

TJ: No. no.

Nick: all. So,

like-

Georgia: So there’s obviously- some- What? … other reasoning behind- Yes.

Yeah.

joe: happening.

TJ: And so- they… And so then the mayor would just keep on, and the city,

would just keep on spitting out different- “Oh, well the woods are [00:26:00] dirty.

The woods have trash

in them.

Anne: Yeah. The emergency vehicles

can’t get around

Mary: of the children. The children need to cross.

Georgia: That makes

TJ: need to cross.

That

makes

Georgia: Won’t

Mary: anyone please think of the children?

TJ: that’s, like- yeah … there are actual problems that- Mm-hmm … could be addressed, and they got grant money to address it

Anne: Yes.

Georgia: And

TJ: they’re using it on, like a housing development project. just, All right, and we have to throw a bridge in

there.”

Anne: Yeah.

Mary: But like,

it’s

like,

Georgia: a bridge that won’t help. the

TJ: a bridge that will not help anyone. It- It’s

Mary: like over a mile away from where,

like the kids would need it to cross, right? So-

TJ: A

Anne: west of Grand Avenue, the train crossing at Grand

Avenue, which is where all of these issues are happening.

Georgia: then didn’t they say something like,

“Well, the kids that walk to school will still have

to…” have this issue.” Yeah. Will still have to, like- It’s like- Yeah. right …wait a second.

TJ: then

joe: not

gonna walk a

mile out their way then to loop…

Yeah.

TJ: I’ll give you

another funny one.

So the second most [00:27:00] popular one that they use is, well, emergency vehicles need to be able to cross parked trains.” And so

What

happens then? So

we’re

like, “Okay, yeah, sure.” But here’s the thing.

order to build this bridge, they’re coming off of the main thoroughfare

that emergency vehicles use to go north-south through Hessville. And so they’re going to close that road and instead take them on a winding journey through Briar East

Anne: East

Through the new

subdivision. Oh

Mary: my God, that’s, That’s

TJ: Are you kidding? Oh my God. That’s, stupid. and

so,

and introduce two new

intersections.

Nick: Yeah. So wouldn’t it make more sense just to have the bridge go over the railroad tracks?

TJ: Yes.

that. That This is such a simple solution. How am

Nick: I the one able to be able figured it out.

Anne: I-

Georgia: …the one that doesn’t seem able to think this out?

Mary: I feel

like you’re leading it…

Like,

Nick: one,

Mary: one solution is quick and relatively less expensive.

Anne: Yeah,

significantly.

less

Georgia: it lead to [00:28:00] a

Mary: less. But it doesn’t lead to- Well, I

Georgia: yeah, a …fancy housing

development?

Right.

Mary: like the Compare…

A- And like the comparison of the numbers. Yeah.

Anne: Yeah. It’s hard to

say what the numbers would be now because the figures are so

old. Oh,

Mary: year- It’s been years now.

Yeah.

Anne: I mean, the last figure for Governors Parkway, I think they recently changed

It to 13 million. It was up

to 16 million at one point.

Mary: Oh. okay.

Anne: So now it’s like 13 million.

TJ: Well,

they’re funding it with different sources, too.

Yeah. You know, it’s

…federal

funds and

state

Anne: state, and then

the s- city

pays 20%.

Yes.

Oh, right.

Of the whole cost. So, so taxpayers. Yeah. of Hammond.

TJ: I think they were gonna try and use COVID relief funds for that-

Yeah.

last

time I checked.

Georgia: time

joe: Yeah, right. Is

that account still active?

Can we check it out?

Well, this

reminds me, you guys are talking some of the political stuff. In Mumbai, India, they had did something like that.

The Aarey, the green lung they wanted to build a metro rail

depot.

So and research, like this was in 2019. They felled [00:29:00] about 2,600 trees And one of the, the government’s, their line was an area cannot be a forest just because it has greenery. And so it was this whole

rhetorical-

Nick: Water is not water even though it’s wet …

joe: It’s like, “Oh a

forest just

because it’s green,”

like, “’cause it’s got green space. So y- like you were saying, TJ, you guys were…

It’s, you get these

lines and It’s like what does

that-

Georgia: like what It’s double-speak.

joe: what does that exactly? Like,

you Are we not supposed to think about that?

Nick: It’s so stupid-

that it makes you go, Yeah. it has to be true.

Right? No

one’s this

Anne: right … say

that? But

joe: But

yeah, no, it’s one of these,

Mary: Oh, right. But yeah, no, it’s kind of

joe: interesting things where pol- they give… They say things and it’s

like,

“Oh, yeah, green. What?”

Anne: Well, it’s so

I mean, people do say that all the time.

Yeah, it’s kind of- And it’s not-

I mean, the city doesn’t look at it as a forest. They look at

as-

a place where people dump trash, which isn’t even true, but

Nick: and

TJ: place where

kids go to smoke

weed. Yeah. Which is true.

Anne: is true.

But but

they’re gonna do it somewhere.

Nick: place.

Anne: That’s why- Please

Nick: in the good …environment of [00:30:00] nature …

joe: out spaces in there.

Random forest somewhere, not what an urban forest is

TJ: for? Yeah.

Anne: out

spaces.

TJ: have a little

sign

joe: like, you know, “These are our babies. These are our babies.” The, the-

Nick: Oh,

no.

Joe, no. Legit,

TJ: No.

Nick: And

joe: No.

Legit, That gives them, you

know-

Protection

Georgia: Yeah.

Nick: and then clean it up afterwards … clean it up afterwards.

joe: well

Anne: know,

Nick: Come on,

Anne: Come on, kids.

joe: well,

They’re planned, maybe not to,

you know,

like-

your

Anne: Oh.

Nick: your

TJ: hey.

Mary: thing or whatever.

joe: Oh,

Why, Why’s

it gotta be,

Georgia: Be-

Anne: why’s it gotta be me? Look, anything could ha- anything could

happen.

joe: Well,

I think-

Um, yes.

Georgia: I was gonna s-

TJ: Your mother, and

I met, in

Briar East Woods.

joe: Yeah, right. Yeah. Can you

tell me the

story again? It is- you tell me the

Mary: It is weird the way,

like, the

city council while They’ll often cite… the, they’ll often say,

Like, the woods are dirty. Yeah. Like,

well, then we could clean them,

You know? I mean,

if they’re…

If,

like, tra- well,

Georgia: trash blows in So

Mary: trash blows

Georgia: are the sidewalks in

Mary: Yeah. like, if trash blows

into your yard,

you don’t burn down your house, you just pick up [00:31:00] the trash. Right? You know? Yeah.

Nick: I constantly do this, mary. I have a

Mary: constantly burning down your house?

Anne: a

Nick: Constantly burning down your house? I have

Mary: You have to move all the time.

Georgia: entire

house. You have

joe: It’s Like,

Nick: My fridge goes out- oof. That house is gone.

But it

Mary: it does feel very much like double speak, like, like the,

like a woods- Yeah …could be dirty. Yeah, It’s such a strange… Yeah. Anyway. Yeah.

joe: I mean,

it’s also a counterargument, people try to make ’cause you go,

you have the woods,” and I’ve brought up all these, these positives. But then people go if

you got woods, then you could have people, like,

sneaking in there, hiding, crime rates.”

The sight lines are wrong, and people are gonna get…

So you

have

Georgia: Surveillance is hard.

joe: try… Right, exactly. Like,

it’s, it’s- Ugh …

Need

more cameras

in the woods. But yeah, no, I

think you have these kind of counterarguments, especially in urban environments where crime crime gets

sensationalized in, in a lot of places

And there’s an overreaction. And if you have wooded areas, sometimes that’s the first place to get attacked. It’s like, “Oh,

you know, aha,

I know what’s gonna stop the crime.”

it’s like, I

Nick: Is it ’cause they’re [00:32:00] doing crimes out there?

joe: That’s right.

Nick: Can I go out there and find them and- be like, hey, I see you doing crimes”?

joe: It’s

like we know where you’re at, but we’re not… We’re just gonna cut it down.

Anne: That’s the thing, though, is There’s never been a crime reported in

Briar woods. Right, That’s the thing. Yes. It’s Like-

Yes okay,

Like,

…ooh,

spooky scary

woods, like

horror movies. yeah. But crimes really- …don’t

…tend to happen- in natural

areas. You

can-

look-

Yeah … I don’t know the statistics- on it, but-

joe: Yeah.

Nick: Yeah. You

can intuit.

Anne: You can intuit.

joe: right.

Anne: you

Mary: yeah. But,

mean, h- yeah, really. Has there,

You know,

you look back,

you know.

yeah, that’s not something…

Anyway,

Yeah.

joe: And you I, just to pull on a thread, ’cause I was gonna get there in a little bit, but you mentioned horror. And in fiction you have woods portrayed a couple wa- ways, right? You have the trees or you have the defenders of the woods,

And that can be a, a positive entity. But you also have, on the horror side you have entities in the woods which are [00:33:00] protective of their space and people intruding in that space. And

I think that’s, we talked here about some of the horror episodes, that horror is a good way to, think about trauma and explore trauma, explore loss-

Mm-hmm

and things like that. And I wonder if that’s,

you know…

Do, do you, you watch some of these and go, oh, yeah

that’s what it would feel like if you lost, you know, this, this wooded space,

Anne: Yeah.

I think

It’s devastating.

It’s very scary to imagine,

like, single family housing going

up =over- …Such an ancient and beautiful

place.

And

Yeah, I mean it is like,

And not to be dramatic, but it’s

really destructive

to tear down all those trees. I mean, it’s beautiful- …natural

area.

They’re,

massacring-

the woods. like Yes.

TJ: Yes. No, yeah. yeah.

Mary: And then there’s consequences for that too, because,

we’re recording this in late July, and just a, a, couple weeks ago we had some really torrential rains- that came through [00:34:00] this area,

About three weeks ago. And I kept thinking, you know, i, as this was, you know- thinking, how much worse it would be if we didn’t have Briar East Woods

to soak up the water.

Mm-hmm.

And it … Yeah. Go ahead.

TJ: I’ve

always had this,

Dream of a

horror movie-

that I

wanted made about Northwest

Indiana

because northwest Indiana used to all be, like, the Everglades of the north. Yeah.

The Grand ca- Key Marsh.

And you just

keep on draining it and that’s something about Briar East Woods is that it is a sponge- For all the water. And So I have … my dream horror movie is that we pave over the last green space in Northwest Indiana and then the swamp just kinda rises out

of the sewers Yeah,

Nice.

joe: Yeah.

Mary: you go. Yes.

TJ: the

entities of

the forest come back-

to- to

reclaim

all of Northwest Indiana. Oh,

Anne: like

joe: There it is. Like, yeah.

Nick: a

man thing.

Like a-

TJ: yeah, I would …I

wanna

watch it. I don’t

know.

joe: John- Carpenter’s

The Fog where

you had that, where the fog that’s ’83-ish

or somewhere in that ballpark.

Yeah. And you have [00:35:00] the fog rolls in, and it’s

the, these … It was about pirates reclaiming their gold, but it was-

it was a town, like,

TJ: Wait.

Georgia: like, you

joe: was Like,

you

Mary: Maybe there’s some pirate treasure out there, yeah.

who

joe: was a natural phenomenon. This fog would- Yeah … kind of roll in, and then they would

Come out the fog and- Yeah

you know,

gotcha.

Um, yeah.

Mary: Uh, yeah Mary was saying though, that is

TJ: kind of- already

happening in Hammond though. Right.

Because when it rains- they’re… Hammond is so overdeveloped. And it is low. It,

you know, it’s the dunes are right there.

joe: Yeah …

TJ: people’s basements flood, and it’s sewage. The streets flood.

Anne: The streets flood. The streets flood, …

The entire street.

Nick: flood, …

TJ: You can take-

…a boat down the street- sometimes. But it is literally

Nick: people

TJ: have raw sewage coming up several feet- in their basements. And this is,

like, the consequence- of that, of overdevelopment. …

Yeah.

joe: Yeah.

And we can … I w- I was gonna say, you had the Hurricane Harvey in 2017 in Houston, and because [00:36:00] of just decades of paving over wooded areas and, this, these areas that can act as a sponge and absorb, naturally absorb water, right? Hurricanes have been happening on Earth.

Mm-hmm.

And, you

Georgia: for no cost and that hurricane was

Nick: yeah,

joe: For

now … it, right and it’s yeah, for n- for

free.

And so a lot of the, a lot of people said that the flooding was worse because you didn’t really have these kind of buffers now- Yeah to these natural buffers for these

storm surges and the amount of water there. So that ju- that then just comes into people’s houses. You are now the sponge. So get your sump pump and,

your insurance claims ready because that’s what’s gonna happen. If you lose these natural kind of protectors,

Nick: that

joe: That buffer you against, the environment

And, you know, the other weather events that happen.

yeah,

there’s

Real examples of that

TJ: And,

people suffer.

joe: Yep, That’s

TJ: and they, At, the end of the day-

That’s right … it’s people suffer. Yeah. And

the mayor’s solution to that was

well, buy a backflow valve.

Right.

Anne: Yeah, they have no recourse. [00:37:00] Yeah.

Georgia: Or

joe: insurance.

Like,

so you- you’re in areas which are al- already

Economically depressed sometimes, ’cause these are where some of these places go. So you’re taking the last little forest away. So we talk about all the health benefits,

Nick: Do you think that might be part of the plan though?

Georgia: though?

Mary: though? Like,

Nick: it is a low income area, and being, taking out this forest-

having, it take away this, sponge, Mm-hmm …it can end up driving out the

low income. And then- they can go ahead and build Mary’s Bears Stadium.

joe: Yeah.

That’s right.

Nick: Yeah. I,

Mary: stadium.

Nick: Or…

joe: It’s gonna be

named after you, right? …The, the Mary, uh, Stadium. I hope

Mary: oh

Nick: investor, right? Like…

If it

Mary: it

ends up going into Hammond I’m gonna become a Packers fan for life.

joe: Oh, boy.

Anne: an investor,

joe: dun, dun. I

Mary: right? But so yeah,

well, one

of the things that

I would love to do at the, the Mayor’s Night Out in October, which,

i- in October 28th to be [00:38:00] specific. Check gohammond.com.

For your,

But they do these Mayor’s Night Outs. Oh, gosh. the, the,

last one that, w- that happened in the sixth district last year, i- in the sixth district is councilman Scott Rakos’s district, you know, where he represents this area, which includes briar east Woods. And

we, Gosh, I, yeah, all of us, th- there’s, there are lots of people there that wa- wanted to talk to, about Briar East Woods, and the mayor tried to curate the whole event as this is like a done deal and nobody cares about this anymore, when most people wanted to talk about it.

Nick: it.

Mm-hmm.

Mary: So I think for this year, I think it would be nice if if everyone brought a sponge.

Anne: Mm-hmm.

yeah,

Mary: And gave it to Scott Rakos, just, “Here, you might need this

If you foolishly get your way,” you know?

and, you know, maybe that, w- that, maybe that will be like, “Hi, here you [00:39:00] go.”

Anne: Yeah.

TJ: We can give him a sponge full of raw sewage.

joe: Yeah,

That’s right. Oh. Have a little cup, do that. Here you go. you go. You’re gonna have it in a baggie,

Georgia: that’s what’s

Nick: not

just loose in your pocket,

like…

joe: Is

Nick: Is that the drink

joe: mixing up, …

raw sewage at

the bar? No. No, that’s

not,

Mary: gonna

need

some spon- you’re gonna need some sponges if you do what you do- if you do what you do.

So,

Nick: yeah. Maybe

Georgia: a copy

of The Lorax.

joe: A

copy of The Lorax. Yeah, you could do that. Or, I mean-

Yeah.

TJ: I,

think

Nick: love Danny DeVito … it should have been

TJ: to him-

at one of the- city council

Nick: council

meetings at one point.

Anne: Yes.

Georgia: No,

Mary: but they just kinda, they just

check out during public expression. They Make it by design that they don’t interact un- well, unless they want to. But, you know, they don’t answer any questions. It’s just, you just

wail into the heavens kinda thing. Right.

You know?

But- they don’t really have to-

They just,

usually they just look down Yeah, they just ignore you.

Anne: on their phone. Well, I mean- Yeah.

Mary: Yeah. That’s

Georgia: would say it sounds very hopeful though, ’cause it sounds like- [00:40:00] despite how much they are pushing this, they’ve really gotten slowed down at least.

Anne: They

have gotten slowed down. Their project’s been on pause for over a year now.

TJ: Two years, right?

joe: Three years.

Anne: guess technically three?

But like nothing

has happened

on it since

June of last year.

Georgia: And are they hoping that

people

forget and then, “Oh, we’re gonna…”

I don’t know. It’s

Anne: hard to

say.

I mean,

they haven’t

said a word about

in over

a year.

TJ: I’ll tell you what,

The-

I think the

Bears stadium will play a big role in that, to be quite honest

with you.

Nick: with you. I agree.

joe: Right,

right.

Because the mayor is, the

TJ: mayor is v-

w- it was his thing, Briar East Woods and developing

Governor’s Parkway.

And

Anne: he’s very spiteful.

Yeah. It’s a e-

ego thing.

for very

TJ: emotional.

Mm-hmm

Mary: thing for Briar East Woods- Mm-hmm

Nick: Mm-hmm

TJ: he’s-

very angry ……And unstable.

Nick: Yeah.

Mary: Yeah,

he’s

you see he’s definitely

a temper.

TJ: Yeah, ‘

but-

joe: gonna subscribe from this podcast.

Now, I don’t know. Uh, no perspective. Yeah. And

Georgia: And I

TJ: [00:41:00] think,

you know,

My,

my, reason for saying

that is that

he… I think

it’s a lot of emotional labor for him to

dedicate

I’m being serious.

to like, fighting his

residents tooth

and nail-

…to-

right like hurt them.

joe: Right,

TJ: And And so,

joe: Right …

TJ: When he’s got the Bears stadium going on, I think it would w- just be too much for him.

Anne: It would be… Yeah, and it would be a big enough win for him.

Yeah.

Right

to be

joe: say, “We got it.” Yeah.

And people

will be kinda happy. I was gonna say there

Go ahead

TJ: ahead If he,

Mary: So if he the stadium, you think

Georgia: That will be-

joe: Feather in the cap, like- I

Anne: I

think it would be a good thing for Briarwoods, But

then it w- they would probably

develop Wolf Lake,

which is a whole other- issue.

joe: Yeah.

Then you, I mean, you just move it.

I think

TJ: it’s,

You just move it. Just move it, you know. Say Wolf

joe: It’s just moving,

Mary: Save Wolf Lake.

Georgia: You You gotta,

joe: you know, be, you know- Yeah … The duster’s

gotta dust

somewhere else now. Yeah.

Let’s move it on. We’re, packing

TJ: It’s been brought up.

eh?

Anne: Rebecca It, it’s been brought up. But I

joe: but I was

gonna say,

there’s some…

I mean,

I looked it up

And I…

you know, you can get [00:42:00] pessimistic about it, but also maybe examples where people have done things. So one was in Seoul, and they created an overpass similar to this project, a, a six-lane elevated highway,

and

they buried a stream and with concrete

And it was, like,

And then,

some change of,

you know, kind of a

feeling about that, this green corridor was destroyed. They actually restored the stream-

Oh, wow.

And had this come in, and they had

a a

almost a 600% jump in a local bi- di- biodiversity within a few years, local cooling by several degrees, better air quality.

All these things that y’all are talking about with the Briar East and keeping it there in this urban setting, this is one where they saw property values went up, so kind of the, “Oh, property values go up if we do

This, this project.” No,

they’ll go up if you improve this green space, if you put some effort into it, if you actually…

This is here for free. You’re not… Like you said, no- [00:43:00] no one’s doing anything. The trails, every- it’s not being managed.

This is just nature here. It’s just doing its thing, and people love it. People are getting something out of it, and so you have that here,

where

Nick: said that was in Seoul?

joe: In Seoul? In Seoul,

Nick: yep.

yep.

Are there any examples of those in,

like,

the States?

joe: You mean the United States of

America or like other states?

Nick: or like other

Georgia: States.

I mean- you mean

reversing

something like this? I can see… that.

joe: mean,

I’ve seen other

examples. So in,

Nick: in like New York-

will happen elsewhere

Georgia: hopefully it’s not a reverse

joe: great … I know, I’m just saying.

I’m just saying that you have this in other places- Yeah … that they have made these relationships

urban development.

You know,

their…

A lot of these places and countries

Are much smaller than, you know, america. So

I think we have this thing.

We’re in this expansionist mindset mo- going out west and exploring and taking over and,

you know,

make-

Nick: yeah, we still have That manifest destiny- Right.

joe: And I

think that’s still

part of this whole thing, and when people wanna do something great

And leave their legacy, [00:44:00] I think these are the projects they think of. They don’t think of, “Let me preserve… Let me put my name on this f- this forest

and preserve that.” It goes, “Let me build this concrete structure that will be

my thing that people will come and go, ‘Ah,

that’s what I remember.

I remember the great thing that this politician or this person did in their lifetime.'” And

I think we s- that, that mindset still exists. Instead of going,

“Well,

let

me protect this green space.”

And

there are people that, that do that, but I’m just saying that more, we need more people, especially people with means, people with power, political-

Georgia: But we can definitely

look at examples of communities stopping similar

projects. and- no,

joe: at examples of communities stopping similar- Yeah, no.

Right. That’s right. That’s

Nick: So question:

Would it be on the table

for Hammond to sell the land?

TJ: I think that’s

kind of

a big fear of mine, to be honest. with you.

Nick: No.

Hold on.

TJ: Okay.

Nick: What

if…

like, c- can

organization like- Oh

yours- go ahead and buy…

Like,

I know It’s A a dollar amount,

[00:45:00] Yes. But w- what do you think they would give you am- an amount for it?

Anne: No.

No.

I think

that if we were dealing with a reasonable- mayor-

and a city administration that wasn’t totally corrupt,

yes. Like,

I know that,

That’s true

like L- Lakeside

Woods,

Save Lakeside Woods,

was a campaign that I think

was in New Buffalo or Three Oaks, Michigan.

They were

able to do that. They were able to fundraise and buy the land from-

whomever it was owned by. I’m not sure.

But again, like we said, like the

mayor,

it’s as

much about the development for him as it is

about his ego.

TJ: Yeah. Yeah. That’s what-

Anne: And

so I think there’s no price he could

possibly put on that.

Unless he gets the Bears stadium, and then

maybe he’d forget about

it,

but-

I don’t know

Nick: I don’t know. Do you think there would be any- It’s kinda

like maybe

Mary: a pacifier,

you know? Or

Put

Nick: But that’s what I’m saying. Like-

Mary: iPad in front of a toddler.

But,

you know,

I was, and

When Joe was talking

he was talking about,

you know,

like I was thinking about [00:46:00] imagine like

how

different Manhattan would be without Central Park.

Right.

Yeah. Yeah.

If they had paved over every last inch of that because

Nick: it,

Mary: the woods don’t- Yeah …make

any money.

Or, Chicago,

But It’s-

Yeah

you know, but,

you know,

a- as you said in your opening,

In,

you know, when you first talk- or read

that out,

you know,

we there is a value in, in leaving it alone.

There, it’s valuable in its

own

right.

joe: Or reclaiming or appreciating it. That was the Burnham Plan.

So Daniel Burnham he designed the World’s Fair.

And his plan for Chicago was to develop the green space. So we think back when the World’s Fair, and, your kinda late 1800s, you had Gary and Chicago were equally sized cities. You can make some argument that the trains all went through Chicago and weren’t gonna get…

But still, they were both industrialized and powerhouse cities. And really it was this, this plan to develop the lakefront and to invest

In… And a lot of industrialists were like, “What are you talking about?

This wa- [00:47:00] This makes us… Lake Michigan, this beach makes us no money. But if we put this mill here, we put this here, then we will.”

And he goes, “Whoa, you know what? Someday people are gonna wanna come here. They’re gonna spend money to vacation and do,”

Kinda take advantage of that.

And Chicago, that was their kind of pivot. If you look at that, the World’s Fair was that pivot that they began to develop and really

Put effort into maintaining green spaces and interconnected parks along the lake.

And,

you know,

and people still defend that when, I think, was it Lucas wanted to put a museum in?

He, they…

people

rallied against that. Obama pres- They, people rallied and said, “Whoa, you can’t put this here.

This is our green space.” And it…

And

as Georgia was mentioning earlier, they really…

There’s a lot of community came in because

They saw the value in that.

And it’s the same thing happened in Hammond. People are seeing the value. The residents are saying, “Hey, this is important to us. Why can’t we develop this and make this destination,” right? That could

be the

Georgia: even develop it, but just protect it. right?

joe: protect it …and

Make it that destination.

Make it something there. Close by is Gibson Woods, right? That’s just not too [00:48:00] far. I mean,

You have these great green space corridors. Wolf Lake in Hammond also,

like, great… And they have made some investments there. But you could.

That’s

the thing that’s missing, this vision. It’s always concrete and steel-

Mm-hmm

…and

Not

kind of

green and,

Mary: but, it, yeah, but it’s,

Yeah, the value comes

In,

in, the green spa- …in the

green space

Yeah,

Nick: I,

TJ: I think isn’t, the Indiana

Dunes, like the

most

visited

national park in- Wow … the Eastern America

whatever?

Mary: kidding. Really?

Wow, that’s awesome.

Nick: don’t know. That’s the only one I go to. though.

joe: I know, Yeah.

right. See, right.

Case in point. Yeah. …Case in

point.

TJ: in point.

Case in point.

Mary: Case in

point.

joe: Let’s name

Nick: I don’t know where anyone else

joe: that he… Yeah,

Georgia: a trendsetter,

TJ: national parks in the- I don’t know where, I don’t go to

parks.

You’re a trendsetter, I

Nick: Listen.

TJ: I, remember

seeing

someone at the Dunes and-

like the beach kind of dunes.

And

it was in

the parking lot. They were like, “Yeah,

we’re like lost. We’re like looking. We wanna go see some dunes.”

And I was like, “Oh, well, the beach is that way.”

And they’re like, “No, I’m just interested in

the dunes.”

And

I was like,

…”Well, “Let

tell you about a little place called

Briar [00:49:00] East Woods.”

Nick: oh, Jesus. Oh,

you gonna be a little weird. Oh, you wanna see some dunes?

joe: But yeah, I was … It was

I, it’s in thinking about all this, and I, we talk about industrialists and stuff, and

like to draw people in. But,

you know, on

a podcast, we don’t give DC

a lot of love, and so

I wanna touch upon a DC character

Nick: Oh,

I thought we

were talking about the state.

DC.

and I’m

TJ: Oh,

Nick: no No.

all right, you’re really

gonna

make

a weird swing here, buddy.

Mary: I

TJ: thought you were talking about the a little about- Poison- Yeah.

joe: Yeah. I wanna

talk a little Poison

Georgia: that we don’t.

Anne: me

joe: Poison

Ivy, ’cause I was

thinking …about

defenders who become the villain, right? That you cross a line and you have this.

And so in fictions we talked about the woods kinda defending themselves, trees, and there’s plenty of movies, and,

that happens. Signals go out and people are jumping off of buildings. She’s,

Mary: Don’t give- Mayor McDermott- …any ideas.

He’s gonna

think

TJ: He’s gonna think that

joe: But I was

saying

Mary: That’s what I’m saying … eco-terrorist or

something like that

joe: Poison

Ivy, [00:50:00] yeah, I mean,

that was the … She was this, she was a botanist, scientist, and then became this defender, had an accident, gained superpowers. She could communicate with the plants and control them, and toxins and all this. But then she was just like, she was ruthless about it. It was just like, “Oh, you were…”

Yeah,

Nick: It’s

joe: like,

Yeah,

where’s that Poison Ivy at?”

What? What? I mean- Yeah,

no.

You had that. It’s it’s very

interesting that you have this, you know,

This pull on it. Like, where is that line?

Right? That’s, it’s

A interesting thing. And it’s in- labeled

as a villain,

whereas

you look at it

now, like,

you

Nick: the s- the way

That you’re reading it, like-

Right, right … the

way it’s being written is how you’re

supposed to

be taking it. That’s ‘

cause Batman’s

joe: supposed to be taking it. That’s ’cause Batman’s supposed to be the hero.

Nick: Batman’s a

rich billionaire.

That’s a- He’s an like- Yeah, right,

Anne: He’s a dungeon. Pro industrial propaganda.

He’s,

Nick: the, crimi- ……the-

mentally

ill.

Mary: Aside from

turning into

Poison Ivy, but like,

like,

it’s

like if

somebody was listening

to the podcast

and think

And they’re learning about

Briar East Woods and it’s in

danger, what

[00:51:00] Is there something that

They

could do?

way that they can get involved?

Anne: Yes.

TJ: I like

the Poison Ivy route.

Nick: Thank you. like, Yeah.

Georgia: I wanna-

Nick: Let’s go back to that more point on that-

joe: Yeah …is that,

There’s … I didn’t know this guy, R’as ghul. R’as

Nick: Ghul. Ra’s al Ghul? Yeah, Yeah, right.

joe: He’s also a Batman villain. Yes.

But

he also was, like,

trying to save. His whole thing was, like,

Nick: His daughter gives- Right.

yeah

Dan- Bruce’s

son.

joe: I

know.

I didn’t- I didn’t realize

all the

was like, “Oh.”

But it’s once again

Batman versus,

like, an industrialist

versus kind of a naturalist.

…like- kind of That is all Batman is. And

I’ve said it before, I’m not a huge Batman fan for a number of reasons, but this

is … After

researching a little bit of this, I’m like, “You know what?

Industrialists suck.”

Nick: Let’s

do do

joe: a- So

Nick: I can’t wait for our episode on

Batman. I’m gonna tear into him

hard.

Yeah. All

the DC. fans are gonna be

upset with

Georgia: now Back to the-

reality.

joe: back to…

yeah.

not

do Poison Ivy style as, Unless

Nick: you get the powers.

Mary: Yeah. we have to [00:52:00] have the powers,

first.

joe: then yes, use them for good.

Yeah. Know- go out against some industrialists.

Well- But

TJ: I’m sorry, I,

Georgia: to being Poison Ivy. What Are some- things that we could- Are

joe: you a fan of Poi- Are

you-

TJ: I

guess I’ve

never seen it, so I was… I

heard what you were describing and I was like, “Oh, I like

her

a lot.”

I guess I

didn’t- … put it

together she’s… oh, she’s actually a villain. Okay.

Anne: she?

joe: is she,

right? You’re

like- I’m saying, yeah but

TJ: know. That’s what I’m

saying, I don’t

joe: maybe

an anti-hero.

Let’s give her, you know, like a Wolverine

or something.

Nick: hero,

TJ: yeah.

joe: Wolverine, oh, yeah,

yeah, It’s like, yeah, that’s a… You did what? Who did that? Oh, you know what? I’ma look the other

Anne: you know what? Let’s go help the other way.” I think it’s

interesting, though, like

all

these media comparisons

you’re drawing, like they really do a good job of

job of

villainizing and demonizing the natural world, and I don’t think it’s a coincidence at

all.

joe: and demonizing the natural world. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. They do. They do. And it’s a nonsense moral. Mm-hmm.

Mary: Yes. I don’t think it’s a coincidence at all. Mm-hmm.

Anne: And that’s why,

you know,

the

city

of Hammond, for example, is

so good at making the

case for that, ’cause people are

alienated

Georgia: those dirty woods.

That’s

joe: right, yeah. And it’s

that whole thing.

I mean, that’s the point. Even the people trying to save the woods, they become, in media as we [00:53:00] think about it where- where’s the posi- I think the Swamp Thing is

A positive

Man Thing.

So …there’s a

few who are in there who like, a little more positive.

They’re

just, they’re true protectors. But you’re right. Usually the woods get framed in that horror kind of idea. Yeah. We talk about the positive benefits, but then you have,

right, Right.

that you go in, you’re gonna

Something bad’s gonna happen.

You’re gonna

come out with a kid,

right?

I mean,

TJ: I mean,

Nick: I mean-

Georgia: So-

TJ: come out with the

miracle of

joe: Yeah, That might be good for some people. …but, no,

it……

You’re right.

I think that’s something and that’s,

you know, kind of

br-

Illuminate

that here so as people read

And watch fiction they can think about that as they’re consuming it,

Like,

what, what are they being taught or shown?

Because these are the examples that we’re gonna go and see.

Yeah. So

how do we counter

That,

you know, in,

these things? And who are these positive examples, right? You… And you were just talking about people can become one of the positive kind of champions of the woods.

TJ: Well,

yeah, not

just when you’re reading fiction too.

When you’re reading the

joe: the

news-

You

TJ: Or

reading-

your

joe: not fiction? No.

Nick: It’s [00:54:00]

joe: I’m a little

confused these

TJ: When you’re reading, when

you’re hearing

what your mayor has

to say about a local development

project listen carefully.

Mary: Y-

You know, what? it’s- …When I talk to people ……about stuff like this it seems like

I’m making

it up.

It’s such- He’s such a,

and it’s such,

a cartoonishly

a cartoonishly-

Just evil thing to do to propose a project that costs way more money than it would cost to solve the problem that you say that you wanna solve.

Mm-hmm. If you wanna make sure that kids get to go to school safely, then just why don’t you just build the bridge? Yeah. Or if, like if you need emergency vehicle access, why cut it off?

Anne: Exactly.

Yeah.

you

TJ: want

a housing development, say it with your chest,

man. Come on. Yeah.

Mary: Yeah, right.

TJ: Be a man.

Mary: Say yeah. really.

Dig deep.

joe: don’t use the kid- Yeah. Hide behind the kids.

plenty-

Mary: I don’t know, how many kids.

We got plenty

…of vacant houses in- Hammond. Why don’t they just build the townhouses? If the point is to build townhouse but then the,

but then you don’t get to look at the pretty trees outside the window. [00:55:00] right?

Yeah. I

mean-

a, save

couple of those, for the…

joe: But But in a new

development,

you can do that, right? I think

The other thing, and

I and it’s mentioned several times, I think everyone at that you have this four, 5,000 old forest that took time to develop.

Mm-hmm. You

just can’t

pave over that and put some trees in, some saplings.

TJ: Yeah. not gonna

joe: have the same benefits. So I think what you wanna do is go ahead… You’re right. Or why don’t you revitalize other areas? But that means displacing people.

That’s a harder political sell. Cutting through a forest with no voice, that’s much easier, right? That’s the

thing.

Mm-hmm.

Really, it’s about voice.

The trees don’t put up resistance or have a voice, so if you wanna bulldoze through, unless

citizens come up and say, “Hey, this is bad,” no one’s gonna stop that because that’s gonna go. But if you go into one of these areas, even if it’s a economically depressed area and you start bulldozing it, you’ll have people, gentrification.

You’ll have a lot of people rally around that to put up all sorts of roadblocks. So politically, [00:56:00] it is, it’s somewhat easier in your head. The calculation you’re making is this is the easier,

Calculus to do it here and take out this forest. It’s 32 acres. Eh, no one… It’s just trees. Let’s take it out.

And forgetting its history, forgetting about the effects on climate the, the sponge kind of effect

On rainwater. So I think you…

That’s what’s happening in this

When you come into these areas that people aren’t thinking.

It’s

kind of,

yeah, you’re right, that would make more sense.

There’s a lot of places, and we can look in a lot of towns and cities and go, “You know what? This area is ripe for some renewal.”

That’s a lot of political capital. It’s weird.

You gotta go in.

There’s historical things. There’s red line.

There’s

all sorts of issues that come in.

Whereas if it’s just some wooded area, you know what? Hey, we can do it right here and do that and-

TJ: Well-

joe: and take it out,

TJ: so

last month Hammond auctioned off, I think it was veterans Park- for housing.

And so it was a park in a neighborhood,

and

then it’s like, all right, that’s gonna

be housing.

Last year, or two years ago, it was clark

Baseball fields.

That’s [00:57:00] housing.

Yeah. And they’re not,

Nick: Are people

moving into these spots as quickly as they’re trying to build

them? Like-

Yeah, and they’re

We’re about to hit- They’re spending- …

some major economic crisis

They’re

TJ: spending $500,000-

on these houses

too.

Wow, Wow. It’s, they’re not- solving the housing crisis.

I know. They’re… They’re solving

some-

Mary: some-

Nick: Yeah

Georgia: make some money in my pocket. kind of thing. Yeah.

Yeah.

Anne: That’s

the thing too,

is like

what Mary’s saying, it’s

like it’s

comically

obvious once you’re aware of the basic facts of the situation.

But

they’re relying on people not

paying attention, and not coming

together, and that’s why

think the…

The best thing you

can do,

To save Briar East Woods or to just pay

attention to what’s happening

around in the erasure of green spaces, is to

informed and,

like, you know,

listen

podcasts like this,

And learn about what’s going on.

to public

meetings and stuff and see what’s happening in your

town, ’cause-

if people don’t know about it, they can just

get away

with it, even if it’s so glaringly

Georgia: you guys have a website

and-

Anne: guys [00:58:00] have a website, Yeah. Yeah. So our website is

called

savebriareastwoods.com, and it has all the information about it. And our social media is all- Save Briar East Woods.

Nick: And-

joe: We’ll put links on the, we’ll put links on the

the show notes and have that.

So TJ, you were saying?

TJ: at all possible, go to Briar East Woods.

Yes,

joe: breathe in that.

Yes.

Contribute

your

Anne: CO2

Georgia: CO2 to

joe: the development- the healthy development. benefits.

Georgia: of being out in nature …You’ll feel

joe: You’ll be smarter.

Well-

I don’t know about that,

Nick: Ooh.

Don’t… That’s…

Mary: that’s-

TJ: be

You’ll see some fences that you’ll navigate around,

and then-

Nick: Are

they jumpable?

They’re,

joe: jumpable?

TJ: they’re walk around able. They’re- You You don’t gotta jump.

Georgia: get a little- getting a little

joe: old there, Nick.

Nick: walk-around-able. You

TJ: stair jinx.

You- It’s on Kentucky Avenue

Nick: Yeah. Whoa.

I got

this still. Don’t worry.

Mary: it’s like the difference between

parks and

nature.

Nick: Yeah, It’s, I mean- Yeah.

Mary: parks are valuable.

Don’t get

me wrong.

I love a park. But-

TJ: Yeah

Georgia: na-

Mary: there’s something

just so primal and just so invigorating about-

Let’s park

joe: nature, [00:59:00] too. I don’t wanna- Yeah … I don’t want that message to get out. I think the park is nature. I think the forest.

I think

Nick: pro all pro parks.

joe: Right. We’re all, We’re all we’re not anti-parks.

don’t wanna destroy it. I

don’t want, you

know- Yeah …the mayor calling

like, “

Hey, I

heard on Rebel Research that these parks are fair game now.”

Mary: Well, his,

I don’t think his think they are. yeah.

kids- don’t play sports anymore-

so I think the parks are fair game.

So,

joe: Yeah, I’m

just saying that …I think- yeah …green

space

is, green space should be protected especially… Also, we talk about these areas that are economically depressed, and people take that away.

the,

that the parks are, and it, they’re gonna put things like data centers in, right? Which is even, not even a benefit of housing now. It’s just now something else in poor areas, economically

depressed

Georgia: that’s a different,

joe: that’s

a different

Mary: Yeah, whole different e- yeah.

whole other… But It’s like- That’s a whole other episode … public green space, right?

joe: Right? Because no

one’s there to… It’s just, no one’s there. No one’s using it. Why can’t we just use it, right? So I think that’s the same mentality that I think it’s more about

just

Georgia: But I think

Mary’s [01:00:00] saying there’s even something even more- …because it is

that organic-

spot Yeah that’s been untouched.

joe: Yeah,

Anne: Yeah. it’s

that history you’re

talking about, and it’s the things that are there, you know. Like, you think of a park, and you think of, like, okay, this is

like, a nice place I can walk my dog or

play sports. There’s

lawn. There might be like a

little

wild

area.” But

experience

the natural

wild

landscape

and like

all that history and all those plants-

and you learn

a lot

about

the place that you’re in, and I think you feel

a real,

that primal connection that you’re talking about with

like being

in nature-

and how it’s calming- …and how it’s like there’s

something so instinctual

about-

joe: All right. So if we’re in, we’re going to Brier East-

Mm-hmm

what animals, wildlife can we expect to see?

Anne: Well,

favorite is that there is

Nesting barred owls

there

joe: nice. Yeah. Nice

Georgia: Nice.

Anne: But there’s

all kinds.

There’s foxes.

TJ: There’s

raccoons. Raccoons.

Raccoons.

There’s- [01:01:00] Frogs,

Georgia: right? There bullfrogs.

TJ: There’s bats

Mm-hmm.

Anne: There’s hawks,

red-tailed hawks.

joe: Cicadas …

cicadas, so cicadas everywhere.

Nick: have cicadas everywhere.

joe: Was

right, so they have the cicada

bloom. Was

That

Was

that a couple years ago? You had everyone, there was

the yeah … everywhere.

Nick: All over the place, All over so that had to be exciting. Yeah, a lot of folks. And did you eat, did you try the cicada? Did you go

joe: get

TJ: never.

Georgia: They’re- edible. They’re That

joe: edible.

TJ: favorite animal, bro.

joe: That’s what they’re…

Nick: They like, yeah,

joe: no,

they are edible. Like

you can You

can eat ‘

them.

Georgia: doesn’t wanna hear

that.

joe: one

I’m

just saying.

TJ: chorus, bro.

joe: Maybe it’s

nature’s

snack,

TJ: listen to.

joe: Yeah. I

think I’d

Nick: I think I like crickets more than cicadas.

TJ: joking.

joe: Mealworms

Nick: I love the sound

TJ: crickets. I mean,

uh, look,

I love the

joe: sound- Oh, I thought you m-

Anne: They sound great. I

Mary: sound of

Nick: Oh.

Georgia: We

thought you were, we thought you. were talking

Nick: you. No, I

mean-

TJ: talking about eating. No,

Nick: I’m not gonna lie. You know? you just get

little-

joe: some mealworms,

like, so

that’s

a, yeah, okay.

I’ve

Anne: I have eaten Crickets.

It’s

joe: It’s the [01:02:00]

Nick: See? Crickets are

Crickets are

edible.

Thank

you. And- It’s

the other

white meat,

joe: right?

it’s like…

Anne: So

Nick: question for you guys. You,

said it’s primal, right? Do you guys ever just go out there

and just scream?

Georgia: Like

Nick: top of your

lungs, just-

TJ: I,

normally

scream?

in Bri- in Brier

East Woods. Ah. Like, copy Cat. I’m always screaming. It’s a very loaded

It’s

a very loaded topic

for me.

No rage out. Like, just a good primal

Nick: rage out.

Mary: a

Anne: rage

Nick: let it all

Georgia: And that can make you feel really

good. It does. That’s what… you know,

Nick: We’re talking about,

like, connecting

with the earth

and sometimes just …getting all of it off of

joe: to go. He’s like, “How, how- I

Nick: wanna go scream somewhere … and no one’s gonna hear

joe: I gotta go?

Anne: a good place to do it, the trees

block the sound. See-

joe: Yeah. See, there it …

TJ: it won’t help the

crime happening

Briar East allegations, but

joe: Or, It’s a

good place for serial killers. they’re like,

“Ooh, let me write that down”

Nick: start

a horror story about

being- stuck out

there.

TJ: one will move-

into a

haunted forest, right?

Nick: I’ll haunt people. I’m cool with it. He’s got the

Georgia: bro.

joe: got the

Nick: done it before.

Georgia: glider right there.

I’ve

joe: there,

TJ: think

[01:03:00] we’re circling

back to the poison

ivy

tactics.

joe: ivy. Exactly.

Nick: I’ll be the Blair Witch of Blair B- Briar Witch.

joe: yeah …Briar East East.

don’t Make

the mistake I,

made.

Yeah, no,

TJ: poison ivy … I encourage people to

live in

Briar

East Woods.

I…

j- Just don’t

build a

house. No,

Nick: just- in the land.

joe: Yeah.

You’re just

TJ: haunt

Briar East Woods.

It if you want to help

Briar

East Woods,

the

joe: guys need a…

TJ: Just- get the yard sign. Yeah. Go live in Briar

East Woods.

I’m so serious.

Nick: Just

joe: think you guys need, you

need,

a cryptid.

Nick: We

TJ: need That

would be

wonderful. You need, like, a

joe: Bigfoot or something.

like-

Bigfoot’s taken, Pacific Northwest.

But you need a-

Nick: Indiana

has plenty of cryptids.

joe: But they need

one in

Briar East.

TJ: to tell. Yeah.

We’ll And that we’ll go over it

Nick: on a different… the woods? Yeah, On a different episode.

joe: That’ll be

in the show

notes

maybe.

Nick’s

gonna get on that.

TJ: That’s on

the mini. That’s…

Nick: It’s…

Mary: mini. It’s…

Georgia: Yeah

joe: I… So yeah, we’re

gonna wrap up here. But

I do, I wanna- Ask this ’cause

touched on fiction a little bit

And fiction in particular [01:04:00] about giving trees a voice in different modes, be it positive, be it horror, be it,

or vigilante, but the, the woods have something.

But I just,

You guys are spending a lot of time volunteering your time,

this question’s for both of you. What does the forest say? What does Briar East say to you

that you wish people listening to this podcast, people wanting to build a bridge there,

What, what do you want them to hear from the tree?

You’re s- you’re now the mouthpiece of the trees, so

You

got it

TJ: I’m

alive.

I’m still here, baby.

Nick: Yes.

Yeah,

Anne: Yes.

Yeah, like look at me, appreciate me. They’re so overlooked, or the city wants them

to be.

them…

the neighborhood appreciates it

so much.

Anyone who knows about it and who’s been there can recognize that, But, I mean,

they

are alive and they’re …important, and they provide

so much benefit.

they’re

And I

wish that

they could tell people

I [01:05:00]

all about it.

TJ: They

will-

if you go there.

joe: Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

We’re just too stupid humans to understand their language, right? That’s what you’re saying?

Georgia: language, right? That’s what

TJ: right

now. Right.

Georgia: they’re

joe: Yeah. Cool.

Well,

yeah,

anyone else you got?

Nick: That’s what

you’re

joe: were

you saying something?

Nick: something? No,

all I

thought of- when they were saying that is the tree from Pocahontas.

tree-

No?

You guys don’t remember the tree from Pocahontas? No.

There was like, it looked like an old lady’s face.

is just like,

And she talks to

her, and she’s just like old and wise.

Remember

the- Come

on, none of you?

joe: Remember the mean

trees from

Wizard of

Oz?

TJ: Beauty and the Beast? I was just

saying, Yeah,

if you go to

Nick: you go to

Briar East

Woods, ………the trees throw

Anne: More anti-nature if you’re industrialist, they’ll know. You it things at you. Only in and it’s

joe: like

it can see

into your heart.

It’s

you know, it’s

like a, soul test.

TJ: lately It’s why the mayor wants them

gone.

joe: Do

Nick: guys

have

anything else to plug before we wrap up?

Personal or about the project? Yeah.

Anne: Well,

you should [01:06:00] follow social

media. We do sell merchandise

also, if you visit the website. So if

you want shirts-

Nick: want shirts-

joe: savebriareastwoods.com.

Same.

Anne: savebriareastwoods.com. We

have

cool new Grateful Dead

joe: Oh, nice.

Yeah,

Mary: Sadly you can’t see

There’s no video- but

I’m wearing- We

Georgia: picture.

it. We are gonna take We’ll

joe: take a picture.

Georgia: Yeah. Rock on.

joe: There, you get it.

Yeah. And

Anne, it’s personally though you do music also, right?

Is that,

Anne: I do music

Nick: go ahead and plug that? As well.

joe: Yeah.

Georgia: I’ll

Anne: give a little

plug.

make

music

folk music, singer-songwriter, under

the moniker Tera Firma, Tara Firma, which you

can

stream

anywhere

you like.

And I’m also in a new band called Shy Bronco.

We’re a rock band.

We’re playing on

Wednesday,

August 26th at

The

Owl in Logan Square

joe: Chicago.

Oh, yeah.

I like The Owl. That’s with the winking sign?

Uh, yes. Yeah. Oh, I

love that place.

Oh, yeah, talk about… I’ve never been in there.

Anne: I’ve never been in there.

It’s- it’s a nice spot.

joe: I’ll have to put that on

Georgia: [01:07:00] featured in What is

it? The, Dark Matter

The Killer Piñata.

joe: Killer

Piñata.

The

Killer Piñata. Oh. That’s

right,

Nick: I forgot about that.

Georgia: has some outtakes-

like of and The Owl is in it.

joe: Anyway.

Georgia: Interesting. Anyway,

Anne: We’ll have

joe: Dark Matter too, the Apple- Oh, yeah … Plus TV set in Chicago,

Georgia: they also, you also see in there.

joe: Owl. It’s a great sign. I

Anne: of iconic, yeah.

Georgia: Yeah. So-

Anne: we’re also playing on

Sunday,

August 30th at The Cellar Door in Michigan

City, Hey. And you can follow us at Shy

Bronco,

shy_bronco

Nick: Bronco, @shybronco,

Georgia: Bronco. Very cool. @

joe: shybronco, shy underscore bronco on Instagram. Awesome. TJ, anything?

You play harmonica or something? No, totally.

He said…

TJ: No?

Nick: He’s

TJ: I play the

accordion.

joe: at me,

yeah. He’s like-

Nick: like-

He’s actually gonna be hanging out in

the forest, haunting it from now

joe: be in a

forest. Scooby-Dooing it. He’s gonna have

the

mask

like, “Aha, it’s just

TJ,”

right?

Nick: I

TJ: I did

record I,

I recorded some, like, ambient field recording music in Briar East Woods,

and it was me and my friend recording.

[01:08:00] And it was just,

like,

long drone sounds, and then I would do,

like, bird noises-

with different-

bird calls.

And, and so it

did, it must

have

sounded

like it

was haunted

that day. Yes.

joe: was-

Mary: Woo-woo.

Georgia: it is.

Woo-hoo. Woo-hoo. Yeah,

right, Very cool.

joe: Excellent. All right.

Well,

I think this has been a fascinating conversation.

Nick: you both

so very much. for being here

Anne: you for having

joe: and- You guys

TJ: are so much

fun to hang out with.

Anne: hang out with. Yeah, this was such a great

joe: Yeah.

Well, you guys

are welcome back anytime. You can talk about something else. We can pick another topic,

TJ: Batman. Batman.

Nick: topic,

Georgia: Batman.

TJ: And Northwest

joe: Batman. yeah, yeah. TJ’s gonna

read up

TJ: He’s

joe: Poison Ivy. He’s like,

“I wanna be “

back for the

Poison Ivy

TJ: wanna come back with Poison Ivy.” I’m gonna come out with a Poison

Ivy manifesto.

Watch

Nick: Go ahead and watch

the Harley Quinn cartoon show on HBO Max.

Fantastic. She’s in it.

All right.

Love

joe: Yeah. There it is. So-

That’ll

be your

next merch. Your

merch will

be like, you know, Poison Ivy. See what happens

there.

I don’t, I

don’t

know. It’s

a mixed message there.

Okay. So since we’re at the end.

Yeah,

so you have me, Joe.

Nick: You got You got

joe: Nick. [01:09:00] We got Nick. Georgia.

We got Georgia.

Mary: You got

Mary.

Nick: You got

Georgia: Mary.

Nick: And

we went down some

ho- Nice

joe: safe, stay curious. Go visit the woods. Go

to Brier East. Check it

out. Breathe it in. Love Love it.

Nick: Bye-bye.

Month: August 2026

Newsletter and Transcript of Rabbit Hole of Research Episode 78: Briar East Woods and Urban Deforestation

Episode 78 Transcript

GeorgIa and Jim’s Touch of Noir 2027 Wall Calendar —

Basement Studio’s New Look:

Check out what the RHR crew is creating:

Joe:

Future Events to Hang with the Crew:

It’s Science for Weirdos

We discussed these questions on the episode and now want to Hear From You (leave a comment):

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Show Notes & Fun facts

Stuff crew said they’d put in shownotes

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Fun Facts to Impress Your Friends With:

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“Stay curious, stay safe… Love Y’all!”

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Transcript

Like this:

Episode 78 Transcript

GeorgIa and Jim’s Touch of Noir 2027 Wall Calendar —

Basement Studio’s New Look:

Check out what the RHR crew is creating:

Joe:

Future Events to Hang with the Crew:

It’s Science for Weirdos

We discussed these questions on the episode and now want to Hear From You (leave a comment):

Future Episodes

Show Notes & Fun facts

Stuff crew said they’d put in shownotes

Books

Movies

TV

Comics / Characters

Fun Facts to Impress Your Friends With:

Episode Highlights

“Stay curious, stay safe… Love Y’all!”

Subscribe and Share our Substack newsletter to get email updates, never miss an episode, and spread the word!! Don’t forget to give us 5 stars or a like!

Transcript

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