We revisit why you shouldn’t lick rocks, dangers of self-experimenting, dark proteins, de-aging cells, and sadly a 1,000-year-old Peru geoglyph destroyed

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Episode 73 Transcript

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Joe, Nick, and Georgia are back in the Basement Studio — well, sort of. Georgia is remoting in from the American Library Association conference in Chicago, and Nick is in his office. Joe is holding down the Basement Studio solo. The band is together in spirit.

In Episode 73: The Mini: the RHR crew recaps Part 1 of the Spider-Man villains series: Lab Safety (EP 72) episode featuring Tera Lavoie, PhD, and the ongoing debate over whether Nick should be allowed anywhere near a rock alone.

Past guest Lorena checks in with some unfortunate news from Peru, and in Science Holes, Joe brings three stories. A NYTimes story about self experimentation, rewriting what we thought we knew about the human genome, and can we turn back the clock on aging cells.

The crew closes out with what they have been watching, reading, and playing, a few upcoming announcements, and Season 4 is officially happening (was there any doubt).

Stay curious. But don’t lick rocks or sand (come on Nick!)

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Pre-Order: Touch of Noir 2027 Wall Calendar —

12 months of all-original art by Jim and Georgia; pre-orders open now, with mailing expected in September

Joe will be at Shore Leave 46

Lancaster, PA (July 10-12, 2026): Lancaster Wyndham Resort and Convention Center

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Listen to Episode 72:

Spider-Man villains part 1: Lab Safet

Check out what the RHR crew is creating

Joe:

• Named by the Guild Literary Complex as one of the 35 Writers to Watch!
• Red Line: Chicago Horror Stories Anthology featuring a new story by Joe!
• Joe’s Sci-fi physiological thriller Novel: Will You Still Love Me If I Become Someone Else?
• Essay by Joe: From Beyond Press: Specific Knowledge: Jotham Austin, II, PhD on Transformations in Fiction

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It’s science for Weirdos

Want to support the show? Tell your friends. Follow us on social media, Discord, share the podcast, and let us know what topics you are excited about. And to see all the content (studio images and artwork) subscribe to the Rabbit Hole of Research newsletter!

Stay curious, stay speculative, stay safe, and we’ll catch you in the next rabbit hole. Love Y’all!

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Future Events to Hang with the Crew:

Podcast Cross-Appearances

• Watch Joe on Joe Compton’s YouTube channel 21Grams
• The RHR crew on Ben Tanzer’s This podcast will change your life: episode three hundred seventy-nine

Events & Conventions:

• Shore Leave 46 – Lancaster, PA (July 10-12, 2026)Lancaster Wyndham Resort and Convention Center
• Dragon Con – Atlanta, GA (September 3-7, 2026) – Joe attending as Professional

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Upcoming Episodes

*The Mini will now be every other episode!

Three Part Spider-Man Series to get ready for the new MCU Spider-Man: Brand New Day

• Episode 74 – Spider-Man Villains Part 2: Scorpion and the Other ChimerasGuest: Erin C. AnthonyThe crew explores the science of chimeras, genetic splicing, and what it would actually take to create Spider-Man’s most dangerous foes.
• Episode 76 – Spider-Man Villains Part 3: What His Villains Reveal About HimGuest: Comic YouTuber, Alex Hanes (@Hanes4Heroes)The conclusion of the Spider-Man trilogy takes a step back to ask what the science of his villains tells us about Spider-Man himself.
• Episode 78 – Briar East Woods – Urban DeforestationGuest: Anne Sedlacek
• Episode 80: Magic: the Power and Cost of Magic SystemsGuest: B.L.Mostyn

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What the Crew is Digging, Links, Resources, and Topics Mentioned in mini and/or full episode:

Links & Resources:

• Pre-Order: Touch of Noir 2027 Wall Calendar12 months of all-original art by Jim and Georgia; pre-orders open now, with mailing expected in September
• Peru Triple Spiral Geoglyph Destruction 

Science Holes:

1. Against Expert Advice: People Using Synthetic Drugs to Self-Treat Addiction

NYTimes

A New York Times article about people self-experimenting with unapproved synthetic compounds in hopes of breaking addiction. The story follows a woman known as Becks, a former biology major and chemistry hobbyist addicted to opioids, who discovered SR-17018 through Reddit after users flagged a 2019 study showing the compound helped addicted mice reduce dependence. With no approved human trials, no safety data, and no medical oversight, Becks ordered it online and kept a detailed diary of her experience. 

2. Revealed: The Mysterious ‘Dark’ Proteins That Might Play a Big Role in Biology

Nature

Scientists have long assumed that large stretches of the human genome are essentially junk, non-coding regions that don’t appear to do anything meaningful. A new effort is challenging that assumption, officially naming thousands of previously ignored short proteins encoded by these regions “peptideins” and adding them to major gene and protein databases for the first time. 

3. Trial to ‘De-Age’ Cells Treats First Person

Nature

The first human participant has been treated in a gene therapy trial aimed at coaxing aged cells to behave like younger ones. The company Life Biosciences in Boston is targeting a form of glaucoma, activating three reprogramming genes in retinal cells using a virus delivery system — with a built-in safety switch that turns the genes off if the patient stops taking a specific antibiotic. The bigger question of whether de-aged cells can truly enhance longevity remains wide open, and the crew is already eyeing it as a future episode topic.

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Science Terms

• SR-17018 — An unapproved synthetic opioid receptor compound being self-administered by people attempting to treat addiction, sourced from Chinese labs and sold online with no regulatory oversight or human safety data.
• Peptideins — The name for thousands of short proteins encoded by previously ignored regions of the human genome.
• Junk DNA — An informal term for regions of the genome that don’t appear to code for known proteins. 
• Retinal Ganglion Cells — The neurons that make up the optic nerve, targeted in the de-aging trial as a potential treatment for glaucoma. Unlike most neurons, they are not normally capable of regeneration.
• DNA structure — DNA is shaped like a twisted ladder (a double helix), made of two strands of nucleotides that wind around each other and pair up to hold the genetic code
• Nucleotides (A, T, G, C) — the four chemical “letters” of DNA: adenine (A), thymine (T), guanine (G), and cytosine (C). A always pairs with T, and G always pairs with C, forming the rungs of the DNA ladder. The order of these letters provides the instructions for building proteins
• DNA sequencing — the process of reading the order of A, T, G, and C letters in a piece of DNA, allowing scientists to compare genetic codes, identify mutations, and trace ancestry

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What the Crew is Digging:

TV

• Widow’s Bay (Apple TV+)— Joe and Georgia finished the series, and Nick has two more episodes.
• Spider-Man Noir (Amazon)— The crew finished the series. 
• Afterparty (Apple TV+) — Nick just started the second season.

Books

• Wrong Place, Wrong Time by Gillian McAllister
• The Pools by E. Lockhart (advance copy)

Video Games

Resident Evil: Requiem — Nick finished it. No spoilers, so reach out to Nick if you have questions.

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“Stay curious, stay safe… Love Y’all!”

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Subscribe and Share our Substack newsletter to get email updates, never miss an episode, and spread the word!! Don’t forget to give us 5 stars or a like!

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Transcript

joe: [00:00:00] Hey, welcome back to The Rabbit Hole of Research down here in the basement studio I am feeling quite lonely here in a basement studio. It’s just me, Joe, down here

Nick: Oh, well, hey Joe, it’s you got Nick,

joe: got Nick

Nick: I’m all alone in my office too, if that makes you feel any better.

georgia: Hi. I’m here too.

Nick: Who’s that?

georgia: Do you know who I am?

joe: You know, we got Georgia.

Nick: Doesn’t introduce herself.

joe: introduced I know. Yeah. It’s like she’s off

at the ALA

conference

georgia: I need no introduction. No, I’m kidding.

joe: Yeah. All right, Tera

Nick: in, thank you.

joe: I know. That was like Tera, right? She did the same thing. Like, “Oh, you guys know who I am.”

Nick: And they didn’t tell you

joe: but yeah, Georgia, you’re at the ALA. You wanna talk a little bit about that, what you’re doing there?

georgia: Yeah the American Library Association at conference here [00:01:00] in Chicago. So not too far away, but because I have a nice friend that let me stay at, and they live within, like, a 10-minute walk of the conference center, so that’s been nice.

joe: Mm-hmm. Cool

georgia: so I’m missing the basement studio

joe: Missing the basement studio but we’re here.

georgia: Oh, I was gonna say, it’s been really cool. Like, it’s just been this amazing experience. And I was, just before we started recording, like I said, it’s kinda cool that one of our guests was one of the authors at the ALA conference, so. Grace one of our, one of our soon to come guests

joe: right.

Yep. Part of our… Will be part of our horror series in I think it’s before October. So be in there.

We got a few fun episodes, so yeah. Yeah. No, Grace was a good guest, so [00:02:00] excellent. All right, so yeah, last week we talked about lab safety and our kickoff to the Spider-Man villain series, so part one.

It was a fun episode. We learned all about how to be safe in a laboratory and not to lick rocks, so.

georgia: or how not to be safe

Nick: No, it’s how to lick rocks.

joe: Yes. Licking rocks You don’t.

Nick: tell them to

joe: a golem. You don’t lick the rocks. But yeah, it was a

georgia: gotta be a little risky, you know, sometimes

joe: It was a fun episode. We will be two more one on chimeras and one about Spider-Man himself and how the villains have influenced him. So yeah, it should be neat. But yeah. Any thoughts on that episode?

Nick: I can’t wait. I loved it. It was a lot of fun, and Tera’s always a fun guest to come back to. Yeah. What about you, Georgia?

georgia: No I really, I enjoyed it. But I do [00:03:00] have to be honest, I’ve been at this conference and stuff, I haven’t been checking on any of the comments or anything.

joe: Yep

Nick: Can’t believe you.

georgia: I know.

Nick: Alex says yay me for licking rocks.

georgia: He encouraging you to lick rocks?

Nick: Yeah. ‘Cause rocks are cool looking. And if you lick the sand, it’s like licking, like, hundreds of rocks at the same time.

joe: Oh, boy. Let’s not, like… No,

let’s

georgia: That sounds horrible.

joe: That sounds boring. Yeah. Yeah, it does. That sounds like a

georgia: You were at

joe: a fun time

georgia: you were at the beach today.

Did you lick the sand there? I

Nick: was. Always. It just gets in your mouth sometimes- Well- … and you’re just like,

georgia: Yeah.

joe: All right. All right. That’s enough licking stuff. Don’t do

it.

Nick: Stop licking.

joe: Did get something from a past guest. It wasn’t the lab safety, it was from the Nazca Lines Lorena. She sent me an article about the Peru [00:04:00] geoglyphs and how there was a total destruction of the triple spiral pre-Hispanic geoglyph.

The figure is more than a thousand years old linked to water worship, and it was located within a protected archaeological zone in the north of the country. But unfortunately, it was destroyed, so

kind of sad.

georgia: horrible

Nick: Man,

that’s awful

georgia: I mean, here it’s been there for that many years, and then, I mean…

Nick: Humans come by and they’re like, “Oh, you know what?

joe: Yep

Nick: W- let’s just get rid of this.”

georgia: Ugh. Yeah, it’s heartbreaking

joe: and was protected, right? But it was just a bunch of illegal occupants that had built makeshift structures in the zone, and then, “Oh, we accidentally didn’t know,” but now it’s like, “Oh, we can put some pipelines in,” right?

So it’s kind of you know, since it’s gone now, oh, since it’s gone

georgia: that seems suspicious. Mm-hmm

joe: but yep. Yeah. So they’re investigating that and, was it all a big ruse? [00:05:00] But yeah, unfortunate. Very sad. So but it was

Nick: I hate when corporations do stuff like that. It’s just so shady

joe: Always nice to Hear from previous guests on episodes, but then it’s like, oh

georgia: And you don’t wanna hear something like that. No

Nick: we only want good things.

joe: That’s right. We’ll take the other things,

georgia: good news.

joe: Stay aware and stay curious, right? This type of thing came up and now I knew about the Nazca Lines and knew about the geoglyphs, so I was…

You know, when you see something like this, it makes you think about it, whereas before I might have just overlooked this article or, you know, if someone sent it, be like, “Yeah, okay.”

georgia: Yeah, right

joe: cool. Anything else? You guys wanna go on to the Science Holes?

Nick: I I messed up. I di- I didn’t read anything this week. It’s been a

joe: Oh boy.

Nick: I was very very much in planning stages with things.

joe: I know Georgia’s been at the [00:06:00] conference, so I do have three things maybe we could talk about. And two might be… Well, one’s probably related to the episode. It was people using new and unpredictable synthetic drugs to experiment on themselves in hopes of becoming free of addiction.

So this, there was a story in The New York Times about a woman who’s been struggling with addiction and, heard about this drug called SR-17018, and it was on Reddit. People were talking about it. It was synthesized in China and then sold online without any, a- approvals or shown to be safe for potential side effects or dosages.

So you just kinda get these compounds.

georgia: wrong?

joe: Yeah, right. That’s , the thing about it. But you have people on Reddit who are saying, “Oh, there was a 2019 study and it suggested it could [00:07:00] free drug addicted mice of their dependence on the drug. And so you have this woman she just goes by the name Becks in the article, kind of a chemistry hobbyist, a former biology major, in

georgia: Oh my God.

joe: And so she was writing a lot of stuff in her journal and talking about statistics, like 80,000 people died from drug overdoses in the United States in 2024, more than Americans died in the Vietnam War. So she was just really concerned that she was gonna,, wind up dying from her addiction And she was addicted to opioids. So she had a accident, and so that kind of, triggered her addiction. But you know, she struggled with that even in high school, college but this really was the thing. So she kept this diary, and she got the drug just say, call it SR, instead of SR17018, but I’ll refer to it [00:08:00] as SR as they did in the article.

And so she took it, a dose, measured it out, and then she felt really good. Day one, day two, she didn’t have any… The typical withdrawal symptoms, and so she just kinda thought this was working. And then,, she kinda kept recording. And then like day nine-ish, day eight or nine, she kinda started having anxiety and high blood pressure.

So she decided to skip a dose because she didn’t have medical insurance and didn’t wanna go to the hospital being uninsured. And so– And then, day 10, she completely relapsed and

then

georgia: many days?

joe: It was about 10 days.

georgia: Okay

joe: And then after that, she kind of just was spiraling and, she would take SR the drug, and that would ease the withdrawal symptoms.

And then she would just go on these benders, not only to opiate, but heroin, cocaine, and she kinda did this, for several months until she finally went to [00:09:00] rehab. And then through rehab, she finished the whole process.

And then about a year later now she’s relatively sober. She found a partner, fell in love moved to Europe, I think. And so she says that a lot of this, her lifestyle changed, so she only does, drugs maybe five times over this last bit of time. So that’s why I said relatively sober.

But she changed her environment, changed her diet, and like she said, had a lot of luck that she’s still there. And then in the article, the interviewer asked if she thinks SR helped, and she said, yeah, she thinks it did help her go through the rehab process. So really fascinating and,

Nick: I mean, that’s also really good to see someone make it out of there and

joe: yep

yep

Nick: successful

joe: But the, it, I don’t know if taking this SR was the right thing, right? ‘Cause it really didn’t help

her. She really…

georgia: I really don’t think you should

ever take something that you’re, [00:10:00] like, I don’t really get how you think taking a drug is gonna help. I mean, I know that there are drugs that help you…

joe: With withdrawal symptoms, yep. Mm-hmm

georgia: Yeah, and giving up other drugs. But just the thought of taking this totally unknown drug

joe: Well, there,

georgia: try to stop addiction

joe: a paper in 2019 on mice that it said it helped them with their withdrawal symptoms. So that’s the only study you have that

georgia: not enough

joe: Right. Right. Right. It has potential, right? And this is the thing we talked about in the episode, that a lot of the villains, they go from, it kinda works to let’s do it.

Like, there’s no testing or they don’t wait for that. They kinda are desperate. I mean, she’s desperate and, you know, it’s “I’m gonna die if I don’t do something.” And then you read, oh, here’s some examples. People are trying it. It seems to work. They have success stories.

I think you never think that probably you only see success stories because maybe the non-su- r-

yeah, [00:11:00] the non-successful stories, they might have died or not, journaled it. So that’s the problem. Without a peer review study, you don’t really know what the failures were and things like that, so.

But it is, it’s a growing problem that they’re now seeing, that you’re having these science to street pipeline for novel drugs

georgia: Reddit should not be your source of in- info on that.

joe: And he’s like like these these Chiney lab- Chinese labs are scouring science papers for these new discoveries and then pushing them out and building the hype.

Nick: Very cool

joe: Well, the other thing we had touched on, I think in the last mini. Losing track of which mini we talked about

Nick: a lot of minis. I don’t–

joe: they’re starting to build up. Yeah, but it’s nice that they’re building ’cause this shows…

But we were talking about sequencing and finding differences. I think, Georgia, we touched a little bit on forensics, like how do they tell between two people? And I said, “Oh, there’s this, there’s a lot of DNA that we have that don’t really code for [00:12:00] working proteins.” So proteins that we need all the time , and so those areas, can have mutations, and they mutate faster so that, that .01% difference between us humans, something like three million base pairs, it’s usually in those areas.

And so that’s what they sequence and look in these unique areas. And they usually call that “junk DNA” because it doesn’t play a role potentially. And so there was this paper just came out where they’re starting to classify these, junk, quote-unquote, genes, junk genes. And so there are about 20,000 genes that have been considered essential but these thousands of unclassified and ignored, junk DNA and dark proteins with unknown but potentially important roles in cells are being reclassified and studied .

Like, we don’t know what they do. We kind of consider them junk because they don’t seem to do anything in major [00:13:00] processes. And so in a lot of these genes that encode have been excluded from databases. So these tend to be very short in amino acid length. They lack evolutionary relatives in other organisms, which is probably why they’ve been omitted.

And so now they’re making an effort to include these thousands of molecules encoded by the human genome, and they gave it the name pep- peptidenins. And start including them in the major gene and protein databases as something that might have a role in biology.

So it’s interesting that you have these things, and we were just talking about these kind of areas in, that people don’t study or look at because,

georgia: I mean, and then that feels like pretty presumptuous to, I don’t know, is that the right word? To say, “Oh, these are junk.” Like, just ’cause you don’t really know what they do, you’re just assuming that they don’t do anything?

Nick: And that everyone else follows them with that [00:14:00] logic

joe: Yeah, and some of the junk DNA too is non-coding, so I don’t wanna say all the junk DNA is… Gonna be in these peptides. But they’re kinda picking out the stuff that potentially could code for a protein and going, “Oh, hey, this thing might be important.

Maybe someone should look at that.” But yeah that’s how it starts. You rethink about these things. But that’s… Science isn’t, you know, isn’t complete, this study also shows that, where we have a good idea of how we think things work, but we’re still learning how these systems, including us, our cells, work and , go together and make us who we are and what we are.

So I think that’s fascinating ‘ cause I think a lot of people think science is done. Like, you go to school, you learn a textbook pop, and then okay, that’s it. But, you know-

Nick: Wait, there’s more after that?

joe: There’s more after that, a lot more.

Nick: What? I’m shooketh

joe: So yeah, it’s [00:15:00] really cool. It’s kinda cool seeing studies like that and thinking about the implications, so… Yeah, and then the last one I had, which was pretty interesting, and we touched on we, in that episode but there was a trial to de-age cells. And so the first person is a company called Life Biosciences in Boston.

They are- got approval to treat their first participant. And the goal… The idea,, de-aging cells . Maybe we need to think maybe a episode might come out of this. But you wanna take a cell, and coax it back to make it seem like a younger cell?

And so can you-

Nick: respond as one as well,

joe: or

Nick: would it just look like

joe: that’s the idea. That’s, these are all the things that can you turn on certain genes to make the old cell behave as though it was young again? And the idea, if you can make it think it’s young [00:16:00] again, is then you can rejuvenate cells. In this case, they’re testing treatment for a certain form of glaucoma.

You know, glaucoma is an eye disease that can cause blindness. And so if they can rejuvenate the optic nerve, then cells, then that could actually help grow and form, healthier cells, regenerate the neurons because these neurons aren’t normally capable of regeneration.

So that’s the idea. Can we trick it and then nudge it think that the restorative features of the young cells and then, but not too far back. Like, you don’t wanna, you don’t wanna push it back to where it doesn’t know what kind of cell it should be, right? ‘Cause that’s the beginning of our cells, they were you know they didn’t know what they were, and then they, they get signals.

And okay, I’m an eye cell. I’m a nerve cell, optic nerve cell. So you you’re playing in that sweet spot where you want it younger so that it’s healthy and rejuvenating and regenerating, but not too far back. So- Yeah,

Nick: Yeah, you want like a 15 to 20 year gap.

joe: [00:17:00] Sure. And so it’s… Oh, go ahead. Yeah. Yeah.

georgia: No, I was just gonna say, yeah, I’d like a lot of my cells to

do that

joe: Yeah. That was something. So one, we touched on this in another mini is that they’re using a virus that they, it, that’s been used in gene therapy. I forget which study we talked about where they used a virus system to put in these three reprogramming genes into the retinal cells and that would then kind of function.

And what they’ve added a safety feature that the system, the genes are only switched on when the participant takes an antibiotic. And so if the antibiotic is stopped, then the genes all switch off. And so it’s this little control that they have built in. And to your point, Georgia, that was something that came up in this article was that, , when you’re modifying cells, are they truly younger and can they be reprogrammed to enhance longevity is also a larger question.

So these are, [00:18:00] and I think, Nick, you were touching on that also, that they don’t know. And then this is just focused on the eye, so also, you don’t wanna get too ahead, right? Because if, things like this, if it doesn’t work, then that could freak people out and then research dries up or money because it goes, “Well, that was a, you know, it didn’t work out.”

And if it works really well, then people are gonna get really crazy and go, “Oh, can we do this for the whole body and, this tissue?” So I think there’s some measured optimism, and I think they’re trying to expand it to, like, 12 people to really getting it. So

Nick: to do, go on.

joe: Yeah, so

Nick: I f- can already think of a few movies that are

joe: Mm-hmm.

Nick: this vein

joe: Yep. Aging in general is really fascinating, and I know we’ve talked about telomere length and other episodes it’s come up, so yeah. So as season four, I think we’ve been teasing it. We’re starting to think about it and,

Nick: We’re thinking about recording it.

joe: Yes, we’re thinking about a season four now. There’ll be… Oh, pretty sure there’ll be a season four, so . We’re-[00:19:00]

Nick: I think we were already greenlit, right?

joe: That’s right.

Yeah, we got it. We’re there. So, yeah, so that, those are my three science holes. I think they were really cool, and they were relevant to the the episode, which sometimes doesn’t always happen, but yeah. Yep, yep. So cool

georgia: Yeah.

joe: All right

Nick: of media have you guys been consuming lately?

georgia: Oh, that’s a good question.

I mean, I have a plethora of to-be-read books now. Yeah. And I’m super excited because one of my all-time favorite books is We Were Liars. I know I’ve brought it up before. And We Were Liars came out, about 10 years ago, and I read it then, and then there’s the Prime TV series, and I loved it so much.

I just love it. So I got to meet E. Lockhart at ALA, and I got [00:20:00] an advance copy of her new book- Okay, yeah … that’s in the same kind of universe. So, I was t- A- actually, I was trying to start reading it last night, but I was so tired. I did fall asleep ’cause I was just so tired. But I’m excited about getting to read that.

It’s called The Pools. And, yeah.

Nick: Very cool

joe: Very cool. And we finished watching Widow’s Bay, so that was really I don’t

georgia: so good

joe: I don’t

think we-

Nick: How many episodes are there for that?

joe: Eight, I think

Nick: Eight?

georgia: I think

Nick: so Okay. Then I as well finished it.

joe: Yeah. Yeah, it’s like

georgia: you didn’t realize it was the finale of the-

Nick: Well, it felt like it could keep going.

georgia: Yeah. And- Well, I, really hope they, I, well, I can’t remember. Did I read that they for

joe: I think season two is g- is green-lit, so I think that’s happening

Nick: Oh, wait. There’s 10 episodes,

joe: Oh, was there 10? Okay, sorry. We watched all of them. I don- I thought there was eight[00:21:00]

Nick: Oh, then I lied. I have two episodes left.

georgia: Yeah.

joe: See, that’s why it felt like it. It felt like there was a

solid conclusion, but it felt like they

could keep going on with the story. Mm-hmm.

georgia: Right, you could really feel like it could keep going, but it also gets pretty you know.

Nick: Like I, I figured it was gonna be

georgia: like-

Nick: There’s a climax … that’s where season two would be picked up, you know? Like it felt like- Yeah

all right, this is your your end. Oh.

georgia: Yeah.

Nick: Sorry, I didn’t mean to cut you off there, Joe.

joe: Sorry, didn’t mean to cut you off. No, you’re fine. The other thing we finished watching was Spider Noir, so that was, Oh my gosh, it’s so good

georgia: Oh my gosh, it’s so good. I can’t even tell you how good I think it is.

Nick: I have not finished it.

joe: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it was good. I

georgia: Are you enjoying it?

Nick: Yes and no. Like, it’s good. It’s not my favorite. It’s… I w- I would grade it as good.

georgia: Is that because-

Nick: Not

georgia: great … like, I think maybe because I almost don’t even think [00:22:00] of it as Spider-Man.

Does that make sense?

Nick: Yeah.

joe: Yeah

georgia: I think- Like, like of its own thing, I think it’s really good, and I love Nicolas Cage’s performance, and I really love the filming of it, the… And I I like the story, but I have to remind myself that it’s Spider-Man.

joe: Yeah.

Nick: And I keep wanting more of Spider-Man, and-

georgia: Yeah

Nick: it’s just, like, I don’t know. It… Oh, I’m gonna finish it. I just haven’t

joe: And I didn’t read that comic line, so it

was… I think one of the jarring things is that if you know the Spider-Man story, and some of them, and there’s a couple different universes, but they all have similar parallels.

But the Noir storyline was just… It’s so different than the traditional Sp- how Spider-Man became Spider-Man, and then some of the villains, how they became, who they are. So yeah, it was really… That was fascinating, so I think that’s where you get that, is this really a [00:23:00] Spider-Man or just kind of another superhero

movie?” …

Nick: it sort of feels like a knockoff

joe: right. Exactly, yes.

georgia: I guess the

joe: That’s a good way to put it in it, it looks great, and

Yeah. It’s a good story too. I mean, yeah, it’s, if you called it anything else, you would be like, “Oh, that’s a great superhero story,” and, but it’s like Spider-Man, right? It’s like you know?

georgia: Yeah. I don’t know. That’s interesting.

I didn’t read the comics s- at all either, so it’s like, do you feel like the comics of the Spider-Noir gave you more Spider-Man?

Nick: Yes.

georgia: Okay.

Nick: Yes, I

georgia: do. Okay.

Nick: And Georgia, I think you would enjoy those ones. I don’t know why.

georgia: Yeah. I feel like- I have to check those out

Nick: I guarantee at your local library they’ll have ’em.

joe: Yeah, right.

Nick: In a nice collection book.

joe: Yeah,

georgia: I will have to check that out. Yes.

joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm[00:24:00]

georgia: Maybe, or even on Hoopla

joe: Oh, and Hoopla definitely probably has it. Yeah, they have a lot of that stuff. Yeah. Speaking of books, I did read, Wrong Place Wrong Time. It was a really good thriller. A little bit of time displacement, it had this kind of l- a sci-fi-ish element to it, but it was really well done.

It was a good book, so. Gillian McAllister is the author, so yep. But

georgia: Yeah, I, and then kind of to that point was I did read a little bit of that book, and I just wasn’t in the right head space to read it because it does… He, she deals with, it’s a mother dealing with her teenage son, and I think it was just, like, in that way, just a little too hard for me to, read it.

And it, which is kind of like a play on words. It was the wrong time to

joe: wrong time, yep. [00:25:00]

Nick: Oh.

joe: So. Cool. How about you, Nick? What have you been up to watching, listening, playing?

Nick: I have recently beaten the la- latest Resident Evil game,

And I thoroughly enjoyed it. I think the ending Wasn’t trusting itself enough to do what it wanted to do, and so I think they held back on that.

joe: Yeah

Nick: But overall, I thought it was a great game.

joe: Oh.

Nick: But yeah. W- I just don’t wanna spoil the game

joe: right, right, ‘

right, right

Nick: I don’t know, someo- someone out there might be

joe: Might be playing it in the middle of it. Write Nick? Offline if you want more Okay. Apple

Nick: on Apple TV.

joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

Nick: We even we enjoyed that one. It was a good murder mystery. Kind of always feels like the game Clue. But yeah, [00:26:00] they they I haven’t started season two yet, but season one is yeah, that, that was good. We’re, I think we’re gonna start season two soon ’cause, it’s already available.

Might as well. But yeah, that I really haven’t been doing much. Been trying to do some new work on things. So i- if I can get it to work out the way I want it to, I’ll bring more information about it.

joe: Nice.

georgia: Intriguing.

joe: I know, right? A little teaser. Yeah. Cool.

georgia: All right.

joe: a few things. One, I will be at Shore Leave 46Con in Lancaster, PA, July 10th to the 12th. So come out if you are in that area and say hi. I’m giving a talk on what electron microscopy and cell biology can teach us about zombies.

So something to to come and hear

Nick: you see what I sent you about [00:27:00] zombies on Instagram?

You might need to watch that before going there.

Just for you.

joe: Okay. I’ll check it out and see what you sent me. So yeah, that’s going on, and then don’t forget, if you haven’t already, Georgia and Jim Siergey they have a noir calendar coming out. Pre-orders are up. We’ll get the link. It’s in the newsletter. But yeah, you can find that.

It’s gonna be really nice. Speaking of

noir

Nick: those pre-orders? Can-

georgia: Oh, they’re only $15. Oh,

Nick: wow. $15.

georgia: It’s g- yeah, like, it’s a wall calendar to put on your wall. It’s, like, full of art and- You can see all

Nick: the hottest artists.

georgia: Well, just the two of us artwork, but.

Nick: Okay, maybe I was wrong. You get just two of ’em.

joe: Cool. All right. Well, thought I’d just mention some of the [00:28:00] stuff we’re up to. And Nick’s got a secret project. Maybe he’ll be announcing that, so

Nick: Yeah, hopefully soon.

joe: Coolio.

Nick: cool

joe: All right, well, I think that’s a wrapper

georgia: All right

Nick: You got Joe.

joe: You do have, you, the, no one’s here, so I just feel like I’m floating in the ether. Yes, you have me, Joe.

Nick: You got Nick

georgia: And Georgia And

Georgia

joe: georgia

Nick: we went down some holes

joe: Some mini holes. . Stay safe. Don’t lick rocks. Stay

Nick: some rocks

georgia: Or sand

joe: Stay curious. Love y’all

Spider-Man’s villains are a case study of OSHA violations. We break down the science of lab safety, what goes wrong, and why fiction can’t stop Handwavium-ing the guardrails.

Substack, Apple, Spotify, YouTube, Amazon

Episode 72 Transcript

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In Episode 72 of Rabbit Hole of Research, Joe, Nick, Georgia, and Mary are joined by returning guest Tera Lavoie, PhD, cell biologist, electron microscopist, and the Advanced Electron Microscopy core facility’s lab safety director. This episode kicks off the 3 episode Spider-Man Villain Series, and we’re starting where it all goes wrong, the lab.

It turns out many of Spider-Man’s villains are a catastrophic series of safety procedure failures. Some intentional and some not, but could have been avoided with proper safety training. We dig into what actually makes a safe lab, why those guardrails exist, and the very real, and sometimes very dark, history behind modern research ethics. 

We also get into DIY biohackers, CRISPR self-experiments, the original Superman’s meteor rock ethics violation, prions, hantavirus, the Radium Girls, Madame Curie’s radioactive notebooks, and whether Nick can lick various elements from the periodic table.

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Pre-Order: Touch of Noir 2027 Wall Calendar —

12 months of all-original art by Jim and Georgia; pre-orders open now, with mailing expected in September

Joe will be at the Slay the Lake —

June 27th 3-8pm at SoundGrowler Brewery, Tinley Park, IL (This event will will benefit LGBT Books to Prisoners & Transgender Law Center)

---

Check out what the RHR crew is creating:

Joe:

• Named by the Guild Literary Complex as one of the 35 Writers to Watch!
• Red Line: Chicago Horror Stories Anthology featuring a story by Joe!
• Joe’s Sci-fi physiological thriller Novel: Will You Still Love Me If I Become Someone Else?
• Joe’s Rom-Com Novella: Tomorrow May Be Too Late
• Essay by Joe: From Beyond Press: Specific Knowledge: Jotham Austin, II, PhD on Transformations in Fiction

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Future Events to Hang with the Crew:

Podcast Cross-Appearances

• Joe on GoIndieNow: 21grams with Joe Compton talking about villains.
• RHR Crew on This Podcast Will Change Your Life with Ben Tanzer

Events & Conventions:

• Slay the Lake Chicago Pride Book Fest — Soundgrowler Brewing Co., Tinley Park, IL 60487 (June 27, 2026 12PM-5PM)
• Shore Leave 46 — Lancaster, PA (July 10-12, 2026)Lancaster Wyndham Resort and Convention Center
• Dragon Con — Atlanta, GA (September 3-7, 2026) – Joe attending as Professional

It’s Science for Weirdos

Want to support the show? Tell your friends. Follow us on social media, Discord, share the podcast, and let us know what topics you are excited about. Leave a Comment. And for email alerts sign-up for the Substack newsletter and never miss an episode, exciting updates or the bonus images we talk about on the episodes. 

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We want to Hear From You (leave a comment):

• Have you or would you participate in a clinical trial? 
• Do you think biohackers are bold pioneers pushing the boundaries of human potential, or walking lab safety violations? Where do you stand? Would you experiment on yourself?
• And the question we all need answered: Would YOU lick a rock for a superpower?

Drop your thoughts in the comments. We read them all, and your ideas often shape future episodes.

Leave a comment

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---

Future Episodes

Three Part Spider-Man Series continues to get ready for the new MCU Spider-Man: Brand New Day

• Episode 74 – Spider-Man Villain Series 2: Scorpion and the Other ChimerasGuest: Erin C. AnthonyThe crew explores the science of chimeras, genetic splicing, and what it would actually take to create Spider-Man’s most dangerous foes.
• Episode 76 – Spider-Man Villain Series 3: What His Villains Reveal About HimGuest: Comic YouTuber, Alex Hanes (@Hanes4Heroes)The conclusion of the Spider-Man trilogy takes a step back to ask what the science of his villains tells us about Spider-Man himself.

---

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Leave a comment

For more stuff (Images, Episode Highlights, events, etc), subscribe to our Substack newsletter!

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Show Notes & Fun facts 

Books and Comics Mentioned

• The Reign of the Superman (1933) — Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster’s original fanzine story, Science Fiction: The Advance Guard of Future Civilization, Issue 3
• Goodnight Lab (2017)— Chris Ferrie’s book recommended by Tera as an alternative to Goodnight Moon
• Guinea Pig Zero (2002)— An Anthology of the Journal for Human Research Subjects edited by Robert Helms, which documented the experiences of human medical test subjects. Mentioned by Mary 
• Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH (1971) — A children’s science fiction/fantasy book by Robert C. O’Brien, with illustrations by Zena Bernstein. Mentioned by Mary
• The Radium Girls: The Dark Story of America’s Shining Women — by Kate Moore, the true story of the Radium Girls

Films & TV Mentioned

• Jurassic Park (1993)
• The Fly (1986)
• Outbreak (1995)
• Contagion (2011)
• The Stand (miniseries, mid-1990s)
• 28 Days Later (2002)
• Pluribus (2025-)
• X-Files (1993-2018)
• Planet of the Apes (2011)— James Franco / John Lithgow version
• Honey, I Shrunk the Kids (1989)
• Gremlins (1984)
• The Martian (2015)
• Iron Man 3 (Extremis) (2013)
• A Brother From Another Planet (1984)
• Argo (2012)

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Fun Facts to Impress Your Friends With:

1. The first Class III biosafety cabinet was built in 1943 at Fort Detrick, Maryland during World War II biological warfare research, essentially because researchers kept getting sick and needed a box to work inside.
2. Madame Curie’s personal notebooks, lab equipment, and clothes are still so radioactive they are stored in lead-lined boxes, and will remain dangerously radioactive for another 1,600 years due to the half-life of radium-226. But they have been recently digitized, check it out here.
3. The axolotl, not the lizard, is the animal Dr. Curt Connors should have studied for limb regeneration. Unlike most reptiles, axolotls can fully regenerate entire limbs.
4. CRISPR gene editing kits are legal to purchase with no regulatory oversight. In 2017, former NASA scientist Josiah Zayner livestreamed himself injecting a CRISPR solution at a biotech conference in an attempt to edit his own muscle growth genes.
5. The FDA does not regulate most nutraceuticals, meaning the vitamins and supplements on store shelves may not contain what the label says, or in the amounts listed.
6. The Radium Girls were female factory workers who contracted radiation poisoning from painting radium self-luminous paint onto watch dials and hands. 
7. The Untreated Syphilis Study at Tuskegee — The U.S. Public Health Service (USPHS) Untreated Syphilis Study at Tuskegee was a study conducted between 1932 and 1972. Researchers did not collect informed consent from participants, or offer treatment, even after it was easily available. 

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Episode Highlights

• 00:00 — Basement Studio Roll Call: The full crew plus returning guest Tera Lavoie, PhD.
• 01:09 — Tera introduces herself: as a cell biologist, electron microscopist, and lab safety director who joked about working alongside Joe for 19 years.
• 03:54 — Curiosity And Lab Safety Monologue: Joe delivers the opening monologue on human curiosity, the guardrails of modern science, and a Jeff Goldblum quote.
• 05:41 — Spider-Man As Safety Violation: The crew breaks down how Peter Parker’s origin is itself a lab safety disaster.
• 09:54 — Safe Lab Basics And Rules: Tera walks through what actually makes a safe lab.
• 11:57 — Licking Rocks And Superman Origin: Joe talks about the original 1933 Superman story.
• 16:05 — Human Research Ethics Horror Stories: The crew covers the dark history behind modern research ethics including Nazi experiments, Tuskegee, Henrietta Lacks, and Project Sunshine.
• 21:55 — Do Safety Rules Hinder Science: Nick asks the scientists if lab safety regulations actually slow down discovery.
• 26:19 — Back To Spider-Man The Lizard: Dr. Curt Connors skipped animal trials and injected himself with an untested reptilian mutagen.
• 31:30 — DIY Biohackers Rise: Joe introduces the world of biohackers.
• 32:35 — CRISPR Self Experiments: Former NASA scientist Josiah Zayner livestreamed injecting himself with a CRISPR gene editing solution.
• 34:52 — Why IRBs Matter: Joe and Tera break down the Institutional Review Board — the ethics gatekeepers.
• 37:49 — Spider-Man Villain Logic: The crew compares biohackers to Spider-Man villains, smart, curious people who bypass institutional infrastructure and shortcut their way to catastrophe.
• 38:51 — Gene Therapy Cautionary Tales: Tera recounts the tragic story of Jesse Gelsinger.
• 46:25 — Biosafety Levels Explained: Joe walks through BSL-1 through BSL-4.
• 49:57 — BSL4 Suits And Movie Mistakes: The crew breaks down how most fictional labs are decorated like BSL-4 but operated like BSL-Zero.
• 52:32 — Real Lab Safety Culture: Tera and Joe share what real lab safety culture actually looks like day to day.
• 54:15 — Outbreaks, Hantavirus, And COVID: The crew discusses the hantavirus outbreak on a cruise ship and working with COVID in their facility during the pandemic.
• 56:54 — Prions And Weird Hazards: Tera explains prions — misfolded proteins that cause other proteins to misfold.
• 58:28 — Fictional Lab Safety Fails: From Gremlins to The Stand to Contagion, the crew runs through pop culture’s greatest lab safety disasters and the rare examples that actually got it right.
• 01:00:39 — Lab Bench Snack Talk: High school chemistry students melting Reese’s Pieces in beakers leads to a broader conversation about why food and drink have no place at the bench.
• 01:01:18 — The Stand Miniseries Pick: Mary makes a case for watching only the first episode of the mid-1990s Stand miniseries and calling it a day.
• 01:04:48 — Mythic Safety Fails: Joe traces fictional lab safety violations all the way back to the oldest cautionary tales in fiction.
• 01:06:32 — Can Nick Lick It: The crew runs through the periodic table testing which elements Nick can safely.
• 01:11:20 — Radium Girls: factory workers who licked their paint brushes to keep a fine tip while painting radium watch dials.
• 01:14:39 — Lab Safety Done Right: The X-Files is a rare example of fiction that actually handles quarantine and containment protocols with some degree of accuracy.
• 01:17:48 — Animal Facility Lockdowns: Joe and Tera explain why animal research facilities have become increasingly locked down and why letting research animals loose — as in 28 Days Later — is a genuine biosecurity nightmare.
• 01:21:04 — Curie Radioactive Legacy: How Madame Curie processed tons of pitchblende with bare hands, and the radioactive notebooks that still can’t be put on public display.
• 01:23:35 — Final Thoughts And Plugs: The crew wraps with a reminder that curiosity is good, peer review exists for a reason, so please be careful out there and don’t lick rocks.

“Stay curious, stay safe… Love Y’all!”

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Transcript

joe: [00:00:00] Hey Welcome back to the Rabbit Hole of Research down here in the Basement Studio. We are all crewed up down here. Even got a guest in studio.

nick: Everyone, every chair

is

joe: chair, every mic. This is the place to be. You’ve got me, Joe.

nick: Yeah, I got Nick.

You got Nick.

geo: Georgia.

joe: We’ve got Georgia.

mary: We got Mary. We’ve

joe: got Mary, and our very special guest.

tera: Tera You

joe: Tara, that’s it? Nothing either, right?

tera: It’s

nick: that up for the whole

tera: hello. Tera Tara, we’re happy

geo: to be like that.

nick: episode has to be like that.

I mean, but

joe: what’s your-

geo: You have to introduce

joe: and things like that in,

yeah …Well,

tera: everybody should know me if they’ve listened to the podcast

nick: been a guest before.

She

geo: a

joe: dun. No. Well, there may be someone-

tera: Oh, no But there

geo: be someone

tera: is true. I mean, God forbid you didn’t like Doctor Who and you skipped my

nick: you still come

tera: I might forgive you

mary: Who’s the best Doctor?

tera: Oh, it’s a… [00:01:00] Oh, it’s hard. Top three would be-

nick: If you don’t say Eccleston,

tera: nine, and 10.

mary: 10.

nick: Ten.

mary: All right. Right

joe: Heard it There and go.

back and listen to that episode. Yeah, Tara was a guest with us before, last season,

tera: Yeah.

joe: seasons

geo: But w- but

nick: two seasons

joe: know.

geo: we need your rundown again.

joe: So yeah,

tera: I’m Tera I’m a scientist. I am a cell biologist and electron microscopist. I get to see Joe five days a week at work, and he doesn’t hate me yet, so it’s great.

mary: All

joe: you’re, and you got a PhD.

I

tera: do have a PhD in molecular medicine.

joe: and in our facility- In-house-

tera: am the assistant director.

geo: And how long have you guys-

tera: I

am

joe: right? I mean, you

tera: safety

director.

geo: How- How long

tera: How long have you worked

geo: together?

nick: Officially

joe: worked

tera: or sort of worked in the lab worked? ‘Cause we’ve worked in the lab worked for, like, 19 years-

Wow … ’cause Joe was on my thesis committee.

joe: yeah. Mm-hmm.

tera: But we’ve worked… Actually, my [00:02:00] workiversary is coming up May 15th. It’ll be nine years.

geo: Wow. Nine years. Very

tera: Thank you.

mary: cheers. Here we go.

tera: to nine.

joe: Yay. Oh, you know what? We should’ve had the world’s second strongest beer.

mary: beer. Well,

geo: that’s okay.

mary: with that.

This one’s eight and a half. It’s fine. Yeah,

joe: this, um, Equilibrium.

mary: Mm-hmm. Equilibrium, very

joe: It

tera: to be able to drive home

yeah,

geo: that’s a good one … it has a very cool label and-

nick: And every cup in this studio is filled with it.

joe: Yes, that’s right. Yeah, well, and

today

tera: thank you. Ooh.

geo: We’re … Yeah,

mary: consistent.

We’re on

joe: We are consistent. Yeah. We’re gonna be

talking about, This is part one of the Spider-Man villain series.

Yes. And we’re gonna kick it off with lab safety- Woo

geo: Woo-hoo.

joe: important to the Spider-Man universe,

as we’ll see here.

geo: Oh, 100% … very qualified

joe: right. She is the

lab

tera: very

qualified to talk about lab safety. I am probably less qualified to talk about Spider-Man

villains.

joe: We

got it. We’ll,

nick: you covered,

joe: there.

tera: we

geo: got you covered, right, [00:03:00]

joe: we got

Nick. I’m a Spider-Man

fan. What’s a villain?

nick: I only know Spooderman.

joe: your favorite

tera: in the movies? Tom Holland ‘Cause that’s… Holland?

joe: All

nick: Hands

down.

tera: I agree.

nick: Yeah. He just brings the whole package of Spider-Man to the screen.

geo: I like Tom Holland.

joe: Yeah.

I I have nothing. I got no beef with him

geo: I was kind of sad I didn’t get invited to the wedding, but … Oh.

nick: Oh.

joe: Oh, you…

nick: I didn’t know you were holding out for that one. Right. You didn’t get your invite?

geo: I didn’t.

nick: M- did you check your spam?

joe: your spam? Yeah, right. That’s where it was at

tera: it was

geo: Anyway,

we digress.

joe: yeah.

Let me… Let’s get… Let me do my bit, and then we can,

nick: bit it up

joe: I go. So, yeah. So I do my little monologue, as everyone know if you’re just listening.

tera: It’s like I’m at work all over again.

nick: He does this all day,

doesn’t he? call me, does he? The let me start with the list.

I

joe: do have a list, though. I do have lists on this episode.

Us humans are curious creatures. We question, poke, and taste things. We [00:04:00] are drawn to picking up the weird rock, the strange mushroom, the glowing beetle, and we experience and discover the world through our senses. And that curiosity is the scientist in us all asking what would happen if. But isn’t there a saying about curiosity and a cat?

The warnings are baked into sayings and the oldest stories we tell, but we would ignore them every time because the wanting to know is louder than the warning. Modern research, laboratory safety, and regulations didn’t kill that instinct. It just built a system around it. Protocols, peer review, safety cabinets, training seminars, ethics boards, institutional reviews.

These are all guardrails around curiosity’s most dangerous quality, the compulsion to find out what happens next. But fiction tears all of that down. Because drama lives in the moment someone decides to handwavium the guardrails. Norman Osborn, Otto Octavius, Curt Connors skip straight [00:05:00] from what if to let’s find out.

And we love them for it because some part of us understands that impulse completely. Nick, don’t be licking those weird rocks. You

nick: I,

you were supposed to bring some

joe: the title of the- And as you explore the world, remember what Jeff Goldblum, the Rabbit Hole of Research Award winner, said in Jurassic Park, “They were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should.”

And curiosity killed the cat, but satisfaction, or should I say lab safety, brought it back.

nick: back. So I-

geo: did

joe: I- Or did it?

Or did it? Did…

geo: First off-

mary: I thought you were gonna talk about the other Jold- Jeff Goldblum … yeah.

nick: dad … Jeff Goldblum- Yes

geo: Okay, so without labs, with lab safety, we wouldn’t have Spider-Man, right?

joe: labs… With lab safety, we wouldn’t have Spider-Man, right? You’re absolutely right.

Spider-Man probably is the original lab safety violation comic. I mean, you know, it’s, so many things wrong and Tara and [00:06:00] I, she’ll… We go through so many trainings. So one, that class, they were all minors going through a lab. So there, there’s all sorts of, you know, kind of paperwork. Parents are notified A radioactive spiders were loose.

So now not only do you have poor animal management, which we’ll probably get into that, you also have radioactive kind of training. Like so that’s double. Two violations right there. Escaped experiment. No one noticed anything. No one reported anything. He just went home. He kinda slept it off.

No one told the parents. I mean, it was just really like,

nick: That’s because he doesn’t have parents, Joe I

joe: so or the a- or the aunt, right?

Well, I mean, it’s his parental supervisors, let’s say that,

Yeah. I mean- Yeah … but no one told all the other kids. I mean, how we know some of those other kids didn’t get bit by spiders if

nick: One of them did

joe: right?

Right. So yeah, so it’s-

nick: One of them did, and that was, Yeah

tera: So- At that point, you don’t know if anything was contagious human to human.

joe: Yeah. And so there’s trainings that we have that are required to work in a lab, and we complain about it ’cause they’re pretty much the same [00:07:00] every year after you do it the first time.

It’s just like refreshers. But you just get a ton of alerts, and it’s like, “Take your refresher. Take your refresher.” And that’s from everything from lab stuff to dealing with minors in, in, in

s- in spaces. In the case of working with minors. Right. Yep, so Yep.

tera: I was gonna say gun safety, but not quite gun

joe: safety. No, it’s the, um, the- ‘

nick: Cause You

guys use guns to

joe: shooter. Active shooter. yeah … active shooter.

nick: the cells, right? Yeah, we- Yeah. You guys are just sitting there-

tera: Well, our see if I can hit

actually does have a

joe: gun.

tera: Yeah.

nick: yeah.

joe: So no, that’s… So Spider-Man really set it up, and I think you have, Stan Lee, I don’t know if he knew that, but he really wrote cases for the scientific regulation and guardrail.

I think almost every villain in Spider-Man, I got a whole list of it. He is- Where are you going?

tera: perfect- Every scientist is a villain.

joe: villain. Yeah, right. Right. Well, there’s a few, but-

nick: but- … Mysterio isn’t a scientist, and he’s not-

geo: It’s the perfect setting for something like this

nick: Oh, yeah.

geo: Oh, yeah. You can explain away so many things,

tera: You know?

Yeah.

joe: But you have the Lizard, you have Electro, Sandman, Doctor Octopus, the Green Goblin, [00:08:00] Vulture. And Vulture was kind of stolen

alien tech. Yeah. But still it was, there was no regulation there. He was just doing some stuff in his garage.

mary: Can I share a sweet Spider-Man story?

joe: Sure.

mary: My nephew, when he was a little boy, he was, he had to have an MRI at one point, and he was very excited about this because he thought that this would give him special powers like Spider-Man.

geo: Spider-Man. That was me-

mary: He was very

nick: every time.

I had to go to the

geo: it’s like, “Stay really

nick: can I start

joe: can I

mary: now?

He was so into it ’cause he was thinking maybe through this, I don’t know. yeah.

joe: It’s My dad asked the same question. Sh- shout out

mary: out to my sweet nephew, Bridger. Yeah. Yeah.

geo: Yeah. Awe.

joe: Aw. Yeah. Yeah, Spider-Man, no, I think Spider-Man, it’s, that’s why we’re doing this series, ’cause I think he is one of the most The fame popular characters in comic book Absolutely maybe S- Superman,

nick: I think it goes

joe: Wonder Woman Right.

Yeah, I mean,

that would

be- … Batman. Yeah.

tera: Yeah, probably those three.

nick: Yeah.

joe: is in mine, okay. Yeah.

nick: in

pop culture-

geo: there been a vote?[00:09:00]

tera: Probably.

geo: we’ll have

mary: in the footages.

geo: edit.

nick: we’ll have it in the

joe: We’ll see how, w- the show

nick: me,

geo: they didn’t ask me, so.

Well, who’d you, who do you have? What’s your ranking? That

nick: with the face.

tera: That one

nick: other… I think it’s a woman,

tera: Oh, stop it.

nick: Oh, stop No fair. I have- It’s

tera: parents. I have-

Definitely the one without parents

Yeah.

geo: have

to say Wonder Woman.

joe: Wonder Woman?

geo: Yeah.

joe: See, she was involved in no lab safety incidences, so she was a

geo: right

was wonderful. ‘Cause she was from a very highly intelligent other planet, which was… Yeah. Planet? Planet,

joe: Planet, no.

No. Like the Amazon.

nick: Yeah.

geo: Oh. She was Amazonian. Earth.

joe: Yep. Like, it was like a isolated-

geo: Oh, yeah. That’s- … a land

mary: Thucydides or

joe: right here.

mary: So

I wanna bring this, I wanna sort of pivot a little bit, so I wanna tap into

joe: Please pivot.

Georgia’s like,

mary: wanna get the heck away from this.

joe: this.

mary: To pivot from, more from Spider-Man and Tim, back into your subject matter expertise, what is a safe [00:10:00] lab? What are some characteristics of a safe lab?

tera: A safe lab will have, will be clean.

nick: be clean. Mm-hmm.

joe: Mm-hmm. Clean.

tera: Will have no razor blades. That is probably the biggest thing we have to look for are rogue bla- razor

nick: Oh, so just not laying

around. That’s right, yeah. Is

So you’re saying my house is

tera: That is a thing.

joe: That is a a thing, like l- with razor blades laying around? Really? Interesting. Well, I mean,

geo: do you cut everything. Okay. do you have, like, a special box, like Sharps, like you do in the

tera: when you’re done, you’re supposed to put them in the sharps. Mm-hmm. But you shouldn’t leave them around, ’cause if someone doesn’t know that the razor blade’s there, then they’re gonna grab it and cut

mary: themselves.

Ooh, yeah.

geo: That,

nick: Ooh, man, I’d be a major problem.

joe: Labels?

nick: everything

Oh

tera: should be labeled appropriately.

If it’s flammable, it should be in a flammable cabinet. There’s only a certain amount that you can keep out of the flammable cabinet. Okay. Acids and bases should be separated and away from the flammable material. Mm-hmm. No food or

drink. No food or

No

joe: lot of- No

geo: no cosmetics.

joe: Yeah.[00:11:00]

nick: All right, so this is gonna sound weird.

tera: no shorts, no open-toed shoes.

nick: These all just sound like kitchen safety rules too.

tera: In a way. Okay. Except- Like- … you’re probably more apt to die in the lab than the kitchen.

nick: I

tera: not the

geo: you haven’t seen When Nick does it. He’s- it’s like, “Is it a challenge? Let’s do it. Let’s go.” Wild. I’ve

nick: had some really close calls, guys. I’ve had bacon grease just go down my arm. Perfectly fine,

though. Ah.

geo: You didn’t even have a scar.

tera: I feel like the biggest rule for Nick is-

mary: the the big rule for Nick.

nick: Nick-

tera: Don’t put it in your mouth

nick: No, that’s what you’re supposed to do

mary: Oh, no.

joe: Yep.

geo: no.

nick: Like- … as I said, you guys were supposed

tera: been warned about this

okay? You

mary: rocks

joe: know. He’s coming, so yeah.

But yeah, so many-

geo: be a special feature when we do video.

nick: it’ll be behind a paywall.

tera: There you go. If

joe: Hey. He doesn’t. If he’s no longer on the episodes, we have a new co-host, you know what happened.

nick: c- rock.

tera: gr-

mary: he’s grown superpowers.

But,

joe: and,

so I wanna be- hold on, I wanna take a little [00:12:00] step back, then we can come back.

But the rock bit actually stems from, I forget which episode. Oh. Oh.

nick: It

was

joe: I think the Telekinesis episode … telekinesis

one. I think that was

geo: one,

joe: But

what was interesting is I did all the research for that and I don’t think I forget the who was on that show with us, the guest, but it was, like, the original Superman.

And so Jerry Siegel, Joe Shuster when they were teenage boys, they created Superman eh, that we know. But the original Superman they created was a short story in a sci-fi zine called Science Fiction: The Advance Guard of Future Civilization, and they made it on their, , the high school copy machine in 1933.

, it was a zine, if you think of that. And Superman wasn’t this hero. He was this bald, telepathic villain that was going around,

like, getting his- way.

geo: point do we say that can’t be the

joe: And so, Right, it’s

not. ’cause and so the

thing

nick: set up Lex Luthor

joe: this this professor, the scientist, finds this meteor.

He analyzes it, and then he starts testing it on lab animals [00:13:00] with no regulation and sees these strange effects. And he goes, “You know what? I should test this on a human.” So this story in ’33, gotta remember, that’s Great Depression time, so he goes to a soup line and he offers some guy a suit and a meal if he will lick the rock or ingest it.

I did read it in the comics. It’s actually behind Tera

nick: tera

joe: And he goes and there was no consent that this rock could do something weird to you or just, he just mixes it. I think he m- he even mixed it in his food. It was like a whole weird

nick: was the hot

joe: like, “Yeah, right, a hot meal.”

geo: soup.

joe: then this guy, he gets the telepathic powers, and then he just goes around and he’s like, “I can dominate the world.”

And then the scientist is jealous ’cause he gave all of the rock, he used it all, and now he’s trying to make new, more. Well, maybe not

geo: smart.

joe: And yeah, and then he goes- Yeah … and so he, but he kills the scientist. And then the power wears off, and he needs more of the rock. But the

scientist is dead And he can’t

get it, and so he just, then he has to return to the breadline in a fancy suit.[00:14:00]

So that was the story.

nick: a fancy suit is the moral of the

story. He

joe: He might have sold it, like, to get the breadline. I don’t know. Right. So but that was the

original Superman story. You know what,

tera: when you first started telling this story Before the superpowers part came up, that could’ve been a real-life scenario.

Oh. No. Because sadly- Wow … that’s the other- Yeah … outside of the lab- Yeah … but human research and the horrors of

geo: Oh, yeah. There’s been a lot of,

mary: Well, Joe-

tera: I’m telling- … of even that, and so anytime you’re doing even human research, now you have even more trainings.

nick: even

joe: Here it is. I got The

Reign of the Superman.

I’m

mary: or- Okay, Joe- … a copy of it … yeah, Joe is holding-

joe: ’cause that’s, like, worth,

geo: He’s holding,

joe: The facsimile. I got a facsimile of

the

mary: a co- you’re holding a comic or- Yeah,

joe: it’s orig- it’s the zine that they had written-

mary: The, oh, the original zine that Siegel and Shuster did.

joe: regular, a re- a replica of that, that I found. It had that story, ’cause I didn’t believe it either. I think it was like, “Is that… Are you real?” I’m like, “Yeah, I did this research and this came up,” and no one talks [00:15:00] about this story which is kind of-

tera: Well,

geo: I think it’s good they went a different way.

joe: I, well, yes, they went-

you know,

with an immigrant

nick: don’t know. I think it would’ve been more, more

popular going this

joe: From another planet,

tera: planet. From another planet, right. Unlike-

joe: And no lab safety violations, it’s just … There’s some maybe adoption law violations, but other than that that’s,

know. I mean, if you’re coming from another planet, how many laws?

I mean, it’s like A Brother From Another Planet.

nick: from another planet. Where

mary: Where did he come How that.

joe: many people will get that?

nick: look at that. Tera It does it’s a movie.

You haven’t seen that?

geo: You haven’t seen that? No, I

joe: A treat. It’s it’s pretty good. I mean, it’s not… Yeah,

it’s-

tera: the only movie I’ve seen with the word brother in it might be Undercover Brother.

nick: the word brother

in

joe: Oh, okay. Any similarities? No. No. No. Brother From Another Planet isn’t a comedy. It has comedic bits, but it’s a social commentary for the most part, you know.

tera: When did it come out?

nick: [00:16:00] ’80s, I want to

mary: Maybe early ’90s. ’80s I think.

joe: Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. That feels right.

mary: right.

joe: But yeah,

Like Tera was saying, we have these kind of guidelines because human experimentation, , through time people, they do weird things. We have the Nazi medical experiments,

tera: Yep, the Tuskegee. The Tuskegee

joe: syphilis study. Mm-hmm. Henrietta Lacks her cancer cells.

The HeLa cells, which has kinda become the foundation of molecular biology in a lot of the studies we have. They were actually taken without her consent in the ’50s. Mm-hmm. So we do have… We have these instances where you put

geo: And I’m sure, I’m not trying to be

tera: to be,

geo: You know, pessimistic, but I’m sure it is still happening.

But not in an official, from like a university point of

joe: not, but I know Tara, she was telling me about the, building we work in, we’ve renovated a very historic space. Some people may notice University of Chicago had the first self-sustaining nuclear reaction- happen on campus underneath some football bleachers. Then they went to [00:17:00] what’s now Argonne National Labs. Reactor 1 was built, and they moved. On campus though, they built a new building the FMI Building, and in that building they put the first cyclotron, betalinear tron, gammatron, in the early ’50s.

And then Tara, I tell the story about this, but, about… And then Tara was like, “Oh, you know, I heard this program.” So-

tera: Yeah, I actually heard well, it was a YouTube video, but I listened to it like a podcast, about how they did all this study post-nuclear bomb about looking at radiation and they had to compare, like, what was in your bones.

But everybody was on the Earth, and depending on where you’re at, they can kinda measure, and if you die, they can take your bones and check. But they needed fresh bones, and so basically anybody who gave birth and the baby didn’t survive, they would take the baby, and they wouldn’t let the mother have the baby or see the baby.

They would cut off the legs and send it to someone, and they had these mass graves.

mary: Oh,

tera: called it Project Sunshine. It was

nick: crazy. I

[00:18:00] love the name of that. That’s- Like, it just it is-

joe: on top of these- You would know …

tera: It’s e- and- and- Oh

nick: feel like I have, but

like-

mary: Hang

on for a second. Okay, go,

tera: please. Yeah … a lot of women, like, finally were told what happened to their babies’

mary: Oh, my God

tera: and where the locations of the mass graves were so they could finally go and pay respects. Yeah, sure. Like-

geo: And when was this?

tera: this? Probably late ‘

joe: 50s,

’50s, yeah. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

nick: The amount of mass graves that the world has from just shitty people-

tera: Yes

so many.

joe: Well, yep.

geo: yeah. Like,

nick: we won’t go into that ’cause that’s a history podcast right there. But yes, they are just the amount.

tera: the intersection of in the name of science, I’m sure, is bigger than we would like to admit. I mean,

nick: take solace in knowing that it’s not as big as the stuff done in the name of religion that have mass graves. Yeah. Like that one, yeah. [00:19:00] Yeah.

geo: And

joe: Or in

the name of I’m right,

and you’re wrong.”

geo: wrong. The name

nick: of-

Well, I have a lot of those

ones too, Joe.

geo: A name, In

the name of

senseless- Yeah … leaders thinking that they’re… Anyway, okay.

joe: Let’s pivot back to, yeah

nick: I do have a

joe: and the macabre really

fast here. I don’t know what’s going on. Science. Science. Let’s get

nick: Science,

morbid,

joe: and

death.

geo: death related to

mary: to science. But what, but but also why th- why we have all of these why safeguards are in place for when you have human subjects is because of if we, if you don’t, then you have s- things like this

tera: And it’s so easy to take advantage of people. Like, when you look at like children, very important to be able to do research on children, but very difficult because they’re not able to usually make their own decisions.

mary: Yeah, they can’t consent.

People-

joe: People

in prison,

tera: prison, another very he- heavily regulated because now you’re kinda holding an advantage over them, and they’ll [00:20:00] take- Right … whatever they can get, and you’re- Yeah,

nick: you hold their life over them being

geo: like- Mm-hmm

nick: Yeah … “Well, you could get a reduced sentence, but you have to go through these-” Right …

you

know- really

terrible

joe: things. Right. That was, like, the Tu- the Tuskegee kind of experiment. So, I was gonna say, yeah, people in p- poor economic situations. So the Superman, the Reign of Superman, that, that’s an example

nick: a very fitting-

joe: Right. Right. Also,

geo: also, not just hard science, but, like, psychological studies. I mean, think about

joe: the- That’s true

geo: the, was it, what’s his name? S- Stanford.

nick: Oh, you’re not going with the

geo: Yeah, the one where you have to give someone a shock, and then you keep giving it, increasing it.

And they didn’t actually shock the person, but the person

joe: thought they were Right.

That’s right. They were being shocked. Right. Right …

geo: That kind of thing is, like, all

joe: Psychological kind of

geo: laughable … all these traumatic,

tera: yep.

geo: No,

nick: It’s not the one I was thinking of.

joe: are you thinking? Are

geo: you thinking of

nick: the- The Stanford Prison Experiment.

joe: Was one was that?

that?

nick: That’s the one where they divided the students up,

tera: So- Oh, yep, yep

you had

nick: prison [00:21:00] guards. You guys are prisoners.” Yeah. And

joe: they all consented to that, right? I mean, was they were

nick: I think

joe: so.

18 or… I mean, they were, right, college kids. They weren’t, like, high s- Lord of the Flies kind

geo: but they had s- They…

It feels like they did do that in, like, elementary schools and stuff. Like, they had people pick because of eye color, what

joe: that was, but that was a teacher. But I think that experiment was a teacher explaining discrimination, and she separated them blue eye, blue eye and brown eye or black.

It was

like some- Yeah, no, same Yeah When you exclude people based on some arbitrary phenotypic feature that it’s not fair, and you feel it there. So it was an example. You’re right, it’s… That’s a psychological experiment. I think you still need rules, and there are rules about that.

But Injecting someone with radioactive materials to see where… Or bio- a pathogen to see how they respond, but mental stress is also a stress, so I don’t wanna discount that. Mm-hmm. But you’re absolutely right.

geo: But yeah, you’re right then.

Mm-hmm.

nick: So question for the two scientists in the room. Do you guys feel [00:22:00] that lab safety, it hinders at all or no?

joe: I’m

gonna go no. Yeah. I think that I- like I said, the protocols are in place. So if you have an experiment that you need to do that involves patients humans, animals of any sort of animal you have to then, go and get protocols

approved.

Um-

tera: why you’re taking that specific subject over a…

geo: right

over a- A different-

tera: only word I’m thinking is lesser, you have a hierarchy. You know, m- a mouse versus a

joe: Yeah, right

nick: Yeah, right … Mm-hmm

tera: versus

a human. Like, as you go up to the more complex, you have to justify why you can’t do it in a simpler organism. Why do you need an animal versus a cell?

joe: animal versus a cell? Mm-hmm. Yeah. The IACUC, the institutional animal ca- IACUC. There it is. Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee. And so, the three Rs replacement, reduction, refinement. So replacement, as Tara was saying, is can you use a different model besides an animal?

Reduction. Use the [00:23:00] fewest animals possible. Like, don’t… We need thousands, and you really can do it with a few. Mm-hmm. And then refinement. Minimize the pain and distress, right? So y- through anesthesia-

Exactly … and housing and things like that. Right. And sample size, all that stuff becomes important.

So, you know, the big one was, like, cosmetic testing. Yes. I think there was a lot in the ’80s and ’90s. That

was a big

tera: they still do it in China. It’s one of those things ’cause I’m also very into beauty YouTube if you can’t tell from my eyeshadow, sorry users. She

mary: It shows a gorgeous

joe: pictures. We’ll have that on the-

mary: It’s very

joe: we’re in studio.

mary: Yeah. Eyes.

tera: And

a lot of especially independent brands are vegan and so no testing on animals, and you can’t sell in China because China regulations, and I think they’re slowly changing, but they require to do their own animal testing before they’ll allow you to sell in China.

joe: in China.

nick: Interesting.

joe: Interesting.

geo: that’s because they’re afraid something would affect…

I mean,

yeah. Yeah.

nick: if you’re gonna sell an eyeshadow and you need to put it in the eye of a rabbit, [00:24:00] then maybe you don’t need to be selling that eyeshadow, if you can’t test it on a person.

geo: Yeah.

joe: I think also too it’s about-

industrial,

Regulations.

Right. And if you’re a little loose on that, can ingredients sneak in that are harmful to humans? And so if you know this happens- … in your, country, then you go, “We need this test done.”

We need it. “Right, because we need to make sure your processing, your manufacturing is really good.” It’s something we take for granted here in America that we are at a point where all these guardrails, and people complain about it. Yeah. But they do actually-

geo: I don’t know, but then- They do more than you, you think …

joe: they do more than you, you

geo: right now … then other countries,

mary: They’re probably being dismantled

geo: I think they do more in some areas. Yeah But look at food.

joe: why I said we take

it for granted

because- we

geo: all kinds of crap in our food- Yeah … that other countries won’t. So,

mary: Paula Poundstone has a little bit in her routine. Paula Poundstone, she’s a comedian.

nick: Oh.

joe: Oh.

tera: And,

mary: you know,

where the cosmetic, where, [00:25:00] “Caution, eye irritant.”

Well, yeah What isn’t an eye irritant? I mean, seriously

geo: an eye irritant

mary: is an eye… Whenever you say caution, eye ir- it’s, yeah, you put cosmetics in some poor animal’s eye, of course it’s gonna hurt. Well, yeah. You know? I mean, ’cause it hurt, …

tera: this eyeshadow on my eye- Yeah

says, “Not for use around eyes”- … on the packaging because the US and the FDA won’t, the FDA won’t pay to test more eye pigments. Mm-hmm. And so they have certain eye pigments, especially pinks and reds, that are banned for use here around the eye, but are perfectly safe in the EU ’cause they’ve been tested.

Okay. And so they have to say it’s a, not an eyeshadow, but a pressed pigment that is not safe for use around eyes so that- you use it as you want. Use it as you want.

joe: Wait, So

nick: wait, So

joe: it, but the US

doesn’t. Right. Because the US

nick: The EU approves it, but the US doesn’t because the US doesn’t wanna spend the money to do it. Correct. So that-

tera: bothers me And [00:26:00] they won’t use the EU’s- Like-

research, or maybe they don’t have access I don’t know. But they have to,

nick: louise.

mary: put ’em…

tera: They, yeah, so they need the testing to make it legal, but they won’t pay. They say that the companies have to pay.

joe: Yeah. Yeah,

mary: Yeah.

geo: To pay. Yeah.

nick: That’s a red

joe: So I’ma, I wanna I’ma touch back. We can get back in the real world, but I’ma go Spider-Man.

geo: We can get back to eyeshadow.

joe: wanna cover a few- I, like I said, a couple lists, but this is the, maybe the villains.

I mentioned a few already. But let’s just go through some. The Lizard, Dr. Curt Connors. He was trying to regenerate his arm. And decided

geo: a doctor?

joe: He was a PhD scientist in a lab. Did his trainings, but he ignored them all obviously. And he was trying limb regeneration and thought you could take a reptile and use their regenerative abilities.

I, I think there’s a little faulty science. I think we [00:27:00] touched on this in another episode. He probably picked the wrong animal to try this with. But there was no institutional review, no animal trials. He just injected himself with some sort of mutagen, and

nick: I thought he did have animal trials, and that’s why he was- confident in

joe: I don’t think he did.

I think it was slim. It was very scant trials.

geo: We may have

nick: we also don’t get the whole backstory

geo: we might have to do

nick: everything he’s done,

joe: still- Pretty sure … It’s very, in most labs, it’s, you don’t just go from animal trial to injecting yourself.

nick: So is it illegal to inject yourself?

joe: It’s not necessarily illegal.

geo: it’s yourself. I

joe: But you are

tera: But you are an N of one.

joe: Yes, that’s right. Yeah. Well-

tera: And you might be dead.

joe: yep.

nick: But, like, if it’s, if you’re already on the brink of, like, dying and you’re like, “I need to test this,” ’cause what,

joe: But he wasn’t dying. He

just- I know, even wanted to regenerate his arm.

I mean, that’s a very… Couldn’t use the prosthetic thing, the little hook. You know,

he couldn’t…

I mean, people-

geo: more advanced things

joe: I’m just [00:28:00] saying that he

nick: when it

tera: when they

wrote that, they did not

joe: Potentially,

tera: I don’t know,

geo: year was that?

joe: I think when Dr.

Connors came online. Early villain. He was, yeah. I mean, he was one of the earlier

ones. Yeah.

geo: probably had something other than the hook.

nick: than the hook. A wood pan?

joe: You know,

tera: if hooks are good enough for a pirate, they’re good enough for him.

mary: good enough for him.

Thank you.

geo: him. We wouldn’t have Lizard Man,

tera: wouldn’t have

joe: Man.

tera: Man. Oh, right. So question for someone who is more into the movies of Marvel and not into the comics, this sounds almost similar to Extremis.

joe: to Extremis.

1963. Nice. Yep.

tera: Yeah. Is that kind of similar to, like, the Iron Man 3, Extremis

joe: regenerating-

Yeah,

I think he was trying gene editing in 1963. You can imagine the state of gene ed. There was no CRISPR. Yeah. There wasn’t really… DNA was just being understood.

So this was really fascinating in what you could do with it. And like I said the science is a little wrong. I mean, reptiles can. They have some regenerative properties, but a axolotl would have probably [00:29:00] been the better pick because they truly can regenerate full limb-limbs.

geo: I see a new super villain coming.

joe: Axolotl man or

woman.

tera: Yeah,

geo: and that would be so

nick: The Axolotl.

tera: Axolotl.

Axo Man. They

nick: have axes. And his sidekick, Lot

joe: Axo. Hey, we need

tera: Lotl Boy. Like

joe: a little flappy face thing.

nick: aren’t really good with the axes, so they end up chopping off their own limbs.

But they can regenerate them. It’s

a really- Can

joe: off and throw them at people.

nick: God, I would love

to

joe: You could do it. There we go. So we need to like– Yeah, we got a lot of ideas on these podcasts.

nick: lot of ideas on this podcast.

geo: this podcast. Somebody write- Yeah … take a note. Take

joe: but

I mean, I, I’m just gonna… I’m trying to point out the scientific lab safety regulations. Like, the way he got to injecting himself, it was… That’s not the way. You just don’t inject untested mutagens into yourself, no matter how desperate

you

geo: not advised. A

joe: should– I mean, it’s, there’s kind of regulation about self-doctoring yourself. If you’re [00:30:00] a doc- like a physician and things like that, in clinical settings or lab settings, there are rules around you prescribing medicine to your… All sorts of things like that because you?

can get desperate and- Well, that’s… Yeah. No, it’s

tera: your name on the prescription- Right … and your name on the to

geo: I guess that

joe: prescription. So Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. Someone

looks at it.

geo: could be a problem.

joe: Who is

tera: And now it’s all digital, so it’s literally coming from you, for you.

joe: Yeah. Right. So yeah, so there are– these things are in place to stop that because you are desperate.

You do wanna try something. You think you have something that’s meaningful. We can look at, once again, Jeff Goldblum in The Fly. Ooh. That’s

mary: That’s right.

nick: I

joe: right. I

geo: that is.

joe: that movie. Yeah Hey.

yeah. And trying to test, he was desperate to prove his technology worked, and he got into the pod after, you know, doing what he was doing.

And

mary: himself, by the way. So yeah, that’s a

joe: no one else. And so like- uh, that’s the other thing. A lot of times in labs, you’re not supposed to be there by yourself. Like, [00:31:00] you’re supposed to have a partner or people know you’re there, or you are staying by yourself and what are you gonna be doing exactly, checking in.

So these are the kind of rules and things that are in place to stop that kind of thing. But I digress a little bit because Jeff Goldblum. But, Yeah.

tera: I mean, and to be fair,

th- this- Yeah. In a real-life setting, how many people do you think are just injecting themselves with

joe: something Right.

I don’t think it

tera: a lot.

Right? Yeah. Yeah. Well,

joe: oh

tera: I

mean, maybe if you’re doing clinical research- Like- … but if you’re in the lab.

joe: So I was gonna, I b- th- nice jumping around here and then

nick: a fly’s jumping around here. So many

holes to

joe: a while … biohackers. So biohackers are one of these things where you have PhD scientists non-PhD kind of citizen scientists who are taking it upon themselves to improve their bodies.

And so you have people like grinders they’re inject- implanting magnets, RFID chips, LEDs under their skin. [00:32:00] harmless to some extent. This body modification, like kind of extreme body modifications to the more DIY biology folks, optimizing diet, supplements, sleep kind of aids.

And, they’re trying to improve their health and, but they’re trying to hack how they work all the way to probably the more serious and more concerning, when I was reading, and I didn’t think about it, but gene editing and CRISPR. You can buy CRISPR kits. There’s no regulation. Like, if you just wanna order one, you can get a CRISPR kit.

You can start-

nick: We’re gonna keep the

link in the bio, right? Or in the footnotes, right? That’s right. Terror your logs.

joe: this person, 2017, Josiah Zayner, he was a former and NASA scientist injecting himself with CRISPR gene editing solution at a biotech conference- Yeah … on a live stream. He was attempting to edit his muscle growth genes.

You know, no clinical trial, no IRB, no follow-up protocols. But then he later came out and said he regretted doing that because he didn’t want other people to try it-

’cause someone could get hurt. [00:33:00] But he has publicly said he wants to be the first person to give himself a superpower. So I’m sorry, Nick, I know you say that a lot on the podcast, but he got there first, so.

Yeah. 12,

geo: you still have time … And

joe: and then

in

nick: open that box. …

joe: you had Trey, Aaron Traywick. He was a biohacker, hacker COO, CEO who injected himself on stage, once again, with a unapproved herpes treatment. He did die shortly after, but in, it was unrelated.

tera: I mean, nothing like calling yourself out o- on stage.

geo: calling

nick: on stage.

geo: on stage.

joe: I mean, that’s more like dying from like a stage

geo: but yeah,

nick: Yeah,

joe: But yeah but this stuff you can have these garage lab setups and they work outside of the regulatory framework. So you have people here who were scientists or science affiliated, probably did trainings and all this.

NASA, I don’t know if he was a biologist. So you have this, engineers, safety is a little different. Like, there are different trainings for people. How do you handle that? Biosafety levels, we n- we probably will [00:34:00] touch on that in a little bit. But you have this whole thing where you don’t have sterile, containment,

No contain- no secondary containment if something goes wrong.

No regulatory kind of protocols in place. But yeah, can you

tera: no sterility of-

joe: Right … your

tera: you’re injecting yourself with.

joe: yourself

nick: So there is a chance that t- they are, there are people out there still experimenting on just random folks. Well,

tera: there were the CRISPR babies. For

joe: themselves, right? I mean, yeah, or the CR- The CRISPR-

right.

tera: Yeah. The CRISPR the scientist who, oh- China, right? Yeah, I think it was, I was trying not to pick on China, so I didn’t wanna say it ’cause I wasn’t sure.

But yeah, he he gene edited to, for certain traits, correct?

joe: Yeah, that was it. Right. Yep. Huge.

nick: Oh, Tara, I just got an email. Jesus. It said that you’re uninvited to China.

joe: said

that you’re uninvited to China.

Yeah. Your visa’s not been

approved.

tera: It’s been revoked.

joe: I threw around IRB, like, and no one here said, “What is IRB?” But that’s the Institutional Review Board, just wanna make sure.

So you have these, [00:35:00] like, ethics gatekeepers that review your protocol. So you write up what you’re gonna do. I’m gonna inject Nick with X, Y, Z, you know, gene editing- Here’s his new- … solution. Nick thinks it’s cool.

and then…

nick: they… don’t care what- The- … Michelle says

tera: committee- They

joe: And then the committee-

tera: says Michelle says it’s not.

joe: the committee… A- and so the whole thing, a committee reviews that. So they go and they look at it, and they go, “Well, what is Nick’s…” You know, they go through all the levels- Which coffee

do you like? … especially if it’s federal funding you have, they have to approve it. They review the science, they review the

tera: the

whole peer review that Joe was talking about to make sure it’s up and up

nick: Do they have to, like, do a mental stability check to see if they’re in the right of mind,

joe: or- Well, they’re checking if the research is ethical- Well- … and, right?

So

tera: but there are regulations on, you know, if you’re in treatment for major mental instabilities, you can’t consent to be a subject.

nick: So, like- someone that has dementia wouldn’t be able to-[00:36:00]

tera: Now, it gets tricky, because if it’s a specific dementia medication, then their next, you know- Okay

their power of attorney

joe: or right, the, the person responsible for

tera: be able to sign, kind of like children. But it has to be very specific, very well planned out, because that person is incapacitated in even more of a way than the average

joe: person.

nick: ‘Cause I was thinking of the Planet of the Apes film with James Franco and John Lithgo- Lith- Lithgow

Lithgow, where Franco was a scientist who was doing

geo: on- Mm-hmm. Which

joe: of the Apes is this?

nick: the Apes was this? This

joe: Oh, the n- the new ones?

the, Yeah, okay. the new ones … Okay. I

nick: With James Franco and John Lithgow. Yeah.

joe: John Lithgow is of age. He could’ve been in one of the many Planet of the Apes you know, Planet of the Apes, Meet the Planet of the Apes, so I was just wondering was he back then or was he more- Recent

tera: It

geo: It was fairly recent.

joe: John Lithgow, right?

geo: Right? I mean- It wasn’t the most No. It was- It was the first one that they started for the new

the r- right, right, the first of the more recent.

Yeah. Yeah.

joe: Louise,[00:37:00]

geo: Trying to

nick: Yeah. Are

joe: You’re trying to get on John Lithgow’s Christmas card list or something?

nick: Yes, I am. He’s a young- John Lithgow … vibrant man. He’s a- he’s old,

joe: ancient. I’m just saying that- … he could’ve been in one of the Planet of the Apes adjacent movies. They went into, like, the ’80s, all those… I mean, it was, like, eight or nine of them, so-

nick: There were

joe: so many …

nick: Now there’s so many more.

joe: There are

nick: I

love them. Hayley, what

joe: what

was- your point?

tera: What was

Did you have a point?

Yeah.

nick: So

he-

tera: ended up-

nick: Franco ended up,

joe: so- So

anyway,

nick: testing the drug on his father without-

joe: Oh, right. Yeah, the memory- Without his

tera: his father? Yeah.

Yes.

Yes. Yeah.

geo: yes.

joe: Young and vibrant, hey? Yes.

tera: Hey, Dad.

joe: Hey, Dad.

nick: were the same age.

joe: same dude.

Frankel was, like, alive. Hey, Dad, I really need, I need the TRITA-SLD to see if we can get you some fat foot.

Yeah, I was gonna, I was gonna say, I had a note in my notes here that biohackers probably are the version of Spider-Man villains. You know, they’re not [00:38:00] necessarily evil to start. Oh, yeah. They’re not stupid. They’re really smart people. They… And they’re curious people, and they have tools.

But they just ignore all the institutional infrastructure and kind of go outside the system to get to their own means and try to shortcut it and then,

geo: But then they-

nick: say

tera: would say

they also have major

joe: That’s right, yeah.

E- except I think in… Oh, go ahead.

geo: Oh, no. Sorry.

joe: No, I was gonna say, just finish that thought.

I think in the comics, they get superpowers and become villains, and they get angry because they feel they’ve been wronged- … by the thing that they’ve done to themselves. But I think in real life you probably just die a painful, horrible death. So let’s not do it.

nick: Wow, you really just dampened that mood. I’m

joe: I know, I’m gonna get, I’m, I’m-

nick: Louise. I

can’t wait till they

joe: we’re not getting biohacker sponsors. We’re not getting- Yeah. The Biohackers … Inc. At the

nick: a

geo: guest.

tera: it’s one of those things you really have to be careful.

When they first started with, , gene therapy and Jesse Gelsinger, , they had all sorts of research to try to use v- an adenovirus to edit your [00:39:00] genes, and this poor- What happened? I’d say kid, but I he might have been an adult, barely, but, died a painful death because it just went bad, and they halted it for a long time.

And really, CRISPR’s the big up and coming for gene editing again because nobody wanted to touch it ’cause they had jumped in so fast and- Mm-hmm …

it was just horrible.

joe: We just talked in the mini about the lentivirus-

nick: Oh, yeah

joe: gene editing for sickle cell anemia- Mm-hmm … they have for bone marrow. So that was, you know, you’re right. The virus models, that was supposed to be the next big gene editing, editing thing. But yeah, it had a slow start.

mary: Did anybody here ever read the zine Guinea Pig Zero?

joe: No.

mary: No. This was a while ago, but yeah, this he you know, wrote a zine about his ex- his adventures in participating in human clini- clinical trials.

joe: Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah. I think I’ve heard about people. I mean, you can make a good…

You can almost make a living doing clinical trials.

like-

if you … really say whatever- I actually did- one … you can- We did that They’re, [00:40:00] I mean- Yeah.

some of them pay really well, like the sleep study ones, and they’re not invasive. You’re not gonna die, but they go somewhere and you sleep for a while and-

tera: veins. I was supposed to have IVs in both sides when I was young. As a technician, st- signed up for, like, a four-night stay in the hospital. They wouldn’t take me.

mary: Oh.

joe: Yeah. Yeah, but there… I remember I read a story. I don’t know if it was- the same

person, but I’ve read stories where you make 40, 50K a year just doing studies, like going around and signing up and saying, “Yeah, you need, you wanna strap some electrodes to my head and watch me sleep, go for it.”

Speaking of electrodes Electro, Max Dillon. Yeah. He was electrocuted while working in the power lines during this lightning storm, and this whole thing

and-

geo: that’s not really lab safety.

joe: Well, I

geo: might be workplace safety.

nick: you’re saying

joe: OSHA

Yeah.

But yeah, so

tera: But

joe: mean- Typically

Nick is thinking about

nick: So the, I mean, they have different iterations of Max, where some of them he is in a lab where, he [00:41:00] falls into something and- Right

a pit, and others he’s that. But yeah,

joe: Yeah. He was alone. He was kind of-

nick: like he’s

joe: I feel like he’s always alone

yeah, he’s always alone. He’s… That was the big thing I had. He’s alone. He has nobody. He’s doing something seriously dangerous, and it’s “You know, I’m just gonna do it by myself,”

it’s me versus the world kind of thing.

nick: gonna stop

joe: Who’s gonna stop me? Right. Who’s gonna stop me?

nick: I don’t wanna have to come back tomorrow. Yeah.

joe: Yep. And there’s some lightning, and then he gets all these electrical

nick: these, electrical- … Cardiac

joe: arrests and lightning, he gets the whole thing, and then he’s he’s like a biological capacitor essentially. And falling in pits. Sandman- Yeah

fell into a particle accelerator.

nick: Which I think they had a fun part in the last Spider-Man movie- Yeah … where Sandman and Electro were talking about, “Oh yeah, you really gotta watch where you

step.” I mean,

joe: Yeah. I mean,

the thing about it and it was, he

nick: they both fall

joe: running from police. Like if you’ve been to Argonne…

I mean, I don’t know if, I mean, people listening has been to Argonne, but there are so many

nick: Wait, where that movie takes place? [00:42:00]

joe: Which movie? Which movie? Oh, the one with Keanu Reeves and,

nick: No,

geo: was at U Chicago.

joe: Yeah, that was at U Chicago. Yeah. With Keanu Reeves and Morgan Freeman. I

nick: it was,

joe: What was that? called? Ben Affleck. Ben

nick: Yeah, Ben Aflax.

geo: Is

tera: Is that the new sponsor? Aflac. Yeah, Ben Aflack’s.

joe: gonna

nick: Aflax. He actually sponsors us because he’s sponsored by Aflax.

joe: know where Oh, yeah I don’t know I don’t know what’s happening now

nick: licking

geo: funny.

nick: rocks,

joe: Nick was licking rocks, and so now he’s a,

he’s

in a

different dimension We

tera: children.

Please don’t lick rocks.

geo: lick

nick: you lick rocks

joe: you- You gotta call Ben Afflax

nick: With Ben

joe: us

nick: Aflax.

tera: for…

joe: You, you- but yeah, if you go there, it’s staffed. There’s big red buzzers. You’re not allowed when the doors close, things like that. –

tera: You’re not allowed to run …yeah. You’re

joe: from police. You’re not falling into anything. And so yeah, it’s a very weird , thing there, so. But you have, like, Green Goblin, Norman.

You know, he did testing on himself. [00:43:00] Self-administers solutions. He you know, he has… He’s, he was

nick: But he- …psychologically unstable

he did have other people in the lab with him.

joe: He did, but I mean, he was also the funder of the research, so no one was gonna

stop him. He was tied to the-

tera: of interest

geo: I

mary: I think

joe: do you got pictures of?

nick: of- Nothing. Ar- Argo is what I was

joe: Oh. Argo. Oh.

nick: Ben Affleck.

tera: Affleck Argo

geo: That was at Argo?

tera: the same

nick: I realize that now.

geo: Oh.

joe: quite the same. No. No, it wasn’t. It was the other mo- It was the one, I can’t think of the name of it. Cold Fusion?

Yeah. Was that it? Cold Fusion? I

think that’s it right.

there. It was… Yeah, don’t watch it,

people. It’s really bad. Yeah. it’s like I think

geo: got Keanu, but yeah.

tera: Wait,

was

joe: Morgan Freeman

tera: at U Chicago,

joe: Yeah, he was a scientist. Him

and Morgan

tera: did he film- I think he- At

joe: it was. Yeah, it was

tera: outside Man, I

joe: It was

like, south side of Chic- it was, like, an offsite lab, and so they were there and…

But

it was in- But they were

already seen at U Chicago … yeah. They destroyed

Hyde Park, I think. Like, it went, nuclear and just-

geo: Yeah.

nick: I’m not trying to knock Keanu, but [00:44:00] I don’t ever see him as a scientist.

joe: as a scientist.

tera: Oh.

nick: Like- Whoa

mary: No, definitely not.

nick: He’s not…

I like him.

He’s just- Yeah,

he was

geo: I

joe: doctor in As Good as It Gets,

right? Seemed like- No, uh, no. a

geo: He was that in the ’90s though? No, it wasn’t it wasn’t As Good as It Gets. It was the other one. Not

tera: as handsome as in

joe: was…

tera: It wasn’t As Good As It Gets.

geo: Oh, yeah. Something’s Gotta Give?

joe: Yeah. Yeah.

Well

geo: was- I was gonna say, it seems like a lot of the villains in Spider-Man, they get more villainous as they go on, right? I mean, they, it seems like they were more like a balanced human being, but then as they have these powers,

nick: Yeah, they have m- a little bit more of a psychological break

where- you

geo: see them go, “Oh, maybe I should rethink this,”

tera: Georgia, think about it.

In order to inject yourself with something or to do that, you’re probably already close to that psychological break. And so it just pushes you to the

joe: edge. It’s either accidental, like Nick was joking- Yeah … you fall into

something- Or you’re- …Or you’re doing something …experimenting … or Spider-Man accid- it was [00:45:00] accidental. True Like, it wasn’t your fault. Now, you didn’t intentionally plan on-

Getting bitten encountering a poor lab safety. So they fell into or wandered into a poor lab safety situation. Or you were desperate in some, or mentally unstable, and just decided at some point, you know what, the hubris of it and your ego gotten away and you said, “I’m, this works. I’ve tested it.” Like you were, we were talking earlier about Dr.

Connor. “Yo this worked. I tested a few things. I’ma go for it. I’m just gonna go. I can’t wait another day with my

nick: I’ll get the approval once they can see that it’s worked.

tera: Yeah.

joe: And my money. It’s like, Honey, I Shrunk the Kids. I mean, he’s building a shrink ray machine in his, attic or whatever, so

it’s,

geo: or the

joe: anyone, yeah. watch it My miniature wife.

tera: Yeah. That looks good.

nick: Oh, yeah.

geo: Yeah, don’t leave their little shrinking device- Right … just in your kitchen for somebody to

joe: plot device. If I wanna, write a good story or have a good show, I’m gonna mix the [00:46:00] shrink material in Nick’s hand putty so that No, put

tera: No, just put it on a

joe: that’s,

yeah.

nick: rock. Yeah. Leave it- “Hey, Nick, you want a suit?” Yeah. “

Yeah, I’d love a suit.”

joe: and a loaf of bread.

tera: Yeah.

joe: Some artisanal

tera: And a little bit of soup to go with that.

geo: so what are some of your favorite

joe: of cheese to go with that. What are some of your favorite lab accidents? Favorite

nick: or fake?

mary: Or just, like, ones that really- It- Not like, “Yay,” but like- Before

joe: we touch on that, are you guys familiar with the biosafety levels? ‘Cause some of this is what we talk about.

So

bio- Low, moderate,

high.

nick: high. Really, really- So no

tera: two,

joe: three, and four … yeah. really? low, scary. I was close. Yeah. So,

so you

nick: I had four of them.

joe: So I just want… Because it was interesting, ’cause this was all… I mean, the first kind of idea of even biosafety levels was back in World War II biological warfare research at Fort Detrick in Maryland where they created some of the first Class III biosafety cabinets in 1943 because they were working with [00:47:00] this, and they said, “You know what?

We need to work inside a box because this is kind of dangerous.” And then in the Asilomar Conferences in 1975, that kind of brought this kind of attention to biotechnology as it expanded into kind of start, the start of molecular techniques, and it was like, we need to actually regulate this. And then in 1984 was the NIH published the first edition of Biosafety in Microbiology and Biomedical Laboratories, and that defined four kind of safety levels. Safety level one, BSL1, you’ll hear referred to, is a basic lab. There’s a wet bench.

geo: what is your lab? Low

joe: risk.

tera: Two.

joe: We are technically a two. I’ll get there. Harmless E. coli strains and protections would be lab coat, gloves, hand washing, open benches.

tera: No

joe: goggles? BSL2. Not, yeah not that I saw.

I guess you could have goggles, but… And two, moderate hazard hepatitis B, salmonella restricted access, biohazard signage, [00:48:00] biosafety cabinets and for pr- procedures generating aerosols goggles would come in here.

tera: All gene editing would

be

joe: BSL2.

tera: a BSL-2

nick: editing

mary: at least- BSL- … a BSL-2. Mm-hmm.

tera: Oh,

geo: Even though you could just buy it

joe: buy it. Buy

it in your garage.

Probably.

nick: its way to my house

joe: know. Nick’s like- “Do

not enter my garage. This is a BSL-2 facility. Thank you.”

nick: Don’t worry, I have lab

joe: goggles. He’s like, “I’ve listened to the

episode-” Yeah,

geo: some

joe: several times.

It’s just like a kitchen. BSL three.

nick: is

joe: Serious potentially lethal agents, so TB, West Nile virus, SARS.

You need negative air pressure rooms, respiratory protection, decontamination of all waste, two door entries, so you’re cleaning in, out.

tera: Tightly regulated. Tightly regulated. Not everybody has access.

joe: cards. And then BSL-4 is the highest level. Deadly, no treatment at all.

Ebola- Well, un-treatment, like

tera: treatment. Like, it’s, it’s- Yeah … if some- When Ebola first happened it was BSL-4 [00:49:00] because they didn’t know what it was, they didn’t know how it was transmitted, they just knew people died. I think

joe: I think it’s still B- BSL-4, yeah. Yeah. I think

tera: But I’m just saying, like, that’s how things start. Yeah. Mm-hmm. If it’s that deadly- Wait, was, was- … it can be a

nick: So is that, was it found in a lab or was it-

tera: it… Ebola?

nick: Yeah. No. So y- you said that would be under that condition, right?

tera: Yes.

joe: Ebola, yes, and Marburg. Yep, Marburg. And they were studying

it. Marburg

And they were

geo: it.

nick: Okay. That’s what… Like, they were actively looking

joe: bring it into the lab to study

tera: for it or looking at it?

nick: At it, for it.

tera: were trying to- ‘Cause they weren’t looking for it

They were Looking at

it. They were looking at it because people were dying. Right.

So So they were trying

geo: to figure out what it

tera: anything emerging at first is probably, it’s going to be a three or a four.

joe: Yeah. Yeah.

nick: Okay. So-

mary: the safeties?

tera: on how- So what

nick: On current events-

The hundred- … as of when we’re recording

tera: this.

mary: this.

nick: What’s that virus?

tera: I was gonna bring that up. Yep. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Let

joe: me… I just wanna go through- The hot zone virus?

Before… Hold on. Pin that, because in the BSL-4, [00:50:00] full body pressurized suits. If your suit is damaged, pressurized air forces outward, preventing any inward contamination. So it’s complete isolated facilities, full shower, out

protocols. That’s from

geo: Hoffman in Outbreak, right?

Outbreak

joe: which poor lab safety because of the centrifuge scene.

Oh, yeah. that’s how it

spread. They got this deadly… They were kind of loosey-goosey with it. It should’ve been immediately a BSL three, four level. But they were in there with their technicians,

goofing- Two … yeah. the,

mary: z- The centrifuge. Yeah.

joe: it w- didn’t stop, and they tried to stop it ’cause they were being rushed, and then it, they get splattered.

And then they don’t say anything. I mean, you get splattered with blood contaminant generally you usually fill out a form or something like that, and you move forward. But here they did not. And so yeah, that led to the outbreak. But right, that’s where you’ll see it. In most movies and stuff they have BSL-4 agents, but they work like it’s a BSL zero.

nick: You know who also has really bad

lab

joe: it’s got,

nick: Yeah. Plubris. Oh, yeah. Oh, [00:51:00] that’s a

great example.

Plubris,

joe: The, uh, P-

geo: And then they’re like, euh, they’re licking.

tera: Oh, yeah. Oh,

nick: Pluribus. Plurbus? I thought it was

joe: Pluribus

tera: I was gonna bring that up, too.

geo: the

mary: Pluribus is one. You

tera: can say it by letter … yeah, at the very

joe: I say blada

tera: I was thinking about it this morning. I’m like, “What was…” I’m Googling. Mm-hmm. What was the- “What movie or show had bad lab safety where they pass the virus by kissing?”

joe: Whoa.

nick: I think that was a hole research after dark. show.

tera: It was-

joe: is. What’d you get on your list? Oh, you got a

geo: we wa- Nothing … we wanna Nothing oh. Was it- We wanna

tera: Contagion is the only thing that came up Well,

geo: Contagion, I did think of Contagion ’cause w- she was at, she worked in a lab,

joe: But there was no… I don’t think there was no poor… Actually, it was a really good movie, and there was no

poor lab safety. The pig ran loose Um, The-

geo: was the sushi chef

joe: The restaurant in-

And

geo: animal. It was transmitted through an animal and then- It was

joe: virus, yep, that, that jumped. So it was [00:52:00] probably a flu that jumped, and they were at the restaurant, and the pork was poorly cooked. Like Nick said, like in a kitchen. You know, BSL-4. I ne- I- Yeah

nick: I’m gonna go on record saying I never got anyone

sick. And

geo: I- That’s

joe: you

nick: My kitchen safety-

joe: have not started a pandemic is what you’re saying? Exactly.

nick: My

kitchen safety was top tier.

joe: How many days without starting a pandemic?

mary: How many days

tera: It

nick: days without hurting

tera: in his household.

nick: was always really low.

joe: But yeah, no. Contagion was that.

But yeah, kissing.

Oh, that’s a good

geo: have a thing in your lab, like however many days since an accident?

nick: accident?

Without- That’s awesome … contamination?

joe: really had no

accidents. yeah.

tera: We’ve… I mean, we had

nick: I don’t think they wanna

discuss that. We had a few.

geo: used properly. But

tera: I

geo: I’m thinking of the actual

tera: nitrogen and accidentally

joe: gotta say what PPE is Uh, personal pro-

nick: Yeah,

tera: protective-

joe: Yeah, equipment. Yep. Mm-hmm. PPE? PPE.

tera: I figure after the pandemic, everybody

knows what PPE is.

joe: It’s a PPE

[00:53:00] thing

tera: You down with PPE? I think, I think-

joe: actual- Yeah, you know me.

It’s that with PPE . Every- Is that

nick: my PPE. Is this-

tera: whole

joe: though that you have

geo: actual thing? They- There’s no PPE. Is that- Is that an actual thing,

tera: No.

geo: you have to have a

tera: No.

geo: No. No. No.

nick: What? There’s

tera: think in some

joe: no s- That’s, yeah. I think it’s like workplaces. The, I can see the

safety.

tera: think- … total haughty derision. No.

joe: the In

some

workplaces. I

nick: I think that’s more warehouses and

joe: I

geo: gonna say I think in some workplaces they

joe: that. Our safety inspector comes in- And the food

where is your sign at? Monsters Inc., Monsters Inc. Joe,

tera: Monsters. You, Joe, we failed. Mm-hmm. We don’t have our

nick: our

tera: No, the signs we have to have are, “No food and drink allowed in this refrigerator.”

joe: That

is.

one. Or microwave. Or microwave or- Yeah …where the eye washes are at, how often they’re tested

so that they, you know,

tera: tested

nick: Labeled everything. Yada.

joe: And

tera: And other things get tested that we don’t. Like, we have the shower, and they test that once a year. They make sure the flow in the safety cabinets are- Mm-hmm … up to par once a year.

nick: to par [00:54:00] once a year.

Mm-hmm. So back to my question.

joe: Oh, what

tera: Which one?

joe: You did ask a few questions. I

nick: know. I had a lot.

geo: That’s all

joe: That’s all right. We’ll get to

nick: the new virus that’s

joe: Oh,

geo: yeah, on the

nick: that be

tera: Which new virus are

geo: the cruise ship.

tera: On the cruise. The

joe: The hantavirus? The hantavirus, yeah.

tera: That’s not new.

nick: Well, it’s new to me. It’s in

joe: to them. Yeah. It’s a

nick: It’s

geo: It’s in

nick: I’m not someone that’s like, “What are these

tera: The new outbreak of the

joe: virus. yeah. Yes. Yeah.

geo: currently being s-

tera: In another lifetime, I would’ve been one of those virus cowboys going out and studying the outbreaks. Oh,

nick: could

still be that. Yeah. No one’s stopping you.

joe: I’m a cowboy. I wanna steal a horse I ride.

nick: is that gonna be, like, a higher level or no?

tera: So they know more about it, although this gets interesting ’cause I just saw today that this is the version that actually can be transmitted between people.

joe: There– I mean, they were trying to decide that because they were saying it might have been a couple that came on, and then they [00:55:00] spread it.

tera: it.

‘Cause normally it’s through rats. It’s through

joe: feces and urine, most strains. But there are a couple that can be passed, and they don’t pass… They’re not transmitted human to human. But this one they thought might be, but it’s still-

tera: don’t know if it’s aerosolized, if it’s- Yeah …

like, something like smallpox, for instance, is, like- Very

crazy contagious.

nick: So what lab safety is this gonna be under?

geo: Oh, four. Wouldn’t that-

joe: Yeah,

probably Three. Yeah. That’s four times.

tera: But they understand it. It’s not unknown.

Oh, okay. All right.

It’s not, it’s, I don’t think the death rate is as severe as- No … Ebola. I mean,

joe: like,

geo: Could be a game, guess the safety level.

joe: Yep. Or even COVID. I mean, you think the cruise ships with COVID. I think everyone on the ship got COVID eventually. Well, they

didn’t clarify

geo: as?

tera: it

joe: it’s interesting ’cause we had conversations about all that, ’cause we had some imaging- Oh,

mary: a good

tera: I think if you, like, true reproductive COVID was

joe: Yeah … it’s a three.

If you’re actively growing it in cells to study its replication, it became a three. But if you were just studying, like, the [00:56:00] spike protein or kind of non– You’re not actively growing it, you just have some in a tube that,

it became a

tera: It was a two

joe: just

geo: So you coulda had it in your lab?

tera: We did.

You did

geo: have it in your lab. We had it. Oh. Okay.

joe: Yeah,

mary: Oh.

joe: did. Oh. Yeah, we did. Yeah.

nick: So how…

joe: There was some work we did during the pandemic. We were in there. We

weren’t wearing the main labs, but

geo: letter, and it got all like worn.

joe: It’s hanging on the

wall. The– It’s right there on the wall in the studio, basement studio.

geo: That means

nick: I

tera: to have the letter because Joe had to come down with COVID himself. yeah. And so then I had to go into the lab instead of him.

joe: then I was like, “You need to go check on equipment and

projects that were going.” Yeah.

geo: right?

It was called an

joe: yeah,

it was an essential. I had to go in

and

tera: so essential for once in my

joe: life.

mary: No, I went, I had, I had

joe: No, I went. I got– I had to go in and, yeah, anything that needed to be loaded or, and, yeah, samples. Meetings, a lot of meetings with safety and how we should handle these samples as they came in. Okay. And we work with other people with BSL2. We haven’t worked with anything BSL3, but we’ve, , I’ve worked with mouse prion samples.

tera: Would [00:57:00] human prions be three?

joe: Oh, maybe almost four. I don’t know. Yeah,

you’re

nick: can you

geo: you a

nick: what that

geo: right?

tera: a prion is? a

mary: humans

geo: think

that makes you a zombie. Kind of prions. Yeah, that’s

joe: Yeah, and

the prions, that is there.

tera: the most common one if you hear mad cow. It’s, like, a misfolded protein that can cause other proteins to misfold, so it almost, like, is contagious in a way. And if it’s in your brain, then it takes over and damages that part of the brain.

joe: So that’s what mad cow was. It was a prion. And they’re really– They’re interesting because why do they cause the other proteins to misfold?

And there’s no cure.

tera: No. And so in a way it’s like con- a contagious protein.

mary: protein. Mm-hmm. The, it’s because- Yeah … sp-

tera: really freak- It’s only two?

joe: But sometimes three.

tera: Wow.

joe: they go two or three. G- I think if you’re like in other species, mouse, ’cause they don’t jump, so, or that we know of. But yeah, so yeah.

Yep,

tera: yeah. Yeah, there are things that I’m surprised are only two.

joe: No there’s all sorts of weird stuff, like, somehow like a one of the flesh-eating bacteria strains, and it was like, oh [00:58:00] yeah, this is a… And I, I started working with something, they were like, “Oh, yeah, this is flesh-eating.” What? Oh, time out. What are we doing here?

tera: But then you have a

yeast that just you’ve put something in there so it just makes less of one protein, and that’s also a two because you’ve genetically modified it.

mary: Oh, I see. Okay.

joe: genetically modified it. Oh, I see. Okay. What do you bring up? The Plubris Pl- Pluribus

Pluribus. Plubus? Pluribus. Oh, really?

nick: Pluribus.

geo: so we won’t know.

joe: Pluribus. That’s right. Let’s say it really quick.

mary: Pluribus.

joe: but yeah, but they had a BSL-4 scene in there. They started it the right.

It looked like They were doing

tera: going- But then they did a terrible job, yeah.

joe: punctured herself, and then it was a whole… It was like, I’m gonna take you out of containment as you’re having some sort of disease episode.

Now, generally, you wouldn’t do that because you know once you take that person out, you would then contaminate every… You know, you could potentially start an outbreak.

So it was really- the

nick: What they

did …I

geo: was gonna say The Stand is a-

joe: In The Stand,

tera: …but

at the same time, they were under very strict guidelines.

If [00:59:00] this happened, you do not leave.

joe: They could not leave. Well, that was the green light. Yeah. The sniffer. And so that was, yeah, if you haven’t read The Stand, and it’s older than 20 years, so- No, but

geo: No, but don’t spoil this.

nick: beginning.

tera: but yeah. Well, I

haven’t finished it. It was a little-

It’s a

little- much for me. I had to step away, but the beginning

joe: but yeah, so Stand was poor. But it wasn’t the lab safety protocols. I think The Stand points

tera: out that- … everyone around the

joe: if you have the best lab safety protocols, if one or one person- Well, I think- … breaks containment

of something very- I think

geo: back to human error- That’s right

you know? Or human stupidity,

joe: Or human

tera: Well-

geo: or I mean, you might just like…

joe: Yeah.

geo: You know

what I mean,

tera: be fair- You know,

you- … his thought was, “I wanna save my family. Crap’s going down.” Right. “I need to get out of here and get my family out of here.”

Right. That’s it. But

that- You

joe: and get my family- That’s right

out of here. Yep. Yep. Right. Definitely. Well, you had the, well, you had the nurse also at the facility, and they had the signs that if you feel sick, right, that you should say, you should report it. So she was a trained professional and had a little [01:00:00] sniffle, and they said, “Oh, this is seasonal allergies,” and didn’t report.

So the whole CDC

tera: I had

joe: went down, right.

nick: Was it from him?

tera: No, I felt like seasonal allergies, and it was COVID.

mary: Yeah.

nick: Yeah.

geo: Well,

I wanna say what it wasn’t really a lab, but one that I find super funny ’cause we talked about it in the Gremlins.

nick: the Gremlins.

geo: Remember the high school science lab, and he’s

joe: sandwich All right, yeah.

That’s right, he’s got his sandwich there. He’s doing an experiment. He’s got the… And yeah, we had a whole conversation. We did the Gremlin episode with Chris Guzman who’s gonna be back for ET. He’s coming back to talk

nick: you- Man, you’re doing spoilers already?

joe: am.

tera: I’m dropping spoilers.

BT. Do

joe: you

follow us along.

geo: It’s a teaser

joe: I know,

nick: even recorded yet. Well, we

joe: I really can’t

spoil it, but yeah. But yeah, we did talk about that scene with the science teacher, and he had his sandwich, and he’s doing the

geo: just

joe: experiments. He had a sandwich. But yeah, then he’s got his sandwich.

He just sits… So you should not eat at the bench while you’re doing,

tera: when I was in high school- … the guys would go in the [01:01:00] back chemistry lab, grab a beaker, take their Reese’s Pieces- Mm-hmm … put them in the beaker, melt them- and then chip them apart and eat them out of the beaker.

nick: them out of the

beaker. Oh yeah.

joe: do that …They

tera: have

superpowers right

joe: they could. They could

be there, Nick. They could’ve beat you there.

geo: other way.

joe: the other way. Yes, that… Right, they could not be,

mary: not be. Before we move too far away from The Stand, I… Well, I read a long time ago, but the… Did anyone ever see the miniseries that came out somewhere in the mid-’90s?

joe: I think we started, but I have not.

geo: The…

mary: Well, you

joe: read the book many times, so.

mary: can s-

Well, sorry, guys, but you can, whoever’s involved in this, but you can skip the o- everything after the first episode because the first episode- That’s good

is

nick: an

endorsement.

tera: Yes,

joe: watch the

geo: But- But definitely

joe: we’re going. If you haven’t watched it-

mary: here, let me- No.

geo: Watch the first

joe: first

episode and the last, and you got

nick: it. Let

geo: Mary finish.

mary: the love of God.[01:02:00]

joe: Jesus Christ. Okay.

mary: Jesus Christ. Okay. Anyway, but it’s cool because for the for two hours it’s you know, you have the massive container breach, and you got the guy that’s

like,

he sees all the stuff going down in the lab, and he’s like, “F this, I’m leaving.”

And, he s- sneaks out of the gates and causes this worldwide… And some people are getting sick, and the very end of that first episode is the scariest scene in the whole thing because all this time, one of our characters is being monitored in this lab that is, looks like BSL 10 or something.

You, you know what I mean? Everything is s- completely locked down. And at the very end, I’m not spoiling anything because this is part of the miniseries.

geo: And it’s only the first

nick: And how many episodes are there? There’s

mary: four, and y- and you can miss all but two, three, and four. But the first…

And then at the very end, the doctor that’s been very very scared of this [01:03:00] guy because, he was exposed and he’s totally fine, and then the doctor walks in and

very obviously sick, and he has something behind his back, and he’s just smiling. You know?

And he’s just… Oh, so scary. Oh, my gosh. It’s good stuff. But, because at that point, like, all pretense of lab safety and containment and, “We need to study you,” and everyone’s gone. It’s just our main character and this doctor who’s getting ready to j- to drop. But, ooh, it’s so…

Ugh. Anyway, d- treat yourself. Just treat it like a whole movie. Right. Right. And just watch that one episode, and you can skip everything else ’cause it’s good stuff.

geo: And then you can read the book. Yeah. But you gotta, like, allow for some time.

joe: it.

Yeats.

mary: It is it is a bit of a doorstop.

Yeah. And

joe: in The Stand, the one military guy who’s making decisions and realizes that the containment, this super- Mm-hmm … this bioweapon has breached. He [01:04:00] was talking about his daughter gave him a book, and he goes, “Have you ever read the Yeats?”

It

mary: Center Cannot Hold.

joe: Yeah. Right, yeah. So that’s right, yeah.

mary: Mm-hmm. you know,

joe: you know, this guy Yeats.

geo: guy Yeats. Anyway.

joe: But yeah I

geo: have

joe: I have a few, you know, kind of,

nick: Joe, did you ever get to your list?

geo: Yes, he’s been going through the list. I have

joe: haven’t

nick: that what he’s been doing?

joe: haven’t got to a list.

I have a couple

lists.

geo: listening and like- I

joe: a list of villains, ’cause this is the Spider-Man villain. Did I miss… I think I hit all the villains. If there’s any you wanna go over. They all breached safety and- No. Handwavium

nick: was experimented on, wasn’t

joe: he, but by someone else though, right?

Yeah. So, right. Yeah.

nick: for by J. That’s right. Yep. So yeah. So that was consent issue.

Know- Yeah … he

joe: up and did it, taken advantage

of.

nick: he definitely wasn’t in his right mind at all.

joe: I was gonna say some of the earliest maybe lab safety in fiction. Mm-hmm.

I was gonna say Icarus.

tera: Oh. Yeah. He tried to build- Oh, yeah

mary: yeah. Oh, yeah.

joe: Feathers and [01:05:00] wax.

He didn’t really test it and- Oh, Daedalus …You know?

uh, Daedalus? Daedalus. That’s right.

Builds the wings of wax and didn’t test it. There was no trials. No. He just kind of take,

you know …

tera: they were trying to escape, so I mean-

joe: saying.

tera: Have lab to test. It was-

nick: Now or never. Yeah.

joe: Prometheus Took fire, didn’t understand it. Dangerous technologies, right? That’s a whole, that is a, that’s still a when someone’s doing something, you know, that goes, and that leads right to Frankenstein, right?

That’s in

the title, right? So you have it and, you know, there was

geo: no- Mm-hmm. A lot of, lot of- The

joe: mother of science

fiction there … Oh, Mary Shelley. And, um, You go through

nick: There weren’t any lab safety

joe: There was no laughter right then.

nick: they

were, no-

purely in the clear. And

joe: we talked about that in episode one, how they would- Yeah … they would take cadavers and just take it into the parlor, and you would try to, they were trying to revive the cadavers.

And it was like a show. Like, you would just have this, the cadaver-

geo: the

joe: and it would go,

right. And it was a whole… Yeah. And at, and Mary Shelley, they [01:06:00] said, had got inspired ’cause she would go to these performances some, nice Sunday afternoon, and we’re gonna see if they can revive the criminal that just got hung and see what happens.

And yeah,

nick: If they revive him, they hang him again.

joe: That is what they s- that is, did we… Yep. Mm-hmm. That they made laws- Yeah … that if they came back to life, what do we do? Well, we hang them again. We kill them again. So yeah, so it was but yeah, that was it. No, I had the list I had,

geo: That wasn’t a list?

joe: It was kind, it wa- that was as a,

nick: a

geo: a- … that was a comment. That

joe: list … there’s a lot of lists. Okay.

But the list I had is can Nick lick it? I was thinking about the elemental the periodic table.

geo: Mm-hmm. Different

joe: And so-

geo: like can it, can we waffle

joe: it?

Can he… So

nick: Isn’t there

already like a outline of the stuff that you can mess with,

and then it gets to the stuff that you c- shouldn’t mess with, to the stuff where you absolutely should not mess with?

geo: with?

So none of it

joe: I don’t think that’s how the periodic

table is

nick: I’m pretty sure it is[01:07:00]

joe: Sure

tera: pretty sure it isn’t.

joe: So I had-

geo: We need to make a

joe: I have,

geo: I think

nick: a-

joe: I got things you

can- lick. You’ve of science before, right?

nick: before, right? Yeah, it’s the stuff that you just do in beakers.

joe: Can s- things you

can lick

very safely. Gold.

tera: Oh, I thought you were gonna quiz them. Like, you should mention things and then-

joe: Oh, you

want me to do it that way?

Yes. Yeah.

mary: Oh, yes,

joe: please.

Oh, okay.

nick: Is it a round table thing or is it just me?

joe: no. I mean, I don’t have a, I don’t-

I

think I- I didn’t have the

whole- I think

tera: I should abstain and let you three.

nick: if he can

lick this

mary: if he can lick this thing.

All right. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

nick: Can Nick lick it? Cadmium.

tera: Cadmium.

mary: that’s like in batteries too. Batteries. Yeah, I’m pro- I’m thinking probably no. Yeah. He’s gonna

nick: gonna say

geo: would say yes.

nick: everything.

geo: He’s gonna say yes

joe: what. Yeah, that’s right.

tera: Is that related to Cadbury? No. It’s not. “

‘Cause that you can lick.

nick: No, thallium.

tera: Wait. Wait.

Is it? Are

you gonna tell them if they’re right?

joe: Thall- I don’t

know.

mary: you gonna wait till we get to

joe: We can.

mary: and see? Okay. And then say

joe: And

nick: okay … we can’t know, Nick’s dead.

joe: Thallium? Thallium,

mary: Oh, no. Oh,

joe: yeah.

tera: Oh,

joe: Absolutely not.

Listen.

tera: Okay.

[01:08:00] You wanna see your daughter grow up,

right?

You

nick: said is it safe to lick, it’s can you lick it.

You can lick

it. You

can lick

joe: You

geo: you lick

nick: go around.

geo: Can you lick it and survive? Thank you.

mary: Thank, oh, okay, thank you for spelling all of that out, Georgia.

joe: Yeah,

tera: Otherwise,

joe: didn’t think I need to. It is… You

lick a

tera: lick the second

one. You’re right.

nick: second one. Right. So

mary: you have to-

joe: how about polonium?

nick: No.

tera: No.

joe: No, yeah. Sure. You shouldn’t. Yeah. And Alexander Litvinenko was famously killed it was a assassination, by this.

A tiny amount. It’s a radioactive. So anything with uranium,

tera: Plutonium

joe: plutonium, you probably should stay away from. Um, how about,

mary: How about, Mm-hmm. Yeah. Oh, my gosh.

This is-

joe: Oh my gosh. Let’s…

How

nick: How about

joe: how about cesium? I was kidding. Ooh,

geo: I was kidding.

nick: Ooh, that one doesn’t sound

joe: sound as bad. Cesium. Which

tera: That-

nick: Which one’s that the, where is that on the periodic table?

joe: It’s in the, like, soft metal area. If [01:09:00] you

nick: gonna say you could lick it. No.

joe: it. No.

No I

wouldn’t. How about, how about, you know-

geo: can

joe: this one? Here, this one here. Little balls. How about sodium?

nick: Yeah.

geo: Yes.

joe: Okay, you guys, you do not wanna lick sodium. So- It’s got to

mary: pure sodium,

geo: what-

tera: Pure sodium … Caesium. Like, what

joe: yeah … cesium- what is it These are,

These elements violently react with moisture, so the minute your tongue touches them, you’re gonna s- yeah, your tongue’s gonna, like, melt off. It’s gonna ex- Oh. It’s

very- Very

bad

mary: table salt

geo: is made so that we can ingest

joe: and

tera: about magnesium? That’s the

joe: chloride. So sodium chloride, that is table salt.

geo: And I’m thinking of

tera: chlorine- Chlorine … you should not lick

joe: Chlorine

nick: But You- could just sniff that

joe: You

You can smell

geo: swim in it …

joe: should not sniff it.

mary: it.

joe: Do not sniff chlorine.

tera: Pure chlorine?

joe: Don’t,

nick: no one said pure chlorine.

geo: Just like the

mary: But

joe: chlorine are we sniffing?

geo: Like the swimming pool

nick: Yeah.

mary: but you said

nick: It’s diluted

mary: magnesium,

joe: that either.

nick: Don’t sniff

joe: let’s not huff chlorine.

Please [01:10:00] don’t.

tera: it out.

geo: Please, no.

nick: there … The most unscientific science

portion we have

joe: that are safe, like gold, silver, carbon- Hydrogen … Silicon, platinum, I mean, you can lick those things pretty…

Yeah, you can- Hydrogen … yeah, go away. Hydrogen, I wouldn’t-

mary: I was gonna say … lick hydrogen, but-

joe: it’s

nick: can huff

it, right?

mary: I heard you say that,

joe: you get it was

mary: that we could do, and I thought- You can lick

joe: can take- “

mary: No, I don’t think

joe: Huff… Well, it’s a gas,

nick: you have to.

joe: you can- I’m

tera: I’m licking nitrogen

joe: atmosphere is, like, 70-some percent nitrogen, so pretty safe. The noble gases, argon, helium, neon, yeah, go for it.

nick: See? I was right. There are portions of it that are safe.

joe: I mean,

it’s safe yeah. But- But you can’t lick those. Those are smellies.

nick: You get enough of it in the air, you

joe: that stink? I mean,

tera: I

guess technically nitrogen you shouldn’t lick because if you’re licking it, then it’s probably liquid.

joe: probably liquid. Oh, yeah. That’s probably pretty cold. Ooh. Yeah. Same thing with carbon monoxide. Right.

geo: monoxide. Brain freeze. Dry ice. So you

joe: Dry ice is carbon monoxide. That’s about minus 80

nick: Tear [01:11:00] your face. Liquid

joe: nitrogen is about negative 196 C. Yep. So you

tera: C. Yep.

joe: shouldn’t lick it. All right.

nick: it. All right.

geo: That- I think you’re dead,

joe: Nick. Nick is very

nick: I’m

joe: dead.

No

superpowers. Maybe some of the the, the eums, the

uranium, plutonium, polonium, maybe you’ll get some sort of a superpower out of that, but,

tera: can guarantee you the radium would not because we have a test sub- Oh … a whole test group of women who licked

joe: That is true …

tera: right …their, That’s

joe: That’s right, yeah … Radium

mary: Paint brushes.

tera: not thank you. I’m like, it’s not a pencil. They made it like- And they licked it constantly and- … like watches- Yep … like clocks. To keep it nice and fine-tipped.

nick: Wait, what?

joe: Yep.

What is it? You know, the, the- glow in the dark, the glow in the dark lettering on the watches.

mary: Mm-hmm. And

nick: And then- And they would lick it?

geo: they worked

tera: their paint brushes

geo: they worked in, like, a factory. They were ‘

tera: cause they’re drawing the

nick: They

joe: to skip the contaminant

geo: out, yeah.

But there’s a book called Radium Girls. But

joe: yeah. And

mary: they didn’t know it was-

geo: Yeah … yeah, they didn’t know. Same

joe: thing as lead.

Lead, [01:12:00] Lead Lead was the other thing. Lead was in,

geo: they had

joe: was in makeup. Plates, makeup, you talk about

mary: about the kids toys.

joe: toys. Kids’ toys,

geo: That’s right. Well-

joe: And that was, some people say that was, were you telling me that, Georgia? But they think the incidents of people in carnival sideshows were because of- Yeah … lead. Mm-hmm. You know, the,

how much lead- that’s right … was in our environment.

mary: Or how much when we reduce the amount of lead exposure- Right … that we have we’ve also seen the decrease in violent crime over the years. Right, right. And people think that maybe that may be possibly something that contributed to that decrease.

geo: a very real thing because the- Mm-hmm.

Yeah … they’re, they have to go in and test the paint in

joe: Soil. I mean- To make

geo: to make sure that they don’t have lead. Yes. That’s, like, a huge thing for kids growing up, having that exposure, you know? And

joe: those, all those heavy metals, lead, mercury- Lead

thallium, cadmium, those are all, osmium- We’re

geo: about Joe, you have this m- this tell- telescope Microscope I mean microscope.

I knew it was a

joe: Yeah, you’re right. In [01:13:00] the ’50s, ’60s, like they would give microscope kits or other kits about and it would have little pieces of, uranium ore, things like that in it.

So

tera: think- A- and little vials of mercury … and

geo: and I think the one

joe: we didn’t talk about mercury. Yep. on

geo: our shelf right now has some, right? Didn’t it have little things when

joe: I don’t know if I wanna be announcing that on the radio. But yeah, no, it

does have a

nick: Oh.

tera: no, I know.

joe: a very little piece.

Very little. So uranium,

I mean,

like radium salts, this probably is uranium salts. We work with that a lot. They’re very low emitters. They’re not high energy emitters

like-

some of the other

ones. oh yeah. Um,

right. You don’t want kids because the… You’re probably fine if you don’t-

tera: grind it and huff

joe: if you don’t eat it.

nick: lick it.

joe: you don’t eat it or inhale it- Yeah … you’re probably fine,

tera: grind it and huff it

geo: Or, and then- Yeah … and then there’s also the sc- the woman scientist that, why am I

tera: Madame Curie? Yes.

joe: Yeah.

yeah.

geo: Oh, yeah. And she would just have, like-

joe: She did, yeah. mean, her- On her desk-

tera: Yeah

she

nick: the,

what are you… Wait

joe: the,

nick: Plutonium?

geo: or what was it that [01:14:00] she had just, like-

nick: like-

tera: Was it-

joe: Was it plutonium? Yeah.

geo: it was plutonium.

Yeah. Just,

nick: was. Oh. You’re just mou- you’re

motioning like it’s a big mountain.

geo: Yeah. On her desk she had this big mound of

tera: her lab books are still so hot they can’t be put in like a museum or anything.

nick: Oh,

Shit.

tera: Like for view because they’re so hot.

geo: Right. Really?

mary: Mm-hmm.

tera: Mm-hmm. Dang.

nick: Just ’cause she just…

tera: Because

they didn’t fully

mary: was working- It wasn’t

geo: wasn’t known that was a- Yeah …

mary: Know what that was. So I wanna ask, because I think we’re at, like, at an hour and a half right now, so it’s

joe: It was like radium and, and polonium.

mary: To wind up … to,

joe: It, that’s what she had. Polonium. Ore,

mary: you know- But- Quickly

joe: looking it up.

tera: up …

mary: I have

a question for you, Tera so what is there a an example in popular culture of lab safety done right? It’s more fun when it’s done wrong I would imagine. But is there

tera: interestingly- Yeah … I was thinking about this because I saw when you’re scrolling through your streaming services and they advertise newly added, and they had X Files. [01:15:00] And I was just a little too young to watch X Files when it first came out. Mm-hmm.

We lived in the middle of nowhere. We only had one TV, no cable. Yeah. We had a giant satellite dish, and so I didn’t watch X Files. And I was like, “I wanna watch X- X Files.” Mm-hmm. And so I’m on the second season right now, and they’ve quarantined them pretty well actually- … twice now, and it’s pretty impressive.

Cool. Yeah, so that was one I actually thought of while watching it just a few days ago.

mary: Awesome. Well, la- later on Scully gets a little fast and loose with her use of gloves, and she’ll clap her…

Yeah. You’ll see this a lot in movies, the actor, express shock and horror will clap their gloved hand over their face.

tera: And so I

mary: always love when they do that, so. I think the

joe: I think the the thing in X-Files that w- you know, I watched it when they were out, was that molecular biology is extremely fast. Every experiment is accelerate… In there they have it right. It is actually what you will do.

Yeah. But then it’s like it only took, what, an experiment that would take you a couple hours is, like, 15 minutes later they [01:16:00] got it. And it was like, hold up.

mary: No. It was like- I

joe: Ho- I hope my PI isn’t watching this, ’cause I can’t do it that fast. Like, that’s not how

mary: Hey, wait a second. Sorry … Scully did this in 15 minutes. How come it

joe: a whole day. That’s right, Yeah. It’s

geo: like a cooking

joe: Yeah. That’s right,

yes. That’s

geo: magic of TV.

joe: Yeah, they

mary: they were-

joe: there. No but X-Files is a really good example. think

nick: feel like they do- Oh, God … spend time, like they, in some episodes they do be like, “All right. We’re gonna go away for this, and then

joe: No, not, it was still not… It was still, everything was- Like- … super fast. No, it was… Even that was fast, right? That would take you many days maybe. It was, like, kinda, you know, yeah,

nick: I was like

joe: I feel like I, I- yeah.

We used to, I used to watch it with a other friend. We were… I was in grad school really when that was at its heyday, so we would all get together on Sundays, and we would go, and this… We were all in the lab. We were all, biochemists, molecular geneticists, so we would all just pick apart that ass, you know.

And, yeah, it was a party. Yeah, we would make baked goods. It was a fun time.

mary: fun times.

nick: Yeah- I think she was making fun of you there, Joe …

joe: gonna say

Contagion was

geo: kidding

nick: I

joe: I think the science in Contagion was really good. Mm-hmm. And touching face, you talked about [01:17:00] that. Touching the

face and things. Yeah. that

came up, That’s right. That came up, and they were trying to contain and you watch that- I think the last time I watched it was actually during the COVID pandemic. It was- Oh, no

it was

like, “Oh, this is it’s radio,” right? It

was- yeah. But that one,

That one did have really good… But you’re right.

In like superhero comic land, I really can’t think of many

tera: I think the point of it is things went wrong … science.

joe: right. Like

nick: Mm-hmm.

mary: Yeah. Yeah. trying to think of what was good science.

tera: Like, I feel like The Martian was good science. Martian, yeah. Even when they put together the probe, they were, you know, in the clean room, in the suits, trying to keep it as sterile as possible. Yeah. Like, they did a pretty good job there.

joe: Yeah. But that wasn’t the plot wasn’t

driven-

tera: Wasn’t driven through the science

lab accident. Like, right, and I think that’s the whole

point of a lot of pop culture is it’s driven, you know, it’s make catastrophe, and now let’s look at the- Mm-hmm

geo: Or think about 28 Days Later.

joe: Oh, right. The animals… Yep. Go ahead.

geo: Oh, no. And the, it was the ki- the kids.

I say kids, I don’t know why. The protesters, and they [01:18:00] wanna free the animals, and it was good intentions, but-

joe: think about… And that’s real serious, too, because there’s a lot of-

tera: I mean- Oh, yeah …

joe: You’re… Well, I mean, the, it’s serious in terms of real practical, so animal facilities are locked down, limited access, and that’s part of our training- And there’s a-

is that- Like

tera: of IDs … yeah … like one ID to get in, and then where the animals are kept, at least one or two more scans,

joe: And you’re not supposed to let people in. Like you’re

tera: to- One scan, one person

joe: so

you’re not supposed to… And you’re trained these things

because of that instance.

So it’s- That’s right.

geo: La- Later

tera: and it’s because of that, but also because, like, you, we have multiple animal facilities, and there’s different levels of cleanliness. And so if you go to the dirty one, you have to wait a certain amount of time before you can go to the cleaner one.

Mm-hmm. So you have to start from the cleanest and go down if you have to visit multiple. Mm-hmm. And so you have to keep track of how many times you’ve entered and left and everything as well.

joe: And fac- animal facilities have [01:19:00] changed over the years. Oh, yeah. So probably in, I mean, the last 10 years, 15, I mean, they’ve gotten much more strict with access and things like that.

So there were periods in time where animal facility, each lab had their own cages, and they would just take care of them. They would feed them, whatever. Which

that would- It was

geo: thing where, like, protesters

joe: They would-

yeah. Yeah. It happened a lot,

tera: I’ve even heard- Let out

joe: out

tera: the university, I don’t know if this was real- Yeah … but they, I remember hearing when they would do the scav hunt on campus for the undergrads, that sometimes one of the things would be to get an animal from one of the facilities.

nick: Oh, damn

tera: And to really be alert.

joe: Yeah. Yeah, I know U- University of Pennsylvania, ’cause, I, I mean, I grew up in Philadelphia, I remember they let out all of the animals, and they were talking about how, like, traffic was snarled because there were, like, lobsters and sea creatures-

like,

tera: kind of- I will

joe: acro- It

was, like, kind of, it’s kind of cruel because a lot of these lab animals- They

tera: suffering and dying

were-

joe: Right … were kind of,

their development, their genetics- Oh, yeah

nick: scared in the wild

tera: for, like,

joe: Albino mice, I mean, they [01:20:00] stand out so much that any predator’s gonna pick ’em off.

So really what kind of life then? And these lab animals, as I said, especially with the conditions, why do you need them? How many do you need? Why are you raising them? But they are, treated as well as possible, and

so-

tera: certain types of food. You can’t have so many- Right … you can only have so many in a cage, but you have to have at least so many in a cage because they are social animals.

So if you need to isolate them, you have to have a very good experimental reason why. I

mary: I see.

nick: Interesting.

mary: M- what’s that Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH?

tera: Oh, I loved

mary: I love that. Isn’t it? You know, I read it I reread it again a couple years ago. Definitely stands up. Stand, you know? Y- yeah, it’s-

tera: should find that

mary: it’s a, yeah it’s a good one. Yeah.

tera: But I was gonna say every once in a while we’ll be walking through the tunnel, and we’ll find a rogue little crab

joe: we’ll be walking through the ‘

tera: cause it’s food for the octopuses, I believe.

nick: Oh. Wait, you have octopuses there?

I

joe: food

for the

tera: There, there’s

nick: why haven’t you [01:21:00] showed me

these? ‘

tera: Cause

they’re not-

joe: I want

tera: He’s

geo: not allowed

tera: an

nick: not- Oh wink.

mary: I’m

joe: So I was gonna, I, I wanted to, I was gonna go back

to, um- Okay

quickly circle back to Madame Curie, ’cause I did look it up.

And so 1899, 19- 1902 was when she did a lot of her work the Nobel Prize-winning work. She just had a pile of pitchblende, which was this radioact- the more radioactive than uranium alone. It was this pile of ore. To isolate one milligram of radium, so she i- identified two new elements, radium and then polonium, which is named after Poland.

She processed multiple tons of pitchblende, P-I-T-C-H-B-L-E-N-D-E ore through boiling, dissolving, filtering, and crystallization. And so they didn’t have proper shielding.

Oh, boy. Uh, they handled the radioactive material with bare hands. They kept samples on their desks, in their labs, in their lab coat pockets.

That’s nuts. It was very- He-

It

was heavily contaminated with radium-226. The research did lead directly to the 1903 Nobel [01:22:00] Prize in Physics and the 1911 Nobel Prize in Chemistry which was, caused her exposure to radiation. Her work did pave the way for cancer treatment and modern atomic physics.

And as Tera was saying, due to the 1,600-year half-life of radium-226, most of Madame Curie’s personal items, including lab equipment, clothes, and notebooks remain highly Radioactive and are stored in lead-lined boxes in

geo: And how long did she live? Like, I mean, I’m sure she had a lot of health consequences

joe: consequences from, from-

tera: she’s probably lucky she lived long enough to win two Nobels. Right. Because you have to be alive to win a Nobel. and she’s… Yeah. It’s pretty incredible she lived.

nick: And she’s still alive today,

correct?

geo: As long as is sh- Yes, she is. She-

joe: 66

years

old.

nick: she was 66

tera: She was 66.

geo: was

joe: she was 66 years old. Wow. Her death was caused by aplastic anemia a condition resulting from her long-term exposure to radiation during her pioneering

geo: she really lived [01:23:00] older than I would’ve thought. Yeah …

joe: I mean,

a lot of her work, and it’s always- Yeah … joked about is that it was just who can get enough material, who can build a better scale because the measure, kinda the radioactive material, she was in a race with other labs around the world, and they all had big piles of radioactive material, and they were trying.

And so who could build, who can measure the kind of very small, like I said, a milligram of material. I don’t know what’s happening over there. Nick is licking something.

nick: it-

tera: Nick is

geo: is licking something.

joe: but yeah, no, su-

super

tera: an ice cream. Yeah,

joe: Yeah. It’s not ice cream. It’s… And it’s not a

rock.

nick: so-

It was just red wine.

joe: Yeah. So I think this was…

geo: final

tera: thoughts?

geo: Very interesting. Mm-hmm.

nick: I think The Hulk does the best job at, The

joe: Hulk,

I mean, definitely lab violations there,

too.

nick: the initial one, yes. Yes. But after that, I think he learned his lesson.

joe: After the initial one?

tera: think a

joe: I don’t think He

did because even, so-

tera: Captain America was a major lab, you know- Captain America

violation. Was it? Ethical.

nick: [01:24:00] ethically? Yeah, but- he

joe: was… Yeah, I don’t know. His

nick: was a whole

team

tera: there was… Yeah.

joe: Who’d they test that on?

tera: on? Nobody. what are they

joe: at? It was just like, “We got a super serum. Let’s go.”

geo: I

nick: thought they did test it before.

joe: Oh, they didn’t? ‘Cause they wanted to have

nick: Oh, no, it was after that they started testing it … the super soldier

joe: yes. Yeah, after it worked, then they wanted to make it again. Yes. So yeah no.

geo: So there’s

joe: Cap was-

geo: We need a new superhero called Lab Safety Man.

joe: Oxo- Oxalato Man

nick: This guy sucks already. I’m… It’s already

tera: Man and his sidekick Lotl Boy.

joe: Lat-O Boy.

geo: That’s right, Waddle

joe: They did science right.

tera: I’m trademarking that. Nobody’s allowed to take that.

joe: that.

geo: Lab Safety Man. Oh. We did

joe: did science right, and now we’re gonna cool as superheroes.

tera: We should have ended this with a reading of Goodnight Lab.

joe: Good night lab, yeah. Do you got it?

Go.

tera: It’s, that’s in-

nick: How can you offer something up and not-

joe: we should end this episode

We should end this episode. Oh, wow.

tera: Oh. Not to recommend will recommend to anybody with [01:25:00] children, you know, if you get very bored of Goodnight Moon, you should find a copy of Goodnight Lab. Yeah.

mary: I like that. That’s a good way to, Well,

tera: Well- … wrap

joe: and don’t do self-experimentation.

We talk about on the episode, there’s been a few episodes where we talked about the underground caves, the, what Strife went under there and participated in you know, kind of time,

nick: isolation. Leave it to the professionals.

joe: You had Barry Marshall who won a Nobel Prize for drinking H. pylori to prove it caused ulcers.

So people have but that was controlled. It was documented.

geo: not recommend.

joe: yes.

tera: of all of the ones we’ve mentioned- Yeah

that’s probably the only one I’m semi-okay with.

That’s one.

joe: he had a whole bunch of, he documented it. He was, it was a controlled experiment.

He went into it with consent. It was, but yes, most of the

time it’s not.

geo: but don’t- Yeah … take

nick: Lick the

joe: Taste the tape. Yeah. Don’t lick it. Yes.

nick: Just lick the cat … stay curious. You’ll be fine

joe: yeah. Taste

mary: and recklessness. Latex

tera: is your friend.

joe: Yeah. Especially now, I mean, I think nowadays where people [01:26:00] are

trying to- Or not

reject science or science fact and , “Oh, I’m gonna do this, I’m gonna do whatever, and I hear about this drug or whatever.” yeah I think it’s good to be curious, it’s good to be and ask questions, but, , just don’t start testing things on yourself ’cause the consequences

nick: someone

joe: are- Talk to people.

Yeah, I mean, and get opinions, and that’s what peer review is about kind of

tera: does make me wanna put in a plug of, you know, the whole health conscious people and whatnot, that the FDA does not regulate a lot of the nutraceuticals. And so a lot of your vitamins and other supplements are not regulated, so whatever they say is in it may or may not be, the amounts may or may not be accurate, and just please be cautious.

joe: Yep.

geo: There we go.

mary: Very true. There you go.

joe: you go.

nick: Tera do you have anything else to plug?

joe: Besides

what you just said?

tera: said?

nick: That’s why I said anything

else.

tera: No, I mean, my hair’s pretty good. I don’t need any of, hair plugs. Yeah. So I think I’m good.

joe: Nice. Nick, any final questions? I know you guys have a-

nick: I think we’ve we’ve covered pretty

joe: did it? Yeah. Yeah. Awesome.

nick: yeah, like, ’cause what you said [01:27:00] that the X-Files was … Yeah.

mary: Yeah.

joe: yeah

nick: Yeah. But thank you for being here again with us Tera

tera: i, anytime. Just-

joe: a fun time.

nick: We’re gonna have you back all the time now.

joe: We’ll have you there. We- I love it. We have, we, we like having return guests here. On that note, you have me, Joe.

nick: You got Nick.

joe: We’ve got Nick. Georgia. We’ve got Georgia.

mary: got Mary.

joe: We’ve got Mary.

nick: And we went down some holes You guys stay curious.

Some safe holes. Stay safe. I say that every

joe: episode. Stay safe. There you go. And we love you.

nick: Lick rocks.

joe: No, don’t lick them. Please don’t.

nick: don’t. Bye-bye.

joe: you. Cheers.

tera: Cheers.