Newsletter and Transcript of Rabbit Hole of Research Episode 86: Disability in Horror

The crew digs into what horror gets right and wrong about disability representation, aging, chronic illness, eugenics, pregnancy, and ableist tropes.

In Episode 86 of the Rabbit Hole of Research, Joe, Georgia, and Mary (Nick had an emergency) are joined by Bram Stoker-nominated horror-comedy writer Grace Daly to dig into one of horror’s oldest and laziest shortcuts: the different body as a signal of danger, evil, or tragedy. From ableist tropes and chronic invisible illness to eugenics, pregnancy horror, and the potential and ethics of gene editing, we explore what storytelling gets right, what it gets wrong and that a different body means danger.

And don’t worry, Nick will be back next episode!

Where to find Grace Daly:

www.GraceDalyAuthor.com

Order The Scald-Crow (Bram Stoker-nominated debut)

Grace’s upcoming books

The Star of Kilnaely (pronounced ‘kill-nay-lee’) – A fantasy/comedy novella set in a fantasy version in of the American Midwest, told in short stories inspired by both American and Irish folk music and tales, The Star of Kilnaely explores the beauty found in local ecology, community, and legends. Perfect for fans of The Princess Bride or Terry Pratchett. You just might find you live closer to Kilnaely, and to magic, than you think. Releasing November 17, 2026.
Escapist Fiction (Pre-order Now) – Ostensibly about an alien hivemind that overtakes people’s bodies when they become too involved in the escapist media they are consuming, Escapist Fiction is an adult pick-a-path style novel with increased intensity: not only will you make choices, but you will be asked to solve puzzles, smear food on the pages, decorate paper dolls, stab the book, rip the book in half, and more! Ideal for fans of tabletop role-playing games, Black Mirror, video games like The Stanley Parable and Doki Doki Literature Club, and, of course, the classic Choose Your Own Adventure series. Releasing with Agita Publishing on February 16, 2027.

Georgia and Jim’s Touch of Noir 2027 Wall Calendar —

12 months of all-original art by Jim and Georgia; orders are open now, with mailing expected in September

Check out what the RHR crew is creating:

Joe:

Named by the Guild Literary Complex as one of the 35 Writers to Watch!
Red Line: Chicago Horror Stories Anthology featuring a story by Joe!
Joe’s Sci-fi physiological thriller Novel: Will You Still Love Me If I Become Someone Else?
Joe’s Rom-Com Novella: Tomorrow May Be Too Late

Future Events to Hang with the Crew:

Podcast Cross-Appearances

Joe on GoIndieNow: 21grams with Joe Compton talking about villains.
RHR Crew on This Podcast Will Change Your Life with Ben Tanzer

Events & Conventions:

Joe:

Art show Ultrastructure: Science is Fun, with Carol Estes at Promise You Art House in Highland IN, October 10th, 10-3pm
Family Day: Seeing the Invisible World to Build a New One; in conjunction with the fall exhibition: teamLab: Everything Exists in Infinite Continuity, at the Smart Museum of Art In Hyde Park, IL, Nov 14th, 11-3pm
Art and Science lecture about Zombies: Dec 10thGeorgia:The inaugural 4th Street Print Fest at Chesterton Art Center on Saturday, October 3, from 1–4 PM

It’s Science for Weirdos

Want to support the show? Tell your friends. Follow us on social media, Discord, share the podcast, and let us know what topics you are excited about. Leave a Comment. And for email alerts sign-up for the Substack newsletter and never miss an episode, exciting updates or the bonus images we talk about on the episodes.

We discussed these questions on the episode and now want to Hear From You (leave a comment):

Do you have a favorite horror film or book that you think gets disability representation right or spectacularly wrong?
Has a chronic illness, injury, or disability, temporary or permanent, ever changed the way you experience or think about horror?
If gene editing could edit out a condition that caused you intense pain but also reshaped who you are, would you do it?

Drop your thoughts in the comments. We read them all, and your ideas often shape future episodes.

Leave a comment

Future Episodes

Episode 88: CraziesRecorded at Reed’s Local with Melissa and Luc
Episode 90: Witch PleaseGuest: Bill Halliar (@skeletongue)

Leave a comment

For more stuff (Images, Episode Highlights, events, etc), subscribe to our Substack newsletter!

Show Notes & Fun Facts

Stuff crew said they’d put in shownotes

zinebakery.com — Georgia’s find on horror and disability, including a disability representation analysis tool for film and a resources list
Bodies of Horror podcast
Jeremy the Dud — Australian comedy short film that flips disability tropes

Books:

Frankenstein — Mary Shelley
The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde — Robert Louis Stevenson
The Phantom of the Opera — Gaston Leroux
I Am Legend — Richard Matheson
Flowers for Algernon — Daniel Keyes
Rosemary’s Baby — Ira Levin
The Silence of the Lambs — Thomas Harris
Baby Teeth — Zoje Stage
Blindness — José Saramago
Such Sharp Teeth — Rachel Harrison
Brave New World — Aldous Huxley

Films and TV:

Freaks (1932)
Whatever Happened to Baby Jane? (1962)
Rosemary’s Baby (1968)
The Silence of the Lambs (1991)
Jacob’s Ladder (1990)
The Sixth Sense (1999)
X (2022)
A Quiet Place (2018)
Hush (2016)
Evil Dead (1981)
The Shape of Water (2017)
The Voices (2014)
The Substance (2024)
Novocaine (2025)
Primate (2025)
Silver Bullet (1985)
Omega Man (1971)
I Am Legend (2007)
Blindness (2008)
GATTACA (1997)

Fun Facts to Impress Your Friends With or Win Trivia:

Endometriosis and Adenomyosis are conditions affecting an estimated 10% of people with uteruses — Endometriosis occurs when the uterine lining grows outside the uterus on the fallopian tubes, ovaries, bowel, and in extreme cases as far as the brain, continuing to shed monthly and causing internal bleeding, profound pain, and inflammation. Adenomyosis is similar but the uterine lining grows into the walls of the uterus itself, causing it to become severely misshapen. Despite the level of physical agony involved in these two chronic diseases, the average time to diagnosis is 7 years for endometriosis and 10 years for adenomyosis, largely due to medical gaslighting and systemic underinvestment in women’s health research.
The PTSD diagnosis didn’t exist until 1980 — the condition was known as “soldier’s heart” in the Civil War, “shell shock” in WWI, and “combat fatigue” in WWII. It took a political advocacy movement by Vietnam veterans, feminist groups, and Holocaust survivor organizations to get it formally recognized in the DSM-III.
Your threat-detection system is faster than conscious thought — the amygdala processes fear responses in as little as 74 milliseconds (documented in a study published in Nature Neuroscience by Méndez-Bértolo and colleague), well before your rational brain has time to remind you that you’re sitting safely on your couch reading a book.
Buck v. Bell, the 1927 Supreme Court ruling that upheld forced sterilization of disabled people, has never been formally overturned — The U.S. Supreme Court ruled 8–1 that a state could legally perform compulsory, forced sterilization on individuals deemed “feeble-minded” or mentally defective without violating the Fourteenth Amendment’s Due Process Clause. An estimated 60,000 to 70,000 Americans were forcibly sterilized under these state programs, disproportionately targeting the poor, minorities, and institutionalized individuals. While later rulings—such as Skinner v. Oklahoma(1942)—undermined its broader application, Buck v. Bell has never been formally or expressly overturned by the Supreme Court, though modern constitutional standards on bodily autonomy render its core premise obsolete
Ehlers-Danlos syndrome (EDS) is a group of heritable connective tissue disorders affecting collagen production — collagen is the structural protein that holds your joints, skin, and organs together, so when it doesn’t work properly the results range from hypermobile joints that dislocate easily, to chronic pain, fatigue, and in severe cases life-threatening systemic complications.

Episode Highlights

00:00 — Basement Roll Call
Nick is out with a family emergency, but Joe, Georgia, and Mary (on Zoom) kept the show going.

00:46 — Meet Grace Daly
Grace introduces herself as a physically disabled horror-comedy writer whose debut novel The Scald-Crow is a Bram Stoker nominee.

02:07 — Disability as Horror Shortcut
Joe reads the open and Grace responds with a poetry slam snap — “You kind of just did my job for me right there.”

04:11 — Classic Tropes and Slashers
Grace breaks down the major disability tropes in horror — Tiny Tim, inspiration porn, disability as evil marker — and calls out A24’s X as a recent offender.

08:11 — Better Representation Examples
Grace highlights Ash’s chainsaw prosthetic in Evil Dead, Elisa in Shape of Water, and Baby Teeth as examples of disability representation done right.

09:27 — PTSD and The Voices
Joe connects Jacob’s Ladder to the history of PTSD diagnosis, and Grace praises The Voices while noting the uncomfortable reality that its schizophrenic character is still the murderer.

15:11 — Cures, Fixes, and Models
The crew digs into the medical model vs. social model of disability, Flowers for Algernon, and the horror genre’s obsession with the off-screen miraculous cure.

18:51 — Deaf Culture and Gene Editing
The cochlear implant debate and the case of deaf parents who wanted a deaf child, leading into the ethics of gene editing disability out of existence.

23:16 — Invisible Illness and Diagnosis
Grace shares her experience of years of medical gaslighting as a woman with chronic invisible illness and connects it directly to The Scald-Crow.

25:01 — Endometriosis Explained
Grace breaks down endometriosis and adenomyosis — what they are, how severe they can be, and why diagnosis takes an average of 7 to 10 years.

31:28 — Pregnancy Horror and Agency
The crew discusses pregnancy as a horror device, with Grace making the case for Rosemary’s Baby as one of the rare examples that handles female agency and medical gaslighting with real intention.

37:40 — Temporary vs. Permanent Disability
Grace draws the line between pregnancy horror and chronic disability representation, noting that the unending nature of permanent disability is rarely captured in fiction.

39:58 — Achilles Injury Perspective
Joe recounts tearing his Achilles tendon and what a temporary disabling injury taught him.

44:20 — Dynamic Disability Reality
Grace explains dynamic disability, conditions where symptoms fluctuate hour to hour, and why the wheelchair user who can stand for short distances confuses everyone at Disney World.

46:41 — Writing Disabled Characters
Joe asks Grace how to write disability well and gives a shout-out to Seanan McGuire as a model for getting it right.

48:05 — Writing Disability Respectfully
Grace’s practical advice: consume media from within the community, know the tropes, humanize your characters, and always use a sensitivity reader.

49:01 — Tropes and Sensitivity Readers
Grace emphasizes that even when a disabled character does something bad, the disability itself should never be framed as the source or signal of the evil.

51:28 — Teratogens and Environmental Harm
Joe breaks down the difference between carcinogens and teratogens and connects environmental racism, Cancer Alley in LA, and Flint MI.

54:31 — Eugenics and Genetic Inheritance
Grace shares her personal experience with Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, a 50% heritable genetic condition, and the deeply personal question of whether it’s moral to pass it on.

59:21 — CRISPR Identity Questions
The crew wrestles with what CRISPR editing means for identity — Grace notes she wouldn’t have written The Scald-Crow if she hadn’t been disabled.

01:02:27 — Blindness and the Able-Bodied Savior
Joe and Grace dig into Saramago’s Blindness, the National Federation of the Blind’s critique, and why the sighted doctor’s wife as sole savior is the able-bodied savior trope in plain sight.

01:08:13 — Resources and Representation Checklist
Georgia shares zinebakery.com’s disability representation analysis tool and the Bodies of Horror podcast, and reads the six-point checklist for evaluating disability in film.

01:13:53 — Flipping Disability Narratives
Joe brings up I Am Legend and Grace recommends the Australian short film Jeremy the Dud as an example of flipping who gets to define “disabled.”

01:17:49 — Movies That Get It Right
Mary asks Grace for horror films that get it right — Grace praises Novocaine for its portrayal of invisible disability, and gives props to Hush, A Quiet Place, and Primatefor their Deaf representation and disabled actors.

01:24:38 — Wrap Up and Upcoming Books
Grace plugs The Scald-Crow‘s Bram Stoker nomination, previews The Star of Kilnaely(November 2026) and the wildly interactive Escapist Fiction (February 2027), and the crew signs off.

“Stay curious, stay safe… Love Y’all!”

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Transcript

00:00:00 joe: Hey, welcome back to the Rabbit Hole of Research down here in the basement studio. We are not crewed up down here this week. You do have me, Joe. We’ve got- Georgia … we’ve got Georgia. We’ve got- Mary … we’ve got Mary, and Mary’s not in studio. She’s on Zoom. And a familiar voice is, if you’ve been listening to the pod is missing, and that’s Nick.

He, um,

[00:00:28] geo: Oh. He unfortunately

[00:00:29] joe: couldn’t be on, on the show during the recording. He had a family emergency-ish kind of thing happen. So, we- the show goes on, and he will be

[00:00:38] geo: love you,

[00:00:39] joe: We do. We miss you. fans

miss you. They might turn it off now. “We’re only here

for Nick Like…

Those

[00:00:44] geo: point.

That is a really good possibility.

[00:00:46] joe: We do have a very special guest, so I wanna go ahead and let Grace introduce herself

[00:00:54] grace: Hi my name’s Grace Daly. I’m really excited to he- to be here, bleh. I [00:01:00] am a horror comedy writer. I also do some fantasy comedy and some sci-fi comedy, but everything I do is a little funny and a little silly. I am physically disabled by chronic invisible illness, and all of my writing involves disabled characters.

My debut novel, The Scaldcrow is a Bram Stoker nominee and focuses on the experience of living with invisible chronic illness and undiagnosed chronic pain

[00:01:27] joe: Yeah. Thank you. And so, yeah Grace and I, we met at an author event, and I told her about the podcast, and we were just chatting, and she says, “Oh, you should do an episode.” So we’re here. We’re here to talk about disability in horror, and it’s something that I hadn’t really thought about, maybe like on the surface, but it was interesting, so I’m really excited to dig in to this topic.

As everyone knows who listens, I have my open. I know Mary really loves the open, so, just

[00:01:59] geo: [00:02:00] She’s

[00:02:00] joe: here in studio to give me the look, so I get to… Yeah, so it’s just

[00:02:04] geo: me And-

[00:02:05] mary: Fine. Okay

[00:02:07] joe: Yeah, so we’ll set the stage for everyone. Your brain has been programmed through millennia of evolution to be tribal and cautious of the other.

The uneven gait, the scarred face, the eyes that don’t work right, the voice that chitters, the valley of uncanny flesh, and something in your lizard brain responds faster than your rational brain can process that you are safely sitting in the comfort of your living room, watching or reading fiction.

Horror didn’t create that response. It’s our built-in flight or fight threat detection system that’s been running in the background since before we had language. A system that was never designed to be rational, only fast. What horror and sci-fi did was figure out how to exploit that reflex, and a good storyteller weaves a story that has us sleeping with the lights on.

But the lazy writer figured they could exploit our physical differences [00:03:00] for a cheap jump scare. Define normal and point a camera at a wheelchair, a tremor, a mind that doesn’t work the way the audience’s does, and can get the same valley of uncanny flesh response in them. And now we have to undo 200 years of storytelling that exploited the plot shortcuts of the different body is a thing you should be afraid of.

What does it cost all of us when a genre teaches over and over that a different body means danger? And what happens when a person the genre spent two centuries using as a prop decides to write the horror themselves? So that’s,

[00:03:35] geo: That’s it.

[00:03:35] grace: I’m doing like a poetry slam snap

in case if it’s not

[00:03:39] geo: Yeah.

[00:03:40] joe: Yeah. No, so

[00:03:42] grace: in audio

[00:03:42] joe: yeah. As I was putting my notes together and doing research I kinda really thought about it like I said, I didn’t really think about how people and disabilities are used as a prop in fiction. So I’ll let you go ahead if you wanna jump off Grace, and it sounds like you, you were [00:04:00] snapping there, so you

[00:04:00] grace: was so excited. Yeah. I mean, you kinda just did my job for me right there.

[00:04:05] joe: that’s a good host, right? No.

[00:04:08] geo: host, right?

[00:04:08] grace: Yeah, that’s beautiful. So yeah, so historically disability has not been presented in fiction in particularly positive lights. There are a series of tropes that a lot of fiction including horror, tend to kind of fall into.

One that’s really familiar to a lot of people is the Tiny Tim phenomenon, where s- a disabled person is expected to be kind of this this very gentle, cute and childlike figure who is serving basically as an inspiration to able-bodied people to be a good person and, and to be generous.

Another common one, again, disability as inspiration, is a disabled person who is [00:05:00] inspiring to the protagonist or to an able-bodied character because they’re doing something pr- pretty normal, it’s usually not a disabled person who, goes and, wins the Olympics or writes a bestselling novel.

Usually when it’s structured this way, it’s a disabled person who, goes to the grocery store or is a parent and then that inspires your able-bodied character to live their best life. The comparison I’m thinking of immediately, and I don’t know if your listeners would know this reference, but a little bit like a women in refrigerators phenomenon, like in comic books, where women are killed to inspire the male protagonist to go, fight the villain.

A lot of the times a disabled character will overcome something or will suffer in some way to inspire the able-bodied character to do something. But another really common trope that Joe just pointed out is disability as a marker or [00:06:00] as a signal of either latent or overt evil and wretchedness.

And obviously this is pretty present in historical depictions of horror. Especially the slasher era of the ’70s and ’80s had a lot of that, with Leatherface and Jason Voorhees. But it’s still happening in a lot of modern media. The one that really stuck out to me and that I didn’t hear a lot of outcry about, which was kind of surprising to me because it was so popular, is in A24’s X that came out in 2022.

I watched it expecting, … Oh, I don’t know what I was expecting. I wasn’t expecting so much of the horror to come from just a- old woman being old and disabled,

[00:06:51] geo: Right.

[00:06:52] geo: The old ro- the old woman the old hag the… Is in so many m- [00:07:00] movies,

[00:07:00] grace: Yeah, in so, so, so many movies. And actually if we go like way, way back, like into the early 1900s and even like the late 1800s a lot of the times disabled figures in like horror works were more framed as tragic figures of pity. Like Frankenstein’s monster,

[00:07:19] joe: or a monster. Mm-hmm. Phantom of the Opera was

[00:07:21] grace: yeah, Phantom of the Opera Hunchback of

Notre

[00:07:23] joe: Dame, yeah, Quasimodo.

[00:07:24] geo: and Quasimodo. Mm-hmm Yeah.

[00:07:25] grace: yep, Quasimodo. 1932 had T- Todd Browning’s Freaks,

[00:07:30] geo: I was gonna, I was, yeah, I was gonna bring up Freaks,

[00:07:34] joe: Yeah. Yeah

[00:07:35] geo: I’d love to hear what you think of Freaks. That

[00:07:37] grace: Oh, well, what’s really interesting about Freaks is that it actually had a pro- predominantly disabled

[00:07:44] joe: I

[00:07:44] geo: Exactly.

[00:07:45] joe: of the first

[00:07:46] grace: Yeah, so something that you see in a lot of modern media, even when there is the rare disabled character the cast members themselves won’t actually be disabled.

And I don’t know, I mean, it’s the year of, our Lord, not that I’m [00:08:00] religious, but it’s the year of our Lord 2026, and in 1932 they were doing a better job of actually hiring disabled actors than we are these days. And that’s not to say that there aren’t really cool representations of disability in horror.

One of my absolute favorites is for movies, obviously there are deaf characters in A Quiet Place and Hush, both of which are really cool. One that’s a little older that I really love is in Evil Dead, Ash loses his hand and just, you know- Oh, yeah … what a prosthetic with that chainsaw.

[00:08:35] joe: chainsaw. Yep.

[00:08:38] grace: You gotta love that sort of disability representation. Elisa in Shape of Water by Guillermo del Toro is a really cool disabled character. I really like Elisa, especially because her disability not only impacts her character, but it also directly impacts the plot, and she’s able to [00:09:00] interact with, the monster in a completely different way that none of the other characters even think to attempt because of her disability.

And then in literature, I really recently enjoyed Baby Teeth by Zoje Stage which features a main character who has Crohn’s disease and is deeply impacted by this invisible disability that she’s struggling with. And there’s, I mean, there’s lots of other cool stuff too.

but

[00:09:27] joe: To throw in there is and see how you feel, Jacob’s Ladder. I thought especially with the PTSD because that disorder was one that wasn’t recognized at first, and it kinda went through a lot of,

[00:09:40] geo: of,

[00:09:40] joe: historically, it was kind of this thing, soldier’s heart in Civil War time or shell shocked in World War I- Mm-hmm

combat fatigue in World War II, and it was never really diagnosed un-

[00:09:53] geo: And that-

[00:09:53] joe: Oh, you were- A while. Yeah. I was gonna say until the until the ’50s and ’60s, where they kinda started to put some [00:10:00] descriptors around it. And then Vietnam War happened, and that was not politically,

[00:10:05] geo: And they talked about Agent Orange in

[00:10:07] joe: Yeah, the whole thing where the veterans, Vietnam veterans, came back, and in doing some research, they, they worked alongside feminist advocates who were working on rape trauma and Holocaust survive- survivor groups organized politically to demand recognition for PTSD as a diagnosis.

And so it was really like it, it wasn’t just they knew this scientifically this was happening, but it took a political movement- Yeah … and advocacy for this to be recognized. And the thing in Jacob’s Ladder, you did have… He was a Vietnam vet, and you had this kind of… He had all this disassociation kind of trauma, P- the PTSD trauma that he was having there, and it was

[00:10:49] geo: well- And it worked really well. Yeah. The very unreliable- Narrative … Like you really… And also that, but also I, I think horror [00:11:00] really lends itself to talk about men- mental illness or mental not even mental illness, but mental issues because have you seen Voices?

The movie

[00:11:10] grace: have not seen Voices

[00:11:11] geo: Oh it’s so well done. It’s so disturbing. But

[00:11:15] grace: look it up

[00:11:16] geo: it really gets into, I think he had, what, did he have schizophrenia?

[00:11:21] joe: I think so, yep. Yep.

[00:11:22] geo: But it, and it’s what’s

[00:11:24] grace: Oh, is this the one starring Ryan

[00:11:26] joe: a little scary, but I

[00:11:27] grace: I

have seen Voices. It’s amazing.

[00:11:29] geo: is really amazing.

[00:11:31] grace: the title of it.

[00:11:32] geo: Th- Yeah … I think that’s one of the only times you really get an insight.

It was just so well done. Yeah.

[00:11:39] joe: And you move the

narrative up-

[00:11:41] grace: my one criticism of Voices, and this isn’t necessarily a criticism of Voices the film in isolation, but we are running into, again, the disabled person as monster problem in

[00:11:56] joe: gonna say.

[00:11:57] geo: Right,

[00:11:58] grace: On its own, it stands [00:12:00] alone as a really interesting movie. But I can’t think of another movie with a schizo- of another horror movie with a schizophrenic character at all.

The only one I can think of is Voices. And spoiler alert for anyone who hasn’t seen it, the schizophrenic guy’s a murderer. So one of the things- Thank

[00:12:23] geo: but you do really kind of re- not relate.

[00:12:26] grace: him much better. He’s

not just, like,

[00:12:29] joe: not a mas- yeah, he’s not a Jason or Michael Myers

who-

[00:12:33] geo: And he’s very human. And he’s

[00:12:35] joe: and you have that. yeah. But

you’re right.

I was gonna, that was my, I was gonna bring that up that … it’s still one where mental, most people- with mental disability, with n- neural diversity aren’t violent people, right? I mean- Statistically they’re no more violent than anyone else in our society, but they get

portrayed,

[00:12:53] grace: actually if you look at the data folks who have mental illness are much, much more likely [00:13:00] to be victims of

violent

[00:13:02] joe: Exactly right. Yep, that’s

[00:13:03] grace: of violent

[00:13:03] geo: Exactly. Yeah.

[00:13:05] joe: other thing I… Oh,

[00:13:05] grace: this… Oh, sorry,

I was just gonna say, and this does dovetail very nicely into The Scald Crow. My main character in The Scald Crow does have very clearly cPTSD, which isn’t technically in the DSM, but it’s pretty well-established.

So complex PTSD, which for the listeners is distinct from, your more classic PTSD, because your classic PTSD is usually formed by one very high-stress episode. So a car crash, you’re in the trench with your best friend and he gets blown up, a one specific, one specific moment.

Whereas cPTSD is developed when somebody suffers a traumatic situation over and over and over and over again, oftentimes a lower trauma than a car crash or an explosion, but consistently exposed. And they’re not [00:14:00] able to properly stand up for themselves, defend themselves, and actually protect themselves from the danger that they’re experiencing.

And my main character, Briege, in The Scald Crow, is physically disabled but does also clearly have cPTSD that impacts her. And she is not a murderer, so

[00:14:20] joe: Yeah, that’s

good. Very good

[00:14:22] geo: Yeah. Right. It’s one of

[00:14:23] joe: Yeah, no. You’re right. It’s one of these things that you have. And I wanted to say you used the acronym, and I might have used it too DSM Diagnostic and Statistical Manual that they go through and they

[00:14:33] geo: evaluate- And that is a very, just that topic all by itself is fascinating.

Just like how that came about and what ends up in The and it’s so political and so- Yeah …

[00:14:46] joe: What you’re gonna cover, what you’re gonna take care of because you think you got veterans you now have to take care of them and so now if they have a diagnosis, then you have to treat them for that diagnosis.

If you… But then you can, if you write the rule book and say, “Well, this isn’t [00:15:00] really a

[00:15:00] geo: And it’s all a matter of-

[00:15:02] joe: then you don’t have to treat it. And so

[00:15:03] geo: it’s all a

matter of numbers and codes that get used, whether the insurance will pay for this or that. Right.

[00:15:10] joe: So- But

[00:15:10] grace: Oh, definitely

[00:15:11] joe: say speaking of cure zones, we talked about this. I always think one, the other thing is we’re talking about like trope-y things. One is the fix. So you have the horror and I, and one, we talked about this the other day, Jordan and I have just by chance I was putting things together and Flowers for Algernon, which I think

[00:15:29] grace: I love

[00:15:30] joe: it’s very… It is, it’s such a great… And if people haven’t read it, it’s just so one of these stories where you have a person with a mental disability- Yeah … and then they’re, and then they’re fixed they- by this special treatment. Right And you’re rooting for them and they’re, spoiler alert, they’re not violent or anything like that.

But it’s like the, it, you have a disasterous end. So it, it follows the H- the Jekyll and Hyde kind of thing too, where you have someone that’s unstable, they’re trying to fix their own problem, and [00:16:00] then you’re using that as the plot device to drive the story forward and, this false cure kind of thing that, that f- we’re gonna fix you to make you normal instead of recognizing that the normal is a, is some sort of range and not always- Yeah

not always

[00:16:19] grace: Flowers for Algernon does it very beautifully. But yeah, you’re right that another common trope of disability in media is that the … A- and this is actually a societal opinion of disability too. It’s usually described as the medical model of s- disability versus something like the social model or the humanist model.

The medical model being that disability is a medical issue. The only way it should be addressed is to cure the disability, fix the disability, make the person normal. If they can’t be made normal, it is a failure. They are a failure. And it’s really problematic for a wide variety of reasons.

[00:17:00] But yeah, that shows up in fiction a lot too. Another horror trope disability horror trope that I see a lot that I think is kind of related to the medical model, or I think it holds hands with the medical model in that sort of every disability should be fixed trope is one where you see this so much in horror.

People suffer all of this incredible physical violence and emotional trauma and just, just are totally torn apart. And then the book ends, the movie ends. There’s the little scene of everything, and

they’re fine. There’s no …That the miraculous cure that just kinda happens off screen and off page is one that’s always very funny to me because that’s not at all how, our bodies function.

But yeah the kind of drive for cures and the drive for fixes is a really interesting thing in fiction. And as for me as a disabled person, it’s one I really struggle with a lot because my conditions [00:18:00] involve a lot of physical pain and a lot of limitation. And so sometimes you do hear disability rights advocates arguing very strongly that they don’t want a cure, that they are perfectly content the way they are.

And I’m … Like, two thumbs up for those people. I’m so glad that they have that level of, self-love, self-acceptance and that, they’re able to feel that way. I really struggle with perceiving my disability in that light, I think because it causes me so much physical pain.

And so this is an interesting point of, I don’t wanna say conflict in the disability rights community, but it is an interesting point of push and pull. Yeah of, is it

right, is it moral to want to be cured?

To stop being disabled

[00:18:50] geo: areas I

[00:18:51] joe: I saw in just researching up this topic was in the deaf community.

[00:18:55] geo: was gonna say- we talked about this recently … and

[00:18:58] joe: cochlear

[00:18:59] geo: [00:19:00] several

times we’ve talked about this recently.

[00:19:02] joe: And some of the th- I mean, ’cause this gets into implants, and we can we’ll probably get into prosthetics and things like

[00:19:08] geo: And also the gene editing,

right?

[00:19:10] joe: Gene

editing where they’ve now edited out back in function. And so I know there’s a lot of people in the deaf community who are advocates because there’s a culture and the aligned ALS and, this is one of the things that’s really rich, and so they advocate against not using cochlear implants in young children.

Let them… Right. And so it’s this whole,

like-

thing why- Well, but- You’re fixing, we’re fixing the problem.

[00:19:35] geo: was also- “… but really-” You said there was a case where the parents were both deaf, and they wanted their child to be deaf. Right. Wasn’t that one

[00:19:43] joe: that was- That’s right. There was, there were case- Yeah

yeah, there was cases like that where it was this argument made that we, we’re a deaf family and this is our culture, and this is our- But it- … way of life, and that’s, why is this not normal in this, and it’s not… I think the pain one is really interesting ’cause that’s a physical almost [00:20:00] impairment that you have to deal with, and that affects so much of your life, whereas maybe some of these other ones are, they don’t involve physical pain, which I think physical pain is always

[00:20:10] grace: Physical

pain, yeah.

And it’s not just pain. I also get brain fog. I get incredibly dizzy. I faint. I’ve got these, episodes of systemic anaphylaxis where I really could die. And so one of the things that’s so important to remember when we talk about disability, and one of the reasons why I love disability representation so much, and why I think it’s so important, and why I’ve made it the focus of my writing, is because disability is not a monolith.

The

[00:20:35] joe: That’s right. Yeah, exactly.

[00:20:37] grace: say that, like- Right … every woman feels this way,

[00:20:41] joe: right.

Right, Right,

[00:20:43] grace: Yeah,

[00:20:43] joe: a community, yeah, and you have that and no, I think

[00:20:46] geo: it’s- Well,

it’s on an individual basis. Every

single individual, how

they’re-

[00:20:51] grace: it’s also interesting because it’s really the only minority group that you can join at any time, and that the [00:21:00] vast majority of people will one day join. I often joke that death comes for us all, disability comes for most of us. It came for me a little earlier.

[00:21:10] joe: Yep. No, it’s-

[00:21:12] geo: And I recently saw a quote, and I’m not gonna get it right, but it was something like, “I don’t have the luxury to have a disability.” I mean, and it was an interesting quote because it was like healthcare, like this person had no healthcare, and like it was just so… That, I don’t know, that was just struck me like-

[00:21:30] joe: Yeah, And it’s, I mean, to pull back into fiction a little bit I mentioned in my open, it’s just lazy. You can… It’s very easy just to use that, even the fix, because all the stories are about fixing.

It’s not about… I mean, you could write a great story about the fix and how you’re interacting now with your friends who might not have. They might be on the other side of the fix, and they might not wanna be, quote-unquote, “fixed,” and how you, your whole life would change in that. Usually, it dives into you become a psycho, or you become, [00:22:00] unstable emotionally, or you become…

It’s all this, it becomes very horrific and horrible, and it’s what are we warning against? And I think some of it is warning or not wanting to, become disabled. And then we have stigma built in oh, when you get old, I don’t wanna wear glasses. I don’t wanna, I don’t need a hearing aid.

And then these things have even, now there’s links that people who don’t treat their hearing loss or get hearing aids at earlier age, that may lead to Alzheimer’s and things like that. We’re starting to see now other ramifications of this kind of cultural, stig mating,

stigmatizing-

[00:22:36] geo: Stig mating. Ooh …of these lenses. that’s a new, that’s a new one.

[00:22:40] joe: When we stig mate lenses, you stig mate

[00:22:42] geo: Oh,

[00:22:43] joe: I’m a-

[00:22:43] geo: I

like that. I kinda like

[00:22:44] joe: that I’m

an electron microscopist, so it’s like I don’t wanna stig mate the lens, no. But you have this it, you have this happen, and then people don’t take care of themselves.

They ignore problems because they don’t want to, because we’ve been taught through our media and through our culture the [00:23:00] l- culture at large, that this is something to be fearful of. And if it happens to you, you’ll be on the outside looking in and not able to participate. So I think it’s this really it was interesting.

[00:23:11] grace: Oh, and there are so many interesting social ramifications and thought experiments too with that. Like trying to decide, who is… One topic that I feel like comes up a lot is who’s worthy of healthcare and who is worthy of receiving care, if two people need a liver transpa- plant and, one of them’s an alcoholic and one of them isn’t, is kind of like a clear classic example. But you can see this happen a lot subconsciously particularly in cases of chronic invisible illness. I’m kinda like connecting it back to Skull and Crow again.

But there is this feeling that I… I mean, I experienced this a lot. It took me a long time to get a correct diagnoses after symptom onset. And there is this implication you [00:24:00] get as a person who has an invisible illness, but especially as a woman who has a dis- invisible illness or, assigned female at birth person who has invisible illness, that you’re anxious, you’re a hypochondriac.

And because you are a woman and you’re expected to be anxious and you’re expected to be melodramatic, you are less deserving of care. There’s also a expectation that women and people who have uteruses experience a lot of pain. And when I say the expectation, I’m talking about in medicine, for gynecological procedures and for women’s healthcare.

I have among my many diagnoses, I have endometriosis and adenomyosis. And it was not unusual for

[00:24:51] joe: before you go on, just for

[00:24:52] grace: Oh, sorry. Should I explain what

[00:24:54] joe: Yeah, please do. Yeah, so that we can educate a little bit

[00:24:57] grace: of course. Sorry, I’m, I talk about them [00:25:00] so much I forget. So endometriosis and adenomyosis are very common health conditions that impact people who have uteruses, women.

E- estimated to be about 10% of people have one, or of people with uteruses have one or the other condition or both. Endometriosis is when the lining of your uterus grows in places outside of the uterus. So you’ll have endometrial t- put tissue that grows on the fallopian tubes, on the ovaries, on the bowel.

But it’s found, it has been found as far away as in women’s brains. So it can be like a full body thing. W- and when I talk about this uterine lining, it’s not just a one-time thing. It’s not like the lining grows and then, whatever. You continue having a menstrual cycle with this lining. So the lining grows and sheds and grows and sheds every month, [00:26:00] resulting in just, interior bleeding profound pain and inflammation.

There are all sorts of, involvements of other systems. Frequently, bowel problems are highly correlated. Hormonal issues are highly correlated. It’s not rare for it to get so bad that different organs are fused together by the endometrial tissue growing in the wrong places.

Oh my God. So you know, your bowel fused to your uterus or your ovaries or something. That’s not uncommon. Adenomyosis is a very similar condition with where the uterine lining, the endometrial tissue is growing into the wrong place, except for instead of growing outside the uterus improperly, it is grows into the walls of the uterus.

Ooh. Again, where it is not supposed to be. It causes the uterus to become, incredibly misshapen. The lining continues to shed into the muscle walls of the uterus. It’s not supposed to be there. Incredibly painful. Causes all sorts of, wide-ranging complications. And [00:27:00] 10% of people with uteruses have these conditions, and it takes, on average…

I have the exact numbers written in the afterword of Scald Crow, but I believe the average time for diagnosis is seven years for endometriosis and 10 years for adenomyosis. Oh, wow. Which, yeah, is unconscionable- Yeah … Because the… I cannot overstate the physical agony. And I remember talking to one of my male friends once when I was just in such pain.

I mean, couldn’t stand up, puking on the floor level pain. And I had one of these episodes, and then I was talking to him later. And I didn’t go to the ER because this happened to me every month s- often- Oh my God … many times a month. Oh, God. And I had gone to the ER before, and I would get treated like I was drug-seeking.

I would go to gynecologists and be told that it seemed like, I was [00:28:00] anxious. I would be told to try birth control pills. I tried, I think, 12 different types of birth control, none of which effectively controlled my symptoms, and in fact, made me way worse due to complications with my genetic disease, Ehlers-Danlos syndrome.

And then I wasn’t believed about those complications either. And it’s just this kind of horrible merry-go-round. And I remember talking to one of my male friends after one of the episodes and saying, “Is there any-” any physical symptom you could have that caused you this much pain where you would be dismissed by a doctor?”

And he said, “No, I can’t think of a single thing,” and what’s really crazy is a lot of women I’ve talked to have experiences like this, and every woman [00:29:00] I know has a close friend or a family member who has experienced exactly what I just described. This is not a rare thing. And so it’s really crazy when I talk about, who deserves healthcare.

Again, the one we always think about is well, who’s gonna… Who deserves the organ transplant? Who deserves to live? But who deserves pain control, who deserves to be taken seriously when they go in?

[00:29:29] geo: Well-

[00:29:29] joe: And have that. And I was gonna point out, and this has come up in, I think with Sai in the heart episode just how underfunded and understudied women’s health is in general as you go through there. Just thinking about outcomes, li- health cardiovascular health, menopause, autoimmune

[00:29:49] geo: health,

[00:29:50] joe: none of this is… Right. Yes. Right.

[00:29:51] geo: I was gonna say, look at menopause

and all that stuff. I think that I’ve talked to several people that were nurse practitioners or and they said they only got a month. [00:30:00] They talked about menopause for a month in their studies.

[00:30:04] grace: Yes. yeah. Menopause is

famously unknown

[00:30:08] geo: so much,

[00:30:09] joe: a month in their studies. Right. Right. Yep. And, you know- Yep … it was like… And I was like- Yeah.

There’s so much research there, and I’ll point out ’cause Nick’s not here now, so there’s three, women I, that’s here. So I’m, I mean, so

[00:30:17] grace: Joe stands alone.

[00:30:18] joe: treading a little lightly here. I’m not gonna I have no… I

[00:30:22] grace: don’t think anyone’s gonna go, “What did you mean by

[00:30:24] joe: Yeah.

Right. Exactly. No. Yeah. I, I can… No, my only- I think

[00:30:28] grace: with

[00:30:29] joe: No. The only, I mean, only insight I have too is that I am a Black man person of color, and we also, you can go in pain and things like that. It’s “Oh, you’re much more tolerant.” there’s many racist studies that were done- Yeah

Thick skin studies, and these things have been taught into- Right … current, med school. People still believe this, and you have this, that women have a holler- higher tolerance of pain because of childbirth, and you’ve just stories in the last few years of Black women in particular dying in childbirth [00:31:00] because their pain management wasn’t tended to carefully, and

[00:31:04] grace: can’t remember exactly what the rate is. But yeah, Black women are so much more likely to die in childbirth. I do believe that the rate of Black women getting accurate diagnoses for endometriosis and adenomyosis is also even longer than white women. And disclaimer, you can, people can probably guess from my name, Grace Daly, but I’m white.

So It’s a very Irish name.

[00:31:28] joe: Yeah, and I was gonna say that, I mean, we’re speaking of women but birth is one of these that gets, in horror, it’s used a lot. Like that’s a trope that comes out- Oh,

[00:31:38] grace: Oh, yeah

[00:31:39] joe: so,

[00:31:40] geo: can be horrifying.

[00:31:41] joe: childbirth, Yeah,

Yeah, right. I have I’ve only,

[00:31:44] geo: I mean,

[00:31:44] joe: I- I’ve only been on the watching end of it,

[00:31:46] geo: of

[00:31:47] joe: it’s kind of…

But yeah, so. No but I was gonna…

[00:31:51] grace: pregnancy. One I always love is, and actually ironically written by a man, but Ira Levin’s Rosemary’s Baby. I know- Mm-hmm … [00:32:00] okay, it’s been out for 50 years, folks,

so s- spoiler alert, she

[00:32:03] joe: You can… On a show, you can spoil anything that’s 20 years or older.

[00:32:08] grace: Cool.

[00:32:09] joe: Other than that, you have to give a warning.

If it’s 20 years or older, you can, you don’t have to give a warning.

[00:32:14] grace: I don’t know

[00:32:15] joe: but yeah, so.

[00:32:16] grace: it was

la- it was that,

that came out last century, folks.

[00:32:20] joe: Right.

[00:32:21] grace: but yeah.

So, one of the things, so if you actually read Rosemary’s Baby, which I highly recommend folks do. It’s a very slim, it’s very well-written. I’m a big fan of that little novella.

But he does a great job of depicting Rosemary as losing so much of her agency once she becomes pregnant because she stops being viewed as a person and starts being viewed as a vessel.

[00:32:45] geo: right. Right, right,

[00:32:46] grace: and there’s like kind of this, you learn at the end, evil doctor character who she keeps going to visit this obstetrici- ob- obst- obstetrician, that’s a hard word for me. But she keeps going to [00:33:00] visit this OB and she keeps talking about her pain, and he keeps saying “Oh, it’ll be gone any day. It’ll be gone any day. It’ll be gone any day. It’ll be gone any day.” doing this kind of medical gaslighting, which is, also a theme in The Scald Crow and happens so frequently.

And there’s this one really salient moment, and I remember I loved it so much when I was reading the book, I took a picture of the page. And she’s decided to throw a party for her friends who aren’t in what we later learned is this Satanic cult, and she decides that she really wants to throw this party and see her friends.

She’s been cooped up because of this sickness and this pregnancy, and she hasn’t seen them for months. And her husband, who’s part of the Satanic cult, is like trying to dissuade her to do it and, from doing it, and he says, “Well, how are you gonna tolerate the pain?” And she looks at him and she goes, “Well, didn’t you hear?

The doctor say it’s gonna be gone any day.” And it was just this really beautiful moment of this, ill, disabled woman [00:34:00] taking her power and her agency back. And I really love that moment. It’s great. It’s great, Rosemary’s Baby.

[00:34:06] geo: I have to say it. Oh, sorry.

[00:34:09] grace: Oh, go ahead. No, go ahead, Georgia.

[00:34:10] geo: I just wanted to put a shout-out for the movie too, ’cause that’s my favorite movie or one of my top five favorite movies, so.

[00:34:19] grace: But,

[00:34:19] geo: What were you gonna say, Mary?

[00:34:21] mary: I’m also… Oh, gosh, I haven’t, I haven’t read Rosemary’s Baby in so long, but when you started to talk about it, I remembered, remem- And I think it was, like, the same party where she’s with her friends, and her friends they see her and “Oh, my God.” They’re just horrified by her condition, and it’s so affirming for her.

And, it gives- Yes … her the the confidence that she needs, and she realizes that she’s been sort of just surrounded by these people that just don’t listen to her.

[00:34:51] grace: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:53] geo: Yeah

[00:34:53] joe: Yeah.

[00:34:53] grace: especially- Oh, my God … when dealing with invisible illness- Mm-hmm … that kind of validation is so, so [00:35:00] valuable.

Again, big- Mm-hmm … theme in Skull Crow is the way that my main character has been gaslit into believing that even as she, bleeds profusely, even as she has these incredible painful bowel episodes, even as she has this incredible pain every single day, that, there’s nothing wrong with her and that she’s just being melodramatic.

Mm-hmm. And that’s so, so demoralizing, so dehumanizing, and it’s so common in cases of, invisible illness and chronic pain. It really is. Yeah.

[00:35:34] geo: No, I just, it made me think of another book that I really love, is Such Sharp Teeth. I don’t know if you’ve read that, by Rachel Harrison.

[00:35:43] grace: that one, but I hear it’s wonderful

[00:35:45] geo: that, and it’s and it’s fairly new, so I’m not gonna go too much into it, but it’s a werewolf story.

But I think it’s real-

[00:35:52] grace: Harrison,

[00:35:53] geo: yeah, I think it’s really interesting, the whole idea of pregnancy and transformation in a werewolf story.

[00:35:59] joe: Like- Right[00:36:00]

[00:36:00] geo: but a- actually, your body is transforming with this other human inside. It’s it, there’s a lot of

[00:36:06] joe: There’s a lot of changes that happen. Can speak per- personally about that, but yeah- Yeah … there’s a lot of changes that happen and-

[00:36:12] geo: But I think it makes a perfect- Right … it, not metaphor, but it makes a perfect in fiction. Yeah. It was, it, yeah.

[00:36:21] joe: Yeah. ‘Cause you are kind of having that transformation event and going through yeah. So-

[00:36:28] grace: And I, I did have an interesting experience where my best friend who’s able-bodied, when she was pregnant, she had Oh I’m try- I’m I believe it’s called hyperemesis. The- … condition where basically she was incredibly nauseous, and she was, vomiting profusely every day through the first trimester and into the second trimester.

She was… It was very scary. She lost a lot of weight. She was very weak. She was very fatigued. And I remember talking to her on the phone [00:37:00] one day and her saying for the first time- Mm-hmm … she was like, “I think I understand what living is your, in your body must sort of be like.” And she’s “And for me, this is going to end, and I’m gonna get a pretty cool baby.”

And she’s “And for you, it’s never going to end, is it? It’s only going to get…” My conditions are progressive. And she goes, “It’s only gonna get worse.” And I was like- … “Yep.” And

[00:37:31] geo: Yeah.

[00:37:32] grace: I know it sounds like a depressing conversation to have, but actually I was very comforted because again, it’s this profound feeling of validation.

Mm-hmm. And so that’s always an interesting thing is one thing that I have noticed in horror and in a lot of fiction too is that one of the… And one of the reasons why I find myself forced to kind of reference Rosemary’s Baby as often as I do is because there’s not a lot of portrayals of disability that aren’t stereotyped and harmful in [00:38:00] horror.

And a lot of the times when there are portrayals of disability, like the big famous ones that come to mind are pregnancy stories. And pregnancy can be permanently disabling, and pregnancy is certainly in a lot of cases temporarily disabling. And it is a transformative event, and it is a health event.

And for a lot of women, it’s their, first encounter with serious healthcare. And I’m not saying that it’s not a big deal. It’s a huge deal. But it is fundamentally a temporary state. And disability, again, it’s not a monolith. People can become disabled and not be- and become undisabled and stuff like that.

But a lot of the times when someone’s disabled, they’re disabled for life. And when we’re talking about chronic invisible illness and chronic pain, there’s a lot of, grief, and a lot of the experience has to do with the unending nature of it. You can you can never forget, and you can never ignore it.

I [00:39:00] had a close friend who had Type 1 diabetes, and he and I on paper had absolutely nothing in common other than being disabled, but we were able to have this really kind of intimate and special friendship because He really understood in a way that, most straight men I talk to just don’t, the inescapable nature of living with my disability.

So even though they were both so different, even though both of our conditions were so different, he related to that feeling of never being able to forget about it, and never being able to relax ’cause with Type 1 diabetes, you can very easily die. And so that is one thing that I always draw the line between, like in like pregnancy horror and, other representations of disability is pregnancy is inherently a temporary state.

And a lot of the times, a lot of the stress of disability is the permanence of it

[00:39:56] joe: Yeah. Well, sometimes you feel that. I, and I was, while you were [00:40:00] talking about that and I, I think at closer to the open you had said people will maybe eventually have a disabling episode or will have as they get, as they age and I was thinking about when I tore my Achilles tendon And, it was, so I was in my 30s, and it’s it’s s- you get a cast of, they do the, a two-hour sewing job to sew the tendon back together. You get a cast on, and it’s eight weeks no weight bearing. So, here you are, very athletic, and we had I think a our youngest was four months old, so it was kind of this weird…

And we had a six-year-old at the time. And so really I was out I couldn’t… You- no weight bearing, that means you’re on crutches or a little trolley thing, a little

[00:40:46] grace: got your little

[00:40:47] joe: Yeah, so you, you are essentially you’re in this temporary disabled state, and then you realize how much of the world is difficult.

And I tell a story Georgia, ’cause [00:41:00] I’m just brooding around the house. I can’t go upstairs, I can’t go downstairs in our house. So I’m just staying in the guest room in our downstairs, and can’t take a shower ’cause the shower’s upstairs, so I’m just, washing up. And so I’m just really, a few weeks in, I am not in a good head space.

And,

[00:41:16] geo: All work and no

[00:41:17] joe: and your- Yeah, right. And then my my old boss was bugging me about writing this paper, this manuscript, so he was like, “Since you’re home doing nothing.” Well, I’m doing something. So it’s this whole hopped up on, right. So yeah, so I’m… And so Georgia’s “Well, I gotta go and, pick up, get daycare, do this,” do stuff.

So she’s, and I’m just at home. She’s “Well, I made you lunch. It’s in the kitchen, and just get it when you’re ready.” So I crutch into the kitchen, I crutch in there, and I look and she had made this great sandwich-

[00:41:47] geo: I’m sorry.

Okay?

[00:41:48] joe: sliced fruit. It was this whole little thing, like a juice box.

It was just laid out there. But I can’t carry this anywhere, right? ‘Cause I got two crutches. So I’m like why would you do this?” [00:42:00] “Why would you do this to me?” And I’m, like, freaking out. So I get a Ziploc bag and I throw all the food into the Ziploc bag, then I go back to the room.

So when Georgia comes home, I’m, like, eating out of this Ziploc bag with a clawed hand. I’ve gone completely psycho.

And you “What are you doing?” And I’m like, “Well, I couldn’t carry a plate, could I?” So I’m like, just really that

[00:42:20] geo: was like-

He had that Jack Nicholson look in his eye.

And she’s

[00:42:23] joe: like, “Why don’t we get you…

Why don’t we go get some ice cream?” And then we went to Dairy Queen and then I was happy again. But it was, like, for a moment I thought I, I completely snapped. I was in there just talking to myself. And so no, I, it is one of these things when you are abled-bodied and in that, this thing, especially suddenly, it’s not a gradual…

Like, when you get older, you gradually kind of, hopefully you gradually ease into so you can’t You know, can’t run as fast, you can’t cut, but you’ve had time to adjust to that. When you have this sudden this debilitating thing happen, [00:43:00] I think it is, it you do

get that

[00:43:01] geo: o-

[00:43:02] joe: I will, I will- right, you get

that perspective and you understand a little bit more. And you’re right, it was one of these things that in your head… And I, you said, I think something you said was interesting, that it’s not permanent, but when you’re in the middle of it, it feels very permanent, and it feels like you’re going to be, this is my life now and I need to get used to that.”

And I remember starting physical therapy, and they were like, “You’re, we’re gonna get you back and you’re you can recover. You just put the work in.” And it’s “What? Oh, m- what do you mean I can re-” it’s like this it was, you’re surprised. It was like, “Oh, I can? Oh, what do I need to do to get there?”

It was very, yeah, but in your mind, going through to eight weeks and then another eight weeks to get back to a little weight bearing, I mean, so 16 weeks of not walking, not being able to use your leg, not being able to move around like you’re used to, really fast it was like, “This is my new life.

This is my new condition.” And then if someone goes, “No, y- you can.” And that whole [00:44:00] idea of fixing it that, that comes in, and, “Yes, let’s do it. Let’s go.” “I’m ready to go.” I think that’s, I think it’s, starting… And you see that in fiction, or at least when it’s well done, someone starting some place and then, a good classic story.

But, handling that well and the psychology that goes into that, it’s really, it’s interesting. Yeah. Yep. So,

yeah.

[00:44:20] grace: one of the things that’s interesting too for a lot of disabled people, and this is my experience, is there’s something called a dynamic disability. A dynamic disability being a disability that isn’t where symptoms and ability levels aren’t the same day to day, hour to hour. And that, a- and a dynamic disability often doesn’t fit the mold of what we imagine disability to look like.

So your classic joke of this would be like, somebody who can stand and walk a short distance, but not a long time. I mean, the joke I’ve heard is at Disney World if you’re a wheelchair user, you can [00:45:00] cut the line and just go right up to the front of the line. But a lot of wheelchair users can stand and walk for short distances.

They might not need to use a wheelchair in their home, but maybe they do when they’re out. Maybe they’re using a wheelchair not because they can’t walk, but because they have a fatigue condition. There’s lots of reasons why you might use assistive technology. And so one of the jokes that I’ve heard a bunch of times is, someone’ll skip the line at Disney or whatever, and then they’ll stand up and everybody in line will be like, “Hey, what’s the deal there?”

And, the person’s “It’s a miracle,” is like the joke. But that’s something that’s really hard for a lot of able-bodied people to wrap their head around. It’s

[00:45:41] geo: All

right

[00:45:42] joe: right

[00:45:42] grace: bro too. And it’s, and it’s this concept of a dynamic disability where sometimes your symptoms, your pain, your whatever might be very severe.

And in those moments, yeah, you’re… I mean, I at least– Okay I can’t speak for everyone, but I’m gonna speak for [00:46:00] myself. I mean, when my pain is very severe, I am a shell of a person. I barely exist, I yearn for the sweet release of death. And then, 24 hours later, I can be chatting the same way I’m chatting now.

It’s very disorienting and in its, in and of itself, exhausting and just full of grief and trauma just to experience that physical experience. ‘Cause you’re totally right, Joe, that when you’re significantly suffering or when you’re significantly limited, it’s very difficult to keep, like a positive outlook.

It’s very difficult to adjust to a new normal. It’s very difficult.

[00:46:41] joe: Yeah, and I mean, so, I how would you advise people to write, I think, I’m thinking of authors who write disabled characters well. Seanan McGuire

[00:46:54] grace: Oh, Seanan McGuire’s

[00:46:56] joe: Mira Grant and her horror. And I read a lot of her work, and so when I [00:47:00] started thinking about this, I was like, you know what?

[00:47:01] grace: She’s

[00:47:02] joe: has, right, she’s done a lot of that, and the characters,

[00:47:06] grace: And she herself is autistic,

[00:47:07] joe: She also has ADHD. That’s right, yeah, and ADHD y- yep, she got diagnosed. And, it’s I feel it’s similar to writing, about anybody who is not yourself. Your own cultural background or whatever

[00:47:20] geo: Or gender or- Yeah, your gender or

[00:47:22] joe: is, I always say do no harm and as you navigate that. But y- it’s very easy in horror, and I think in sci-fi too, to slip into something. I mean, so how- That

[00:47:33] geo: of those tropes and- Yeah. ‘

[00:47:34] joe: cause it’s oh, I’m gonna write this character who gets, they get the gene edit, and now all of a sudden they can ta-da, and then it goes off the rail, right?

Or they get… Or Substance, right? Now, don’t, I’m not gonna spoil it if you haven’t

[00:47:45] geo: you haven’t seen it.

[00:47:47] joe: It was about aging and- Yeah, right. Fixing it … aging

was a disability, right? Because you lose your job, your livelihood, you get displaced. I mean, that is, that’s now…

It was treated as a disabling [00:48:00] kind of thing that if you can’t live your life or

y- Which you can’t, I think, in your head.

[00:48:03] geo: I think, is this- and so

[00:48:04] joe: and so here’s this fix to it. And so I wonder, do you have, how do you navigate, I mean, in your characters, right? I mean, and how would you suggest able-bodied people that wanna write you know,

[00:48:16] grace: Yeah, totally. So, one thing again, disability’s not a monolo- mo- a monolith.

I don’t speak for all disabled people. I’m just saying that up top. And I’m sure you could find a disabled person who says that you shouldn’t write a disabled character if you don’t have that disability, blah, blah, blah. I a, staunchly disagree with that.

I think that disabled representation’s really important. I think if someone is approaching it, even if they’re able-bodied or they’re writing a disability that they don’t have, if they’re approaching it with as much respect and mindfulness as possible I think they should totally do it. I really I really think it’s an incredible opportunity for empathy for both the writer and the creator and the [00:49:00] reader to experience.

That being said I think you should kind of try and follow good rules of thumb that you’re ri- that you would follow for any minority group or anything that you yourself are not a member of. So that means try to quietly, without making it about you experience, media and culture and conversations from those groups of people.

And so that you’re better to able to understand their real perspective, not just a stereotyped perspective that you’ve seen. So consume media, conversations, culture from those, from that specific group. Try to be aware of the disability tropes that already exist, like using disability as an inspiration, acting as if disability only exists to be fixed the disabled body as a grotesque or horrifying figure, disability as a sign of latent evil.

You should know [00:50:00] all of those and look into the different disabled tropes to make sure that you’re not falling into one of those. And if you do have a disabled character who does something bad, like Ryan Reynolds in The Voices make sure that you’re humanizing them and making them an entire person.

And try to not make it that the disability itself is the source of the evil or a sign of the evil. And then this is my, gold standard mwah, is, Talk to somebody who has the disability that you have and have them be a sensi- that you’re writing about, and have them be a sensitivity reader.

And you can pay people to do this, you can find people to do it. It’s really important that you do this because those sensitivity readers are gonna be able to catch things that you might not catch. So highly recommend that. And just in general, and this is a really good rule of thumb for writing about any group [00:51:00] that you yourself are not a member of, just remember to create a well-rounded character, and r- remember that they, the character is a person, is a person.

That they’re not gonna be defined by just this one thing

[00:51:18] joe: Right. Yeah they’re well-rounded. No, I think that’s a… Yeah, that’s good- Yeah …

[00:51:22] grace: Yeah.

[00:51:23] geo: good in, in every situation. Yeah. Like in like-

Right … to keep those things in mind. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:51:28] joe: I was gonna swing back, if I can ’cause I was just thinking, we brought up Freaks in, in that movie, and I wanted to touch upon teratogens, so I gotta talk maybe a little science and carcinogens and things like that.

So yeah a carcinogen, most people are familiar, is an agent that directly increases incidence of cancer. So as a mature body person these are things that you encounter. Alcohol is one that you can encounter [00:52:00] that’s a carcinogen, right? So you get, liver cancers, mouth cancers.

Smoking nicotine, that’s a carcinogen. A teratogen is something that causes a kind of malformations of embryos and birth defects. And so, and so the same chemical c- can be, it can be both a carcinogen or teratogen, but some things are just teratogens, and then as you’re an adult, a mature, you…

It doesn’t affect you the same way. It’s not a… it may not be a carcinogen. And so you have this kind of thing that you have to think about. And so there’s a lot of, kind of speculation, especially in the ’20s and the eight- late 1800s things like lead was used in a lot of products. And so lead is a teratogen, and it does have a lot of effects on early embryogenesis and development of the fetus.

And so you have these agents that come in, [00:53:00] and you can, have this kind of high incidence and things in your environment. And so it’s really, something to think about as we policy and as I was looking up things and it was this really interesting one was Cancer Alley in Louisiana.

So I, I didn’t know anything about this. It’s a 85-mile stretch along the Mississippi River in Louisiana between Baton Rouge and New Orleans, known for having one of the highest concentrations of petrochemical plants, over 200. And so there’s a really high incidence there of, of birth defects and birth problems.

And so you have this kind of issue. And still even now in, our day and age you still see this there. But it was just interesting. There’s some little history and that’s been played kind of, environmental racism. You got Flint and their, kind of lead in their water problems and things like that, and people freaked out and but for good reason. It’s not oh, they should, shouldn’t have. But yeah,

[00:53:59] grace: [00:54:00] and one of the ones that I worry about in our very modern day is, like AI data centers. Yeah. And, like taking like spiking electricity bills and taking water resources and things like that, mostly from disadvantaged frequently not white communities,

[00:54:16] geo: Yeah.

[00:54:16] joe: yep. No, yeah, I think that’s… So you have these, yeah I, that’s maybe new horror can be there about

[00:54:24] grace: New horror. Yeah.

[00:54:26] joe: in and- There’s

[00:54:27] geo: There’s lots of

[00:54:28] joe: really challenging

that

and- and having that. And I was gonna say the other area getting into a little bit of the the science there, but that’s kind of trying to breed out disability.

[00:54:39] geo: and that goes with eugeni- ju- eugenics Right. Right. Yeah. Eugenics. Sorry.

[00:54:43] joe: Yeah,

[00:54:43] grace: Yeah,

and eugenics. Yeah. And that is such, I mean, obviously for so many reasons that’s such a thorny issue, you … I think that con- it comes up a lot in discussions about neuro divergence, autism and ADHD. I personally also have my own [00:55:00] interesting feelings about this because my kind of

I always joke that I’ve got my main disease that, like, all other diseases stem from. So my primary diagnosis is a genetic disease called Ehlers-Danlos syndrome. And so, I have a genetic disease. And so I’ve actually thought about this a lot. I’m one of seven children. It has about a 50% pass down trait.

It’s it seems to be dominant. They don’t know exactly the subtype that I have. They don’t know- … exactly what genes trigger it. But it seems to be pretty dominant and of the seven kids in my family it’s, four of us have the clinical diagnosis, so yeah, we’re pretty much spot on there.

And it’s something I think about a lot. It tends to be milder in people who are assigned male at birth, men. Testosterone has a protective effect that reduces some of the symptoms. It’s not the disability and when men have it but it tends to be milder in [00:56:00] men, tends to be more severe in women.

My brothers that have it did both have children. Me and my sister have not partially because our symptoms are so severe, and it’s actually something I thought about a lot. I it was ultimately determined that me getting pregnant would be too dangerous with my level of symptoms, and so I, I decided, not to.

It would be very dangerous for me, for the child, very high rates of of miscarriage, et cetera, et cetera. This is very detailed. But I remember being younger and thinking about it and trying to decide whether or not it would be moral for me to have a kid if I knew there was a 50% chance that they would have the same disease that I, or the same, the same genetic disease I have.

And I remember thinking about it very hard and it being something so difficult for me personally to answer. And I don’t know how it’s such a thorny issue, and I worry about it a lot [00:57:00] as science advances because, who’s to say, again, who deserves healthcare and who’s to say who deserves to exist, and so it’s

[00:57:10] joe: But you could have it– I mean, you can think of it the other way, too, that if it’s a genetic disorder that now with CRISPR technology that you could, you, you could get pregnant and they go, “Yeah the embryo now we’ve detected a genetic anomaly, and we can go in now and edit that out and put a functional correct gene in.”

So now you’ve made this choice very early and they won’t, now you can still… Right? So that, that might change your thought pattern about it. You might go, “You know what? Let’s do it.” And then, well, right, yeah, I’m just saying, right, I’m just saying that you have

[00:57:48] grace: but for somebody, yeah, for somebody else. Yeah,

no,

[00:57:51] joe: you get into that where especially with genetic dis- like, especially ones that maybe you can pinpoint down and that– then that gets into the [00:58:00] deaf community, right? Because now you go early on, “Hey, we can correct this,” and your, son or daughter now, right, won’t– you won’t have this, issue to deal with and that, that’s very interesting.

But I wanna take a little pause because I threw two terms out. I threw epigenetics out ’cause I was talking about environmental stuff, and it’s come up on other episodes. So epigenetics is kind of, how your environment can in- affect your gene

[00:58:28] geo: gets turned on and turned off

turned off.

[00:58:30] joe: and then that can be passed gen- hered- that can be inherited th- as you have kids.

And eugenics is the pseudoscience movement to improve the human population through selective breeding. And so that, and that was really it was a big movement in and I think they would target disabled people targeted sterilization so that the bad, genetics wouldn’t get into the population and it was a Supreme Court…

Right. So the Supreme Court actually, I believe, upheld sterilization of [00:59:00] disabled people in the Buck versus Bell in 1927 ruling, and it’s never been formally overturned.

So I was looking up

[00:59:07] geo: That’s interesting …so it was kind of, Yeah

[00:59:09] joe: That’s how pervasive it was and

[00:59:11] geo: very scary. Yeah. And

[00:59:12] joe: Yeah,

[00:59:12] geo: who has a right to do

[00:59:13] grace: It’s very spooky. Again, like who has a right to exist?

[00:59:17] joe: And so now with the genetic tools you can now– That’s why now it, it segues into

[00:59:21] grace: other thing that’s kind of like spooky to think about and this one, this is just, this is now I’m just like kind of going like musings that Grace has at 2:00 AM when she can’t sleep, is exactly how different am I if I’m not disabled?

Let’s say I got magically CRISPRed, I can tell you for certain that I wouldn’t have written The Scald Crow

[00:59:42] geo: Right,

[00:59:42] grace: I wasn’t disabled. I only started writing because I stopped being able to work a, quote-unquote, “real job” due to the severity of my symptoms. And, writing I can do a few hours here and there when I’m feeling capable.

And so I’m able to kind of fit it in with my [01:00:00] symptoms. But I mean, I sleep a cool 12 to 16 hours a night. I can’t I do a couple hours of physical therapy every day. I’m not I’m not able to do, a 40-hour work week. And so it does… I do often think, ah as, as much as I don’t want to experience, my pain, my dizziness, my fainting, my, my bowel problems, my dislo- my joint dislocations, et cetera, et cetera as much as these are all, personal tragedies, also who am I without these things?

And what do we culturally and societally lose when we just decide that disabled people don’t have value, it’s- Yeah … it’s such an interesting and and complicated quandary. And I don’t know. I always think disability rights is such a fascinating topic because it’s so thorny, it’s so complex, and it’s so deeply personal

[01:00:56] geo: Right Yeah.

[01:00:57] joe: No, and it, yeah, it’s really [01:01:00] Yeah, it’s interesting now, especially with some of the genetic tools that are coming online and what can be done, and I think these decisions will be… And when are these decisions made? How will they be made?

[01:01:12] geo: and

[01:01:13] grace: will they be made? Who will be involved in the decisions? Yeah

[01:01:16] geo: Mm-hmm …

[01:01:16] joe: And I think you’ll…

I, Brave New World comes to mind, right? And that that also had this, kind of where you start, creating classes with, because who

[01:01:25] grace: Or GATTACA? Yeah.

[01:01:26] joe: Gattaca,

[01:01:27] geo: you

[01:01:27] grace: Oh,

[01:01:29] joe: and he had… I mean, technically he was, because everyone else got genetically modified and their, kind of their flaws were genetically corrected, if we call them quote-unquote flaws he the protagonist in that story was struggling as an a normie, I guess, it… That he was a natural born without genetic editing, and he was now saying, “I can be just as great because I’m not bound by limitation. I’m not bound by expectation,” [01:02:00] right? “Because no one expects anything, and now I can go out and achieve.” And so I think you, you do have that, but, now we’re getting to the point where Gattaca isn’t maybe As sci-fi

[01:02:11] grace: As sci-fi as it once was, Yeah

[01:02:14] geo: a

[01:02:14] joe: of handwavium in there because it’s still like you, you shed a lot of hair and skin and DNA stuff, so that whole he took a scrub shower and… Yeah, right. Yeah. He’s it’s I don’t know, buddy. You’re working there. What I was gonna, I was gonna point out, and it was interesting, is probably should reread this novel, but I really enjoyed it.

But that’s Jose Saramago’s Blindness.

[01:02:37] grace: Linus,

[01:02:37] joe: came out in 1995. And if people know, he was a Nobel Prize winning novel- novelist about, excuse me, a mass epidemic of people, they become blind. This white blindness they called it, and then society collapses. And kind of blindness was being used as this metaphor for moral de- the moral kind of collapse and [01:03:00] social breakdown.

W- and so it’s kind of interesting. And so I… This was a really well-written story. So it’s a really good

[01:03:07] geo: it’s also a movie. It’s also really, and it’s

[01:03:09] joe: But there was… There’s also a

really… And it’s a really good movie that follows the book.

[01:03:13] geo: just like- Yeah

advocating movies.

[01:03:15] joe: I know. Yeah. And it, it follows the

[01:03:16] grace: the book.

[01:03:17] joe: I mean, almost scene-for-scene-

Really

[01:03:19] geo: a

really good

[01:03:20] joe: It was one of… I mean, I think in terms of a book to movie, it was almost translated directly. That was why I was like, “Oh man, look, that scene was… They’re not gonna do that scene. Oh, they are doing that scene.” Like kind of… But you had… I mean, the thing now, you had fo- the National Federation of the Blind, they came out and critiqued the movie.

Because they said the blind characters in the novel lose not only th- their sight, but their courage, their decency, and their ability to tend to basic needs. And you had this, and then the one immune character the sighted doctor’s wife, the only person capable of action and kind of the… ‘Cause the people who were blind before this an epidemic happened, they [01:04:00] became like kind of lords of the prison and, they actually got…

They were taking advantage now. But it wasn’t like they didn’t have decency to go, “Hey, let me help you out, buddy. Let me help you guys figure this out.” It was like, “What can I get for this?” And it was like it was like when, it’s that thing when the tables turn-

[01:04:16] geo: Sometimes you think, “Well, maybe that’s pretty

realistic.”

And

[01:04:19] joe: maybe that’s pretty rude. I mean, right, but that was the same- Sometimes- I mean, I guess that was the- Occasionally … that was the same, I mean, kind of the same arguments about freeing slaves. That if they get power if the slave or enslaved peoples get power, then they’re gonna treat white people like they were treated.

And, that’s never in a narrative that happens. It’s this kind of a fear. And so this, the book, I think it was kind of like that if disabled, blind, people were given equal footing, they would become treacherous and dangerous, right? And it was a, it was written in there.

You… I didn’t… I think I said I was reading the critique, and I was like, “Oh, you know what? I didn’t actually think about that.” But,

you

[01:04:55] geo: know- Yeah …it

[01:04:56] joe: like they were just characters in this book, and I just

[01:04:58] grace: I, yeah, I [01:05:00] mean, I need to read that critique because I’m gonna be honest, when I read Blindness by José Saramago, and like the actually, the blind characters were suddenly at an advantage, I was like, “Yes, queen!”

[01:05:15] geo: Yes. Yeah.

[01:05:16] joe: I didn’t see anything wrong with it, right, but I could see how that,

um- right

that, that could be, could be seen as being uncivilized and animalistic, and that all of a sudden now you could be, you have an opportunity now to lead. Yeah, right, right, right,

right.

[01:05:32] grace: I see the validity in that criticism. I should look it up and read it. I, and I wonder Yeah, I really wonder, because part of me is okay, yes, that’s … I’m gonna have to read it, because part of me immediately goes, that’s a very valid criticism.

Blind people aren’t inherently treacherous, evil people. That would be crazy. But there, but then the, then there’s the other half of my brain goes but they’re not virtuous either, because you don’t wanna fall into a trap of every [01:06:00] disabled character

being perfectly moral either. That’s not a well-rounded

character.

We’re running into inspiration-like vibes

[01:06:09] geo: just human nature, human nature. You’ve been like- Right … put in this situation, and now suddenly you have this power. It’s, and-

[01:06:17] joe: I mean- You know?

I’ll point out, I’ll say this here, because the same critique is put on movies of the white savior in movies with people of color. And so, and the same here, you had a sighted savior, an able-bodied

savior- Oh, my gosh …who

was the…

[01:06:34] grace: that I agree is a problem. Oh, yeah. yeah. I’m

[01:06:36] joe: why couldn’t you have…

So I mean, and

[01:06:38] grace: sighted savior is a problem. Yeah.

[01:06:41] joe: don’t want, I mean, he won a Nobel Prize for writing. I’ve won no prizes for my writing, so I don’t wanna go there. But he could’ve had the character who showed decency and compassion be a blind person who was already blind, and come in and then, “Oh, hey, let me help.

Hey, you’re doing the wrong thing.

[01:06:59] grace: How much [01:07:00] more interesting, yeah. How much more interesting would Blindness by José Saramago be if the doctor’s wife was just blind?

[01:07:08] joe: That’s right. That’s right. And all of a sudden it was like, hey you know what? And then she gets into that prison scene, and then she real- she would realize, hold on, there’s people taking it… Right, ’cause you’re right, people are people. It’s not a monolith. There’s, you’re right. We just

[01:07:20] grace: yeah, I would

rather

[01:07:22] joe: could have, right, you could have that. I mean, I’m just thinking out loud, like it would’ve been

so much more- powerful to have it… Right, right, right. I mean, and it was a good… Like I… Grace, I agree with you. When I read it, I was like, “This is a great… This is

like- if I can write a

[01:07:35] geo: a lot of people really liked

[01:07:37] joe: it.

was like, yeah.

[01:07:38] grace: point though. Yeah,

[01:07:39] joe: yeah, their critique, and once again, I’m not blind, and so I probably didn’t pick up on that. I pick up on themes in books with, people of color in it because that’s my cultural background and probably if people had kind of, invisible pain syndromes, you might pick up on that and go, “Oh, hold on.

That’s why they portrayed us,” but, so I think

that

[01:07:58] grace: and

this is coming back to what [01:08:00] feels like the theme of the episode, which is disability is not a monolith. Disabled people are people. Yeah

[01:08:07] joe: And

in Power, I mean, when you get a chance in Power and… Go ahead. I was gonna s- I’ll segue to something, but go ahead.

No, I- Georgia.

[01:08:13] geo: I was just gonna say I found a really good source.

It’s the website zinebakery.com. I don’t know. That’s

just

[01:08:23] joe: show notes.

[01:08:24] geo: random, but it’s this essay on horror and disability, and it’s so excellent. So I definitely want you to put this in. And they also have on here … I … They went through a lot of different films and was talking about, and some of, a lot of them are ones that we talked about.

It’s interesting. The earliest one goes back to the eugenics, and I’ve never heard of this movie. Not a surprise, ’cause it’s from 1917, The Black Stork. Actually about eugen- eugenics. Mm-hmm. And basically [01:09:00] it was basically promoting the murder of disabled children. And yeah. And it’s just fascinating.

But, and then of course Freaks and

[01:09:10] grace: don’t murder disabled children.

[01:09:12] mary: We’re gonna take a stand.

[01:09:14] grace: I’m against it.

[01:09:15] joe: of research. And then

[01:09:17] geo: Of course, one, one of my, one of my fun… not fun, but one of my movies that I enjoy is Whatever Happened to Baby Jane? Of course. Bette Davis and Joan Crawford. But of course, that’s got so many issues, so many problems. But

[01:09:33] joe: y- or go ahead. I was gonna add something ’cause I had that, I just saw on this hagsploitation. The, were you gonna say that? It was a term that came up, and I didn’t realize this was a thing. And it… I was doing stuff and what happened to Baby Jane, it’s a thriller, a horror thriller subgenre arising in the 1960s, and it features an aging, formerly glamorous actress playing mentally unstable or m- ma- malevolent woman [01:10:00] typically trapped in isolation and terrorizing others.

So there was a whole subgenre of this hag-

Right, sure … hagsploitation, and I d- I was like, “Oh, that’s… I didn’t

know

[01:10:09] geo: about this disabled person that is totally relying on this other person, and, have no power whatsoever, and yeah. And I mean,

[01:10:18] joe: And it was, like, mean, that was, I’m trying to think, and that was, the… It was a subplot of it, but Sixth Sense, right? ‘Cause that was the girl that she kept sick.

[01:10:27] geo: the mom the stepmom

[01:10:28] joe: The stepmom kept the girl sick- … and kept, and then he went and found the video of getting fed the poison.

[01:10:35] geo: fed the poison. And there’s actually a really interesting movie that’s pretty recent about a boy that, that the mom is trying to keep him s- disabled and sick and I can’t think of the name of it.

[01:10:48] joe: do. I think I

know what you’re

[01:10:49] geo: But also, and this is like just such a great essay, and they also have a lot of would you like to know more and resources, books, videos, articles. But [01:11:00] one of the things is they have on here a tool for analyzing disability representation in film, and they go over authen- A list.

Yeah, I have a list.

[01:11:10] joe: a list. Nick’s not here, and Georgia has the list. What’s happening,

Mary? I’m

[01:11:15] geo: gonna

[01:11:16] joe: go into- Mary’s… Georgia has the list.

So Grace, if you don’t listen, every… I usually have a li- I do have a list, actually and I go through fiction stuff, so Georgia has the list now, so let’s…

[01:11:28] geo: so. So authenticity, is the actor playing the disabled character disabled?

Frequency, is there more than two disabled characters? Embodied empathy, is the story told from the disabled person’s point of view?

[01:11:45] joe: of view?

[01:11:46] geo: Status, is the disabled character equal to other characters, neither superior or inferior, and not playing subordinate, de- dependent, or a [01:12:00] super I feel like I shouldn’t say that.

It’s almost derogatory. But what was I on? Status. Mm-hmm. Depth. Does the disabled character exist for themselves with flaws, ambition, character, development, a range of emotions, and disability being one aspect among many? Avoiding the character being primarily defined by disability or their narrative purpo- purpose being exclusively for the education, growth, or motivation of non-disabled characters.

And then the last being range. The portrayal is normalizing counterstere- stereotype or stereotype subverting and avoiding reinforced stereotypes. So I thought that was a good list- … to look at. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:12:53] joe: It is.

[01:12:54] geo: But yeah, I want … I don’t see an actual author name on this essay, so that’s [01:13:00] why Yeah.

But it is a zine. Okay. And and under podcast, I thought this was very interesting, so I went, I saw the resources to find out more, and there’s a podcast Bodies of Horror. I don’t know, have you heard of that, Grace?

[01:13:13] grace: Oh, I don’t know that one

[01:13:15] geo: And it’s part of, it’s part of a bigger … Because then I went to Apple, and it’s part of a bigger

net- You

[01:13:22] joe: a rabbit hole?

[01:13:22] geo: Apple?

I did. I did. And I’m trying to remember. Let’s see. Anatomy of a Scream is like the pod- It’s Anatomy of a Scream Pod Squad. So they have different series within that, and one of them is this body, Bodies of Horror, and they go through different films and talk about specifically disability in film.

And I was like, “So cool.” Yeah. That,

[01:13:49] joe: add one

[01:13:50] grace: before.

[01:13:51] geo: one other,

[01:13:53] joe: I think, I don’t know, I thinking about things, but a little flip of it all was I Am Legend [01:14:00] Richard Matheson 1954. And so you have that case is that you have the world is mo- is all vampires, and you have just the one human or last normal human which then particularly the, that human is the disabled person in this world, right?

I mean, so it’s this kind of flip. If you think of that, it’s stories that flip the, the whole thing on its head, where you have this kind, especially in horror, where you have now and he’s going through who’s the monster in that ’cause he’s out. Especially then in the movie portrayals, Omega Man, I Am Legend, he’s, they’re going out just killing.

Indiscriminately the others because they feel they’re the normal, but really, they’re outnumbered now, right? Y- Th-that hadn’t even switched. It’s not oh, you know what? You’re just the la- you’re holding on to this lost cause. So I think it’s just really interesting when you think that how do y- who defines disability

[01:14:59] geo: And [01:15:00] normal. And

[01:15:00] joe: So and define normal, right, in that, so, There’s actually an

[01:15:03] grace: So there’s actually a really interesting short film. This is not a horror short film but it plays with

[01:15:09] joe: Yeah, so far

[01:15:10] grace: and it’s called Jeremy the Dud. I was just

[01:15:12] joe: No,

[01:15:13] grace: flipping around. That’s why I was being so rude flipping on my phone, ’cause I thought it was called Jason Jason the Dud, but no, it’s Jeremy the Dud.

It’s an Australian comedy short film. And it flips disability kind of tropes and narratives by it shows a world where every the vast majority of the characters in the world are disabled, and able-bodied people are the distinct minority, and they’re called without specialty. And they’re treated as like a subclass of human.

And it’s a really … It’s really interesting. Highly recommend. It’s 20 minutes long. Highly re- It’s free on YouTube. Highly recommend looking up Jeremy the Dud as a made by disabled people, like [01:16:00] featuring a lot of disabled actors kind of like view of exactly that interesting thought of “Wait, what defines who is disabled?”

[01:16:07] joe: Right. No, yeah, I think it’s– I think there’s ways to tell these stories without diving into stereotypes and

[01:16:15] geo: much, there’s so much material there. Wow. From different

[01:16:18] joe: right? I mean, ’cause I think you can have this and, even interacting as an able-bodied person, how, these conversations and in the story and writing that, it, I think there’s there’s ways to do it.

I’m thinking coming off the top of my head, Stephen King in Misery, right? ‘Cause that was a twist on that where, he was able-body until he got in the accident, and then he was,

[01:16:38] grace: And then he’s trapped,

[01:16:39] joe: And he’s trapped in this situation when, you know, and

[01:16:42] geo: he has-

[01:16:42] joe: to get out, and he is, I think to my Achilles tendon episode like, you realize this, right?

[01:16:48] grace: And I mean, I can only speak for myself, but I feel pretty confident saying this, that if you’re an able-bodied person and, disabled people, you have disabled people who you love in your life, which you almost definitely do lots [01:17:00] of people are disabled. I personally am always very moved and very appreciative when my able-bodied friends, want to watch or consume media with a disabled representation, and then talk about it with me, and talk about my experiences and what I connect to, what I don’t expect connect to.

It can be a really good way to like kind of show care and build a better connection and better understand the world of somebody who you care about. . There are so many millions of reasons why disability representation is important, but you know, that’s another great thing too.

Disability representation isn’t just for disabled people. You know- … It’s part of the human condition. So- Well,

[01:17:37] joe: Yep. Well, like you said, we’re all … I mean, at some point we’ll either have

[01:17:42] grace: vast majority of us are gonna be disabled at some point,

[01:17:44] mary: can I ask a question?

[01:17:46] joe: Yeah, go for it

[01:17:47] geo: it

[01:17:47] mary: I have a question for Grace. So, in movies do you have any examples of movies that you feel like get it right or feel authentic to you?

Hor- I’m looking at horror movies.

[01:17:59] grace: Okay, so [01:18:00] this one is more of an action comedy. Mm-hmm. But the one that I really loved that came out recently was Novocaine. And- Oh, yeah … the actor of Novocaine, unfortunately, is able-bodied, Jack Quaid. But he has a neurological disorder in that movie where he’s not capable of feeling pain.

Mm-hmm … and he, the beginning of the movie sets up… It’s one of the better portrayals of invisible dis- disability that I’ve seen in a mainstream- Mm-hmm … film, Mm-hmm … because it really sets up the way every aspect of his life is impacted by his disability in his day-to-day life, in his dating, in his j- choice of job, his choice of car, the sorts of foods he’s able to eat.

So I- … think that one did a really good job.

[01:18:51] joe: Is that the one he had the genetic disorder, he feels no pain? Is that one? Yeah, right, which is a real thing where it’s… And it’s [01:19:00] serious, ’cause there’s… I think people think, “Oh, that’s awesome,” right? I mean,

the,

[01:19:03] mary: No, no, it’d be very

[01:19:04] joe: bring, I was gonna bring up the, kind of the other one trope that I don’t think we mentioned, was the superhero trope, right?

Where you go and then you become, so Daredevil where you get this special ability so your disability becomes this strength and this power and, your neuroplasticity takes over and you get echolocation. What’s that? There are people who are in the blind community who are, learning echo- human echolocation. And so that, that is a real thing. But it’s not to the extent, you’re not a

[01:19:35] grace: not to the

[01:19:36] joe: You’re not yeah,

[01:19:36] geo: so but- Right

[01:19:37] joe: you have this kind of there where you become this kind of superhero, but you go, “Oh, I can feel no pain.”

You can do things, but that’s also bad. If you-

[01:19:45] geo: Right.

Well-

[01:19:46] joe: in something hot- Yeah …or

things like

that. I

[01:19:48] geo: a reason. Yeah.

[01:19:49] joe: tells us to back off and to back away. But I think on the surface you go, “Wow, that’s super cool.” But then it’s like time travel.

It sounds cool, but it’s really not,

[01:19:59] grace: It’s really [01:20:00] not.

[01:20:00] joe: thing. This disorder is a real disorder.

[01:20:03] grace: disorder. So other horror movies that do a good job I mentioned up at the top Hush and A Quiet Place have deaf characters and deaf actors in them. Another one that recently came out that had a deaf character and a deaf actor was Primate.

And Primate I think was particularly fun because lot of practical effects and just, I’m just gonna be honest top to bottom it was just, it was just like a gory kinda stupid horror romp. Mm-hmm. And so it was like kinda… I don’t I shouldn’t say stupid, but it was like a gory horror romp, and I love seeing disability representation that’s done well in, in, in romp movies, I don’t know- Yeah … if everything has to be super serious all the time when we talk about disability. Amen, hear. Yes. I like the idea of disability representation being kinda campy too, I think that’s fun. Yeah. And then [01:21:00] also, up at the top I kinda mentioned Elisa in Shape of Water by Guillermo del Toro.

I thought that was pretty well done too. Unfortunately though, there aren’t that many horror movies that have disability- Yeah … Representation in them. There aren’t that many horror books with disability representation in them. Please

[01:21:18] joe: Do you have a, do you have any feeling of Silver Bullet? That was a Stephen King short, then it became a movie, about the… It’s the boy, he’s a teenager in a wheelchair. It’s like a werewolf movie. So it’s been a while since I’ve seen it, but yeah, Silver Bullet. And so he was the main character, and then he, kind of, he’s

[01:21:38] grace: he’s

a wheelchair user?

[01:21:40] joe: and he’s a wheelchair r- user, so he has to navigate that, and he’s trying to save his… I think it’s like a, all Stephen King stories in a small town, so save his small town

[01:21:49] grace: I assume it’s a small town in Maine, yeah.

[01:21:52] joe: Yeah. So no, Silver Bullet, that was I wanna say ’85-ish?

[01:21:57] geo: ’85-ish

[01:21:58] grace: Okay, I’ll have to look that one [01:22:00] up

[01:22:00] joe: Yeah

[01:22:00] mary: but can I’m going to I wanna bring up something about A Quiet Place, which I think is a good… The first one is a good movie. I, so I’ve been ar- If you’ve been around deaf people are, like, the loudest people on earth. Okay? Yes.

And I’m like, deaf people would be the first to be wiped out in A Quiet Place, unfortunately. I hate to say that, but I, because you can hear yourself.

[01:22:27] grace: I think- Yeah … I think how they got around that in the movie- yeah … eh, it’s been a couple years since I seen it, but if I remember properly, I think only one member of the family is deaf.

Sure, yeah. And so I think the, I think it’s a little bit handwavium but I think the hand-wavy explanation that they try to do- Sure … is that well, this family was able to survive because since there’s one deaf family member, they all

know ASL. Yeah. And I think that was kinda how they tried to hand-wave that one away.

Sure. But yeah, actually-

[01:22:58] geo: good point. Yeah

[01:22:59] grace: I, and you [01:23:00] s- I think that’s a, I think that’s true they tried to do that one.

[01:23:03] joe: Yeah. There was a few issues in there ’cause the noise, I think they break sometimes ’cause the level of sound sometimes it’s like just the smallest leaf drop into the ground and other times it’s a louder noise and it’s oh, nothing happens. And you’re waiting for the jump scare.

Like it’s kind of, they’re building that. So it is, a little fast and loose with their mechanics on that. But yeah, that, that

[01:23:26] grace: Yeah, I wanna tell all of- If I have to be perfectly honest- Yeah … it’s not my favorite movie, but the deaf character- It’s great … is played by a deaf actor and- Mm-hmm … They did a decent job on the, Yeah

[01:23:40] mary: I wanted to sp- I, I did wanna break in and say yeah, I thought that the the actor play- she was awesome.

It, Yeah,

[01:23:47] grace: she did a great job.

[01:23:48] mary: Yeah. Oh, yeah. But you know, Georgia and I were both working libraries and yeah, if you’ve ever been i- it, it’s like Hollywood, just because they maybe don’t hear doesn’t [01:24:00] mean that they don’t make any sound.

[01:24:01] joe: That’s right.

[01:24:02] mary: so anyways,

[01:24:04] geo: might

[01:24:04] joe: be aware they’re making sounds either, right? Because that’s hard

[01:24:07] geo: making sounds either, right? Because that’s how they- Well, they don’t- Yeah … they don’t know that their voice is so loud. Right. Yeah. Yeah

[01:24:12] joe: Yeah.

[01:24:13] grace: There’s very funny threads that you can read online of deaf people talking about what things they were surprised to learn made sounds. And so- Oh, really? … that, that can be a, that can be a fun one, a fun read.

[01:24:27] joe: Yeah.

[01:24:29] grace: grow up deaf and in deaf families, and then they learn that certain things make sound, that they didn’t

[01:24:35] geo: That’s funny.

[01:24:37] joe: Excellent. Well, yeah, so we’re here, probably at the end. So Grace, it was, great having you. Do you have any final thought? You can give some promo, tell us about your novel, your, you’re about to, at the time of recording you’re gonna be off to the Bram Stoker ceremonies and all that, right?

Or has that happened? Yeah, right. Yeah, that’s right. Yeah.

[01:24:57] grace: So at time of recording, [01:25:00] StokerCon is in a few short weeks. My debut novel, The Scald Crow, which as I mentioned up top, has a main character who’s experiencing undiagnosed chronic pain as well as some other symptoms and CPTSD that novel is currently a finalist for Superior Achievement in a First Novel, so, I guess- Ooh

we’ll see whether or

not I win. Google me to find out when this episode comes out. So I don’t know yet, but either way,

[01:25:28] joe: We’ll have an update on the show notes. We’ll put an update there, so we

won’t, uh… Yeah, we’ll have

[01:25:33] grace: so

that’s my big thing right now at time of recording. Also I have at time of recording, I don’t know the release date, but I have a fantasy comedy novella called The Star of Kilnaly that’s a short story, a novella told in short stories all about a folk hero, and every story is based on Irish folktales.

But there’s disability representation in that book as well. That’s coming out later in 2026. And then at time of [01:26:00] recording, this hasn’t been officially been announced yet, but it will be by the time the episode comes out, so I’m just saying it in early 2027, I am going to have a h- horror/sci-fi/comedy pick-a-path book, so that’s similar to the legally distinct Choose Your Own Adventure series, Ooh

coming out with a small press, and that also features dis- disabled representation. And that book is about a ali- that’s called Escapist Fiction, and it’s about a alien hive mind who overtakes people’s minds when they became overly involved in escapist media. And as you play through the book, you learn that the book you’re holding is itself trying to overtake you.

So, Ooh. Okay.

It’s very meta and very weird and very interactive. It- it’s more interactive than a standard pick-a-path novel. You’re prompted to spill your drink on the book and solve puzzles and stab the book and light the book on fire, and all sorts of wacky stuff. So, Awesome.

[01:26:59] mary: That’s[01:27:00]

[01:27:00] geo: You might need to pick up a few

copies.

[01:27:02] joe: copies.

Yeah, right. Yeah, buy

two.

[01:27:04] grace: Ideally by 5 or 6.

Not that I have any vested interest in that.

[01:27:09] joe: Yeah. Well, cool. Well, yeah, it was a fun episode. I learned a lot during research. I didn’t talk about everything. I usually do

[01:27:17] geo: do when we record- Mm-hmm

[01:27:17] joe: is good. But yeah, we’ll have to have you on again after some of the other projects come out and talk about

Pick

[01:27:24] geo: I think we, and I think we need to do one on comedy.

[01:27:27] joe: We should, yeah. I think it’d be good.

We need to get Nick here, right? ‘Cause that’s Nick’s bag,

[01:27:31] geo: so- Yeah

[01:27:31] joe: We’ll yeah. Yeah. But, that’s a

[01:27:34] grace: a

[01:27:35] joe: fun episode. You’ve got me, Joe.

[01:27:37] geo: Georgia. You’ve

[01:27:38] joe: We’ve got Georgia.

[01:27:40] mary: You got Mary

[01:27:41] joe: mary. We’ve got Mary, and we went down some disabled holes? The rabbit hole? I don’t know, yeah. Stay safe, stay curious. I’m not Nick, obviously, so please come back.

[01:27:58] geo: We might just have to, like-[01:28:00]

[01:28:00] joe: We might just have

[01:28:00] geo: We might have to just grab that part from another episode- Yeah,

maybe … and put it in there.

[01:28:05] joe: guys, what are you saying here? I

[01:28:07] geo: I don’t

know.

[01:28:08] joe: Stay

curious, stay safe. We do love y’all. Bye-bye. Bye.

Newsletter and Transcript of Rabbit Hole of Research Episode 85: The Mini: E.T. addendums, Science Holes and Media The Crew is Digging

Friendly alien mentions, Science Holes on extinction, coffee, superager neurogenesis, and whale calls that are faster than light or just Handwavium.

LISTEN TO EPISODE 85

Substack, Apple, Spotify, YouTube, Amazon

Episode 85 Transcript

In Episode 85: The Mini, Joe, Nick, and Georgia review the E.T. episode (1982 the greatest summer of sci-fi movies), and add a few more tidbits they forgot to mention during the recording (and it’s a Super-miss). Joe and Georgia talk about DragonCon and seeing alumni of the show out in the wild, and to Nick’s surprise, Season 4 is officially happening. LOL

In the Science Holes: Joe has four related topics on climate change and preserving the natural wonders before it’s too late. Georgia sorts her notes and settles on talking about SuperAger brains and neurogenesis (the crew gets sidetracked talking evolution). And Nick saves the craziest article for last, the idea that whale calls appear to outrun sound without breaking Einstein’s theory of special relativity. And this has Joe going down his own rabbit hole trying to explain temporal interference.

E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial

Listen now

Order the Touch of Noir 2027 Wall Calendar by Jim and Georgia—

12 months of all-original art by Jim and Georgia; pre-orders open now, with mailing expected in September

Words // Friends with Sara: Replay on YouTube

Jump to Joe’s Reading (But you should listen to all the amazing authors)

Check out what the RHR crew is creating:

Joe:

Named by the Guild Literary Complex as one of the 35 Writers to Watch!
Red Line: Chicago Horror Stories Anthology featuring a new story by Joe!
Joe’s Sci-fi physiological thriller Novel: Will You Still Love Me If I Become Someone Else?

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Stay curious, stay speculative, stay safe, and we’ll catch you in the next rabbit hole. Love Y’all!

Hang with the Crew:

Podcast Cross-Appearances:

Watch Joe on Joe Compton’s YouTube channel 21Grams
The RHR crew on Ben Tanzer’s This podcast will change your life: episode three hundred seventy-nine

Events & Conventions:

Joe:

Art show Ultrastructure: Science is Fun, with Carol Estes at Promise You Art House in Highland IN, October 10th, 10-3pm
Family Day: Seeing the Invisible World to Build a New One; in conjunction with the fall exhibition: teamLab: Everything Exists in Infinite Continuity, at the Smart Museum of Art In Hyde Park, IL, Nov 14th, 11-3pm
Art and Science lecture about Zombies: Dec 10th

Georgia:

The inaugural 4th Street Print Fest at Chesterton Art Center on Saturday, October 3, from 1–4

Upcoming Episodes

*The Mini will now be every other episode!

Episode 86: Disability in HorrorGuest: Grace Daly (Bram Stoker nominee)
Episode 88: CraziesRecorded at Reed’s Local with Melissa and Luc
Episode 90: Witch PleaseGuest: Bill Halliar (@skeletongue)

Leave a comment

What the Crew is Digging, Links, Resources, and Topics Mentioned in mini and/or full episode:

Links & Resources:

Love, Death + Robots — “Ice” (Season 2, Episode 2)
Watch on Netflix

Science Holes:

Joe’s Science Holes — Preservation, Extinction & the Race to Save What We Have

Moves to Preserve Cells and DNA of Imperiled SpeciesNew York Times
The U.S. government is working with Colossal Biosciences to collect and store DNA samples from every animal and plant protected under the Endangered Species Act. The crew agrees that it sounds great to create a genetic library of endangered species, but this shouldn’t replace on-the-ground conservation. This shouldn’t be a green light to drill, mine, and destroy habitat because we now have the DNA in bio-vault.
“The Library is Being Burned Before the Books Can Be Read”Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences
New estimates suggest there could be as many as 20 million insect species on Earth, but only about 1 million have ever been described. With climate change and habitat destruction driving more than 40% of known insect species toward extinction, scientists fear species are disappearing faster than we can discover them.
Kew Collection Goes DigitalNature
The Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew has digitized more than 7 million specimens of plants and fungi in their collection, and made them freely available online. And, as Georgia pointed out, artists are going to love this too. The full digital collection is available on Kew’s website and searchable through the Global Biodiversity Information Facility
How to Brew a Climate-Friendly CuppaNature
Nearly all of the 10 million tonnes of coffee consumed annually comes from two species: Arabica (Coffea arabica) very temperature sensitive, and Robusta (Coffea canephora), water-hungry and drought sensitive. Researchers are exploring and studying the genetics of wild coffee species for climate resilience. To aid in this effort the Ethiopian government is preserving natural genetic diversity at the Ethiopian Biodiversity Institute in Addis Ababa and at the Ethiopian Institute of Agricultural Research in Jimma. The article also discusses how chemistry is being explored; grind size, brewing temperature, and pressure to get desirable flavor profiles out of alternative species.
SuperAgers’ Secret Ingredient May Be the Growth of New Brain CellsScience Alerts
A new study out of the University of Illinois Chicago looked at brains of SuperAgers, people who have exceptional memory in old age, and they have roughly twice as many immature neurons as people of similar ages. The research suggests neurogenesis (growing new neurons) isn’t fixed at birth or adolescence, but environmental factors, lifestyle, and potentially therapeutic medicines could help boost it.
Whale Calls Can Appear to Outrun Sound Without Breaking Einstein’s Theory of Special RelativityDiscover Magazine
Researchers simulated whale calls near the ocean surface and found something wild, the signal’s energy peak appeared to arrive at speeds exceeding the normal speed of sound in water but the waves themselves didn’t accelerate. The overlapping echo shifted the signal’s most intense point forward in time, and making it look faster without actually transmitting information faster than light. The headline was a little clickbaity. But this didn’t stop Joe from going down this rabbit hole: this is what he was reading at end of episode:
1. Temporal Interference: Supersonic and Superluminal Energy and Speed of Information via Temporal Interference in a Dispersionless Environment
2. Sound Breaks the Light Barrier — Physics World, 2007

Science Terms

Neurogenesis — the growth and development of new neurons (brain cells). Once thought to stop in early childhood, research now suggests it continues into adulthood
SuperAgers — individuals who retain exceptional memory and cognitive function well into old age, now being studied for higher rates of neurogenesis
Temporal Interference — the phenomenon where multiple wave paths (a direct wave and its echo) overlap and recombine, shifting the signal’s energy peak forward in time and creating the appearance of faster-than-sound or faster-than-light travel
Superluminal Apparent Motion — the illusion that something is moving faster than light, caused by geometry or wave interference rather than actual faster-than-light travel
De-extinction — the process of using genetic engineering to revive or approximate extinct species, typically by editing the DNA of a closely related living species
BioVault — Colossal Biosciences’ genetic storage facility in Dubai, intended to house cell and tissue samples from 10,000+ species
Citizen Science — scientific research conducted in whole or in part by non-professional scientists, often through community data collection projects
Evolution — changes in inherited genetic material across generations within a population, typically driven by environmental pressures that make certain traits more advantageous

Media Holes: What the Crew is Digging:

Joe:

Storm Front (Dresden Files, Book 1of 18) — Jim Butcher 2000-current

Nick:

007: First Light — IO Interactive, 2025
Marvel’s Wolverine — PS5, 2026

The Witches of Eastwick (1987)
Mermaids (1990)

Georgia:

The Valley of Vengeful Ghosts — Kim Fu, 2026
The Great Alone — Kristin Hannah, 2018

“Stay curious, stay safe… Love Y’all!”

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Transcript

00:00:00 joe: Hey, welcome back to the Rabbit Hole Research down here in the basement studio. You’ve got me, Joe.

[00:00:11] Nick: You got a neck

[00:00:12] joe: You got Nick.

[00:00:14] Georgia: Georgia

[00:00:15] joe: You got Nick. And Georgia. We’ve got Georgia down here for the

[00:00:18] Georgia: mini

[00:00:19] Nick: A mini

[00:00:22] joe: mini episode. We had

[00:00:25] Nick: are we gonna start calling them the Mighty Minis?

[00:00:27] joe: The Mighty Minis? I think just a mini. We

had

[00:00:31] Nick: feel like,

[00:00:33] joe: What’d you

say?

[00:00:33] Nick: keep adding onto it till like till it start getting a bit self along our

name

[00:00:38] joe: at some point it becomes the Maxi. I don’t know. It’s,

[00:00:40] Georgia: a-

[00:00:41] Nick: Oh, the Maxi Mini. The Maxi Mini sounds pretty good.

[00:00:45] joe: Yes. I don’t know.

[00:00:47] Georgia: and then can we have, a logo? Like, a mascot for the minis?

[00:00:52] joe: Sure.

[00:00:53] Georgia: I think because that remind me of some other cartoon or something, like a really strong [00:01:00] mouse.

[00:01:01] joe: Mighty Mouse. Yeah.

[00:01:02] Nick: Yeah, mighty

[00:01:03] joe: mighty

Mouse. So

[00:01:04] Georgia: that could be good for the mini.

[00:01:06] joe: I guess, or, but a real strong rabbit.

[00:01:08] Georgia: I guess Minnie Mouse. That’s too close to Minnie Mouse. Oh, never mind.

[00:01:13] joe: Yep. So last episode talked about E.T. We had Chris Guzman, the boxing glove artist on, so that was a really lively conversation.

[00:01:27] Nick: Oh, yeah. That was a really good one. I thought it was funny.

[00:01:30] joe: It was funny

[00:01:32] Nick: I think we all had a really good time with that this episode

[00:01:35] joe: The

[00:01:35] Georgia: the

[00:01:35] joe: listeners were somewhat split. Got some comments

about my hot take and my controversial views about the movie ET but some that, you know, were

[00:01:45] Nick: As long As people only went after you, I’m okay with this.

[00:01:49] joe: but we had… I did get a few email comments that they agreed with my take. So that’s

[00:01:56] Georgia: rather talk about the ones where they disagree with you.

[00:01:59] Nick: No. I’m [00:02:00] saying that, like, as long as they were only going after you for these takes,

then I’m okay. I’m pretty sure you and I share the same views about ET.

Send Joe the angry messages

[00:02:11] Georgia: No I can

[00:02:13] joe: it. I can take it.

[00:02:15] Georgia: So Maybe- Okay …you could give an example of somebody that disagreed with you

[00:02:21] joe: go listen to the episode. You’ll hear several people disagree with me, so, I was gonna say friendly aliens. We did talk, we touched on friendly aliens, and I felt listening to the episode, I felt a little embarrassed that we didn’t probably name the most famous of all the friendly aliens, and that’s Superman.

[00:02:41] Georgia: He’s pretty

friendly. He’s

[00:02:43] joe: pretty friendly.

And he’s pretty friendly, and he’s a alien, so he’s…

[00:02:45] Georgia: he’s kind of…

[00:02:46] joe: We didn’t have that one. And then you know, our good friend Jeff Goldblum, we didn’t mention Earth Girls Are Easy. They were a bunch of aliens. He got the rabbit hole of

[00:02:54] Nick: was Jeff

Goldblum.

[00:02:55] joe: that’s Jeff Goldblum. Yep, so

[00:02:57] Nick: I forgot about that

[00:02:58] joe: season one award [00:03:00] winner.

Rabbit hole of research

[00:03:02] Nick: Well, there was an unofficial award. No one voted on this

[00:03:09] Georgia: Oh.

[00:03:09] joe: And there was a vote. We had a discussion about it, and Jeff Goldblum came out on top. The other one was refugee aliens. We had talked about Alien Nation, but the other one at, that had a lot of political commentary was Brother From Another Planet, and that was one that I wanted to mention in there, throw that in as a really good movie with a, a friendly refugee alien.

That was kind of on the run, so- Wow.

[00:03:32] Georgia: we talked about V,

[00:03:34] joe: We talked about V. I mean, they’re talking about V, yeah, and but they weren’t friendly.

[00:03:39] Georgia: They’re

[00:03:40] joe: like, They Live.

[00:03:41] Georgia: Yeah.

[00:03:42] joe: Yeah. They were in disguise, a takeover. Like, they were like lizard things.

[00:03:47] Georgia: Some friendly and some weren’t?

[00:03:49] joe: I mean, I don’t know. They were here to take over Earth. I don’t know what they’re-

[00:03:54] Georgia: was that the s- same one where, the alien became a cop? And like [00:04:00] the alien was a cop, and he had a part-

[00:04:02] joe: was Alien Nation . Alien Nation Oh, that was

[00:04:04] Georgia: Alien Nation.

[00:04:05] joe: No, V had the lizard. I’m getting it confused. They had the lizard.

[00:04:07] Georgia: No, he had the lizard- I’m getting it confused … he had the lizard. But we did talk about V quite a bit on here- Yeah

[00:04:09] joe: Folks, we did talk about V quite a bit on the episode.

Yeah, so. But yeah,

[00:04:12] Georgia: so.

[00:04:13] joe: no, that was a alien invasion, so yeah.

[00:04:18] Nick: KITT

[00:04:19] joe: So that’s all I had from the touch on there.

[00:04:22] Nick: Yeah I think this was just a fun episode.

[00:04:25] joe: Yeah, so just wanna touch on a few things. We got some events coming up. I’ll be doing a art show, Ultrastructure: Science is Fun with Carol Estes at the Promise You Art House in Highland, Indiana, October 10th, 11 to 3 PM.

So folks can come out there.

And then Georgia has an event coming up, the inaugural Fourth Street Print Fest at the Chesterton Art Center, Saturday, October 3rd, from 1 to 4 PM. Put those in the show notes. I don’t know why I did that in that order, ’cause really the 3rd and

[00:04:58] Georgia: Comes first, [00:05:00] but yeah, that’s

okay

but those are my

[00:05:01] joe: here. I have that, so. And then there’s a couple, an event in November and one in December that I’ll be doing, and I’ll put those in, and we’ll… as we get closer, I’ll make sure to highlight those events. But yeah, come on out. We’ll be there. You guys can say hi and see the cool stuff we’re up to in person, which is always nice.

And if you were down in Atlanta, Georgia, a couple weeks ago, we were down in Dragon Con en-enjoying that, the big party of fellow nerds and comic fans and science fiction

[00:05:34] Nick: Yeah. And

didn’t you guys run into some past guests?

[00:05:38] Georgia: We did, yep. So Davis and-

Roland

[00:05:41] joe: yep. Yeah. Saw both of them.

[00:05:44] Georgia: oh, no,

I’m thinking- Kevin Compton

I’m thinking, and we also went to the Printers Row Lit Fest, and we saw Ben Tanzer.

[00:05:51] joe: we saw Ben Tanzer. We did. Yes, that’s

[00:05:52] Georgia: we saw

[00:05:53] joe: Yep

The finance,

[00:05:57] Georgia: Amran Amran yes. Yep, So,[00:06:00]

So that was pretty cool, too.

[00:06:02] joe: No, that was really cool.

[00:06:03] Nick: He hasn’t been getting around.

[00:06:05] Georgia: there’s just, like, Rabbit Hole Research guests everywhere. Rabbit Hole Research alum, like- Yeah,

[00:06:08] joe: the Rabbit Hole Research alum, it’s pretty nice to see folks out there in the wild

[00:06:13] Georgia: And then Joe, he’s working on some new guests that we connected with.

[00:06:18] joe: And Joe, he’s working on the, some new guests that we connected with. Trying to get… Yep, that’s right, Con. So that season four is starting to shape up, . Should be a good season. I’m look- I’m excited.

[00:06:24] Georgia: excited

[00:06:25] Nick: W- were we renewed for season four? When did I get this message?

[00:06:28] joe: We

[00:06:29] Nick: Oh, wow.

[00:06:30] joe: yeah.

[00:06:30] Georgia: got

renewed.

[00:06:31] joe: while ago. We got- Yeah.

[00:06:34] Georgia: we got our zero

[00:06:35] joe: We got, right, we got our budget approved. We’re locked and loaded. We’re going.

[00:06:42] Georgia: loaded. We’re

[00:06:43] joe: They can’t turn us… They can’t turn our mics off. They tried to take our power, but we’re here. We, we got… We now got solar power.

The basement studio is full steam ahead.

[00:06:53] Nick: It’s never going dark? Is that what we’re trying to never going dark. That’s right. So, [00:07:00] yeah. All right. Anything else? We can move on to our next segment, the Science Holes,

yeah.

[00:07:08] joe: something else?

[00:07:08] Georgia: you got something else?

[00:07:09] Nick: no I think we’re good to move on. Georgia, you got anything else?

[00:07:14] Georgia: No.

[00:07:15] joe: No. Okay. Then we’re off to the science holes. Going down the science holes.

science holes. Dun,

[00:07:25] Nick: that wasn’t my favorite. No.

[00:07:27] joe: That

[00:07:29] Georgia: Something

[00:07:30] joe: one’s my favorite now. Well, I mean, that’s all right. It’s okay

[00:07:30] Nick: I’m sorry, buddy.

[00:07:31] joe: So

[00:07:32] Nick: to normally bunch up and agree with you, but yeah, this one wasn’t nice.

[00:07:36] joe: so I have four, but they’re all quick hitters they’re all in the same kind of topic

[00:07:44] Georgia: So they’re all, like, in the same hole?

[00:07:46] joe: They’re all in the same hole. I mean, little branch holes or whatever. I don’t know. That’s weird. Yes, they’re

[00:07:51] Nick: Yeah, I don’t know where we’re going

[00:07:52] joe: I know, I don’t either. They’re all of similar nature of the research and science and so I…

But I thought they were all [00:08:00] interesting. And I’ll just go over it quickly as I think both of y’all have maybe something, so I’ll just go over it. We talked about Colossal Biosciences. You you remember that company? They’re a private company, and they are trying to revive extinct animals.

The

[00:08:14] Nick: Oh yeah, I do remember that one. We’ve brought that one up a few

times, haven’t we?

[00:08:18] joe: yep. So they so they were here working with the government to

collect dNA of plants and animals that are protected under the Endangered Species Act. So about 2,300 listings worldwide. And so they wanna collect their DNA so that if they happen to go extinct, then they would be-

[00:08:43] Georgia: It’s Like the seed able to bring it

back … it’s like the seed seed archive. archive or whatever like that. Something like that. I don’t really know.

[00:08:48] joe: This is cool, but, some people are raising the red flag a little bit and saying that this could erode support for real on the ground conservation efforts because if you go, “Well, we collected her [00:09:00] DNA and-” Oh, we have the DNA.

Yeah,

[00:09:00] Georgia: we can just whip up some more. “… we

[00:09:02] joe: We can drill and mine and

[00:09:04] Georgia: That won’t be, that won’t be hard. So

[00:09:06] joe: So destroy their habitat while you’re doing. So, yay, this is great, but then, , not so much. And so, and then this company, they’re not getting any government money.

They just get access to the genetic material for the next five years, and they can do whatever they want with it and mine it. So a little bit… It’s interesting, this kind of thing that they’re trying to do and, you know, there’s even some controversy. Do they really bring back the species? ’cause they’re using gene editing of a closely related modern species and then adding in genes from the extinct animal species.

So, you know, it’s a little-

[00:09:41] Georgia: I think it’s better- Yeah … let’s just kind of help

[00:09:46] joe: right. What

[00:09:47] Georgia: already here.

[00:09:48] joe: right. No, I think that’s it. So, yeah, and then that this company, they also made a partnership with the United Arab Emirate to build what they call is the BioVault in Dubai which will have about [00:10:00] 10,000 different specie cell and tissue samples.

So yeah, so that’s … They’re making moves in this area to collect DNA and things like that. So

[00:10:12] Nick: that’s, I think that’s pretty smart. That way

[00:10:13] joe: Yeah. I mean,

[00:10:14] Nick: it tries to preserve,

[00:10:16] joe: think

[00:10:17] Georgia: it’s smart to- Yeah … yeah. Like

[00:10:18] joe: I said, I think, but you gotta keep an eye on that we’re not doing that instead of trying to preserve what we have now, right? So I think do, do both potentially.

[00:10:29] Georgia: not destroy what we have

now.

[00:10:31] joe: Yep,

[00:10:31] Georgia: So- Do no harm, which I don’t think that’s- Oh,

[00:10:37] joe: was another paper and it had this a catchy line in it.

I liked it. The, “the library is being burned before the books can be read.” And this here was talking about doing these surveys how many different insect species are on Earth, and they’re saying there could be as many as 20 million species. But we’ve only probably identified about a [00:11:00] million of these species has been described, and so there’s a big gap.

But with climate change, kind of destruction of habitat something like 40% of known insect species are threatened with extinction. So they fear that the insect species are disappearing faster than we can discover them, and that kind of… That’s that, that line there. So you have this, this, one group, they’re trying to preserve DNA of the kind of things that we know about and destroying…

This is talking about things we have no clue about that exists out in these habitats that we’re now destroying. So really interesting

On those two notes. And then the The Royal Botanical Gardens, Kew or K-E-W, I think that’s Kew.

[00:11:45] Nick: That’s cute

[00:11:46] Georgia: Yeah.

[00:11:46] joe: I think that’s Kew. Yeah. That’s, that is cute.

No. But they released, they have more than seven million species, one of the world’s largest collections of plant and fungi, and they’ve digitized their collection. So you can [00:12:00] go and look up different species, what they have, what… You know, do they have tissue sample? Do they have images? Do they have DNA?

And so one of the ideas is that now they could… Researchers can use AI to help analyze this kind of digital archive and images and go through, and everything from handwritten notes that are there to old labels, trying to track kind of changes over time.

So really interesting trying to open up this resource so that more people and researchers can have access to it, and we can use modern tools to help analyze or try to uncover different things.

[00:12:37] Georgia: would that be open for other uses? Like I can see like maybe artists would wanna use some of these images for-

Yeah … you know what I mean?

[00:12:46] joe: No. You can go… I’ll put the links on to the, to the site. You can go on, you can do searches and different… See what they have. No, it’s neat that they did that, so. And that, that reminds me of

[00:12:57] Georgia: the whole bigger, and I don’t know if this [00:13:00] falls into this, ’cause I don’t think it does, but citizen, and that’s something we haven’t talked a lot about, which I think would be a good thing to talk about sometime, is more about citizen science. And there’s all

[00:13:13] Nick: can you go into what citizen science is there, Georgia?

[00:13:15] Georgia: Y- yeah. So there’s all these different projects that people that are not necessarily with a science background can help collect data. And and I know that there’s a group … Oh, shoot. think of the- I’m trying to remember the name of it. But I was looking at it because s- li- some libraries have partnered with this organization to try to help people, connect with these different projects.

And it could be something as, something like what bird species do you see in your backyard? So it tries to m- make it very much into, like, a just in your neighborhood, what’s, [00:14:00] what are these different things? There’s lots of different projects, and I think that’s really cool.

[00:14:05] joe: It is.

[00:14:05] Nick: Yeah, that’s really cool. I didn’t know about this

[00:14:07] joe: about this. Yeah, no, that’s something. I was gonna say birders, I was gonna mention that they do it a lot.

But I know somebody, maybe we… A potential guest in season four, that

[00:14:16] Georgia: they can talk about these-

[00:14:18] joe: started out

as a, citizen scientist, and now got really passionate and trying to go back to school and get their degree

[00:14:25] Georgia: awesome. Yeah,

so- That would be a great- Yeah …

I think that would be a great episode- We’ll reach

[00:14:29] joe: I’ll reach out and tell them. Because

[00:14:30] Georgia: it really does show science is everywhere, and everyone can participate

[00:14:37] joe: that they’re, what they’re looking at and hopefully we’ll have them on, but they actually discovered a couple new species of I think they’re looking at rotifers, if memory serves me correct. They started looking, collecting samples of freshwater, of different , parks and things like that, just like what … Surveying what’s in the water with a microscope, just a light microscope- Oh, great that people have used probably in high school and in different classes,

[00:14:59] Georgia: [00:15:00] science classes, so. Yeah, no, that’s- And then that

[00:15:01] joe: that built on their

[00:15:02] Georgia: That’s so interesting.

Anyway,

[00:15:04] joe: But yeah, so really cool. And the last one probably for Nick, it was how to brew a climate friendly cup of Joe.

And so o- one of the things is that cli- climate change is starting to affect the growing patterns of different, the coffee plants. And so

About 10 million tons of coffee beans that are consumed around the world, kind of two I guess two different, Species Cafe Canephora Robusta and a more delicate tasting Cafe Abrica.

And so unfortunately the A-A-Abrica, am I saying that right? A-R-A-B-I-C-A, Arabica. Yep, there. So Arabica suffers or dies when temperature rise just a few degrees and Robusta requires massive amounts of water and its yield drops drastically in a drought. So you can see how climate change [00:16:00] could affect both of those.

So in the Ethiopian government, they have been trying to establish kind of genetic diversity ’cause there’s other species of coffee that aren’t, you know, for agriculturally important. So can you go to those species and look for genetic differences that would give advantages and then you can use genetic engineering

[00:16:20] Georgia: That would grow better in a drought

to breed for

[00:16:22] joe: Yes. Yep, yep. So that was kind of– And there’s about 134 known wild coffee species and a few are now starting to be grown for their coffee resilience, and so that was really cool. And this article then also went into how potentially you can use chemistry, so even though the the coffee plant, which then its growing conditions affects the taste and everything downstream, can you use chemistry then to alter the coffee plants and get a desirable product from other species?

And so kind of the grind size for espresso, brewing temperature, the pressure that’s used during the [00:17:00] brewing. It was a nice article about both aspects: A, trying to modify and save the species that we know and love, but then also how do you use these other species to get similar flavor profiles and things out of it?

Yeah, so really cool. So I’ll put those links in there, but just kind of-

[00:17:18] Nick: If you wouldn’t mind sending me that too, that way

I I want to read more

[00:17:22] Georgia: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:22] joe: Yep, yep. I’ll send you that

[00:17:24] Nick: that sounds right up my alley.

[00:17:25] joe: Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I thought you would get a kick out of it and correct my pronunciation, so that’s very nice. Yeah, it was cool. It’s much longer.

I mean, obviously I’m just giving a little teaser recap, but yeah, I’ll throw the links in there and the papers and keep that where talking about it. So yeah, that’s what I had. They were all, like I said, all related, this climate change, , habitat destruction or trying to save and preserve what we have,

[00:17:53] Nick: Oh, 100%. Like, it all goes into it, and, it will affect the flavor of the coffee no matter [00:18:00] what. Like, everything– It’s a very finicky, Plant.

[00:18:04] joe: Yeah. No, but that’s what… Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:18:07] Nick: e-e-every little bit of it goes into it.

[00:18:11] Georgia: It

[00:18:11] Nick: Like From one season to the next, you can order the same bean and it will be different. I wonder if it would be more consistent with being modified

[00:18:24] joe: Right, right, right

[00:18:26] Georgia: But then you get like, you’re like, ooh, the red flags of genetic modification. you know what I mean? Genetically modified food and things like that. Yeah, which I

[00:18:39] joe: I just saw that the European Union loosened some of its regulation on genetically modified foods and their use and creation, so that’s really interesting. And catching up with the science, I think, on that, so. Mm-hmm. That’s a different- Well, it

[00:18:55] Georgia: me think of I’ve always been fascinated with how [00:19:00] many different species of apples there are.

Mm. Mm-hmm

And I bet a lot of them have gone as- extinct, speaking of going extinct and wanting to save. If only we had all those seeds of all those different apples, I think quite a few have gone extinct,

[00:19:18] joe: quite a few have gone extinct, right, Joe?

They probably have, yeah. No, they have, I know in New York there’s a, a bunch of, I think it was New York, where they have orchards that they grow a lot of species that we don’t eat or consume at market, but they’re growing them to preserve it. So

[00:19:35] Georgia: that’s good. Yeah. Have them

[00:19:36] joe: and then go through and then you find different different species you can cross with common apples to get different flavor profiles and things like that.

So, yeah, there’s a lot of efforts to maintain that. We grow in our garden a lot of heirloom plants, and that’s the thing. You can save the plants by eating them, right? ‘Cause if you grow them you grow the fruit, you get the seed, you eat it, you eat the fruit.

It’s one of the few [00:20:00] conservation methods that you go, “We can eat it to save it,” right? ‘Cause that’s, if you grow it

[00:20:06] Georgia: it up, you save the seeds. Well, you can save the

[00:20:07] joe: You can save the seeds. So that’s what I mean, right. So you, if you grow it up- Yeah … You’re growing it to save it, to eat it. Yeah. So it’s kind of this

[00:20:12] Georgia: you can a- Right …

save the seeds and grow them.

[00:20:14] joe: the seeds- Right … and grow them. Right

[00:20:16] Georgia: In your

Yeah.

[00:20:17] joe: what I’m saying.

[00:20:17] Georgia: I’m just saying if you eat everything and you eat

[00:20:19] joe: don’t eat every- I mean, you don’t eat the seeds. You shouldn’t, I mean, it’s like- Well, you eat the seeds of the tomatoes You don’t have to. You can cut… You don’t have to eat the whole thing.

I mean, they grow a lot of tomatoes.

[00:20:30] Nick: Georgia, no forcing you to eat every bit of it

[00:20:33] joe: can, you could hold a few back, man.

[00:20:36] Georgia: just saying- I haven’t been really super conscious of doing the

[00:20:41] joe: I’m saying I haven’t been

[00:20:41] Georgia: saving part of

[00:20:42] joe: and that’s ’cause we usually

[00:20:43] Georgia: think that’s something that we need to do, but it’s like one of those things,

[00:20:47] joe: something that we need to do, but it’s like one of those things, like-

[00:20:48] Georgia: that falls through?

Well, we

[00:20:49] joe: That falls through the, we also, it’s, we support Seed Savers that act- actively grow and have- They

[00:20:54] Georgia: have- They really do save-

[00:20:55] joe: do save the seeds and then we buy them from them. But we could save our own [00:21:00] heirloom seeds, and that’s, but that’s a different discussion, heirloom versus hybrid and all that, so.

Yeah. And I think both

[00:21:06] Georgia: Sorry. We’re going down a lot

[00:21:08] joe: we went down different holes now, but that’s, that’ll be another fun plant genetic-

[00:21:13] Georgia: …Engineering … expanding this whole Yeah, so yeah. yes

Okay. Well, Nick, did you wanna go or do you want me to go, or?

[00:21:21] Nick: You can go, Georgia

[00:21:23] Georgia: All right. Well, I’m not very organized on the Science Holes. My main way of organizing my thoughts is just to text myself things that I see, and I just text it to myself, and then I put in the next line, “Science Holes.”

Then I just scroll through my texts, and then I find my Science Holes. It’s not very, but I did see, and a lot of the stuff I see, like,

like a lot of people, is just kind of scrolling through social media and then something catches my eye. I’m like, “Oh, that’s interesting.” [00:22:00] Then I try to look it up. So this was something that I saw about

a new study where they were actually looking at human brains.

A lot of times in the past it’s been, like rodent brains and other animal brains, and this, this study actually studied human brains, and it was this here in the Chicago area, in North Northwestern. The title of this article, which is in Science Alert, it’s called SuperAgers: SuperAgers’

Secret Ingredient May Be the Growth of New Brain Cells.

And I guess there’s always been this kind of question of, do we get new brain cells? And from this study and other things, it says, “Not only do our brains appear to generate new neurons into adulthood, but those of SuperAgers contain far more [00:23:00] brain cells in development than those of healthy peers, new research has found.”

So that it was a study of 38 adult human brains and these are called SuperAgers, which I’d love to become one of those. People who retain exceptional memory as they age have roughly twice as many immature neurons as their peers who age more typically. So meaning they’re making new brains, brain cells.

[00:23:33] Nick: Interesting

[00:23:35] Georgia: And that people with Alzheimer’s disease show a marked reduction in neurogenesis compared to a normal baseline. So, they said … And I’m sorry, I’ve already gotta correct myself. This was the University of Illinois in Chicago, not Northwestern. Sorry about that. “This is a big step forward in understanding how the [00:24:00] human brain processes cognition, forms memory, and ages.”

That’s what one of the neuroscientists said. And it’s important in determining why some brains age more healthy and it can hopefully lead to therapeutic medicines and other ways to prevent Alzheimer’s. And so I think yeah, I think it was really interesting.

[00:24:27] joe: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That sounds really cool.

[00:24:29] Nick: really

[00:24:30] joe: Yeah, I know for a long time the idea was the brain you’re born with, that, that’s, essentially

[00:24:36] Georgia: that’s

[00:24:36] joe: it. You don’t really grow any new brain cells- Right

or it’s not very plastic. And then I think that was challenged more recently,

[00:24:43] Georgia: Right. And that’s exactly, Yeah,

[00:24:46] joe: And then I think it went back and forth and I think there was other studies that said, no, it stops at adolescence . But I think now the research is showing that there is still active growth and are there ways to stimulate that growth, and can you develop [00:25:00] drugs and pharmaceuticals to help, , bolster that or encourage it.

[00:25:04] Georgia: Right. Like it says, “

Further research,” the team says, “could help identify f- therapeutic ways of boosting neurogen- genesis and resilience as well as potential environmental and lifestyle factors that may affect the brain’s aging.” So it’s exciting that it’s saying that it’s not fixed and doomed to decline.

Mm-hmm. You know, that you could be

[00:25:30] joe: growing

[00:25:30] Georgia: brain cells.

[00:25:31] joe: That’s right. right. I like the idea of that. So

Yeah.

[00:25:37] Nick: You know, that makes you wonder if it’s part of like the next step of evolution for us.

[00:25:42] joe: Well, not evolution

[00:25:43] Nick: Why not? Mutants do it

[00:25:46] Georgia: we’re already

[00:25:47] joe: doing it. It’s not like we’re evolving. I guess it was one of these things that were just misunderstood, right?

[00:25:54] Georgia: that was just misunderstood, right? But I think what I, and this is… But is it something that [00:26:00] could turn into something more like evolution in the sense if we understood how to make it happen more, and then we would evolve to make brains

[00:26:10] joe: No I mean, evolution

[00:26:11] Georgia: what I’m saying? …

[00:26:12] joe: Humans

is, are genetic changes that then persists, right? So you have

[00:26:17] Georgia: Like a mutation,

[00:26:18] joe: You have a mutation which causes genetic change that then becomes stable in a population, and generally its phenotype is expressed under pressure. And so, under pressure, it causes this new genetic mutation to be advantageous, and then a more advantageous trait then persists in the population, and then you get kind of a evolution event in that, in kind of simple terms.

I mean, that’s the- Right … simple way to explain it. So this case here is kind of like not understanding the function of the cells in the brain. And so these papers are now explaining what the function is, not necessarily that we’ve gained function. It’s just, it’s never been really understood [00:27:00] properly how brain cells grow and mature through our lives.

But- Right?

[00:27:06] Georgia: I think that a lot of it is saying that it only… It seems to only be hap- not only be happening, but it seems like these superagers

[00:27:15] joe: SuperAgers

[00:27:16] Georgia: are the people that they’re finding this in, not everyone.

[00:27:21] Nick: way I see it is.

[00:27:22] joe: I mean, we’re not, we’re, we have genetic differences, right? So that’s just kind of, we’re not… So in there, I think that’s always the thing that, that we have.

Some pe- I mean, some people are tall, some people are short, and so those are just genetic differences in the population. And so it’s just understanding why is someone tall and why is someone short? And then can you go in and go, “These are the genes that control height.” And so can you now put those genes or can you turn on those genes in a person who’s short?

And I think that’s the same thing, you know, that’s kind of the thing that, that this is happening. So, these people here that, that get old and are healthy [00:28:00] mentally, what’s different about their brains and their cell neurogenesis

[00:28:04] Georgia: neurogenesis

[00:28:05] joe: versus someone who gets disease challenged Alzheimer’s or something like that.

And you’re saying, “Oh, they’re missing these, the genes,” or, “This gene is turned off,” or, “It’s a different structure than these people.” Same thing with breast cancer. You know, there, there are people are more susceptible to breast cancer because they have certain mut- mutations in certain genes.

And so that’s something we’ve learned. And then can you go and correct that in people or identify it early enough that you can now you can remove the breast so that they don’t develop tumors and things like that, that could harm them. So you have these… So that’s kind of, this is where we’re at here.

Right. So it’s not necessarily- It is … an evolutionary event. It is- It’s

[00:28:43] Georgia: is- … kind of figuring out- … understanding it better. Right. But I think a lot of the hope is, how can we make that- Even more prevalent and having more people have healthy- Right …

brains and

[00:28:56] joe: …and then you get into, so let’s say that, I mean, this is where you get into [00:29:00] the, the, the sci-fi arena a little bit.

[00:29:03] Georgia: Like, if you have enough money, you can

[00:29:05] joe: Exactly. Yes. I want this. You

[00:29:06] Georgia: genes on ’cause I want that.” Right, yes. Yeah.

[00:29:09] joe: get into the GATTACA thing where, “I wanna be tall ’cause I want those genes, and I wanna have a SuperAger brain.” Okay, that’s gonna be, you know- Right … $50 million and, you know,

[00:29:19] Georgia: But I do think- … I do think this is really talking about this on very simple terms. But the one thing they talk about brain and and keeping your brain healthy is always trying to do new things, novel things, and making those connections that you haven’t made before.

Mm-hmm. And I think this goes right into this, saying, well, you can be making new brain cells new connections

and even when you’re older. Right. Do you know what I’m saying? So it does have a very practical thing. Like, think about, oh, I’m not just, oh, I’m getting old, and that’s it. No. Right. You know, it’s something that can, [00:30:00] yeah.

Oh,

[00:30:01] joe: it was the same

[00:30:01] Nick: what I think you can even do m-many of them, things that are like taking a different route home or y- just doing little things.

[00:30:11] Georgia: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:12] Nick: Doing a puzzle, that helps your brain

[00:30:13] Georgia: Listening to

[00:30:14] joe: Rabbit Hole of Research I’m sure helps.

[00:30:18] Georgia: I

[00:30:18] Nick: Unless it’s me talking a lot, then that’s, that lowers your brain count

[00:30:22] Georgia: But

[00:30:23] joe: No, yeah, no, I think, right, we learn more. And I was gonna say, I know for a while they, like, didn’t think your tendons would repair or grow actively. So if you had an Achilles tear, that was it, They didn’t think it would regrow. And then that, that research changed sports medicine, things like that.

It was like well we can, it will regrow and this is how we can

[00:30:41] Georgia: help And I’m sure it was like those, those, milli- million, billion-dollar athletes- Yeah … “Oh, we gotta figure out how

to make this work,”

[00:30:50] joe: talking to someone there, ’cause they’re gonna get their knee replacement and it, that’s kind of that technology.

And I said, “Yeah, you could thank sports medicine,” like that, all that [00:31:00] money that goes in, you know, repairing the athlete’s ligaments, their knees their heels, their ankles, their cal- whatever. All the lower body kind of structure that you go in now and it’s, “Oh, this is pretty routine,” pop.

And that’s because that’s that effect that,

[00:31:15] Georgia: you know-

Like, we gotta get ’em back out there on the field playing

Interesting.

Yeah. So that’s something sport,

[00:31:21] joe: sports has, contributed I guess.

[00:31:24] Georgia: Right. Anyway, okay. That was all I had.

[00:31:27] joe: that’s all I had. Yeah. No, that’s cool. And you got the, the evolutionary, the thing, Nick? Did I explain that well enough or-

[00:31:33] Nick: Yeah

[00:31:33] joe: Okay. Yeah. Cool. All right.

[00:31:36] Nick: I think so

[00:31:37] joe: Yeah, if people have questions,

[00:31:38] Georgia: I do think it’s, it is confusing.

[00:31:40] joe: I think we sh- we probably will do an episode. I don’t know, with season four.

And we haven’t made the full

[00:31:45] Georgia: I think evolution would be an awesome topic.

[00:31:49] joe: topic.

[00:31:49] Georgia: Because also, I think it’s also a matter of language. Like we talked about

before when we talked about what does it mean to look at something small.

Yeah. [00:32:00] I mean, like, ’cause I feel like we use the word evolve a lot. Like, I’m gonna evolve my thinking about this, or… And but yet we’re not taking this really pure, what does evolution mean,

[00:32:14] joe: yep. Yeah, it’s that, like I said, it’s that kind of population changing over generations through shifts in their, inherited genetic material.

I think that would sum it up. That’s what’s happening with evolution, and usually under pressure s- by something that forces that trait. ‘Cause that’s your… Well, we’re gonna go down this- Yeah … this rabbit hole like, no, but yeah. That’s fine. Yeah,

[00:32:35] Georgia: do- Because I just thought of more interesting things about is it

[00:32:40] joe: advantagious, advantageous

[00:32:41] Georgia: advantag- advantageous for a population, for their aging community to keep going, or is it more advantageous to get rid of those old people,

and you know what I’m saying? So

[00:32:54] joe: if they’ve already reproduced, then it’s too late. So you would have to… Right? [00:33:00] Because if you already passed your genes on, then it doesn’t matter.

You can- Then there’s no genetics … you can

[00:33:03] Georgia: Right. Then it

[00:33:04] joe: old or, right. You can be old or whatever age because you’ve already contributed your inherited material. Then it’s, then it’s- Yes. Now

[00:33:11] Georgia: so let’s not

[00:33:11] joe: You’re right, right. It’s like now… So you get right to GATTACA real fast, a Brave New World. It’s how do we get rid of, how do we make these changes?

But other questions open up, but yeah let’s put a pin in it. Folks, write in if you got some other questions or we’re setting up topics, so, I think it’ll be a fun one to talk about, evolution, and then gene editing. I think those two go hand-in-hand, so maybe we’ll have to do a couple, find a couple folks to come in and chat about that.

So coolio.

[00:33:38] Nick: be a really funny conversation

[00:33:39] Georgia: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:33:41] joe: mm-hmm. So

[00:33:42] Georgia: Nick, do you have any science holes? Or hole?

[00:33:46] Nick: I did. I did have one. My science hole is it’s pretty short, but, Apparently, whale calls can outrun sound without breaking Einstein’s theory of special relativity. So yeah, they were [00:34:00] going on about, whales’ calls are a little bit more than they appear. There was a simulation that researchers set the normal sound of speed of sound in water at approximately four thousand nine hundred feet, one thousand five hundred meters per second. And it after interference reshaped the two test signals. But what it said there, peaks arrived at times corresponding to apparent speeds of about five thousand five hundred and sixty feet or one thousand six hundred and ninety-four point five meters. And but the waves themselves did not accelerate.

Their overlapping shifted the signal’s most intense point, producing a supersonic calculation. So it’s, it seemed like it might be faster [00:35:00] than Light itself. And that, that is something wild to think that, oh, I know we’ve brought up the speed of light quite a few times, but I’m wondering if this would end up Getting information from, like, space to be faster,

you know?

[00:35:19] joe: so I want to say that it really didn’t, like I said in this article it really didn’t, it didn’t break that, right? So it’s not … Information isn’t traveling faster than the speed of light, which is the important part there, and kind of the idea here

[00:35:36] Georgia: is the sound is? So

[00:35:37] joe: is- So it’s, it’s-

[00:35:39] Georgia: is information

[00:35:40] joe: It’s not just information

right. Well, it doesn’t, not necessarily, right? So you have it,

[00:35:44] Nick: what I’m saying is I think it opens a potential for, you know, different technologies

[00:35:50] joe: Yeah. I think ’cause the information is what’s important there, and so the idea, the way I read it, and I’m, [00:36:00] I am not a physicist by any means, so I wanna say that kind of is at the peak. So the wave, if you… changes its shape. , sound is a wave, and if that, that p- changes, it can appear to move faster.

That if you have a change at the peak, so the signal’s peak kind of the echo of it, if you measured its distance, that the peak of the sound arrives faster, but the, the combined shape is it.

So it’s not the physical object traveling the, the sound

[00:36:34] Georgia: You totally lost me there.

[00:36:35] joe: You know.

[00:36:36] Georgia: You know, I … yeah, and

[00:36:37] joe: I was trying to find…

[00:36:38] Georgia: a,

[00:36:39] joe: I, looked up- Okay … like maybe an example to help explain this, ’cause it was one of those things that, you know… And the one thing I found was think of a laser dot sweeping across a distant wall.

The dot can move faster than, than light or appear to, but it’s not actually traveling along it. It doesn’t carry a message faster than light. So it’s when you’re sweeping it [00:37:00] around, it looks like it’s faster, but it’s not, right? It’s it’s a, almost a, a mirage. Information isn’t moving faster than

[00:37:09] Georgia: you’re saying it’s more of an illusion.

[00:37:11] joe: It’s kind of, yes. It’s how you’re measuring it. And they call it temporal interference. Trying to figure out the physics a little bit on, a little bit on the fly,

[00:37:19] Georgia: Yeah,

[00:37:20] joe: you have this.

So,

[00:37:21] Nick: Interesting. Yeah, I wasn’t sure. I took it as a,

[00:37:24] joe: Yeah.

[00:37:25] Nick: slightly different way.

[00:37:28] Georgia: Yeah. You know what? It, and this has nothing to do with science. Yeah. But it, but did you ever see

[00:37:37] joe: that

[00:37:37] Georgia: Death & Robots? The ser- that series, and it’s like animated. It’s an, like, an anthology series where each episode is by a different animator, and it’s a totally, like, standalone series, and they have two or three seasons.

[00:38:00] It’s really good. But one of my very favorite one is the, that one where the whales-

[00:38:06] joe: Mm-hmm … are

[00:38:07] Georgia: diving into the… Do you remember which one I’m talking about, Joe? Oh, gosh, it’s so beautiful. These whales, and they’re running across. Anyway, I can’t really do it justice, but maybe we’ll put that in the notes.

Yeah. And when you were talking about this sound of these whales, that’s what came to my mind. Yeah.

[00:38:27] joe: I looked up going through, just finding some different reference things. I’ll put something else in there. I’ll put some of this in the show notes. But it said this phenomenon, this temporal interference, occurs when multiple wave paths, such as a direct sound wave and its reflected echo bouncing off a nearby surface.

And that was in that, that article you had sent Nick. That, that was kind of this echo effect. They overlap and recombine. When a sound source and receiver are positioned very close to a boundary, like a whale calling near the ocean surface, the [00:39:00] resulting temporal interference shifts the energy peak forward in time.

Because the peak of the recombined wave packet is shifted earlier than the direct wave alone, the signal’s maximum strength physically moves at a seemingly impossible superliminal speed. So it’s kind of more… It- I think it’s a perception and perspective kind of thing that they’re seeing and they’re noting this that you have this kind of observation that they had, and it was trying to figure out how this, this worked in that context.

And so it was

[00:39:32] Georgia: I

[00:39:33] joe: I feel like the, maybe the title’s article was a little clickbaity. But when you dig into it and start… I’m kind of looking up some of the terms and things, that it’s not really traveling faster than light, ’cause that would then break Einstein’s theory of relativity,

[00:39:48] Georgia: So- I don’t know if- Yeah

[00:39:51] joe: so it’s kind of like you’re bouncing off information, and they recombine just perfectly to have , the wave packet is shifted forward by this interference, so, [00:40:00] but you’re not transmitting actual information or data faster than the speed of light. Like, you’re not breaking that boundary.

It’s just kind of the appearance that

it’s

gone faster or it’s there. So, so you really couldn’t use this for, like, space communication or anything like that. It just almost like a trick that you’re using. You’re manipulating physics to make it work. But, you know, there’s no free lunches in America or math, so

[00:40:26] Georgia: I see one image, but it’s not really, it’s not really my favorite image from that episode

[00:40:36] joe: Oh, you’re sending something else

[00:40:38] Georgia: Oh, just- Oh

with

[00:40:40] joe: Oh. Oh yeah, the Love, Death, and Rockets with the… I know what you’re

[00:40:43] Georgia: rockets,

Robots … robots. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:40:45] joe: Yeah.

[00:40:45] Georgia: It’s so, that

[00:40:47] joe: were racing the- Yeah … right, across, which was genetic engineering. They were genetically engineered

[00:40:53] Georgia: was almost a GATTACA

That animation is just-

[00:40:57] joe: That animation- Yep … is just- we’ll put that in there

[00:40:58] Georgia: there

just, yeah, [00:41:00] breathtaking.

[00:41:01] joe: just, yeah, breathtaking Frost, the, what was it called? Frost whale scene

[00:41:03] Georgia: wheel scene? Mm-hmm I’m sorry, that was a total tangent, but

[00:41:10] joe: No, you got- you started on whales

[00:41:12] Georgia: But that, yeah, I had to

[00:41:15] joe: All right. Yeah, we may have to revisit this

[00:41:18] Nick: Well, what kind of media have you guys been consuming lately? I know you guys have been busy, so I don’t know how much you were able to get to

[00:41:25] Georgia: I’ve been reading a lot, which is always good. Which I think that’s pretty much all I ever do is … I mean, I guess we watch a lot of shows, but unfortunately I don’t do any video games.

[00:41:39] Nick: Unfortunately, you gotta get online

[00:41:41] Georgia: I know, I’m just … But I, so I read the book called The Valley of Vengeful Ghosts, and I just, I finished it in two or three days. It was really good, kind of a fever dream,

[00:41:55] joe: ah,

[00:41:56] Georgia: type book, and just really [00:42:00] well-written. And it was somebody that I had saw at the Lit Fest, and they read a little excerpt of their book, and it was like, “Oh, I really need to read that.”

And then I read it. And like So that was good. And I read the book The Great Alone by Kristin Hannah, and that was set in Alaska. And starts out, it’s set in Alaska in, like, the ’70s, and this family goes the-

[00:42:30] Nick: That sounds like a good time, Craig

[00:42:31] Georgia: Yeah, and this family goes to this r- really remote part in Alaska, and just kind of their experience there.

And it was I mean, I read it, it wasn’t during our power outage, but I think that really

[00:42:47] joe: made

even

[00:42:49] Georgia: of an impact reading it, you know, thinking about what that would be like.

[00:42:56] Nick: Oh yeah, I can see that

[00:42:57] Georgia: So I think that’s

[00:42:58] Nick: What about you, Joe? main [00:43:00] things. Yeah. Oh, no. Joe?

[00:43:04] joe: Yeah, I’m assuming. Sorry, I’m still reading about temporal interference. I’m going down a new rabbit hole there. No, that’s interesting. It’s just kind of a thought experience. , kind of the whole, this recombination thing.

Yeah I read… I mean, we were at Dragon Con and then the Lit Fest, so I was down there with the Chicago Writers Association, and I actually had a reading just this past Saturday- down at the Printers Row Wine. So thank them

[00:43:28] Georgia: With Maud, which was a guest,

[00:43:30] joe: also a guest on an episode about mermaids.

So she had her her novel and a b- book of poetry out, so yeah. But no I finished reading Storm Front by Jim Butcher. It was in the kind of urban fantasy. So the character, Dresden, he’s a wizard and he’s a PI, so it was very noir feel. So urban fantasy are kind of wizards,

[00:43:56] Georgia: And how did you come to start reading that?

[00:43:59] joe: And how did you get to the reading there?

‘Cause I was at [00:44:00] Dragon Con. Mm-hmm. I think it just… It’s been on my list and then

[00:44:03] Georgia: Did you meet the author

or-

[00:44:05] joe: meet Jim. No, he was there, but I didn’t meet

[00:44:07] Georgia: okay. But that’s what made you-

[00:44:08] joe: think about it.

[00:44:09] Georgia: ’cause you said that there’s many books in his

[00:44:12] joe: you said that there’s many books in his series.

I think it’s like 17 or so in the series, yeah. So he’s been writing it for a little bit. And yeah, it was really good, so I enjoyed it. I started– I was– I listened to it on audio, and then I listened, started listening to the second one, which it was, like, dra-dramatized, so it was, like, acted. I don’t know if I…

That might be a little

[00:44:29] Nick: Oh, those are, I always loved those. Those are so

cool

[00:44:31] joe: kind of interesting ’cause, it’s like they picked up a, you know, I’m drinking my pint, and you’re like, “Okay, I don’t need the Foley noises here.” It’s kind of…

Yeah. It’s interesting, but really good, really well-written. I can see the character.

He’s kind of a, a fun person, like you might wanna hang out with or maybe you don’t. But yeah, That

[00:44:50] Georgia: That sounds like something that would be easily adapted for, like, like a

[00:44:56] joe: TV show

[00:44:57] Georgia: or

something. I’m sure that

[00:44:57] joe: sure. I’m sure Jim Butcher would be very[00:45:00]

[00:45:00] Georgia: I haven’t even read it yet, and I’m looking forward

to that adaptation.

[00:45:05] joe: I think it’s really cool. No, they’re really– They’re well-written. Like I said, it has a very noir feel and, , a detective, like he’s there and he’s a PI, like kind of, you know, always looking for the next job and, you know, So yeah, it was really cool.

So I did enjoy that.

[00:45:20] Nick: Pretty cool. I think I wanna check that one out

[00:45:22] joe: Yeah. Yeah, I’ll put it, I’ll put it in the show notes as always. So,

[00:45:27] Georgia: And

[00:45:27] joe: than that,

[00:45:28] Nick: As always.

[00:45:29] joe: TV shows. Nothing, yeah. Just kinda been running around. But how about yourself? What are you up to? What are you listening to, reading?

[00:45:39] Nick: Well I beat the 007 First Light game. Really enjoyed that. It honestly felt like I was just watching the, a 007 movie. And yeah, I enjoyed that. It was,

It was good to see a new one of those. And I [00:46:00] am almost done with the new Wolverine game, and honestly, I think it’s been getting a lot more hate for

[00:46:08] joe: Mm-hmm

[00:46:09] Georgia: It’s getting a reasons lot. more for selling, just having poor practices? Yeah,

[00:46:14] joe: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:14] Nick: but I think it’s a fun game. I I don’t think it’s getting the praise it deserves, but, you know, it’s to each their own, you know? Yeah, exactly. And then I’ve been watching some older movies lately. Just watched Witches of Eastwood and,

[00:46:33] joe: Eastwick or Eastwood?

[00:46:34] Nick: Eastwick. Yep, yeah, Eastwick. Got it

right.

[00:46:36] joe: you s- okay

[00:46:38] Nick: And Mermaids.

[00:46:40] Georgia: Mm-hmm. Or a mermaid? Yeah. I’m trying

[00:46:42] Nick: Both with Cher.

[00:46:44] Georgia: I’m trying to think of

[00:46:45] Nick: do did that

[00:46:46] Georgia: I can’t I can’t

[00:46:49] Nick: Yeah, I’ve never

[00:46:50] Georgia: the m-

[00:46:50] Nick: it before

[00:46:50] Georgia: I can’t think of a movie The Mermaid with Cher.

[00:46:55] joe: I don’t know. Maybe.

[00:46:56] Georgia: mermaid movie I can, like, bring up in [00:47:00] my head is, like, Splash.

[00:47:01] joe: Fish Called Wanda.

[00:47:02] Georgia: Yeah.

[00:47:03] joe: I- And then there, I think there was a mermaid.

[00:47:06] Nick: to do with mermaids.

[00:47:08] joe: Yeah.

[00:47:09] Georgia: Okay. It’s called Mermaid and it has nothing to do with mermaids.

[00:47:13] joe: mermaids.

Oh that’s con- that’s

[00:47:14] Georgia: I

don’t remember that title of that movie, huh

[00:47:18] Nick: But yeah, that’s about what I’ve been up to

[00:47:23] joe: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:25] Georgia: Very cool.

Yeah I think Joe’s still reading about your science

[00:47:30] joe: book. I know. I’m read-

[00:47:32] Nick: All right. Well,

[00:47:32] Georgia: sweet. You’ve

[00:47:33] Nick: we’re gonna have to

get

[00:47:35] Georgia: you’ve got him on the-

[00:47:36] joe: back. Yeah, I know, like,

[00:47:37] Nick: What’s up?

[00:47:39] joe: Oh, there’s a, there’s like a some papers,

[00:47:41] Georgia: yeah. No, I’m kidding. There’s a, there’s like a some papers,

[00:47:41] Nick: I gotta do it, guys. Sorry

[00:47:43] joe: Wow

[00:47:44] Georgia: Joe, we gotta go.

[00:47:46] joe: Oh yeah, we, we do. Yeah. I’ll get this in there, yeah.

It was a … There’s an article in the Physics World from 2007, Sound Breaks the Light Barrier.

So that’s

[00:47:56] Georgia: kinda- Okay. Well, stay tuned. Right?

[00:47:58] joe: I know. It’s kind of like

[00:47:59] Nick: Yeah, we’re gonna [00:48:00] have to

I didn’t know I was gonna do this

[00:48:03] joe: I know. It’s exciting, man.

[00:48:07] Georgia: Okay.

[00:48:07] joe: Yeah, well, you got me, Joe, reading about sound breaking the light barrier.

[00:48:11] Nick: You got Nick dumping Joe.

[00:48:13] Georgia: got it. You got it, Dumpling Joe. Yeah. Georgia just saying goodbye.

[00:48:19] Nick: And we went down some mini holes

[00:48:23] joe: Stay safe. Stay curious Bye-bye. I love y’all.

Newsletter and Transcript of Rabbit Hole of Research Episode 84: E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial

Was E.T really the greatest sci-fi movie of 1982? We go down the rabbit hole of where E.T. fits in the summer that changed sci-fi.

In Episode 84 of Rabbit Hole of Research, Joe, Nick, Georgia, and Mary welcome back returning guest and boxing glove artist Chris Guzman(@theboxinggloveartist) to the Basement Studio to talk E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial. Was it really the greatest sci-fi film of the summer of ’82, or just the most sentimental?

LISTEN TO EPISODE 84

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Episode 84 Transcript

Previous RHOR Episode(s) with Chris:

Gremlins and Holiday Science

Where to find Chris Online:

Art: Instagram: @theboxinggloveartist
Food: Instagram: @stupidgoodgrill
Facebook: Chris GuzMan

Georgia and Jim’s Touch of Noir 2027 Wall Calendar —

12 months of all-original art by Jim and Georgia; orders are open now, with mailing expected in September

Check out what the RHR crew is creating:

Joe:

Named by the Guild Literary Complex as one of the 35 Writers to Watch!
Red Line: Chicago Horror Stories Anthology featuring a story by Joe!
Joe’s Sci-fi physiological thriller Novel: Will You Still Love Me If I Become Someone Else?
Joe’s Rom-Com Novella: Tomorrow May Be Too Late

Future Events to Hang with the Crew:

Podcast Cross-Appearances

Joe on GoIndieNow: 21grams with Joe Compton talking about villains.
RHR Crew on This Podcast Will Change Your Life with Ben Tanzer

Events & Conventions:

Joe:

Maud’s READINGS at Printer’s Row Wine on Sep 19th 2-4pm
Art show Ultrastructure: Science is Fun, with Carol Estes at Promise You Art House in Highland IN, October 10th, 10-3pm
Family Day: Seeing the Invisible World to Build a New One; in conjunction with the fall exhibition: teamLab: Everything Exists in Infinite Continuity, at the Smart Museum of Art In Hyde Park, IL, Nov 14th, 11-3pm
Art and Science lecture about Zombies: Dec 10thGeorgia:The inaugural 4th Street Print Fest at Chesterton Art Center on Saturday, October 3, from 1–4 PM

It’s Science for Weirdos

We discussed these questions on the episode and now want to Hear From You (leave a comment):

Was E.T. the greatest sci-fi film of the summer of 1982, or does another film on that list take the crown?
If a real extraterrestrial landed in your neighborhood, would your first instinct be to help it, or call the government?
We named a few in the episode, but do you have a favorite friendly alien story? Favorite hostile alien?

Drop your thoughts in the comments. We read them all, and your ideas often shape future episodes.

Leave a comment

Future Episodes

Episode 86: Disability in HorrorGuest: Grace Daly (Bram Stoker nominee)
Episode 88: CraziesRecorded at Reed’s Local with Melissa and Luc
Episode 90: Witch PleaseGuest: Bill Halliar (@skeletongue)

Leave a comment

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Show Notes & Fun Facts

Stuff crew said they’d put in shownotes

E.T. novelization by William Kotzwinkle — novelization that goes deeper into the E.T lore.
The Thing Expanded (CreatorVC)— 5 hour Kickstarter documentary — Joe is in the credits as a supporter.
Drew Struzan — Poster artist that designed the iconic The Thing poster, passed away October 2025.
Armistead Maupin’s Maybe the Moon — Georgia mentioned Armistead Maupin based this novel on his friend Tamara De Treaux, one of the performers inside the E.T. suit.
E.T. II: Nocturnal Fears — was the cancelled, horror-themed sequel Chris had mentioned. written by Steven Spielberg and screenwriter Melissa Mathison

Movies

E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial (1982)
Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan (1982)
Poltergeist (1982)
The Thing (1982)
Blade Runner (1982)
Tron (1982)
The Road Warrior (1982)
Alien (1979)
Close Encounters of the Third Kind (1977)
Star Wars (1977)
Gremlins (1984)
Starman (1984)
Back to the Future (1985)
Ghostbusters (1984)
Cocoon (1985)
Flight of the Navigator (1986)
Mac and Me (1988)
Men in Black (1997)
Paul (2011)
Alien Nation (1988)
District 9 (2009)
Alien Romulus (2024)
Prey (2022)
V/H/S/85 (2023)
Under Siege (1992)
They Live (1988)
Tommy Boy (1995)
Mars Attacks! (1996)
Starship Troopers (1997)
The Iron Giant (1999)
Planet 51 (2009)
Battle for Terra (2007)

Mork & Mindy
My Favorite Martian
V (miniseries)
Stranger Things
Alien Nation
ALF

Books

Roadside Picnic — Arkady & Boris Strugatsky (1972)
Maybe the Moon — Armistead Maupin
Farewell to the Master — Harry Bates (1940)
Childhood’s End — Arthur C. Clarke (1953)
First Contact — Murray Leinster (1945) — coined the term “first contact” in fiction
Dear Devil — Eric Frank Russell (1950)
A True Story — Lucian of Samosata (2nd century AD) — arguably the first sci-fi alien story
The War of the Worlds — H.G. Wells (1898)
The Germ Growers — Robert Potter (1892) — credited as the first alien invasion novel
Two Planets — Kurd Lasswitz (1897)

Video Games

E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial (Atari, 1982)
Pitfall (Atari)
Centipede (Atari)

Fun Facts to Impress Your Friends With:

The summer of 1982 may be the greatest 8-week run in sci-fi film history.Within roughly two months, theaters saw Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan (June 4), Poltergeist (June 4), E.T. (June 11), The Thing (June 25), Blade Runner (June 25), Tron (July 9), and The Road Warrior (August). Both The Thing and Blade Runner bombed on release and are now considered all-time classics. E.T. became the highest-grossing film ever made and held that title for 11 years until another little film replaced it (Jurassic Park).
Wood frogs freeze solid every winter and come back to life in spring. When E.T. appears to die and revives, it’s not as far-fetched as it sounds. Real organisms like wood frogs and tardigrades (water bears) can enter cryptobiotic states — no heartbeat, no breathing — and be fully revived. Tardigrades have survived being frozen for 30 years.
Atari buried 700,000 unsold E.T. game cartridges in a New Mexico landfill — and for years people thought it was an urban legend. The E.T. game was rushed out in five weeks, widely considered one of the worst games ever made, and helped trigger the video game industry crash of 1983. The burial was confirmed by excavation in 2014.
The first half of E.T. was deliberately shot so adults are never seen from the waist up — a tribute to the cartoons of Tex Avery, the MGM animation director behind Daffy Duck, Droopy, and the phrase “What’s up, Doc?” It was Spielberg’s way of keeping the entire film locked in a child’s point of view.

Episode Highlights

00:00 Basement Studio Chaos — Full house, and the show immediately goes off the rails before Joe can even start.

00:40 Guest Roll Call — Returning guest and boxing glove artist Chris Guzman is back for E.T. with Reese’s Pieces and artwork.

03:02 Summer 1982 Sci-Fi Run — Joe lays out the most extraordinary 8-week run in sci-fi history: Star Trek II, Poltergeist, E.T., The Thing, Blade Runner, Tron, and The Road Warrior all within two months.

06:43 Thing Poster Tangent — Chris calls for a moment of silence for Drew Struzan, the greatest poster artist of all time.

08:15 E.T. Origins and Studio Pass — Joe traces E.T. back to Spielberg’s childhood imaginary alien friend, the unmade Night Skies project, and Columbia Pictures famously calling it “a wimpy Walt Disney movie.”

10:49 Columbia’s Missed Hits — Chris drops the bombshell: Columbia also passed on Back to the Future and Ghostbusters (then called Ghost Smashers).

13:32 Reese’s Pieces and Atari — M&M’s said no, Hershey said yes, and Atari buried 700,000 unsold cartridges in a New Mexico landfill and nearly killed an entire industry.

17:37 Hot Takes: E.T. Debate — Joe admits he wasn’t impressed as a seven-year-old, Chris nearly walks out, and the basement studio divides hard on whether E.T. holds up.

19:30 Defending E.T.’s Heart — Mary watched it again the night before and cried her eyes out; Georgia argues it’s not a kids movie, it’s a human movie.

26:10 Government Hazmat Logic — Joe makes the case that the real government response would have quarantined the entire town, taken Elliott in for studies, and put E.T. in a BSL-4 containment facility.

31:20 Product Placement List — Chris stopped counting the products in the first ten minutes: Coca-Cola, Fresca, Tab, Fritos, Raid, Sun-Maid raisins, Chutes and Ladders, Star Wars toys, and Coors…

32:26 E.T. as Jedi — Is E.T. a Force-sensitive Padawan? The Halloween scene where E.T. recognizes Yoda and says “home” may be proof E.T. was a Jedi in training.

33:39 Spielberg-Lucas Easter Eggs — The Lucas-Spielberg profit swap bet, E.T. species appearing in the Phantom Menace senate, and Rob Bottin (The Thing practical effects designer) performed in the Star Wars cantina band.

35:42 Science vs. Movie Magic — Joe points out the Handwavium needed for the bicycle-and-moon silhouette. in short the whole thing is impossible.

37:33 Psychic Link Plot Holes — If E.T. and Elliott are psychically linked, why does Elliott lose track of him?

38:37 Candy, Plants, and Biology — Joe points out that the dying flower E.T. revives is a reproductive organ.

40:22 Drew Barrymore’s Heart — Chris reveals that Drew Barrymore’s “I don’t like his feet” reaction was completely unscripted.

42:22 80s PSAs and Framing — The crew riffs on “Do you know where your children are?” and the connection to Tex Avery cartoons.

44:32 Gremlins Origin Story — Chris connects E.T to Gremlins as an original script written about what would happen if E.T.’s species came back and weren’t so cuddly.

46:02 Friendly Alien History — Joe lists aliens through history.

54:23 Alien Stories and Metaphors — Mary recommends Alien Romulus, and Joe brings up Roadside Picnic as the ultimate alien-artifacts-without-contact story.

57:34 Peter Pan Influence — Mary makes the case that E.T. has threads of Peter Pan.

01:01:09 E.T. Autopsy Science Talk — The crew discusses whether E.T.’s “death” is similar to tardigrades and wood frogs in biological stasis.

01:03:52 80s Alien Movie Roll Call — Killer Klowns from Outer Space, Cocoon, Flight of the Navigator, and Mac and Me.

01:06:38 Dark Turns and Autopsies — Nick points out that the scientists could have started cutting the moment E.T. appeared to die.

01:09:21 E.T. Suit Performers — Georgia’s points out that Armistead Maupin’s novel Maybe the Moon was written in Tamara’s honor.

01:14:32 Corey Feldman Cut — Chris reveals Corey Feldman was originally cast as Elliott’s best friend, cut, but Spielberg put him into Gremlins instead.

01:15:11 Fannish Halloween Meltdown — Chris tells the story of his tantrum on the floor over a E.T. costume.

01:18:19 Merchandising and Toy Wars — Joe traces the merchandising revolution of movie toys.

01:21:32 Stranger Things Influence — Georgia connects Stranger Things’ bike rides and creature design back to E.T. and Joe points out that the Demogorgon looks like something out of The Thing.

01:22:27 Alien-Predator Cage Match — E.T. versus a xenomorph. Predator versus E.T. and what if E.T. encountered The Thing? Who Goes There?

01:26:56 Why E.T. Still Works — Chris: “It’s a feel-good movie and one of the first summer blockbusters I ever experienced.”

01:35:53 Wrap Up and Where to Find Chris — Instagram: @theboxinggloveartist and @stupidgoodgrill, Facebook: Chris Guzman. Go buy some boxing gloves.

“Stay curious, stay safe… Love Y’all!”

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Transcript

00:00:00 joe: Hey, welcome back to the Rabbit Hole of Research. Down here in the basement studio, we are all crewed up

[00:00:10] georgia: Full

[00:00:10] nick: house. Everyone in

[00:00:12] georgia: even… There’s not even room to move. There’s

[00:00:15] joe: not even room to move There is not room to move.

[00:00:17] Mary: I don’t

[00:00:17] joe: I don’t know. Yeah.

[00:00:18] nick: Georgia, I don’t know what you’re doing over there. Why can’t you

move?

[00:00:20] joe: Yeah,

it’s

[00:00:21] nick: it’s like,

uh- There is plenty of

[00:00:22] georgia: room only.

[00:00:24] joe: Well, yeah, standing room only.

We got a live studio audience. I don’t know.

[00:00:30] Mary: have Phoebe Cates.

[00:00:31] joe: Yeah. Well, hold on.

[00:00:32] Mary: Okay, wait. Okay. Now-

[00:00:33] joe: pre-show conversation. Let’s, uh-

[00:00:35] nick: wait. Sorry,

[00:00:36] Chris_G: If that’s the intro, this is gonna be something.

[00:00:39] Mary: this

[00:00:39] georgia: gonna do something. Well,

[00:00:39] Mary: be something. Well,

[00:00:40] joe: you’ve got me,

Joe.

[00:00:42] nick: I got Nick.

[00:00:43] georgia: You got Nick.

Georgia.

That’s-

[00:00:46] nick: Jesus. We

[00:00:46] Mary: you got Mary. We’ve

[00:00:47] joe: got Mary, and we have

A return- Oh, Mary’s here, you guys

yes, returning. Came back for a little more punishment.

[00:00:53] georgia: punishment.

[00:00:54] nick: He loved it.

[00:00:55] Chris_G: had such a great time last time y- you put it out there for me, and I said [00:01:00] absolutely.

[00:01:00] joe: You gonna name yourself, or are you just gonna… people have to go and listen through

to all the episodes?

[00:01:04] Chris_G: call in and guess.

[00:01:06] nick: Oh, yeah, we do have the

new phone line, yep.

[00:01:08] joe: That’s right. Yeah.

555-5555. Yeah.

[00:01:09] Mary: 555-5555.

[00:01:12] Chris_G: Yeah.

Wait, w- I gotta write that

[00:01:13] georgia: down.

[00:01:14] Chris_G: That’s a

[00:01:15] joe: That’s a good ’80s one. But anyway, we got the boxing glove artist, Chris Guzman himself here.

[00:01:21] Chris_G: How is everyone?

[00:01:22] Mary: Woo-hoo … on

[00:01:23] georgia: Yay. Woo … in our Gremlin episode.

[00:01:24] nick: That was-

[00:01:25] Chris_G: that was a quality

[00:01:27] joe: movie.

[00:01:27] Chris_G: evening.

[00:01:28] nick: Yeah.

[00:01:28] joe: And he came back. And well, he- he gave himself his own- invite back, ’cause he was like

[00:01:36] nick: we we’re gonna talk about E.T.

[00:01:38] joe: And then it was like, oh, that’s a great idea. And then now here he is and we’re gonna be talking about E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial,

[00:01:45] Chris_G: There’s gonna be a l- there’s gonna be a little bit of Gremlin talk, too.

[00:01:48] joe: probably will be, yes. There has to be, yes. No

I have a, I have things queued up, so yes.

They’re clawed hand in

clawed hand. They, indeed they are. And there it is. We’re already-

[00:01:57] georgia: finger in strange finger.

[00:01:58] Mary: Oh,

[00:01:59] joe: okay. [00:02:00] Well, let’s, phew. Yep.

[00:02:02] Mary: Man, we went off the rails fast.

[00:02:04] joe: just Super fast.

[00:02:05] nick: in strange finger. Oh, okay. Let’s, yep. Man, we went off the rails. Well, I’ll get us down from that. Didn’t take long for this episode.

[00:02:06] joe: was the ’80s. This is still PG-13. I mean, according to the ’80s, this is all-

you know.

[00:02:12] Mary: was PG-13. That was one of the ’80s. It was you know-

[00:02:12] georgia: Oh, boy.

[00:02:14] joe: Well, great. This episode I, I don’t have, I’m not gonna do my- Oh,

[00:02:18] nick: no monologue?

No monologue

[00:02:19] joe: in this one.

[00:02:20] nick: Not gonna be talking about how we’re talk- you know, talking to

aliens.

[00:02:24] joe: I

just gotta

get, I’ma go right into it.

You’re throwing me, man.

I’ma

[00:02:27] Chris_G: I’ve been

[00:02:28] georgia: I’ve been

studying.

[00:02:28] joe: That’s

right.

Yeah.

[00:02:29] Chris_G: what he does.

[00:02:30] joe: what I like doing, throwing out. Ah. But I think this one here, I just wanna, I wanna get in. I got a few lists. I do have lists. I’m list heavy in this episode, so I feel like I need to balance that out, and I’ma come right

[00:02:40] georgia: out. And Mary’s happy you’re not doing

[00:02:42] nick: doing a

[00:02:43] joe: Sheesh.

[00:02:44] georgia: I m- What

[00:02:45] joe: of, what do you guys

talk

[00:02:46] Chris_G: looks overjoyed.

[00:02:47] joe: I know. It’s like-

[00:02:49] georgia: like- I’m just teasing … if we

[00:02:50] joe: had

room

to move, she would shear her arms

[00:02:53] georgia: in this. But Mary s- she does give you a hard time about your monologues. But,

[00:02:56] joe: right. But,

[00:02:56] Mary: Yeah. You know. Yeah,

[00:02:57] georgia: w-

[00:02:58] joe: was gonna say that I wanna start out [00:03:00] with the list and then we can go back, we can loop back.

But I think the summer of ’82

[00:03:04] Mary: ’82

[00:03:05] georgia: is

[00:03:05] joe: probably one of the most, you know, extraordinary eight to 10-week runs in sci-fi film history that’s just, I’m gonna lay that out there. I’m gonna give the list of what came out, and then we can move and get back to E.T., ’cause I think this is gonna set up a whole lot of conversation here.

But you start the summer off with Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, which may have been one of the best Star Trek movies in the

series.

[00:03:28] nick: this is gonna sound naive, but I didn’t know that movie was in theaters.

[00:03:33] Mary: It just,

[00:03:34] joe: they didn’t go straight to video back

then.

[00:03:37] nick: many. What are you talking about?

[00:03:38] Mary: They did, yeah.

[00:03:39] joe: What are you talking about?

They did, yeah. This is ’82.

No way.

[00:03:40] nick: movies

went straight to-

[00:03:41] joe: already start out with- I’m

[00:03:41] Mary: it’s like

Maybe you thought it was a TV movie. I thought it was a

[00:03:42] nick: VHS … V-

[00:03:43] Mary: Okay. All right. I’m sorry.

[00:03:45] Chris_G: List of one? We’re already in a ditch? Nick, come on,

[00:03:49] joe: ditch? We, out the gate, we are, we’re in controversy

[00:03:52] nick: right now. This is gonna be a whole controversial

episode. All

right. All right. I

[00:03:56] Mary: until 3:00 AM.

[00:03:57] joe: So, and that

was the, that was- one of the

first

feature [00:04:00] films

to use an entirely computer-generated sequence, the Genesis effect. That was, if people remember that movie.

I’m not sure if everyone

[00:04:06] georgia: obviously Nick doesn’t.

I’ve seen it.

[00:04:08] joe: I’ve

[00:04:08] nick: I’ve seen it, I just didn’t know that it was in theaters. No. It was a little before my time, guys. I’m

so sorry.

[00:04:15] joe: June 4th, at the same, it was marquee with Star Trek II, was Poltergeist. And interesting fact that tethers into all this is Spielberg wrote it.

I didn’t know that until I started doing research. And some people consider it the evil twin of E.T. And so we’ll probably… I see Chris shaking his head, so we’ll get him there. June 11th, the next week, we had E.T. come out. Immediately the biggest movie ever made. It held that title for 11 years until another Spielberg movie came out called Jurassic Park in ’93.

June 25th, my homie John Carpenter came out with The Thing.

Yes.

It came out the same day as Blade Runner. It bombed on release. Mm-hmm. But now it’s considered one of the greatest horror movies ever made. [00:05:00] Blade Runner, which came out, Ridley Scott, also an OG, bombed

Bombed on release

now considered one of the greatest sci-fi movies ever made.

[00:05:09] nick: Wait, both of them bombed?

[00:05:11] joe: of them bombed. Yeah.

[00:05:12] Mary: Thing bombed,

[00:05:12] joe: did.

[00:05:13] nick: I’m sorry, Chris, I didn’t mean to offend you with that one too. I’m

[00:05:17] Chris_G: I’m not of- I’m not offended.

I felt sorry for a moment. No. We’re fine.

[00:05:21] nick: fine.

[00:05:22] joe: July 9th

you know, Tron

[00:05:24] georgia: Oh

[00:05:24] joe: out, so Nick’s, one of Nick’s favorite movies. It was the first major studio film that extensively used CGI. August, The Road Warrior to cap up the summer. So one of the g-

[00:05:34] Mary: My goodness

[00:05:35] joe: run of

movies

[00:05:36] georgia: figured out when you asked what, where, when do you wanna time travel to 1982. Just want- Summer 1982 … to go right now in

[00:05:46] joe: with

a pocket full of old school coinage. I don’t know. Can’t take dollars, fag. It’s

like I think

the

[00:05:51] Chris_G: the way it works out is that children that were seven years old at the time

[00:05:56] joe: are just naturally Yeah

[00:05:57] Chris_G: gifted individuals. Oh, yeah. ‘Cause you’d’ve had to have been [00:06:00] born in 1975

babies born in 1975 had, have a distinct advantage.

I think we figured that out

[00:06:06] georgia: I

[00:06:07] joe: correct. I would whole-heartedly agree with that.

[00:06:09] georgia: Yeah.

[00:06:10] Chris_G: Yeah. You would?

[00:06:11] joe: I would, indeed.

greatest year to be born. What

[00:06:15] nick: What year were you guys born again? I’m sorry.

[00:06:17] Chris_G: I don’t remember. I was way too young. I was way too young.

[00:06:20] georgia: was

[00:06:20] joe: young.

[00:06:21] Chris_G: No. But

[00:06:21] nick: well,

[00:06:22] joe: but yeah. I like the, I, I that’s where I’ma start it all at. Put

[00:06:26] georgia: Put it in context.

[00:06:27] joe: put it

in context, and we can now talk a little bit about E.T.,

and then I’ma- You couldn’t wait

[00:06:33] georgia: to mention The Thing.

[00:06:34] joe: Like

[00:06:34] georgia: You have

[00:06:36] Mary: mention The Thing in every episode, and rightly, I think.

[00:06:39] joe: We do. Yes. That’s right. Yeah. That’s right.

[00:06:40] nick: Yeah. I mean, it is in our contracts.

[00:06:42] joe: that’s right. Yes.

that’s right. John Carpenter,

[00:06:44] Chris_G: Moment of silence for Drew Struzan, who did the poster for The Thing. Oh. And lots of other posters. He’s the greatest poster artist of all time,

[00:06:54] nick: Yeah, he passed away-

[00:06:55] joe: That’s right. Yeah. Last year.

[00:06:57] Mary: Oh, recently. Yep, yep. Oh. Yeah, it was. Yep,

[00:07:00] in Wisco. Yeah. RIP.

[00:07:00] joe: right. And that, and The Thing, it was a rush job. I don’t think that was… It wasn’t, it was like a week or so like you gotta get this done and it

[00:07:09] Chris_G: weren’t gonna put the image of The Thing-

[00:07:11] joe: That’s right. Well, there

is no… What is the-

[00:07:12] nick: is

[00:07:13] Chris_G: What

would the image be?

[00:07:14] joe: right. And I think that was the problem and some of the- you

[00:07:17] georgia: you might-

politics … you might ask, how do we know all these facts about the Thing?

[00:07:22] Chris_G: might ask.

[00:07:22] joe: these facts about The Thing? You might ask. Yeah.

I just, I,

[00:07:24] Chris_G: I just watched the-

[00:07:26] georgia: Joe might tell us … creator

[00:07:28] joe: CV extended The Thing three hour and a

half- The Thing documentary ex- Thing expanded Kickstarted you know, so yeah, my name’s in the credits if you go check it out.

It was a, it, yeah, it’s a watch.

[00:07:38] nick: Oh, look at that. You’re in the, you have credits now? No. Do we have an IMDb page for you yet? I

[00:07:43] Chris_G: Yeah.

He was just a supporter, but- I

was

[00:07:46] joe: supporter, but- I was a

[00:07:46] georgia: but the day it came it was, “Oh, we must Yes, we did. a three-hour documentary on The Thing.

[00:07:52] Chris_G: The Thing. Well, I was unaware we had celebrities in the house tonight,

[00:07:55] joe: night. Yeah. Well, the Rabbit Hole of Research is, has a page.

Oh, we do?

We do, [00:08:00] yeah. Oh. People in on it.

[00:08:01] nick: I didn’t know this. Oh, now I gotta look myself up.

Hold on. I gotta get

my star

[00:08:05] joe: I didn’t say your name was in it,

but- …I just said

Rabbit Hole of

[00:08:08] Chris_G: didn’t say Rabbit Hole- Put the phone back down.

[00:08:10] joe: Yeah.

I’m gonna- He’s gonna fill it in. He’s gonna be like,

“Hey, you

know it.”

Yeah.

[00:08:13] Mary: Sorry.

[00:08:14] nick: All right.

[00:08:14] georgia: All right.

[00:08:15] joe: No.

so E.T. Spielberg- concept came from an imaginary alien friend he invented after his parents divorced in the ’60s, so some mirroring there.

A lot of people, and even himself, it’s semi-autobiographical, the film of E.T. It was two unmade projects that kind of was a synthesis of E.T.: Growing Up, which was an autobiographical shelf project due to production problems on 1941

Spielberg’s World War

II comedy in ’79, and Night Skies, the unproduced sci-fi horror film kind of the darker sequel to Close Encounters Of the Third Kind. [00:09:00] So it was, like, an aggressive alien terrorizing a farmhouse with one friendly alien named Buddee or Buddy. It depends on the spelling in the script. But yeah, so, so that was where it came from, like the ideation. Columbia Pictures originally passed on E.T. After developing it for about 10 months and investing a million in there.

The studio chief Frank Price, said it was a wimpy Walt Disney movie, opting to focus on their adult-oriented film, Star Man, 1984. Carpenter, who directed that,

[00:09:34] Chris_G: A,

[00:09:34] Mary: very good movie … it

[00:09:35] joe: a g- it was a good movie. Yeah. Yep, that’s right. All

[00:09:37] georgia: All right, Joe. And the- This kinda sounds like a monologue.

[00:09:40] Chris_G: Maybe

[00:09:41] joe: sounds like a monologue.

Maybe it is. See, I just…

I said, “List. Lists turn into monologues.” No

I just got couple- a couple more

[00:09:46] nick: all written down.

[00:09:47] joe: Columbia retained 5% of net profits in that deal with Universal, who did E.T., and that 5% made Columbia more money that year than any of their other films,

[00:09:57] georgia: Just 5%?

[00:09:58] joe: That’s 5% of E.T [00:10:00] Mm-hmm. The

film’s working

title was A Boy’s Life. It was used to hide the plot.

And

Gremlins, and then I don’t know, Chris, if you had this one, the 1994 horror film, comedy, Christmas comedy, Gremlins- Check out our episode on that. The, the Kingston Falls movie theater marquee had two movies on it: A Boy’s Life, which was the alternate title for E.T.,

and Watch the Skies, which was the alternate title for Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Okay, I’m done.

So there

[00:10:32] georgia: go. That was a lot

you just threw in there.

[00:10:35] nick: pretty

sure Chris didn’t know that. Don’t worry.

[00:10:37] Chris_G: to, I’m trying to

[00:10:37] nick: Chris-

[00:10:38] Chris_G: of them. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I

think- That was half my material right there.

So, I’ll be seeing y’all.

[00:10:43] Mary: I know. I’m

[00:10:44] joe: this all out

because it’s gonna get pretty controversial real fast, so I’m just gonna, I’m just trying to-

[00:10:49] nick: Oh, did Georgia tell you my hot takes already?

[00:10:51] joe: did You tell- tell already- You’re t- hear my hot

takes so- As long as we’re slamming Columbia. Can I throw [00:11:00] in some nuggets here?

like to say the rabbit hole of research didn’t slam Columbia, but Not yet.

[00:11:07] Chris_G: The human beings in this room- definitely are giggling at their expense. And I’m one of them, and I’m loud and proud. Yeah, Columbia passed on E.T.

[00:11:16] joe: Mm-hmm

[00:11:17] Chris_G: ‘Cause Starman was more important apparently.

[00:11:19] georgia: never heard of.

[00:11:20] Chris_G: well, yeah.

They also passed on Back To The Future.

[00:11:23] joe: Yeah. Wow.

[00:11:24] Chris_G: They did not think… Columbia had it on a silver platter and said, Yeah … I’m not quo- I’m not quoting anyone, ’cause there’s no actual quote, but the overall feel was that they did not think that a time travel movie would would equal dollars at the box office.

Right,

[00:11:39] joe: Right. Wow. Yeah.

[00:11:41] Chris_G: yeah … strike

[00:11:42] joe: two.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:44] Chris_G: Then they get this, this really awesome script called Ghost Smashers.

[00:11:50] joe: Ooh, I wonder

what that could become.

[00:11:51] nick: a

[00:11:51] Mary: that

[00:11:52] Chris_G: become. It was a working title. It got tweaked a little bit towards the end, but yeah, Ghost Smashers. They said it was gonna be way too expensive.

And- they

[00:11:59] georgia: that down, too?[00:12:00]

[00:12:00] Chris_G: They turned down three of the biggest movies of that decade-

[00:12:05] joe: Wow.

[00:12:06] Chris_G: for business reasons. …

[00:12:07] georgia: IPs. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:12:10] joe: Yep. Yeah.

[00:12:11] Chris_G: Weak sauce. Side order of weak sauce. Wow.

[00:12:13] joe: But they did smartly keep 5% of th- that E.T. money, so that was a

they weren’t that, It was

like how do we hedge

our bets here?”

[00:12:21] Chris_G: should tell you something, that their biggest money maker- … was them not even doing it.

[00:12:26] joe: That’s right, yeah. So sometimes that’s the best money, right? Where you just sit

back

[00:12:29] georgia: sit back

[00:12:30] Mary: and Collect those residuals.

[00:12:32] joe: That’s

right, yeah.

[00:12:32] georgia: then you start calculating this is 5%. Now, let’s see.

[00:12:36] joe: true.

[00:12:36] georgia: what would have

[00:12:37] joe: Yeah. What’s Columbia doing these days?

[00:12:39] Chris_G: Three Men And An Old Lady. I don’t know what they’re doing anymore.

[00:12:43] nick: I mean, what? Didn’t they put out the Spider-Verse films

[00:12:47] joe: No.

Isn’t that, um-

[00:12:49] nick: Sony Columbia

[00:12:49] joe: Isn’t that Sony? Columbia. Sony bought Columbia then. Yeah, so, right, so they’re not their own thing anymore.

[00:12:55] nick: that I’m just

[00:12:55] joe: Okay. Oh, well, I’m just saying.

They probably would’ve bought Sony if they made these

[00:12:59] georgia: [00:13:00] So you’re gonna make it controversial, huh, Joe?

[00:13:03] joe: Yeah I mean, I don’t…

[00:13:04] Chris_G: I…

[00:13:05] joe: Chris, do you got things to say about E.T.?

[00:13:08] Chris_G: I have things- …

on an ET

[00:13:10] nick: about ET?

[00:13:10] Mary: podcast to plug-

[00:13:10] joe: on

the E.T. Podcast.

Yeah, please go.

I mean, you’re the guest, so I

talked a lot. I’m

getting r- i- people said I, you know, I talk too much, and so

[00:13:17] Chris_G: No one thinks that.

[00:13:18] joe: No, truly. Truly no one thinks

don’t. Well, does.

[00:13:21] Chris_G: Well, I can’t speak for

[00:13:22] joe: Let’s ask our studio audience. What do you guys think? No.

[00:13:24] Mary: So what’s another fact about E.T. that you would like us to know?

[00:13:28] Chris_G: Oh, sweet Jesus.

[00:13:29] joe: You’re-

[00:13:29] georgia: or an opinion.

[00:13:31] joe: Yes, or opinion. I

mean,

[00:13:32] Chris_G: i- if we’re gonna talk about roads not traveled,

[00:13:35] Mary: Mm-hmm

[00:13:35] Chris_G: they offered-

[00:13:38] joe: That’s right … M and Ms You’re right.

[00:13:40] Chris_G: to be the candy of choice for a pretty-

[00:13:44] joe: Yeah. And M and said that little-

it was too scary. They thought E.T. was just too scary.

[00:13:49] nick: those of you not with us here in the studio, Chris was holding up a box of

[00:13:54] Chris_G: See?

Have little cameras in my face. I thought we were on

[00:13:57] nick: know what I’m right a joke. He [00:14:00] also brought us packs of Reese’s Pieces, as

[00:14:02] joe: well Yeah. Yeah, yeah, And some artwork.

That’s

right

[00:14:05] Chris_G: road not traveled.

[00:14:06] joe: Yeah.

[00:14:07] Chris_G: What kind– I mean, M&M’s def- and Mars is not hurting.

[00:14:12] joe: No. They, they did all

[00:14:13] Chris_G: of the boost they could have gotten in the summer of ’82 at every movie theater.

[00:14:17] georgia: But at the same time, look at Reese’s Pieces, what that did for them.

[00:14:21] Mary: Right.

[00:14:21] joe: yeah.

[00:14:21] Chris_G: they’re

hanging their hat on that E.T. money. Yeah.

[00:14:23] joe: are. Yep. Atari also. I mean, where

[00:14:26] nick: Oh, geez

Louise.

[00:14:28] Chris_G: whiz.

[00:14:29] joe: That led to

the, what the video game collapse in

[00:14:32] nick: almost killed the whole industry …

[00:14:34] joe: And you know, they … Atari buried-

[00:14:36] georgia: back and explain this,

[00:14:38] Chris_G: and explain this? This is one of the greatest stories

in Atari

[00:14:41] Mary: you…

[00:14:41] Chris_G: Will you?

Oh.

[00:14:42] Mary: Yeah,

[00:14:42] joe: yeah. Well,

[00:14:43] Chris_G: first of all, they made this movie… Excuse me. They made this video game in, like, it looks like it was made in an afternoon. It,

[00:14:50] joe: Yes,

[00:14:50] Mary: It,

[00:14:50] Chris_G: It was- Atari did? It’s- I have it on emulator. I was

[00:14:52] georgia: Atari did?

[00:14:52] joe: think I have it on emulator. I was gonna try to have it running for us- It- … but it didn’t work

out. But

[00:14:57] Chris_G: people that, that will die on the hill [00:15:00] of the E.T. video game is the worst video game of all time. I purposely, I personally don’t feel that way, but it is, it’s

[00:15:06] joe: in the conversation. It’s pretty.

[00:15:07] nick: It’s got some contenders against

it, yeah.

[00:15:09] joe: fun.

I remember, I will say

my neighbors, Al and Willie, they had it, and I r- and my parents weren’t gonna get me a video game. I didn’t get one till like Nintendo, so that was a little

There was a little gate. But they had E.T. And I would just go over. I mean, compared to Pitfall and Centipede, i- you know, it

wasn’t

The

graphics, it wasn’t like, “Oh man, its graphics

is what drug it down.” it was just kind of, it was

[00:15:35] Chris_G: poor- There were graphics?

[00:15:36] Mary: game,

[00:15:37] joe: Yeah.

[00:15:37] Chris_G: There were graphics on yours, okay.

[00:15:39] joe: yeah. So it was just, it was a poorly conceived, but I remember excited about going and play it, and I, and you know. We’ll get in-

[00:15:45] Chris_G: I thought it w- it

[00:15:46] joe: Drop my hot hot take, but go

ahead.

[00:15:48] Chris_G: It was fun-ish. Yeah. It

[00:15:50] joe: was Yeah, yeah. it was, Yeah … you know- Right … yeah …it, had- But it got a rise in

[00:15:51] Chris_G: you know- For

[00:15:52] nick: but for the, price of it man

[00:15:54] Chris_G: Rotation of m- of all my Atari games, yeah, at the time.

But apparently the, the story goes, the [00:16:00] lore, is that they made way too many. They made, like, thousands of percent more than they needed. They thought there was gonna be this giant rush because the movie was so hot. Mm-hmm. And stores started sending them back ’cause they had so much unsold stock of it.

Yeah. They had

[00:16:17] joe: Yep

[00:16:18] Chris_G: countless hundreds of thousands of copies of this video

[00:16:21] nick: As well as people returning it, yes?

[00:16:22] georgia: game.

now, would it be worth want-

[00:16:24] nick: No.

[00:16:25] joe: I

mean- Is it

still-

Well, so-

[00:16:26] Chris_G: If it’s

sealed

[00:16:28] joe: what happened was Atari buried 700,000 unsold cartridges-

[00:16:34] georgia: actually buried

[00:16:35] joe: In

New Mexico landfill. And it was u- rumored. Like, people… It was, like, c- a very hot, controversial topic. Did they do it? Didn’t they do it?

And

some people said it was, like, millions, but it’s come down to, like, about, you know, 700, which still is a lot.

[00:16:49] nick: ’cause what? A couple years back, they- They excavated- Yeah

[00:16:51] Chris_G: in 2020- You did see that documentary.

Yeah. That was so

[00:16:55] joe: Yeah, that’s right.

Yep, yep. So, but yeah, no, that was that was… And we were talking about some facts [00:17:00] on the Reese’s Pieces and talking about product placement.

Their sales jumped over 65% within two weeks of the movie release, so that was the-

[00:17:07] Chris_G: They had nowhere to go but

[00:17:08] joe: up. Yeah, yep. So that was the big one. Oh, huge.

[00:17:12] Chris_G: Huge. I l- I love that. I love that M&M’s… How many people didn’t see what this movie could’ve been? Joe.

[00:17:20] joe: No. Yep.

[00:17:21] Chris_G: Okay. How many people underestimated this movie? Saw the… No, figured it out? I mean, these are industry giants that are like, “Eh, I’m not gonna go with that. No.” I think M and Ms

I mean, like you said, Eminem said that this is gonna be too scary of a movie, yet Columbia said it’s gonna be too namby-pamby of a movie.

[00:17:37] joe: All right. So I

really can’t, I can’t hold my guns anymore.

[00:17:40] Chris_G: He’s

[00:17:40] georgia: gonna say something that’s gonna piss you off. I, just you’re

[00:17:43] Chris_G: lucky I even came back for this

one.

Because,

[00:17:46] joe: this

[00:17:46] nick: movie.

[00:17:47] Chris_G: ’cause we know collectively what you actually thought of this back in ’82.

[00:17:52] joe: ’82. Y- you’re right. I went and saw The Thing. I begged my dad to take me to it as a seven-year-old. I

loved …it.

Yeah. I did see E.T., and I must admit [00:18:00] I wasn’t impressed.

As a seven-year-old, I just recently watched it as a much older adult,

[00:18:06] Chris_G: Push that waah,

[00:18:07] Mary: button.

[00:18:07] georgia: And it

[00:18:09] joe: a

good mo- I think it was a family-friendly, simple plot movie, but I didn’t think, in terms of a movie,

there was nothing great about it.

[00:18:20] georgia: I agree. Oof.

[00:18:20] joe: Mm-hmm. I-

[00:18:21] Chris_G: don’t think it …was

[00:18:21] joe: it was some great

[00:18:22] georgia: Oh my gosh. Like, it’s still great.

[00:18:24] nick: at least- It’s a kids movie.

Like- You

[00:18:26] joe: this up

with the ’82 movies- that

were

[00:18:29] Chris_G: all

[00:18:30] georgia: all

[00:18:30] joe: innovative

[00:18:31] Chris_G: I think Chris feels like-

[00:18:32] joe: E.T. was the only one on

that list that wasn’t very innovative.

[00:18:36] Chris_G: It was

[00:18:37] georgia: was innovative.

What in the heck are you talking about? Well,

[00:18:41] joe: So

that’s where

[00:18:41] nick: has

left the studio. Oh, geez.

He’s

breaking things. Chris,

stop.

[00:18:46] georgia: It

[00:18:47] joe: a

good

[00:18:47] Chris_G: He’s, He’s

[00:18:47] nick: a Halloween

costume. I, I have to disagree. And sh-

[00:18:48] Mary: his E.T. mask-

[00:18:49] Chris_G: has

[00:18:49] Mary: He has an E.T. Hal- like a Halloween mask on.

[00:18:52] georgia: have

disagree. I disagree.

[00:18:54] joe: his ET mask- What? … he had like a Halloween mask and then she- I have to disagree. I disagree. Oh, that’s

fine. I’m

sure- I

[00:18:56] georgia: loved

[00:18:56] joe: how many billions

of dollars disagree with me, but

[00:18:58] georgia: I

[00:18:59] joe: I didn’t. think it [00:19:00] was,

[00:19:00] georgia: at the time, and I might’ve been a little ol- older than seven but I loved it at the time, and I still love it. I just, I don’t… How can you-

[00:19:09] nick: But is it because you like children’s media?

[00:19:12] georgia: Like No.

[00:19:14] nick: are you

child? Joe gets the

[00:19:16] Chris_G: children- Are

[00:19:16] joe: you a children’s

librarian by any chance?

[00:19:18] Chris_G: any chance? No. I’ve- Some feelings are gonna get hurt tonight, folks.

[00:19:21] joe: All right. All right.

[00:19:21] Mary: Oh, yeah.

[00:19:22] Chris_G: Starting with mine.

[00:19:23] georgia: starting with mine.

[00:19:24] nick: Here

it comes. I,

[00:19:26] georgia: I

know. I, I- Okay, Mary, where

[00:19:28] Chris_G: Please, Mary,

save

[00:19:29] joe: anything yet,

[00:19:29] georgia: Yes.

[00:19:30] Mary: I wanna defend E.T. because I-

[00:19:33] joe: it …I

[00:19:33] Mary: if defend it, well, from Joe who’s being so mean.

[00:19:37] joe: being so mean.

[00:19:38] Mary: I watched the vlast…

We went to go see it, it was, you know… Well, I lived in rural Virginia, so going to the movie theater was an event. , you had to get dressed up and… I mean, not like in your Sunday best or anything, but you know, you…

was-

[00:19:52] georgia: was- It was an event

[00:19:53] Chris_G: it

[00:19:53] joe: was,

you

had to…

[00:19:54] Mary: Yeah, exactly. You had to make an effort to get to the movie theater. And oh, my [00:20:00] gosh, just loved it so much. And I just thought, “You know what? The heck.” I haven’t actually seen it since I was 10, right, when I first saw it in the

[00:20:08] joe: Oh, maybe you should. And

[00:20:10] Mary: I did. I saw it yesterday, and I loved it.

I just I, yeah, no notes. It was j- it was just great. Yeah there’s holes in it- Yeah … but that’s okay. I don’t care.

[00:20:20] georgia: And I didn’t feel like it was just a kids movie. No.

[00:20:23] Mary: No, not at

[00:20:23] georgia: it was like a human movie. Yeah. Which is funny ’cause it’s about a human and an alien.

[00:20:28] Mary: It’s very sentimental, yeah. And that was

[00:20:31] joe: point of it, right? And, Yeah

explore humanity through this alien that came-

Well-

[00:20:36] nick: Elliot right away starts teaching it the worst things.

Like he teaches him about war. He goes ahead and shows him the f- food chain. He goes, “This is a fish. He’s mine, but the shark eats the fish, and no one will eat the shark ’cause he’s on top.”

[00:20:54] Mary: Well,

[00:20:54] joe: that’s

[00:20:55] georgia: true.

[00:20:55] nick: Yes, but he’s teaching this to an alien

who

would essentially [00:21:00] be on top of the food chain considering they’ve made it here. And guess what? They can invade the whole planet because they’ve already been here.

[00:21:07] Mary: And they didn’t. But

[00:21:09] nick: E.T.

was a- no. No. no. no.

[00:21:11] joe: Yeah.

[00:21:11] Chris_G: Negative Nancy.

[00:21:13] joe: Yeah.

[00:21:13] Mary: Right.

[00:21:14] nick: Not yet.

[00:21:15] joe: Right.

right.

ET could have been a-

Four years … …a youth, a adolescent,

and-

[00:21:21] nick: Or the

[00:21:22] joe: The adults,

[00:21:23] nick: of them … a scientist, right Like, they were there gathering information about us. Why

[00:21:27] joe: think more evidence is that he’s- You know?

a youngster

Wasn’t

[00:21:30] Chris_G: he a

scout?

[00:21:31] joe: A scout. Yeah.

His powers weren’t

quite under control. He had some, you

know-

[00:21:35] nick: He almost killed Elliot.

[00:21:37] joe: the

whole psychic link thing was kind of,

[00:21:40] Chris_G: Which time?

[00:21:41] Mary: Which time?

[00:21:41] georgia: Which time?

[00:21:42] nick: Thank you for that one.

[00:21:45] joe: But yeah, I think that was a-

[00:21:47] nick: Oh, got it.

[00:21:48] Mary: So what was your experience like watching E.T. for the first time, Chris?

[00:21:53] Chris_G: Oh, I thought you were throwing it over to

[00:21:55] Mary: to me? Yeah, no, yeah. You

[00:21:55] joe: the shirt. I mean, you’re decked

out. I mean, you

[00:21:57] Mary: wanna ask our guests.

[00:21:58] Chris_G: here. Yeah. I

said [00:22:00] this during the Gremlins

[00:22:00] joe: podcast.

[00:22:01] georgia: podcast.

[00:22:01] nick: podcast.

[00:22:01] Mary: podcast- … that

[00:22:02] georgia: That I-

[00:22:03] Chris_G: have been friends with Joe- when we were seven in ’82. He’d have been over to my house for lunch. Maybe not dinner,

[00:22:11] joe: but

definitely

[00:22:12] Chris_G: lunch. Because- Sleepovers

[00:22:14] Mary: an image.

[00:22:15] nick: Not

[00:22:15] Chris_G: well- Lunch

[00:22:16] joe: Yeah, right.

[00:22:17] Chris_G: The problem is y- you are a seven-year-old that has seen The Thing, that has seen movies that I definitely-

[00:22:25] joe: Fangoria, be like, “Here you go.” I like

[00:22:27] Mary: not at seven. I was-

[00:22:29] joe: At seven, yeah. Yeah. Heavy

Metal.

[00:22:30] nick: Yeah. Wait, you didn’t have a friend who you went to their house and they showed you the films that your parents wouldn’t let you watch?

[00:22:37] joe: at seven.

[00:22:38] nick: Oh, yeah.

[00:22:39] Chris_G: At nine and 10, yes.

[00:22:41] joe: Yeah,

[00:22:42] Chris_G: nine and 10, I’m starting to watch you know, Revenge of the Nerds, the movies that are showing a little more skin than your average.

[00:22:48] joe: Hey, Millie, let’s watch Alien.

Let’s go. Let’s do it.

[00:22:52] Chris_G: all about it. It- That’s it … when I was seven, though, and I’m collecting Garbage Pail Kids, and, you know, I’m, I’m-

[00:22:59] joe: yeah, no, I did

[00:23:00] that, too. Yeah.

[00:23:00] Chris_G: I got Hot Wheels on

[00:23:01] joe: the I got, yeah, Hot Wheels, Transformer. Well, that would’ve been a little bit, you know, close, but yeah.

[00:23:05] Chris_G: trying to make us different, and he’s like, “I had that too.

[00:23:07] joe: Yeah. Next.” Yeah.

yeah.

[00:23:09] Chris_G: “I had that too. Next. What

[00:23:10] nick: are you

We’re the exact

same. You just didn’t watch The Thing. Right.

[00:23:12] joe: I

was just

[00:23:13] Chris_G: of-

[00:23:13] joe: Expressing, you know, kind of the psychological trauma.

[00:23:16] georgia: could you

[00:23:17] Chris_G: Could you still be friends with

[00:23:20] georgia: The fact he didn’t like E.T., would you still be friends with him?

[00:23:24] Chris_G: That might have been a deal breaker-

[00:23:25] georgia: Yeah.

[00:23:26] Chris_G: in

’82. breaker. Yeah. And

[00:23:28] joe: I, it just wasn’t… It didn’t rate up. I thought it was an okay mo- Actually, I didn’t really enjoy the movie when I- No,

I, I thought you said it was a good movie

You’re

[00:23:33] georgia: you said it was a

good movie- Yeah, but that’s- And now you’re saying an okay movie

I did

[00:23:37] Chris_G: not- Don’t

romanticize it

[00:23:38] georgia: it …I

[00:23:38] joe: not enjoy the movie. I really didn’t. Like, I would watch, I mean,

The Thing. Any of these movies on the list,

you know, Blade Runner, I mean, I watched all those movies. Star Trek, Wrath of

[00:23:49] Chris_G: I mean- You brought up Wrath of Khan. I, I, in my research for tonight, I didn’t realize that those two were on the same- yeah

within the same m- Yeah … 60 days or so. Right, yeah. The [00:24:00] complex that movie gave me every time I put a Q-tip.

[00:24:04] joe: the

[00:24:04] Mary: right?

Yeah.

[00:24:05] joe: That’s right, the ear- Oh. We had talked about doing a earworm episode, not only earworm, as in sounds that get stuck in your head,

but- Bro … literally an earworm. That’s a real earworm. I

[00:24:14] Chris_G: time. Every

[00:24:15] joe: season

[00:24:16] Chris_G: That’s daily. Yeah. Get on in there, and you’re like, “Okay.

[00:24:20] joe: yeah.

God! Yeah.

[00:24:21] nick: You want them out.

[00:24:22] joe: It is one of the…

I, yes, no.

[00:24:24] Mary: Nothing is better than a Q-tip in the ear.

[00:24:26] joe: No, except a-

[00:24:27] Mary: It’s the

[00:24:28] joe: except some sort of mind-controlling worm. No. Speaking of

mind

controlling, that was

E.T.’s thing, right?

[00:24:33] Mary: Anyway, so, back to your ex- your experience watching E.T. It

[00:24:36] Chris_G: the greatest. Yeah. I walked out of that, oh, man.

[00:24:41] Mary: I- Magic

[00:24:42] Chris_G: I

forgot to eat the popcorn, Joe. That’s how enthralled I was in this. And by the way, it is an exercise in product placement.

is. Sweet Lord, I stopped writing them down. I watched this movie last night or the night before.

[00:24:55] joe: yep.

Yeah, we were t- you t- yep.

[00:24:57] georgia: kind of beer was E.T.

drinking?

[00:24:59] Mary: What[00:25:00]

[00:25:00] Chris_G: of beer was E.T. drinking? Yeah.

‘Cause I was drinking Miller Lite while I was watching it Who knows? He was drinking Coors?

[00:25:04] georgia: I wanna say it was Coobers. It was Coors.

[00:25:05] joe: it was Coors. Yep. Yeah.

[00:25:06] Chris_G: Yeah. Yeah. And,

[00:25:08] joe: and-

yep, yep.

yep.

[00:25:10] Chris_G: Yeah, and-

and- He can &spell …

sending that

[00:25:12] joe: and

[00:25:13] georgia: Oh, I

[00:25:13] Chris_G: list. I have- it’s an ugly it’s an ugly

[00:25:16] joe: a list, we

love

[00:25:16] georgia: had

[00:25:17] Mary: Oh, yeah. What’s

[00:25:18] nick: Star Wars? I’m

[00:25:19] joe: I’ma

get my Mac and Me

list- Yeah … ’cause that

was

[00:25:21] nick: Oh.

[00:25:21] joe: pla-

[00:25:23] Mary: Oh, Mac and Me.

[00:25:26] Chris_G: my goodness.

[00:25:26] joe: Yeah. Oh, man. was, that was- the best,

that

[00:25:27] Chris_G: best, that was the better- So I don’t think- I feel like I’m being dared

[00:25:29] nick: think, I don’t think- I remember being dared

to watch that.

[00:25:31] Chris_G: say, I don’t think

[00:25:32] georgia: Chris will ever come back.

So- All

[00:25:34] nick: All right.

So- I don’t act- I didn’t see E.T. in theaters, right? I saw it with my brother on VHS in the ’90s. He’s already seen it,

[00:25:44] Chris_G: That’s acceptable, by the way. Like,

[00:25:46] nick: it wasn’t the same experience that you guys were all able to have, like. Right. And then seeing it last night I would gladly show my daughter, because it’s a kids friendly movie that I can be like, “Yeah, sure. Why not?” But as [00:26:00] an adult, I’m like, again, I’m old and cynical and I hate everything.

[00:26:04] Mary: Except Spider-Man movies.

[00:26:05] nick: It was too- Exactly.

It was

[00:26:07] georgia: It was too sweet for you then. It was,

[00:26:09] nick: like-

seeing

the stuff and being like, “Oh,

I’m

noticing the flaws in it this time.” Seeing the scientists coming in astronaut suits. Why are they

coming- you would do that … their hazmat suits are available at

this time.

[00:26:24] georgia: because of

the-

[00:26:25] joe: They have a

[00:26:26] nick: a full astronaut suit.

[00:26:28] joe: I

think the… Right. The, I

think- This- … hazmat suits would’ve

been, but in ’82 we gotta think.

’82?

You would wear- They were available

hazmat suits.

You would be concerned about planetary contamination. That breaks down though that they knew E.T. had been on the planet for a few weeks, a month, and did nothing about it. So we now have a potential biohazard just roaming around-

[00:26:54] nick: is when hazmat suits were made. Maybe. Or generally.

[00:26:57] Chris_G: that’s not true.

[00:26:59] joe: [00:27:00] contact.

[00:27:01] Chris_G: Oh. Michael J. Fox had a hazmat suit in 1955- Yeah … in a barn next to a DeLorean.

[00:27:05] joe: 40s,

[00:27:06] georgia: Yeah, I said

[00:27:06] Chris_G: I will have you know. Yeah?

[00:27:07] joe: said 40s. That’s before 50.

[00:27:10] Chris_G: ’50. Oh, yeah. Oh, I don’t teach

[00:27:12] joe: sorry.

[00:27:12] Chris_G: I don’t teach math.

[00:27:13] joe: I was like, “

Oh,

[00:27:15] Chris_G: I swear I thought you said 60.

I apologize. I swear I thought you said 1960. I’m glad we

can edit. ’50. I’m glad we can edit this

[00:27:24] nick: Nope, that’s, that all stays in, man. Chris is ready d- no, what, what year did you say? I swear you said ’60. Oh.

[00:27:31] joe: He did say 40s. Yeah. He did say 40s. Yeah. yeah. My But anyway, that’s okay.

[00:27:34] Chris_G: Yeah, that’s okay. My

[00:27:34] joe: do a lot of research, but when he does it’s I

I think about it

[00:27:38] georgia: And it just seems like those, the, the scientists, like, in the, like, whoever Peter Coyote’s character would’ve been and all them, it seems like they would’ve came to that house- They would’ve come to see him

and they would’ve just rushed in, and not waited until they left

[00:27:54] joe: would’ve taken Elliot

[00:27:55] georgia: Elliott away. Don’t you think? They

[00:27:56] joe: house. They just, like, come in- I don’t know why he was

allowed to be

[00:27:58] georgia: They would just, like, [00:28:00] come in and, “

[00:28:00] joe: the

room. Let ’em,

let this kid have…” No,

all of that,

the

whole mi- And …that, that was

I think that was a Spielberg kind of thread though from Close Encounters. I watched Close Encounters also ’cause, you know, some people say that’s the prequel to E.T.

and now Disclosure is the end cap of the trilogy. Yeah. And I haven’t seen Disclosure Day, so. But watching, Close Encounters there was a mistrust of the government. Well-

[00:28:23] nick: they were also listening in to their citizens

[00:28:26] joe: and the

movie, and I don’t know which several countries had banned E.T.

because they thought it led to mistrust between adults and kids and the military and government complexes. So it was like, “Oh, we don’t want that kind of-“

But

then, Um,

[00:28:41] georgia: they

[00:28:41] joe: and it-

was interesting that you had that

[00:28:44] georgia: worse, or much more- You

[00:28:45] joe: have watched the thing.

I mean, that’s

[00:28:47] georgia: No, what I’m saying, though,

[00:28:48] Chris_G: I’m from the government, I’m here to help

[00:28:50] joe: right.

[00:28:50] georgia: What I’m saying is that those government scientists and those, you know, the government- Yeah … and the scientists, they could’ve been a lot- More [00:29:00] forceful and a lot more But

[00:29:01] joe: they probably

would’ve been, right?

Yeah. I I think if E- the, the real situation, ET came, they knew he landed or it landed. I don’t know if, I think it was a male. But you know, you would’ve, they would’ve taken it immediately to some complex to study.

Elliot,

if they realized had some psychic link, would’ve been taken. His whole family, that house would’ve been quarantined.

That town, I think it would’ve just been shut down because E.T.,

not only

he was in the environment, so microbes birds, plants, dirt, soil samples, other people he interacted with, the stuff they interacted with that he interacted with. He was laying in a water source,

probably

contaminating it- … dying. So now we got decaying, dead alien material in a water

source, and no one even told the town.

They’re

just drinking their cups of water, happy

as can be, man. I think , they just went along with

[00:29:54] Chris_G: I think the move is put a giant Ziploc bag around the entire house and just let them all cook.

[00:29:59] georgia: [00:30:00] That’s

[00:30:00] joe: giant zip lock bag around the entire house and just let him all cook. Right, that’s what

I’m saying. I think the movie didn’t handle that correctly.

[00:30:03] nick: They didn’t do a good job at that

either. They

[00:30:05] georgia: They did

[00:30:05] Chris_G: not handle it at all.

[00:30:07] joe: They did not handle it at all. No, right,

[00:30:08] Chris_G: they just,

[00:30:09] nick: They-

[00:30:09] Chris_G: they wrapped it in Saran Wrap and said, “We’re gonna deal with it later.”

[00:30:12] joe: of plot, they just kind of-

[00:30:13] georgia: They did

[00:30:14] joe: deal with that

[00:30:14] georgia: bag around it … they did have actual doctors though playing those, that scene where they were like w- you know-

[00:30:21] Chris_G: So

[00:30:21] Mary: the chatter would be more realistic, what they’re talking about? Yeah. And

[00:30:24] joe: And the whole

[00:30:25] nick: Can you confirm something for me?

[00:30:26] joe: can

[00:30:27] nick: In the or- original, I remember them shooting at them while on the bikes. Is that-

[00:30:32] Mary: Is that-

[00:30:32] georgia: right. Is that- Mm-hmm …

like,

[00:30:34] Chris_G: I m- They definitely had guns drawn. If they fired or not, I couldn’t

[00:30:38] joe: didn’t fire

[00:30:39] georgia: they fired. They fired,

[00:30:39] Mary: don’t remember

[00:30:41] joe: redid.

[00:30:42] Chris_G: He-

Well …

[00:30:42] joe: edited. Oh, go ahead. Oh. No, that’s what… Yeah, he edited, yeah, He

[00:30:45] Chris_G: redid it in, in-

[00:30:46] nick: he-

[00:30:46] georgia: And he put walkie-talkies,

[00:30:48] Chris_G: CGI’d walkie-talkies into the thing.

[00:30:49] nick: there were more guns,

[00:30:51] joe: were more guns,

[00:30:51] Chris_G: Oh, right when the boys take off- That’s

[00:30:53] joe: right.

They all

draw

[00:30:54] Chris_G: guns. in

[00:30:55] nick: only seen one shotgun in that film. Yeah,

[00:30:57] joe: have guns. When

they go into

the van, they have the guns [00:31:00] drawn. They’re looking at, you know. So yeah, the

guns

[00:31:01] Chris_G: a very deliberate ch. I mean, there was

[00:31:03] joe: shotguns. The guy, he’s the…

[00:31:05] georgia: Yeah. When the one-

[00:31:06] joe: said he he didn’t, that’s the one thing he feels bad about when he redid it, and he tells people, “Go watch the original. Don’t watch the reissued movie because, .”

[00:31:15] Chris_G: Well, we’re different now, too.

[00:31:17] georgia: up there.

[00:31:17] joe: Yeah, well, yeah. Yeah, we’re circle back. But- List. List.

We should be

listing. Yo, you got a list?

[00:31:23] georgia: Go

[00:31:23] Mary: ahead, please.

[00:31:24] joe: please. Yep.

[00:31:24] Chris_G: Like right off the top. I mean, th- this is ridiculous. Like, what would it take for even, like, a sitcom to have this many products- in the first 10 minutes? I mean, the, the whole fridge. I mean, you can see everything.

Coca-Cola, Raid, Fresca, Fresca, Tab. Oh, y- you can- Tab. Oh, love me some Tab. Tab. Sun-Maid raisins, Fritos, Hills Brothers Chutes and Ladders, Stratego, the Star Wars toys. And if you watch the same- Oh, yeah … The same documentary that I did on the making of E.T., just

[00:31:55] joe: the little

[00:31:55] Chris_G: cat and mouse that they did with

[00:31:57] nick: right George Lucas?

[00:31:58] Chris_G: Spielberg and Lucas.

[00:31:59] joe: had

a bet, [00:32:00] right? From Star Wars and was it Close Encounters? I’m trying to think which two movies, but they made a bet which one would be bigger, and then they lost the bet. So that was,

[00:32:10] Chris_G: a- I think George wins right there. Well-

Like, by a lot.

[00:32:12] joe: Yep. Well,

[00:32:13] georgia: I guess George Lucas put in E.T.

characters in one of his films.

[00:32:18] Chris_G: in one of his films. Oh, definitely. Phantom Menace. Right? Oh, yeah.

[00:32:20] georgia: So,

and then- Which

[00:32:21] Chris_G: me to a question that I’m pointing right at Nick. I was gonna wait. I was gonna throw

[00:32:25] joe: the- They had one

[00:32:26] Mary: one.

[00:32:26] Chris_G: Is E.T.

[00:32:28] joe: a Jedi?

Right.

Because he

[00:32:30] Chris_G: he is- Oh …

[00:32:32] joe: Right

[00:32:32] Chris_G: in the Star Wars universe. Oh, yeah. Look at his abilities.

[00:32:36] nick: I don’t think he’s a

[00:32:36] joe: a scene-

[00:32:37] nick: Jedi, but I do think that are, there are people, or creatures in his species that could be, just because

he looked at Yoda-

[00:32:46] georgia: he’s not a Jedi? Because he’s too young.

[00:32:47] joe: Jedi? Well,

[00:32:48] nick: ’cause he’s too young

[00:32:49] joe: I was

[00:32:49] Chris_G: he’s a Padawan.

[00:32:50] nick: Padawan.

Yes Like he

[00:32:50] Chris_G: He’s possibly on his

[00:32:51] georgia: become

[00:32:52] nick: he’s also has he feels love and stuff. So if he does go down the-

[00:32:57] joe: gonna say,

in the

[00:32:58] nick: If he does

go down this lane, [00:33:00] he will become a Sith Lord because- no, no

yes, because he has love- Well-

Which means-

[00:33:05] Chris_G: cynical. All right. all

right. I wanna

[00:33:06] joe: Hold on. Can I add something

here?

[00:33:08] Chris_G: why I threw

[00:33:09] nick: Hold on. Can I interject in here? Why I threw it in.

[00:33:11] joe: bolster that.

the movie when you watch it, during the Halloween scene,

[00:33:15] nick: sees Yoda

[00:33:16] Chris_G: he

[00:33:16] joe: says Yoda- Of course …

and he

looks at him and he goes, “Home.” Yeah. He goes, Home.”

Home.” So is

Yoda

in… You know, if he’s now on the council and he knows that, is a, is he a Padawan? Is he being trained? Is he b- I’m just adding that in for the listeners that if they haven’t

watched

a movie, that

th-

this connection isn’t

just loosely Spielberg, Lucas.

But it was, there, there

actually- was this,

[00:33:38] nick: in. I

think-

[00:33:38] Chris_G: Yep. Yep. So.

But in the first showing that George Lucas saw in a theater with Spielberg sitting next to him- All, all Spielberg told Lucas was, “There’s something in this movie.

There’s something in this for you.”

[00:33:50] joe: Lucas and Spielberg both had their movies coming out in ’77.

Yeah. And Lucas was convinced Star Wars w- would flop, and Spielberg’s movie was a guaranteed hit. [00:34:00] So talk about people mis- misreading the

[00:34:02] Chris_G: the room.

[00:34:02] joe: They made a friendly bet. Each gave each other 2.5% of the respective film profits.

Wow. Lucas lost catastrophically.

So yeah, so, so yeah. So they’re really good friends.

They had this kind of relationship going and yeah, no, so you, you see that in their movies and back and forth with the product

placement and have that. And they’re in the same universe, obviously, E.T.

and-

Oh, yes … Yeah …right. Because

in In the council scene, you have ETs in there.

[00:34:31] Chris_G: So- Him being able to lift

[00:34:33] joe: Wars, the

[00:34:33] Chris_G: by thinking about it. He’s, he can read minds. He can t- he

can tell

[00:34:38] joe: can heal. Yeah,

[00:34:39] nick: Yeah,

[00:34:39] Chris_G: he can heal.

[00:34:41] joe: Yeah, handwaviums.

Well,

[00:34:43] Chris_G: I’m Telling

[00:34:43] nick: you. what was

[00:34:43] Mary: gonna

[00:34:44] joe: Handwaviums . I

[00:34:44] georgia: say? Oh, I was gonna say,

[00:34:45] Chris_G: If it walks like

[00:34:46] joe: a duck,

[00:34:47] Chris_G: quacks like a duck…

[00:34:49] georgia: know there’s an animated E.T. show, right? Isn’t there? There

[00:34:53] nick: there is.

[00:34:54] georgia: I think there is.

[00:34:55] nick: Are you talking about ALF?

[00:34:57] georgia: No, I

think there’s an actual

[00:34:58] joe: Oh, man.

[00:34:59] Chris_G: But [00:35:00]

[00:35:00] georgia: I was gonna say is-

[00:35:01] Chris_G: Oh,

[00:35:02] nick: No. I think it’s- … I don’t remember what I was gonna say. Oh, sorry, Chris. That one hurt

wasn’t…

[00:35:03] Mary: sigh heard round the

[00:35:04] nick: was gonna ask, do

[00:35:06] georgia: do you think they could make an E.T. m- an E.T. movie, another one?

Like, could they connect it? Could they? Yeah, could they

[00:35:13] nick: it?

We’ll make

[00:35:14] Chris_G: anything. We’ll throw- Could they- … a new version of something out

[00:35:17] georgia: out? Could they do it well?

[00:35:18] joe: Spielberg- Yeah …would-

Yeah …it

[00:35:20] Chris_G: would be over his dead body.

[00:35:21] joe: Yeah. Yeah. I, I think he thought about, there

was a sequel he thought about, but I think it, he just thought

it would

[00:35:27] georgia: part of the Star Wars- Yes

universe.

[00:35:30] nick: That’s also owned by Disney now- I know

and George Lucas gave up his

[00:35:34] georgia: E.T.

[00:35:34] nick: E.T. versus

[00:35:35] Chris_G: Predator

[00:35:36] georgia: But I

[00:35:39] joe: E.T. versus Alien. We can just go, we can run through…

I got some notes and all, but I was gonna talk about the telekinesis scene and the bikes and the moon. Can’t happen. The perspectives are all wrong.

So you

really can’t have the bikes. The moon size would mean the moon would be too close to Earth, which would be catastrophic, [00:36:00] and it just wouldn’t…

They’d be too high. It just wouldn’t, it just wouldn’t work.

It was

[00:36:04] Chris_G: deGrasse Tyson in the room

right now. So good to meet you, sir.

[00:36:08] joe: that’d be doctor,

cause, so

[00:36:10] Chris_G: Oh, b-

[00:36:11] georgia: What’d you s- what did

[00:36:13] Chris_G: With a Scottish accent? Whoa. Dr. deGrasse.

[00:36:14] georgia: deGrasse, Doctor,

[00:36:15] joe: DeGrace, Dr., you know, Taylor,

Dr. Austin.

Yes, that’s right.

[00:36:19] nick: I don’t think Joe

has ever pulled the

doctor

card.

[00:36:22] Mary: Doctor.

[00:36:23] Chris_G: If he pull, if they pull the mister

[00:36:24] nick: card.

[00:36:25] joe: whoever the hell it is. yes. Ever pulled doctor. Doctor … and people, they pull a Mr. Card and

I gotta pull like, you know-

[00:36:27] Chris_G: I gotta pull the doctor. It’s like

[00:36:28] joe: on

the draw

four down,

right?

[00:36:30] nick: Joe’s come for blood this

episode. Well, yeah. But you have

[00:36:33] joe: you have the

whole- Come on

I mean, I think the, the silhouette is probably there.

The just the geometry wouldn’t work

[00:36:39] Mary: You’re right. I hate it now.

[00:36:41] nick: yeah. That’s all we were looking for this episode.

[00:36:46] Chris_G: this

[00:36:46] georgia: gonna say, is there any other science that we can talk about?

We could talk about the,

[00:36:50] Chris_G: talk about the

[00:36:51] georgia: the

[00:36:51] joe: you get- The- The, the psychic link

[00:36:53] georgia: and- We could talk about that kind of- And then he goes and it

[00:36:55] joe: even work. There’s

no-

[00:36:57] Chris_G: Oh my

[00:36:58] joe: Get out. Is it [00:37:00] chemical?

[00:37:00] Chris_G: Gee. All

[00:37:01] joe: All right. here’s my

proof how bogus. Even in the movie …they ruin…

[00:37:05] georgia: wasn’t.

[00:37:05] Chris_G: they

ru-

[00:37:06] nick: Oh my God … they,

[00:37:07] joe: All right, listen.

Chris,

[00:37:08] Chris_G: check

[00:37:08] Mary: out- I can’t imagine, like, watching any… Did you… When you watched The Thing, did you go, “That would never happen”?

[00:37:15] Chris_G: You

know what? You know what?

You know

[00:37:16] joe: can, yeah.

[00:37:17] Chris_G: You

[00:37:18] Mary: okay.

[00:37:18] joe: never-

Okay … go-

[00:37:19] Mary: and go, “Wait

[00:37:20] joe: and go, “Wait a second … a little bit longer. We’ll give it a little bit-

[00:37:21] nick: Okay. So- Little bit

[00:37:21] Mary: does somebody detach their own head and go scrolling around?” Okay,

[00:37:26] joe: Go listen to

The Thing episode.

We dug in all that. I am I pass out the handwavium checks to everyone.

But

the

psychic thing really, even in the m- in the show, in the movie, you have it. They got this connection, they get drunk together, they do all this stuff, but E.T.’s dying somewhere. Elliott goes off, and then he can’t locate

him.

Like, what happened to your link now? Where’s your link at? Like why’s …your

brother gotta go out and do this whole thing? And then you link back up. I think the whole thing there, it was like a total plot handwavium device and it [00:38:00] just… That, that part, if you’re gonna keep consistent.

Elliott should’ve been like, “Oh, he’s at the river, the, the creek-

[00:38:06] Chris_G: Need some

[00:38:07] joe: lotion. Get out there

[00:38:09] Mary: He has

counselor Troy Powers.

[00:38:10] nick: all right.

In defense of E.T. Tan rubber

[00:38:12] joe: man

[00:38:13] Chris_G: Tan rubber man comes down from space.

[00:38:15] joe: finger glow.

[00:38:16] Chris_G: His belly and his finger glow, and he can do all this awesome stuff, and Joe’s problem-

[00:38:21] joe: can’t use it. He doesn’t have

[00:38:23] Chris_G: is the telekinesis.

[00:38:26] nick: doesn’t have GPS yet. It’s

[00:38:27] Chris_G: Sorry, Dr. Joe. No. I was way off.

[00:38:30] nick: problems also- I was way off. Sorry

[00:38:31] joe: breathes

our

air,

eats our food, metabolically… No, all that’s a problem, too. I ain’t even getting into the life. Georgia brought up the psychic link, and that’s why I went

[00:38:39] nick: now that

[00:38:40] joe: But now you brought up

the food

issue. Yes,

all that is also a a pro- I’m gonna chew

[00:38:48] georgia: Pieces

[00:38:48] Chris_G: That’s a Reese’s piece of

[00:38:48] georgia: for

[00:38:49] Chris_G: my candy right into your

[00:38:50] nick: Those are

M&M’s. Product

[00:38:53] Chris_G: Oh,

are you eating the

[00:38:54] nick: Oh, you’re eating the M&M’s?

Yeah, he doesn’t like Reese’s Pieces after the movie.

[00:38:58] joe: M&M’s? Yeah. Oh my gosh. After the

[00:38:59] Chris_G: movie.

[00:38:59] georgia: [00:39:00] I like these. That’s traitor. These are the best

[00:39:01] Chris_G: That was

the point. It was

supposed to be M&Ms. Mm-hmm.

[00:39:04] joe: That’s Traitor. Yeah, after the movie. That was the point. That was supposed to be M&M. Mm-hmm. The plants

also was an issue for me. I think that was a-

[00:39:08] Mary: that- Oh, like when it, when he was dying the

[00:39:10] joe: Star Trek thing. Yeah, the plants, the whole thing.

[00:39:12] georgia: and then when

[00:39:12] joe: because those weren’t plants. Those

are flowers, which I think leads

to a really interesting point about the species of E.T.,

because the flower is a reproductive organ, and it’s a terminal organ, so it produces the next generation of life. It was the issue I had with The Gremlins. That’s why I think it was a bioweapon, ’cause there was no cycle of life there. And so with the flower, which was interesting, is that he rejuvenated a reproductive organ that would produce new

life,

right?

So the

flower is

dead.

[00:39:43] georgia: what, Joe? That’s

when, that’s when- I don’t- …

it should

[00:39:46] Chris_G: I don’t- That should

[00:39:46] joe: that’s what…

That should die. I

mean, that,

the, the flower should die to give

to the seeds, and the seeds then you plant, and you get a new plant. So by him reactivating

or, or

[00:39:56] georgia: you know what?

[00:39:57] Chris_G: know what? Ladies and gentlemen, next week tune

[00:39:58] joe: in.

[00:39:59] nick: week tune in- … [00:40:00] to discuss

[00:40:00] Chris_G: the Easter Bunny.

[00:40:02] georgia: Is

that what

[00:40:04] Mary: lays eggs.

[00:40:04] georgia: said? I

mean, Joe, it could’ve just been a simple device

[00:40:09] joe: do you say? I mean, Joe, it could’ve just been a simple device

[00:40:10] georgia: Very

visual to show something dying and then something coming back and

living Exactly. You can use the

[00:40:16] Chris_G: plant

[00:40:16] joe: Why not just have

the plant do that?

why

[00:40:18] nick: Wait, what movie did

[00:40:19] Mary: do that? Yeah. Right? Or a bird. Wait, movie-

[00:40:19] nick: bird?

[00:40:19] joe: blooming and

[00:40:20] Mary: and the f- the flowering. Oh, yeah. Can I have another hot take?

Yes. Okay, I think that it’s really great. Okay, first of all, Drew Barrymore is so wonderful.

[00:40:30] georgia: I love her so much Yeah. Oh,

yeah.

She makes that

movie.

[00:40:33] Mary: really is. She reminds me so much of my sister. They’re about the same age, you know,

alligators in the sewer. They’re just so nutty. And

[00:40:41] nick: repeating

everything.

[00:40:43] Mary: I love that in ET…

Well, that ET starts to become more verbal through Gertie, through, through

[00:40:51] georgia: through Drew,

[00:40:51] Mary: Drew Barrymore’s

character, and he starts to feel, that’s fine.

[00:40:56] joe: He starts

[00:40:57] Mary: to feel pretty. He starts

to get in touch with his inner [00:41:00] girl, with, you know, he starts to dress up and I just love it. He starts

[00:41:03] joe: he like that? Or was that like when you- I mean, he starts- … you make up the dog …he starts to like And it’s just, full on-

and-

[00:41:08] nick: That’s how it Elliot was to

him.

[00:41:09] Mary: he seemed so happy how do you know if he was happy or I

[00:41:12] georgia: And

[00:41:13] nick: not?

[00:41:13] joe: assigning some emotions to him … he was so happy. He was just standing there, like, with

the wig on and

the,

[00:41:17] Mary: he was like, he starts he’s more verbal. He’s more engaged with his environment

[00:41:22] georgia: goes, “I taught him to talk.” I know.

[00:41:24] Mary: I know.

[00:41:25] georgia: so cute.

[00:41:26] joe: sweet.

[00:41:27] Mary: sweet.

Oh, I just,

[00:41:29] nick: you

know- Be good.

[00:41:30] Mary: buckets. Oh my gosh. Well, I, when I was 10, I was like, “I must not cry in this movie.” And like yesterday I was just,

[00:41:39] georgia: just let it go

[00:41:40] Mary: let it go …just let it go and just cried my eyes out.

[00:41:42] georgia: the fact that the mom was so frazzled that she just didn’t, like,

notice anything.

Well,

[00:41:47] Chris_G: hey, let’s

give- a- At all. Yeah.

[00:41:49] nick: Was

a single

mom right there.

We- She was doing a great

[00:41:53] joe: the

[00:41:53] Chris_G: She was doing a great job. And the beer cans, empty

beer cans. Yes. Thank you.

She looked

[00:41:56] nick: them and noticed. She was like, “Oh, these weren’t supposed to be emptied.”[00:42:00]

[00:42:00] joe: weren’t supposed to be empty.”

How does- Well, right,

the beer cans are all over. She didn’t really comment on that, and there

was a lot of beer cans

[00:42:04] Mary: you know what? She has three kids and she’s working. You know, stuff is gonna

[00:42:09] georgia: going on. And she’s dealing with-

[00:42:10] joe: And

she’s dealing with them. I mean-

[00:42:11] Mary: Exactly.

[00:42:11] georgia: She’s dealing with her hus- And

[00:42:12] Chris_G: 6,000- She’s dealing with her son

getting- Gertie was all of a sudden a foot shorter- Yeah … under a sheet.

[00:42:17] Mary: You know what?

[00:42:18] nick: Ooh. eye holes

[00:42:19] Chris_G: holes that were

feet away from each

[00:42:22] joe: you

remember these commercials?

[00:42:23] nick: You remember these commercials? Yes. And- And the wall

is good … that arm length. Ah. Do

[00:42:27] joe: you remember… Do you know where your children are?

[00:42:29] Chris_G: Of course.

[00:42:30] Mary: Oh,

[00:42:30] joe: so that’s the c-

[00:42:32] Chris_G: yeah. Oh, yeah.

[00:42:32] nick: Oh, yeah.

What was that?

[00:42:34] joe: In the ’80s.

What age are the kids? that

[00:42:37] georgia: 9, or 10. o’clock?

[00:42:38] joe: nine or 10 o’clock? Nine or 10. I don’t know. Maybe

both. And

they

[00:42:41] Mary: they

[00:42:41] georgia: And they’d be like, and they’d play it on the TV- Commercials … and they’d go,

and It wasn’t even a

commercial. It was like a PSA.

[00:42:46] joe: Yeah, and Like, stars. do you- They were like

[00:42:48] georgia: Do you know

where your children are?”

Yeah. Yeah. Grace

[00:42:51] joe: Jones was on it. I think she was one of them. Like, it’s like, “Do

you know-“

[00:42:54] Chris_G: run away from Grace Jones.

[00:42:56] joe: Do

you know where your

[00:42:56] Mary: would run

[00:42:57] nick: No. I got no clue.

[00:42:59] joe: [00:43:00] Yeah.

I was

[00:43:00] Mary: Jones is awesome.

[00:43:01] Chris_G: She

actually scared me

[00:43:03] joe: I was gonna point out something She does scare me …about the

adults in there. Something I had seen was that the first half of the film was shot so adults are never seen from the waist up. Mm-hmm. And it’s an interesting thing, and it was a tribute to the cartoons of Tex Avery.

And Tex Avery was the director of cartoons at MGM from like ’42 to ’54. Pretty much every cartoon that didn’t feature Tom and Jerry was his. And so Daffy Duck, Droopy, S- Screwy Squirrel, George and Junior, Chilly Willy, and he even coined, “What’s up, Doc?” at Bugs Bunny. So-

[00:43:33] nick: Rocky and Bullwinkle?

[00:43:35] joe: I don’t think that was- Oh.

[00:43:36] nick: Oh.

[00:43:37] Chris_G: If he just 15

[00:43:38] joe: That’s right, Yeah, big TV cartoons- I named Yeah. Be like, how about 16?

[00:43:43] nick: Yeah, I,

[00:43:43] georgia: I, I-

[00:43:44] nick: Well, I’m just saying-

[00:43:45] Mary: guess he’s not that

[00:43:46] nick: the art style

[00:43:46] Chris_G: looks…

[00:43:47] joe: Six- Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. I, I- Well, I

[00:43:48] nick: No, it’s that the art style looks very similar. That’s the only reason why I,

[00:43:51] joe: he do Mickey Mouse?

[00:43:52] Chris_G: That was some other guy.

[00:43:53] Mary: Yeah.

[00:43:54] joe: Yeah. but no, that was

[00:43:55] Chris_G: actually watching Tom and Jerry.

[00:43:57] joe: Okay. Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. They are. In in the living

room. [00:44:00] They are, yeah. Mm-hmm. yeah. But I

[00:44:01] Chris_G: the beer party starts.

[00:44:02] nick: artist- That was,

[00:44:03] joe: is that something… I mean,

[00:44:04] nick: he- ET

[00:44:05] joe: right up on that as an artist, I mean, and that style, and- Oh-

[00:44:08] georgia: Oh, they were watching, yeah … that slapstick and sat-

[00:44:10] joe: satirical humor that was in that.

I think that was something that was in there that they try,

[00:44:15] Chris_G: mean- It was definitely a zany scene … yeah.

[00:44:18] joe: right.

[00:44:19] nick: So Chris.

[00:44:20] joe: And

[00:44:20] Chris_G: alien

[00:44:20] joe: the beer, right. …That’s

right, yeah.

Yeah. That, that part of it was that whole, I think that was a nod back to, you know-

[00:44:27] Chris_G: I

would agree.

Yeah. I got you there. All right, Nick. Send it

[00:44:31] joe: back.

[00:44:31] nick: Yeah.

So you’d mentioned that there was connections to Gremlins.

How deep are these connections? What do you got? Like, I… You teased it real hard, and I wanna know now.

[00:44:42] Chris_G: Well, we touched upon it a few months back, that after E.T. was such a success, even though Spielberg said, “I’m not

[00:44:53] joe: 100%

[00:44:53] Chris_G: 100% sold on doing a sequel,” because he thinks he nailed it.

That, that was kind of gonna be his his swan song. Not [00:45:00] swan song, but his definite his masterpiece

That doesn’t mean scripts don’t get written because there’s script writers around every corner. So scripts were definitely written about what would happen if His species came back, and they weren’t all sweet

[00:45:15] nick: We did talk

about that.

[00:45:16] joe: they

weren’t

[00:45:17] Chris_G: quite as cuddly- Oh … as E.T.

And that became this, and that became this. In 1984, we got Gremlins. So that’s kinda- Nice … it’s kinda how that happened. Yeah,

[00:45:29] nick: So I had that

[00:45:30] Chris_G: out of the sky … like,

[00:45:33] nick: hot damn.

Really?

[00:45:35] Chris_G: Yeah. Yeah. I

[00:45:37] Mary: think that E.T.

is fascinating because how many movies do you see about aliens where the alien is friendly?

[00:45:46] joe: Oh.

[00:45:46] nick: Monsters vs. Aliens.

[00:45:48] Chris_G: And me, he’s got it

[00:45:49] nick: and Me.

[00:45:50] joe: Yeah, he’s

got it. I’ve got it, yeah.

[00:45:51] nick: Geez louise. Actually

[00:45:52] joe: you’re absolutely

[00:45:53] Mary: two more.

[00:45:54] joe: Most- most

[00:45:55] Chris_G: most aliens- So this does, yeah

[00:45:56] joe: you’ve led me right into a list. Thank you.

[00:45:58] Mary: All righty, please [00:46:00] do.

Well, I haven’t finished my… But go ahead, yes. In

[00:46:02] joe: cinema, The Day the Earth Stood Still. Mm-hmm. In 1951 that was a, a friendly, I mean, ish alien that came down. Came in peace and goodwill. Wanted people to chill.

[00:46:16] Chris_G: I was giving you that face because I was confusing that with War of the Worlds. Oh, right.

Pardon me.

[00:46:21] joe: I have another list that’s on, but in 1940 you had Henry Bates’ short story Farewell to the Master. So that was that was the original story for The Day the Earth Stood Still.

You had Arthur Clarke in ’53 Childhood’s End. You had the overseeing human evolution, you had just a, a kind, sweet alien. You had Murray Leinster’s First Contact in ’45. That was the first scientific concept and use of coined of the term first contact was in there. And it was a human and alien meet in deep space.

Neither can leave without risking the other going home, so they kinda were, there was a [00:47:00] standoff. There was no villain. It was just there. And then you had,

[00:47:02] nick: Mork and Mindy

[00:47:03] joe: Frank Russell’s Daredevil. What Mork and

[00:47:05] Chris_G: Mind- That’s in 1950.

[00:47:06] joe: 1950. I’m going

back.

[00:47:07] nick: sorry. I was confused by your timeline.

A lot

[00:47:09] joe: of these

were Cold War kind of aliens coming in to kind of, you know, “Why don’t you guys squash all the beef?”

And so a lot of these stories were in that vein. But you’re right. Up until these stories most the alien contact was was hostile, going all the way back to the 2nd century with Lucian of Samosata,

[00:47:29] nick: Samosata

[00:47:29] joe: a True Story,

which describes a visit to the moon and a war with the sun. And so that was kind of the first sci-fi

alien

kind of movie.

[00:47:40] Chris_G: All right, my research didn’t go quite-

[00:47:43] Mary: Back that far? Yeah.

[00:47:44] Chris_G: year two.

[00:47:45] joe: H- H.G.

Wells Yeah …is

where we think

a lot about and that was 1898, The War of the Worlds. People think that was the first kind of alien invasion, but you actually had a couple stories before that. Two Planets by Kurd [00:48:00] Lasswitz.

It was invaders.

[00:48:01] nick: Wait, I thought we were going friendly.

Wait … benevolent.

[00:48:03] joe: Well, I’m going to now… Pre the ’50s, most of the stories were about aliens coming down and just– And a lot of them were because of imperialism, colonialism, mirroring human dominance over another, going somewhere new, and then what would that look like in that ,

so War of, you know, kind of War of the Worlds.

And then The Germ Growers was in 1892 by Robert Potter, and that was credited as the very first alien invasion novel, featuring shapeshifting extraterrestrials that land in Australia outback to cultivate a deadly plague to wipe out humanity. So that’s that was there. So you

had- trust the Australians anyway.

And then all of this broke loose with the, Orson Welles’ War of the Worlds broadcast October 30th, 1938, which was this kind of bulletin, Martian invasion of New Jersey. You had this panic [00:49:00] Probably, , over- a little overblown. People did get freaked out, but most people knew it was a piece of fiction.

But you did have this thing where you could convince people that… And the frame it all, ’38, that was about 11 months before World War II started, so, it was tense. People thinking about invasions, things like that. So, but that’s it. So this is about, 44 years before E.T. The friendly…

But, you have this history of aliens coming, and they’re not here to make peace.

[00:49:28] Mary: And I think it’s interesting too when we have, like, those moments of, like, like panic, you know, you know, there’s times in our history that we welcome the str- the stranger.

[00:49:39] Chris_G: And

[00:49:39] Mary: there are times where we just assume that anyone different from us is hostile. Right.

[00:49:44] georgia: Right.

[00:49:45] Mary: So, and, I mean, have we had,

[00:49:47] joe: a…

[00:49:47] Mary: a…

Are

there any friendly alien movies that aren’t about,

[00:49:52] joe: you

know,

[00:49:53] Mary: that, like, expressly for kids?

[00:49:55] nick: Paul.

[00:49:55] Mary: Paul? Paul,

[00:49:56] nick: with Seth Rogen Simon Pegg, and Nick [00:50:00] Frost. Okay. Paul is an alien, and he just gets high with them all the time. It’s a really fun movie.

[00:50:05] Mary: Oh, that

[00:50:06] nick: They are

nerds that are, they write science fiction books

and- A

[00:50:10] Mary: with Simon Pegg?

[00:50:11] nick: I know, right? I- Oh. Normally he’s, like, the jock, right?

[00:50:15] joe: yeah. Yeah.

[00:50:15] Mary: yeah. Yeah.

[00:50:16] nick: Okay.

But highly recommend. It’s a good film. Okay.

[00:50:18] joe: Yeah.

[00:50:19] nick: and then Mork & Mindy came out b- before-

The ’70s,

E.T. ‘

[00:50:24] georgia: 70s, ‘

[00:50:24] Chris_G: 70s, yeah. Oh,

[00:50:24] joe: Yeah.

[00:50:24] nick: So that was a friendly alien before E.T.

[00:50:27] Mary: Yeah, and we’re sort of,

[00:50:28] joe: Was it My

[00:50:29] georgia: fave- my favorite Martian.

[00:50:31] joe: was what I was thinking. My

[00:50:32] georgia: was yeah, he was friendly.

[00:50:34] joe: Yep. Yeah.

Well,

I mean,

[00:50:35] Mary: like, dur- during, like, times where we… Well, I, actually there’s, during the ’50s famously intolerant of the stranger. But,

[00:50:42] nick: Yeah.

[00:50:42] Mary: I

[00:50:44] georgia: th- wonder, like- Yeah

yeah, like, immigrant rights- Mm-hmm … and, letting people, like, how that, like-

[00:50:50] joe: The,

[00:50:50] Mary: the panic around anything that’s, you know- Right … different, you know, that kind of thing. There is a … Well, I wanna go back. Oh, a couple minutes ago when we were talking about that [00:51:00] PSA, “Do you know where your children are?” You know, that kind of thing. It appears in a movie called V/H/S.

[00:51:06] joe: was…

Right. I

know. That was like, uh- Oh, Lord.

[00:51:08] Mary: Thank you.

[00:51:10] joe: It’s a …

[00:51:11] Mary: Have you, has anybody seen V/H/S/85?

[00:51:14] Chris_G: Yes.

[00:51:15] Mary: That’s a fun movie.

[00:51:16] Chris_G: No.

[00:51:17] nick: Love those movies. They do a great

job.

[00:51:19] Chris_G: just watched

[00:51:19] joe: I know what you’re talking about, but I haven’t, yep … VHS 85

[00:51:21] Mary: is probably one of my favorites probably because I was, like, at a … I was, like, 13 at, in ’85, so it was kind of formative for me. But, so I’m recognizing a lot of the stuff.

But in the movie, definitely for sure the alien is something- … Not to be trusted. Or maybe it’s coming in, and we assume it’s friendly to our detriment, that kind of thing.

[00:51:43] georgia: thing.

[00:51:43] Mary: If you … Yeah. If you’re … It’s a really as a … It’s a very uneven horror anthology, but I really recommend V/H/S 80- ’85 if you wanna

You know, it’s good and gory and scary

[00:51:57] Chris_G: and-

I’m gonna check

[00:51:57] Mary: and fun, and funny, too, so I like it a [00:52:00] lot.

[00:52:01] joe: There’s a- another

one- I had- Men In Black … oh, go

ahead. Men In Black, yep …but

[00:52:04] nick: just for you Chris, that Paul was very heavily inspired by E.T. Steven Spielberg shows up in the film as a cameo.

[00:52:12] Mary: Oh, man, what a score.

[00:52:13] nick: thought I’d let you know, because he ends up having a lot of the same Ending up having a lot of- … the aliens are, I mean, a lot of the aliens in there at the cantina hanging out, Rob Bottin was one of the cant- the players there in the band. But Rob

[00:52:26] Chris_G: Rob Bottin

[00:52:26] joe: who did all the practical effects for The Thing and

[00:52:29] georgia: had

[00:52:29] joe: other movies,

[00:52:29] georgia: in there.

[00:52:30] nick: man, are we talking about that

[00:52:31] Chris_G: bucket But I was gonna

[00:52:31] joe: I was gonna

say Star Wars, though,

was one where you had , the aliens were friendly. Close Encounters, they’re kind. They were friendly.

[00:52:38] Mary: Feel like the ’70s maybe were just a, maybe a friendlier time

[00:52:43] joe: I mean, maybe.

I don’t know.

It’s kind of- Yeah, yeah.

I know, yeah. I mean-

Yeah

[00:52:47] Mary: compared to now, I mean, the bar is on the floor now,

[00:52:50] georgia: Yeah.

[00:52:51] joe: yeah. Okay.

Yeah. And

[00:52:52] georgia: you know what I thought

[00:52:53] joe: you ha- you

also had in the ’70s Ridley Scott’s Alien. Which you know,

probably- Paul Rhodes

[00:52:58] georgia: That’s right.

[00:52:59] joe: right, yeah. So [00:53:00] you have that, so talking

about Alien- Well, that was the, the

and going in, you

know, that wasn’t a friendly

encounter.

[00:53:06] Mary: but I th- I would argue that the real villain in the Alien franchise is the company.

[00:53:11] nick: The corporation.

Yeah.

[00:53:12] Chris_G: Yeah.

Well, I mean- All

[00:53:13] joe: Yeah, that’s right. yeah. All

day long.

yeah. Yeah. Yes. yes.

Yeah. I’m just saying that we think of the alien in there, but they weren’t.

[00:53:20] Mary: Oh, yeah. How great is Alien Romulus? The greatest?

[00:53:23] Chris_G: greatest? So good. It’s definitely up

[00:53:24] Mary: So good? Okay. Anyway, all right, back to Al- back to ET. Okay, here we go.

[00:53:28] joe: Not my, Sorry …Harrison

[00:53:29] Chris_G: Ford was in a deleted scene- What?

[00:53:32] georgia: Oh, yeah. Is that right? yeah. No. He was a principal. He

was a principal.

That’s all I’m

[00:53:37] nick: it.

[00:53:37] Chris_G: Oh,

[00:53:38] Mary: the principal, excuse me.

[00:53:39] Chris_G: this goes to what you were saying about waist up not being seen on a character, because it was the callback to all the old animation. They got, like, one shot over his shoulder. You saw a little bit of the side of his head, and the rest of it was his knees to his feet. Yeah. They ended up taking that scene out all together.

[00:53:58] joe: said that he thought it would be distracting [00:54:00] ’cause s- Harrison Ford was coming off of, you know-

[00:54:02] Chris_G: He was hotter than anything right

[00:54:04] joe: so

it was kind of distracting from E.T.

[00:54:07] Chris_G: It kinda tore into the story

[00:54:09] joe: saved the movie I

if he was in it, so

[00:54:11] georgia: Oh, geez.

[00:54:12] nick: We always have to have

[00:54:17] Mary: have to have one contrarian in the group.

[00:54:19] georgia: vegetarian in the

[00:54:20] Chris_G: 1975.

Come on, man.

[00:54:21] joe: Yeah.

[00:54:21] georgia: Yeah.

[00:54:23] joe: was gonna,

I was gonna mention a, a Alien story which I really, I enjoyed, and it’s interesting ’cause it’s about, more, like, about alien artifacts, but it was Roadside Picnic in 1972. It was the Strugatsky brothers that wrote that novel, and it was about aliens- Going past Earth, stop like a roadside picnic, leave their debris,

and then

us humans are trying to figure out what the debris does.

And there was like this kind of device there, this kind of wish, wish machine, I guess, that it would make anything you want come true. And people would go out into the [00:55:00] field, and you would hire someone, and they’d go out and try to find new artifacts. So it was really… It was a really good book where you had alien…

They, they visited, but it wasn’t really confirmed, and they didn’t communicate with them. So you also had this story in there where kind of, you know, that was one of the things that you also

[00:55:17] nick: in

[00:55:18] joe: time, so,

[00:55:19] nick: It’s

[00:55:20] joe: happening

[00:55:21] georgia: Do you

got a- That wasn’t me.

Oh.

I was away

[00:55:21] joe: wasn’t me.

Oh.

[00:55:23] Chris_G: away from the

[00:55:24] nick: the

[00:55:24] Chris_G: why

[00:55:24] joe: like, it was like, all right. It was my turn. What’s happening

[00:55:25] nick: I don’t know why

you look at

[00:55:26] Chris_G: me.

Yeah, this won’t happen. Oh. This won’t

happen.

[00:55:30] georgia: It was

[00:55:30] Mary: like,

[00:55:30] nick: love-

[00:55:31] Chris_G: Cleared my throat there. I’m sorry.

[00:55:33] georgia: What’s happening here? You- I think of, like- Yeah … I know he’s not an alien, I mean, he’s a robot, but I- Iron Giant.

[00:55:38] joe: Yeah, you can see that.

[00:55:39] georgia: a very similar- Mm-hmm … kind of story.

[00:55:42] joe: yeah. The humanity. It’s finding your humanity and- Yeah.

[00:55:46] Chris_G: Mm-hmm, yeah.

[00:55:46] joe: Kind of- Or your- …putting

a spotlight

on that, I think- Right … To your point. , Mary, you were Area touching on this a little bit I think.

Mm-hmm. Is that how do we find, see ourselves, hold a mirror up to society- Mm-hmm … and that’s reflected via [00:56:00] these alien. ‘Cause the Iron Giant was an alien, technically, ’cause it came from somewhere else. It wasn’t Earth… Well, we assume it wasn’t a terrestrial creation and it came down, and it did that, so

[00:56:12] Mary: our attitudes towards aliens, you know, reflect how we feel about, you know, the stranger and the anxiety and the panic around that.

[00:56:20] joe: And- There’s a movie, Planet 51, right? Isn’t that, Erie 51. Erie f- Or the one, the animated one.

[00:56:25] nick: Oh, no, not the one I’m thinking

of. Oh,

[00:56:27] georgia: Tera.

There was that,

[00:56:28] joe: There was a Battle for Terra, right?

Um,

Then you had, that was, like, Avatar animated.

[00:56:32] georgia: Which one are you talking about? The- It

[00:56:34] joe: It was, like, Area for the little aliens. I think it was Planet 51

[00:56:37] nick: I was thinking of District 9, actually.

[00:56:39] joe: District 9?

[00:56:40] nick: Which- Yeah … they were just enslaved aliens. Well,

[00:56:43] joe: was

totally

[00:56:44] nick: not enslaved, but like- Like immigrant

[00:56:46] joe: Alien Nation.

Came out somewhere in the early ’80s. I wanna say ’84-ish, ’85.

[00:56:52] Mary: TV series, by the way

[00:56:53] joe: the, the movie was really good also. Yeah.

[00:56:55] Mary: Yeah,

[00:56:56] Chris_G: I get that confused with V.

[00:56:58] joe: Oh,

V. Yes, Yeah.

[00:56:59] Mary: Now [00:57:00] That’s a

that’s

[00:57:00] joe: now that was one that

left some scars,

[00:57:02] Chris_G: Oh,

yes. with

V. As long as

[00:57:04] joe: they Live, right?

‘Cause They Live, V, you had that, that you don’t know,

you know, it was

[00:57:09] Chris_G: brought us Robert Englund, too.

[00:57:11] Mary: Yeah, that’s true.

I remember him from the TV ser- or from the mini-series and the TV series. So I wasn’t really that s- I wasn’t really that scared of him

[00:57:21] Chris_G: Yeah. He was a

[00:57:22] joe: a nice-

[00:57:22] Mary: remembered him being just a cuddle bug.

[00:57:24] Chris_G: He was a sweet guy

[00:57:26] Mary: a sweet, absolute sweetheart in V

[00:57:28] Chris_G: Until he wasn’t.

[00:57:29] Mary: Yeah.

[00:57:30] joe: Yeah. Well,

[00:57:30] Mary: you know, everyone gets pushed beyond their limits Even

[00:57:33] joe: got pushed.

[00:57:34] georgia: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:57:34] Mary: So but you know what, there was another … I, and I haven’t s- well, it’s gets touched on a little bit when we talk about E.T., but Peter Pan is, has an enormous influence on this movie in my opinion

[00:57:46] georgia: on

This movie, in my opinion. Okay. How

[00:57:49] joe: how so,

please?

Well, the,

Well-

[00:57:53] Chris_G: it,

[00:57:54] Mary: it start,

especially at, when you get to the end, you realize, oh, you know, it’s E- ET is [00:58:00] asking him if he, “Will you come with me?”

And he’s like, “No I have to stay here.” You know, there’s this idea that, , there was, to fly away and just live in this perpetual fantasy world. But no, he, you know, he has responsibilities here on Earth. The flying through the sky, that kind of thing. The, the lost boys, you know, join them in the bike ride.

You know, that kind of thing. When mom is reading to Gertie,, “Clap hard if you believe in fairies.” just a little illusion there. But y- you don’t really see adults as much. You know, this is the, this is a world of children. And- Very much … but, and it’s assumed to be temporary. This is a this is just a, like a, just a moment in time.

[00:58:46] Chris_G: a

stop. Yeah,

[00:58:47] Mary: That, yeah, that we don’t, and we’re not going to revisit this again. You know, like ET leaving and going into the shape.

[00:58:53] georgia: losing innocence?

Yeah. Interesting.

[00:58:55] Mary: Yeah.

yeah, he’s like putting, yeah, this is, like, the end of one part of his [00:59:00] childhood. And ET has healed him in more than one way.

In a m-

[00:59:04] nick: killed him in more than one way.

[00:59:07] Mary: All right.

[00:59:07] joe: The healing

[00:59:08] Chris_G: me…

I’m

[00:59:09] nick: That was-

[00:59:09] joe: the healing

[00:59:10] Mary: But

[00:59:10] joe: hand-waving.

The

[00:59:12] Chris_G: the idea that he-

[00:59:12] joe: Fingerwavium. A

[00:59:16] Chris_G: A subset.

[00:59:18] georgia: Yeah,

[00:59:19] Mary: that, you, yeah, we rarely see adults. You know, adults are, , from the waist down. But the, the whole movie is like a celebration of childhood, but it’s also exploring the pain that this family is having, the the pain of these chi- these children trying to figure out why the adults in their lives are, have upended it.

[00:59:37] joe: And he-

[00:59:38] Mary: And he-

[00:59:39] georgia: that makes… Yeah. Yeah.

[00:59:40] Mary: And so it just, it’s just a, it’s a celebration of, like, just the ephemerality of this, this moment, and he’s healed at the end of

[00:59:48] georgia: I think of that like, and I’m sorry, I don’t remember his character’s name, but Peter Coyote again.

[00:59:54] Chris_G: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:55] Mary: Yeah. I don’t think Nerfada had anything. He was a scientist

[00:59:57] georgia: remember when he was talking, he goes…

And he was [01:00:00] alluding to his own childhood and

[01:00:02] Mary: Oh, when he was

[01:00:03] georgia: that. Yeah.

And I think that, yeah.

[01:00:06] Mary: Oh, that’s right. I forgot

[01:00:07] Chris_G: about

that He came to me, too. That was- also- Yeah. He came to me, too. Yeah. You know?

[01:00:10] georgia: what

[01:00:10] joe: like a callback to Close Encounters.

Little bit. Yeah. You had that. When I watched that, ’cause I watched- Yeah … we watched ET, and then I watched Close Encounters, and I thought about some of those scenes and what he was talking about. It was like, oh, he got visited. And then it was like, oh, if you watch Close Encounters, there was that, where people had these visions.

And there was a scene in that movie where it was like, there could be many people who aren’t watching TV and see the mountain, and then they’re coming to that, but they have these feelings that they’ve been visited, and they have seen something. So he could’ve been one of the younger people who’ve seen that- Mm-hmm

and couldn’t put it in context. And then

[01:00:45] Chris_G: when

[01:00:46] joe: when ET comes, he, this is what led his career, his involvement in the sciences potentially- Yeah … in looking for extraterrestrial life. And then here it is, and it’s like, you know what? And that’s the [01:01:00] only reason I think- They would’ve given him, , that clear the room, let him have…

I was m- poking fun of that, but I was thinking that he was at that point. But I think on the other hand you have this incredible specimen There was no way.

just think

[01:01:15] Chris_G: that

[01:01:16] joe: It just wouldn’t, it wouldn’t happen that way.

[01:01:18] Chris_G: The science doesn’t work for

[01:01:19] joe: right, yeah.

It would come in- That’s right … and they would …be “

like, Nope we’re shutting this all down. Little boy, oh, you wanna go along? We’re taking you for some studies also because it’s like you’ve been linked to an alien now.”

[01:01:30] Chris_G: when he dies-

[01:01:31] Mary: Yeah.

[01:01:32] joe: Yeah

spoiler,

[01:01:33] Chris_G: sorry.

[01:01:33] Mary: Yeah.

[01:01:34] Chris_G: he comes right back. He comes right back. That’s right.

[01:01:36] nick: back.

[01:01:36] joe: That’s right. And you know

[01:01:37] Chris_G: you know because the indicator

[01:01:38] joe: Why don’t,

[01:01:39] Chris_G: mean why are we doing-

of the BS- … human- … geranium

[01:01:41] joe: things on

an alien? I mean, it’s like let’s push, you know, you know, da, let’s do this. Like Georgia said, they had real doctors in there doing stuff, but it was like, it’s an alien.

What, how do we know classic sci-fi and Mars Attacks pokes holes in this, where it’s like, “You know what we know about the aliens.” you know, so Starship [01:02:00] Troopers, it’s like all of a sudden you have this whole playbook about the aliens’ biology and what they can do from a, a, you know, brief, a brief encounter.

Like, you know what, I think it’s like these are the male parts and these are the female parts and da. So-

[01:02:11] Chris_G: the aspirator

[01:02:12] joe: right yeah.

[01:02:12] Chris_G: on the nose.

We’re giving that’s right, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Do we that’s

[01:02:15] joe: where

[01:02:15] Mary: Where’s the chest? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,

[01:02:17] Chris_G: It was

[01:02:17] joe: just glowing a second ago.

mean, it’s kind of- I think and all ashen. You

know, it’s like a-

When

[01:02:23] Mary: E.T. dies I’m wondering, , like I’m looking back at it thinking, “Well, we don’t, we know so little about their biology. Maybe this is kinda like a de- defense mechanism.” Right. Maybe his species can play dead to such an extent that, you know, they, he looks dead.

[01:02:39] joe: And that’s real. That’s- you

know? They’re real, there’s real organisms

that do that, that can go into stasis. You have like the tardigrades. They can- Yeah … g- they can go down- Water bears …

[01:02:46] georgia: They were trying to be

[01:02:48] joe: You have the wood frogs that in the Arctic they can actually f- over freeze and then come, be

revived.

Right. So you have these, Playing-

You do have organisms that do, I mean, right, you

also,

playing possum. Right.

you,

[01:02:59] nick: that could [01:03:00] have also backfired real hard on them. Like-

[01:03:02] joe: I think

[01:03:02] nick: would

they could have just been like-

[01:03:04] Chris_G: Instant dissection …

[01:03:05] nick: dead. Let’s start cutting in. Let’s

figure out what’s in

[01:03:07] joe: didn’t

[01:03:07] georgia: Let’s start cutting in. Let’s do it. But Joe, remember the whole DNA thing, and then they talked about his DNA. Yeah. And then they showed the computer screen, and then they

showed

[01:03:15] Mary: he has more DNA

[01:03:17] georgia: it was like-

[01:03:17] joe: Something about- Nucleotides … something

about nu- yeah, it was

[01:03:19] Chris_G: yeah, it

[01:03:19] georgia: then they were separating,

[01:03:20] Chris_G: him. But I was like- Six nucleotides-

[01:03:22] joe: I was like

[01:03:23] Chris_G: But I was like- … instead of a mere four like us mortals here. Yeah.

[01:03:25] joe: I don’t, yes, that’s right. The

ATCG. They don’t

[01:03:27] Chris_G: name the extra

[01:03:28] georgia: And then you could see on the screen them

[01:03:30] joe: like,

[01:03:30] nick: a- So they did

get DNA samples, yes?

[01:03:33] Chris_G: Element. Like Fifth Element- They’re gonna make new ones?

[01:03:36] nick: Yeah,

[01:03:36] georgia: and, They’re gonna make new ones?

Yeah. Yeah, like- Jurassic Park … they-

[01:03:38] Chris_G: gonna have a backyard

[01:03:39] joe: full of gremlins You know?

[01:03:40] Chris_G: and ETs.

[01:03:41] nick: and ETs. Well, I was actually going if they start going the Jurassic Park route and start,

[01:03:45] georgia: know-

Oh Yeah.

[01:03:47] joe: I was thinking of Fifth Element and the Mimo groups. We got

[01:03:49] nick: got- … all this

[01:03:50] joe: They got

all these Mimo, which means nothing. It was like, “What are you talking about?” But we were talking about some movies, and I did have a few others that I thought about here.

Killer Klowns [01:04:00] from Outer Space. I’m going to the ’80s. Yay. The Hidden also

[01:04:03] Mary: I haven’t seen that one.

[01:04:04] Chris_G: I haven’t

[01:04:04] nick: I don’t know that.

[01:04:05] Chris_G: Cocoon

[01:04:05] joe: in ’85

[01:04:06] Mary: yeah.

[01:04:07] joe: Which I think, you know, we were just watching The Bourgh which I think had

some callback to that. The Wally Wolodarsky series

I loved it

[01:04:12] georgia: Flight of

[01:04:12] nick: it,

[01:04:13] joe: so you know Flight of the Navigator.

[01:04:15] nick: What?

[01:04:16] joe: What? Which was Flight of the Navigator,

oh, in ’86. It was like a boy, he was abducted, and then he comes back and then it’s a time dilation thing where he come… Yeah, so it’s a good movie. It’s solid. So, like a good E.T.-inspired kind of movie there.

[01:04:33] Mary: Mean-

[01:04:34] joe: there’s also Mac and Me, but only Nick enjoys that.

[01:04:37] Chris_G: That movie has been

[01:04:38] georgia: named

[01:04:38] nick: times

can you police that? That

[01:04:40] Chris_G: times more than it should be. Yes.

[01:04:42] joe: Did you

[01:04:43] Chris_G: hear,

[01:04:43] Mary: Do you like-

[01:04:44] joe: a

thing with no, Steven Spielberg …

[01:04:45] Mary: you like

[01:04:46] joe: ask him- Do you watch Mac and Me? No, I do not. No. Do

not

[01:04:48] Mary: I

[01:04:48] nick: Thank you for

[01:04:48] Chris_G: trying to set

him

[01:04:49] Mary: up … I was like, I do, I

[01:04:51] joe: Spielberg says,

he goes, they ask him, “Oh, do you ever consider legal action against Mac and Me?”

and He jokingly said,

“I don’t

want to get blamed for [01:05:00] making anyone watch it in order to make a

complaint.” Nope.

[01:05:02] nick: make a complaint.”

That was

[01:05:05] Chris_G: he’s not wrong.

But yeah, the

[01:05:06] joe: Coca-Cola revi- Yeah … I

mean, talk about

pi- but the Coca-Cola revived the alien. Like, it was like a

thing. So as much handwavium

as that, as E.T. but yeah, it was one of those things that was really,

[01:05:17] Mary: I tried to watch it on

[01:05:18] joe: did watch it. We, I

did watch

[01:05:20] Mary: it’s pretty unwatchable

[01:05:21] joe: yeah. With the giant- Yeah. I don’t know why we watched it. We-

[01:05:23] georgia: Oh, God, I don’t know

[01:05:25] joe: I

never saw it,

and it was that joke with, With oh the one- Paul Rudd …

Paul Rudd, that’s right, on, on a

[01:05:29] nick: Conan O’Brien

[01:05:30] joe: goes on and he shows the wheelchair scene.

[01:05:33] nick: Yeah. And I

[01:05:35] joe: I was

like, “You know, I never watched this movie. Let’s watch

Mac and Me.”

[01:05:37] nick: That’s

the

exact

reason. ‘Cause I’m- That is the only reason people see that film … so

[01:05:42] georgia: I love that M- that Mary was gonna hold her tongue- Yeah … if Joe said that

[01:05:47] joe: that

he No.

I was like, “Wait

[01:05:48] Chris_G: a s- ” I mean-

[01:05:49] joe: …E.T. is, like, barely better than Mac and I’m joking. I am joking

about that.

[01:05:52] Mary: to f-

[01:05:53] joe: actually, I actually- Chris is gonna choke me to death. choke me

[01:05:55] nick: to death.

[01:05:55] Mary: to dabble in it? Well, ’cause you kept mentioning it, and I thought, “Well, maybe this is a movie you like b-

[01:05:59] joe: a rise [01:06:00] out it.

[01:06:00] georgia: Maybe he r- Have a ride about it …maybe he really

[01:06:01] joe: rise.

[01:06:01] Chris_G: I’m an easy target.

[01:06:02] nick: I’m fine.

[01:06:03] Mary: Okay. But Chris, you were looking at your phone. What was, you

had

[01:06:06] Chris_G: some other

[01:06:06] joe: were you actually

[01:06:07] Mary: No,

[01:06:07] nick: No, but you

[01:06:08] Mary: No, but you had

[01:06:09] joe: No, but- He’s going to the Mac and Me. convention

[01:06:10] Chris_G: No, not in a bad way No, no, no, no, no, no … like you might be.

[01:06:11] georgia: No.

[01:06:12] joe: Mac and Me. Exactly. The Mac and Me podcast.

[01:06:13] Chris_G: Me podcast. No, we were ta-

[01:06:13] joe: get there? It’s gonna

[01:06:14] Chris_G: How in the world did we get there?

[01:06:17] Mary: Yeah.

[01:06:17] nick: That’s gonna be our next episode with you,

[01:06:18] georgia: right Chris? At o-

[01:06:19] Chris_G: you, right, Joe?

[01:06:19] Mary: Chris?

I’ll be calling in dead. Okay? All right.

[01:06:22] Chris_G: I’m gonna phone that one in. Yeah,

[01:06:24] joe: Are you gonna

phone

[01:06:25] Chris_G: be me in person.

[01:06:26] joe: he actually

says home phone first, right? Almost in a Yoda kinda like. He says home phone, and they correct it to phone home. Yeah. And most people think just phone home, but he actually said home phone. So

[01:06:36] Chris_G: He says both. He

[01:06:37] joe: both … he does say both.

That’s right, yep.

[01:06:38] Chris_G: We were talking a second about when E.T. died, and Nick alluded to the fact that could’ve gone dark real bad. They could’ve started the autopsy right then- Right … in front of

[01:06:47] nick: the-

I would’ve

[01:06:48] Chris_G: I would’ve. We know you would’ve, Nick.

You might not have

waited.

[01:06:52] joe: no. we- He would,

[01:06:53] nick: You know we got one, let’s just… It had become an alien. There you go.

[01:06:55] joe: into Elliott too. Like, “You

know what? Let’s,

[01:06:57] Mary: We’re so We’re sorry, Simon. What an odd parallel though, [01:07:00] because a bit before that, in the classroom scene with all the

Oh,

[01:07:06] joe: that’s right.

[01:07:06] Chris_G: man Yeah … they just put a cotton ball of chloroform in there, and he’s gonna go to sleep.

The p- the- Yep … teacher’s explaining.

[01:07:15] joe: feel no pain, yeah

[01:07:16] Chris_G: And they’re gonna cut these frogs open, and he says, “One of the things you’re gonna notice, that heart will still be beating.” Would that go down in 2026, where you’re cutting open live

[01:07:27] joe: I will see, I will say

[01:07:29] Chris_G: No, it would not.

[01:07:30] joe: I will say when I was in college, in Bio 102, I think it was the practicum You would go station to station and you had to answer questions. There was a question, like, how many chambers does a frog heart have? And you looked into the open chest of the frog, and the heart was still beating

[01:07:49] Mary: Mm-hmm.

[01:07:51] joe: then I was like, “Oh, that’s one, two, three.” So that was,

was very

helpful that, ’cause you get, you can watch the

beating.

Yeah. But yeah,

[01:07:58] georgia: two, three … I actually [01:08:00] love that scene- sorry … where he lets all the frogs out.

[01:08:02] joe: little dark.

[01:08:03] georgia: And then they kiss, and it was

just like,

[01:08:05] Chris_G: all the frogs go. Yeah. Yeah. And then they kiss, and it was just like, It turns out Spielberg actually

did that

when he was in school. He secretly let all the

frogs

[01:08:11] georgia: love that. So 30,

[01:08:12] Chris_G: 30,

40 years later, he went ahead and did that.

And by the way, little bit of trivia,

[01:08:17] joe: Nick,

[01:08:18] Chris_G: The little blonde girl that he kisses

[01:08:20] joe: That’s right

[01:08:20] Chris_G: that’s Erika Eleniak. 30 years later, she would jump out of a cake in Under Siege. I

[01:08:28] joe: gonna say, now, is that in Under Siege? Yeah, wow. Yeah, that’s a… She was the Playmate of the Year in that movie,

[01:08:34] georgia: Not in ET. No, in, in Under Siege. I

[01:08:35] joe: No, in, in Under

[01:08:37] Chris_G: Siege.

[01:08:37] joe: I-

[01:08:37] nick: would hope not, Georgia.

[01:08:39] Chris_G: the no, they had the- We’re gonna make a real distinction

[01:08:42] joe: No. Why are you gonna share people that- No. What, was she purring next to you or… Yeah. That’s a

pre-episode callback, but

yeah, no.

[01:08:51] Chris_G: yeah,

[01:08:52] joe: Wow, that’s

a…

Thank

[01:08:53] nick: something up on your phone there? I

[01:08:54] joe: if

[01:08:54] Chris_G: sense to anyone listening.

[01:08:57] nick: you got going on?

[01:08:58] georgia: No, I don’t know, like, if [01:09:00] Joe remembers, I did the monologue about Tamara, you know.

[01:09:04] joe: Yeah. Oh, you can- let people know.

[01:09:06] georgia: yeah, do you remember that?

[01:09:08] joe: I don’t know. So I

[01:09:10] nick: Man, that sounded right. I

[01:09:14] joe: know. Let me, add this in. Yes, I know exactly.

[01:09:18] georgia: but- Man, that sounded great … all right. I know. Let me- … let me listen. Okay. Yeah, I know exactly. The power of editing. No, I’m kidding.

[01:09:21] nick: So I did a

[01:09:23] georgia: a monologue about this woman who played E.T.

She was she was…

[01:09:30] Mary: was…

[01:09:30] georgia: had

dwarfism.

Right. And she was only

[01:09:32] joe: 31

[01:09:33] georgia: 31

inches tall, and she actually played in the ET suit.

But then they weren’t even gonna give… And it was her and this other, this boy

[01:09:42] Chris_G: a few people …

[01:09:43] joe: was three. yeah,

I think three people.

[01:09:45] georgia: And the boy had no legs. Yeah. That was- Yeah … and they weren’t even, wasn’t even gonna give them credit on the… And I think some, something happened. I did notice that they, that her name was in the credits.

Mm-hmm. But Armistead Maupin [01:10:00] was her good friend. Oh,

[01:10:01] Mary: Oh, really?

[01:10:02] georgia: he wrote the book Maybe the Moon, and it’s based on her and about, about her.

[01:10:07] Mary: Oh, I didn’t know that. Oh,

[01:10:09] joe: So I had, um… It

was,

[01:10:10] Mary: of the City is just, yeah, it’s a

[01:10:12] georgia: fantastic. I love him so much.

[01:10:14] Mary: series is great. Anyway,

[01:10:15] joe: in my notes I had Matthew, the, Merritt was the born without legs and walked on his hands for the stumbling scenes.

Mm-hmm. And then Pat Billon was the other one, along with Tamara De Threa, Treau,

what’s, You know what? The French name, like-

[01:10:29] georgia: and it’s a French name that I-

[01:10:30] joe: T-R-E-A-U-X. Yeah. Someone who

speaks French can…

I was gonna say- I don’t know what’s going on over there. Something’s

happening You know exactly what’s going

what. I know something’s happening.

but I…

Mary had brought up War- War of the Worlds, and then we were talking about E.T. being on Earth.

[01:10:54] georgia: I don’t, no,

[01:10:54] Mary: I don’t…

[01:10:55] joe: I don’t… I’m

not looking over there.

[01:10:56] nick: I’ve

already sent it to you, don’t worry … it was,

[01:10:57] joe: is

that the… Okay.

[01:10:58] Chris_G: It’ll

[01:10:59] nick: in the show

[01:10:59] joe: notes.

but that

[01:11:00] was the idea

that, though, interacting with our, you know, some of the handwavium there is that you had E.T.

came, and he could breathe our air almost like he was, naturally fit in, eat our food, metabo- I mean, maybe that’s why he got sick. I don’t know. He was eating a

lot of junk.

But you, you had- Of course …but

in War of the Worlds, you had the alien invasion was stopped because of Earth’s microbes that affected them, right?

So that probably , could that be one of the things that caused him to be sick- Mm-hmm … was that. But then he healed. I mean, that’s, see, this is where you get into the, the plot holes, and he was sick, he’s dying, and then all of a sudden, he’s, , revived.

[01:11:36] georgia: wasn’t the whole point was when he separated from Elliot that he was-

[01:11:40] joe: I think the whole point was that, I got to this earlier, was that he was really a scout, and it wasn’t phone home and all that. They were coming back anyway.

[01:11:50] Chris_G: were all connected.

[01:11:51] joe: yeah. And I think

they- were

[01:11:52] Chris_G: they heard a noise, all their hearts were in sync.

Once he got left,

[01:11:57] joe: Interesting

[01:11:58] Chris_G: point, hot take perhaps, [01:12:00] he linked with the first life form that he came around- He did link with a deer … and it was Elliott that

[01:12:06] joe: it was deer. He, deer, there was all sorts of woodland animals that he came in contact with. Why wouldn’t he link with one of those?

[01:12:13] nick: ‘Cause they’re not at our l-

[01:12:15] Mary: I don’t know

[01:12:15] Chris_G: links with a deer-

[01:12:16] joe: I I’m

[01:12:17] Chris_G: is a four-minute movie.

[01:12:18] joe: Well, I mean,

[01:12:19] Chris_G: That’s- I haven’t even started my popcorn yet, Joe.

[01:12:23] joe: I’m just saying, though. I mean,

that’s, why

[01:12:25] Chris_G: not?

[01:12:26] joe: why

wouldn’t he link with one of those, right?

[01:12:29] nick: That was great. Can E.T. turn invisible?

[01:12:30] Chris_G: Why

[01:12:31] joe: Why

not the plants? That’s-

[01:12:32] Mary: sounds like a riveting

[01:12:33] joe: and the

[01:12:34] Mary: movie. Okay.

[01:12:35] joe: collecting them like they, they love them,

[01:12:37] Chris_G: right? Because Henry Thomas was already signed on. I mean, what do you want me to say? Groot.

[01:12:42] joe: They got Groot there.

[01:12:43] nick: Can he turn

[01:12:44] joe: am

[01:12:44] Chris_G: I agree. Can he what?

[01:12:46] nick: Can E.T. turn invisible?

[01:12:47] joe: Invisible.

[01:12:49] nick: Yes, ’cause in the shack

[01:12:51] georgia: then he would’ve needed the sheet.

What

[01:12:53] joe: he

[01:12:53] nick: he would’ve needed the sheet. What the- Where- No. No, because when he was

in the shack,

he was there

still.

So- But they, all those guys-

[01:12:59] Chris_G: love that [01:13:00] your big answer is, “Then he would not have needed the sheet. Next.

[01:13:04] nick: Back to you.

[01:13:05] Chris_G: What?

[01:13:06] joe: those

[01:13:07] nick: What?

‘Cause what? All those boys went in the shed with the knives, and they didn’t see him?

[01:13:12] Chris_G: was

[01:13:12] joe: The

footprints led out, though. I think E.T. had

[01:13:14] nick: No, his, after they walked away, his hand clings to the corner

[01:13:19] joe: the corner

[01:13:20] Chris_G: He’s really good at hide and

[01:13:22] nick: He must be able to turn invisible. Have

[01:13:23] Chris_G: he’s a champion

[01:13:25] joe: you ever send a kid for something and

they like, “I don’t see it.”

It’s

like-

“It’s right there.

[01:13:29] georgia: being in the closet? He would’ve pretended

to be a doll if he could just make himself

[01:13:34] joe: Yeah. He’s not

The Predator yet.

[01:13:35] georgia: Come on, Nick.

[01:13:36] Chris_G: That got such a

[01:13:37] Mary: such a huge reaction when we… I still remember, like, people’s reactions in the theater.

[01:13:42] Chris_G: When they’re

[01:13:42] joe: across

[01:13:42] nick: the

[01:13:43] Chris_G: the

[01:13:43] Mary: went to the toys

huge pop. You

[01:13:44] joe: pop. You guys

are spoiling it for people. Or-

[01:13:47] Chris_G: the other one

[01:13:48] joe: the other one “

[01:13:48] Mary: I don’t like his feet.”

[01:13:50] joe: his feet.”

That

[01:13:51] Mary: That got a hu-

[01:13:51] georgia: was

[01:13:52] Chris_G: out that

[01:13:52] joe: was

[01:13:53] Chris_G: Barrymore’s

actual

response. Really? That was not written.

[01:13:56] Mary: re- Oh,

no way.

[01:13:57] georgia: I

love- “I didn’t like the feet.” I love that.

[01:13:59] Mary: Oh, that’s so[01:14:00]

[01:14:00] Chris_G: when

E.T. Is hiding in the toys.

And the mom pans across, Mm-hmm and he knows to j- I forgot this is a video. He

[01:14:09] nick: knows

[01:14:10] Chris_G: just look forward. Yeah. Like this and

[01:14:12] Mary: Not to move. Yeah … so

[01:14:13] Chris_G: That moves, yeah. So he looks like a toy. Little callback in Gremlins, by the way.

[01:14:17] nick: In

[01:14:17] Chris_G: the department store.

[01:14:20] nick: Yeah … where

[01:14:20] Chris_G: is s- where is Stripe hiding? Right behind an E.T. doll.

[01:14:24] joe: right. Oh,

Interesting. Yeah. okay.

Yep.

[01:14:27] Chris_G: He’s gotta jump back out, and it’s an E.T. doll that falls out of the way,

[01:14:31] georgia: out of the way, so. Oh, fun.

[01:14:31] joe: Fun. Interesting. There

was

[01:14:32] Chris_G: a young actor, actually, that was going to be cast as Elliott’s best friend, and he was a quirky young kid, and they thought it, it ended up being better that he didn’t have a good friend.

That he was more of a loner, and that actor, they ended up, they Spielberg said I’m gonna cut you from this. We cast you, but we’re gonna cut you. I’m gonna put you in my next movie.” And he put him in Gremlins, because it was Corey Feldman.

[01:14:57] georgia: Oh, my gosh. Oh, wow.

[01:14:59] Chris_G: And I [01:15:00] did that for Georgia.

[01:15:01] georgia: Aw.

[01:15:02] joe: it is.

Wow.

[01:15:04] Mary: is. Yeah.

[01:15:05] Chris_G: ‘Cause we spent 20 minutes on Corey Feldman the last time I was down here.

[01:15:09] Mary: time I was down here. Oh, my. So what is the most fannish Chris, what is the most fannish thing you’ve done? , well, you, besides m- making the, oh, it’s an E.T., you know, in, in, in front of a, yeah, Reese’s box. Those, we’re looking at an illustration that Chris ha- has made.

But what are what other fannish things have you, you’ve done in the name of E.T.?

[01:15:30] Chris_G: A lot of artwork. Three or four different Reese’s Pieces boxes. Mm-hmm. But the, I think as far as fanish stuff, Mary, I think I peaked in, I think I peaked in ’82. Mm-hmm. When, now I’m gonna,

[01:15:45] nick: I’m

[01:15:45] joe: gonna

educate

the,

[01:15:46] Mary: When the movie

[01:15:46] Chris_G: I was- Like

I could not go above what I did in ’82, is what I’m trying to

get at. Okay. All right.

I’m gonna educate some of the younger folks in the room

[01:15:54] joe: very that You singled out.

[01:15:56] Chris_G: This is a service that we provide. A service we provide. [01:16:00] If you did not have $1,000 to buy, and that’s relative, but if you didn’t have the means to go and buy a mask and the whole outfit, you could go to a place called JO-ANN Fabrics and they would sell patterns.

[01:16:14] joe: They

[01:16:15] Chris_G: sell an, a, a literal paper packet of patterns. You take it home, and maybe Mom is good with a sewing machine. What they had was a mannequin with a head-to-toe E.T. outfit with a little pen light in the finger.

[01:16:29] Mary: wow.

[01:16:30] Chris_G: Ooh. And

this glowy thing inside here that was a battery pack, and I saw that and I said, “Hot diggity, I am gonna be E.T.

for Halloween.” And they knew what they were doing. They saw me from a mile away. ‘Cause I mean, we had just seen it that summer, so now to put that out in August for October, hook, line, and sinker

Yeah.

[01:16:51] nick: Yeah.

[01:16:52] Chris_G: And I looked at the little packet, and the packet was selling for $1.99. My chimpanzee brain of age [01:17:00] seven equated that the costume cost $1.99.

That’s just the pattern. Oh. You then have to b- Yeah

And

I wasn’t sophisticated enough to put that all together. I’m like, “It’s $1.99.”

[01:17:12] Mary: you’re seven. It’s, you’re- Yeah, I know … You’re forgiven.

[01:17:14] Chris_G: The I w- I am not forgiven, however, Mary. For what I did.

When I was told, “No, that’s not happening,” I laid down- in Jo-Ann Fabrics and had a real tantrum.

[01:17:27] Mary: Yes.

[01:17:28] Chris_G: And Pat Guzman, my mom, did what needed to be done.

[01:17:31] joe: Yep.

[01:17:31] georgia: She made it.

[01:17:32] Chris_G: She d- no.

[01:17:34] nick: not where the story goes. She took care of this five-pound, two- Right … she took care of E.T., too. Yeah. She squashed the tantrum.

Mm-hmm. She did.

Yeah. Oh,

[01:17:37] Mary: She took care of my public display. This is ’82. You’re right.

[01:17:38] Chris_G: the, she took care of my public

[01:17:40] georgia: care of my public

display. This

[01:17:41] Chris_G: She took care of

[01:17:42] joe: doesn’t sound like where

This story was going. She took care of it by- This is ’82. Yeah, right … she took care of it. yeah. This is ’82.

[01:17:43] Chris_G: She squashed

the tantrum. She did n- oh, no.

No.

[01:17:48] georgia: Oh, I really like imagining you in that costume.

[01:17:52] Chris_G: did

in that costume. Yeah. Well, the, I don’t wanna mess with your imagination.

[01:17:54] nick: She just wedgied him out of there. Yeah.

[01:17:56] joe: right.

Yeah. Yeah, she gently lifted them out- It did not- … and then made it

[01:17:59] Chris_G: [01:18:00] what happened later did not feel- … like a like a costume was being made for me.

[01:18:04] Mary: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[01:18:05] Chris_G: like a boy was being disciplined. Yeah. That he deserved.

[01:18:09] joe: I went, ’82, I went as The Thing for

Halloween.

[01:18:12] georgia: No,

you didn’t.

[01:18:13] Chris_G: you didn’t. No

[01:18:14] georgia: you didn’t. You’re

[01:18:15] Chris_G: you didn’t. He is so full. But

[01:18:18] nick: cool. But

[01:18:19] joe: No, you didn’t. No, you, didn’t. So good. But, and you

raise a good point though, Chris, about merchandising.

Mm-hmm. And I wanna say that was all the, the callback was probably Star Wars ’cause that started

the merchandising for

kids. And

[01:18:31] nick: That’s what

I was gonna ask next

[01:18:33] joe: story was that Star Wars, they went around asking, like, the big toy makers at the time, and they all said no.

Like, “We don’t we don’t think so.” And Kenner took a risk. A Midwest company kind of took the, for Easy-Bake ovens and Spirograph, that’s what they were

known for,

and they said, “Sure, we’ll do it.” And they made the three and a, 3.75-inch figure that people… I mean, I had a bunch. I know Chris had a bunch and maybe

Georgia and

[01:18:59] Mary: yeah, I had [01:19:00] some.

[01:19:00] joe: Yeah. With the Darth Vader case, if you remember that

[01:19:03] Chris_G: Come on, now.

[01:19:04] nick: So did E.T. have

[01:19:05] joe: you have that.

[01:19:06] georgia: I didn’t

have any. I did

have

[01:19:07] joe: was there.

[01:19:08] Chris_G: I had the case, but I’ve got them in the

[01:19:09] georgia: didn’t have any

[01:19:10] Chris_G: I’ve got E.T. figures in the car. Yeah. I only had so many hands.

That

[01:19:13] joe: made I mean, that made Kenner where they’re at. I mean, and so they sold, like, 40 million units in 1978 alone.

Made 100 million in revenue. The prototype of Boba Fett sold at auction for 1.342 million. The most expensive toy ever sold. With the firing missile. So

that was… Yeah, so that was

[01:19:31] nick: So yeah,

[01:19:31] joe: And

so you have, and then at the same time, then you had Alien. And Alien came out, and they had toys. I actually had a Alien doll.

Um, But- it, they got sued.

The xenomorph. Yeah, xenomorph.

They, and, but they got sued because they, and parents they had to pull it off the shelves because they said it was too scary. They had facehuggers,

they had the

[01:19:51] nick: is, that’s in-

[01:19:51] joe: figure. That’s

[01:19:52] Chris_G: They had

point

[01:19:53] joe: yeah. That’s

[01:19:54] Mary: pretty

[01:19:54] joe: they said that they couldn’t- yeah.

that they wouldn’t do it. So when you loop all the way around,

and you

[01:19:59] nick: what was [01:20:00] their

s- lawsuit about?

[01:20:01] joe: Like- It was just kind of pull, they wanted it off the, those shelves. So they said it was just too scary, like, you know, just too hor- horrific-

[01:20:09] nick: Man, what is wrong with those people?

[01:20:11] Chris_G: people? … For our kids. See, there were Gremlin toys- Yeah … ’cause I bought them.

[01:20:13] nick: But-

And then w-

[01:20:15] joe: w- the, E.T. came out, that was the, there was a big nod to marketing, and I think that was somewhat in Spielberg’s head about this is where the money’s at, and how do I do it? So I think these, the, wimpy E.T., you know, wimpy Disney scary M&M’s, I think there was some marketing there.

And

it was

[01:20:35] Chris_G: show you how wimpy I can

[01:20:37] joe: That’s right, let’s make this cute, , very relatable big head, big eyes. Mm-hmm. People don’t, I mean, mammals, that’s what happens. That’s why little kittens are cute, because they have a, their heads are really big, and their eye- , they got the, the big eyes, the big head.

And they look very helpless, like they could barely hold

[01:20:53] nick: that

supposed to be cute.

[01:20:54] Chris_G: supposed to be cute? It is cute. You know

[01:20:56] joe: You know what? I think that

[01:20:56] Chris_G: eyes. that-

[01:20:57] georgia: about?

[01:20:58] Chris_G: I can’t stands no more.[01:21:00]

[01:21:01] nick: But that

was-

I’m not gonna say what I think

it looks like, but,

[01:21:03] Chris_G: well,

[01:21:03] joe: But

that was it. You did have

this very, both

Mary, Georgia, Chris, you guys all

mentioned that.

How emotional you

were at the- Yeah …

[01:21:13] Mary: Yeah, very much so … just

[01:21:14] joe: humanity of it all was emotionally tethering, and you guys got pulled right into that. I mean, I think that’s, and

[01:21:20] georgia: And I’m proud of it.

[01:21:22] joe: No,

you guys should all of that. No, that’s

I did, yeah. Yeah, no, that’s,

[01:21:25] nick: just rejected the love.

It’s

[01:21:27] joe: it.

That’s it. I mean, I didn’t

trust any of y’all. You guys all could be

The Thing at that

[01:21:31] Mary: thing.

[01:21:31] georgia: be a thing. I thought- Now

let’s look

at, like, some of the things that have been influenced by E.T.

The things? I was gonna say Stranger Things. You know that

had a big, huge- But, but- huge-

The, The

Stranger Things was

[01:21:44] joe: have been influenced by E.T.

The things? I was gonna say future things. Oh, okay. You know that- The Demogorgon. Well, the, no. The, the Demogorgon was influenced by

[01:21:45] georgia: Oh, geez

[01:21:47] joe: Rob Bottin and, and,

Hey,

[01:21:48] georgia: you know what, Joe? … practical effects

[01:21:49] joe: in The

Thing

and the dog scene with it splitting open the

…flesh flower.

You can’t- Um,

that’s what, they

[01:21:55] georgia: just have a little E.T.

love. You gotta

throw

[01:21:58] joe: I’m telling you The truth. I’m, I’m just saying

you go [01:22:00] back to the practical effects-

[01:22:02] georgia: in those movies. But you, but

the feeling of Stranger

Things, where

[01:22:05] Chris_G: right to the nastiest

[01:22:06] nick: creature

They all hopped on their bikes- The

[01:22:06] georgia: in that movie. And when they all hopped on their

bikes-

[01:22:09] Chris_G: hopped on their bikes- The bike

[01:22:09] joe: ride

[01:22:10] georgia: they’re riding, it’s E.T.

I mean- I think it was,

[01:22:13] joe: well,

yes.

[01:22:13] Chris_G: There’s

a little Goonies there too.

There’s a little

bit of

[01:22:16] joe: you had that.

Yeah. No, okay.

[01:22:18] Mary: Maybe that’s why I never got into Stranger Things, because I’d already seen The Goonies and I was… I felt satisfied and complete.

I didn’t need it.

[01:22:26] joe: All right. What do

we got? Okay.

Let’s say alien, let’s say alien Xenomorph versus E.T. What we got? What we putting our money on? Cage match. E.T. visits a planet. They’re going, collecting their little botanical samples,

bringing plants back to life, and there’s a

[01:22:40] Chris_G: a

[01:22:41] joe: egg face hugger, E.T.’s. What are they

doing?

[01:22:44] nick: got ETs.

[01:22:45] joe: You got E.T.’s?

[01:22:46] Chris_G: Yep. ETs can lift things from across the room. Yeah.

[01:22:49] joe: But the,

[01:22:49] Mary: know-

He has telekinesis.

[01:22:51] georgia: the

[01:22:51] joe: Alien,

you think they don’t,

[01:22:52] Mary: has healing

[01:22:53] joe: do the… Well, do they have a emotional psychic link to the al- I mean, right? The aliens don’t seem to have that.

The [01:23:00] clamp-

So are they,

[01:23:00] Chris_G: ET was lifting and spinning around in the bedroom. Once

[01:23:03] joe: get,

once you got the parasite in your gut, I mean, they lifting that out, the acid blood. I mean, you guys are going, so you guys are going E.T.’s. Yeah.

[01:23:10] Chris_G: I think ET can handle it.

[01:23:12] joe: What about- Yeah … you got E.T.? What do you got? You got your money on alien or E.T.?

[01:23:17] nick: Jeremy-

[01:23:18] Chris_G: on-

[01:23:18] joe: Georgia’s like, “I don’t wanna do this.”

[01:23:19] georgia: about just the species alien- Yeah … like just one random alien- For me … and one random ET? ‘Cause if it was ET, I

[01:23:26] Chris_G: ET,

[01:23:27] georgia: don’t know. I mean- I think, I think-

[01:23:31] Chris_G: I’m not

sure what I’m looking at over here What

[01:23:33] joe: I don’t know what’s going on.

[01:23:34] nick: that’s incredible.

[01:23:34] Chris_G: in the world?

Micah’s

[01:23:36] Mary: Nick is doing

[01:23:37] nick: Listen, I dropped my putty. Just

[01:23:40] joe: just like the-

[01:23:41] georgia: I think,

[01:23:42] joe: They just show up at

[01:23:43] Chris_G: the

[01:23:43] Mary: the idea-

[01:23:43] joe: They’re there … well,

[01:23:44] Mary: think the idea is like if you have something that is cute and cuddly, that-

[01:23:49] georgia: It won’t-

[01:23:50] Mary: of us just shrivel from that, I guess. I, like the idea

[01:23:54] joe: face hugger

doesn’t care how cute you are.

[01:23:56] Mary: you are

[01:23:56] nick: I mean, but look at

the eyes on

[01:23:58] joe: i-

but

[01:23:59] Mary: [01:24:00] It’s tough.

[01:24:00] nick: it’s a predator.

[01:24:01] joe: Yeah. I, I don’t know. So What… So- all right. All

right.

So How

[01:24:05] Chris_G: gonna- That

goes against everything Joe

just went

[01:24:08] joe: Joe

[01:24:09] nick: I was gonna go with Predator.

It’s

Predator

[01:24:11] joe: just witnessed.

I was gonna go with Predator. It’s Predator versus… So Predators go, they’re hunting. They… trophy hunters. Yeah. They go. Would they actually engage the ETs?

[01:24:18] Chris_G: No.

[01:24:19] joe: Because the code, right? And or would

they see the ETs …as a threat? No.

[01:24:22] Chris_G: They would be

[01:24:22] nick: I think they

[01:24:23] georgia: go fight the blank,

[01:24:24] joe: the telekinesis, that they go, “You know what?

Maybe ET’s got a, a rage in him.” And

so they

go, I mean, we don’t know

what’s happening on their

[01:24:32] nick: you don’t know

[01:24:33] Chris_G: a rageful ET.

I mean,

[01:24:34] joe: If you go, and if you know, we look at there’s humans that go out that explore, scientists. They you view an alien and you go, “Man, these humans are super friendly, super nice.

They’re

[01:24:46] nick: Look at that geek. “Studying.”

[01:24:48] joe: But

there are humans who, you know, they are, you know, the military industrial complex. So, are ETs, all the ETs like that? So would the Predators find sport in [01:25:00] ETs who are using their abilities,

fully tuned

[01:25:04] nick: they’re- For, ET’s a person- … ET Seth, Sith Lord? Seth Lord.

[01:25:09] joe: What,

[01:25:10] Chris_G: Sith lord.

[01:25:11] joe: y- yes.

[01:25:12] nick: So what,

[01:25:13] joe: So

let’s say the

[01:25:14] Mary: are so, some of us are so broken that we just can’t watch a heartwarming movie without going, “And then they died, and then they blew up, and then

[01:25:23] joe: they Predators versus-

[01:25:25] Mary: and,

[01:25:25] joe: murdered.” …

ET, right?

[01:25:26] nick: I’m like- Anyway. You know

there was violence in the movie, right?

Like you, True …you- watched this too. …

[01:25:30] georgia: too.

[01:25:31] joe: But I, let’s-

Or were they

not, or

were they, would they actually-

[01:25:34] Mary: If I

[01:25:34] joe: go invisible like

[01:25:35] Chris_G: I am clutching my popcorn bucket so hard right now, Mary.

[01:25:39] Mary: Yeah, I know.

[01:25:40] Chris_G: Well-

Just look at yourself I’m like, “Dad.”

[01:25:42] joe: you’re staying with ET, right? You’re-

[01:25:43] nick: Well,

[01:25:44] Mary: the id- okay, let’s talk about how, well, if we’re gonna talk about Predator, let’s talk about how great Prey is. Okay, that is

[01:25:50] Chris_G: Oh,

[01:25:51] joe: would that- Yeah, that was good. that-

[01:25:52] Mary: that movie- Why are

[01:25:53] nick: are

we jumping

[01:25:54] georgia: really good.

But then that could be, oh- It’s

[01:25:55] Mary: we’re

[01:25:55] nick: great

[01:25:56] Mary: gonna talk about Predator, we’re just

[01:25:58] georgia: We’ve already gone down that [01:26:00] hole “

[01:26:00] Mary: After you watch The Thing, go and put

[01:26:02] joe: they were there, They were there.

[01:26:03] Mary: They were there. Prey

[01:26:03] joe: hunting bears- Bear. They were hunting. Yeah.

So I, I, that, that almost goes to the point that maybe they would still hunt ETs, because they are a challenge. The psychic link, like, if you can…

If you’re a predator and you can withstand the psychic

[01:26:18] Mary: I think the predators would laugh their ass off if you showed up with an ET.

They would be like, “What the fuck, man?”

[01:26:23] joe: be like, “The fuck? Am I just- I, I don’t know.

[01:26:24] Chris_G: I think it

would be,

I think

[01:26:26] joe: it’d be a harder kill than

you’re giving them credit for.

[01:26:28] nick: I 100% agree

with that.

[01:26:30] Chris_G: that- I, I think that-

[01:26:30] joe: ETs would be a

tough takedown.

[01:26:32] nick: don’t

[01:26:32] georgia: the pred- I don’t

know. You’re talking about how soft-

[01:26:34] nick: not

[01:26:35] Chris_G: sure the Predators would engage. You’re talking about

[01:26:37] georgia: You’re talking about how soft and Disney-like ET is, and now all of a sudden you have him winning

[01:26:42] joe: think I said they were soft and Disney-like.

[01:26:44] georgia: Disney-like.

Yes, you did. I said, you know- You said it was, like, nothing special.

[01:26:47] Mary: the CEO of Columbia You said it was like nothing special. That’s true.

[01:26:48] georgia: You said it was

nothing special- I-

[01:26:49] joe: special

is different.

[01:26:51] nick: You said it

was

nothing special. Well, nothing special is definitely- It was like- Yeah you’re crossing streams here.

[01:26:52] joe: you are…

you’re… You

gotta

re-listen to the

[01:26:55] Chris_G: episode.

[01:26:56] Mary: there’s something so magical, too, about just the experience [01:27:00] of watching ET, or especially when I was a kid and watching it in the theater.

It’s just, it was just… It really was. It was, you know, it, not a lot of plot.

[01:27:10] joe: It was-

it was… No,

[01:27:11] Mary: wa-

No,

[01:27:12] georgia: it w- No.

[01:27:14] nick: you

[01:27:14] Chris_G: Well, you

know, what?

[01:27:15] georgia: there are

[01:27:15] Mary: are other movies, like Once Upon a Time in Hollywood doesn’t have a lot of plot, and it’s a fantastic movie. Some movies are not plot heavy, and

[01:27:23] Chris_G: to be and they’re

still good. It’s- Clerks? Clerks. Sure. Of

[01:27:28] Mary: Clerks. Sure, of course.

[01:27:30] nick: I mean, there’s no real plot

there, and it’s a fantastic-

[01:27:33] Chris_G: But- It’s crazy It was a feeling

with like-

[01:27:34] georgia: I- See, I, it- It was a feeling.

[01:27:34] Mary: you

get

[01:27:35] georgia: a, like, yeah … it

[01:27:36] Mary: up in the magic of it. You know? Like

[01:27:38] Chris_G: I agree with you.

[01:27:39] Mary: Oh, it’s just, it… There’s something’s just so special about this family. You start with this family in chaos, and… No, I’m just like-

[01:27:48] nick: also

[01:27:48] Chris_G: It’s just you and

[01:27:49] Mary: Yeah, it’s just… Yeah, that’s right.

[01:27:51] Chris_G: right. I don’t know what’s

[01:27:52] joe: right. That’s it. There’s purring- What? … purring on. my

[01:27:53] Chris_G: but I also think…

[01:27:55] Mary: I

don’t know. I th- I just think that you’re just broken people

[01:27:58] joe: I’m not broken at all. I’m [01:28:00] a realist.

[01:28:00] Mary: Right

[01:28:01] joe: So I’m just I, I’m a, the

[01:28:02] Chris_G: in a- and and

[01:28:03] Mary: i- if there’s like, if you have like a tender feeling, it must immediately be squashed and

[01:28:08] Chris_G: have- Yeah.

[01:28:08] joe: What do you have then

in this whole scenario? The ET… I mean, they’re traveling around the galaxy, and they’re gonna

[01:28:14] Mary: and they’re gonna encounter- Mm-hmm …

[01:28:14] joe: Other species. So what happens when they encounter The Thing?

[01:28:18] Mary: happens when they encounter the Thing? Yeah,

[01:28:19] joe: well,

Are they done? Were they-

[01:28:21] Chris_G: do I know that E.T. isn’t The

[01:28:23] nick: that

thing?

[01:28:23] Mary: right. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:28:24] joe: E.T., now he’s infected all of us. He

got Blair there. We

[01:28:27] Chris_G: get a sequel, E.T. is a sequel. Is the sequel. There

[01:28:30] georgia: Larry, I

[01:28:31] Chris_G: think that’s-

It was their

[01:28:31] joe: It was their

[01:28:32] georgia: where we should end this.

[01:28:33] Chris_G: and

[01:28:33] Mary: where we should end this.

[01:28:34] joe: It was their

ship

that crash landed, and they, you know, that’s what they harvested, so.

[01:28:39] georgia: Mic drop. Well, let’s just, that’s it.

[01:28:41] joe: Yeah. All right.

[01:28:43] Mary: right. Yeah.

[01:28:43] joe: You guys are done. Did we get

anywhere on that?

[01:28:45] Mary: no. Not really.

[01:28:46] Chris_G: Wow.

[01:28:48] Mary: No the, so what do you have any other thoughts on ET that we haven’t talked about yet, Chris?

[01:28:51] Chris_G: It’s a feel-good movie.

It was one of the first summer blockbusters that I ever experienced.

[01:28:58] joe: true.

[01:28:59] Chris_G: I mean, Star [01:29:00] Wars really is what started that in ’77, but I was two. yeah.

[01:29:05] joe: yeah.

[01:29:06] Chris_G: I, I had a, a much I, I had a very padded childhood as opposed to my friend, Dr. Joe. My parents actually took an active interest in what I was watching.

[01:29:17] joe: My

parents did, too. It just, there was just,

you know. I enjoyed The Thing, man

[01:29:22] nick: What?

[01:29:23] Chris_G: I’ve never heard

[01:29:24] nick: heard

you say

[01:29:24] joe: saw Poltergeist The Thing. I saw Po- I mean, yeah. Yeah.

Anyway.

[01:29:30] Chris_G: Loved

it. I also read, there, there was a book.

[01:29:32] Mary: Oh, yeah. William Kotzwinkle wrote it

[01:29:34] Chris_G: There was a really great book.

It was a novelization of what happened afterwards.

[01:29:39] joe: Oh. Okay, Okay.

I mean, E.T.?

Yeah. Oh,

[01:29:41] Mary: I didn’t… What’s it… Do you know what it’s called? Okay. I

[01:29:43] Chris_G: get that to you,

[01:29:43] joe: though. Yeah,

definitely. That’d be awesome. I’ll put that in the show notes.

And

[01:29:46] Chris_G: it was a lot about the gardening. Because these were creatures that were very interested in growing things.

And they did some interior shots of the ship, and there were all these things growing. Interesting enough Spielberg said that when they were doing up [01:30:00] sketchbooks of, he sent it out to a bunch of people, “Show me what’s going on in the chest.” A lot of people are like, “This is probably mammalian or reptilian or what- whatever type.”

And one artist submitted, “I believe it might be plant-like on the inside.” Yeah. And Spielberg kinda latched himself onto that. That interior of that animal would be plant-ish. I don’t know what that looks like. I don’t know what that sketchbook looked like on that day,

[01:30:26] joe: Yeah.

[01:30:26] Chris_G: but there’s so many roads that were not traveled with this.

This movie was underestimated, and it is still talked about to this day.

[01:30:36] joe: Yeah. I was gonna say one is the the skin and the look are more cephalopod, so octopus, squid.

The kind of the, the skin texture, the veiny-ness. If you’ve seen

[01:30:46] Chris_G: What? Nothing.

[01:30:46] Mary: What? Nothing.

[01:30:47] joe: If you’ve seen

[01:30:48] Mary: The peanut gallery over there … Right. Yeah.

[01:30:50] joe: you have that, the color-changing, things like that. That was also inspiration for the outer look of the E.T. In, in the show, so,[01:31:00]

[01:31:00] Chris_G: Thank you for that cephalopod synopsis.

[01:31:02] joe: Thank you for that cephalopod suggestion.

Cephalopod, yeah,

[01:31:02] Mary: Well,

you know what-

[01:31:03] joe: That’s it

[01:31:04] Mary: you know what this conversation reminds me a little bit of is,

[01:31:07] joe: The Gremlins

conversation? No.

[01:31:08] Chris_G: Did you ever,

did anyb-

[01:31:09] georgia: me a

[01:31:10] Mary: Did you ever… Did anyb- did anybody here watch Tommy Boy?

[01:31:13] joe: in

[01:31:13] Chris_G: Oh, very

[01:31:14] joe: very

[01:31:14] Mary: I’ve s- I’ve seen it a million times. Love it. Right. The… Well, the moment where they’re in the car and The Carpenters come on.

[01:31:22] nick: Oh.

[01:31:23] Mary: Like-

[01:31:23] joe: pleasure. lame.

lame. We

[01:31:25] Chris_G: change it if you want. Yeah. You could change it.

[01:31:28] Mary: sure you

[01:31:28] georgia: it.

[01:31:29] nick: it.

[01:31:29] georgia: No, true.

[01:31:29] nick: No, it’s true.

[01:31:29] Mary: remember Tommy. I know. Baby. But just the idea is like God forbid we just like something just tender and sweet

[01:31:37] joe: I know.

[01:31:38] georgia: know.

[01:31:39] joe: mean- I mean, you

can. Okay. No, you can.

Like I said, my, my thing

[01:31:42] Mary: not- It’s a thousand percent … and it’s not a,

[01:31:43] joe: a good movie.

I, said a good movie,

I just don’t think it’s the

great…

In the, the lineup of 82 movies, I just don’t think it was-

[01:31:52] georgia: Why do we have to make that a competition?

[01:31:54] joe: do we have to make that a competition? Well, I mean, because it is.

[01:31:56] georgia: No. That’s not, we weren’t here not what we were- The show’s about [01:32:00] lists. I mean-

[01:32:00] joe: I to g- a- absolutely. Not everyone- Absolutely

[01:32:03] Mary: it’s not for everyone, obviously. But- I

[01:32:04] joe: think the movie- Yeah … because of its it was

I would go, I think it’s one of the first blockbusters that really catered to kids that kids were

seen- as a money maker,

right? Because up to that point,

[01:32:16] Chris_G: Star Wars didn’t cater to kids?

[01:32:18] georgia: I don’t think so.

[01:32:19] nick: think- Eh. It

[01:32:20] georgia: those toys

[01:32:20] joe: have the toys. I mean, there was

hands cut off. You’re right, the toys came after, and I think that sparked this whole thing that, oh, you know what? You can have a movie.

But Star Wars was kind of viol- I

mean, it was,

meh, I mean, kids, you know, I watched it with, I mean, when our oldest was five, I mean, he freaked out at the hand cutting off scenes. It was not

[01:32:37] Chris_G: like- No blood,

[01:32:38] Mary: blood, though.

[01:32:38] joe: There was blood though … there wasn’t But- Zero

cauterizing

[01:32:40] Chris_G: blood. Cauterizing

[01:32:41] joe: I think E.T. was kind of the first where it was like, let’s make this a movie and just focus on kids and roll the dice, and I think that’s why it really hit where it hit because it was

[01:32:53] Chris_G: Not just make a movie for kids, and make it in the, in, from the viewpoint of kids, but put real [01:33:00] Hollywood muscle behind

[01:33:01] joe: That’s right.

Yeah.

[01:33:02] Chris_G: yep, yep.

[01:33:03] joe: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But

it also

[01:33:04] Mary: to adults, too. Absolutely.

[01:33:06] Chris_G: all day.

[01:33:07] Mary: went … You know, it’s just, it just struck a chord with so

many-

[01:33:09] nick: right. All

[01:33:10] joe: I will say the point

[01:33:11] georgia: universal, like, I, you know … Hold on. If you

[01:33:13] nick: haven’t seen ET before, would you still have the same nostalgia with it?

[01:33:19] georgia: It’s impossible to really know.

Like, I’m ready

[01:33:21] Chris_G: that. I’m gonna give you that Yeah. Yeah. I’m not sure I would

[01:33:24] nick: Like I get it.

I get it.

You guys have so much more nostalgia for it than I do, and

[01:33:31] georgia: I,

[01:33:31] nick: seeing it again,

I just didn’t have that feeling.

[01:33:35] Chris_G: fair.

[01:33:35] nick: It never hit that chord with

[01:33:37] joe: me. yeah. That’s fair. Yeah.

[01:33:38] Mary: You know, not everyone… It’s, nothing is gonna be to everybody’s taste. It’s just the… I don’t know, it just, it’s just, it’s sweet. And, you know, it, there’s a lot of ridiculous things that happen in it. The most ridiculous thing that ever has happened in a movie is at the end of Ghostbusters, okay?

You spend the whole movie, “We shouldn’t cross the streams.

[01:33:58] joe: you coming back for We cross, we cross the stream, and then we’re fine. And then the

movie ends. And Chris was fine. He’s like, “Oh, okay.”[01:34:00]

[01:34:00] georgia: the streams-

[01:34:00] Mary: the

[01:34:00] Chris_G: streams-

[01:34:01] Mary: and then we’re fine.” And then the movie ends, “I guess it was fine.” I’m like, “Okay. All right. Fine.” yeah. Okay. I know. It’s, it’s-

[01:34:07] joe: Chris is

[01:34:07] Chris_G: I think Chris

[01:34:09] Mary: and I were friends up until

[01:34:10] Chris_G: back for that Ghostbusters

episode.

[01:34:12] nick: this

show.

[01:34:12] Mary: And

[01:34:13] nick: back for that

[01:34:14] Chris_G: And you make sure

Mary’s

[01:34:15] Mary: right there. I’m

[01:34:16] joe: was gonna point

out

something,

[01:34:17] Chris_G: I’ll bring two pairs of

[01:34:18] Mary: I for

[01:34:19] nick: what

[01:34:19] joe: it’s-

We’re gonna

[01:34:19] Mary: For what it’s worth, I do like Ghostbusters a lot, but yeah. Yeah. I think

[01:34:23] joe: I think that’s worth an episode. Yeah.

And so there it is. For sure. Chris has it there. Absolutely

But I’ma I’ma point out the point of view, and then we can wrap, but the point of view, something I heard about Jurassic Park and Michael Crichton, who wrote that the first draft of that was actually written from the POV of the kid

And it

was like this great, I mean, it was a great idea.

People were like, “This is the greatest idea we’ve heard. You know, we’re gonna make, take dinosaurs, make an amusement park,” but this POV sucks. And so he went back- Yeah … and wrote it from the adult point of view, and that’s that. So …I

think that helps, and I think ET really benefited from being from the point of view [01:35:00] of the kid.

I think if it was

told from the point of view of the adult, it would’ve been, or as a, you know, anything else, it would’ve slipped into maybe more horror, maybe more psychological. It wouldn’t have been the movie that it was. So I’d think point of view is important, and when that movie came out, that was one where it really focused on that kids’,

you know- Yes point of view is, could make money. I think that was it, and that, that cracked that open for all those movies that came after that that it was like, this is a money maker.”

[01:35:28] Chris_G: There’s importance versus good. Not all good movies are important.

[01:35:31] georgia: they

[01:35:32] joe: it.

I think- That’s, why a lot

of these you know, CEOs and things missed it, because it was written from that, that POV.

[01:35:38] Mary: written for

[01:35:38] joe: And they

just didn’t realize that would work in movie format, not animated. Yeah, animated we get, “Oh, yeah, that, that would work.” But I think this was that these kids would drag their parents there. I mean, except me. I dragged my dad to The Thing. But that was, you know.

But all

right.

Any final thoughts? Chris, you got final thoughts? Then we can go ahead and wrap it up.

[01:35:57] Chris_G: I wanna thank you guys for having me again.

[01:35:59] joe: for [01:36:00]

[01:36:00] nick: thank you for being

[01:36:01] joe: it, yeah. Thank

[01:36:01] Chris_G: very

[01:36:02] joe: now. I got, I’m putting that on

my list. Season four, Ghostbusters.

Fanta-

[01:36:05] Chris_G: Oh, let’s do

that. Yes, Let’s do that. I’ll get a

[01:36:09] joe: net.

[01:36:09] Chris_G: Shower that day.

Like- It’ll be

fantastic. Like,

[01:36:11] georgia: fantastic.

[01:36:11] Mary: Whatever you do, don’t cut the goatee. The goatee is magnificent. Oh. It w- it

[01:36:15] Chris_G: is- Oh … it’s magnificent. My wife is ready to, to

trim this

[01:36:17] Mary: we, it’s, we have a long, white goatee here.

[01:36:19] Chris_G: Ange, you’re gonna listen to this- Okay … in, like, what? September, October.

[01:36:24] joe: like that, Yeah. Yeah.

yeah. It’s coming out right in there, yep.

[01:36:25] Mary: She’s coming

[01:36:26] Chris_G: after Halloween is

when this goes away. Th- this is gonna be a handlebar mustache.

[01:36:31] Mary: Oh. Yeah, you’ll see. There’s a reason for this. So it’s

[01:36:34] Chris_G: be red,

white, and blue in a couple of days. Oh, yeah.

[01:36:36] joe: Oh, yeah.

Okay, wow. So,

[01:36:37] Chris_G: so tune into your Facebook channels for that. Tune in. But it’s gonna be out past my ears by the time I’m done with

[01:36:42] joe: Speaking of that, give your links where people can find you, things like that,

[01:36:45] Chris_G: Oh, I’m on Instagram, theboxinggloveartist. I also have a food page on Instagram called stupidgoodgrill, all one word, and Chris Guzman on on Facebook. Good work. Good artist. Go check out

[01:36:50] joe: food page on Instagram. Yeah. Called

[01:36:52] georgia: Good

[01:36:53] joe: stupidgoodgrill, all

one word. Yeah.

[01:36:54] Chris_G: Yes.

[01:36:54] joe: And Chris Guzman. Yeah. Good griller, good artist. Go check out the artwork.

Go buy [01:37:00] some boxing gloves, ’cause they’re, they are awesome.

[01:37:02] Chris_G: You’re very good stuff, so. Yeah. With that, anyone else have any last words or anything? With that, I’m Joe.

[01:37:08] georgia: You got Nick.

[01:37:09] joe: got Nick. We got Nick. Georgia. We

got Georgia.

[01:37:11] Mary: got Mary.

[01:37:11] joe: We got Mary.

[01:37:13] nick: And we went Down Some Hole. Down some hole. Stay safe. Bye-bye.

Newsletter and Transcript of Rabbit Hole of Research Episode 83: The Mini: The Cloud

Fire Amoeba, Downtown Chicago Data Centers, Tempe Lake evaporation rates, and it’s confirmed, David is the first three time guest!

In Episode 83: The Mini, Joe, Nick, and Georgia recap Episode 82: Data Centers: Are We Really Blowing Up the Planet for AI Slop and Porn? with confirmed, three-peat returning guest and Friend of the Pod, David Pincus, PhD. The crew follows up on the CoreWeave/Hammond deal, corrects the Tempe Town Lake numbers, and it’s way more than Joe thought. Georgia talks about discovering a massive data center in downtown Chicago. In Science Holes, Joe discusses the fire amoeba and Nvidia claims to reduce data center water use to near zero. Plus the crew takes you down the Media Hole of what they have been watching, reading, and playing.

LISTEN TO EPISODE 83

Substack, Apple, Spotify, YouTube, Amazon

Episode 83 Transcript

Episode 82: Data Centers

Order the Touch of Noir 2027 Wall Calendar by Jim and Georgia—

12 months of all-original art by Jim and Georgia; pre-orders open now, with mailing expected in September

Words // Friends with Sara: Replay on YouTube

Jump to Joe’s Reading (But you should listen to all the amazing authors)

Check out what the RHR crew is creating:

Joe:

Named by the Guild Literary Complex as one of the 35 Writers to Watch!
Red Line: Chicago Horror Stories Anthology featuring a new story by Joe!
Joe’s Sci-fi physiological thriller Novel: Will You Still Love Me If I Become Someone Else?

Leave a comment

It’s science for Weirdos

Stay curious, stay speculative, stay safe, and we’ll catch you in the next rabbit hole. Love Y’all!

Hang with the Crew:

Podcast Cross-Appearances:

Watch Joe on Joe Compton’s YouTube channel 21Grams
The RHR crew on Ben Tanzer’s This podcast will change your life: episode three hundred seventy-nine

Events & Conventions:

Joe:

Maud’s READINGS at Printer’s Row Wine on Sep 19th 2-4pm
Art show Ultrastructure: Science is Fun, with Carol Estes at Promise You Art House in Highland IN, October 10th, 10-3pm
Family Day: Seeing the Invisible World to Build a New One; in conjunction with the fall exhibition: teamLab: Everything Exists in Infinite Continuity, at the Smart Museum of Art In Hyde Park, IL, Nov 14th, 11-3pm
Art and Science lecture about Zombies: Dec 10th

Georgia:

The inaugural 4th Street Print Fest at Chesterton Art Center on Saturday, October 3, from 1–4 PM

Upcoming Episodes

*The Mini will now be every other episode!

Episode 84: ETGuest: Chris Guzman (@theboxinggloveartist)
Episode 86: Disability in HorrorGuest: Grace Daly (Bram Stoker nominee)

Leave a comment

What the Crew is Digging, Links, Resources, and Topics Mentioned in mini and/or full episode:

Links & Resources:

CoreWeave / Hammond, Indiana:
- The development agreement expired on the June 30th, 2026. So no data center for now:
- Original approval (June 2025): https://www.gohammond.com/hammond-approves-development-agreement-for-new-data-center/
- Deal expired (July 1, 2026): https://www.gohammond.com/hammond-announces-expiration-of-data-center-development-agreement/
Jobs Created by Data Centers — Brookings Institute:
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/new-evidence-on-data-center-employment-effects/
Tempe Town Lake Water Loss — City of Tempe:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempe_Town_Lake
Lakeside Technology Center — Chicago (near McCormick Place)https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/chicago-data-center-inside-look

Science Holes:

Newly Discovered Fire AmoebaArticle: Rappaport, H. B. et al. Preprint at bioRxiv https://doi.org/10.1101/2025.11.24.690213 (2025).A newly discovered organism, Incendiamoeba cascadensis, nicknamed the fire amoeba, was found living in the hot springs of Lassen Volcanic National Park in Northern California’s Cascade Mountain Range. It can thrive at temperatures up to 64°C making it the most heat-tolerant eukaryotic cell ever discovered (they use electron microscopy!). This challenges the long-held notion that complex cells with a nucleus can’t survive extreme temperatures the way bacteria and archaea can. The current bacterial heat record holder is Methanopyrus kandleri at 122°C. The upper heat limit for human cells is around 43°C/ 109°F, and not for long. A core body temperature reaching 40°C / 104°F causes heat stroke, and reaching 42°C / 107.6°F can cause irreversible organ damage or death, long before your core temperature gets to 43°C. And to Nick’s hot tub point: the comfortable hot tub temperature is 100°F – 102°F (37.8°C – 38.9°C) which is preferred by most Jacuzzi users lasting 15 to 20 minutes.2) AI Data Center Designed to Run Hotter and Uses Less WaterArticle: Nvidia says its AI data center design runs hotter to use a lot less water(The Verge)
Nvidia claims that by switching to dry cooling combined with liquid loops they can run their servers at higher temperatures, up to 113°F (45°C). Which means their new data centers can cut water use to near zero. Amazon has also claimed higher heat tolerances for its air-cooled data centers. Nvidia’s does discuss the cost of building this style of data center compared to conventional air-cooled alternatives.

Science Terms

Eukaryote — an organism whose cells contain a nucleus and organelles; includes all animals, plants, fungi, and protists. Our cells are eukaryotic.
Prokaryote — an organism whose cells lack a nucleus; includes bacteria and archaea.
Extremophile — an organism that thrives in extreme environmental conditions such as high temperature, acidity, or pressure.
Protist — a diverse group of eukaryotic organisms that are not plants, animals, or fungi; amoebas fall into this category.
Cyst — a dormant, protective form some organisms can form to survive harsh conditions.
Archaea — single-celled microorganisms similar to bacteria but genetically distinct; many are extremophiles.
Liquid cooling — a method of removing heat from hardware using liquid (typically water or coolant) circulated through pipes directly in contact with heat-generating components.
Dry cooler — a heat exchanger that uses outside air and fans to cool a circulating liquid, without using water evaporation, unlike a cooling tower.
Cooling tower — a conventional system that uses water evaporation to dissipate heat from industrial processes and data centers.
Liquid loop — a closed circuit of coolant that absorbs heat at the source and carries it away to be released elsewhere.

Media Holes: What the Crew is Digging:

TV and Films

Trying — Apple TV+
Dark Matter Season 2 — Apple TV+
Lanterns — HBO/Max

Movies

Vacation Friends — 2021

Books

Bird by Bird — Anne Lamott, 1995
Intrigue — Silvia Moreno-Garcia, 2025
The Girls We Send Away — Meagan Church, 2024

Video Games

007: First Light — IO Interactive, 2025

“Stay curious, stay safe… Love Y’all!”

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Transcript

[00:00:00] joe: Hey, welcome back to the Rabbit Hole of Research down here in the basement studio for the mini

[00:00:09] Nick: The mini bomb

[00:00:12] joe: Da-da-dun-da-dun. You’ve got me, Joe

[00:00:16] Nick: You got neck

[00:00:17] joe: got Nick.

[00:00:18] georgia: Georgia

[00:00:19] joe: got Georgia here talking about the cloud. We had David Pincus on with us talking

[00:00:29] Nick: us in the cloud here,

Joe?

[00:00:31] joe: center, I can find you in the cloud. Wanted to clean some stuffs up out of that episode. People ask questions, so I confirmed that David was the first three-time guest, so he’s officially in the lead.

But we got Bill Halliar and Reed locals Melissa are hot on his heel with their third appearances coming in October. [00:01:00] So who will

make it to

[00:01:03] Nick: doesn’t, last long, does it?

[00:01:05] georgia: He’s coming.

[00:01:05] joe: No. Who will make it to four? So

that was,

[00:01:10] Nick: my money’s on David.

[00:01:12] joe: David.

He… You’re right

[00:01:13] Nick: he’s gonna come on early next year. He’s gonna be like, “Hey, I heard my title’s at risk,” and he’s gonna be like, “Yeah, this is where we’re

[00:01:20] joe: And Bill and Melissa usually are in the horror month, so that’s when they usually come in. So that, that puts them in October. It’s a little disadvantage. I don’t know. We’ll see.

[00:01:29] georgia: see

[00:01:29] Nick: Gonna have to do two two episodes

[00:01:31] joe: Yeah,

[00:01:31] Nick: Halloween.

[00:01:33] joe: Have to get in there.

[00:01:36] georgia: So

[00:01:36] joe: So there was another thing that came up was about how many jobs were created by data centers after their construction is done.

So that was a question we didn’t have a answer on the mini. But the Brookings Institute, a little more than five, I just wanna thank you, Sid, on the episode. They’ve done some studies on this, and most, operational facilities, they employ seven [00:02:00] dozens to roughly 150 people on site for security, maintenance, and IT systems.

The larger campuses can support up to 200 permanent roles. So we’re talking somewhere between , several dozen to 200 people running these data centers. So not tons of jobs.

So, we were talking about local politics. CoreWeave in Hammond, Indiana, were trying to make a deal to build a big data center, and that vote was going to happen after the release.

And so following up on that, the deal actually expired, so it has not been approved. So it was a expiration of data center development agreement happened,

[00:02:46] Nick: Oh, yeah

[00:02:47] georgia: But that could come back.

[00:02:49] joe: They could make a different agreement, but the deal that Mary was talking about on that episode fell apart

And I’ll put all the links to all this stuff in the show notes. [00:03:00]

And we mentioned data centers mostly going up into dry places, and we kinda talked about it, but just reenter. They usually go there because of evaporative cooling. So you’re taking advantage of the very dry environment there.

And on that point about evaporative cooling, I had talked about the Tempe Town Lake in Arizona, and I said it loses 1 million gallons of water a year. I was off a little bit. It’s actually by this town, city of Tempe’s own reporting about 1.7 million gallons of water loss every day- What?

Leading to, you know, 600 million, 650 million gallons a year that never go back into the Colorado River.

[00:03:44] georgia: What? And

[00:03:45] joe: yeah. So that’s right. So the v- it’s kind

of this artificial

[00:03:49] Nick: huge– Like don’t they do environmental checks and all that? Like

[00:03:54] joe: Yeah, they pay credits and they fill it back up and,, people go fishing. They stock it with trout and stuff like that, [00:04:00] so everyone’s happy to have a artificial lake in the middle of the desert. And to put that in context,

context,

a medium-sized data center can consume up to 110 million gallons of water every year, and large facilities can be between one million and five million gallons of water every day peak demand.

So that’s about 350 million to 1.8 billion gallons of water for a big facility. So these data centers are, some of these artificial lakes that are out there are, in that same wasteful kind of, of water loss area. And for houses, a single home uses about 300 gallons of water per day,

And about 70%, this is Nick, you had asked about how that water is used at a home, 70% is indoor use. The bathroom is the largest portion of that. And outdoor water is about 30% for watering gardens and things like that. In regions like Arizona, Georgia, I [00:05:00] mentioned flood kind of irrigation of lawns it goes up to about 60% of the home’s total water usage is for watering lawns out there in the sunny state of Arizona.

[00:05:12] Nick: Just saying So

you’re responsible.

[00:05:15] joe: So yeah, so that’s our how we use water. So when we talk about these data centers and water use, at a personal level, we don’t use as much, like we’re not get- approaching millions of gallons a day, but we still are fairly wasteful. But just something to think about .

So yeah, that was all, that’s what I had. Some of the things we talked about and putting some facts and numbers to it, just put it all in perspective. But

[00:05:43] Nick: I feel like this is– this wasn’t as dark of an episode as we could and have gone for some of these

[00:05:51] joe: Yeah, no, it was pretty good. I thought it was well-balanced the pros and cons of it all, like we talked about.

[00:05:59] georgia: [00:06:00] I do think data centers are necessary in the fact that we’re using them for computing But do we need exponentially- Right, Mm-hmm … increase

Yeah, no, it was pretty good. I thought it was you know, it was well-balanced the pros and cons of it all, you know, like we talked about I mean, I do think data centers are necessary in, in, in, oh, I mean, in the fact that we’re using a lot of computing and we are using a lot of storage, but do we need to exponentially- Right

increase them and make all these huge data centers? And it seems like it’s only to support these, billionaires and these people that I feel like it’s just gonna be a bubble that’s gonna get burst anyway. And so who’s gonna end up really paying for that- Right … and the cost of that?

[00:06:34] joe: Right. Yeah. Yep. No, I think

[00:06:38] Nick: always seems to be the, the final question is what is the actual cost?

[00:06:43] joe: And what are we using it for, and is it worth that cost, right? ‘Cause I think there are things Talking about water and then when we

[00:06:49] georgia: Whatever you’re using it for, you know, is it worth that cost? Right, and especially talking about water. I know when we lost power recently I thought, and I really do feel like, I mean, it was bad and it was like 10, 11 days without power, but all I kept thinking was like, [00:07:00] as long as we still have water, you know what I mean?

I think not

[00:07:05] Nick: Oh, 100%.

[00:07:06] georgia: having water is- Right … yeah. So it’s just really scary to think about, but.

[00:07:13] joe: I mean, we need water to live. Can’t live very long without it, so it, of course, it’s gonna be top o’ mind when we think about it, so,

[00:07:22] georgia: But I did walk past a data center when I was in Chicago. It’s in the neighborhood of M- McCormick Place, and I’m just walking by and then , my friend that lives there is like, “Oh, what is this building?” And it’s this really historic building. But it was a data center and you really couldn’t hear anything.

Mm-hmm. But I guess what it was is it was built into this existing building-

[00:07:50] joe: Mm-hmm

[00:07:51] georgia: and in such a way that it was so isolated inside that you didn’t end up hearing it.

[00:07:59] joe: it, right. [00:08:00] Was it a small… probably a

smaller- Yeah,

Huh?

A smaller data center?

[00:08:04] georgia: I think that was a really pretty big building. One of those really big historic buildings- Mm-hmm

and they took up the whole… But I should have probably done more research before this

[00:08:16] joe: to

[00:08:16] georgia: like say which data center and how big it was. Yeah. But I was really surprised that-

[00:08:22] joe: Yep

[00:08:23] georgia: Yeah … that it was right there in the middle of the city- Mm-hmm … and I would’ve had no idea. Yeah.

[00:08:29] joe: Yeah.

[00:08:30] georgia: Mean-

[00:08:30] Nick: Yeah, I don’t think I would’ve known

[00:08:32] georgia: but I do think, so it really depends on some urban planning and, how these things are done.

And then we talked about this in the episode a little bit, but also how can those data centers be built in a way that can be using some of the byproducts,

wisely,, like a greenhouse or… You know what I mean? Like we talked a little bit about that.

[00:08:58] joe: So quickly [00:09:00] looked, it’s the Lakeside Technology Center.

It’s right next to the McCormick Place Convention Center, managed by Digital Re- Realty. The building was originally a printing facility for telephone books which no one uses those, Me

[00:09:16] georgia: which, who uses those? Repurpose … now housing a giant data hub,

[00:09:17] joe: a giant data hub,

and it really… I was gonna mention, usually in the cities, it acts as a major carrier for the hotel as internet connectivity hub for the Midwest, powering cloud services, social media, and city infrastructure.

So that’s right there.

[00:09:33] georgia: Yeah.

[00:09:35] joe: People don’t even realize that, so yeah. But right downtown, yeah. It’s cool looking at some of the pictures. Put those links the

the in the show notes

[00:09:45] Nick: Oh, is it a small– So it is a smaller one though, right? Like

[00:09:48] georgia: pretty

[00:09:49] joe: Yeah, it looks like a fairly large…

It’s 1.1 million square feet of space. Cooling racks, tanks outside hold 8.5 million gallons of liquid, and [00:10:00] so they’re not using fresh water directly from Lake Michigan. They’re using a closed loop system that they’re using to chill probably, yeah, so they chill the water down using water chillers, and then that’s distributed through in this kind of closed loop system, so.

, probably can do a little more research, but I’ll throw this link in there, and folks can go down the rabbit hole.

[00:10:22] Nick: Hell yeah

[00:10:24] joe: so as these things pop up, you might see it in your neighborhood near you

[00:10:30] Nick: I hope not.

[00:10:32] georgia: Right

[00:10:32] joe: yeah. Or at least hopefully they plan for it or they do something like we talked in the episode, community gets involved

[00:10:38] georgia: know what?

[00:10:39] joe: there’s benefits somehow.

[00:10:41] georgia: you know, so Just looking at how, I’m not gonna name names, but how certain utility companies Mm-hmm It seems… Anyway

[00:10:50] Nick: are we not allowed to drop

[00:10:52] joe: looking at how, I’m not gonna name names, but how certain utility companies Yeah It seems… Anyway. Going out about it and dropping names. But, yeah. I’m just,

[00:10:53] georgia: I’m just saying I don’t know if I trust-

[00:10:55] joe: I don’t know … trust- But we’ll see. I may not sound… [00:11:00] Industries build and you gotta take what you can and control what you can.

So- Yeah … either they come in and you don’t ask for anything, and then they still come in and you get nothing or, work, try to work with them and hold their feet to the fire and make it work, so.

[00:11:13] georgia: Yeah, I don’t know.

[00:11:14] joe: Yeah, I don’t know. But yeah. Otherwise, got some events coming up. After this release, I’ll be doing some readings at Printers Row Wine, September 19th, an art show October 10th, and-

[00:11:29] georgia: print festival October 3rd … a

[00:11:31] joe: 3rd.

Print Festival Georgia that’s going out, the inaugural 4th Street Print Fest. So we’ll put links to all of these. There’s a family day at the Smart Museum. I’ll be giving some demonstrations and a lecture. And in December, I’ll be doing a return to an art and science series, do another lecture about the science of zombies. and we’ll remind you of all these, let’s have it, if you subscribe to the newsletter you’ll see all these dates in there, and we’ll be updating it.

[00:11:58] Nick: Oh, [00:12:00] dang.

[00:12:00] joe: be a lot of fun, but Revisiting zombies. So yeah. So bunch of things

coming

[00:12:05] Nick: don’t you also have a calendar that is coming out or came out, right?

[00:12:10] georgia: thanks. Yeah. Yeah, well, we got it from the printer, so it is available. Touch of Noir 2027 wall calendar.

[00:12:19] joe: And people who, if you’re subscribed to the newsletter, get that email. It’s been in there for a little bit. People got the pre-orders. I know a few people have gotten their calendars already that ordered on there, and it’s still time to get a calendar, so- Plenty of time before the- Yep

[00:12:34] georgia: know a few people have gotten their calendars already that ordered on there, and there’s still time to get one. Right. Plenty of time before the new year

[00:12:35] joe: You’ll see

[00:12:35] Nick: Oh, wait, one more thing. Hey, Joe, do you can you also throw, go ahead and throw in the link to your reading that you did what, last week?

[00:12:43] joe: Oh, the yes, with Sarah. Yep, friends.

[00:12:47] georgia: And I really

[00:12:48] joe: I knew it The Zoom link. Yes, I, I, yep, yep, I actually

[00:12:51] Nick: ‘Cause,

[00:12:51] joe: can do that, yeah

[00:12:53] Nick: I didn’t listen to it live, but, , going back and using that link for the, you know, already recorded session,

[00:12:59] joe: [00:13:00] Mm-hmm. On

[00:13:00] Nick: just as good.

[00:13:01] joe: Yeah.

[00:13:02] georgia: I knew it tasted good Yeah,

[00:13:02] Nick: one knows.

[00:13:03] georgia: wasn’t it good?

[00:13:05] Nick: one knows the difference that it wasn’t live.

[00:13:07] georgia: it was just some great writing. Wow

[00:13:10] Nick: But

[00:13:11] joe: Yes. That was really fun. I had a good time. Read poetry for the most part. So I’ll throw that link in there so that’s there.

Yeah, Sarah did putting that together really great, and I think it’s a series that she does every quarter it

[00:13:25] georgia: it sounds like. It’s called Words…

[00:13:27] joe: yeah. Words, friends, and- Words

[00:13:30] georgia: With Friends? Yeah

[00:13:32] joe: just Words and then a couple backslashes, Friends with Sarah. So, but yeah, I’ll put the link to the YouTube channel with that so that you can go check it out and see me read and see the other four poets that yeah, did a great job.

It was very inspiring and cool. All right. You guys wanna keep motoring [00:14:00] along? Go down the science holes

[00:14:03] Nick: Yeah, let’s go on down.

[00:14:05] joe: Let’s do it. All right. You

wanna

[00:14:07] Nick: honest with you, I didn’t prepare for this week.

[00:14:10] joe: You didn’t

prepare

[00:14:12] Nick: is prepared.

[00:14:12] joe: Well,

[00:14:13] Nick: George, are you…

[00:14:16] georgia: that I wanted to visit, but then I didn’t give any heads up on it, so then I feel like I have to wait on those, but- All right.

[00:14:23] joe: have some science holes that I wanted to visit, but then I didn’t give any heads up on it, so then I feel like I have to wait on those, but- All right. I got two really quick since, it’s

[00:14:26] georgia: since, Like- Do you want me to pull out one of mine?

[00:14:28] joe: I’ll go through my two, and if you feel motivated, we can do it.

So cool and is that the newly discovered amoeba that likes it hot. So this am- the amoeba- I

[00:14:40] georgia: it

[00:14:40] joe: it … we had talked about it. It’s in… It’s kind of a protist, so it’s not plant, fungus, bacteria. It’s in its own eukaryotic family, a little different, and it’s called the fire amoeba Incendieamoeba

[00:14:54] georgia: amoeba

[00:14:56] joe: cassidinis, which translates to fire amoeba.[00:15:00]

It was discovered at the Lassen Volcanic National Park in Northern California’s Cascade Mountain Range. What’s really special was that a lot of eukaryotes, so remember eukaryotes have a nucleus, they have organelles. We’re– Our cells are all eukaryotic versus prokaryotic, which are like bacteria cells, and don’t have a nucleus.

One of the distinguishing features that separate the two. And so most eukaryotes cannot live at extreme temperatures like that. But this organism can live up to 64 degrees Celsius.

[00:15:35] georgia: I ask a question?

[00:15:37] joe: Sure. Is

[00:15:38] georgia: Is it an extremophile?

[00:15:40] joe: And that’s exactly right.

[00:15:41] Nick: did I know that’s where

[00:15:43] joe: It would be… I was getting there. It would be an extremophile. Exactly right. And if we think of bacteria, like the bacteria and archae extremophiles they can withstand even much hotter temperatures all the way up to, like, 122 degrees Celsius. [00:16:00] So, a few species of fungi and red algae held the previous record for eukaryotes, and the upper limit for humans and other mammalian cells seems to be around 43 C. Kind of warm there. So 43 Celsius is about 109 degrees Fahrenheit,

[00:16:18] Nick: I have a question for you, Joe.

[00:16:19] joe: Yes

[00:16:21] Nick: I can go from these two extremes. Does that mean I’m an extremophile?

[00:16:25] joe: Went too extreme. Sorry

[00:16:27] Nick: you know, going really cold or up to 109.

[00:16:31] joe: No at 109 you’re gonna be dying, so

[00:16:34] Nick: No, you’re not. You’re at, like, a nice hot tub

[00:16:36] joe: No, that 109 Fahrenheit that’s above a fever. I’m talking about your core temperature. You can’t live at that. That’s … Or long. I mean, it’s pretty hot. Yep.

[00:16:46] georgia: Yeah.

[00:16:47] joe: 63 degrees Celsius is about 145 degrees Fahrenheit, so that’s there.

So, but yeah, that’s, that was cool to see that, and I talked about the record 122. [00:17:00] You’re getting up to,

251 degrees Fahrenheit, so that’s like, you know,

[00:17:04] georgia: close

[00:17:05] joe: close to boiling. So above boiling, yeah, ’cause 100 degrees Celsius is boiling water. So yeah, y- the bacteria can live in very high temperatures, some of them.

So that’s really fascinating that they discovered, and this, sets, you know, you kinda think about it, you go, oh we talk here all life and the boundaries of it, but here’s just this new thing which kind of questions the notion of eukaryotic life what, how extreme conditions can be tolerated by organ- organisms that we thought we had a handle on.

So yeah, kinda cool

[00:17:38] georgia: that’s cool.

[00:17:40] joe: I’ll put the links to that. The other one that’s related to the episode was Nvidia. So they make all of these chips, the, the GPUs that kind of power the data centers. They say its AI data center design would run hotter and it can use a lot less water. [00:18:00] And so they had, like, this blog post.

They talk about this new style of data center using their new chips, and they can cut water use to near zero. And so because they can run their data servers higher, as high as 113 degrees Fahrenheit or 45 degrees Celsius, that they can have their chips, and they can use, these liquid loops operating at these higher temperatures you can run then and have much more flexibility when it comes to ambient air and evaporation and things like that. So it was kind of, you know, blog posts. They really didn’t talk about how much it costs to build a center like this or, you know, anything else or comparisons or compare it to a, a air cooling less efficient kind of data center.

So really just a teaser, but it’s interesting that… I know David had brought up about trying to find new ways to be more efficient, so this might be the start of that. But we’ll see what happens with that. But just thought I’d throw [00:19:00] that out that Nvidia says they are

[00:19:02] Nick: and while we’re on NVIDIA I do have a gripe with them still for raising all of the GPU prices

[00:19:10] joe: yeah.

[00:19:12] Nick: I have a– I’m very upset by all this.

[00:19:15] joe: And I will say that Amazon had similarly touted higher heat tolerances as part of making its mostly air-cooled data centers more efficient. So, yeah, I don’t know. Maybe these companies are listening, trying to do something, or are they just being more efficient so they can pack more in and, meet demand?

Kinda we talked about that on the episode, that the more efficient, then the more use. So I had those two. I don’t know. We can put a pin in it till next science hole.

[00:19:47] georgia: Mm-hmm. Okay. All

[00:19:48] joe: All right. Well, that’s it. How

about- All right.

[00:19:52] Nick: What kind of what, what kind of media have you guys been consuming lately?

[00:19:55] georgia: Well we caught up in the, on the show Trying [00:20:00] Mm-hmm. Yeah we went through all five seasons.

[00:20:04] joe: seasons. So the new season, ’cause they were, they had the fifth season was being released, and then the finale. So we watched, like, the day before the finale, we finished, and then it was late enough in the evening that the finale had dropped, so we just went ahead and watched it.

So no, it was really good. Liked the show. Yeah, really a good story. I think, Georgia, you mentioned had that Gilmore Girls vibe

[00:20:30] georgia: Yeah, ’cause it had like com- it was funny, but realistic, in the sense like you really got to know the characters. Mm-hmm. And so it was a nice kind of escape-

Yeah

[00:20:42] joe: Yep. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Check it out. Yeah. And

[00:20:46] Nick: Maybe I’ll have to check it out

[00:20:48] georgia: Yeah.

[00:20:48] joe: it kind of covers just family. The center’s around a couple who cannot have children, naturally, so they adopt and go through that process. And so, and then they have [00:21:00] their family and, family issues. Yep, yep.

[00:21:03] georgia: and such. So-

[00:21:05] joe: but yeah, and it’s

[00:21:06] georgia: And we started…

[00:21:07] joe: London? No.

[00:21:08] georgia: but yeah. Well, it’s in… It’s

British. British. I can’t remember the… Camden maybe?

[00:21:13] joe: That sounds right, maybe. Yep. Mm-hmm. Yep There

[00:21:17] georgia: But,

and then we’ve watched the first episode of Dark Matter

[00:21:21] joe: Moon- Mm-hmm

[00:21:22] georgia: of the new season.

[00:21:24] Nick: Nice.

[00:21:25] georgia: Nice. And that was good. It was

[00:21:27] Nick: Worth it or no?

[00:21:27] joe: good. I

[00:21:28] georgia: thought it was really good. I have to be honest, by the end of the first season, I was like, “Oh my gosh, I think this is gonna go into, like, cheesy territory.” I don’t know. Did you watch the first season, Nick?

[00:21:44] Nick: No, I have not

[00:21:46] georgia: But I think they handled, they hand- like transitioned into the second season well. Mm-hmm. And I think it’s gonna be good, yeah.

[00:21:55] joe: they’re off book now, ’cause there was only one book, and the f- first season kind of [00:22:00] followed that book pretty closely. And now the second book, it’s kind of- Right … or the second

[00:22:05] georgia: And that Blake Crouch is very much involved Yeah

which I think is nice

[00:22:10] joe: and helped the continuity of the story and moving forward. Yep, so. But yeah, really good. Book-wise, I finished Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott. So once again, it’s a nonfiction, kind of writing motivation, kind of the spirit of creativity. So that was really good. So it was nice, little bit of run of these books about staying creative and inspired.

But , how about yourself? What are you up to?

[00:22:41] Nick: Oh I started the show Lanterns.

[00:22:44] joe: Mm-hmm. Yeah, Alex

had mentioned that.

[00:22:47] Nick: Yeah, it was pretty good. Three– Or I am all caught up actually on their episodes, ’cause what they have three episodes out as of recording, and yeah, I’ve been enjoying it.

[00:22:59] georgia: And [00:23:00] is that on

Dis- Disney or?

[00:23:02] joe: or…

Wait That

[00:23:03] Nick: is HBO Max

[00:23:05] georgia: Okay

[00:23:05] joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

[00:23:07] Nick: Yeah. And then what I just watched a comedy movie earlier tonight, and that was Vacation Friends.

It actually felt good to see like a good comedy again. It’s been a hot minute since where I was like, “Oh, I’m actually laughing at this.” But yeah

[00:23:26] georgia: And that’s a new film?

[00:23:27] Nick: But I knew it came out in 2021.

[00:23:31] georgia: Okay. Mm-hmm. Okay. So not new, but- No.

[00:23:34] Nick: No. But yeah, it was enjoyable.

And I just started playing the James Bond game the 007 First Light,

[00:23:46] joe: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:46] Nick: and that’s been, I like it. It’s been good so far.

[00:23:49] joe: Cool. Excellent.

[00:23:51] Nick: Yeah, and that’s about all I’ve got

right about now.

[00:23:54] joe: Yeah. Awesome. Awesome

[00:23:56] Nick: you, Georgia? Do you got anything else you guys… [00:24:00] ‘Cause I–

[00:24:01] joe: I think you finished a

[00:24:01] Nick: Georgia go or

[00:24:02] joe: Yeah, we were chaired ’cause we were watching the same show,

[00:24:05] Nick: Oh, okay.

That’s the only way… Who didn’t finish

theirs?

[00:24:08] joe: No, I think we’re all… We kinda tag-teamed it. But Georgia, did you finish a book, didn’t you?

[00:24:14] georgia: yep. No, I think we’re all … We kinda tag-teamed it. But Georgia, did you finish a book then? Yeah. I finished Intrigue

[00:24:16] joe: Mm-hmm. I’m

[00:24:17] georgia: I’m not looking at her name, Silvia Moreno-Garcia, I wanna say, if I’m pronouncing that right.

[00:24:25] joe: looking at it right. Wrote Mexican Gothic-

[00:24:26] georgia: Yes, she wrote the Mexican Gothic. This is not horror related or Gothic related.

It’s more of a noir set in the ’40s in Mexico. So it was good, and I finished that, and now I’m reading The Girls We Send Away- Hm … I think is the title, also by Megan Church, who wrote The Mad Wife

[00:24:53] joe: Oh, very cool. Yep. Mm-hmm

[00:24:55] Nick: Nice Huh?

[00:24:57] joe: Awesome

[00:24:58] Nick: All right.

[00:25:00] Well

[00:25:00] joe: That sounds like a wrapper. So you got me, Joe.

[00:25:07] Nick: Yeah, got

[00:25:07] joe: You got it. We got Nick. Georgia. We got Georgia. Subscribe to the newsletter and see all the cool stuff we’re doing and shows we’ll be at

[00:25:15] Nick: And we went down some holes

[00:25:17] joe: some holes. Stay safe, stay curious. We love y’all

Newsletter and Transcript of Rabbit Hole of Research Episode 82: Data Centers

Are We Really Blowing Up the Planet for AI Slop and Porn?

LISTEN TO EPISODE 82

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Episode 82 Transcript

In Episode 82 of Rabbit Hole of Research, Joe, Nick, Georgia, and Mary welcome back three-time returning guest (previously on Episodes 13 and 39) and “Friend of the Pod”, David Pincus, PhD, cell biologist at the University of Chicago, to the Basement Studio to talk data centers.

We dig into the water costs, why your electric bill is going up, whether space-based cooling is science or Handwavium, what cellular stress can teach us about AI resource allocation, should we use human values or cell behavior to guide AI training, and is there anything good that will come out of these Data Centers. And it wouldn’t be an episode with David if we didn’t go down all the unexpected rabbit holes, we talk lobster farms, “data furnace”, olympic swimming pools, and of course, Extremophiles!

Previous Episodes with David:

Episode 13: Blockbusters and Frozen Landscapes: Climate Change Through the Lens of Pop Culture

Listen now EP 39: Fantastic 4 series: Johnny Storm and Spontaneous Combustion

Georgia and Joe will be hanging out at DragonCon, September 3-7, 2026, if you are in Atlanta come on out and say hello (I’m sure we will be hanging out in the Westin Lobby)! And Joe will be on seven panels.

Georgia and Jim’s Touch of Noir 2027 Wall Calendar —

12 months of all-original art by Jim and Georgia; orders are open now, with mailing expected in September

Check out what the RHR crew is creating:

Joe:

Named by the Guild Literary Complex as one of the 35 Writers to Watch!
Red Line: Chicago Horror Stories Anthology featuring a story by Joe!
Joe’s Sci-fi physiological thriller Novel: Will You Still Love Me If I Become Someone Else?
Joe’s Rom-Com Novella: Tomorrow May Be Too Late

Future Events to Hang with the Crew:

Podcast Cross-Appearances

Joe on GoIndieNow: 21grams with Joe Compton talking about villains.
RHR Crew on This Podcast Will Change Your Life with Ben Tanzer

Events & Conventions:

Joe:

Dragon Con — Atlanta, GA (September 3-7, 2026) – Joe attending as a Professional on seven panels and Georgia will be around also!!
Maud’s READINGS at Printer’s Row Wine on Sep 19th 2-4pm
Art show Ultrastructure: Science is Fun, with Carol Estes at Promise You Art House in Highland IN, October 10th, 10-3pm
Family Day: Seeing the Invisible World to Build a New One; in conjunction with the fall exhibition: teamLab: Everything Exists in Infinite Continuity, at the Smart Museum of Art In Hyde Park, IL, Nov 14th, 11-3pm
Art and Science lecture about Zombies: Dec 10thGeorgia:The inaugural 4th Street Print Fest at Chesterton Art Center on Saturday, October 3, from 1–4 PM

It’s Science for Weirdos

We discussed these questions on the episode and now want to Hear From You (leave a comment):

Would you want a data center in your neighborhood? What would they have to offer to make it worth it?
Should we train AI with human values or cellular values?
What, if anything, would you like to see AI used for? Are you optimistic that we will get there?

Drop your thoughts in the comments. We read them all, and your ideas often shape future episodes.

Leave a comment

Future Episodes

Episode 84: ETGuest: Chris Guzman (@theboxinggloveartist)
Episode 86: Disability in HorrorGuest: Grace Daly (Bram Stoker nominee)
Episode 88: CraziesRecorded at Reed’s Local with Melissa and Luc
Episode 90: Witch PleaseGuest: Bill Halliar (@skeletongue)

Leave a comment

For more stuff (Images, Episode Highlights, events, etc), subscribe to our Substack newsletter!

Show Notes & Fun facts

Stuff crew said they’d put in shownotes

Duck Curve — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_curve
CoreWeave / Hammond, Indiana — Mary mentioned the vote on the Data Center would happen before the release of the episode, and she thought it would pass. The deal fell apart.
- Original approval (June 2025): https://www.gohammond.com/hammond-approves-development-agreement-for-new-data-center/
- Deal expired (July 1, 2026): https://www.gohammond.com/hammond-announces-expiration-of-data-center-development-agreement/
Siddhartha Mukherjee NYT essay David referenced: Can We Make AI Belong (Gift link)
Kanopy — https://www.kanopy.com (free with library card)
Hoopla — https://www.hoopladigital.com (free with library card)

Books:

The Machine Stops — E.M. Forster (1909) short story
The Last Question — Isaac Asimov (1956) short story
The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy — Douglas Adams
So Long and Thanks for All the Fish — Douglas Adams
The Emperor of All Maladies — Siddhartha Mukherjee

Fun Facts to Impress Your Friends With:

The human brain runs on about 20 watts — roughly the equivalent of a dim light bulb, or as David put it, a sandwich. A modern AI data center GPU cluster runs on hundreds of megawatts. That’s the efficiency gap that needs to be closed.
The ISS uses radiator panels the size of a tennis court to cool roughly 70-80 kilowatts of heat load. Dumping just 1 megawatt of waste heat in space requires approximately 1,200 square meters of perfect radiator panels, and a modern GPU cluster generates hundreds of megawatts.
Ireland’s data centers consume about 21% of the national electricity supply— and data center energy demand globally has grown ~12% per year since 2017, and projected to equal Japan’s entire electricity consumption by 2030.
Evaporative cooling loses up to 85% of its water to the atmosphere — it doesn’t go back into the water table. The Tempe Town Lake in Arizona evaporates between 390 million and 650 million gallons of water a year that never return to the Colorado River.
The Jevons Paradox — coined by 1860s steam engine engineer William Stanley Jevons found that making steam engines more efficient actually increased total energy use, and the same pattern may apply to AI efficiency gains today.

Episode Highlights

00:00 Basement Roll Call — Full house in the basement studio, almost, David has a legit excuse, “car ownership is a debated thing in families.”01:57 Meet David Pincus — Three-time returning guest and Friend of the Pod, David Pincus, PhD, UChicago cell biologist and expert in cellular adaptation04:19 What The Cloud Is — Joe delivers the monologue: the cloud isn’t wispy and floating, it’s “a giant space heater that computes.”08:28 Energy Demand Surge — Data centers have grown 12% per year since 2017, Ireland uses 21% of national electricity on data centers, and one proposed AI complex would use as much power as the city of Houston.14:52 AI Hype And Jobs — David calls out the circular investment logic: “If they’re really as good as they say they are, they should prove it by not ruining the Earth.”19:11 Curtailment And Duck Curve — Joe explains how AI could modulate its own power use to absorb wasted renewable energy during off-peak hours, turning a climate problem into a climate solution.22:02 Jevons Paradox Explained — David drops the Jevons Paradox: the 1860s discovery that making steam engines more efficient actually increased total energy use — and AI may be no different.23:41 Space Data Centers Reality — Space is cold, but that doesn’t mean cooling is free; in a vacuum, heat can only leave as radiation, requiring radiator panels the size of a small town.25:01 Does Deleting Data Help — Georgia wonders if mass email deletion would make a dent; David suggests she “Marie Kondo her inbox.”30:41 Water Use Headlines — David breaks down the scary headline number: about 80% of reported data center water use is actually from generating the electricity, not the cooling itself.32:41 Cooling Methods Breakdown — Joe walks through the three approaches: evaporative cooling (water-heavy), air conditioning (energy-heavy), and liquid immersion cooling (the newer, more efficient option).38:57 Local Politics And Promises — Mary reports from the front lines on CoreWeave’s Hammond, Indiana proposal: “They’re promising birthday parties, ice cream, and pony rides.”43:20 Promises Meet Reality — The crew debates whether data center companies will ever actually deliver on community promises, or just take the tax breaks and run.43:58 Turning Heat Into Benefits — Joe’s fun list: Microsoft’s 2011 “data furnace” concept, Deep Green’s server racks under swimming pools, the Norwegian lobster farm, and the Paris Olympic Aquatic Centre heated by Equinix’s data center.46:25 Cooling Hacks Underground — From Cold War bunkers in Stockholm to SubTropolis in Kansas City to a functioning data center at the South Pole, weird locations already solve the cooling problem.47:37 Taxes And Lax Rules — Data centers go where regulations are lax; Mary asks why they can’t just be taxed like everyone else.50:09 Military AI And Nuclear Power — David raises the military’s 50-year data center leases; Joe brings up Three Mile Island — now rebranded the “Crane Clean Energy Center” — being restarted to feed AI.53:46 Petty AI Complaints — New segment: Mary does not need AI to summarize her coloring sheets, and Georgia’s voice-to-text still can’t get it right.55:34 Sci-Fi Warnings And Jokes — Joe highlights The Machine Stops (1909) and The Last Question (1956); David adds The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy — the answer to everything is 42.57:23 Cells, Budgets, And AI Hunger — David draws the key parallel: stressed cells always slow down and budget their resources — AI systems have no such constraint, and the cost is being passed onto us and the planet.01:00:48 Raising AI With Values — David shares Siddhartha Mukherjee’s NYT essay: training AI is like raising a child — you can only hope you sent it into the world with good values.01:07:46 Regulation And Real Benefits — The crew revisits the Industrial Revolution: you can have regulation and growth at the same time, and we already know what happens when you don’t.01:10:33 Freemium Traps And Libraries — The freemium model is coming for AI just like it came for streaming; Mary and Georgia remind everyone that Kanopy and Hoopla are free with your library card.01:14:12 Wrap Up And Hopeful Outlook — David closes on a hopeful note: “If we can let the science lead, that’s going to help humanity”

“Stay curious, stay safe… Love Y’all!”

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Transcript

[00:00:00] joe: Hey, welcome back to the Rabbit Hole of Research down here in the basement studio. We are all crewed up

[00:00:10] Geo: Full house.

[00:00:11] joe: house … full house. Well, almost everyone’s in the basement

[00:00:14] Nick: someone was supposed to be in the- basement studio,

[00:00:16] joe: yeah, but the wife stole the car- … or

[00:00:18] David: car ownership is a debated thing in families

[00:00:23] joe: So yeah, you got me, Joe.

[00:00:24] Nick: got Nick.

[00:00:25] joe: got Nick.

Georgia. We got Georgia.

[00:00:27] Mary: You got Mary.

[00:00:28] joe: got Mary, and we have

[00:00:30] Nick: Three-time returning

[00:00:33] joe: returning. Choo,

[00:00:33] David: Returning guest, longtime listener, third time guest

[00:00:38] Geo: We’ve

[00:00:38] joe: got

[00:00:39] David: David

Pincus Yeah. It’s great to be back

[00:00:42] Geo: And we w- we wanted to know, Is this the first, third time guest?

[00:00:47] Nick: Is he the three-timer club? ‘

[00:00:49] David: always your first third time

[00:00:51] Mary: three- …the

[00:00:53] joe: club, but I don’t know if you’re the first

[00:00:55] Geo: I can’t-

remember

if there’s been anyone else.

[00:00:58] joe: It’s like Bill Hallier’s [00:01:00] been

[00:01:00] Geo: I think he’s only been on twice.

[00:01:03] joe: Oh, I think he’s only been on

[00:01:04] Geo: Anyway, we’ll

[00:01:04] David: I’m

gonna, I’m gonna claim it whether or not it’s

[00:01:07] Geo: We’ll, we’re gonna do-

We’re gonna do some research.

[00:01:10] joe: gonna

do some research. Go down a rabbit hole of research. We’ll do

[00:01:13] David: you say this makes me a friend of the pod?

[00:01:15] Geo: wondering-

[00:01:16] joe: that’s right. That’s right. And, and for those wondering- Sure … that wanna go

back, you were on episode 13, so our first season. So you were here before we were here. Like, you’re

our-

[00:01:27] Nick: was Georgia on that episode?

[00:01:28] Geo: No.

[00:01:29] joe: No.

[00:01:29] Nick: Oh. that was Even before Georgia. jumped back on.

[00:01:32] joe: a day one-er,

[00:01:32] Nick: a day one.

[00:01:34] joe: down

with, the crew.

[00:01:35] Geo: that was a very enjoyable. episode, I remember. And

[00:01:38] joe: then

we had episode 39, Johnny Storm, so that was from the Fantastic Four series.

[00:01:43] Nick: that Last year … that was last Last season

[00:01:45] joe: two, so yeah.

[00:01:46] Nick: Damn, all three seasons. yeah,

[00:01:48] joe: been on, you’ve episode every season,

so yeah.

[00:01:52] David: alive

[00:01:53] joe: yeah. I mean, that’s that’s it, so well, cool. Well, we’re here. Do you wanna give your credentials [00:02:00] just in case someone hasn’t listened to one of the other two

[00:02:02] David: Yeah, of course. Sure, yeah. So I’m a scientist. I’m a researcher at the University of Chicago. I probably shouldn’t say where I’m from, but I spilled the beans

again.

[00:02:11] joe: do that every episode you do that.

So, it’s all right. You can, I think they can Google your name and it’ll

[00:02:16] David: yeah, It’s, true. It’s, It’s, not much of a secret. But I’m a colleague of Joe’s in the and we’re both biologists, cell biologists. I’m an expert in cellular adaptation, how cells cope with stress. Stress to a cell is any change in the environment change in temperature, pH, nutrients. You name it, if it changes, the cell has to adjust to it and roll up their sleeves and adapt. So we study the… You know, cells don’t have brains, but they still have feedback networks and metabolic pathways that ensure that they’re doing the best with what they have at any given moment, and we try to figure out the rules of the game for that.

[00:02:56] joe: Yeah. Well, cool. I think it’s gonna be a fun one. You were [00:03:00] on that first season talking about climate change

[00:03:03] Geo: and And didn’t David coin one of our favorite… Not

coin, but-

he-

[00:03:09] joe: Go ahead. Just please

[00:03:10] Geo: What are you- Extremophiles

[00:03:12] Nick: Oh.

Jesus.

[00:03:15] David: Extreme.

[00:03:17] joe: Yes.

I- I don’t know

[00:03:19] Geo: if I’m attributing- that

[00:03:20] joe: was on a, yeah, that was on a, Johnny Storm episode, I believe it was, extremophiles. But in particular we were talking about this episode and we were talking about you returning this season, and data centers came up. So this episode is about climate change and data centers.

So we’ll get into that. But Mary-

[00:03:37] Mary: Well,

I wanna go a little bit in reverse. So you gave your credentials,

but I don’t think

you gave your name. Oh.

[00:03:43] David: Oh.

David Pincus.

[00:03:44] joe: Yeah.

[00:03:44] Mary: there you go. Okay. All

[00:03:45] joe: right. I think he did say his name.

[00:03:47] Mary: Really?

[00:03:47] Nick: I don’t remember. He said that from the top.

[00:03:48] Mary: Yeah,

No, Okay.

Mary

wasn’t

[00:03:50] joe: Mary wasn’t listening.

[00:03:51] Geo: Oh. That’s

[00:03:51] David: Well, just in case you wanna Google me twice.

[00:03:54] joe: Oh. That’s

right.

[00:03:55] Mary: That’s

[00:03:55] joe: They really make sure

[00:03:56] Mary: I

thought… No, I

[00:03:58] joe: of Chicago.

[00:03:58] Mary: j-

[00:03:59] David: Oh,

[00:03:59] Mary: no, [00:04:00] just wanna make sure that, you know, we know who we’re talking

to. So, yeah.

[00:04:03] David: No name handwavium

[00:04:05] Mary: Yes. Yeah. Okay.

[00:04:07] joe: yes. We gotta have that.

Okay.

Well, cool. Well, I do have a little-

[00:04:11] Nick: was gonna say, w- what’s the list look like?

[00:04:14] joe: Well, I have lists,

but I got my little monologue.

Your

[00:04:15] Nick: Your monologue. I got my monologue

[00:04:16] joe: I got my little monologue. I’m coming back. See if I can do it

when

you hear the cloud, what do you picture? A blue sky with white wispy balls of cotton floating by and morphing into shapes of fantastical animals and familiar faces?

do you imagine data zipping around up there somewhere between your phone and the internet, moving around you like digital air?

Here’s

what the cloud actually is. It’s a warehouse, a very large, loud, and hot warehouse, usually in rural areas by waterways or coming to a neighborhood near you, stuffed floor to ceiling with server racks, calculating away 24/7, consuming natural resources to make the latest viral memes, write emails, [00:05:00] or create a self-aware AI.

And fiction has been warning us about this AI for 70 years, but the real villain isn’t going to say, “I’ll be back,” launch nuclear weapons, or use us as a battery. But it’ll just let us boil ourselves in a pot like frogs, killing us slowly with thermodynamics. You know what? Let me look that up because I think there’s a meme for

[00:05:21] Geo: that

Can you Google it?

[00:05:24] Nick: Don’t

worry, I’ll ask ChatGPT

Yeah.

[00:05:28] joe: It’ll make it for us,

[00:05:29] Geo: Wow.

[00:05:30] joe: Yeah, yep. So that’s it. I mean, but yeah

[00:05:34] David: Cloud’s such a fluffy word, you know?

[00:05:36] joe: It is.

sounds-

[00:05:37] Geo: so

[00:05:38] David: a euphemism? I didn’t think of it at the time. You know, it seemed like a nice, just a real metaphor for, like,

it’s up there

But now it, with the sort of dark side of all of this stuff, cloud’s sort of taken on a Orwellian kind of tone to it to me

[00:05:56] joe: Right.

I mean, yeah, it the word cloud [00:06:00]

is just not,

you- it’s not here in front of us, right? It’s something that you cannot obtain or see, and it’s all about scaling, right? So you’re scaling something up, and so how do you scale is just having more. And usually when you have more, you want to put it somewhere that’s not in your face, right?

It’s that’s the idea of it. And it’s really just server racks. Just a place, a physical location

[00:06:23] Nick: Mm-hmm That you don’t own

[00:06:24] joe: you don’t own … yeah, that you don’t own, that you don’t see. well,

[00:06:27] David: of sight, out of mind.

[00:06:28] joe: might see it if, depending where you live. But

[00:06:31] David: Increasingly

[00:06:32] joe: so. Yeah. Just a giant space heater that computes.

[00:06:35] Geo: I think of it like, like when we were talking about electricity and you just Turn the light switch on- you don’t think about

well, what,

you know, what-

went on to turn the light

on It’s the

same kind of- Yeah, and

[00:06:47] joe: what powers that? Is it coal? Is it you know, nuclear? Is it solar? Is it wind? Is it hydro? You turn the lights on and you expect,, you expect light.

Like, you don’t… You flick the switch or you plug your plug in, you, you expect it to work, and you [00:07:00] don’t think about the back end. Same thing with, electric cars. You still have to think about if you plug in and it’s your electricity’s from a coal-fired plant, is it– are you probably coming out a little bit better?

Yeah, but you’ve kinda just displaced your thinking about that,

so. You have to change them. Right. That’s right.

[00:07:15] Nick: Like, it’s not a full step ahead. you’re just moving a different lane

[00:07:19] joe: yeah. You’re

[00:07:20] David: I do think that pretty much everybody thinks electricity is good though,

and Has improved the quality of lives, right? And so- the sheer fact of having to gen- you know, use fossil fuels, have environmental impact, of course, that’s not ideal, but at least with the trade-off of generating electricity and having the lights on at night and you know, being able to cook food over, you know, places.

Anyway, there’s a whole bunch of benefits that are obvious for electricity, and I think everyone

[00:07:55] Geo: Correct.

Correct

[00:07:56] David: different

with data centers is every… To a [00:08:00] first approximation, every one of those servers is running porn, right? Like, or like

that

[00:08:06] joe: probably right. That’s

[00:08:07] Geo: Bored.

[00:08:08] David: like, and

like,

or people asking about their own like health or

mental health issues and that’s like sad, but in- interesting.

But anyway, like

it’s AI,

[00:08:18] joe: I

th- yeah, and

[00:08:19] David: and I just don’t think people can agree universally that it’s a good

improvement over

everyone’s

[00:08:26] Nick: of life isn’t being lifted.

[00:08:28] joe: I wanna say also, I know AI is the one of the drivers now of the extra increase, but probably starting, 10 years ago or so, data centers started to ramp up just the devices that we use to stream everything. You guys listen to this podcast.

That is streaming out of a cloud from a data center somewhere. So

[00:08:50] Nick: Wait, are you saying that we’re part of the problem?

[00:08:52] joe: You’re part of the problem Yes, Nick, you

are- He’s the worst … you are

part of the problem,

[00:08:55] Geo: of the problem, Especially you, Nick. No.

[00:08:57] joe: You’re 100%.

[00:08:57] Mary: 100%.

[00:08:59] Nick: sin.

[00:08:59] joe: Yeah, but I [00:09:00] mean, it’s just kind of …data

centers started to ramp up and be built before even AI.

So now we have this onslaught. Yeah, right, and porn and movie

[00:09:09] Geo: streaming- Dancing cat videos

[00:09:11] joe: was part of it. But AI now

[00:09:13] Geo: But AI now has

[00:09:13] joe: accelerated that, where we were seeing some growth, you know, 5% a year maybe, and now we’re starting to escalate that to 10%, you know, growth of energy need consumption. And that’s what we’re now dealing

[00:09:28] Geo: And so because it really feels very recent.

that you hear about every

single town-

[00:09:35] joe: Yeah,

[00:09:36] Geo: is struggling with,

you know- whether they’re gonna put up a data center. It’s like, how did this happen just in the last-

[00:09:44] Nick: Well, what, we had recently a town meeting. Yeah. And it’s hitting closer to home for everyone.

And- Right.

[00:09:51] Geo: So I just think, wow, I mean, it really- is that because… And I don’t

wanna

like just depressing

and

about [00:10:00] politics, but is it because of…

What is it? It’s really because of the demand

with

[00:10:06] joe: wanna, like, just depressing and about politics, but is it because of… I mean, what, what is it? It’s really because of the demand with- On it, yeah. I mean, AI is, like I said, part of it, and we’ve seen an acceleration of growth. But one of the things is that we’re seeing since 2017 we’ve been having about a 12% growth per year for data center energy.

And I think it’s just hitting the news now because if you keep growing, right, no one’s put a cap on it. That’s the problem. It’s like, oh, we’re gonna double by in five years. , hopefully we can hold that line because it could double again in 10 years. And so that’s the issue. As the consumption of, media, of AI, of using that, and,, that you have to build new data centers out.

But there’s a lot of use. I mean, it was already building, so it’s not like last year or a couple years ago when ChatGPT really hit it. That’s when… And the memes and things like that, it was like, “Oh, we need new data centers.” Like I said, probably, , 2015, ’16, ’17, there was a growth already starting to happen, and people [00:11:00] were preparing for that and saying, “How do we get ahead of this?

How do we do something?” So there are people thinking about it, and it… But it’s hit the news now because now it’s coming to a town near you. That’s what’s

changing-

[00:11:11] Geo: town near you.

[00:11:12] joe: right. You’re just hearing it about it more. And, politics have, is very partisan, and so it’s a flashpoint and you can use it,

um-

[00:11:21] Nick: I don’t believe-

that the politicians understand.

it.

[00:11:24] joe: mm-hmm.

[00:11:25] Nick: Like, it’s new technology still to them.

[00:11:27] Geo: Yeah.

[00:11:28] Nick: And they still don’t understand half

The technology that is common in every household nowadays

[00:11:34] joe: And doing just a little bit of research on this, the, one of the extreme cases is like Ireland. Data centers use about 21% of the national, electrical

generation 21% is

[00:11:46] Mary: that’s huge 21%.

[00:11:47] David: Virginia, I know in the US, Virginia has a

huge fraction of its-

total power going to data centers, maybe one in,

one in four or something.

[00:11:56] joe: So

[00:11:56] Nick: yeah, and They also don’t tell you the full amount that they- [00:12:00] are actually gonna use. They say- a lowball number and then- exceed those numbers significantly. Yeah. Yeah,

[00:12:08] joe: I think, it’s gonna be, by 2030 we’ll be using, like, the, what the country of Japan uses, worldwide.

I mean, , we’ll be equaling, that, that level you know, globally as we start to scale up so,

[00:12:23] David: And

[00:12:23] joe: but yeah,

[00:12:23] David: in

terms of

[00:12:24] joe: is… Go ahead

[00:12:25] Geo: raw energy is

[00:12:28] David: in– I think it’s something like you know, this year there are these… The AI companies are all… There’s this– We can probably talk about this a little bit more, but there’s this circular investment

[00:12:41] joe: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:41] David: thing where the NVIDIA chip company that

makes the chips is investing in the AI companies that buy the chips to buy the chips and build the data centers. And then meanwhile, these IPOs they’re raising are gonna raise a bunch of money to build more of these data [00:13:00] centers, and it’s just, you know, it’s gonna be like half a trillion dollars potentially spent in, per year in the next few years just on, on building. And it’s just a Ponzi scheme. I don’t

know what the name is, but it just seems like economically false.

Like, like it’s

built on some kind of, I, I don’t under- it’s scary. But like, one of these super complexes that they’re talking about building would use as much power per year as the city of Houston you know? It’s

like enormous amounts of energy that they’re saying they’re gonna use in these things.

Anyway, sorry

[00:13:41] joe: and yeah, and the problem is that, you know, as you forecast this out, you know, it’s not a new problem. I mean, you can grow the power grid to compensate. The problem is that we’re lagging behind there, so these communities are suffering not because it’s, “Oh, wow, you know, we gotta add… They’re gonna consume this much [00:14:00] power.”

You know, there’s been other times in our history where you had to have c- power consumption, like you’re building ships and things like that, and you got your blast furnaces. That’s a consumption of power. It’s different. But w- we’ve ramped up, and now over the last decades, we’ve ramped down. We’re not doing heavy industrial here in the States, and so our power grid now is at a, some low baseline level.

And now the thing is ramp it up. Let’s go. And so you plug these data centers in now that have great demand with now public demand, and that’s where you’re starting to see the strain out on it.

[00:14:33] Geo: Places have failed to keep up their in- Right

infrastructure.

Infrastructure, yeah. Mm-hmm. yep. And so- Right … it’s-

already failing, and then you’re adding all this other-

[00:14:42] Mary: adding all this other.

[00:14:42] joe: Right.

Yep. And so that’s where the strain then comes in, and communities are like, “Whoa, hold on. We’re having brownouts and blackouts,” and

[00:14:48] David: And people pay more in their electricity bills.

[00:14:51] Geo: A lot more.

[00:14:52] joe: And I wanted to circle around, too, to the point you were talking about, David, about the AI and the hype and the super hype, because some [00:15:00] of it, that is what it is.

Like, there’s our trillion, billionaire, now one’s a trillionaire, hyping up this technology, and consumers are consuming it. But at some point in time, and we’re starting to see this with, ChatGPT, Claude, it’s like, oh, I’m running out of, prompts that I can put in.

They’re hitting limits of that. And so that’s because this costs money, and so at some point in time, they’re gonna go… These are like the tasters. Everyone’s getting a little taste and getting hooked. And then after you’re hooked, then they’re gonna go, “Oh, you know what? Oh, my bad.

That’s gonna cost you 20 bucks. Oh, my bad. If you wanna keep this prompting and impress your friends with your

memes and stuff,” you It’s gonna be… It- it’s kind of on the back end, they’re gonna have to pay for it. Right now, they’re not paying for it. And the investors,

at some point,

the stockholders are gonna go the share- the board is gonna go, “We need to make some money on this, so you know what?

Let’s let’s crank this up.”

[00:15:54] Nick: Aren’t they already

losing money?

[00:15:56] joe: they

already making money? Well, tons of money. Yeah.

It’s, you know, it’s not-

[00:15:59] Mary: With the [00:16:00] promise

that

later-

there’s,

The jewels

Will

rain down. they’re,

[00:16:04] Geo: they’re-

they’re- And then, yeah, and then, oh, this will bring so many jobs.

It’s not gonna bring so many jobs. It’s bringing, like, a couple people to check on the machines. I don’t understand. I don’t understand. that. Like, how

[00:16:16] Mary: like, how many jobs are there in a AI data center after the initial construction?

[00:16:23] Nick: I

wouldn’t say too

[00:16:24] Mary: Are, are- yeah.

mean-

[00:16:26] Nick: have a security

[00:16:27] Mary: I was

[00:16:27] joe: was

actually- That’s right.

[00:16:28] Mary: Like, I, I actually don’t know. I

d- I

[00:16:30] Nick: mean, Well- It’s

[00:16:31] Mary: It’s like,

[00:16:31] Geo: Homer

Simpson sitting there watching

[00:16:33] joe: I’m sure there’s there’s gonna be folks

who need to repair things. I’m sure there’s gonna be folks who need to go in and maintenance things.

But it- But

[00:16:40] Nick: not gonna

be an

[00:16:41] Geo: it off and back on aga-

[00:16:43] Nick: Showing up, walking around, making sure- that all the lights are flickering correctly.

[00:16:47] joe: Right.

[00:16:47] Nick: And then moving on …

[00:16:49] joe: If they can’t get a machine to do that, like a robot, that’s like a…

[00:16:52] David: here’s the thing

that, it like if th- there’s some like inherent bullshit in, sorry for the [00:17:00]

PG-13

[00:17:01] Nick: good. that’s still part of it

[00:17:02] Geo: No,

[00:17:02] Mary: You, you said that correctly.

Okay. Yeah.

[00:17:07] David: You didn’t mishear me.

Because if they’re claiming the, if the entrepreneurs, the Sam Altmans, the Elon Musks Daria Aamodei if the, if they’re claiming they’re gonna really make super intelligent models, couldn’t those models make themselves work more efficiently so they

wouldn’t need these freaking data centers? Like, so like,

if they’re really as good as they say they are, they should prove it by not ruining the Earth.

[00:17:39] joe: You know, these large language models and how they’re predict and their nodes, the billions of predictive choices, that’s what takes the computing power that they need. And so can they make themselves more efficient? , that means that they would have to then build their own chipsets [00:18:00] and,

[00:18:00] David: the AIs design their own

chips, right? And so you have a kind of like hardware recursive

[00:18:05] joe: We’ve seen that movie. We’ve seen that movie, and

[00:18:08] David: that movie.

[00:18:09] joe: It doesn’t turn out well for humans.

[00:18:11] Nick: Turning out good

for us

[00:18:12] Mary: let

[00:18:13] David: Yeah, well,

I just think, but so therefore I think the other explanation is their models aren’t that good.

They’re never going to

solve the universe and therefore

be able to make themselves work efficiently.

[00:18:30] joe: or

you have the other end that potentially they need X amount of energy to run, and that’s just their need, right? They’re not gonna be as efficient as the human mind, right? So the human brain,

[00:18:41] David: there, that’s a great, that’s exactly where I wanted to go.

[00:18:44] joe: it runs on, like, what, 20 watts? I mean, that’s nothing.

That is, a dim light bulb, right?

[00:18:48] David: That’s a

sandwich

[00:18:49] Nick: why did you look at me when you said that? Are you calling me a dim

[00:18:52] joe: at,

looking across

the room

here.

I was looking for confirmation, like, yo, yeah, that’s it. I- it’s been a while since I’ve… Now with LEDs, like, [00:19:00] 20 watts is, like, when I was growing up, that’s, like, 100 watts, so.

But yeah, no, you have this power need, and so for training, things like that, it’s just, it’s not efficient. And I don’t, I don’t- You’re right. I don’t know if it’ll get there. But the other… What you can do, and I was reading a little about this curtailment. Have you heard of that? Where the idea is that

with-

Green power,

solar wind farms, at times they generate more power than can be used, consumed.

Mm-hmm.

[00:19:31] Geo: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:31] joe: And so, and then you get this like a duck curve. It’s kind- it’s called a duck curve, and it’s cool. So you have these things where they generate all this power, and so that’s during the daytime. Let’s say during the day, sun’s out, solar farm, it is just banking energy. But the problem is everyone’s at work, or the majority of people are at work not doing anything.

Or, you know, they’re not d- they’re at home using their devices, turning the lights on. And then at 5:00 PM or so they get home. Now the sun’s kinda [00:20:00] going down. The power generation is now going down, and then you get a spike in electrical use and you need to actually now use more. But now you’re at a low point of capacity, right?

‘Cause now you’re not generating as much and banking as much as you were earlier in the day. And so one of the things that’s interesting and one of the ideas that are pitched and AI is starting maybe helping to feed itself, is to figure those trends out

and then

modulate its power usage in relation to this duck curve so that when energy is

plentiful

and its consumer use is low, that it will now, that’s when all the jobs should come in and it will, go and, you have full bore data center processing.

And then when people need power- … you then down regulate, and you then modulate and AI can figure that out. It can start to [00:21:00] find the trends, it can start to self-regulate. It can begin to get to this, , negative power consumption if you want to say.

It’ll be totally a green thing. So yeah, it was a really interesting idea and folks are starting to try

to apply that to these data centers in these areas where you have green technology kind of- … banking up this energy and then trying to really efficiently use it. And that’s just lost anyway, right?

So it’s even if a data center’s not there, this is just lost

[00:21:29] Nick: W- it doesn’t get stored anywhere?

[00:21:31] joe: Can it get stored anywhere? Only so much can get stored, right? That’s , that’s a different problem, right? That’s battery technology. Batteries aren’t efficient, so they don’t convert 100%. So i- there’s a lot of things going on there because then you have more efficient batteries, then you can store more and you can have AI modulating.

So you can have AI figuring out these trend lines and, just kind of throwing it the opposite there that we don’t– it doesn’t have to build itself better. It can manage the resources better that are provided to it

[00:21:58] David: But there’s also this other [00:22:00] paradox that it, you know, it, what is it? The Jevons paradox. Do you know this guy, Stanley, William Stanley Jevons? So this

is a steam engine thermodynamics guy in the 1860s, and

he basic-

[00:22:15] joe: then? That guy was a

[00:22:16] David: No, but he was Making steam eng- He was trying, he was making steam engines more efficient. right?

And what he found was that the more efficient steam engines, rather than decreasing total usage of energy,

increased total usage of energy, ’cause now more people

wanted to use steam engines for more things. So there’s this para- this efficiency paradox that

Every

little

bit of

efficiency you

gain in, you actually offset it a little more by more people- using it. And I think that’s clearly in AI, the more powerful they get and the more useful they are, the more people will wanna use them. So the more

efficient even they Get that

may be [00:23:00] more than offset by then

How many people- actually use them.

[00:23:02] Mary: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:03] Nick: yeah.

[00:23:03] joe: I think that’s a really… That is a good point, and then you have that. But that’s also the problem then becomes you gate that with money or some resource, and then that just the technology becomes only affordable for people at the top end, right? So I, I think that’s the crux of it all, that you have this more…

Right? ‘Cause it’s the more consumers you have, the better, but at some point you’re gonna have to… Or you figure out, or you solve these issues some other way,, as curtailment or build data centers in space. Which is,

[00:23:37] Geo: On the cl-

on the clouds really.

[00:23:40] joe: The real clouds, yeah.

And there’s,

[00:23:41] Geo: Which

[00:23:41] joe: It’s, that’s a funny thing, ’cause that gets thrown out there a lot and it’s a mis- it’s somewhat a misunderstanding ’cause it’s like, oh, space is, really cold,

and

you need to keep the data centers cold, cool, so you put it out in space then. But that’s not because you’re in a vacuum, [00:24:00] you don’t have. Heat transference,

and heat is moved from one media through another. So there’s no air or water or anything, so how do you move heat?

And so

essentially what you do is radiant heat. So you would just, you build, big panels that would then dissipate the heat almost passively through.

And so the bigger your data center is the larger the panels are. So it’s like radiant heat, like so from a radiator, it’s just radiating heat out, so you gotta have this larger panel. So it’s really it can work, but it’s not like, oh,

[00:24:35] Nick: it’s, not as easy of effects as people think

right.

[00:24:38] joe: just not

like, “

Let’s put it in space. Like, it’s gonna be great. Like, it’s gonna be kind of one of these things.” And the cost of launching rockets has come down through the reusable rockets, so you can get materials up into space. You can have things like that. I know-

[00:24:51] David: say What you will about SpaceX, but that is really cool.

I mean,

[00:24:56] joe: Yes

[00:24:57] David: ugh. Anyway, that’s really cool

[00:24:59] joe: [00:25:00] Yeah

[00:25:00] Geo: So I have this kind of a

stupid

question, but I have like so many emails in my Gmail that like, It’s ridiculous. I don’t even wanna say

how many.

[00:25:11] David: You’ve never deleted an email

[00:25:12] Geo: I m- I try,

[00:25:14] Nick: What do you

mean- Wait, What you try?

[00:25:16] Geo: I try.

[00:25:16] joe: mean-

[00:25:16] David: spam from TJ Maxx

[00:25:18] Geo: I mean-

[00:25:19] joe: Exactly. It’s

[00:25:21] Geo: That’s right. And I’m wondering, like, is All these people similar to myself have all this data that’s just hanging around.

C- And even if you delete it, where the hell does it go? And then, so is that like, that’s pretty much the w- way it is, right? We’re

holding this data that

[00:25:40] Nick: it’s

[00:25:40] Geo: garbage more or less.

[00:25:41] joe: But those emails are- Right … relatively small

and they probably

[00:25:46] Geo: photos, right? Photos. You’re calling the photos

[00:25:48] Nick: calling your photos. garbage?

[00:25:50] Geo: No, but I’m just

saying- Photos are garbage … is it a matter of,

like, if everybody, like,

kinda

got

rid of a bunch of stuff, would that help?

[00:25:57] joe: kinda got rid of a bunch of stuff, would that [00:26:00] help?

[00:26:00] Geo: I don’t know. I,

[00:26:01] joe: Y- yeah, no, you’re right. I mean, it’s, to go back you would have to, a lot of people delete a lot of stuff, but mean maybe. Yeah.

Like, What’s people holding? I don’t know, videos versus photos, and do you limit people? But all that’s also gated by

[00:26:14] Nick: But that’s also like- the billionaire saying- “Hey, if you guys do this- that’ll help the environment.” Well, they’re holding- so much more. Yeah.

[00:26:22] joe: And

It’s gated

by money also, right? So if you want a terabyte of cloud service, that costs you this much money. If you want two… So there’s some of that built in already that, you know, it becomes this have

and have

[00:26:34] Nick: But you can go ahead and buy that- terabyte to put for your photos and videos.

[00:26:41] joe: Like

[00:26:41] Nick: nothing- is stopping you from doing that and owning it yourself.

[00:26:46] Geo: I’m

not

sure if I understand what you’re

[00:26:48] Nick: You can get a terabyte hard

[00:26:50] Geo: I don’t want a terabyte

[00:26:51] Nick: don’t want a terabyte

[00:26:51] Geo: drive. and

[00:26:51] Nick: hold everything that you have.

[00:26:53] Geo: I just wanna purge. I wanna get rid of it.

[00:26:56] Nick: Sure. You know? Go for it. No one’s stopping you. [00:27:00] N-

[00:27:00] David: Marie Kondo your emails.

Does

[00:27:02] joe: that’s right. Yeah,

that’s

[00:27:03] Nick: was talking about her photos, not her emails- you know.

[00:27:07] joe: I think the emails are pretty low. I mean, you probably can fit all

those on a floppy disk. Yeah I don’t think that’s the-

On a floppy

disk That’s not the driver. If people don’t know what that is, a three and a half it’s 1.3 megabytes, I think it was.

It’s like, I don’t know, like what’s the solution?

[00:27:19] Geo: think.

But it’s like, I don’t know, like what’s the solution? I don’t-

[00:27:23] Nick: I just gave you a solution.

[00:27:25] Geo: Yeah.

[00:27:26] Nick: Just get- I don’t- Own your own

terabyte. No, what I mean

[00:27:27] Geo: what I mean is it feels like it’s this thing that we’re just gonna keep building and it’ll never be enough.

[00:27:34] joe: that’s

[00:27:34] David: collective digital detritus.

[00:27:37] Geo: And nobody’s

really willing to go back to

not- That’s right …

doing computers and, I mean, even though- that- I think that sounds really nice.

but. Yeah,

[00:27:45] joe: right.

I don’t think… W- like I said, we were already on this trajectory, so I don’t… It’s probably not, the genie’s not going back into the bottle. And so really it’s about how do you…

[00:27:56] Geo: this trajectory, so I don’t… It’s probably not, the genie’s not going back into the bottle. And so really it’s about how do you

[00:27:58] joe: What is, what are the safeguards then put [00:28:00] in? You know, we were making all these climate change goals and moving forward and, I forget what it was.

We need a reduction by 2035 and, all these kind of things. But now it’s more can we hold that line? Like, we were making progress

[00:28:15] Geo: and and That, really does go back to politics

and, money. you know?

[00:28:19] joe: Right.

And I was

gonna go back, I had it in my notes, I was, when I looked, but the space thing and the International Space Station as a reference point, ’cause they use, they, they actually control their heat loads through radiant

cooling.

And so they have radiator panels the size of a tennis court to cool roughly 70, 80 kilowatts of heat load. And so that’s a pretty small fraction of what

a, a, an AI compute cluster would generate,

[00:28:46] Geo: can you give a comparison? Like, what’s that? Like- So, Is that a fraction of it? Like- I

[00:28:51] joe: I mean,

so something here was, like, the dumping. It was, like, one megawatt of waste would require approximately 1,200 square meters of [00:29:00] perfect radiator panels to go. And a modern GPU cluster generates hundreds of megawatts.

So that’s just kind of, the way to think about it. So that, that you would… This, you would need very large radiant panels. You also would have to face the cold side, so you gotta face away from the sun. So that’s the other thing you gotta do, because if you’re facing the sun, then you’re gonna heat up and you’re not gonna do, it’s not gonna be good.

So you gotta, actually gotta position your panels to face the dark side of space so that they’re actually on there. So yeah, it could be kind of cool, and it sounds cool. One of the things I read and I was looking at is lava tubes on the Moon

might be

a place to put your data center.

We had the episode with Ernie Bell on talking about the lava tubes on the Moon and Mars, and that would be a place where you can, potentially put them in this lava tube. You still have the radiation problem, the cooling only as in orbit, but you don’t have the continuous sun, so you can actually have [00:30:00] both sides.

You can have radiant, you can have radiant panels all over the place and not have to worry about that. So, but yeah,

so.

[00:30:06] Mary: But that gets back to your paradox then

If It becomes it becomes easier and easier to do.

it’s like, we just need to have

more moons. But I

wanted to ask

you, I kn- I wanted to ask you a question too about AI data centers,

about,

about water.

We’ve been talking about electricity.

And could you

talk to why

are AI data, what happens to the water in AI data centers? Is it… I have questions maybe maybe like- go ahead and start

and I might chime in, but I, yeah, could you talk about that a little bit?

[00:30:41] David: So definitely water is a scary headline number, right? You hear this huge amounts of water, and part of that… So there’s good news and bad news in the head- that number. Part of it is, as I understand, is that they take into account all

The water that’s [00:31:00] also used to generate the energy in the first place. it- for the data centers, right?

So th- approximately like 75 to 80, 85% of, the total water when people say this much water is being used for data centers is really just making the electricity, whether we used it

For a data center or not. So- really, I think the– there still is a ton, so it’s still… But it’s like 20% of the headline number,

which is still a

Huge amount. So it’s like 20 billion gallons of

water a year,

which sounds like an enormous amount, but it’s not 100 billion gallons a year, which

is what sort of the number that I– you can find out there So,

you know,

Basically the way

a way to think about it is right now

it’s About 0.3% of

all the

water in the public supply that

we have is going to cool data centers.

So 0.3% is not zero. It’s definitely- a lot of water, but it’s not even [00:32:00] 1% of all of our water. So it… T- 20 billion gallons is a ton of water. It’s

20 billion gallons, but it’s only 0.3%. So it… Relative to other general uses like general energy, overall energy generation, that uses way more water than the specific use of data centers.

That’s, that, that would be the way I would talk about it.

Joe, what do you think?

[00:32:24] Mary: Yeah.

And well,

I had another question, too, about that. So when the water is being used, can it be reused?

I that’s one of the questions-

I had. Is the water polluted after it’s been run through an AI data

center?

[00:32:38] joe: So I was gonna touch on that unless you…

[00:32:40] David: yeah.

go ahead, Joe

[00:32:41] Geo: ahead.

[00:32:41] joe: So I was gonna say, ’cause if there’s just, we talked about space cooling, and then we skipped over water, the way we actually do it, and there’s three

kind of approaches to that. In most of the data centers, what they do is evaporative cooling. So if you live down in Arizona, the Southwest essentially you use water, and then you [00:33:00] evaporate it to cool the surrounding air.

And so swamp coolers in Arizona, what they would call it, and I think there’s other names for other places. And so a lot of them that’s the technology they use. And so the water you’re using, you don’t really recapture it. It is lost to the environment, but also now you’re breaking, people studied the water cycle and how it flows.

And so now you’re using water in a different way, and it doesn’t… Any environment, it’s just loss. And so that’s really water heavy and you- but you use less energy in your cooling cycle. The other way, the other ways people are talking is air cooling, so like an air conditioner.

you can do that, but that takes more energy, ’cause now you got the energy for the data center the servers, and then you need energy for the air conditioners. And so then that gets to the point David was saying, how now that water use is on the electric generation side of it. And so when you add that in, you really are- You know, you’re right.

You get an … It doesn’t incl- You can use it for something else, but you’re not. You’re using it for an

[00:33:59] David: [00:34:00] not. Yeah, So, it, it d- yeah

[00:34:01] joe: right. And then the other, the third way and newer that people are talking about is actually liquid immersion cooling, so you would actually submerge the servers into water, which then could be, reused, and it’s not

So it’s not a pollution. It’s not being polluted. This isn’t the idea. It’s just water loss, so that water is taken out of the water table and then moved along. So that’s a problem. And the same thing if you put a artificial lake in, Tempe. So when they put the artificial lake in there it was an artificial lake.

[00:34:32] Nick: in where.

[00:34:32] Geo: Tempe. In a desert.

[00:34:33] joe: Arizona. Oh. And so you’re evaporating something like a million gallons of water, or a couple, few million gallons of water a year. That’s, it was just, you know, it’s not going back into the Colorado River and then, and flowing back into this artificial lake.

[00:34:46] Mary: just- lost.

[00:34:46] Nick: lost.

[00:34:46] Geo: Right.

[00:34:47] joe: So you’ve taken water from, , a source that was being replenished by snow cap melt and into the Colorado River, and then you’re filling a lake that then gets evaporated and it’s just lost. So that’s kinda the problem there. So [00:35:00] we think of these three kind of cooling approaches that, that was it.

And I was gonna throw … I also looked at these numbers and, a little bit. It was something in U- United States, we use something like 322 billion gallons of water per day, so that’s you know, it’s a lot of water. But the three biggest categories, and

I I was curious,

It’s irrigation, about 118 billion gallons a day.

Thermal electric power, 133, and then public supply is about 39 billion gallons a day. And that was a little bit ago, so these numbers, you know, this was- So

[00:35:31] Nick: for irrigation- … a couple years ago …is that for, like, home irrigation too, or is that just-

[00:35:36] Geo: Agricultural … agricultural? Agricultural. Yes. Yep, yep. So

[00:35:38] joe: farming.

[00:35:39] Nick: Okay. Not people just watering their grass for eight hours a day.

[00:35:43] joe: I think that goes into the public supply, ’cause that’s probably how they’re me- m- your meter is measuring that versus, farm use, so-

[00:35:49] Geo: I lived in Arizona- we did have irrigation, and then it would, like, they, it would flood our yard, like, every whatever… Do [00:36:00] you, did you ever

experience irrigation?

in- I did, yeah. No, Isn’t that crazy … Yep, yeah. Also, it would just-

I don’t know. I don’t know. Do they still do that They probably- I don’t know. There was,

[00:36:08] joe: know. There was, well, there was a lot of water restrictions put on when I was leaving, so this

[00:36:12] Geo: It’s Just weird … Yeah …2001 when

[00:36:14] joe: left, but they were starting to restrict, like, you only can water certain days.

[00:36:17] Mary: Unless you’re a data center, and in that case you’re like, “Hey,

[00:36:21] joe: And it’s

[00:36:21] Mary: it’s fine.”

[00:36:21] joe: Always find it funny when they put super water intensive things in, the desert. You don’t have a lot of water.

[00:36:29] David: or golf courses,

[00:36:30] joe: golf

courses,

[00:36:31] Geo: Yeah. number one

[00:36:32] Nick: number one. It’s

[00:36:32] joe: so

yeah, data center fits perfectly. Like, you know, why do people need to drink water?

[00:36:36] Mary: Well, I had ano- I had another question too about the water, and and so I’ve heard that data centers need to, need a ton of water, but they at the same time need they operate best in, in dry environments.

……is that a- Mm-hmm. Am I right on that?

S- okay. [00:37:00] So-

so they, so

[00:37:01] Nick: Yeah

[00:37:02] Geo: Is that because of the equipment?

[00:37:04] Nick: because-

[00:37:05] David: you don’t want the Chips getting wet.

[00:37:07] joe: right.

[00:37:07] Mary: That’s

[00:37:07] Nick: Yeah.

And You want a nice solid temperature- for the computer components.

[00:37:12] Mary: So-

[00:37:13] David: want to use the water to carry the heat away and then evaporate the water. Like s- you know, kind of like sweat

in, in a sense, right? We use water to get the heat out of our bodies by sweating it off and having it evaporate. It’s effectively what we’re the, having the data centers do, but just at a massive scale

[00:37:31] Mary: I

see

So they operate best in like the desert

that

doesn’t have a lot of water. And, but, you know, then, and then we have to pump in the water from somewhere, right, to cool these things down. What a mess.

[00:37:47] Geo: The whole thing just is-

Yeah

ridiculous.

[00:37:51] joe: then- you have the- Okay

point also that, a lot of these I mentioned they’re in rural areas, but there’s also now people are like, “Oh, we should [00:38:00] really put ’em in, densely populated areas.”

[00:38:03] Mary: Not- It’s

not densely populated, but Hammond,

you know-

[00:38:05] joe: Well, I mean, you’re- They’ve never had a bad

[00:38:07] Mary: id- There’s never

been a bad idea

yet- …

that they haven’t gone, “Hey, hold my beer.”

You know?

[00:38:12] joe: I mean, you’re close enough to… You got two things there. You’re close to a large densely populated- Mm-hmm … major metropolis in Chicago, and you have the largest source of fresh water on Earth in

[00:38:26] Mary: lake-

[00:38:26] Nick: great

[00:38:27] joe: lake- Yeah

And

associated watershed reservoir.

[00:38:30] Mary: Yeah. Hammond can’t wait to piss that all

[00:38:32] joe: that is,

that’s, those are two big, Yeah.

[00:38:34] Geo: Yeah.

They’re like-

[00:38:36] joe: Two big

[00:38:36] Geo: But maybe they’ll get the Bears too. yeah.

[00:38:39] joe: Maybe we’ll, maybe improve our power grid. I mean, you know, do something

[00:38:42] Nick: useful, you know?

Ooh, what if The Bear stadium is on top of the data center. yeah. Whoa.

[00:38:47] Mary: Yeah. It ju- But

yeah,

[00:38:49] Nick: I mean-

[00:38:49] joe: I- No.

[00:38:50] David: blown

[00:38:51] joe: But I’ll

[00:38:51] Mary: yeah,

that,

that’s the other thing, too. I th- I think that I mean,

I…

feels like a bubble to me, you know? Like

all …of [00:39:00] this massive

build out, and we just can’t build things fast enough.

And

right now in Hammond, they’re going, I, they’re going back and forth. There’s this company called CoreWeave. I I have, I’ve,

[00:39:14] Geo: I have, I’ve,

[00:39:15] Mary: I would imagine, have you heard of them?

Oh, okay. And so, and they’re promising Hammond like birthday parties and ice cream and pony rides. If you could just only, you know, if we can just come into your

town

and-

[00:39:29] Nick: do Mary?

[00:39:30] Mary: They want… Their CoreWeave is an is an AI data center- place, and they want to they have the mayor’s attention because they’ve floated some

[00:39:40] Geo: like

[00:39:41] Mary: bonus or something. Like they’re gonna, like the city’s gonna get $25 million from this company,

and

I’m like, “

Says who?” You know, I mean,

I don’t know.

Do these AI data centers just

like promise they gonna get a tax break

Oh, I’m,

oh, I’m sure. I’m sure they’re not gonna pay any [00:40:00] taxes forever, you know? But

[00:40:03] joe: I

[00:40:03] Mary: don’t under- you know, like, you know, I guess do these centers come in and promise the moon to the cities- and then when it comes time to pay up, they go, “Oh, you know what?

You know, we, you know, we’re running so hot right now. We’re making a bunch

of promises.”

But when it comes time to…

You know,

Is that,

Have you- Run across that in, in any of your, in any of your research?

[00:40:25] David: I don’t know enough about the kind of community company kind of interface. I mean, it reminds me, the way you describe it, of what I heard about when the fracking was going on and the

f- the, and the companies would, go town to town if they found that there was a good place to do fracking in, in, rural Pennsylvania, and sell the towns on these too good to be true things and come in, and then there’d be reports of earthquakes and, nobody o- i- it

was all… It just smells like a deal with the devil kind of,

you know, for lack of a [00:41:00] non parochial metaphor. But

[00:41:02] joe: Yeah.

[00:41:03] David: yeah.

Anyway

[00:41:04] joe: I think that’s one of the problems with this now is that data centers where they’ve gone, it’s all about corporate profit. And then to Mary, to your point- … I think there has to be a switch because now you’re saying, let me build this in your community. Let me build this in Hammond next to your home.

Right. It’s gonna be great. And I think the companies haven’t really talked about community engagement and how they’re going to take the profits that they make and put that back into… You know, so will the schools get, free data storage? Will infrastructure be improved?

I think

that’s

[00:41:38] David: at least give free Wi-Fi to the

[00:41:41] joe: Exactly. Exactly. And not kickbacks to the mayor. Like, you know, actual,

[00:41:45] Geo: Real, Well-

[00:41:46] joe: real community things

that you’re gonna help anybody.

[00:41:49] Mary: it’s j- it’s just gonna help us.

[00:41:50] Geo: Yeah. right.

[00:41:51] joe: Not gonna build a new body … I mean- it’s just gonna help us. I mean… Yeah. Right. Right. I mean, that’s… But but your community would be the one directly impacted, and so if you’re coming into that community or the watershed community, let’s say that.

[00:41:58] Mary: Mean,

[00:41:58] joe: you know- right, so that would be Lake [00:42:00] County, you know, for instance, because now they’re talking Munster, Hammond, Crown

Point.

So you- Oh, for sure. You’re right. Hobart. So

you would have several data centers coming in. And so what are these communities getting out of that? Are the libraries gonna get some books , and maybe some free Wi-Fi and some updated computers or access to just the server?

So you-

[00:42:18] Geo: you’re talking about ways- I

[00:42:19] joe: think there are ways-

[00:42:20] David: To get back to the beginning thing we were talking about, right? Like, the electric company, when they build a power plant in the 1800s, everybody in the town’s lights turned on, right. Like, you got something very clearly beneficial at the community level when these companies came in to exploit your natural resources.

So it only seems like the least they could do is give us Wi-Fi

[00:42:45] joe: Yeah.

[00:42:46] Geo: And I

[00:42:46] Nick: And I, honestly, I don’t think the trade-off is worth it for just

[00:42:49] David: No. At least they’re not selling it in

any

[00:42:52] joe: right

[00:42:52] Nick: It’s

not gonna be a good-

Wi-Fi … Wi-Fi It’s gonna be a- Like- It’s

gonna be subpar at best

[00:42:56] joe: yeah

[00:42:57] David: be dial-up.

[00:42:58] Geo: And

they’re

giving you noise [00:43:00] pollution. They’re giving you, you know, all

[00:43:03] Nick: Yeah.

no the benefits

don’t outweigh the cons.

Like- I know

[00:43:08] David: Or at least they’re not making them obvious

[00:43:09] joe: if they’re making, $100 billion then they can patch up the roads, they can invest in schools, they can invest in libraries. So you can sweeten the… I mean, I think if your community- They- But they won’t

sweeten the pot. Well- If, if- I think at some point they’re gonna have to because- They have to look at the impact … I just don’t think… I think they’re gonna run into a wall. Then don’t get out. I get that they’re promising things now. But for other businesses- For now, right.

That’s right. Well … are not gonna happen. Right. They’re not, they’re go- Yeah … they’re promising the moon right now if they can- Yeah … if only they can come and pollute our water and- Oh, we’re just a little AI company … And drive up our energy- Just a small one … sky high. Small one. We’re gonna need a billion gallons of water,

patch up the roads, they can invest in schools, they can invest in libraries. So you can sweeten the… I

[00:43:18] Nick: But they

[00:43:18] Mary: But they

have no-

[00:43:20] Geo: But they

[00:43:20] Nick: But they’re not going to

wants something- And it, if they promise it- Right … it’s not gonna be an actual thing that they do …

because

[00:43:25] joe: think… I think they’re gonna run into a wall.

[00:43:28] Geo: n- n-

[00:43:29] Nick: don’t get me wrong You know? I guarantee they’ll promise it eventually.

But fulfilling these promises Well… Well … are not gonna happen. right

[00:43:35] Mary: They’re not, they’re g- they’re promising …the moon right now. If they

could, if only

they could come in and- pollute our

[00:43:41] Nick: water and-

“Oh, I’m just a wittle AI

center. Don’t look at me” sky drive up our stock. A small one. “It’s just a small one. they need. worry.” A few

gallons of water,

[00:43:49] Mary: Yeah, fingers crossed.

But they’re making so many promises right now, how could they ever fulfill these financial

[00:43:55] Nick: Especially with them not making the money that

they need back. Well- Right …

[00:43:58] joe: have a, do have a [00:44:00] fun a fun list. I don’t know. I have a few kind of lists about this. I figured but where data centers have gone in, in heat use and to the community, and it, a lot of these are really interesting. Most are in Europe, but in Microsoft… So we, the, we we’re hearing a lot about data centers now, but Microsoft in 2011 in a white paper coined a term data furnace, and their idea was that they would take their server racks and replace home heating systems.

So homeowners would get free heat.

[00:44:32] David: That’s awesome and then you would have this whole, and so-

[00:44:36] Geo: how do they- … one of those companies-

How do they get it from the data center to the person’s house? I,

[00:44:40] joe: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And get your

[00:44:41] Geo: You

[00:44:42] Nick: You would have a giant rack of just- They come to

[00:44:44] David: now you have a

problem “

[00:44:45] Geo: Okay, we got your heat”

[00:44:47] joe: there’s, steam. There’s ways you can transfer

[00:44:50] Mary: are immediately peeing on those server racks … so 100%. what

[00:44:54] joe: did were- 100%. Exactly … so in, there’s a UK startup called Deep Green, so these are now [00:45:00] real-world cases,, where they install server racks directly under swimming pools submerged in oil, and the heat from the servers warm the pools.

[00:45:07] Nick: seen those.

[00:45:08] Mary: there

[00:45:08] joe: seen that, yeah. And so you go, you had the Equinox Par- Paris Data Center in 2024 Summer Olympics that heated the Olympic Aquatic Center and it’s gonna be free for the next 15 years via a heat network. There’s a Norwegian lobster farm that’s heated by a nearby data center, and I had to have this.

We had a turpentine farm on the

[00:45:29] David: yeah. Uh-huh.

[00:45:30] joe: I saw this story… have this heat and this lobster farm, so you have this really interesting thing that you could then think about the heat generation. Are there ways to use that?

Now once again, is that community… Are there ways that you can heat- A homeless shelter nearby. Or, are other things in the community that would be useful that you are you’re making this trade-off- Which … but

[00:45:53] Nick: your breaking point? Right,

[00:45:54] joe: right.

I mean, you’re also gaining.

So I think that’s where these data centers have to come in with community [00:46:00] leaders and get creative and say, “Well, we know what this is all about. We’re not gonna try to blow smoke,

[00:46:05] Nick: Is this us trying to aim at

data

centers to hire us

as community outreach?

[00:46:10] joe: outreach? Sure, ‘

[00:46:11] Nick: they’re-

[00:46:12] joe: They’re paying up the bills. I mean, you know,

[00:46:15] Nick: They storing our episodes

for free.

[00:46:17] joe: the

[00:46:17] Geo: wouldn’t hold your… Yeah …I would not hold your breath, not hold those up. But yeah, you have… I mean, and in just different locations too. I mean, we talk about rural centers and we- and mostly America, but you have ones that are buried under like, you know, old Cold War bunkers in Stockholm.

[00:46:34] joe: So they kinda go down there. It’s cold. I saw one in Antarctica. It’s a functioning data center at the South Pole, and so you don’t really have a cooling problem down there ’cause it is cold. So you have these places that are Kansas City, SubTropolis in Kansas City, so it- it’s in a, it’s in a cave.

And so you have this massive carved into an underground limestone mine. And so these kind of old mines [00:47:00] that we had, can you put data centers down there? Which naturally in our episode where we talked about living underground can you use these naturally occurring places that are cold that you don’t have to then use as much water to…

‘Cause the water is what we’re using to cool these, so can we actually find other ways to cool these centers? And other technologies-

[00:47:21] Geo: you might, you’re just gonna open another can of worms at that.

point. You know what I mean?

[00:47:25] Nick: We’ll figure, we’ll cross that bridge when it comes to it. We’ll

[00:47:28] joe: do that episode next season Well, that

[00:47:30] Mary: bridge when it comes to it. Yeah,

We’ll do that episode- Don’t worry … next season. Well, then th-

[00:47:31] joe: you- Oh, I’m just throwing

[00:47:32] Mary: also… Yeah, no I hear that But

like,

I wonder if

[00:47:35] Geo: like, like

[00:47:37] Mary: we have to like hit them where they live as far as like financially.

mm-hmm. You know, I mean, they don’t … I mean,

what is right now it- they’re just able to just run rampant with like no consequences

whatsoever. But what if they actually had to pay taxes on- …the AI data centers that, you know, that they’re [00:48:00] creating?

[00:48:00] Nick: I think that would be up to the politicians- right. to go ahead and- grow a pair.

[00:48:05] joe: Yep.

Oh.

[00:48:06] Mary: Right on that problem .yeah.

[00:48:07] Nick: Grow them a

[00:48:08] joe: pair. Or- The data

centers are going in where they’re going

[00:48:10] David: Or that.

[00:48:11] joe: because regulations

[00:48:13] Mary: are lax.

[00:48:13] joe: are lax.

Mm-hmm.

Right? So …the areas that they’re … If you’ve, if you track where the data centers are primarily going in- Mm-hmm … it’s because regulations don’t exist for these things. You’re ta- you know, Mary, you’re, I mean, you hit right on the head there. That’s why. So you can almost go, “Why are they building this in, you know, wherever?”

The worst place to build the data center by all means.

[00:48:33] Mary: As we like- Why are you buil- why are You building it in Hammond? Because Hammond …has never

seen a bad idea- that they didn’t wanna throw money at.

Okay. So yeah.

But

yeah, I think

there’s one a data center on State Line Avenue or something.

Yeah. Or anyway,

Hammond. Yeah. They want to expand it.

[00:48:50] Nick: Hmm.

[00:48:50] Geo: they already voted

that

they aren’t, didn’t

[00:48:53] Mary: I,

well, they’re June ch- 30th- Oh 2026. So when this, you know, we’ll see.

[00:48:59] Nick: It’s already passed. [00:49:00]

[00:49:00] Mary: It’s already passed.

well, you know, it’s, I, it’s hard to s- it’s hard to say like I, you know, I’ve been going to like these city city council meetings and

[00:49:08] Nick: like Oh, no, I was saying as of the day

[00:49:10] Mary: Yeah,

that’s pa- it’s already passed.

But I think that I get the sense that, you know, even they, they are yeah, these companies seem kind of,

[00:49:19] Nick: You

know,

[00:49:19] Mary: too, yeah- icky

or too good to be

true or

[00:49:21] Geo: they’re- Right … They might be kind of figuring

it out. Yeah.

[00:49:24] Mary: may- Yeah,

I mean, don’t worry. I mean, I’m sure they will, they’ll figure out a way to, to make it happen but,

But yeah, there’s just, Do you … I don’t know. I

I just-

Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead,

[00:49:36] Geo: No, I’m sorry. I didn’t mean … to I just think it’s crazy ’cause I remember learning about computers when I was young, and they would talk about

The first computers took up huge rooms and,

like-

and you had, you know.

And now, ooh, now we have- everything, everything we have are now on this little

smartphone. But all we’ve done is then just-

[00:49:59] Mary: The Huge

[00:50:00] rooms

are still

there

[00:50:00] Geo: You know? Yeah. It’s like- you

[00:50:02] Nick: replace one- with

another

[00:50:04] joe: Yeah. Yep.

[00:50:05] David: Yeah.

I just wanna make it a little bit worse

[00:50:07] Geo: Oh. They do. Yes.

[00:50:08] Mary: we don’t need another huge room. Yeah

Yeah. You know? It’s like- you replace one with a nine. Yeah. Yeah. Well- Please do. Yes. Yeah

[00:50:09] David: in ad- in addition to all the companies, there’s also the military

that’s building lots and lots of data center infrastructures, and they’re getting these really long leases, 50-year leases, where they can then just… Who– You know, I mean, like, I do trust the military

but, you know, come on.

This seems like the military industrial complex on steroids in some way when you start doing the data center integration into the AI with

autonomous military capabilities. It just–

[00:50:45] Geo: Surveillance?

[00:50:46] joe: Yeah,

[00:50:46] David: even worse.

[00:50:47] joe: Yeah.

[00:50:48] Geo: I know.

Well,

[00:50:50] David: All right. Anyway.

[00:50:50] joe: to make it even worse, ’cause we talked about power, and I don’t wanna bash it, but, the rush to find power sources to improve our grid, you [00:51:00] have nuclear power. And so now we’re starting to talk about reactivating or activating, shuttered nuclear power plants to bring them back online to feed the beast.

And so, like, Three

[00:51:11] David: Three Mile Island

[00:51:12] joe: Is there, which was– almost had a near meltdown. And so… And that’s just kind of, for… A meltdown is when the reactor’s core overheats and you can’t cool it down with water, so the nuclear fuel begins to melt. And then there’s not coolant to absorb that, so you have a disaster

[00:51:28] Geo: go wrong?

[00:51:29] joe: you know, heads

[00:51:30] Mary: I’m sure everything will-

[00:51:31] joe: I’m sure everything will be fine.

[00:51:34] David: Island is the Crane Clean Energy Center.

[00:51:38] joe: Yeah.

[00:51:39] Geo: Ah.

[00:51:39] Mary: it’s clean. It

has

clean. in the name. Right. It’s, it, w- oh, it’s, it must

[00:51:43] joe: that’s the idea of it. So no, you have that.

[00:51:45] David: But it’s Microsoft, right? Yeah

[00:51:47] Mary: Yeah. oh boy.

[00:51:48] joe: But

you do have these ideas, where you go, these, I w- I talked about these submerged kind of centers as you go in liquid.

And so you’re talking about submerging them underwater, ocean, submerged ocean [00:52:00] centers, so you can, place them there where you can dissipate heat, and you got tons of water, you know. So you do have these,

you know-

[00:52:08] Geo: that-

[00:52:08] Nick: then the- … environmental effect is gonna be harming what, the fish?

[00:52:12] joe: No,

[00:52:13] Nick: I mean, For changing- the temperature of the water down there?

[00:52:16] joe: It will be fairly negligible because of so much, because you have so much water that you’re not, the heat load now won’t be, I mean, so

[00:52:25] Nick: You’re still producing the same amount of heat- but it’s just in a larger area.

[00:52:28] joe: So it will disperse … so like- Right. Right … you’re

[00:52:31] Geo: you’re

[00:52:32] Nick: hurting the environment of-

[00:52:34] joe: You-

[00:52:35] Nick: said creatures. Yes.

[00:52:37] joe: locally. I mean, you might,

you

[00:52:38] Nick: not humans that you’re doing it to … but You’re doing

it to- sea creatures.

[00:52:43] joe: creatures.

Right, right. And you

gotta think about what you’re doing, but you go low enough, then you…

Are you just you know, there’s a question, you know, you put things under stress, heat stress, they, you know, either A,

They will evolve and adapt, or you get a

new,

[00:52:55] David: die.

[00:52:56] joe: you get a new, you get a new, cohort come in and [00:53:00] live there. So around a data center, do you have different organisms that pop up and, you know, right.

[00:53:05] Geo: Right.

[00:53:06] joe: mean, you do have

heat, you have heat

vents in the ocean. It’s not like there’s not, hot things in… I mean, I’m just, you know, kind of putting out

there that, that you kind of bury it there. But yeah. That’s

[00:53:14] Nick: Just

like all humans, yeah

we bury our problems. Yes.

[00:53:17] David: You would drive evolution of new microbes

[00:53:20] joe: probably would, yes.

[00:53:21] Mary: Oh, you know

[00:53:23] joe: Microbes.

[00:53:23] Mary: Let’s get

[00:53:24] David: Definitely

[00:53:25] Mary: You know what? We haven’t gone a single… We haven’t gone the whole time without mentioning The Thing, which we’re all Thing fans, right?

So would it be great with

[00:53:34] joe: Antarctica out there. Right.

No one took the

[00:53:36] Nick: I wasn’t going to. I didn’t want to.

[00:53:37] Mary: I’m taking the bait now.

Like, imagine, like, the heat vents and the new microbes and

[00:53:43] joe: you thaw

[00:53:43] Mary: Wow. Anyway, Yeah, yeah.

yeah- …we unthawed The Thing. But what… Okay, I wanna get super petty right now and talk about, like, the dumbest things that I, wanna talk about really dumb things that AI suggests to me, and this is some…

Okay,

[00:53:58] Nick: so.

Wait. Hold on

[00:53:59] David: [00:54:00] Is this a segment?

[00:54:01] Nick: quick.

[00:54:01] Geo: This-

[00:54:01] joe: That’s right. A new feature. a

[00:54:03] Mary: New feature …new feature. Okay, let’s just talk… I mean, because we’re, like, ruining the planet and destroying the water and driving up our electric bills for these… Okay, so, Georgia and I are children’s librarians, and one of the things that we do is we print out lots and lots of coloring sheets for little kids, right?

So, like, I’ll get… Sometimes I’ll just download, like, a batch of, like, 16 different coloring sheets on a particular theme, and some AI dipshit whatever comes up and says, “This appears to be a long document. Would you like me to summarize it?” It’s a

[00:54:37] joe: a coloring sheet.

[00:54:37] Mary: coloring

sheet. It’s coloring

sheets, okay? don’t need it summarized.

I just- … get out of my face. Let me

[00:54:47] David: Thanks, Copilot.

[00:54:49] Mary: I don’t… Every

ti- Okay, so I am a proud Luddite when it comes to AI. I mean, I’m sure I’m using it without realizing it, but every time they’re like, “Would [00:55:00] you like to use this?” No. Click. You know, it just… It’s a constant game of Whac-A-Mole just to…

Like, listen, I don’t need my coloring sheet summarized. I know how to write an email. It’s not a problem. I don’t… It,

[00:55:14] Geo: You know. And then it

[00:55:14] Mary: then-

[00:55:15] Geo: can’t even get voice to text right.

[00:55:18] Mary: Oh, okay. There you

go.

[00:55:19] joe: boy. Right?

[00:55:20] Mary: Let’s,

yeah, talk about-

[00:55:21] joe: you- ‘

[00:55:22] Nick: cause you’re shouting at your phone if you had

[00:55:23] joe: a data center in Hammond- Then-

then you wouldn’t have this problem.

[00:55:27] Mary: Let’s- Just ’cause you’re shouting at Google. If you had NASA and Hammond- Right …you wouldn’t have this problem.

That’s right.

Yeah.

I have

a lot of other

problems. than Hammond. That’s

true.

Oh my God. I I have, I was gonna go some fictional things that I like talk… I mean, we can think of supercomputers gone wrong in fiction- Mm-hmm … but I went back. There was,

[00:55:41] Geo: a- … life is so dystopian, do we really need dystopian?

[00:55:44] Mary: really. Do we need to bar? Do

we need to bar

trouble

here?

[00:55:47] joe: out two

[00:55:48] David: there any happy fiction?

[00:55:49] joe: Short– I wanna point out two short fictions- Okay … that I think are kind of cool, and one was The Machine Stops, E.M. Forster

[00:55:58] David: Yeah [00:56:00]

[00:56:00] joe: where humans live underground in pods, and they’re comp- completely dependent on a global machine for food, communication, and social connection.

The machine runs everything until it doesn’t. And so you can imagine in 1909, this is before internet, radio, commercial, aviation, so you really have this kind of dependency on something and then when it collapses, like, what happens? So very good thought piece.

And then Isaac Asimov, who I think just, you know, really good idea generation. The Last Question, and it’s about a supercomputer is asked whether entropy can be reversed, and then the supercomputer keeps evolving and computing until after the heat death of the universe.

[00:56:44] David: Cool

[00:56:45] joe: Both of these are really short. I think they’re, like, nine, 10 pages long, both of them, so.

[00:56:50] Geo: AI could summarize it.

for you. it

[00:56:51] joe: could- summarize it. AI could …summarize

it very well. You can ask

AI. I

[00:56:55] David: to

add a tiny bit of level- levity,

right? The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Out- Galaxy, [00:57:00] the

AI, he fed it everything, and what’s the answer to the universe?

[00:57:05] joe: long- and-

So long, and and Thanks For All The Fish, right? Yeah. So,

[00:57:10] David: Exactly

[00:57:11] Nick: you have the-

[00:57:11] Mary: we don’t have

[00:57:12] joe: we have data centers down there

[00:57:13] Geo: Oh,

[00:57:13] Mary: if we put the data centers down there, then they

all evaporate and

boil.

Yeah.

We get a,

… little fish

boil there.

[00:57:19] Nick: Yum,

[00:57:19] joe: yum. Yeah.

[00:57:20] Mary: Good eating.

[00:57:22] joe: But

yeah, that’s, you can go there. Yeah. So I was gonna, Dave, I was gonna go and touch a little bit into biology maybe, and we talked about, we were joking about the aquatic creatures that, that Nick is worried about by the data centers.

Yes. Yes, I am.

[00:57:35] Nick: Yes, I am.

[00:57:37] joe: But for, but when you stress cells, I was kinda thinking of biological metaphors to our data centers they decide what to sacrifice, and so is that… I you were pointing this out about AI, that is AI going to go, “Here’s how I should throttle or shut down non-essential things.”

I mean, is that a biological equivalent [00:58:00] or, you wanna touch on that? Your research kinda touches into that, so I wanted to give you some,

[00:58:03] David: Yeah. So, you know, we basically study resource allocation, but just how cells do it instead of economies or households or individuals, but Cells, they don’t have as much choice. There’s not a lot of free will if you’re a cell. You know, the primary directive is to grow and proliferate. Of course, that, you know, not if you’re an adult human, by and large, most cells, that’s what they’re trying to do, is take nutrients in from the environment, build another copy of themselves. And so when they ha- encounter stresses in the environment, no matter what they have to do to cope with that whatever positive thing that they need

to do, they always have to do the same negative thing, which is slow down. They can’t grow as

fast because

they have to spend some of their [00:59:00] energy on coping with the stress that’s in front of them before

they can even consider thinking about growing.

‘Cause if they tried to grow before

they coped with the stress, they would just pop. So when I find it hard to extrapolate that insight that we have about How constrained

cells’ budgets really are onto what seems like a system that humans have set up to be utterly hungry, insatiable,

rather than

ever

having to balance

budget

ever experience stress

where you have to have some trade off. it just

seems like we’re just feeding them raw sugar,

you know, in the form of data centers.

And,

So I just,

I don’t think

these architectures are

inherently adaptive in the same kind of [01:00:00] way that you and I would

be familiar with, where you actually have to think about

some trade off and some Yeah you can’t have your cake and eat it too, and these models can right now. And I think that’s that hard constraint

That they can

long as the world

suffers

and we take the water and we raise the temperature of the climate.

Like,

there

is no free lunch here.

It’s just the budget and the cost and the stress is being put not into the models, but onto us

[01:00:32] joe: What I mean is that, I mean, will the machine, if it becomes self-aware- Yeah

[01:00:39] Geo: Yeah.

[01:00:39] joe: will it care? I mean, will it then go will it try to,

like, regulate itself, right? I

[01:00:44] Nick: on what

[01:00:45] joe: Yeah.

[01:00:46] Nick: becoming self-aware with? Like-

[01:00:48] David: So the best essay I’ve read on this precise topic was by this guy, Siddhartha Mukherjee. Do you know this guy? He wrote the

[01:00:56] Mary: No Cancer, the

[01:00:56] David: cancer.

the great book about

cancer.

[01:00:58] joe: Yeah. The [01:01:00] malady of all… Yeah, right. Yeah,

[01:01:01] David: yeah, The Emperor of All

Maladies.

[01:01:02] joe: Seth wrote a new book, right? Is

[01:01:04] David: Yeah. he has several new books. So what he’s working on now, and he’s, so this essay is a, something I read in The New York Times a few weeks ago. It’s part of their series, What Drives Us. So it’s in trying to get thinkers to tell you about what’s motivating them. And so he’s been Trying to cure cancer his whole career. And lately, he

has turned to training an AI model

try to make cancer

drugs, right?

[01:01:29] Mary: Mm-hmm.

[01:01:31] David: essay is

[01:01:32] Nick: cancer drugs?

[01:01:33] Mary: you said cancer drugs?

[01:01:33] joe: Yeah

[01:01:33] David: yeah, drugs to, to cure people of

cancer,

right?

That he wants to build,

[01:01:38] Nick: Got it. I was like That’s cool. Yeah. Yeah, right Thought he was like-

[01:01:39] joe: Useful.

[01:01:40] David: AI to cure cancer, to

make drugs.

[01:01:42] Geo: he was like, “

[01:01:43] Nick: I’m gonna give everyone cancer. Here’s the drugs.”

And

I’m

like,

“Oh, damn, that got

[01:01:48] David: that except good.

[01:01:49] joe: That’s good. Yeah, this isn’t the Spider-Man villain episodes, okay?

[01:01:52] David: No. This guy seems like a really genuinely, like, wonderful guy. Very thoughtful. The essay’s about [01:02:00] him talking to his mom actually in part. But the thing is he finds that the amount– the way that this model is, like, learning to understand cancer protein folding and how small molecules that might help patients could interact with these proteins at the very atomic level, and it was learning these kind of chemistry and physics rules. He just realized that this thing, once It’s starting to

Work a little bit. But once it works

it’s

gonna work because it went far beyond whatever

he could do,

and it’s learning on its own, and it figures it out. And

he started talking about it like his own child and like, you know, you can hope you send your child out into the world with good values

but ultimately what they do when they grow up is very much on them.

[01:02:55] joe: Right

[01:02:56] David: And so if these [01:03:00] models get smart enough to the point that they can really do things, what He argues is the best thing we can do is try

to give them good values, like we’re their parents

and try to…

[01:03:11] Nick: has not happened at all

[01:03:12] Geo: Right, has

[01:03:13] David: Which is certainly not what

we’re doing right?

now, right? But, like, to raise them in a nurturing

way and teach them what

human is.

Be- teach them about humanism,

right? And, like, all the beautiful things humans have done, and that is really, like, our last best hope at getting these models to

actually be nice to us

later on

[01:03:35] joe: or should you not teach them human values, but cellular values that you have to respect the limits of your resources, right? Because human values, there’s a lot in there, but if you just take it down to what you were talking about, the free will of a cell is just to grow, proliferate, live within your means.

That’s actually what we’re not teaching AI right now. Right now we’re teaching AI [01:04:00] you can have as much power, as much water,

[01:04:02] Nick: Oh, I thought you were gonna say it, We’re teaching it racism …

[01:04:05] joe: gener- well,

[01:04:05] Geo: porn. In gen- Well, I mean- Well, that

too.

[01:04:06] joe: Yeah. What did David say? Every data

server is a, you know, a,

[01:04:10] David: To a- first approximation.

[01:04:12] joe: It’s

just porn.

So yeah,

I think there are these

things where you can go and if that happens I still don’t know if, I don’t know if that jump singularity is gonna happen. I’m still, you know, I think there’s things that

y- is

the hype and the super hype and then the mega hype, and I think that’s one of them.

But, just hedging the bets if it happens, I do see the fictional scenario where AI just goes, “Your humanity is not worth” … I just feel like it’s kind of like we we’ll be in some war and we’re gonna lose because we need water and it’s kind of…

And we’ve used it all for the data centers.

[01:04:47] Geo: That’s

[01:04:47] Nick: can

[01:04:48] David: is exactly like Waterworld.

[01:04:50] Nick: like

[01:04:51] joe: yeah.

[01:04:51] Nick: you

[01:04:52] joe: We just flood their GPUs and we win. Yay.

Yes, no, but that was something, I think it’s yeah it, can we [01:05:00] actually train AI to think about natural resources and to… And I think people

are I,

I think there are folks trying to do that and find better ways

that you

grow,

and if

you become more efficient, you grow and we keep all the pegs, the legs of the table growing with it.

That’s the community, that’s energy resources, water resources. What are we doing with the

technology?

Not just consuming it, but are we doing, are we trying to find cures to human diseases and cancers and things like that? And having fun too. I mean, I think that’s part of human nature.

But,

Is it just trying to compile…

Right? Right? I mean, it’s asking you to summarize your document because it wants you to get hooked. It’s like a drug.

And if you get hooked to

[01:05:45] Geo: if you get hooked to it … I’m already, I’m already-

[01:05:46] Mary: addicted

to enough things.

I don’t need, I don’t to be addicted

to AI. Yeah, I know.

[01:05:51] joe: addicted

[01:05:52] Nick: what’s really cool? I’m already-

Drugs.

[01:05:54] joe: I know.

Really You know, I

don’t need,

I don’t need no digital

drugs.

[01:05:58] Mary: what were you gonna say, Georgia?

[01:05:59] Nick: Oh, [01:06:00]

[01:06:00] Geo: I just think the bottom line is we’d just be so much better off. I’m not saying, like, we can totally disconnect, but-

if- we

[01:06:08] Nick: everyone on drugs.

[01:06:12] Geo: But I

think if we just took less… If we just took more time away from our devices and, yeah. Just in general. Yeah.

[01:06:20] Mary: Well, every generation- is a response to the one before it, so- maybe, like, the-

m- maybe the next

generation is going to be like, “Oh, this is really cool, this pen and paper thing.” You know, all bespoke and everything.

[01:06:32] Geo: Right.

[01:06:33] Mary: So yeah, I…

Oh, boy.

[01:06:35] Nick: even the disconnecting part is hard for everyone.

[01:06:38] Geo: It is.

[01:06:38] Nick: alone

have a smartwatch on

your

[01:06:41] Geo: It is. hard. Like,

[01:06:42] Nick: as soon as It buzzes, you’re gonna look at it because-

[01:06:46] Geo: That’s

what we’re- It- It’s also

[01:06:47] joe: privilege too, right? So to disconnect from the world, you have to be privileged enough to not care about whoever the dean’s writing me about something, right? I gotta be able to put that aside, right? There’s some level of privilege [01:07:00] that you need that you can actually detach. So either, A you have the device and you’re in the world and you can now have some, you know, forward momentum in, in society.

And then at some point you can go, “You know what? I don’t need the device. I’m gonna put it away. I’m gonna go this week without

checking emails.”

[01:07:18] Geo: Well, I think- it gets back to what we could learn from the cell. Yeah.

You know what I mean?

[01:07:23] Mary: Yeah. The

[01:07:24] David: Allocate

your

[01:07:25] joe: the regular

[01:07:26] Mary: Well, it, I mean,

like-

[01:07:27] joe: you’re an

extremophile cell, and then

you’d use whatever garbage you get.

But

[01:07:32] Geo: …e-

[01:07:33] Mary: e- at like

exponential

growth. I mean, when d- where does it s- where does it stop?

yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I mean, it’s-

[01:07:40] joe: Yeah. Yeah …

[01:07:41] Mary: I don’t…

Yeah.

[01:07:42] Geo: just-

I mean, bizarro …I mean,

[01:07:44] joe: think you have…

Right?

I I also, I think people are like, “Oh, we shouldn’t regulate because that hurts innovation.”

And you know- … we look at, but we look at other… We look at the Industrial Revolution [01:08:00] and there was no

[01:08:01] Geo: regulation- We we know what happens when there’s- no regulations. I mean,

[01:08:04] joe: it was

a, it was pretty bad, right? You know-

You don’t- …

child labor, don’t need limbs.

[01:08:09] Geo: work.

Yeah, Okay. So

[01:08:11] joe: I, I think you could have had regulation and growth at the same time, and, you know,

you wouldn’t “

be, Oh, look at this disaster.”

Like it

would be a case study. Right. but So I think you would have that, um- Musk

[01:08:22] Mary: be a trillionaire. And why, well, …well- no one think of-

[01:08:25] Nick: trillionaire. Whoa, why are you trying to attack Elon Musk? Oh, well, we He’s a billionaire. We can’t attack

him. He’s a now.

[01:08:32] Geo: no. trillion.

There’s a effect, okay?

[01:08:35] joe: It’ll all But,

[01:08:36] Mary: yeah, it’s,

Are there any good uses of, for AI, of AI,

[01:08:41] Geo: of AI? Well, I think he was giving- that example- of using it for like- No, like for- There, Yeah.

[01:08:47] Mary: are there in-

[01:08:48] joe: the- …therapeutics.

I think, you know, medical diagnostics. I mean, I think there are. I mean, if you

are- Yeah

[01:08:55] David: Yes.

[01:08:55] joe: you have-

[01:08:56] David: the answer is yes but they [01:09:00] certainly- don’t directly impact most people

day to day in any tangible way.

[01:09:07] joe: Yep

[01:09:08] David: They’re abstract. They’re kind of enterprise productivity type things. It’s coding.

It’s helping people that don’t need help, and it’s not helping people that do

[01:09:22] joe: Yeah. Or super personal, like, some of the stuff where, , we were talking about devices, brain interface, quadriplegians being able to inter-

right. I

I think you are having… Yes I think you have that. But the majority of it is memes, you know,

[01:09:37] David: slop right. It’s just kind of,

[01:09:38] Mary: just,

[01:09:39] joe: trying to get AI to do things that, , let’s replace human creativity and it’s like, well, why?

Isn’t that the, you know, that’s the fun part of it all,

[01:09:47] Nick: like, I mean, didn’t you just listen to the first,

AI generate fake porn.

[01:09:51] joe: Right, yeah.

That’s right. Yeah.

[01:09:52] David: more porn.

[01:09:53] joe: We

[01:09:53] Mary: S- So

[01:09:54] Geo: I, so-

We can’t

[01:09:54] joe: pay the real

people to do it. Let’s

[01:09:56] Mary: So are we really just,

Blowing up the planet [01:10:00] for slop and porn?

[01:10:01] Nick: We’ve done it for less.

[01:10:02] joe: Okay.

Yeah. I think that-

[01:10:03] Geo: w- I think that about-

[01:10:05] Nick: done it for

[01:10:05] David: I think

[01:10:06] joe: right? Yeah, mean, it’s

[01:10:07] David: we were gonna

[01:10:08] Nick: that

[01:10:09] David: title This episode. blowing up the planet for slopping porn Is pretty much,

[01:10:14] Geo: yeah.

[01:10:15] Mary: Yeah, I thi-

[01:10:16] Nick: might be the top rated episode.

[01:10:17] Mary: like-

[01:10:18] joe: be. That’s right.

Maybe I need the slop

and porn. Maybe that

changes-

[01:10:21] Mary: I was gonna say,

Like, tell me I’m wrong, but, you know, yeah, it just, like, I guess it’s just all for slop.

Yeah. Yeah.

[01:10:28] David: Right now.

[01:10:29] Mary: now. Oh, wow.

[01:10:29] joe: Or 80%.

[01:10:32] Geo: 80 is

[01:10:32] Nick: it’s- a

percent-

[01:10:33] joe: don’t know.

[01:10:33] Nick: that’s used for- It’s I mean, why- … the home use … you know,

[01:10:36] Geo: the water is

[01:10:37] joe: right? It’s all, it’s consumer-based, right? So we live in a, I mean, consumer and the promise that the consumers will turn around and pay money for this, right?

Like a subscription service.

So I think …that’s the whole

[01:10:49] Mary: To get them hooked.

[01:10:50] joe: That’s right. So that’s why… And that’s, you know, there’s more people in non… Not everyone’s a researcher trying to solve a structure to [01:11:00] push their research for defined drug targets, or what new antibiotics can we find, right? I mean,

that, there, there’s,

That’s happening in the background, but the

stuff we hear about

and the stuff we see is

[01:11:09] Geo: the majority of it is- right. yeah …And that’s

[01:11:12] joe: problem

is that you’re feeding that beast, and then you’re saying, “Well, how can we have, how can we hook the consumer more? Oh, if we can give them more short form videos. Can we give them more, you know, what they want? If they, if you want this story with this person in it, can we give that to you right away?”

Like, because you can’t wait for it. And then it’s gonna happen slowly, but it’s gonna be

now

you have to pay for it.

And

think that’s the thing we don’t know yet is when that transition happens, how many people will go, “Okay, I’ll pay for it,” or how many people will be like Georgia and, “You know what?

I don’t need it that bad. I’m gonna find something else to do with my money or time and not be hooked into it.” So I think we have this, like, kind of freemium I think they call it. It’s where it’s free for a while-

[01:11:56] Mary: Ah, I

see.

[01:11:57] joe: you build up, like not a premium,

[01:11:59] Geo: and then premium-

[01:11:59] joe: a [01:12:00] freemium- There’s that- and you go,

and then it, and then so that’s like your search engines now.

How long will it be before Google stops digesting, AI

digesting-

[01:12:08] Geo: gotta figure out your

[01:12:09] joe: then you gotta figure… That’s right. Yeah. You gotta, You gotta, figure that out on your own, lady.

[01:12:15] Geo: gotta

[01:12:15] Nick: they’ll have

a cheaper option with

[01:12:17] Geo: with ads.

[01:12:17] joe: And you’re right, they probably will, right.

I mean, that’s- True

…they’ll have

something to keep you going, but that will be

the model.

I don’t know how long that’s gonna take to, to change, but I see the next probably couple years.

[01:12:28] Nick: We see the same thing with the streaming services. Yes, sir They started off- at such a low price- just to compete with cable. Yeah And now they’re killing cable- and also increasing the prices Yeah It’s that same model

where-

[01:12:41] joe: The

[01:12:41] Mary: the

[01:12:42] David: Same with Uber, Lyft,

[01:12:44] Mary: Hoopla.

[01:12:44] joe: And so you’re killing

blogs- say, hey, Check out Kanopy. It’s amazing.

[01:12:49] Mary: Yeah, your

[01:12:49] Nick: li- Hoopla …

[01:12:50] Mary: get your

library card, and your library probably has a subscription to Hoopla,

[01:12:55] Geo: can actually go- Yeah …

just like an old-fashioned

[01:12:58] Mary: Kanopy with a K.

[01:12:59] Geo: you [01:13:00] can actually go into the libraries like an old Blockbuster Video- Right …

and pick the videos Old DVDs It’s so cool.

Hell Yeah Yeah.

[01:13:08] Nick: I did that. Yeah you just … Some

of them have games, some of them have- Yeah … music and movies.

[01:13:14] Mary: we go check it and you own it. If you in a library or if you buy- Physical,

[01:13:18] Geo: it’s a physical media. Physical. Yeah.

[01:13:21] joe: it.

[01:13:21] Mary: Cloud, Mm-hmm

[01:13:22] joe: the

cloud

could go away one day,

[01:13:24] Mary: Go back to physical media, yeah

[01:13:25] joe: right?

[01:13:25] Nick: Go back to physical media,

[01:13:27] joe: and then you’re sad.

You’re lonely, and you got

nothing.

[01:13:32] Geo: Except each other.

[01:13:33] Mary: Literally.

You got nothing.

[01:13:35] joe: school porn, right?

[01:13:36] Mary: other.

[01:13:37] Nick: porn.

[01:13:38] Mary: Old

[01:13:39] Geo: porn.

[01:13:40] Mary: remember

that magazine.

Where

did I

find it? Where was it at?

[01:13:43] David: I got a bunch of Betamax.

[01:13:45] Nick: I remember when the cloud was- ChatGPT, where’s my

[01:13:48] Mary: old porn magazine?

[01:13:49] joe: was like The Matrix right? You know, I designed her. Like, you know, it’s like yeah.

[01:13:53] Geo: The cloud

[01:13:54] Nick: back in the day was just the f-

[01:13:56] Mary: cloud Real cloud

The

cloud

[01:13:57] joe: Real

[01:13:58] Geo: closet Really? Yeah.

A tree stump with

porn

stuck in it. in my day- I think, I- In my day we had clouds. I couldn’t think of the

[01:13:58] Mary: Like an actual

[01:13:59] Nick: A, a [01:14:00] tree

stump with porn

stuck in it.

[01:14:02] Mary: it.

[01:14:02] Nick: Yeah.

[01:14:02] Mary: Yeah.

[01:14:03] joe: Yeah.

[01:14:03] Mary: In my day.

[01:14:04] joe: In my day,

we had clouds.

[01:14:06] Nick: I couldn’t think of s- the word stump.

[01:14:08] Mary: I-

[01:14:09] Nick: It stumped me.

[01:14:10] Mary: If you, haven’t thought about the word stump- I think it’s time

for us to wrap it

[01:14:13] joe: it up. I’m right.

[01:14:14] Mary: Yeah, I think

[01:14:14] joe: I think it’s Probably

[01:14:15] Mary: time to bring it in. Bring it down home.

[01:14:17] joe: Any

f- last questions? Yeah.

[01:14:19] Geo: We just added to the slop, but-

[01:14:22] Nick: We just added to the slop no, I actually think we hit a lot of

good things this episode.

[01:14:25] Mary: I, well, I would also like to just let people know, anybody who’s listening to this right now, that we’re all actually just AI generated.

[01:14:33] Nick: Well,

[01:14:33] Geo: yeah.

[01:14:34] Mary: Yeah and none of this

[01:14:36] joe: Take me to, your leader.

[01:14:38] Mary: just to mess with you a little bit.

Yeah, none of th- you know, we just put this into a ChatGPT prompt.

[01:14:43] Geo: Are we real?

[01:14:44] joe: we

[01:14:44] Mary: a podcast for-

[01:14:46] joe: We did that an episode- Yeah … in this,

Yeah … season

three with Lily and Generoso. I

[01:14:50] Nick: if you go

[01:14:50] joe: Yeah … I

asked I asked AI to interviewed AI for a segment on that episode. So if you go back and listen to

that. Yeah. We did that.

Yep. Got their opinions. But, [01:15:00]

[01:15:00] Mary: we’re totally real.

[01:15:01] joe: We are real.

We’re real

[01:15:02] Geo: Sure I’m gonna

pinch,

[01:15:04] David: how you know we’re

real

[01:15:05] Mary: because we c- S-

[01:15:06] joe: Yeah.

[01:15:07] Nick: can

[01:15:08] Geo: Yeah.

[01:15:09] joe: You guys didn’t…

[01:15:09] Mary: Sorry, David gave us

the

thumbs-

up- ……and a little wink and

nod. So

[01:15:13] Geo: we

[01:15:13] joe: the nice thing about

is to rabbit hole research, we go out and about, and we interact with our people.

So we are real. We are here.

[01:15:22] Nick: We interact with

[01:15:23] David: out of the burrow

[01:15:24] joe: interact with people. Yeah. We do.

[01:15:26] Nick: I kind of just hide away like a little

rat.

[01:15:28] Mary: blink, blinking

[01:15:29] joe: Let’s give, uh… David,

you got any final words on this climate change data center? Are we all screwed?

[01:15:36] Nick: you leave us on a high note?

[01:15:37] joe: will we a-

[01:15:38] David: Yeah,

no.

[01:15:41] Nick: Say everything’s gonna be okay.

[01:15:43] David: no, I do think that there is a really good chance that, you know, there is some good that comes from all of this

[01:15:51] Mary: Mm-hmm.

[01:15:53] David: industrial scale escalation. Because at the, at least it’s about [01:16:00] intelligence, at least they say it is, and it’s about, like, understanding and getting to the bottom of scientific questions.

And if we can do that a bit with this, that’s gonna be good, and that’s gonna then help us solve a lot of these other problems. If we don’t do that, and if we just slop ourselves into tedium, then we’re doomed. But I do think people are really excited about solving hard problems, and we don’t wanna just look at screens.

We wanna get out there. We wanna do things. We wanna act in the real world and make change. So I’m hopeful and optimistic even though I think right now there’s a lot of Yeah.

Cloudy clouds

over the cloud.

[01:16:52] Mary: Yeah A lot

of wild west- mentality happening

right now.

[01:16:56] joe: Yeah

[01:16:56] David: I do think the science is underneath all of this, and if we [01:17:00] can let it happen, that’s gonna help humanity

[01:17:04] joe: I like that Hell

[01:17:05] Geo: Yeah.

[01:17:06] joe: are you doing?

[01:17:07] Geo: thank

[01:17:07] Nick: Hell yeah. Yeah. Well- Yeah …thank you so much, David, for

being here with us today. Hopefully next season- you’re here-

[01:17:12] David: charm

[01:17:13] Mary: All

[01:17:13] joe: in studio. Yay. We have him on the f- the f- the fourth time, and we’ll see if you get there before whoever was at three before.

[01:17:20] Geo: think he

[01:17:20] Nick: he wants to be on episode one of

[01:17:22] joe: That’s right. Yeah,

[01:17:23] Nick: He’s like, “I’m gonna be the,

[01:17:24] David: exactly.

[01:17:26] joe: He’s always

at the end of the

season. We

always like,

[01:17:29] David: on a bonus episode

[01:17:30] joe: Awesome.

[01:17:32] Geo: Yeah.

Yeah,

[01:17:32] joe: There’s …

You gotta come in studio for that, so that’s,

[01:17:34] David: I’ll make my own jacket that

says four-timer

[01:17:38] Nick: We’ll have

[01:17:39] Geo: We’ll

have AI. we’ll have

[01:17:40] joe: a, we’ll

[01:17:40] David: little stars like I won the World Cup,

[01:17:42] joe: AI,

we’ll have- I was like our number one fan …we’ll have AI

make you something, so, we’ll see.

[01:17:46] Nick: we’ll see.

[01:17:46] Mary: see.

[01:17:47] joe: Well, yeah, on that note,

you have me, Joe.

[01:17:49] Nick: have me, Joe. You

got

[01:17:50] joe: You got Nick.

[01:17:50] Geo: Georgia.

[01:17:51] joe: We’ve got

Nick.

Georgia.

[01:17:52] Mary: got Mary.

[01:17:53] joe: We’ve got Georgia. You got Mary.

[01:17:55] Nick: And-

we went down some

hole. See you.

[01:17:59] joe: Love

[01:18:00] y’all.

Where to find Grace Daly:

Grace’s upcoming books

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Order the Touch of Noir 2027 Wall Calendar by Jim and Georgia—

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Joe:

It’s science for Weirdos

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Podcast Cross-Appearances:

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Upcoming Episodes

What the Crew is Digging, Links, Resources, and Topics Mentioned in mini and/or full episode:

Links & Resources:

Science Holes:

Joe’s Science Holes — Preservation, Extinction & the Race to Save What We Have

Science Terms

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Previous RHOR Episode(s) with Chris:

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Episode 82: Data Centers

Order the Touch of Noir 2027 Wall Calendar by Jim and Georgia—

Jump to Joe’s Reading (But you should listen to all the amazing authors)

Check out what the RHR crew is creating:

Joe:

It’s science for Weirdos

Hang with the Crew:

Podcast Cross-Appearances:

Events & Conventions:

Joe:

Georgia:

Upcoming Episodes

What the Crew is Digging, Links, Resources, and Topics Mentioned in mini and/or full episode:

Links & Resources:

Science Holes:

Science Terms

Media Holes: What the Crew is Digging: