With Special Guest Lorena Salinas
Who drew the Nazca Lines and why? Aliens, offerings, or brilliant engineers? The crew explores Nazca Lines, crop circles, Peruvian history and culture.
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joe: [00:00:00] Hey, welcome back to the Rabbit Hole of Research down here in the basement studio. We’re all crewed up.
nick: Whole team.
joe: got– the whole team in studio. You’ve got me, Joe.
nick: Yeah, I got
Nick. You got
Nick.
Got
georgia: Got Georgia. Georgia.
mary: Yeah, Mary.
joe: got Mary, and- We
nick: a special guest
today
joe: very special guest today, please.
lorena: Thank you guys for having me. I’m Lorena Salinas. I am an architectural drafter and designer, entrepreneur, and most importantly, an artist. So I would say I’m a Peruvian artist, ’cause all the art I create is it tailors to my Peruvian culture.
joe: Nice. And that is perfect because this episode we’re gonna be talking about the Nazca Lines of Peru and crop circles.
So this kind of a
cross-section of pop culture, history, cultural, identity and history.
nick: [00:01:00] So- And this is leading off into our Halloween season, correct?
joe: And this is not-
nick: No, I thought this was
g-
joe: I don’t know why… I mean, it doesn’t have to be horror. I think it’s mysterious.
lorena: There’s many mysteries behind the Nazca Lines. A lot of people have so many questions about who created this, and I don’t know, honestly, I feel like it was us.
And I think there’s a lot of theories just floating out there, that it could be the aliens, it could be, the Nazca people, and then we go back to understand, like, who were the Nazca people?
Yeah. And I can
mary: a good question.
They
lorena: were my ancestors. Mm-hmm. Because I’m from Peru.
mary: So could you let everybody know what Nazca Lines are?
lorena: The Nazca Lines are geoglyphics that were created over 2,000 years ago, and they are in the desert. So if you can just think about these lines being created by humans in a desert area where there’s supposed to be no water and no, no plants or anything like that.
How were they able to create this?
nick: [00:02:00] And
so
georgia: it
lorena: this huge controversy, and I can tell you back when I… ‘Cause I was born and raised in Peru, so then this is what we talked about the entire time. Mm-hmm. About the different… ‘Cause, Peru has a lot of history. We have a lot of traditions. We have a lot of culture, but there are certain cultures that have created this sort of maps for us.
Mm-hmm. And then the Nazca were this group of people that came way before the Incas. ‘Cause a lot of people think the very few people who know about Peru usually associates us with the
Incas. Right.
And we say that ourselves. Even if you ask me, “Oh, am I, are you from, are you a Nazca?” or whatever. I’d be like, “No I’m from the Incas.”
But I can always go back and say, “You know what? I am from the Nazcas,
too.”
mary: too.” Mm-hmm, Yeah.
Yeah,
joe: Yeah, there was several different civilizations that came before the Incas in Peru.
Exactly. And we just… You’re right. They were the- maybe the most well-known and, the most studied. Right. But before that there were
lorena: There was
Moche, [00:03:00] there was Nazca, there was
Paracas, there was Chimú.
Yeah.
joe: Karel or
whatever.
Yep, Yeah, Yep, yep, yep. Another thing about the Nazca lines that were interesting is that they’re, it’s not just lines. That some of these perfectly straight lines where it looked like the, was it the lighter colored pebbles removed for darker colored?
And the other thing that’s interesting, when I was doing my research, ’cause I looked this up, the desert there gets very little to no rain. Right. So it’s a very pristine environment in terms of capturing these historical artifacts. And some people, it’s even, you could see footprints of the workers- Mm-hmm
who actually worked on the lines and the site being preserved. So that’s how- Oh, that’s
lorena: of years ago. Right, right
joe: really interesting. Then you have
georgia: Are you saying they’re still preserved?
joe: They still preserve.
lorena: are
joe: right.
georgia: How could they be preserved over that
many- There’s no nobody- Because nobody else
joe: there. Yeah, no one else has… Right, right. And no weather,
georgia: So
joe: If you
step in the mud, then it rains, your, that, that footprint’s
gone. Yeah,
lorena: away,
especially [00:04:00] with the wind and
rain and all the elements.
Yeah. But that’s how fascinating this is to the entire world, to where they’re like, “Well, how is this happening? How does it not go away? Who were these people?
Was it really the aliens, or was it real people?” And there has been a lot of scientific proof.
joe: Yeah, and there’s, and then the other thing is not just, I was saying not just lines, but there’s the figures, the astronaut, the hummingbird, the spider, the monkey, the dog. There’s
all these
georgia: big are these?
joe: crazy. Yeah.
and they, some of these are, some of the lines stretch for miles, like 30, 30 miles.
Yeah. And then
you have figures that can be, miles, miles big. And you really can’t tell what it is until you get an aerial view. And not just the Nazca Lines, but you know, other sites around the world have this kind of phenomenon where you have
these-
just really large, how’d they do it? How would you plan that? How would you design it? And you can think about-
nick: is this just their way of going and doing like the giant statues, [00:05:00] except it’s laying down, it’s less likely to be torn down. It’s-
lorena: So are you trying to say this is like a 2D version- Yeah … of that?
joe: Like a pyramid. So
lorena: important
first of all
nick: It, I mean, ’cause-
lorena: important to understand that the Nazca Lines are categorizing there’s three different categories.
So we just have the line itself, then we have
the geometric shapes, and then we also have the other shapes that are either human
or animals
joe: Right.
lorena: So then there’s a lot of controversy behind maybe, the straight lines that extend for miles and miles, those were supposed to be some sort of connection to the stars, the moon, or the sun, pointing to the sun and stuff like that.
nick: Giving direction
like a
compass.
Right. Yeah.
joe: people, I’ve seen the- I read when I was doing research, I saw theories about water, the lines would be water
lorena: Leading you to the water,
Yeah.
nick: Yeah. If you’re up
at a vantage point and you’re able to see that, you’re like, “Oh, okay, this makes sense. Something is going this direction.”
joe: [00:06:00] But it’s they’re perfectly straight. That’s the thing. So if you think of like rivers or streams or creeks or nature, when you do landscaping in your yard, you usually try to avoid very straight lines because people go, that’s very a hard line.
In nature, you usually have curves, they’re softer, they meander, and you that’s very pleasing to the eye.
lorena: but you see- so-
In, in Peruvian culture, from when I was a child, they always taught us that we should go for the challenging thing. That’s why
And that comes from our ancestors. Mm-hmm. They will always say like, “Oh, look at the Incas. They build on such high altitude.” So then therefore nothing is impossible. Whatever you think it’s impossible, you can make it happen. And just like if we go back, we can go back to the Nazcas, and then they were in an environment that was so bad that they should have just moved out of there, but no, they didn’t.
They decided to stay there, and they created this whole thing that now it’s being recognized by everyone and it’s being, … It’s this amazing thing. I’m surprised it’s not one of the [00:07:00] Seven Wonders like Machu Picchu is.
Yeah. But
if you think of the Incas being amazing architects, to us Peruvians, when we think of the Nazcas, they were amazing mathematicians.
joe: right. And so that, I was gonna say that a lot of these designs, they’re just, they’re math-based, like when you get down to it. So if you actually calculate it to Nick’s point, like
constructing the pyramids that was a mathematical problem. So you do it. There were, though, technical challenges that we still don’t understand how that was accomplished without machinery, without our modern tools.
And so that’s what makes it really special. Not that can we figure this out, but how would you do it at that time and on this scale? Because it’s not just a, small thing. It’s, these are large, massive. And so if you made a mistake, you would not see it, right? I mean, we could go up now with a drone but back then, how would you tell you made a mistake?
georgia: and just-
joe: and it’s… Go ahead.
georgia: this is a really stupid question, but [00:08:00] they’re still there?
I
nick: still
georgia: the fa- all the designs are still there?
nick: And
the
footprints.
joe: And a footprints.
lorena: designs are still there? yeah. And the footprints. and the footprints. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. They
joe: to find new
geoglyphs.
Yeah. They do. That’s right. They continue to find. Yep, that’s right.
georgia: Like within the last
joe: five
years-
lorena: Yeah, yep … they have
found, I
believe,
keep going.
mary: They
georgia: keep
joe: going. I mean, like even places you don’t expect, like the Amazon jungle you think that’s a pristine, overgrown, but as unfortunately people are clearing parts of the jungle for, different reasons.
They’ve found now geoglyphs there that were made that, so that means that someone at some point in time came through and made this structure. And I wanna say there’s two, two kind of types of geoglyphs. One are ones that are flat on the ground, but there are ones that are kinda three-dimensional, so they’re raised kinda mounds that I mentioned Kazakhstan.
That was one that had raised mounds that when you get in the air, you can see it in a figure of the raised mounds make some sort of shape. But at ground level they just look like regular mounds. That was a thing. It was, like, [00:09:00] on Google Earth that someone was looking for pyramids around
world, and
and they found this, they just saw the pattern and they’re like, “Oh, what is this?”
And it, it turned out to be one of these geoglyphs. So really fascinating. Everywhere, I mean, in America, South America, in Asia, Europe you can find these these structures that have been there for thousands of years old
still persist in, in their environment, so. The ones at, in Peru, the Nazca Lines are probably some of the most well-preserved because of just the environmental factors right, ’cause it’s the desert.
Nazca Desert is such that you don’t get a lot of weather events, and so that helps preserve these kind of features.
lorena: Imagine in this area there are years that you only get one rain a year.
Right. Right.
Just
think about that. Right.
joe: Right.
georgia: Mm-hmm.
mary: to every drop.
lorena: Yeah. And that’s one of the things that is very fascinating. A lot of people talk about the lines themselves, but there was a lot of stuff behind it, like the infrastructure behind it, where they actually built [00:10:00] this round circles that were created by them to lead the water from the mountains and create this sort of tunnels to make the water travel to different places.
nick: Do you think the lines at, like
do the
lines lead to water or no? Is that-
lorena: Is that- I think the lines were… What, my, my personal belief is that the lines were initially created as a way for them to trying to do ceremonial things, because that’s what we’ve been taught as kids.
mary: Mm-hmm.
nick: So not as something as, like, a resource for the people, but more or less something-
georgia: sp-
well,
lorena: we believe we Peruvians, I say we Peruvians, we believe that a lot of the lines were created as ceremonial spaces. And then we also believe other things that were created were to pretty much be given as offerings to the gods, because they had different gods. And if you look [00:11:00] at the geoglyphics,
there were some that were of
georgia: animals,
lorena: animals that were unknown to them at the time.
Like for instance, one of the most popular ones would be the hummingbird. Everyone in Peru knows the hummingbird, and it’s used in, in, in in a lot of different things in Peru. And we always think of the Nazca Lines with the hummingbirds first, then the monkey.
Those are the two that are very popular.
And then people will say like, “Why the hummingbird?” if they had no knowledge of a hummingbird. They’d never seen a hummingbird. But if you think about Peru, the country itself is divided into three different regions, where we have the Amazon, then we have the mountain area, and then we have the desert area.
joe: So- There
nick: hummingbirds down there?
lorena: in there? In the Amazons, yes, we have hummingbirds, monkeys. But where the Nazca Lines are they don’t have any of
it Oh, so it,
georgia: it
nick: just
be word of mouth that was going-
Yeah …down then. Like-
But
lorena: well, when the Nazcas were there, there were also other cultures that were…
There were also [00:12:00] other not cultures.
Tribes?
No,
it’s not tribes. That’s civilizations that were coming
up as well. Civilizations. So then,
they were there, there has been some proof that they were exchanging things. Yeah. Because they have wood and they have other things that they have found nowadays that of course there was no wood there, so they talked to other civilizations and they exchanged things such as wood and plants, ’cause they were able to grow actually trees there, and they were ac- actually able to create these puquios. That’s what it’s called. Those circle things are called puquios. Yeah.
joe: And I mean, they had no– written language established
lorena: It wasn’t …and
joe: like that. So when you talk about communicating the monkey in particular, that wasn’t in that region. So they had to go out and to make this large, geoglyph of a creature that you’ve never seen it is pretty amazing.
And the other thing you mentioned a few other reasons. The other one I saw was for astronomical calendar kind of [00:13:00] ideas, that these aligns, align with, equinoxes and things like that, that might help the spider figure might depict Orion the constellation of Orion.
So there were these ideas that, you know, I think Nikki raised a good point. This is the 2D version of some of the 3D thing, like Stonehenge. People think that also had some of these features in it. But it’s such a… I mean, like the pyramids, you mentioned that the Seven Wonders. It’s just so amazing that if someone said, “Go out here now on a field,” even a little field, a football field, 100 yards,
“and
make a design with your lawnmower on that looks like something.”
Right? I mean, it’s not an easy task, even with tools, to go out and to do this kind of thing to make it look. And you could get a, like some of the things, you get grid patterns you take a little picture, and then you do a grid. But remember, at this time, there’s no photographs, there’s no video, you got no iPhone, you got nothing.
It’s just your memory and drawings. And then to go out there and go,
nick: you also forgot about the guy up [00:14:00] top yelling
joe: That’s right. Yeah,
right. Go
left. “Go
left. You know, erase
that.”
you So you’re scraping your feet against the ground trying to clear it up. But yeah.
lorena: back to the idea how great as mathematicians
they were, ’cause it’s almost like, like, how they…
Even back in their times, they were drawing at a bigger scale. So I am sure they were doing this stuff in small scale and then translating that to bigger
scale.
joe: Yeah. Yep.
lorena: And then a- as far as we know, there have been studies and they have proof that they were actually doing it the way they do it nowadays, where they use stakes and then extend a
string.
Yep. Yep.
joe: I, yep, I read about that. Yep, that you can do it.
georgia: Yep. You can do it.
lorena: there are, there is proof of that
georgia: and how did they prove that? I was just curious.
lorena: Because they did find remains, yeah,
georgia: So they found
lorena: were able to
georgia: and- They were able to trace
joe: Yeah. Over,
lorena: back 2,000
georgia: Wow. You,
joe: and you mentioned Machu Picchu a few times, and one of the things that were interesting, and I knew about it.
I would love to go visit and head down to Peru. I’m… I’ll put it on my list.
mary: [00:15:00] But
joe: But the engineering was so precise that, like, you can take a knife blade, you can’t actually insert it between the the bricks. And there was no mortar used, like with the pyramids just a perfect structure, and it was on a fault line, so actually some of the design, the bricks in the building can move, like we do in modern architecture to, to help buildings withstand an earthquake.
And so you have this kind of movement there. Really fun. I know people say it was a lost city, but it wasn’t lost. The Incas knew where it was at. The Spanish didn’t find it, though. So really fascinating. And there’s some… Then there, you had the archaeologists come down, and they actually found it i- in the early 1900s, I believe to, I think it’s a person name will come to me, who,
georgia: who
joe: Indiana Jones was based off of. Hiram Bingham the third , came down and found… rediscovered. Uh, Right.
That’s
right. Yeah, that’s right. Locals knew where it was. The
lorena: the locals were the ones that were taking
him
joe: that’s right.
Yep. A farmer or someone
took him
georgia: [00:16:00] was from
UChicago, right?
joe: I don’t know where he was.
from. I think He was from
Yale. Yeah, he was taking artifacts
georgia: but there- At
lorena: he was American. We did know that.
georgia: We
can call
nick: You could
joe: lot of, like, a lot of, artifacts were… And you’re right, UChicago, they were mostly in the Middle…
I think in
georgia: Oh Middle East- Middle …Asia,
joe: Af- North Africa. But yeah, I mean, a lot of these Af a-artifacts from places were taken without the country’s permission. And so a lot of these artifacts from Peru went to Yale. That’s where
uh, Bingham was
was funded, his kind of funders were from that area.
But yeah, and that,
nick: why we need
lorena: find
someone to fund us so that we can go to see the Nazca Lines.
joe: them. Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. You hear that?
We need a sponsor. Rebel Mole Research field trip.
nick: I- Is
georgia: that, like, a tourist attraction? Because, and how do they protect it with, so that it’s not
joe: That’s a
georgia: up? You know what I mean?
lorena: Well, this is very interesting because there have been a lot of people that went to Peru, [00:17:00] but to all of us Peruvians, we would say this German lady, Reiche-
Reiche.
she was the one that really made it a point to have Peru protect this civilization. She ha- is primarily responsible for that. And thanks to her, the Nazca Lines were recognized by UNESCO
as Peru’s patrimony in, just in 1994. Oh,
georgia: Oh, wow.
joe: Was that the Lady of the Lines or
lorena: the Lady of the Lines.
She actually bought a house
very close to the Nazca Lines and decided to spend her entire life there.
georgia: Oh, wow. And
joe: the lines to protect them, things like that. Yeah, it was really fascinating. Like, I did come across
georgia: Wow. Wait.
lorena: dedicated her entire
nick: She slept on the lines?
Wouldn’t that-
joe: them,
lorena: she,
it was
nick: That didn’t do any damage to it or?
joe: No. Yeah.
lorena: Well, before
she even came around, people were just walking
through everything, not even thinking it
was anything, because how will they know?
joe: Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, ’cause you can’t tell. Like, so it’s just some random, just a
georgia: messed that up. And it’s been there for
2,000 years. Yeah,
joe: Yeah, that’s right.
nick: right. I [00:18:00] mean, that’s- Who
georgia: I, yeah,
joe: no, I, yeah,
that’s
nick: touch it. I’m gonna sleep here. Thank
you
joe: was a mathematician and in, in her own right to, to maybe see that and
georgia: I wonder what brought her there in the first place.
Like, did she know they were there and went… and
lorena: l- she learned,
she learned
that there, there were those Nazca Lines, and it really intrigued her to the point to where she dedicated her entire life. Oh,
joe: Yeah. I mean, she was like a scientist. I mean, like a
lorena: went there … to study the lines, and once she saw the lines herself, she just couldn’t leave Peru.
Right.
Right.
joe: No, really fascinating.
mary: The Lady of the Lines.
Yeah.
joe: yep. She was a German mathematician, came to. Yep.
No, really fascinating. No, I think
georgia: that’s- And that goes to show how just one person can make such a huge difference. One person can.
mary: such a huge difference
joe: Yes.
nick: Yes.
joe: Yeah. But then, I mean, we have just like the pyramids, people go, “Oh, it’s not earthbound humans.”
I know where Nick was going earlier with his [00:19:00] alien
georgia: with his alien- I like
joe: alienation
nick: love the idea of it because-
georgia: Cause you wanna be an alien. I
nick: I am an alien. Thank you,
joe: He’s going to Mars. He already said that. He’s
going to lava
nick: go there and lick
some
georgia: Then you’ll be an alien on their planet. Yeah. Right.
mary: I know it’s said in jest, but I don’t like the idea that anything that is fascinating or interesting that happened a long time ago was done by aliens.
nick: See,
so the reason they do that
is ’cause anyone
mary: know it’s said in jest. Yeah. Yeah.
joe: I
agree. They don’t have
color,
nick: they just go, “Oh, they didn’t do this. This
was
mary: yeah, no
one- Like- How
could they
nick: the what?
mary: Yeah. Yeah. I,
joe: Yeah. So, but
nick: But yes it’s always one of those- Mm-hmm … rooted in very-
joe: sentiment.
mary: yeah,
exactly I
georgia: like the idea of some- I mean, that was,
joe: was,
um, I mean, not the Lilu aside,
but right? That was like Neanderthals at first were thought to be savage and unintelligent and da. But then when it was found that [00:20:00] European, people of European descent had Neanderthal DNA,
mary: Then suddenly …they
joe: very ingenious and social and
georgia: sure. Thanks …
joe: Very, So yeah, to Nick’s point, you get that in, in, in cultures where it’s like, oh yeah, this great thing that was done, mathematical and genius, eh, maybe aliens came down and did that. So it is a little dismissive of
nick: hold on. What do you have over there? Actually, I think I discovered that.
You guys didn’t discover that. I did that. Thank you. I
georgia: thought you were like, “Wait,
what
joe: is that?” I know, right? It’s
georgia: talking about, Nick?”
joe: it’s like, oh, my DNA is,
mary: That’s really good. oh. That
nick: Yeah
that
georgia: some good acting,
joe: I know. Look at Nick. He’s, he’s on
nick: at me,
georgia: Da. Is
mary: this
nick: new
segment? Oh,
are
we going to an ad
break?
georgia: Our new seg-
joe: got a
mary: new
seg- There you go …our, our new
segment is-
joe: here
mary: was this done by aliens? No, it was not.
joe: All right. I’m
gonna, gonna switch from the
very cool and exciting, and hope, hopefully one day I get to go see the Nazca Lines. I’m really inspired. So after [00:21:00] Lorena, she brought this up we were, we had a little art event.
And we’ll probably touch on that a little later, but this came up. I was like, oh, doing the Nazca Lines. And I started, oh yeah, that sounds great, and Peruvian culture sounds great. Just always like to have that. When we talk about science and curiosity, but being curious of culture and things is truly exciting.
And
so I’m gonna put a pin in it ’cause we’re gonna come back and maybe talk a little more about Peruvian culture ’cause there’s some fun things from Peru that I, in my list, I always have a list we can talk about. But I wanna talk about Maybe more controversial are the crop
circles. Yeah. Which
are,
like the modern day… And so generally it’s this phenomenon that in a field typically a cereal crop like wheat, barley canola, corn, you all of a sudden have this pattern form in the middle of acres.
In the middle, you have this huge pattern form of some geometric pattern, some mathematical thing.
nick: [00:22:00] spontaneously
too.
Pretty spontaneously.
joe: there’s been videos where this happens within, like, an hour or two, and it’s just really… And that lends itself to the alien. And I know Nick-
lorena: Theory
that- Right
Nick
nick: Aliens.
joe: Right. Yeah.
Nick, has been waiting
for this, so I’m gonna give it
to So that’s Aliens.
Or
georgia: be some other
joe: more mundane. Or, or just a hoax …
nick: phenomena.
joe: Dun.
georgia: would be a pretty elaborate hoax. I mean-
nick: I mean-
georgia: yeah … that, a pretty well-done hoax.
Well, and you’re
nick: just destroying your own crops at that point, unless it’s already been a bad crop year and you know that it’s gonna be wasted, so they go ahead and do this and they’re like, “Hey, look at this.
Something happened.”
lorena: Well, I personally think that the those circles that were created were almost like a blueprint for the puquios. Hm. ‘Cause, everything if you
plan things
joe: way, right? The crop circles are-
lorena: The crop
joe: circles.
The p- the, what was it again?
lorena: The puquios.
[00:23:00] Puquios.
Yeah.
georgia: Yeah
joe: Oh, go ahead. Go for it. Actually,
nick: Can you go ahead and
give
a little explanation of what puquios are?
lorena: are?
Yeah, we can talk about the puquios. . I would just say that they are like kinda like blueprints to the puquios, because the puquios is perhaps to us Peruvians, the most important part of the Nazca Lines.
I
mean, it’s amazing
that the Nazca Lines have remained in there
for
so many years, but the puquios are pretty much talk about the Nazca people as amazing engineers,
because they
were able
to get water into an area that’s a desert. And so therefore, when the puquios were created, I assume they needed some sort of blueprint, and I feel like those circles that we see are perhaps, blueprints for
that.
Oh,
joe: these irrigation kind
lorena: Yeah. They, Yeah. they
joe: Oh, I see. right,
lorena: of blueprint …a ho- They do have a hole,
joe: know? Right. right. Yeah. So
That water idea, that’s what… That maybe where that comes [00:24:00] from,
that And that’s what… That, that’s what’s
lorena: the main
thing for the Nazca
people, because they live in such extreme
place
where they get no water.
Yeah,
like, like we discussed, it was… Sometimes they would just get one rain a year. So then therefore, that’s why we all said, the a- the, their like aqueduct
engineers, we will say that. …
joe: we were saying
lorena: Yeah. They were
amazing in that craft, and that’s the most important part about the Nazca
Lines. People think the most
important part about the Nazca Lines is the fact that the lines are still there 2,000 years later, but no.
What’s amazing is the fact that they created this underground aqueduct system to be able s- to survive.
Yeah.
And then not only that, but they created these animals to give them as offerings so that they can get rain. Because if you think about the hummingbird, if you think about the monkey, those were tailored to the Amazons, and the Amazon in the part of Peru is where they get a lot of rain.
It’s a humid [00:25:00] place. So they were trying to talk to the gods about, “Let us get some water.” Right.
georgia: And the
lorena: the puquios were these huge circles that had pebbles all around it, and then they created this, How would you say this? Like tunnel. So it’s like tunnels, and then even though the lines are maybe not as deep, but the puquios are very deep down.
There are thousands of pictures where you can see that it’s almost like a… How would you say when the wind rolls around? Tornado. Like a tornado effect, to be able to have, the wind help the water just travel down and then just bring it around the
whole area.
georgia: Wow.
lorena: Mm-hmm.
georgia: Wow.
lorena: And then even nowadays, there’s a lot of puquios that are still working. They’re functioning.
joe: Yeah.
mary: So It’s more, so
it’s more about water than, like- It
was
lorena: about the water.
mary: it was all about water.
lorena: it was for them. It was all about the water, and ultimately that’s why the Nazca people [00:26:00] disappeared, because of the lack of water.
When they brought the water and then did the, they did the exchange with the people that were in the Amazon area, they brought in trees. And so trees were finally growing, the mor- Moringa tree, and then they felt like the tree was, gonna take a lot of their water. In their belief, they decided to cut the trees,
and
then when they cut the trees- their ground didn’t have, was not stabilized anymore by the roots. And then when the El Niño came, so we call it in Peru El Niño, when there’s a lot of water that came, it pretty much destroyed their crops.
joe: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
mary: And
lorena: once the crops were destroyed, there was no tree. So it was ultimately that’s what led to them just either dying or ending their,
mary: Just abandoning it
joe: diminishing. Right. Right.
lorena: Because the civilization that came after them pretty much found them in a weak state.
Yeah. And that’s where they [00:27:00] ended, and that’s where the next Peruvian civilization
georgia: Yes
lorena: came in. Mm-hmm.
joe: That’s really interesting just to… You’re right, the Nazca Lines are amazing for their structure- … aerial view, but these ancient aqueducts, that’s what you’re talking about, this kind of engineering feat to actually drive water into in pre-Inca.
‘Cause you’re right, people think Inca is the,
you Height of Peruvian civilization, and it was, right? It is, yeah. But they had…
they stood on the shoulders of great engineers and mathematicians who had that knowledge to do that. Yeah. It’s really
lorena: and then we were also thought that, a couple of the people who were Nazcas were able to travel to different areas ultimately where the Inca established themselves.
So there were a lot of people who tho- who taught them about this whole aqueduct system that ultimately helped create the Inca Empire, and which is what we still have nowadays.
mary: Mm-hmm.
joe: That’s really cool. I, and then you [00:28:00] can visit that, right? That’s a… Is that a tour site there that you can go on?
lorena: And it is one of the Seven Wonders of the it is a seven, yeah, because it is, right, right. And Machu Picchu is p- I mean, ’cause Machu Picchu was really like I think people think this, but it’s really like a royal kind of palace, right? Is that the
by the Inca Empire, and the Inca Empire
stretched beyond the country of Peru. Right.
joe: right.
lorena: So it took a large chunk of South America.
joe: Right,
mary: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that, that’s,
joe: that. That’s, was, what was all included in that, do you know? I’m trying to think. What countries? Bolivia and was that, or no?
lorena: It was all around the coast, so it had to be Bolivia,
Ecuador.
Argentina,
joe: your your- Yeah. …Peruvian
history, right? My Are you smarter than a peruvian fifth grader?
mary: fifth grader. Right.
georgia: you.
lorena: Oh, thank you.
nick: thank you. No, but
joe: you.
No, but the aqueducts,
right, so they’re, yeah, this is what the re- we do on the Rabbit hole of Research and talk about that, but the aqueducts, we think of the Romans and their aqueducts, and they’re [00:29:00] moving water around, and how clever they were.
This, gets to Nick’s point earlier that, depending on your cultural background, you get credited for things. But these
structures- were
created in the same time and geographically you know- In South America … Thousands of miles apart the Atlantic Ocean apart.
And you had, these technologies. So there were just creative peoples that did this in many societies. And even With the lines in Nazca, which gets a lot of credit, and that’s what we came for to Zeppos. So but you had the, so bringing that to our attention, that’s really- And
if you
lorena: you think about
the Lines of
Nazca itself-
if you think about the ground that we’re talking
about it, it’s pretty much a whole bunch of, like, little
pebbles.
joe: yeah, they cleared it away,
right. That’s
lorena: fist. It’s like
pebbles
everywhere that are red pebbles.
georgia: Mm-hmm.
mary: that are red
lorena: And
we can go there nowadays and just pick up the pebbles and, use our feet to pull like the the sand out, and
then you will eventually
get [00:30:00] to like a yellow-
joe: That’s right. Yep
lorena: like a yellow dirt- Like an exposed ground, yeah
if you
joe: I call it. Yep,
lorena: Yeah,
like a yellow ground.
joe: That’s how these were created.
They just moved- Mm-hmm … the pebbles, these
lorena: they
moved the pebbles around
joe: iron oxide kind of coated pebbles, ’cause I was reading about this, and they just moved that around. And to put this in perspective the Nazca peoples, that was about 500 BC. Mm-hmm. Right. So that was that was their timeline to about 500 AD.
So, a thousand-year span for the civilization, which
mary: is-
joe: A good stretch of time for a civilization to do things, right? I mean, that’s, America’s celebrating 250 years. So we’re- Yeah … we’re a quarter of the way to you know,
lorena: And
joe: a great civilization. And you know what?
As a
lorena: feel
the big pressure because it’s like we think about, all these amazing civilizations that came before us, but then they always say, “Okay, so what are we doing now?”
Mm-hmm.
“So where do we go from now?”
joe: Right.
georgia: Right.
lorena: Yeah. So what are… [00:31:00] So, so, so that just leaves, I am, I don’t live in Peru. I was born and raised in Peru, and I am here in the States. And so there’s always that idea in the back of my head that, as a Peruvian person We have to establish ourselves where we are. Because they always tell us, “If you are able to leave your country, become the ambassador of Peru.”
Mm-hmm.
So then you can teach people about our culture, you can teach people about things, and that’s primarily what I do. So I am a Peruvian artist.
And then I do showcase a lot of the things within my culture in my paintings. That’s why when I paint something, I wanna give you a little glimpse onto the different parts of the civilizations, cultures, things I’ve seen and it’s very important. Like, I just created a piece that was a hummingbird in homage
joe: to the
lorena: to the Nazca
Lines. I’m, I don’t know if you guys have seen it. We were just, I made a donation of this
little
five by five,
and …it
was a hummingbird.
joe: Oh, nice.
lorena: the hummingbird
in homage to the Nazca
joe: Yeah.
mary: think I saw
that. [00:32:00]
georgia: share them
joe: it on the- Yeah,
lorena: sure.
We will share with
joe: the show
mary: Yeah.
lorena: yeah. And I did that as an homage to the Nazca people.
And then every
painting of mine will give you a glimpse into, my culture and then into my ancestors.
joe: I was gonna, I was gonna note that the Roman Empire was about 20-ish BC to 470 AD. So the, the Nazca-
lorena: civilization
joe: actually outspans that. So
their aqueducts. So like I said, we think about these great
engineering feats
being a very European centric kind of thing, ’cause that’s what, we’re taught a lot of that, right? That’s right.
nick: you to
I know, right? That’s right.
joe: but yeah, when you
lorena: I know you mentioned the pyramids
a couple times,
but we
do have pyramids in Peru
as well- Yeah that
have
been proven
to be older than the famous pyramids that you’re
talking about. Older
mary: than the Egyptian pyramids.
Ah,
nick: What, I, I wanna say there’s pyramids all throughout South America, right?
Right. Yeah. And they’ve [00:33:00] been-
lorena: I know they pyramids in Mexico as well, but yes, but as, a- as far as we know, the py- the pyramids that they found in Peru are older than the pyramids that, the famous pyramids that everyone talks about,
so.
nick: And
they all have the general same idea, too, which I always find so cool that it’s- Mm-hmm
having that same structural,
like-
joe: Yep. The pyramid shape is a very stable shape. And to your point, I mean, the Egyptian pyramids 2700 BC-ish, and I think the pyramids in Peru and South America are in that same timeframe.
So it was just one of these things. So if the aliens came down and gave that, they spread the information wide and far to
mary: the- Hey, everybody, we’re
joe: Hey, everybody, we’re gonna be, we’re gonna equalize this whole thing.”
Um-
nick: a nice level, even playing …
field.
georgia: You have a idea or question about the crop circles?
joe: wanna
get back to crop circles.
mary: I was gonna wait [00:34:00] until it came around or- organically, but now that we’re here.
nick: I think that was pretty that we’re here. Dun, dun, dun, dun. So,
mary: since, since we have this time together crop circles have been debunked.
joe: Yeah, there was the, there was a theory that Doug and Dave confession, right? Is, are you seeing that in 1991?
mary: Yeah. That- Is
joe: Is that your thing?
mary: It’s on JStor.
I don’t know whose store
I want to…
…No, I wanna make this,
I wanna make this clear that it’s, I’m not talking, like, there’s crop circles and there’s Nazca Lines.
so Nazca Lines is something completely different. We’re talking about crop circles, and the crop circles that we’ve seen pretty much since the 1970s have been created by humans.
joe: Well, that’s-
Yeah.
hold on. I will push back a little bit- Mm-hmm … because I think the Dave and Doug con- confessions- Mm-hmm
in
’91. I don’t
But they they show
they had been making these crop circles since 1978. Mm-hmm.
And
they then showed how they made the circles with planks and ropes [00:35:00] and- different signaling guides to, I think N- Nick alluded to that. “Hey, over there.
What are you doing?” “Move left, move right.” Right. And they had that, but they also couldn’t account for all the circles made-
mary: Mm-hmm.
joe: Because some of the circles were made under video surveillance. Yeah. They happened within hours. And the Dave and Doug, they, so no crop circle
has been made, the ones that still are, non-hoax, the 20% or so that we can go, “These aren’t hoaxes”-
They happened in a time period that was too fast. Like, no one can create a crop circle that fast, that large- Mm-hmm … and say that it was done this right and intricate, that, that
was there,
lorena: when you were, mentioning the crop circles, I thought you were referring to the Nazca circles, ’cause we do have Nazca circles. Okay. And that’s why I said that would be the blueprint
joe: Oh r- oh, I see. Yeah, right, right. Yeah.
nick: Oh, I thought
you were talking- I
joe: Yeah, took
lorena: that
you were
talking [00:36:00] about actual crop circles. I thought …that
you were calling it crop circles-
nick: Nope.
but
lorena: circles
mary: that are- Nazca circles … part of
the
lorena: circles.
mary: Oh, that’s a different thing. I
apologize for
lorena: that. No.
joe: no, you’re fine.
lorena: because
nick: I believed it. I was
like
lorena: Nazca
georgia: we’re talking about the Nazca circles- Right. And then-
lorena: part of the, I would say,
blueprint to the puquios.
joe: right.
lorena: now it
joe: I get it. Yeah, that’s what I
kept saying. I was like, “Oh, you mean they were the blueprint to the crop circles?”
Right. But yeah, I
get it. I
get… Yeah, yeah, yeah,
lorena: I’m in the topic of
Nazca, my mind …is thinking Nazca.
Yeah. So, I mean, and that,
because I’m Peruvian, anything
you say I always revert it back to Peru. So then you’re talking circles, and so I’m like, “Oh, okay, we’re talking about the Nazca circles, not necessarily crops.”
I apologize for
joe: We’re just bringing you back to England. where…
lorena: That’s fine. We just jumped somewhere else
and nobody told me,
But
georgia: yeah, But so yeah, we
joe: have
lorena: have circles as far as the Nazca
circles, and I believe those circles in the Nazca circles are pretty much like blueprints to the puquios.
… we
georgia: talking [00:37:00] crop circles in,
like, farmland.
Yeah. Yeah, like in America.
Yeah …
lorena: have crop circles in, like, farmland. yes, yes, yes. No,
georgia: was gonna say water really played a big part in the movie Signs.
joe: right, it
did. That’s right, yeah, Yeah.
georgia: left the cups of water- But aliens were- … out? Yeah … water
joe: sensitive. They were, they had
a… Yeah, they
were.
georgia: were. I don’t know.
joe: Yep.
lorena: I don’t
know. Yep.
georgia: But no,
joe: You had… I mean, crop circles are fascinating because in England that’s I referenced that you get crop circles all the time. I’m gonna go to England now. We gotta give England some love, right?
lorena: fine. That’s Fine. I w- I was just trying to follow
you guys, but,
joe: you’re fine. The rabbit holds shift and we just do it. But yeah,
so-
nick: pretty quickly.
We can hop
joe: pretty quickly sometimes. I try to bring it back.
georgia: This
article you
were about it being debunked. Mm-hmm.
Is it because those guys confessed or- Yes … okay.
joe: Oh,
mary: yeah.
The, and, and they
sh- they, yeah, they’re like, “Yeah, it was us.” “This, and this is how we did it.”
joe: Yeah. Okay.
And they went through, and they actually [00:38:00] demonstrated it on, for live media. Yeah. They did a whole thing. But- But still, there were…
georgia: Some that they
joe: that, yeah, they can’t explain,
um, away. So I think it was like, I think the belief is like 20% of crop circles are legit. They don’t understand how they were made. Like, how fast they were done, the complexity of it, the mathematical, Fibonacci kind of patterns. It’s just the sophistication.
And then the plants, because they’re done in crops, u- unlike the desert, because they’re done in crops and things like that.
georgia: But the
lorena: crop
circles is, are dated to what year? To wh- I think they Around
georgia: I think they first noticed that about in the ’70s.
joe: The, yeah. Oh. That’s exactly right. It’s a modern
phenomenon. Yeah.
yeah. ’70s, ’80s, that was
it. Okay. In England, I think England- was like the place where
lorena: They
first found them? Oh, okay.
joe: right. Yep. And now it’s like over 70 different [00:39:00] countries have had. Wow. But it’s all in these crop species.
mary: So-
joe: Wheat- Because
georgia: ‘Cause it’s all tall
joe: canola, right?
yeah, corn. So right, you have tall grasses, and then the plants aren’t smushed, so it’s not like someone trampled them.
Like the, kinda the leaves and the stalks are broken in a certain way that it’s like something else happened to depress the plants.
nick: I do wonder if it was just- the start of like a tornado that didn’t happen
for some of them.
Like-
lorena: I
mean
it’s-
georgia: that’s-
joe: yeah. I
nick: yeah …I don’t know.
I have no evidence behind
joe: don’t know. Where are you– Did you look this up or are you just
nick: kinda- No, that was just me spitballing. I’m quick from the hip here, buddy. But let’s, let’s-
take it
mary: But let’s pivot a little bit back to, I mean, the Nazca. I mean, I wonder why like Nazca Lines get conflated a bit with cr- crop circles
lorena: I don’t know.
georgia: I think because you can view them aerial, like in
joe: they’re
geoglyphs, right? So you’re just gonna look at [00:40:00] geoglyphs and throw them all in the same kind of-
lorena: Category … category-
joe: there and not take cultural, historical, kind of- Context
context
in there. But yeah, that’s, ’cause geoglyphs are just large designs made on the ground.
lorena: But
you know, there’s a big belief that you can only see the Nazca Lines from the air, and that’s not true. ‘Cause you can always see it from the mountain too. Oh,
right. So
joe: Put you up on elevation, right? I mean, that is elevation, so that’s the same.
lorena: So you can- Oh,
joe: give the same idea.
lorena: You
can almost see it that way
too.
Think that someone could’ve gone up there and somehow, you know- Mm-hmm … See what they were doing and go back and forth. Who knows?
joe: That’s… All right. I mean, but we don’t have technology.
It’s not like you can call them down. So to make that journey and then to move a few pebbles, and then go back up. Hey, you know what? And you could graph it out mathematically figure it out, make a graph. It’s like an art class. It’s like you wanna draw a picture but make it larger. You divide [00:41:00] it up into a grid, and then you make a larger portion of the grid, and you keep going through.
lorena: and it’s nice that you, isn’t,
and it’s nice that you mention art, because there was also a belief that it was just an art expression as well. So it was them trying to express themselves artistically.
mary: Mm-hmm. Yep.
joe: I was gonna say, I mean, part of my list was that there are other countries in South America, Bolivia. You had mentioned that the Peruvian empire had stretched much further, but Bolivia had these kind of lines the Sajama Lines. I looked up there.
The Paracas Candelabra kind of lines. So these large etched figures in the hillsides facing the Pacific Ocean. In Chile, you also figures that were etched into the ground.
lorena: The Paracas was another civilization that was happening at the same time
Nazca- Yeah the Nazca …was
happening. And Paracas is also considered another Peruvian civilization.
Mm-hmm.
[00:42:00] So,
joe: I mean,
as a Peruvian empire, that’s group. Brazil, Bolivia. You had the Amazon geoglyphs that I mentioned earlier that they found as
lorena: And then that’s another thing,
in Peru
they always talk about the Amazon, and, the Amazon is part of Peru and
it’s part of Brazil as well.
But the Amazon River starts in Peru and …it
ends in Brazil. So there,
there has been a
lot of conflict wondering, like, who does it belong to? Does it belong to- The country where it starts or does it belong to
the country
where it
joe: ends?
Country where it ends, right.
mary: Yeah.
Yeah.
joe: Mm-hmm. At one point in time it probably was all one country, and then it got split. Yeah. Right,
lorena: Correct. Yeah.
joe: We can move to Asia. I mentioned Kazakhstan and their geoglyphs, so they also have it, and it’s been referred to as the Nazca of Kazakhstan.
Really? Yeah. So they have 260 colossal figures, crosses, rings, squares,
lorena: they discovered some geoglyphs
too here in the States.
Yeah.
joe: They have, yeah.
lorena: any of my, American friends can,
you know, speak on it
joe: a little? It,
it’s not [00:43:00] anything-
mary: I
georgia: I
don’t, I think. It’s if anything
joe: it came up in, I believe, California. They have geoglyphs are large figures in the Colorado Desert near Blythe, California.
I found that they have human figures about 171 feet long made by Native American cultures
georgia: also a desert,
joe: also a desert. Also a desert that you have that in. And then in Iowa, Wisconsin,
georgia: Iowa,
joe: …about 200, uh, in Iowa-
lorena: And you this is, this is something that, I would
love, you
joe: Mary you, I see you shaking your head. Did
mary: Oh, no, I was shaking and nodding my head in agreement. Yeah.
joe: And these
are actually positive. So, the Nazca Lines are negatives. So they’re flat. Yeah. And then you have positive,
which
lorena: almost flat and concaved into the ground
joe: And so the ones in Iowa and Wisconsin are these piled up structures that would form. And a lot of, I think that they’re associated with the Ho-Chunk Nation, that might have done these designs and made those. [00:44:00] And then in Ohio, you also have like a giant snake.
So still in research on this about, because it was so pervasive throughout cultures around the world
lorena: You know what?
And I think it’s very important because, I live here in the States now, and I would love to hear all these things from, my friends who are from here that can, educate me on your culture, on your things,
joe: Well, I don’t think this is something that…
I
georgia: don’t think
nick: is more
native,
georgia: about
lorena: But
it would be nice
if they did- because
that’s a, that’s
something that we can have
in
joe: Reach out to some people.
lorena: Talk to me and tell me about it, and I’d be “
like, Oh, you know what? We have the Nazca Lines,” and therefore,
georgia: know,
Right … There’s, yeah, some things
nick: probably wanna go to a reservation
…and
they
will end up having more information. But going outside of a res, you’re not gonna find
joe: And, and-
nick: all that many people that have a lot of
joe: And I would say also that, maybe not.
A lot of those cultures have, because they got moved, the Trail of Tears, they got moved off of
nick: of them did get moved
joe: [00:45:00] actual land and their home country, and they were moved to other parts of America with faulty treaties and things like that So again, not to get political and all that, but it’s like, know-
nick: And just getting straight up-
joe: where, right, and so they lose their language. So that, that happened. It, the enslaved Africans that came lost their language. Now you have,
georgia: reeducation tools
joe: Native Americans losing
nick: lost so many of them so
joe: These structures that were created might be lost.
So you’re asking, especially in American culture, like, oh, say these things,
nick: The- They’re still getting discovered America were from Europe, right? So, Europe came and colonilized colonialized America. And so when you’re saying, “Hey, teach me your, the culture of America as a country who was here,” those people might not know that because that’s, as Nick is saying, you have to find different people.
joe: So, yeah. that’s a
lorena: thing,
joe: is. Yeah, no, that’s right. That’s right. I choose to [00:46:00] be-
lorena: I choose to be, an ambassador for my
country. So I’m
sure, …I mean,
I mean, I just met him, but, …you guys know me, and then when you
guys
have a conversation with me, I’m just always trying to throw in there like, “Oh, I’m Peruvian.
You know what? do you know
about this?”
mary: And like
that.
lorena: Try that.”
joe: I, think, what would happen is that I would talk about growing up in Philadelphia, like, and the history that’s there and the birthplace of America, and that would be
lorena: fine, and that
joe: Georgia from Arizona and Colorado in the Southwest.
And that’s, Nick
Northwest Indiana and Chicago.
So talking about that, Mary- and actually, Mary, where, where, what is your… Are you from this area? Sorry.
mary: area? Sorry.
nick: I’m
from…
lorena: Well,
I
georgia: was born in Minnesota. Okay. But
mary: I
grew up in Southwest Virginia in Ro- Okay
in a place near Roanoke, Virginia.
joe: Okay, Roanoke. Oof, that’s,
mary: Not Roanoke Island. Okay.
But Roanoke Island is on the coast. Roanoke, Virginia is in the Blue Ridge Mountains.
joe: Mountains. Okay. Is that the famous Roanoke with all of [00:47:00] the paranormal. Right, the
disappearance of the-
mary: Oh, the Croatan stuff?
joe: Yeah. right,
mary: Oh, Roa- Roanoke Island is on the coast. Okay.
joe: Oh, so that’s…
Okay.
I see. Yeah.
on the coast. You just got the same town name.
mary: yeah, ex- Well, yeah, that’s called Roanoke Island, but Roanoke i- is is a city in the Blue Ridge Mountains. It’s very, it’s, it’s,
a few hours away from the
joe: You’re just like “It’s Roanoke-
Island
mary: Yeah, it, Roanoke,
joe: The other Roanoke.
mary: yeah, the
Star
City of the South.
Oh, wow. So that’s where I, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you go up to Mill Mountain, there’s a giant neon star, and you can hang out and- Maybe
lorena: we can go someday.
mary: it’s a
great,
it’s, I-
joe: not the paranormal
Roanoke.
mary: Well, exa- That’s where I’m going … I think I’d rather, I’d
rather, yeah, I’d rather, I think I’d
rather go to the Roanoke City the city of Roanoke and
lorena: leave it up to you, Mary- I would
love- … to take us to the nice places in your area.
Yeah.
mary: Well, I, you know what? I haven’t lived there in about 25 years. 30 years now.
joe: nice areas.
Are there nice areas? You’re
lorena: it
mary: Yeah.
Oh, there
you go,
yeah, but I know
more [00:48:00] places around here now, I think, so yeah, there’s that. Yeah.
joe: No, I think y- you’re right. I think exploring. We
talk
georgia: And understanding where we’re from and understanding our ancestors, that’s something that a lot of people don’t.
joe: I think the other thing in America I wanna point out is that understanding who was here before us. I mean, you pointed out in Peru that you have an understanding that Incas weren’t the start, that there were civilizations before that. People came before us.
And
nick: there’s so many people here in America that don’t- That’s right. understand that
or choose to not
know that part of
georgia: know that part of history.
joe: yeah. So-
georgia: And that is
nick: It’s sad, but the history is still there
lorena: I, no, I know there’s a lot of history everywhere. But, , I think it’s up to the people- Right … to let us know who, the people who are not from here, about your history, because that’s what we’re trying to do. I know I’m …not from here, and I come here, and I’m trying to give you guys, [00:49:00] this, this vision of my culture and my country.
mary: Absolutely. And well, let’s talk about the offerings for a second. Can we? Oh, yes. Available at Jose’s Family Restaurant. Ding.
lorena: downtown Highland,
the only Peruvian restaurant in Northwest Indiana, and you guys should come and check it out, 2934 Highway Avenue, Highland, Indiana
georgia: Highway Avenue,
lorena: Okay. We’ll
joe: Love it. We’ll put that in the show notes and have
that there. And I was gonna say, you brought up food. I think food and culture go together, and I just wanna… People, we go and we eat things in our culture, but the potato, the tomato, quinoa, coca
lorena: Right.
joe: And I was I saw this and the guinea pig-
lorena: pig. Yeah. Those are all
Peruvian. Oh. And I’ll tell you
joe: a guinea pig as
food, not as a pet, because in America a lot of people… Is that true, right?
lorena: It is It is very true. It is very true and it’s very sad to for me to even say this, but in Peru we do grow [00:50:00] guinea pigs as a source of food. Yeah. Right.
joe: I mean,
we,
nick: I mean, that kind of
lorena: And I don’t,
joe: In America we
eat a lot of animals, so don’t be… it’s like,
mary: feel bad about
joe: a surp- I, I didn’t know that. I really didn’t know that till I was doing my
lorena: guinea pig, the guinea pig has also been used for rituals.
joe: Yeah.
That’s
lorena: in my culture
when you know somebody, you have a… When somebody gets sick in our Peruvian household, what we do is we use a guinea pig, and we offer it.
joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
lorena: So we will do
our praying,
and we will rub it against your body, and then eventually the guinea pig will take your sickness away from you, and then it will die. So it’s a sacrifice. So we are a culture big on sacrifice.
And then I’ll give you another fact now that we’re talking about that. I know I have a lot of friends here in America, and they love beef jerky.
joe: Mm-hmm. Yes.
georgia: And
lorena: you know beef jerky was a Per- is a Peruvian thing?
mary: Oh, okay.
No, I didn’t.
joe: Really? Yeah.
And
lorena: the word jerky came from Quechua, which is charqui. [00:51:00] We know it as charqui.
georgia: Oh, yeah.
lorena: Yeah, so when a lot of people offer me a beef jerky, I’m like, “Oh, thank you.” Yeah.
georgia: And
joe: then you have, is it a Day of Potato?
lorena: Yeah, we do have
…over f- 400 different
varieties of
potato.
mary: That’s right.
lorena: if anything, we are the
potato
joe: right. That’s right.
georgia: Wow.
joe: And so I have a garden out and one thing I do is heirlooms. And just to clarify what a heirloom is in plant language, an heirloom breeds true. And so if you take a heirloom plant and you actually collect seed from it, you will get the same plant from it. So that’s what’s considered a heirloom versus a hybrid plant, that if you grow it and you plant it the next season, you will get a combination of the parents- A
mary: hybrid … into it
lorena: And
joe: that’s what’s called a F1, then you get the F2s. And so that… And then you can breed it true. If you keep crossing it with itself,
mary: Mm-hmm.
joe: it would breed itself true and become a heirloom. And so [00:52:00] in, in Peru the potato cultivars , people are going back to. And so in history, we think of the Irish and potatoes- In the I- in the potato famine.
And what happened there was they had a monoculture. And so that means that they just grew one cultivar of potato. And so if a disease comes through, then all your potatoes, you lose it. Mm-hmm. If you have a multicultural agricultural practice, which in South America, and particularly in Peru. You would then have this case where you have all these cultivars . And then, so if one disease comes through, you have other cultivars that would keep thriving. And then when the disease passed, you can reintroduce that cultivar there. So,
lorena: is very true
joe: in, in America, we do a lot of monoculture gar- farming practices.
And if a disease comes through, you might hear, “Oh, corn this year is down,” or, “This is down.” And that’s because these crops that we grow are all ones that were bred and selected for particular traits and features that, that help[00:53:00]
mass agriculture.
lorena: But we will never be down because we
have thought about that- That’s right … ahead of time.
joe: agricultural practices are really key and come from… So when we think about the engineering and architectural Nazca Lines, aqueducts, but agriculturally, that’s really… That’s right. Yep. That’s right. That’s right.
Peru is really well known for potatoes … Sorry, a little aside there about,
lorena: I know
joe: there. But it is something to geek out about, and I knew that from, potato, tomato. And
other
other thing, tomato, potato, tobacco, they’re all in the nightshade family.
mary: Oh, yeah. So
joe: that’s eggplant. They all are they grow, they’re all tropical plants. They all grow in this family. And so actually when European settlers came to North America, South America, they were afraid to eat
tomatoes because they knew the nightshade family in Europe
was a poisonous plant. And so when it came to the New World tomato was like, “Whoa, we That.”
That’s right. Yeah.
That’s right. That’s right.
lorena: And in Peru, [00:54:00] we, us Peruvians, I mean, I cook every day. And so I have been taught by my grandma, like my mother and my grandmother, that when we actually deal with tomatoes, we don’t eat the seeds.
Mm-hmm.
joe: Mm-hmm. Interesting.
lorena: Really interesting to me that when I go to different restaurants that are not Peruvian, that they will cut the tomato and serve it to you with the seed, because that is a big no-no for… We don’t do that.
mary: Oh,
joe: no harm eating the seeds of tomato.
lorena: nowadays, it’s not. But you know, this is something that has been ingrained in our mind …because it’s supposed to be considered poisonous.
joe: be considered poisonous.
Mm-hmm.
lorena: So therefore
if
you go to a Peruvian
restaurant and you find a seed, they will refund your money because they should know better then. Yeah. Yeah.
joe: Yeah, no we’re coming to the end of this. We mentioned some movies, Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull and specifically mentioned the Nazca Lines. That was part of the, there was a clue or something in that movie. It wasn’t one of my favorite of the movies.
But they did have the Nazca Lines in there, and it was [00:55:00] mentioned there.
mary: Out on a Limb, I think, has the Nazca Lines. Yeah. Did you ever see that e- the TV movie? Did you ever see that?
lorena: Which one?
mary: Out on a Limb.
lorena: No. it was,
mary: it
wa- they they took Shirley MacLaine’s memoir- where
she gets really into reincarnation and everything like that. And one of the things she d- ends up going… I- and I didn’t connect it at the first bit. There’s actually, a scene in the TV movie- Oh … where she’s flying over, and she’s seeing the Nazca Lines from up above.
lorena: No, I
didn’t see
it, Mary.
Yeah. Just so you know, I when I grew up in Peru, I grew up in extreme poverty.
So I never… I grew up in the streets. I never had a TV or anything like that. So therefore, even now when I live here, I don’t watch TV or anything like that. But I did see something here that caught my eye. That’s another Peruvian reference, if I may talk about it.
joe: Please, go for it.
Straight
lorena: from me, there’s a yellow book that says Tupac.
Mm-hmm. Okay.
Did you know that rapper [00:56:00] Tupac was named after a Peruvian person?
joe: I did not know
lorena: Oh,
that’s a nice fact for you to know. Yeah. Yeah. So we have this person called Tupac Amaru in Peru, and he was named after Tupac.
joe: Wow.
lorena: Mm-hmm. Really
cool.
Very
mary: So Lore- Lorena is pointing to one of the books on- This is
lorena: that is
mary: o- on the, in the
basement Studios.
joe: Georgia had
georgia: Yeah, he was at the library. I think he was at your library too.
mary: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
georgia: Yeah.
lorena: was at the library. Yeah, but- I think he was at your library too.
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like Tupac, T-U-P-A-C, is a Peruvian name.
Tupac
georgia: we could take a picture of the-
joe: Yeah, we can put that in the
georgia: the show notes … I don’t know
put
joe: that in the show notes.
So
georgia: we were talking about some, several movies-
joe: Ba. Yes
georgia: that featured either Crop circles or other
joe: other Yeah, I mean, the only one with the Nazca Lines was the Indiana Jones
georgia: And the one that Mary
mary: went into TV movie. The TV movie. Yeah. [00:57:00]
joe: Yep,
georgia: really there hasn’t been much else It hasn’t shown up in pop culture as much or- No, I,
joe: you have… I think like the crop circles have been more of the ones, like X-Files had a number of episodes with them in.
nick: and then there’s a new movie coming out in July
called Disclosure Day, and it looks really interesting. It has to do with aliens and crop circles and, I’m excited to see it.
I don’t-
lorena: What is it centered on? Does it say?
nick: I believe it’s gonna be probably America. Yes. But, In
a
joe: corn field in the Midwest.
georgia: Exactly.
nick: Oh, it is
directed by Steven Spielberg
joe: Hey. Oh, that’s right. That’s- Yeah … that’s that movie. Oh, wow, yeah.
nick: where
georgia: and where is this
joe: that? Yeah,
Yeah. Or does
georgia: yeah. Or does it say?
nick: it doesn’t really say. now did Spielberg in Close Encounters of the Third Kind, did that have like, there was… I know the pattern things, but did that have drawings and shapes and the aliens are trying to communicate? I mean, kinda like, [00:58:00] Arrival too had that with patterns and- Yeah. Right, right. Yeah, that idea. Yeah. Yeah. ‘Cause I thought this, the movie, what was it called?
joe: Disclosure. Disclosure. Isn’t that, is that related to-
nick: Close
joe: Close Encounters? yeah.
Kind Like the unofficial sequel or prequel or
nick: Yeah, it’s dealing with the government cover-ups- Right … and all that, and, Government. Always government cover-ups.
georgia: Always.
nick: Yeah. Yeah, it’s gonna be June 12th.
joe: June 12th. All right, this is, this will come out two days before that, so-
lorena: Nice.
mary: We’ll
joe: all ready for,
mary: And
Knowing? Was that
joe: And Knowing? Was that with Nicolas Cage
nick: walked out of that film, so I can’t answer anything about
that.
georgia: just really disliked it?
nick: was
so bored during it. That’s the only movie I’ve ever walked out of and gotten my money back for.
georgia: And it, did, and that was a Nicolas Cage movie? The trailer came out.
nick: Yes, it was. with his very bad hair
joe: And it was like, um, encoded messages left in the
ground.
georgia: [00:59:00] see it, yeah.
joe: It was
like, yeah, a whole thing.
mary: bad.
nick: good. Yeah.
joe: You know how I feel about Nic Cage, so,
georgia: Would you have stayed?
joe: enjoy
nick: have stayed? I
joe: I
don’t know, I watched a video.
so I guess I would’ve. Yeah, interesting, there was a few video games that popped up on my list. Nick’s thinking,
will I get them?
nick: I’m gonna say it was…
Oh, man.
I actually don’t think I have any off the top of my head for this one.
Well,
lorena: had
joe: one
was
Shadow of the Colossus.
Oh. And the whole- That one is B. Yeah, the landscape itself was like a geoglyph is what I, in my research done. ’cause I
kind of
nick: I always thought they were
joe: I would say that is essentially,
like-
lorena: Yeah.
Like
nick: just ’cause of how big they
were
and, moving
joe: Destiny.
georgia: Okay. Yeah.
nick: I can see
that.
Like it’s, yeah
joe: Then had Horizon Zero [01:00:00] Dawn.
nick: Horizon Zero Dawn. That
was That
joe: the ancient civilizations left enormous ground level structure signals that,
nick: the- Which I that one’s kind of a stretch ’cause the ancient civilization is our current day in that.
lorena: that.
Well,
joe: I mean, if it’s- So-
If 100 years in the future- Yeah
then that would be, we would be ancient. Exactly.
georgia: I mean-
nick: but
georgia: like-
nick: saying that they were messages of, yeah.
What
other ones you
joe: That’s it. My re- that was my video game. You’ve played all these?
nick: Yes,
actually I have.
joe: I love this
mary: Oh, awesome.
nick: Really? Awesome. What
joe: He’s awesome. He’s there.
nick: they? Like, what? Shadows of Colossus. I- it’s an old one, but I
would highly …recommend anyone
to go back and try it out.
joe: No, it came up ’cause I, I do this like cultural thing to try to find references to the topic in pop culture and see if I can tether it to it, and so yeah, it’s always awesome to to get that.
No we’ve covered a lot of ground. No pun intended.
nick: intended.
mary: you
lorena: We have.
nick: Yeah.
joe: So,
Yeah, I wanna just, I think we [01:01:00] touched a lot about Peruvian culture.
Yeah. So I wanna give
lorena: ultimately, …I would like
to know what is your belief? Why
do you
joe: What was my belief? Yeah,
lorena: everyone’s. Yes. What do you believe… Why do you believe these lines were created by Nazca people?
‘Cause now we know that they were created by
actual people.
joe: Yeah. Yeah, we’re gonna not
lorena: So to Nick about
aliens … w- I know it’s prove it that it wasn’t
created by aliens.
georgia: I
joe: that- what,
lorena: what is your belief?
georgia: belief?
joe: I don’t, I’m gonna say something here that we talk about time travel and would we go back and explore.
And as people of color, there’s not a lot of time points in history that are friendly- Right … At times to people of color, right? And so,
mary: Octavia Butler wrote a whole boo-
book about it. Yeah.
nick: right. Yeah.
joe: Yeah. And so I, I- I’m
georgia: Not advised. I
joe: I think about
that,
and when we have conversations like this and someone like Lorena, [01:02:00] you come on and you talk about the Peruvian culture, and we, I dig in my own research.
I’m like, that would be, it would be interesting to go back, and I can’t speak the language or anything, but just to see what was going on. Mm-hmm. I think that would be fascinating. So I’m deflecting a little bit, tethering it
to- other episodes.
nick: That was a-
So ba-
georgia: you’re gonna time travel, and then you’ll come back
joe: Yeah, I just think it’s so fascinating, and I just I’m gonna go back to that I think us humans are just really ingenious and creative, and if not constrained by the society they’re in or given the freedoms…
I know, Nick we’ll talk offline. But I think that the potential there is just so great that, we can create so many great things, and we don’t have to attribute that to aliens per se and think about this in that way. But it’s just we can do really great things if we put our minds to it.
lorena: I, agree. So
joe: I just love that. So that’s [01:03:00] my take on it. I’ll leave it to the rest of the crew to give their opinions,
lorena: see what
Mary thinks. What do you think, Mary?
mary: What do I think about Nazca Lines? The Nazca
lorena: The Nazca Lines.
mary: I don’t have, I don’t have an opinion on them actually. I, I-
joe: a hard time about pushing.
mary: Yeah. I, no I think that I think that it’s it is beautiful to, to look back and see what what h- humans have done, h- have done with, and w- we tend to think that
If we don’t have the things that we h- are available to us today, then the things that happened in the past are impossible.
georgia: And
mary: it’s not true. It’s, yeah there, I, and, but don’t know enough on it to comment on it, but I know it was definitely not aliens.
So yes. I know aliens. No, it’s not
aliens. Aliens did it. Yes. Yeah, it we should we should give our ancestors more credit.
lorena: Correct.
joe: Yes. Our stupid ancestors.
nick: They didn’t have
joe: They didn’t [01:04:00] have TVs. They didn’t have TVs,
mary: Wi-Fi or anything. Or
joe: that stuff. Yeah, that’s right.
They know
nothing about the… They
mary: Oh, well, maybe they do. It did land a
long time ago.
joe: they
mary: Okay. All right, go ahead. Oh, sorry.
lorena: do you think,
Georgia?
georgia: Georgia? I,
nick: You had time too. That
joe: was asleep
nick: of anything.
georgia: no, I really, I can’t really comment either.
Like,
I don’t have a lot of background knowledge about-
mary: That’s how I feel. I feel like I
can’t really, com- It was interesting. Yeah, I know.
georgia: I But we have an expert here. We have a do you have
left? I think it’s amazing, and it’s kinda mind-boggling. But I really don’t know, and I don’t know the reason why, but it makes sense to me what you said about that, that was a blueprint for, And,
lorena: offering,
you
mary: know, Mm-hmm so that they
lorena: get more
water.
georgia: Right. Mm-hmm. And that makes a lot of sense to me.
mary: Right. [01:05:00] In
such a, a dry, arid climate, to-
georgia: Do you have anything
joe: But
I, you could, you also, that’s an artistic expression where humans are ar- artistic- Right … people, and that’s that creative, the creative side that I’m talking about.
Sorry, I have to jump back in here.
nick: No, it’s
fine. Okay,
joe: Nick, sorry. Go ahead.
georgia: sorry. Go
nick: I’m gonna go ahead and say that I think that there was an actual reason for them at the time.
joe: And
nick: Yes, artistic creation is a thing, especially throughout all history, but I do think that- … there was something more that they were trying to convey to the people.
joe: But artistic expression is a really big thing. I mean, I don’t wanna-
nick: No,
I’m not downplaying. I’m
saying that I think it kind of had to do with- …something,
at that massive scale- … protection …there was something that they were trying to lead you to or away from. Yeah, I think. Yes. Like, you’re not using-
lorena: maybe bring to us … sure. Mm-hmm.
nick: It wasn’t just- for [01:06:00] shits and giggles. It was-
joe: But, mean, it could be both, right?
nick: It could,
joe: use- It could be both … I mean, the Statue of Liberty.
But
like- It’s a
huge beacon that has a very meaningful context that we have.
So big things can have artistic value, but also- Exactly. You know-
But they have practical,
Yeah, yeah. Right. Exactly.
nick: Exactly. And that’s what I would say
we don’t know the m- the idea of the message.
You’re speculating.
Exactly. It’s all speculation right now.
joe: Yeah, what are you
speculating?
What’s your Speculation.
georgia: 2,000 years later.
nick: 2,000 years
later.
Aliens. I know that’s what you wanted. Sorry. No,
mary: waiting for
it. I, I don’t,
joe: I don’t, I, don’t think- …I
don’t
think it’s aliens.
nick: But I,
as I said, I
joe: because, Oh, I
was gonna say, the reason I don’t think it’s aliens. Mm-hmm. Right? We give aliens too much credit.
nick: Oh, for everything.
joe: Right?
And the problem is that, in, in my mind I know I’m not the first person to express this opinion, but if we take humans as an example. When humans go [01:07:00] to some place new-
Mm-hmm
they don’t go there with flowers and kumbaya. They go and they take over, and they go to take the resources. They go and they extract.
If we think of South America, how much extraction happened from South America to Europe, the wealth
so that’s the point. If aliens came, I don’t think they’re gonna be like, “Hey, guys, you know what? Let me teach you guys some complex mathematical formulas and how to build crazy structures to communicate with
us.” Mm-hmm.
I think they’re coming here, they travel all this way, they’re gonna take the goods and leave, right?
I mean, I, I love
lorena: trying to go. I’m not trying to go. I’m trying to
joe: Yeah, right.
That’s right.
So that’s my anti-alien view. Okay. I’m not gonna-
georgia: Okay. On that note.
nick: get the
georgia: you off, Joe.
joe: okay, on that note I’m gonna leave it. Co-hosts, do you guys have anything you ask or anything? I
lorena: to
end this up. I just wanna say one word: [01:08:00] Tupananchiskama, which is a Quechua word, and it means until life meet us again. Because in Quechua language, we don’t have a say that would say, “Okay, bye or goodbye,” so we would say tupananchiskama.
nick: Tu-
lorena: Two? Tupananchiskama
nick: tupananchiska- kama
lorena: Which means until life bring us together again.
georgia: again. I like
lorena: We
mary: I like that a lot.
I
georgia: do too.
nick: If anyone has any questions about Peru and stuff, is there a way for them to ask you or?
lorena: or? Of
course. Please come find me. I am Lorena Salinas and I wish for anyone that has any questions about Peru to ask me, and I will give you my knowledge based on my experience because I was born and raised in my country and I am very passionate about sharing my culture, sharing my experiences sharing my language.
nick: Very
cool
georgia: if you’re in the area, you can visit.
joe: You got a fabulous restaurant with great Peruvian food. Mm-hmm. Had dinner there [01:09:00] and drinks and just great.
So why don’t you tell the folks listening, get them excited.
lorena: to them a little bit about what I’m bringing as far as my Peruvian culture. Yeah.
joe: Definitely. Thank
lorena: so you
know, I am Lorena Salinas. Once again, I am a Peruvian artist. I paint. I can do many different styles. I love a- abstract work, but I can do realistic work as well. I have a restaurant here in downtown Highland, Indiana, 2934 Highway Avenue, and it’s Jose’s Family Restaurant.
You will be able to enjoy truthful Peruvian cuisine because my father is a chef, my mother is a pastry chef, and we do have Peruvian spirits, so you can try Peruvian beer, Peruvian wine, Peruvian whiskey. And if you let me know ahead of time that you’ll be there, I will meet you there- … to guide you through the whole Peruvian experience
joe: thank you. And we’ll put links to Jose’s, and we’ll put links to any [01:10:00] art shows you have and things like that.
We’ll share that and blast it out, friends of the podcast. And that one’s just been really-
a great conversation. I think we, we went down a lot of different rabbit holes,
mary: For sure
joe: but yeah. So thank you again for joining us and
sharing your culture
lorena: Thank you for having me,
joe: everyone out there, you have me, Joe.
nick: You got Nick.
joe: We’ve got Nick.
Georgia.
We’ve got Georgia. We’ve got Mary. We’ve got Mary
nick: And we went down some
holes
joe: there, stay safe, stay curious. Try some Peruvian spirits and food
georgia: At
mary: right. Ding, ding. Yes. Or a Peruvian restaurant
lorena: That’s
mary: you
if you
joe: Peruvian restaurant near you if you don’t live in
mary: right.
lorena: in
joe: We love y’all. Bye-bye.
nick: Bye-bye.
lorena: Cheers. Adios.
Cheers. Adios.
